Why didn't Aragorn take the Oathbreakers to Mordor?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- In this video, we look at the Oathbreakers, and look at some of the potential reasons why Aragorn decided to release them at Pelagir instead of taking them to Minas Tirith and beyond.
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My theories at least in the movies:
1. They are powerless in Mordor and a chance to be corrupted and tormented.
2. Their power can only go so far. The mountain being their source. (They cannot reach Mordor going back to number 1)
For the book, we share thoughts on this. They were not a force that could kill, and they would just cause chaos on both sides. For the movies, Aragorn had to weigh the fact that these powerful spirits were only begrudgingly following his orders. After the battle, they practically DEMAND to be released. What if Aragorn had said no? This spirit army could simply run through his like they did the enemy. Yes, they'd still be damned, but do you think Aragorn could really chance that? Plus, Aragorn is a man of honor. After the battle, they did not have a clear path of action yet. They had not decided to march on Mordor, and could still have just set siege to keep Sauron's army bottled up. So in that moment, not knowing what was next, he simply went with what he felt was right and cut them loose.
This is a good point. Aragon had no true power to control them. The spirits only RELUCTANTLY followed his orders because of the hope Aragon would release them from their curse.
And still I don't like how they used the army of the dead in the movies. They are jhust so all powerful, it really takes away from the sacrifice of the others during the battle.
@@Frankje01 I agree
thank you for spelling loose correctly and not spelling lose instead
What if Aragorn aked them to help him one more time and they could decide if continue helping him or be released from the oath...?
Also imagine the sheer willpower it took Aragon to control the Dead which inflicted terror upon everything around
There's actually specific text regarding this:
"But when the dawn came, cold and pale, Aragorn rose at once, and he led the Company forth upon the journey of greatest haste and weariness that any among them had known, save he alone, and only his will held them to go on. No other mortal Men could have endured it..."
Friends and foes alike flee them as they travel, and Aragorn is able to keep the ghost-army back from going on ahead of them...
You forgot to mention one of Sauron’s powers was necromancy and telepathy. Sauron could have potentially telepathic communication to the Oath breakers and struck a new deal of raising them from the dead (possibly against their will) and could turn on Aragorn. I think that might be a chance Aragorn wasn’t willing to take
A fan fiction about Aragorn the dark Lord of the undead would have been interesting.
The witch king has a ring of power and a sorcerer in his own right. Simple. That's the answer. If he can't even temporarily sway a cursed tainted ghost army- he can do nothing. Even in the film version they only attack after he is dead i think?
I was going to say Aragorn should have said I'll hold your oath fulfilled once you have driven every orc from Gondor, but after listening to your explanation, I changed my mind.
Would this mean the only way people died when taking the paths of the dead was they had a heart attack
didnt knew Orcs feared ghosts... thanks man nice lore
like u said he could have taken them to Pellenor but it would not conclude the battle itself, just delay it
also, if Aragorn in a speech in front of everyone calmed his forces down ( wich is way possible like in the battle of the Black Gate wich they are beeing surrounded by thousands and thousands of orcs, WICH IS REALLY REALLY SCARY ) I think it wouldnt be that of a problem to the free peoples, they love Aragorn and would surely fight alongside him and his ghost army.
Fear is in your mind, its psychological, you may just need a guidance to bypass it in your head :)
I just think they didnt come to Pellenor for any reason in particular... and most of the reasons are valid for sure bro... but for me they didnt came just becuse Tolkien didnt want the story written that way... wich would take most of the fighting and the development of the characters we love in the story to ruin... not becuse they couldnt come, if they are cursed for 3000 years, they could definitly help 1 more day or 2 ;)
WOW!!!! Before this I was 100% SURE that he just made a stupid choice, and bringing them along would have been amazingly helpful, if not pretty much guarantee victory, but after the fantastic points u made, I can’t disagree with anything u said, and am exactly where u stand about it!!!
Btw, the stupid choice could be considered his wording/promise to release them when he did! They would have been just as willing to help if his terms were to just continue fighting in the other 2 battles around the same time. That way it can’t b argued about him at least having the ABILITY to bring them along to fight those last 2 battles.
"Why didn't Aragon take th Oathbreaker to Mordor"
how could the oath breakers sail the ships? No they had to be left, and better to dismiss them than leave them wandering about without Aragorn to control them
As always making excuses for Tolkiens plot holes. Tolkien fan boys are funny
"MOLDOR"
Aragorn was a man of honour who was accustomed to keeping his promises.
Besides, breaking a promise to dead supernatural spirits could have nasty consequences, such as Sauron somehow gaining control over the ghosts. Dead spirits seem to be his thing, and a broken oath could work in his favour.
Sauron was a necromancer so it was highly likely he could taken control of them.
@@stevenredpath9332 That's pretty much what I was thinking.
He could have just asked them to help him finish the war from the start. It would have taken them another couple of hours. It was lazy writing.
What do you mean I messed up th title screen?!?
😂
I don't get it, what's th problem with it?
No idea!
I need to know what to remember 😭
If i remember correctly, Isildur only called them to a single battle, which they refused, and were thus cursed. After repaying that single battle, at Pelargir, their broken oath was fulfilled, and they could finally be at peace. (I havent watched the vid yet so idk if its mentioned)
That would make sense, as, he would have wanted help retaking HIS City. Minas Ithil. And as they were afraid of their "former" Master Sauron, they would not have dared face his land. That fits perfectly with Aragorn's actions. It also explains why Isildur took the breaking of their Oath so hard!
Wasn't it called the battle of the pellenor fields?
@@davidhimmelfahrt3732 Pelargir is a different city
@@davidhimmelfahrt3732 It's a mistake in the movies
I think that if Aragorn didn't free them, they would've turned on him.
The oath that the oathbreakers gave was to defend Gondor in it’s time of need not to fight a prolonged war Aragorn gave his word if the oathbreakers come to the aid of Gondor he would release them the oath breakers fulfilled their Vow and Aragorn being a man of honor kept his vow and release them after the battle. If he had continue to use the oath breakers it would’ve been no different than Isildur keeping the ring. Both were selfish purposes.
Also it doesn't make much sense to scatter the orcs into Mordor when the whole point of you being there in the first place is to lure out the orcs out of Mordor
Good point!
Ah the trailer parks of Mordor
Do you think Sauron, being a necromancer and all, could have taken control of the Army of the Dead? Or at least disbanded it to some degree?
Jo Machin...As we know the Witch-King was able (As King of Angmar) to send evil spirits to the Barrow Downs (the Barrow -wights). It's safe to see him having the ability to use ghosts AGAINST the free peoples. It certainly seemed to be done to Minas Morgul as well. And Sauron had a Vampire serving him in The First Age, so, how much more likely is the maker of the Ring-Wraiths to control undead?
Probably not, because of the extraordinary power of oaths in Middle - earth
But as Gimli remarked there was a certain incongruity about deploying such "wraiths of darkness" against Sauron.
@@alanpennie8013 ...I'll agree, and add, ERU would NOT have favored the attempt. In it's own was, it was a worse test than the One Ring. Aragorn KNEW NOT to ever use it! This test, he had to make his own path through dark choices and bring Light from darkness.
My thought exactly and I think he would have been able to do so. At one time when they were still alive they had been in his service.
It's definitely a possible. Elven spirits that had been "tainted" were in danger of falling under the control of the Dark Lords. Given that the Oathbreakers once served Sauron in life, it could definitely be argued that they retained that corruption in death, and Sauron may have been able to exploit it.
Perfect. I think you made valid points and covered all of them. I also tend to think the Oath-Breakers were perfect against a completely human host like the one at Pelargir (Umbarians and Haradrim) but would have seriously reduced effects against Orcs and other creatures of the enemy who were themselves partly magical and quite used to the Phantoms, Wraiths, Ghosts and creatures of terror that Sauron employed regularly. I think it would have far less effect, and eventually no effect on such races and classes of beings.
Wow that makes sense. Wraiths don’t bother orcs
The problem was that the Oathbreakers had worshiped Sauron during the Dark Years, which is why they failed to fulfill their oath to Isildur in the first place. Bringing them to Mordor to use against Sauron would have posed the possibility that Sauron could return them to their allegiance to him, and then used them against Aragorn and the rest of his forces. Aside from being a very great gamble, it also was stretching the initial oath quite a bit further. They had been summoned by Isildur to fight for him against Sauron's forces, and by attacking and destroying the Corsairs of Umbar, they had done that, and basically fulfilled their oath. Overall, Aragorn continuing to attempt to use the Oathbreakers put at risk all what he was working for, and that was to be recognized at the true King of Gondor.
The change to the Oathbreakers in the movie could either be for the "awe" feeling of them sweeping the fields and city, or it could be to avoid hiring more extras for human reinforcements.
Or to save time and finish the battle.
I think it was both a time and budgetary reason.
Probably to save time more than anything. But also because the Oathbreakers had more impact in the battle when they showed up in the film too. Not in terms of them fighting but more for the fact that they were undead ghosts that could strike fear into the Orcs! I can't see a bunch of Gondor soldiers having that same effect. Also it just seems a bit lack-luster to the whole story for Aragorn to encounter the Oathbreakers and to then use them in a less significant battle than that of Pelenor fields. I also can't see Gondor soldiers really following him without clear acknowledgement that he was the actual heir to the throne. It's definitely one of the parts of the lord of the rings Peter Jackson made better than the books.
its cool but i also wfelt like its a cop out tactic. theres no big sway through sheer skill or whatever, they just called up some people and had an easy win
@@brutalaxxe Did you not read the books?
1) the orcs are led by the Nazgul and are driven by fear already, why would they be more afraid of ghosts that can't hurt them? Aragorn used them in the only battle where they actually would be useful and he needed the job done QUICK. It was a risky move to employ them at all, and he got them out of play as quickly as possible thereafter.
2) in the books, the arrival of the ships full of soldiers of Gondor, along with the attack of the rohirrim and the death of the Witch King, capped with the dawning of the sun and the washing away of the shadow that was protecting them - all these things annihilated their moral and led to a complete route. It is glorious in the books, whereas in the movie it feels silly and cheap.
3) Aragorn has his banner, his sword, his ring, his guard - he has everything he needs to prove to the men of those lands that he is their commander AND he comes with word of what is happening at Minas Tirith AND he just rescued them from the Corsairs and then dismissed an army of ghosts that only the heir of Isildur could have commanded. There'd be no problem with those armies' commanders agreeing to his plans, which they do.
Nah, in the films it was all to save time.
Not to mention that Sauron being the Necromancer might would have managed to overcome and control the Oathbreakers.
P.S. And remember what at 12:15?
Great points! I can't say that question never bugged me, as it always seemed extremely useful to have an army of ghosts in your back pocket at any time. But then again, like you said, that would be damaging to Aragorn, and to his kingdom.
I suppose the lure of power is what tempted me to think of all the good Aragorn could achieve with the undead army of the Oathbreakers... but that's the same line of reasoning we see with Boromir and a few others over a certain object of power : "Imagine what we could do with this, we shouldn't just throw it away!"
So basically, using the Army of the Dead, even to free Middle-earth from Sauron, would clash not only with Tolkien's morality and themes, but with the reality of the situation as well, as you've demonstrated.
"and remember..." what?
I just wanna point that "they're taking the Oathbreakers to Mordor" can fit the cadence of "they're taking the Hobbits to Isengard."
"They're taking potatoes to McDonalds!"
To Isengard?
mmmm yes but no. Both of them have 10 syllables, but that doesnt mean they pair to the same melody. The weight is on different parts of the sentences
Not really though. The last word would need to be three syllables in order for the cadence to match.
the oathbreak the oathbreak the oathbreak the oathbreakers TO Mordor, ers TO Mordor... hmmm
You say that the ghosts and the fear they spread are like a "party trick" that only works once, and when the enemy realises the ghosts can't hurt them they stop feafing them. I disagree.
In Return of the King, Legolas describes how the corsairs are so afraid of the ghosts that they throw themselves into the water and drown upon seeing them. The fear drives them mad.
This to me suggests that the fear the ghosts spread is more than mundane fear, it's some sort of supernatural terror that can only be resisted by those with extraordinary willpower. This is why Aragorn tells the men of Gondor to follow him from afar, rather than simply explaining the ghosts are on their side; the aura of terror the ghosts emit is so powerful that lesser men simply cannot withstand it no matter how much they try
Legolas also states that the ghosts had weapons but they didn't use them, for fear was the only weapon they needed. (Note that Legolas doesn't say they couldn't use those weapons, just that he didn't see them use them). This would be an odd thing to say if the fear was an easy thing to counter, in that case they definiteky could use another weapon
As for why Aragorn released them when he did, I think it's the collateral damage effect. He wanted his arrival at Minas Tirith to be remembered as a day when the new King saved the city, not as a day when he brought an army of undead abominations and sent his own side into chaos. Also the ships he used needed men to row the oars, and if they all fled or killed themselves out of fear of the ghosts Aragorn wouldn't have arrived on time if at all
Legolas does muse that Aragorn, followed by an army of wraiths, looked like a dark lord himself.
I do think the main danger posed by this army of the dead was a spiritual one, the more they were used the more Aragorn, and everything associated with him, was contaminated by resemblance to Sauron.
I don't know, ghosts are terrifying so I think the corsairs (who are probably a bunch of unruly pirates) could take one look at something they've never seen before, shit their pants, and run without the need to explain it as supernatural.
completely agree
You don't bring an army of dishonorable undead to fight against powerful necromancers (Witch King/Sauron).
It's not that complicated, guys.
@Exantius E
Thank you.
See i always thought the Aragon never took them as the Army of the Dead was Aragon is trying to make himself look like a noble and heroic king worthy of sitting on the Throne of Gondor and its kind of hard to sell the idea your noble and heroic to the people of Gondor and Rohan when you have an army of ghosts as its kind of dark and more in line with Sauron and assuming Denethor doesn't self imolate himself he could make a compelling case that Aragon is corrupted and it would be hard to argue against that reason.
"Men of Gondor, would you really overthrow The Steward who lives to serve you in order to hand the kingship over to this lord of ghosts."
Open to any lore-based corrections on this, but I would speculate that Tolkien inserted a traditional and conservative Christian message within this narrative. At first glance from this perspective, there's an idea that attempting to communicate with dead spirits is strictly forbidden (even if they are real). However, this host seemed unique in circumstance, more undead than dead, like the idea of interceding for those in Purgatory; only to be done very carefully from a religious standpoint (ie. In Catholicism by a saint and by means outlined by an apostolic church). So in this case, not only did there need to be rightful authority for the process, but the undead seemed to also represent a power of giving grace and forgiveness to lost brethren, which helps the Kingdom of God's message of love spread, thus defeating evil as even those lost, the faithless, and cursed contribute to the cause in a way. The undead here obviously weren't intended to be revered as heroes, but bring glory to a higher message aligned with the idea in 2 Corinthians 2:9.
Aragorn gave his word to free them after Minas Tirith. Breaking his word might have create unpredictable consequences. Such as making the army turn against him, and cause untold damage, or worse. Side with Sauron who might give them the promise of freedom, and considering his power i am not sure, if he can't carry it out. In short. Doing that would have been risky as fuck.
(Another reason why you might not want to bring an army of spirits to Mordor…) Sauron is named The Necromancer. Is he able to control the dead? (Like hiding the women and children in the Crypts of Winterfell while the dead-raising army marches on them, in Game of Thrones…)
He wouldn't be much of a necromancer if he couldn't control the dead, if he can control the oathbreaks is up for debate 🤣
I have always felt like failing to fight against Sauron in Mordor could only be repaid by… fighting against Sauron in Mordor
I think the fact Aragon only used them at Pelargier in what effectively is a suprise attack, where their ability to cause fear would have the best impact, as they had the suprise and fear factor on their side is the best evidence that the army of the dead can't hurt people.
As even if the Army of the Dead doesn't scare all the corsairs away they would have suprised and scared a good part of them away at least making any fight the Grey Company might have had to to fight a lot eaiser.
There is a simpler explanation;
Aragorn didn’t know they were going to attack Mordor until after he had already released the Oathbreakers.
Also he must do it, they fulfilled their oath releasing Isildurs curse and are no longer in debt to anyone so he has to release them anyway, also, it's the noble and the right thing to do, regardless of if Aragorn may or may not know future events. He just has to or it would be him that may suffer the consecuences in subtle forms for not being truthful to his word, that's how the Tolkien world works.
@@DocStrange0123 I’m just pointing out that the convoluted explanations most people put forward don’t have to be so complicated.
However, he could have added a stipulation about the fight in Mordor if he had known, and they would have been bound to that agreement.
Now, obviously my comment is more about the movies. In the book, Aragorn only asked them to fulfill their oaths. And since that’s what Ellessar asked them to do, he couldn’t rightfully ask them for anything beyond that. As Isildor’s heir, he’s bound to the oath as much as they are.
Question: Why didn’t the eagles just take them to their final destination? Why didn’t they just take eagles from Rivendell?
Tolkien : STFU
I never thought that the oathbreakers could have had much effect against Nazgul and Sauron. I also thought that their oath bound them to that specific land, not all the land of Gondor. I agree they amounted to a kind of magic trick.
I always imagined Aragon leaving the choice to the oath breakers to stick with him after their battle.
I did it.
He could ask them but he could not offer them anything honorable in return.
@@painlord2k I figure there is honour in doing more than required.
@@upschutt4842 I agree. Especially if you were cowardly as they were the first time around
Because Sauron is the most powerful Necromancer ever to exist in Middle Earth? Not a good place to take an army of undead.
If Aragorn did not release them after the battle at Pelargir, this might have made him a Dark Lord himself. What gives Aragorn his moral authority is that he does the right thing.
I disagree, Isildur only called the Oathbreakers to a single battle, which they did not show up for, and were cursed. Then after repaying the single battle, at Pelargir, their broken oath was fulfilled, game over! Otherwise Aragorn would have broken his oath and that a good King does not do.....
Because one does not simply walk into Mordor with an army of oathbreakers.
If memory serves, elves did not fear the spirits of men (ghosts). If that was the case it may have been the same for orcs (which are corrupted elves). So their effectiveness at Pelennor Fields would be negligible.
Also, it seems to me that there was a clear message intended in all their strategies, both to Sauron and the people of Middle Earth. That message being that the might of Sauron can and should be overthrown by the strength of the mortal races, not by sorcery. And so it was. The battle of the Pelennor Fields was won by the strength of men and the ring was destroyed by the hobbits. This would have greatly raised the courage and hope of the people of Middle Earth, as they could not rely on the higher powers forever; and by the end, they knew they didn't have to. The power of the other rings diminished and the high elves departed along with Gandalf and Middle Earth was left in the care of the mortal races, with a renewed sense of hope, unity and faith in themselves.
Hm but why didnt aragorn command them to serve him in mordor too and then they will be realiesed?
Cos if he had, he would have become an oathbreaker himself. At least, in spirit (no pun intended)
I see the Oath breaker like the One Ring. Aragorn made promise and he resisted the urge to abuse power. Which really is the point of LOTR
Technically, the Oathbreakers never fulfilled their oath. They would have fulfilled it only if they remained fighting of their own free will on Aragorn's side after Aragorn would have sayed to them that he releasing them from their services because they had fulfilled their oath.
Tolkien's Aragorn ; Understands the scope of using the Oathbreakers and releases them.
GRRM's Aragorn : Keeps the Oathbreakers because the Lords of Gondor are livid that the King dares to return and interferes with their oppressing and sucking the peasants dry. Then he worries about how much he'll squeeze the Lords after he gave them a good kick in the head. Then worries about how he'll plan the logistics for the Orc genocide. Then gets stabbed in the eye by Faramir for looking at him funny and with Aragorn now a vegetable to be carried around on a litter while Faramir usurps the title of Steward of the King, blames it on "the elves" and has Legolas, Elladan and Elrohir horribly tortured and gruesomely executed. Gimli escapes, shaves his beard and gets ready to go into apocalyptic lawnmower mode and kill a bunch of main characters at the worst possible moment.
Take an army of ghosts into a realm ruled by Sauron who posed as the Necromancer of Dol-Guldar?
Freeing them prevented Sauron seizing control of them and stripped him of that resource in the process.
Kept his word is a pretty big deal and meant his own forces trusted him even more as a result.
You over thought this.
They fulfilled their original oath, and Aragon is portrayed as nearly perfectly honorable. He called upon them to fulfill their oath, and once they did so, Aragon released them from their curse. It was a way to also put more shine on how truely good Aragon was.
What if Aragorn aked them to help him and they could decide if continue helping him or be released from the oath...
Actually taking Sauron worshipers to Sauron seems like a dangerous test. What is binding the strongest: fulfilling an oath, or the former god of undeads?
I mean Aragorn could have instead stipulated that the Oathbreakers had to help him throughout the rest of the conflict as opposed to one battle. Or at the very least stipulated that they needed to help when they reached the gates of Mordor. Assuming they had power there.
The problem with these questions is every one thinks things like the eagles and the oath breakers are tools to be wielded.
Our Question for the past 18 years has been fulfilled.
Thanks for releasing us Darth Gandalf.
It's time to Rest.
Without watching any of the video, my answer: The men of the mountain can’t rest because of a curse that keeps them Mid-Earthbound until they fulfill their oaths and reclaim their honor. Isildor and his bloodline can remove this curse and grant them a peaceful final rest because they are bound in the thickest honor of all men. If Aragorn asked them to fight one battle at the High Cliffs after which they will be freed, only to turn around and suborn them for an additional, bigger battle, ehem, no…I mean suicide run on Mordor’s front door, that would be acting truly shamefully and without honor. Potentially, he’d be digging his own grave and ending his bloodline. The cursed could then have reason to attack him or perhaps the curse could even rebound upon him. Even if nothing terrible happens to him either physically or magically then and there, the rest of Man in Middle Earth looks to Gondor for security, motivation, inspiration and so on and see them as a perfect ideal for how men should behave. Betraying his own words could ruin him as king, make others not want to ride to battle with him anymore for fear he’ll do something similar to them. More than anything else, he’d be completely compromising himself if he does that and Aragorn is far to righteous and honorable to even consider braking his word as a man, let alone as the King of Man.
A bit strange then to have them in the movie adaptation at Pelennor Fields as well as Minas Tirith.
I just thought it would be a bad idea to have an army of ghosts invade a land ruled by a being that was once called "the Necromancer".
People say he’d be breaking his promise, but why didn’t he just promise them he’d free them after Mordor was defeated?
i agree he could word it that way they can be use as a distraction too
Yes, the Curseth of Erech don´t have bodies as Nazguls have, but what about comparing them with the Specters of Barrow Downs? Their powers were quite impressive.
I thought the barrow-wights had bodies?
@@talroitberg5913 Perhaps, but their psychic power afflicted all the Barrow Downs, although their were in their graves.
Another angle, is that you remember that the oathbreakers also secretly worshipped Sauron and that’s why they turned on Isildur. There is a possibility, however slight, that they may turn on Aragorn if they made it to the black gate.
Very good video about the limits of using the oathbreakers.
The Middle Earth had more than just these ghosts of oathbreakers. Like take example of whatever that was haunting at the Dead Marches. I also remember reading from books, that entrance to Minas Morgul was guarded by some demonic stuff. Its likely Mordor had tons of all kinds of ghost like entities or demons around too. So lets just say Mordor probably would be familiar with that kind of realm, making any kind of ghost stuff ineffective against them. Especially considering, how orcs scared their own overlords more than the enemy. Also, Sauron was once called "The Necromancer".
I think I recall reading somewhere on a reddit post that it's implied Isildur only asked them to reinforce one battle and that was the oath. Therefore once they routed the forces that besieged Gondor their oath was technically fulfilled. I dunno how true that is so take it with a grain of salt.
I always assumed they just wouldn't go and instead attack Aragorn based on the Ghost King's expression.
awesome vid really enjoyed it plus I always thought the army of the dead were cool both within the book and also in the film looking forward to the next vid 😀😀😀😀😀😀
the oathbreakers intervention in the Pelinnor fields is one of my least favorite parts of the movie, that and the whole "Arwen is dying because reasons" thing Elrond says.
Just a thought but at the black gate Sauron might have usurped them. He was called the Necromancer, the dead kinda is in the job description.
1. Aragorn is a man of honour, true to his word. He promised the Oathbreakers to release them from Isildur's curse once they fulfill their oath, and so he did.
2. Even in the days of the Last Alliance, they were afraid of challenging the might of the Dark Lord. I don't think they would follow Aragorn to face the full power of the Enemy.
Nice video. As an in-universe explanation it makes sense. For me though the role of this in the books was in defining Aragorn's character. Now we are nearing the Aragorn-as-king part of the story, it was significant that he only required the oathbreakers to do what was just, even in a time of great need.
I'm confused. Can the oath breakers actually, physically kill a sentient being (IE Orc, man, etc) OR NOT?
If they can't, then are you saying they just scared away the men on the Corsair ships and Aragon captured empty ships? That would mean the Corsair men weren't defeated. Thus, they would return.
If they could actually kill an orc or man then their use was completely wasted by Aragon.
Scare tactic ghosts would would greatly diminish my opinion of what I thought was bad-assery in this story.
Please tell me I'm wrong and that the Oath Breakers did indeed kill the enemy.
I think Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer, would have been able to seize control of the Oathbreakers had they shown up at Mordor. They had even been in his service back when they were still alive. Maybe even the Witch king could have handled them if he'd still been around.
In any event, I think it is academic. Aragorn was always going to hold their paths fulfilled after Pelargir. I'm pretty surprised at the number of comments that say he had or should have had other motivations.
Because they fulfilled their oath so a "king" with a word that has any value whatsoever must and should "release" them as promised, simple as that.
Main reason would be too op.
Great video! You came up with several good points
Gimli was right they would've made the Battle of the Black Gate so easy
Ah well.
In the end it was super - easy anyway.
I always thought that if Aragorn said “Well you’re free to go, but if you’re willing to stick around for a couple more days and take out Mordor too, you would be remembered as heroes rather than oathbreakers” then the oathbreakers could potentially help at Mordor. They’ve been hanging around dick in hand for millenia, what's a few more days to them in exchange for a good legacy? As long as Aragorn agreed to release them regardless, I think that’d have been a good idea.
Also, I highly doubt Eru Iluvatar would curse them to stay alive as ghosts until they fulfil their vow if they were physically incapable of fulfilling that vow. I think it’d be pretty absurd if they actually could do no harm, they’d be useless and trapped forever. The condition to end the curse would be a trick, and that’s not Iluvatar’s MO. I think the Oathbreakers truly are the most powerful army to ever exist in Middle Earth, they’re unkillable but are able to kill. I don’t think any army could kill a single one of them. I think that if given the chance to redeem themselves, they’d take it. However, there’s a decent chance they wouldn’t too - as they do seem to “live” by the idea that “the dead do not suffer the living to pass” so they really don’t give a shit about the living and their legends, but maybe given the opportunity, they’d stop talking smack and actually become decent people. It would be a 50/50 if he asked them to fight again, they might say no they might say yes, but either way the potential benefits are high and the potential detriment is minimal.
Remember... what? What should I remember?? WHAT SHOULD I REMEMBEEEER????!???
I love this part in the books because in any other story these Oathbreakers would be the evil force to defeat, but when fighting against an even greater threat, even death "allies" with Aragorn. ( death being one of the gifts of manking, denied to these warriors). The other angle shows that of all the races Sauron likes Men the best, for their capability for evil, for their resourcefulness. Maybe even Sauron is envious of Mens Gift. I always found strange that while he could create nazgul he could not simply ride to these men and try to put them on his side? I think even Nazgul have more freedom of thought and choice that people think despite the rings being obviously used to corrupt then. True Corruption only occurs if you allow it on yourself, its a choice to be evil. And of all the races Sauron respects men more because of this.
Awesome video, but I completely disagree with most of your theories & logic. ❤
I didn't know the book canon but in the film canon Aragorn could have thought better and included marching on Mordor in the deal. The oathbreakers have been cursed for thousands of years, surely a few more days isn't that big of a request?
I want to say, if you're not so familiar with warfare. The point about the pelanor fields and the Morgul host being able to reform and come back is just not really accurate.
A victory is not achived in battle but when you persue and chase down the routing enemy, mostly with your cavalry. As Napoleon himself said, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially cavalry doesn't win the battle field, but rather destroy the enemy forces so they can not come back.
My point is this. If the Morgul host would've routed at the sight of the oathbreakers, then the segnificant cavalry forces of Rohan would have charged them down, as is the main purpose of cavalry.
Unless Theoden or Eomer gave the order not to persue for whatever reason. So that's the only point I don't think is valid.
How can Aragorn demand them to fight another battle? He said should they fight for him, he would hold their oath fullfilled -- the ghosts had fought, and if Aragorn had not keep to his promise, he'd be an oathbreaker, dishonored king, liar and traitor. It's simply not how Tolkein see a right and just King would act, which Aragorn is meant to become.
If middle earth is to survive, by the blood of the living, not the dead, so be it; for there's no other way but with honor and unbroken principles
I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart forever. - Tolkien's Aragorn
I hold your oath fulfilled. Go, be at peace. - Jackson's Aragorn
I have altered the terms of our deal. Pray I do not alter it any further. -Bezos' Aragorn
Also, arriving at the Pelenor Fields after rallying thr forces of the southern fiefs of Gondor and coming to the City's rescue is completly differnt, in terms of politics and legitimizing A as the True King than just arriving with a personal army of spooks in tow
It's the same reason that they didnt just fly the ring into mordor on the backs of the giant eagles to quote Tolkein himself when asked these kinds of questions "Er.. uh.. well, you know.. shut up."
Reference:
ruclips.net/video/1-Uz0LMbWpI/видео.html
I'd always figured if he tried, the oathbreakers would view Aaragorn as simply attempting to retain thier services withotu ever holding his endo f the bargain, and now free of their self imposed exile they would be near to Mordor and thus... careful whispering by a masterful manipulator of spiritual nature could whisper promises either of release, or of improving their lot if they only scour Gondor clean for criems against their number.
In short. Aaragorn was being pragmatic.
My take, having listened to what you said, is a little different.
I don't think you should underestimate the pure terror of the oathsworn. BUT, there are a couple of things in play. "Need shall drive him" to quote the book. Aragorn clearly had no great desire to use the oathsworn, he did it because he had to. There is no reason to believe he had any desire to use them beyond absolute need given the context.
Could he? Perhaps. Would the results have been good? Unlikely. Ultimately it would have represented a step away from the style of a good king, to that of a warlord, which, in middle earth, is never a good sign.
The stipulation that he'd release thm when he did that you put so much stock by and dwell on so much and repeatedly is an entirely worthless point 🙄
*If* he was going to take them further than the point he did he would simply not have made *that* promise but a different one wouldn't he, something like "when the walls of Angband have fallen and Morgoths armies are defeated and scattered".
Inherent in asking why he didn't take them to Angband itself is the assumption that he could and would have made them a different initial promise about lifting the curse.
So your constant harping back to this utterly pointless not-a-point-at-all-point is both a frustratingly daft and an unreasonably obtuse argument 👎
That they can't actually harm anyone and that after more than one or two encounters this would become pretty obvious to the enemy forces is a strong enough point all on it's own.
And their may have been conditions surrounding the nature of the curse itself that would have prevented him taking them a whole lot further than he did or requiring more than a single task of them but I'd have to go back and read the book again to look into that.
I think there is a point here that maybe was overlooked. Now I'm no expert, but I do believe that the original betrayal concerned what the oath breakers pledged to do on behalf of Isildor. Maybe more importantly in this conversation, that includes what they didn't pledge. The oath breakers didn't pledge to fight side by side with gondor all across middle earth. In fact, the oath breakers weren't even part of the numanorian realm. They were a kingdom of their own adjacent to numanorian land. They pledged to fight on the side of the numanorians in their sphere of influence, and not to join forces with sauron. I can't recall exactly but I also think that some guarantee of autonomy was also offered. So in keeping with the original pledge, I don't think the oatbreakers were bound, or could be bound to act beyond what the original agreement was. By 1) fighting on behalf of the numanorians and 2) seeing saurons forces out of their spear of influence, I believe they had met their agreement,,,, finally.
He didn't take them to Mordor because they fulfilled their oath to his satisfaction. That was the only requirement Aragorn had laid upon them offering them a releasse from their curse. He released them because....wait for it....Aragorn was an honorable man and leader and kept his word. Weird, right? ;)
Although they would have “come in handy in a tight spot” especially in Mordor, Aragorn was right to release them from their oaths. Honor and avoiding supernatural consequences.
My brother and I have been asking this for a lifeage of the Earth. There's NO reason these unkillable ghosts couldn't have washed the filth of Sauron away like a refreshing dam-broken flood
Their curse was for the DEFENSE of Gondor. To Take them any further would risk the geas backfiring onto Aragorn.
another possibility that isn't really mentioned here: Saurons reemergence had a strong effect on all evil things. who is to scythe oath breakers upon nearing the black gate would stay "good". since they already sided with Sauron in life
Made up nonsense does not matter.. its a fairy tale story...leave it as such...why dosen't coyote kill road runner because it's bad for the story that's all. Why didn't Tolkien just write the eagles fly from and Gandalf to drop the ring ...no story.
Gondor is the seat of power. Aragorn must win the hearts and minds of the peoples of Gondor if he is to become King. "The Hands of the King are The Hands of a Healer." not the "King of the Dead". To say that an army of the dead would be useless in battle is ridiculous. The greatest power of the ring wraiths was there ability to instill fear. It didn't matter that everyone knew that this was their greatest power.
Because he barely got them to go to Helm's Deep. It required him promising to release them of their curse if they helped him defend Helm's Deep. Therefore, they ceased to exist as wraiths once that was achieved.
35 terified men( 30 dunudin, eronds 2 sons, legolas, gimly and aragon) held fast mostly by love of aragon traveled with the oath breakers. if you read these passeges they are unnerving and clearly these 35 want it over asap and as you said the troupes at pelargir were none too keen to be near them as in utterly refused