One interesting thing to add, is that even after their destruction the remaining Dunedain still retained long live. Gondorians meanwhile had more average livespans, at least during the events of the Lord of the Rings. That all suggests, that the Arnorians stayed among themselves, with the rest of the people there, even if not outright hostile, not being integrated, while Gondor expanded by actually mixing with the local population, adding their numbers, while spreading knowledge.
The decline of the Dunedain in Gondor isn't necessarily that pronounced at this point. While Dunedain like Faramir or Imrahil would barely make a century or more compared to the 150s that Aragorn's ancestors managed (Aragorn and Eldarion being outliers), the Kings of Gondor actually tended to to live longer than the Kings of Arnor when we consider natural deaths. Although this is admittedly a limited case study
I'd like to point out that the force Gondor sent to aid Arnor wasn't just impressive due to the fact it amazed what was left of Arnor, but also due to the fact the amount of ships and men sent were too much for all the ports in Mithlond to handle. Also, while Gondor was most certainly in the weakest state it had been for centuries during Arthedain's fall, it was still rather strong compared to its counterpart at the end of the Third Age.
As pointed out in the video, lack of population was the key reason for Arnor's weakness. But the cause is not physical, after all, the hobbits in the shire had no problem increasing their numbers. Applying a typical medieval 1% human population growth rate (adjusting for the longer hobbit lifespan) to a founding population of 50 in SR 1, the population of the Shire would be half a million by 1400 SR. The Shire is 44% the size of England and it's 11th cent population was around 1.5 million, suggesting room for about 600K in the Shire. After 1420 they did expand, according to LOTR, perhaps because they were running out of good land. So, even if you adjust for the longer lifespans of Numenoreans, the tripling of the English population achieved between 1086 and 1300, despite civil wars and other mishaps would be achieved by achieved by the people of Arnor by TA 700 if they behaved as medieval people. Since the initial population was large enough to found two major cities, by 700 it should have been large enough to support six large cities. But that did not happen in the North (although this sort of population growth did happen in the South). The reason for the differential procreation rates was probably cultural. Specifically the influence of Elvish culture, which was stronger in Arnor, since it was adjacent to major Elvish polities.
Im late to the party, but the tendency of Numenoreans to have few children and the losses gained during the War of the Last Alliance and the Disaster, combined with some references that arnor had less population (but a more Numenorean population/somewhat mixed with the few edain still living there) makes me believe that they never recovered from those losses.
@@nightchicken283 They didn't because they had so few r children. The were influenced by elvish culture. Elves had very few children, but they were immortal and so didn't really *need* to have children. Numenoreans were long-lived, but they still died and so they really needed to breed.
@@nightchicken283 Tolkien never truly mentions if the longer lives of the numenorians effects their urge to breed. What we do know is that during One time in Gondor 4 generations of kings were alive at the same time. Granted they needed to preserve there bloodline but with there longer lives they could of just waited. Though these are Gondorians and Arnorians and they have more proximity to the middle men(some blatantly living in gondor). So from what we do know they breed at a Regular pace but do have fewer children(2 or 3 children is probably the safest bet).
Ah Lindon, the safest place to buy real estate in all of Middle Earth. Not invaded even once in over 2000 years of near constant warfare for the rest of the continent
Funny thought: Maybe Gondors lands are also very fertile because of Orodruin. At least volcanic ash is known as a good fertilizer. That in combination that they only get mild amounts because of the Mountainchains and have a lot of rivers those Lands would be perfect for farming. Great video keep it up. Greetings from Germany 👍
Good point. Plus Gondor had a warmer climate. Also, I wonder if the effects of the Witch King in the north not only creating the Barrow Wights but also in a way cursing the land made it less bountiful.
I think you may compare Arnor with the decline of European population in the 5th and 6th century after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Northern parts of the empire were already pretty depopulated in comparison with the South or East provinces much like Arnor vs Gondor and the constant warfare of the 4th century lead to the abandoning of the unsafe countryside to only small fortified centres. The big cities were basically empty at the time. Imagine that Rome itself went from about 1 million inhabitants a couple of centuries earlier to little more than 50.000. Tolkien was probably inspired by this time period, considering his mentioning of the Long Winter (which actually took place in the 500s) and the Great Plague (the plague of Justinian some years after)
I think 538 was the "year of no sun" and within a couple of decades the Justinian plague hit Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong but it pretty much started "the dark ages" right?
Minas Tirith is literally Constantinople with its triple walls. Gondor's definitely inspired from the Eastern Roman Empire which survived the Fall of the Western Empire (Arnor) and even went on to reconquer lost lands.
Really great analysis. That's interesting. Also just looking at a map you can see that Arnor is not very defensible geographically. They have to control all of Eriador to make use of natural barriers. Any opposition within that area will quickly become a problem
It's my opinion that one of the chief issues that caused a population problem for the Arnorian's was a serious lack of "lesser men" for direct neighbors and citizens. Gondor had them in spades. Another issue was the deeper belief in Numerian purity among the Anorians. They were far less likely to intermarry with lesser men. A third was their deep seated and often denied Elf Worship - i.e., that of the Faithful, the Dunedain of Arnor was more inclined to follow the Elven ideals, often married late and had few children.
It goes to show you Tolkien's writing was superb and his understanding of the rise and decline of civilisations was based on a very solid foundation of the understanding of how a power's rise and fall is subordinated to the land it dwells in, the economy, enemies on its borders and so on. There has never been a writer so deep in his understanding of the material he writes about as Tolkien and I doubt there ever will be again to the level Tolkien wrote about Middle Earth.
You're right. Even the kievan rus has around 5 million people. But they eventually divided into several principalities as they failed to unite from constant infighting. Charlemagne's empire has 10 - 20 million in 800s or half of the entire European population at that time.
Yes, my moment has come. Awesome video! Though, if I'm not mistaken, the Shire wasn't so much uninhabited due to decline, as much as it was the King's personal hunting grounds and no one was allowed to live there. Except of course the weed smoking midgets in the end..
Appreciating your approach! I suppose the logic and facts explained in the video will apply to Arnor in the beginning of the IV Age as well, especially after casualties and devastation of the War of the Ring.
Dude never apologize for then length when the content is good. This gives a wonderfully balanced perspective on an area left vague by Tolkien but with glaring demand for musing and pondering. Please keep up the great work.
I think that Bree was destroyed but it was later reestablish, it's population fled toward the Blue Mountains and Lindon and returned after Angmar's defeat. Arvedui could possibly reestablish a petty Arnor centred on Bree, but the thing is Tolkien needed a story line of a long defeated Kingdom with a mysterious heroic heir defeating evil and restoring the land. Agrarian medieval kingdoms had small armies, most of population should stayed at home, tending the fields, and not perish in a war in a faraway land. There is the question of Angmar's economy and ability to feed it's armies... There should be also at least some mercenaries and colonists coming from Gondor, there should be a at least a little more help from their allies. Not everything is logical in LOTR, for instance Dwarfs not growing food and having husbandry.
also this though hit me: the hobbits were settled in Arnor because they were good food producers. Arnor was always short on population and bringing in a race of short people who don't fight and love quite farm life would be good for the kingdom made up of long lived ranger types.
I always assumed the dwarves knew some animal husbandry (Thorin's company rode ponies/horses. If I recall, in the books, Gimili knows how but is just too short to ride Roherim horses). I just assumed they found a way to grow food under their mountains using some sort of artificial sunlight.
@@kieranh2005 almost everywhere writes that dwarves relay on commerce for food and don't realy produce food, that would not fly in real medieval Times. But remember that Tolkien changed a lot in his writings, it was a evolving world not a static one (I mean the writting procedure)
Really good analysis. It always stood out to me just how feeble Arnor seemed in comparrison to Gondor. I don’t even think Tolkien mentions them besting the forces of Angmar once. The whole history of Arnor is one long, sad decline.
A very important thing to notice about Middle Earth is that most kingdoms are essentially Fisher Kingdoms, in that their population growth and strength tends to mirror whether the king is considered good and just. Take Gondor for example. After Sauron's fall, it was suddenly able to conquer lands far into the south and east, and force peace on the Haradrim and Rhûn, while also reestablishing Arnor and many other things. Mordor hadn't really been in open conflict with Gondor until Sauron returned, but those lands had been lost a long time ago due to Gondorian decline. It is the same in Eriador, where in the 1,200 years between Arnor's fall and the War of the Ring, no middle men kingdoms arose, and the lands were sparsely populated, despite the Shire and Bree showing that most of it would have been perfectly good land to form a bunch of petty kingdoms on.
I blame the Hobbits for the fall of Arnor, there terrible singing drove all numernorians away, it was so bad in fact the Witch king destroyed Arnor to shut them up but he failed because Gondor had to get in the way.
I just found your channel and I am enjoying it very much! Thank you for making these videos! Also, Arnor may be influenced by Scotland &/or the Scottish Highlands. This thought just occurred to me as I listened to your description of the geography of Arnor
Lands that will become kingdom of Gondor were already full of Numenoreans by the time Elendil comes with his sons... I think this was more important than the fact that middle Men were friendly to them... Dol Amroth, Pelargir, Osgiliath probably had mostly Dunedain/Numenorean populations when Elendil came. Edhelond could have had some mixture of Sindar and Numenorean population. Minas Anor and Minas Ithil were founded by Elendil's sons so again two cities full of Dunedain. Lamedon and Linhir could have had mixed population of Middle Men and Numenoreans at that time... my point being Gondor had much more Dunedain(even if they mixed with Middle men in later ages) than Arnor... and these were formidable foes for any enemy even in small numbers...
When it devolved into 3 Kingdoms 2 parties probably left the capital with large hosts making the large city impractical to defend so the remaining people also left. I like this video it matches my thoughts on the matter.
Loved the video man, one more speculation from me,perhaps? I think your first reason of the natives not liking the Dunedain was the most important,as well as the fact (not sure IF it's a fact,but if memory serves I read it somewhere in the appendices) that the northern Dunedain refused to mingle with the local population, unlike their southern kin, wanting to keep their bloodline pure. On the one hand that gave us a pure blooded numenorian king in the fourth age, who lived a looong and happy life (though his wife may have sth to say about that),but on the other the Witch-king didn't even have to assail Bree since his goal was to destroy the Dunedain, not ravage people who could later be brought into the fold (like rhudaur or even dunland in the later third age).
Also remember Osgiliath was the capital of Gondor and they likely had tremendous economic benefits from trade. Nothing like that sort of trade route existed in the north. Tharbad is the closest analog. The blue mountains and Harland and Mithlond likely didn’t trade enough to keep things going. Also Gondor had the fiefdom of Dol Amroth.Arnor never had as strong a neighbor.
That was a great Video, you put really effort into. Could you make a video what happend if Sarumans Uruks took Frodo and Sam and brought them to orthanc without getting attacked by eomer? Would Saruman still attack Rohan? Would Sauron attack Isengart immediately and with which force? Who would have won and what would the free peoples do in that kind of situation?
Do we think the Dunedain rangers did not have big families and many died early on ranging trips? The Grey company is absolutely tiny. One of the things I notice historically is the shrinking populations are exclusive, but growing populations inclusive. Differences between Spartan citizenship and Roman citizenship.
Certainly seems like the ranger life isn’t exactly fit for being much of a family man: Semi-nomadic, often solitary and stealthy warriors out in the bush for long durations.
In Tolkien's world Quality of Blood line matters a lot. Its not the War of Last Alliance, but the Disaster of Gladden Field from which Arnor has never recovered. It was told that in Arnor lost most of its highest quality men there, most probably half of the number landed with Elendil died. So not only their number dwindled so also the "proper Numenorean bloodline"
Tolkien doesn't seem to go for the idea of upward social mobility to enlarge or replace higher social classes, much. The one exception that I can think of is Sam Gamgee.
Another thing is that Gondor's population was replenished by Northmen after the Kin-strife, (Eldacar had brought many Northmen to Gondor). This might have brought their lifespans down, but it presumably allowed the Gondorians multiply faster than the more long lived Arnorians. Also, it seems like the inhabitance in Arnor don't know how to settle new land very, I mean the Shire, Bree, Dunland, and the Rangers had thousands of years after the Angmar War to resettle Eriador, but none of them ever did.
Arnor was once a great kingdom . The wars with the witch king destroyed Arnor. Arthedain was left with just a few rangers roaming the Wild, cardolan was destroyed and Rhudaur became spooky due to the nine being buried in tombs so dark, that light would never come to them
I know compared to many of your other videos, these numbers would be rather small but would you consider doing a video on the strength of the northern rangers? I believe its said that 30 travelled to depend minas tirith and that others were not able to be summoned on short notice. I also have a few questions concerning them that I cant seem to find definitive answers too, such as are there any permanent settlements for these peoples (Ive heard people mention a few on the Angle of Rhudaur)? Are their other peoples in eriador that the rangers protect, other then in bree-land or the shire? And from the last question, Tolkien seemed to have an affinity for partially abandoned settlements, such as the grey mountains where its suggested some dwarfs remained, it has also been suggested that some dwarves remain in the ruins of Belegost and Nogrod, do you think that any of the ancient cities of Arnor and the later kingdoms that may still have populations, If so would the rangers protect or interact with them, possibly even combining strength in times of war to support their declining numbers? and finally Ive heard people references the chieftains of the rangers and tribal elements, are their multiple groups of rangers in the north? if their are, are any named and how are they different? I know this is a pretty long question, but Id appreciate any insight you'd have, thanks.
Video on the Northern Dunedain will be coming soon. As for their permanent settlements, none are given - the Angle in Rhudaur is a hypothesis, but it's not canon (not mentioned in primary sources). As for ruined cities in Arnor, I doubt there were people living there on a permanent basis. Tharbad was the last city to have some inhabitants, but that was deserted about 80 or so years before the Lord of the Rings. It's mentioned that the Rangers would sometimes visit Fornost (and possibly the same for Annuminas), but it isn't said that they lived there or any other static settlement. As for the Rangers, they're one group answering to one lord. No tribes as far as we know. Presumably, Aragorn would have lieutenants such as Halbarad who might lead different groups, such as the one that battled the Nazgul at Sarn Ford, but in the end, they're all answerable to Aragorn.
@@DarthGandalfYT but it's said in Nature of Middle Earth that the Dúnedain dwelt in the Angle, and if I recall it rightly, they dwelt closer to the Hoarwell, and Arador was living in the Trollshaws close to the Hoarwell, but north of the Hills of Rhudaur.
@@anti-liberalismo I believe that comment was made before NoMe came out. And I actually missed the note about Arador's house in the Coldfells in my first read.
Based on illustrations alone, Gondor looked more powerful and impressive, but Arnor looked more beautiful, full of meadows, streams, and lakes, and it was close to Lindon, and Rivendell. It's really unfortunate.
i was thinking: the Dúnedain provided the hobbits with food during the Fell Winter of 2912, how would they feed such a huge population of Hobbits since they were so presumably so few? I believe they have grown more numerous during the time between the Fall of Fornost and the end of the third age
What I've always wondered is where did the surviving Dunedain of Arnor live after TA 1975? They clearly needed somewhere safe for their families so my guess is that lived somewhere in Forlindon and/or Harlindon as that was a safe place and the only other people living there were Elves.
The only evidence we have is a barely legible note that Tolkien wrote when writing the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn. It suggests that the Dunedain lived between the Mitheithel and the Bruinen, in the area known as "The Angle".
@@DarthGandalfYTThat always seemed a strange place to settle. The only plus I can see is being close to Rivendell. It's not a pleasant and fertile region from what I remember.
Hey, I always wondered how many nothern dunedains were there in the time of the war of the ring, what is your guess ? i think several hundreds max few thousands (including children and women)... thank you, it might be topic for one of your videos 😅
The question that intrigues me is this: If there were less than 2000 Dúnedain left in Arnor at the start of the Fourth Age (including women and children). Then how did Aragorn reconstitute and rebuild the northern kingdom? Was Arnor a kingdom in name only? Where would he find men to restart communities in Arnor. Was immigration encouraged from Gondor? Who became the new permanent inhabitants of Annuminas? To be the effective capital of Arnor it would need people living there. I suppose in the end we will never know.
There were also several thousand Bree-landers that would be part of the kingdom. Immigration from Gondor might have been encouraged, but either way I imagine it would have been a very slow start for Arnor in the Fourth Age.
@DarthGandalfYT I wholeheartedly agree. If you could get 100 families around Annuminas and they are free from war I can see things going well. Other than common grey wolves, the predator count should be low. It depends on whether the site of families matches standard human families in our medieval period. If they actually start having a minimum of 5 or 6 children each, then population growth will take off. It's only a problem if they continue to only have 1-3 children maximum and they continue the Numenorean tradition of having children late in life.
I believe I read somewhere that Aragorn used Annimunas as the Capital of the reunited Kingdom for a short time, and left Gondor to Steward Faramir to see the day to day management.
In reference to no enemies attacking across the Anduin river, you forgot the invasion of Orcs in 2509 of the Third age when the Rohirrim came south and helped a Gondorian army destroy the Orcs at the Battle on the Field of Celebrant. After abandoning Fornost after the defeat in 1975 TA, where do you think the main population areas of Dunedain in Arnor were? I always thought they were between the Shire and Lindon although, I have never seen a comment from Tolkien or his son as to where they thought the Dunedain lived?
Dunedains of Gondor had the same problem, even though their numbers were higher. But native population in Gondor was a lot bigger and they mixed with Dunedains a lot more. Dunedains married late and had few children, they tend not to remarry. New generations of Dunedains were small and far apart, beside their losses in war and plague were very high.
Why didn’t Gondor attempt to rebuild Arnor after the wars of Angmar? Gondor had sent a powerful army north to defeat the witch but afterwards it seems they just left leaving their kinsmen to ruin. The house of Anárion (dynasty of Gondor) didn’t even bother offering their cousins the House of Elendil sanctuary I’m Gondor the only reason that comes to mind is perhaps by this time the house Elendil had already gone into hiding as chief tans of the Dunedin rangers and therefore could not be found by Gondor. Another possible reason was taking the future of Gondor into consideration by having two related royal lines in one kingdom how long would this kinship last until both houses start competing with each other for the throne of Gondor. Lines would be drawn about who is more worthy to rule and therefor Gondor would probably endure years of division and civil war that had torn Arnor to sunders.
I imagine a lot of it came down to Aranarth's decision to not rebuild the Northern Kingdom, and go into hiding instead. Gondor might've been able to help rebuild the kingdom, but Aranarth clearly didn't think it was worth rebuilding. I'd also like to think that Malbeth's prophecies played a part in Aranarth's decision-making. And your point about competing royal lines is a good one. We already had the earlier example of Arvedui's claim being rejected, so it was clear that Isildur's line was seen as secondary in Gondor. Even after Earnur's death, there were still descendants of Anarion floating around, but none of them had a strong enough claim. I doubt they would've sat idly by as an heir of Isildur, a guy who had spent his entire life in the north, simply waltzed in and took the throne. Obviously, circumstances were different by the War of the Ring, but yeah, back then civil war was a real threat.
a question. i have and a video might be cool but was emigration and immigration and refugee and stuff like that a thing that went on. and did any outliers of any race swap side or join their enemies during any of these wars
At the beginning of the Third Age what the Dunedain in Arnor needed to do is breed like rabbits for a few generations which would've sorted out its population issues.
You forgot the disaster of the Gladden fields where most of Arnors returning army from the last alliance was ambushed and killed. This severely reduced the arnorian population, which highly supports your points :)
I'd say Gladden Fields was more of a leadership loss than anything. Isildur's company only consisted of 200 knights, but these guys were likely high-ranking officers and of pure Numenorean blood.
@@DarthGandalfYT I did manage to find the reference that I was thinking of, and as you rightly so corrected me on it was not the Gladden Fields disaster. I was thinking of the loss of life during the war of the last alliance, which severely reduced Arnors population due to the number of casualties. This is mentioned in the unfinished tales alongside the gladden fields disaster, hence my mixup of the details ^_^ This still supports your points and makes Arnors situation look even more dire at the onset of the third age. Keep up the good work, as I am very much enjoying the speculations :)
8:13 This is what always annoys me. It's a fantasy setting it works differently'' Ugh no that doesn't work like that, just because it's a fantasy does it mean they can turn of gravity when it pleases them ? You have to work within the laws of the world and one of which if you can't just pull a bunch of food outta thin air.
after playing northern dunedaine in tw medieval 2 TA 4.5, any army consisting of more than 10 units, is big. not that they would matter, arrows kill everything, but i just cant expand...
The depopulation of middle earth is one of the biggest issues in the LOTR. Vast tracts of fertile land existing uninhabited for thousands of years is unrealistic. It was two thousand years from the beginning of the third age to the fall of Arnor, in that time period german tribesman chasing pigs through the forests went to become the nation Germany is today. Arnor has no excuses.
Those tribesmen also became the nations of England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, and France. By extension, they also started the modern nations of the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. A lot can be done in a couple of thousand years (1500 really).
He might have helped them. Gandalf's whereabouts are unknown for much of the Third Age, so it's entirely possible he was aiding the Kings of Arnor in their struggles against Angmar. Evidently, if he did help, then his help was not enough.
I always for some reason thought Arnor was stronger compared to gondor being not at war from all sides and being larger, until it got split ofcourse. Then that dunedain where still in Eriador not in gondor so i thought there was more numenorians there than gondor had but got exterminated and much of the people of Eriador by the witch king. Then that the witch king was just a major threat and a great general. Probably effected by me playing battle for middle earth rise of the witch king.
Did the Dunedain only have children once every 50 years or so? They seem to reach adulthood in the same amount of time as normal men, so how do we know they would only see one or two generations in a century? It could be the same number, but with all the generations overlapping in their lifespans.
Sorry for the late reply. Dunedain reached adulthood at the same time as normal men, but they usually had children far later in life, and the longer their lifespans at that point, the longer it took for them to have children. For example, Boromir was born when Denethor was 48, Aragorn was born when Arathorn was 58, Arveleg I was born when Argeleb was 83, Eldacar was born when Valandil was 98. So even lesser Dunedain were still having children much later. As for overlapping generations, like in our own world, it was pretty rare for them to meet their great-grandfather. For example, Valandil died 31 years before Tarcil (his great-grandson) was born, and using a more recent example, Turgon died 25 years before Boromir (his great-grandson) was born.
How many Dunedain rangers do you think there were? They seemed to have managed to successfully hold a defensive line of thousands of miles from Tharbad to Carn Dume. There must have been at least several thousand... Maybe the Rangers took your advice and had dozens of babies?😁
Sorry for the late reply. As for the Dunedain Rangers, several hundred at the minimum, maybe two thousand at most, which includes women and children too. There's two details that imply their numbers are really low - 1). The Sons of Elrond are only able to bring 30 Rangers south as past of the Grey Company. 2). When those Rangers leave, Saruman and his lackeys are able to invade the Shire with zero resistance. The Rangers are a scattered, wandering people, but I doubt there were very many of them left by the War of the Ring.
A proposal for a what if. This in keeping with the theme of tne video. Using the Great Plague of 1636 in the Third Age, we increase the range of this plague. The South & East as well as the West. To keep this short, with not many of Men serviving, what did Sauron need Men for? Oh dear, dark creatures on a hosti.e take over!
Population growth is not as simple, especially over long eons of time. Look at the populations in many countries today compared to say 100 years ago. Even loosing every male between 16 and 48 in a war doesn't necessarily show 4 generations later. Human populations can have an astonishing ability to multiply given the right circumstances. A loss of men can even enhance this as women have to compete for them. Sickness is usually far more devastating than wars because it strikes children and women too and you can't really run and hide. If Arnor used women in war, or couldn't protect their female population, then that could have a serious dampening on demographic recovery. The number of females is much more important here than the number of men. Unless a strong cultural practice have an impact too. Stress, uncertainty, danger, these are of course things that can effect reproduction abilities on a personal level and a society in duress, not just from large invasions but raids, could have such effects. A dominant marshal culture, centered on ethnicity, making up the socioeconomic hierarchical structure of society, could of course also play a huge part. See I don't really believe Arnor fell as much as I believe the numenorean elite fell. Eriador is a region lacking authority, not so much lacking people. The very idea of restoring the kingdom would have been laughable if there was solely complete desolation. I believe Arnor failed because of failure to integrate its various peoples into one society. I think the Dunedain saw themselves as the warriors, and the rest were their workers. The Breelanders obviously don't like the rangers f ex. While I wouldn't suggest straight out slavery, even living as a 2nd class citizen, forced to work a specific farm as was common in medieval and even earlier places, must naturally have been problematic for middle men looking at starting a family. And if the orcs came, whilst the blood of numenor rode into battle, the middle men took to the hills, the woods, the marshes. Where they have probably remained, challenged yet surviving, whilst elves, hobbits and dunedain took very if any notice of them. By the time of the Hobbit and LOTR, Bilbo and Frodo respectively describe at least the lands surrounding Bree as decently farmed before gradually dwindling eastwards. Only Rhudaur is actually straight out described as being empty. Save for the Angle at the joint of the rivers, where the Dunedain apparently live. One can also ponder, who are all these southern folks coming up the greenway? Some look more foreign than others it seems, so are some simply farmers of Cardolan or where exactly do they come from? Aragorn also states he cannot really feed a party in the wild, suggesting the watch at Sarn Ford and other places have local support of some sort. All heroes except Sam are aristocracy, and it's about the High-Elves and their friends. That's the perspective these stories have. This is underlined by Gandalf hunting for Gollum, asking around among people who have seen a thief and murderer sneaking around, all apparently living in empty lands in the wilderness. In short, there are people still living in Arnor. They just lack a government.
How about just reading the book and the appendices? There's a million of these lore videos for people who don't like reading. The entire history of Gondor and Arnor is very simply outlined right there at the end of the trilogy: APPENDIX A: ANNALS OF THE KINGS AND RULERS APPENDIX B: THE TALE OF YEARS
One interesting thing to add, is that even after their destruction the remaining Dunedain still retained long live. Gondorians meanwhile had more average livespans, at least during the events of the Lord of the Rings. That all suggests, that the Arnorians stayed among themselves, with the rest of the people there, even if not outright hostile, not being integrated, while Gondor expanded by actually mixing with the local population, adding their numbers, while spreading knowledge.
The decline of the Dunedain in Gondor isn't necessarily that pronounced at this point.
While Dunedain like Faramir or Imrahil would barely make a century or more compared to the 150s that Aragorn's ancestors managed (Aragorn and Eldarion being outliers), the Kings of Gondor actually tended to to live longer than the Kings of Arnor when we consider natural deaths. Although this is admittedly a limited case study
There are purer areas even in Gondor such as Dol Amroth and Belfalas. Hell, Dol Amroth's princes even carry Eldar blood.
The gist of it is that most of the Arnorians that were not Dunedain died or moved to Gondor.
@@macrosense Died. One hell of a lot of them died, for all the reasons listed. Some refugees may have made the trek to Gondor.
There weren't a lot of Arnorians left to mix with. The Dunedain, the Hobbits and the people of Bree were pretty much it.
I'd like to point out that the force Gondor sent to aid Arnor wasn't just impressive due to the fact it amazed what was left of Arnor, but also due to the fact the amount of ships and men sent were too much for all the ports in Mithlond to handle. Also, while Gondor was most certainly in the weakest state it had been for centuries during Arthedain's fall, it was still rather strong compared to its counterpart at the end of the Third Age.
Pretty sure Gondor was dealing with threats from Rhun and Harad as well as the kin strife.
As pointed out in the video, lack of population was the key reason for Arnor's weakness. But the cause is not physical, after all, the hobbits in the shire had no problem increasing their numbers. Applying a typical medieval 1% human population growth rate (adjusting for the longer hobbit lifespan) to a founding population of 50 in SR 1, the population of the Shire would be half a million by 1400 SR. The Shire is 44% the size of England and it's 11th cent population was around 1.5 million, suggesting room for about 600K in the Shire. After 1420 they did expand, according to LOTR, perhaps because they were running out of good land.
So, even if you adjust for the longer lifespans of Numenoreans, the tripling of the English population achieved between 1086 and 1300, despite civil wars and other mishaps would be achieved by achieved by the people of Arnor by TA 700 if they behaved as medieval people. Since the initial population was large enough to found two major cities, by 700 it should have been large enough to support six large cities. But that did not happen in the North (although this sort of population growth did happen in the South).
The reason for the differential procreation rates was probably cultural. Specifically the influence of Elvish culture, which was stronger in Arnor, since it was adjacent to major Elvish polities.
Im late to the party, but the tendency of Numenoreans to have few children and the losses gained during the War of the Last Alliance and the Disaster, combined with some references that arnor had less population (but a more Numenorean population/somewhat mixed with the few edain still living there) makes me believe that they never recovered from those losses.
@@nightchicken283 They didn't because they had so few r children. The were influenced by elvish culture. Elves had very few children, but they were immortal and so didn't really *need* to have children. Numenoreans were long-lived, but they still died and so they really needed to breed.
@@mikealexander1935 Yet, they (the numenoreans) had far fewer children due to that elvish mindset.
@@nightchicken283
Tolkien never truly mentions if the longer lives of the numenorians effects their urge to breed.
What we do know is that during One time in Gondor 4 generations of kings were alive at the same time.
Granted they needed to preserve there bloodline but with there longer lives they could of just waited.
Though these are Gondorians and Arnorians and they have more proximity to the middle men(some blatantly living in gondor).
So from what we do know they breed at a Regular pace but do have fewer children(2 or 3 children is probably the safest bet).
@@mikealexander1935 they’re weren’t influenced by elves at all
Even the High elves of Lindon had a large force in comparison to Arnor xD
Ah Lindon, the safest place to buy real estate in all of Middle Earth. Not invaded even once in over 2000 years of near constant warfare for the rest of the continent
Too bad most of the elves departed middle earth at the end of the third age.
Funny thought: Maybe Gondors lands are also very fertile because of Orodruin. At least volcanic ash is known as a good fertilizer. That in combination that they only get mild amounts because of the Mountainchains and have a lot of rivers those Lands would be perfect for farming. Great video keep it up. Greetings from Germany 👍
Good point. Plus Gondor had a warmer climate. Also, I wonder if the effects of the Witch King in the north not only creating the Barrow Wights but also in a way cursing the land made it less bountiful.
Arnor has no king, BUT ARNOR NEEDS A KING!
I think you may compare Arnor with the decline of European population in the 5th and 6th century after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Northern parts of the empire were already pretty depopulated in comparison with the South or East provinces much like Arnor vs Gondor and the constant warfare of the 4th century lead to the abandoning of the unsafe countryside to only small fortified centres. The big cities were basically empty at the time. Imagine that Rome itself went from about 1 million inhabitants a couple of centuries earlier to little more than 50.000. Tolkien was probably inspired by this time period, considering his mentioning of the Long Winter (which actually took place in the 500s) and the Great Plague (the plague of Justinian some years after)
Yep, Arnor and Gondor were surely inspired by the Romans
I think 538 was the "year of no sun" and within a couple of decades the Justinian plague hit Europe. Correct me if I'm wrong but it pretty much started "the dark ages" right?
Minas Tirith is literally Constantinople with its triple walls. Gondor's definitely inspired from the Eastern Roman Empire which survived the Fall of the Western Empire (Arnor) and even went on to reconquer lost lands.
I love your six pack of beer and case of beer analogy.
Really great analysis. That's interesting. Also just looking at a map you can see that Arnor is not very defensible geographically. They have to control all of Eriador to make use of natural barriers. Any opposition within that area will quickly become a problem
Comparing Arnor and Gondor to two guys barely surviving a drinking party is the most Australian metaphor Ever!
It's my opinion that one of the chief issues that caused a population problem for the Arnorian's was a serious lack of "lesser men" for direct neighbors and citizens. Gondor had them in spades. Another issue was the deeper belief in Numerian purity among the Anorians. They were far less likely to intermarry with lesser men. A third was their deep seated and often denied Elf Worship - i.e., that of the Faithful, the Dunedain of Arnor was more inclined to follow the Elven ideals, often married late and had few children.
Here's my opinion on the topic, if your interested. ruclips.net/video/yzpGyWKqpn4/видео.html
3:20 best comparison ever
True
lol that was great and funny
It goes to show you Tolkien's writing was superb and his understanding of the rise and decline of civilisations was based on a very solid foundation of the understanding of how a power's rise and fall is subordinated to the land it dwells in, the economy, enemies on its borders and so on. There has never been a writer so deep in his understanding of the material he writes about as Tolkien and I doubt there ever will be again to the level Tolkien wrote about Middle Earth.
Tolkien always had a problem with population. The idea that an area the size of Arno was all but unpopulated is ridiculous.
You're right. Even the kievan rus has around 5 million people. But they eventually divided into several principalities as they failed to unite from constant infighting.
Charlemagne's empire has 10 - 20 million in 800s or half of the entire European population at that time.
This popped up in my feed for the first time today. I'm looking forward to watching it, as it is a question that has always puzzled me.
Unique, intrinsic, valuable. Please continue this kind of deep dive. It’s another face to Tolkien’s world
Great analysis
Arnor was beset by enemies and the plague really took a toll on them. Also the lack of sea trade likely depressed them relative to Gondor
Yes, my moment has come. Awesome video!
Though, if I'm not mistaken, the Shire wasn't so much uninhabited due to decline, as much as it was the King's personal hunting grounds and no one was allowed to live there. Except of course the weed smoking midgets in the end..
A really nice take man! Great stuff, have a little look into your pronunciation of names and places, but excited to see what you do next :)
Appreciating your approach! I suppose the logic and facts explained in the video will apply to Arnor in the beginning of the IV Age as well, especially after casualties and devastation of the War of the Ring.
Dude never apologize for then length when the content is good. This gives a wonderfully balanced perspective on an area left vague by Tolkien but with glaring demand for musing and pondering. Please keep up the great work.
This is one highly enjoyable piece of art you made here
I think that Bree was destroyed but it was later reestablish, it's population fled toward the Blue Mountains and Lindon and returned after Angmar's defeat. Arvedui could possibly reestablish a petty Arnor centred on Bree, but the thing is Tolkien needed a story line of a long defeated Kingdom with a mysterious heroic heir defeating evil and restoring the land.
Agrarian medieval kingdoms had small armies, most of population should stayed at home, tending the fields, and not perish in a war in a faraway land. There is the question of Angmar's economy and ability to feed it's armies... There should be also at least some mercenaries and colonists coming from Gondor, there should be a at least a little more help from their allies.
Not everything is logical in LOTR, for instance Dwarfs not growing food and having husbandry.
also this though hit me: the hobbits were settled in Arnor because they were good food producers. Arnor was always short on population and bringing in a race of short people who don't fight and love quite farm life would be good for the kingdom made up of long lived ranger types.
I always assumed the dwarves knew some animal husbandry (Thorin's company rode ponies/horses. If I recall, in the books, Gimili knows how but is just too short to ride Roherim horses). I just assumed they found a way to grow food under their mountains using some sort of artificial sunlight.
@@Elm0xz What about second breakfast?
LOTR lore never says that the dwarves DON'T farm or fell trees.
@@kieranh2005 almost everywhere writes that dwarves relay on commerce for food and don't realy produce food, that would not fly in real medieval Times. But remember that Tolkien changed a lot in his writings, it was a evolving world not a static one (I mean the writting procedure)
I subscribed today.... And enjoying all so far.. :-)
Very new and fresh channel! I like...
Really good analysis. It always stood out to me just how feeble Arnor seemed in comparrison to Gondor. I don’t even think Tolkien mentions them besting the forces of Angmar once. The whole history of Arnor is one long, sad decline.
Finally, someone who makes a speculative analysis! I've heard the same things over an over forever. Thank you. Take my like my sub and the bell.
A very important thing to notice about Middle Earth is that most kingdoms are essentially Fisher Kingdoms, in that their population growth and strength tends to mirror whether the king is considered good and just. Take Gondor for example. After Sauron's fall, it was suddenly able to conquer lands far into the south and east, and force peace on the Haradrim and Rhûn, while also reestablishing Arnor and many other things. Mordor hadn't really been in open conflict with Gondor until Sauron returned, but those lands had been lost a long time ago due to Gondorian decline.
It is the same in Eriador, where in the 1,200 years between Arnor's fall and the War of the Ring, no middle men kingdoms arose, and the lands were sparsely populated, despite the Shire and Bree showing that most of it would have been perfectly good land to form a bunch of petty kingdoms on.
This video was excellent, thank you so much for making it!
i was literally wondering about this last night... youtube works in mysterious ways
I blame the Hobbits for the fall of Arnor, there terrible singing drove all numernorians away, it was so bad in fact the Witch king destroyed Arnor to shut them up but he failed because Gondor had to get in the way.
I just found your channel and I am enjoying it very much! Thank you for making these videos!
Also, Arnor may be influenced by Scotland &/or the Scottish Highlands. This thought just occurred to me as I listened to your description of the geography of Arnor
Video lengths are perfect.
Hello! I actually subscribed yesterday!
Arnor is the WRE to Gondor's ERE
I approve of this. You did a good job.
Lands that will become kingdom of Gondor were already full of Numenoreans by the time Elendil comes with his sons... I think this was more important than the fact that middle Men were friendly to them... Dol Amroth, Pelargir, Osgiliath probably had mostly Dunedain/Numenorean populations when Elendil came. Edhelond could have had some mixture of Sindar and Numenorean population. Minas Anor and Minas Ithil were founded by Elendil's sons so again two cities full of Dunedain. Lamedon and Linhir could have had mixed population of Middle Men and Numenoreans at that time... my point being Gondor had much more Dunedain(even if they mixed with Middle men in later ages) than Arnor... and these were formidable foes for any enemy even in small numbers...
When it devolved into 3 Kingdoms 2 parties probably left the capital with large hosts making the large city impractical to defend so the remaining people also left.
I like this video it matches my thoughts on the matter.
Loved the video man, one more speculation from me,perhaps? I think your first reason of the natives not liking the Dunedain was the most important,as well as the fact (not sure IF it's a fact,but if memory serves I read it somewhere in the appendices) that the northern Dunedain refused to mingle with the local population, unlike their southern kin, wanting to keep their bloodline pure. On the one hand that gave us a pure blooded numenorian king in the fourth age, who lived a looong and happy life (though his wife may have sth to say about that),but on the other the Witch-king didn't even have to assail Bree since his goal was to destroy the Dunedain, not ravage people who could later be brought into the fold (like rhudaur or even dunland in the later third age).
i really really enjoy your videos and your approach, i love men of the west and geekzone but this is new and fresh
Also remember Osgiliath was the capital of Gondor and they likely had tremendous economic benefits from trade. Nothing like that sort of trade route existed in the north. Tharbad is the closest analog. The blue mountains and Harland and Mithlond likely didn’t trade enough to keep things going. Also Gondor had the fiefdom of Dol Amroth.Arnor never had as strong a neighbor.
An excellent analysis, I've enjoyed very much and agree on everything you said!
That was a great Video, you put really effort into. Could you make a video what happend if Sarumans Uruks took Frodo and Sam and brought them to orthanc without getting attacked by eomer?
Would Saruman still attack Rohan? Would Sauron attack Isengart immediately and with which force? Who would have won and what would the free peoples do in that kind of situation?
Do we think the Dunedain rangers did not have big families and many died early on ranging trips? The Grey company is absolutely tiny.
One of the things I notice historically is the shrinking populations are exclusive, but growing populations inclusive. Differences between Spartan citizenship and Roman citizenship.
Certainly seems like the ranger life isn’t exactly fit for being much of a family man: Semi-nomadic, often solitary and stealthy warriors out in the bush for long durations.
Great video. This is a shame for Arnor. They needed to make tens of thousands of babies ones they arrived.
this is a great video! keep it up
Perfect time to grow the Channel with lotr tv series and MMO coming in the future! Content for days
In Tolkien's world Quality of Blood line matters a lot. Its not the War of Last Alliance, but the Disaster of Gladden Field from which Arnor has never recovered. It was told that in Arnor lost most of its highest quality men there, most probably half of the number landed with Elendil died. So not only their number dwindled so also the "proper Numenorean bloodline"
Tolkien doesn't seem to go for the idea of upward social mobility to enlarge or replace higher social classes, much. The one exception that I can think of is Sam Gamgee.
Nice ramble !
Yeah I just subscribed like 2 days ago and already have a new video up
You should remake some of your older videos there are hard to watch because of the old mike but the content is really great
Another thing is that Gondor's population was replenished by Northmen after the Kin-strife, (Eldacar had brought many Northmen to Gondor). This might have brought their lifespans down, but it presumably allowed the Gondorians multiply faster than the more long lived Arnorians. Also, it seems like the inhabitance in Arnor don't know how to settle new land very, I mean the Shire, Bree, Dunland, and the Rangers had thousands of years after the Angmar War to resettle Eriador, but none of them ever did.
Yes I do read it as Arnold,the one and only , consequently it confuses me for a good bit of seconds.
Arnor was once a great kingdom . The wars with the witch king destroyed Arnor. Arthedain was left with just a few rangers roaming the Wild, cardolan was destroyed and Rhudaur became spooky due to the nine being buried in tombs so dark, that light would never come to them
I know compared to many of your other videos, these numbers would be rather small but would you consider doing a video on the strength of the northern rangers? I believe its said that 30 travelled to depend minas tirith and that others were not able to be summoned on short notice. I also have a few questions concerning them that I cant seem to find definitive answers too, such as are there any permanent settlements for these peoples (Ive heard people mention a few on the Angle of Rhudaur)? Are their other peoples in eriador that the rangers protect, other then in bree-land or the shire? And from the last question, Tolkien seemed to have an affinity for partially abandoned settlements, such as the grey mountains where its suggested some dwarfs remained, it has also been suggested that some dwarves remain in the ruins of Belegost and Nogrod, do you think that any of the ancient cities of Arnor and the later kingdoms that may still have populations, If so would the rangers protect or interact with them, possibly even combining strength in times of war to support their declining numbers? and finally Ive heard people references the chieftains of the rangers and tribal elements, are their multiple groups of rangers in the north? if their are, are any named and how are they different? I know this is a pretty long question, but Id appreciate any insight you'd have, thanks.
Video on the Northern Dunedain will be coming soon. As for their permanent settlements, none are given - the Angle in Rhudaur is a hypothesis, but it's not canon (not mentioned in primary sources). As for ruined cities in Arnor, I doubt there were people living there on a permanent basis. Tharbad was the last city to have some inhabitants, but that was deserted about 80 or so years before the Lord of the Rings. It's mentioned that the Rangers would sometimes visit Fornost (and possibly the same for Annuminas), but it isn't said that they lived there or any other static settlement. As for the Rangers, they're one group answering to one lord. No tribes as far as we know. Presumably, Aragorn would have lieutenants such as Halbarad who might lead different groups, such as the one that battled the Nazgul at Sarn Ford, but in the end, they're all answerable to Aragorn.
@@DarthGandalfYT but it's said in Nature of Middle Earth that the Dúnedain dwelt in the Angle, and if I recall it rightly, they dwelt closer to the Hoarwell, and Arador was living in the Trollshaws close to the Hoarwell, but north of the Hills of Rhudaur.
@@anti-liberalismo I believe that comment was made before NoMe came out. And I actually missed the note about Arador's house in the Coldfells in my first read.
Based on illustrations alone, Gondor looked more powerful and impressive, but Arnor looked more beautiful, full of meadows, streams, and lakes, and it was close to Lindon, and Rivendell. It's really unfortunate.
No problem, 10/10 would sub again
i was thinking: the Dúnedain provided the hobbits with food during the Fell Winter of 2912, how would they feed such a huge population of Hobbits since they were so presumably so few? I believe they have grown more numerous during the time between the Fall of Fornost and the end of the third age
Love the clips from LOTRO.
starvation as u put a picture off gollum up lmfao
just upload more because i use this genre of video as asmr and your accent is not annoying lmao.
What I've always wondered is where did the surviving Dunedain of Arnor live after TA 1975? They clearly needed somewhere safe for their families so my guess is that lived somewhere in Forlindon and/or Harlindon as that was a safe place and the only other people living there were Elves.
The only evidence we have is a barely legible note that Tolkien wrote when writing the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn. It suggests that the Dunedain lived between the Mitheithel and the Bruinen, in the area known as "The Angle".
@@DarthGandalfYTThat always seemed a strange place to settle. The only plus I can see is being close to Rivendell. It's not a pleasant and fertile region from what I remember.
Hey, I always wondered how many nothern dunedains were there in the time of the war of the ring, what is your guess ? i think several hundreds max few thousands (including children and women)... thank you, it might be topic for one of your videos 😅
Less than 10k...
a few hundred if there lucky, dunedain where only a small band of rangers by the end of the third age.
HistoryFan476ad I know
@@nearbypc8314 Good you know.
Evidence suggests they were not a few rangers, they might be in the tens of thousands
I think the think that would benefit you the most would be a new microphone!
The question that intrigues me is this: If there were less than 2000 Dúnedain left in Arnor at the start of the Fourth Age (including women and children). Then how did Aragorn reconstitute and rebuild the northern kingdom? Was Arnor a kingdom in name only? Where would he find men to restart communities in Arnor. Was immigration encouraged from Gondor? Who became the new permanent inhabitants of Annuminas? To be the effective capital of Arnor it would need people living there. I suppose in the end we will never know.
There were also several thousand Bree-landers that would be part of the kingdom. Immigration from Gondor might have been encouraged, but either way I imagine it would have been a very slow start for Arnor in the Fourth Age.
@DarthGandalfYT I wholeheartedly agree. If you could get 100 families around Annuminas and they are free from war I can see things going well. Other than common grey wolves, the predator count should be low. It depends on whether the site of families matches standard human families in our medieval period. If they actually start having a minimum of 5 or 6 children each, then population growth will take off. It's only a problem if they continue to only have 1-3 children maximum and they continue the Numenorean tradition of having children late in life.
I believe I read somewhere that Aragorn used Annimunas as the Capital of the reunited Kingdom for a short time, and left Gondor to Steward Faramir to see the day to day management.
Hopefully you make a video about the other battles during the war of the ring aside from those featured in the trilogy
Did Tolkien ever specify the dispute between the three brothers in 861 TA that led to Arnor splitting into Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur?
In reference to no enemies attacking across the Anduin river, you forgot the invasion of Orcs in 2509 of the Third age when the Rohirrim came south and helped a Gondorian army destroy the Orcs at the Battle on the Field of Celebrant.
After abandoning Fornost after the defeat in 1975 TA, where do you think the main population areas of Dunedain in Arnor were? I always thought they were between the Shire and Lindon although, I have never seen a comment from Tolkien or his son as to where they thought the Dunedain lived?
Just a small problem I think 1:45 Gondor covers all the southern slopes of white mountains
I think those parts are more like tribute states or vassals.
Excellent video/
The greatness of the numenorean colonies of Eriador were probably very much based on trade with the homeland.
But why would arnorians choose to have reproduce less than gondorians even though they're from the same stock
That actually made me laugh out loud nice one
Dunedains of Gondor had the same problem, even though their numbers were higher. But native population in Gondor was a lot bigger and they mixed with Dunedains a lot more. Dunedains married late and had few children, they tend not to remarry. New generations of Dunedains were small and far apart, beside their losses in war and plague were very high.
If the Witch King was just out to end the royal line of Arnor, it makes sense he was satisfied with destroying the capital of Fornost.
In a nutshell they started fighting among themselves; split into three nations and the dark powers picked them off one by one.
Why didn’t Gondor attempt to rebuild Arnor after the wars of Angmar? Gondor had sent a powerful army north to defeat the witch but afterwards it seems they just left leaving their kinsmen to ruin. The house of Anárion (dynasty of Gondor) didn’t even bother offering their cousins the House of Elendil sanctuary I’m Gondor the only reason that comes to mind is perhaps by this time the house Elendil had already gone into hiding as chief tans of the Dunedin rangers and therefore could not be found by Gondor. Another possible reason was taking the future of Gondor into consideration by having two related royal lines in one kingdom how long would this kinship last until both houses start competing with each other for the throne of Gondor. Lines would be drawn about who is more worthy to rule and therefor Gondor would probably endure years of division and civil war that had torn Arnor to sunders.
I imagine a lot of it came down to Aranarth's decision to not rebuild the Northern Kingdom, and go into hiding instead. Gondor might've been able to help rebuild the kingdom, but Aranarth clearly didn't think it was worth rebuilding. I'd also like to think that Malbeth's prophecies played a part in Aranarth's decision-making.
And your point about competing royal lines is a good one. We already had the earlier example of Arvedui's claim being rejected, so it was clear that Isildur's line was seen as secondary in Gondor. Even after Earnur's death, there were still descendants of Anarion floating around, but none of them had a strong enough claim. I doubt they would've sat idly by as an heir of Isildur, a guy who had spent his entire life in the north, simply waltzed in and took the throne. Obviously, circumstances were different by the War of the Ring, but yeah, back then civil war was a real threat.
a question. i have and a video might be cool but was emigration and immigration and refugee and stuff like that a thing that went on. and did any outliers of any race swap side or join their enemies during any of these wars
Speculative..... that's where I'm at in certain areas of The Ages. I'm looking forward to alternative insights into the stories of (Middle Earth).
What a mic drop 😂
At the beginning of the Third Age what the Dunedain in Arnor needed to do is breed like rabbits for a few generations which would've sorted out its population issues.
You forgot the disaster of the Gladden fields where most of Arnors returning army from the last alliance was ambushed and killed. This severely reduced the arnorian population, which highly supports your points :)
I'd say Gladden Fields was more of a leadership loss than anything. Isildur's company only consisted of 200 knights, but these guys were likely high-ranking officers and of pure Numenorean blood.
Your right, my memory was incorrect :)
@@DarthGandalfYT I did manage to find the reference that I was thinking of, and as you rightly so corrected me on it was not the Gladden Fields disaster. I was thinking of the loss of life during the war of the last alliance, which severely reduced Arnors population due to the number of casualties. This is mentioned in the unfinished tales alongside the gladden fields disaster, hence my mixup of the details ^_^ This still supports your points and makes Arnors situation look even more dire at the onset of the third age. Keep up the good work, as I am very much enjoying the speculations :)
8:13 This is what always annoys me. It's a fantasy setting it works differently''
Ugh no that doesn't work like that, just because it's a fantasy does it mean they can turn of gravity when it pleases them ?
You have to work within the laws of the world and one of which if you can't just pull a bunch of food outta thin air.
an escape from reality, thanks
after playing northern dunedaine in tw medieval 2 TA 4.5, any army consisting of more than 10 units, is big. not that they would matter, arrows kill everything, but i just cant expand...
General Kenobi...
The depopulation of middle earth is one of the biggest issues in the LOTR. Vast tracts of fertile land existing uninhabited for thousands of years is unrealistic. It was two thousand years from the beginning of the third age to the fall of Arnor, in that time period german tribesman chasing pigs through the forests went to become the nation Germany is today. Arnor has no excuses.
Those tribesmen also became the nations of England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, and France. By extension, they also started the modern nations of the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. A lot can be done in a couple of thousand years (1500 really).
Logistics porn, I love it. Best video on your channel.
Excellent series of analyses so far. Shame about the potato microphone.
Why did Gandalf the Grey never bothered to help save Arnor from Angmar?
He might have helped them. Gandalf's whereabouts are unknown for much of the Third Age, so it's entirely possible he was aiding the Kings of Arnor in their struggles against Angmar. Evidently, if he did help, then his help was not enough.
I always for some reason thought Arnor was stronger compared to gondor being not at war from all sides and being larger, until it got split ofcourse.
Then that dunedain where still in Eriador not in gondor so i thought there was more numenorians there than gondor had but got exterminated and much of the people of Eriador by the witch king.
Then that the witch king was just a major threat and a great general.
Probably effected by me playing battle for middle earth rise of the witch king.
Did the Dunedain only have children once every 50 years or so? They seem to reach adulthood in the same amount of time as normal men, so how do we know they would only see one or two generations in a century? It could be the same number, but with all the generations overlapping in their lifespans.
Sorry for the late reply. Dunedain reached adulthood at the same time as normal men, but they usually had children far later in life, and the longer their lifespans at that point, the longer it took for them to have children. For example, Boromir was born when Denethor was 48, Aragorn was born when Arathorn was 58, Arveleg I was born when Argeleb was 83, Eldacar was born when Valandil was 98. So even lesser Dunedain were still having children much later.
As for overlapping generations, like in our own world, it was pretty rare for them to meet their great-grandfather. For example, Valandil died 31 years before Tarcil (his great-grandson) was born, and using a more recent example, Turgon died 25 years before Boromir (his great-grandson) was born.
that'ś great question, I never thought it but it's really important
5:38
"When Numenorians started becoming tyrannical towards the MIDDLE MEN of MIDDLE earth by giving them the MIDDLE FIN.."
Slow down mate😂
How many Dunedain rangers do you think there were? They seemed to have managed to successfully hold a defensive line of thousands of miles from Tharbad to Carn Dume. There must have been at least several thousand... Maybe the Rangers took your advice and had dozens of babies?😁
Sorry for the late reply. As for the Dunedain Rangers, several hundred at the minimum, maybe two thousand at most, which includes women and children too. There's two details that imply their numbers are really low - 1). The Sons of Elrond are only able to bring 30 Rangers south as past of the Grey Company. 2). When those Rangers leave, Saruman and his lackeys are able to invade the Shire with zero resistance.
The Rangers are a scattered, wandering people, but I doubt there were very many of them left by the War of the Ring.
Are you Hello Future Me?
Rhudaur will rise
A proposal for a what if. This in keeping with the theme of tne video. Using the Great Plague of 1636 in the Third Age, we increase the range of this plague. The South & East as well as the West. To keep this short, with not many of Men serviving, what did Sauron need Men for? Oh dear, dark creatures on a hosti.e take over!
Population growth is not as simple, especially over long eons of time. Look at the populations in many countries today compared to say 100 years ago. Even loosing every male between 16 and 48 in a war doesn't necessarily show 4 generations later. Human populations can have an astonishing ability to multiply given the right circumstances. A loss of men can even enhance this as women have to compete for them. Sickness is usually far more devastating than wars because it strikes children and women too and you can't really run and hide. If Arnor used women in war, or couldn't protect their female population, then that could have a serious dampening on demographic recovery. The number of females is much more important here than the number of men. Unless a strong cultural practice have an impact too. Stress, uncertainty, danger, these are of course things that can effect reproduction abilities on a personal level and a society in duress, not just from large invasions but raids, could have such effects. A dominant marshal culture, centered on ethnicity, making up the socioeconomic hierarchical structure of society, could of course also play a huge part. See I don't really believe Arnor fell as much as I believe the numenorean elite fell. Eriador is a region lacking authority, not so much lacking people. The very idea of restoring the kingdom would have been laughable if there was solely complete desolation. I believe Arnor failed because of failure to integrate its various peoples into one society. I think the Dunedain saw themselves as the warriors, and the rest were their workers. The Breelanders obviously don't like the rangers f ex. While I wouldn't suggest straight out slavery, even living as a 2nd class citizen, forced to work a specific farm as was common in medieval and even earlier places, must naturally have been problematic for middle men looking at starting a family. And if the orcs came, whilst the blood of numenor rode into battle, the middle men took to the hills, the woods, the marshes. Where they have probably remained, challenged yet surviving, whilst elves, hobbits and dunedain took very if any notice of them. By the time of the Hobbit and LOTR, Bilbo and Frodo respectively describe at least the lands surrounding Bree as decently farmed before gradually dwindling eastwards. Only Rhudaur is actually straight out described as being empty. Save for the Angle at the joint of the rivers, where the Dunedain apparently live. One can also ponder, who are all these southern folks coming up the greenway? Some look more foreign than others it seems, so are some simply farmers of Cardolan or where exactly do they come from? Aragorn also states he cannot really feed a party in the wild, suggesting the watch at Sarn Ford and other places have local support of some sort. All heroes except Sam are aristocracy, and it's about the High-Elves and their friends. That's the perspective these stories have. This is underlined by Gandalf hunting for Gollum, asking around among people who have seen a thief and murderer sneaking around, all apparently living in empty lands in the wilderness. In short, there are people still living in Arnor. They just lack a government.
How about just reading the book and the appendices? There's a million of these lore videos for people who don't like reading. The entire history of Gondor and Arnor is very simply outlined right there at the end of the trilogy:
APPENDIX A: ANNALS OF THE KINGS AND RULERS
APPENDIX B: THE TALE OF YEARS
Dozens of babies? Why not like 40 or 50 that would only be roughly 100 of your 200-300 year life spans
More losses at battles of last Alliance