@@user-gw6mc1lz6n I get it though....aziz is another name for allah....lol. Alyami is ok i guess....hes "might" be ok...i think hes from Saudi Arabia...but he means alot to the smash community. Im still against islamization....fro hundreds of reasons...but fine.
Glad you pointed out the difference between degeneracy and over-centralization. Something being broken does not equate to a lack of skill. Spacie's shine is an obvious example.
@@TheGamer801 another good point. Invincible ledgedash up smash and the like is pretty dumb, but at least it's an interactive technique that's difficult to perform consistently. It's used to take back stage control, which is a part of the neutral game.
@@Pan_Z and it only allows you to get back on stage. If the player is good, he will not challenge the invincible ledge dash and take advantage of center stage control.
It's probably at least partly because M2K has been soft-retired from Melee while he writes his book/streams. I saw plenty of people criticizing him for timing out Westballz, and I'm sure if M2K was back and camping we'd get plenty of that mentioned in the current LGL discussion
@@JustHANO Exactly, hate the ruleset, not the people who abuse it. If anything I wish Hbox planked more often so people realized how strong it really is
Very well articulated. Drawing in the parallel between other ban worthy techniques and ledgestalling/planking was definitely eye opening. I was on the fence before but im a full proponent of the ban especially if it only matters if the set goes to time.
jelloSG I never really liked the limit because it always felt like it was targeting puff, and when I heard about it the context was to limit puff only. This video addresses it the right way tho, it’s not puff that’s a problem but the strategy in general.
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII yeah, the community in general doesn't use planking because they care for that juicy neutral into fancy punishes. However, if more people start utilizing planking effectively either the game will die or the community will finally see the truth
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII if a character is fucked up, it deserves to be targeted. freeze glitch, side b under stage, bomber stall, these are all character specific techniques that needed removed. you shouldnt need to point out that jigglypuff isnt the only problem to realize she is the poster child of realistic planking that puts her at a huge advantage compared to the approaching opponent.
bruce You’re right but Jiggs shouldn’t be the poster child of planking. Imo, by all accounts, Shiek has the better planking. Up - B ez as hell to time compared to consecutive fade-away jumps, Fair stoopid off ledge, Nair stoopid off ledge, and has the better ledgedash.
I feel like the easiest and quickest way to have this issue dealt with is to have a high rated pro who supports the ledge grab limit run through a whole tournament planking on purpose. Really prove to everyone it needs to change. Assuming that planking is as good a strategy as we think it is, the only issue i see with that is that the pro might receive some ire about it, but that just means they would need to make it super clear on twitter and other social media that they are planking on purpose and for a reason. Sure people can complain about it but that's the point.
That is a valid approach, considering it has been done before. Players relying on a strategy for a underutilised but overcentralizing strategy simply to prove a point. It's how they got the Timer modded into Smash 64.
Ian M hbox already does this whenever he starts losing against any captain falcon player, your idea is pretty bad seeing we already have the evidence needed but the community refuses to act
@@Kimjoelun apples and oranges, bruh. The variable in question is the person performing the glitch. "how dare you try and take away MY right to not play the game." which is to say that the person performing a glitch isn't playing. When they are playing the game. They are just preventing the other person from also playing.
perfect video essay - literally the gold standard. i wish more content like this came out of the melee communities, and also other games too. really outstanding and important work you've done here
The fundamental point of only applying the ledge grab limit if the match goes to time is sufficiently compelling that I can't think of a way for this rule to invalidate non-degenerate forms of ledge stalling. However, there are some other potential issues. For instance, imagine aMSa throws a lot of eggs in a particular game from the ledge; he isn't counting because he thinks it won't go to time, but the other player is counting. The moment aMSa goes over the limit, the other player starts camping. This isn't a reason not to implement the rule, but it is a necessary consideration before going right ahead.
@Adam Evening he literally wants it for every character. And hbox has shown he doesnt need ledge grabbing. He just wants a tactic that is nearly unbeatable for some characters. I cant believe how dumb you have to be to actually believe he wants to just nerf puff, the reason he first talked about lgl way back in 2011 was m2k. Not hbox
You know at first I wasn't in favor for a ledge grab limit because it didn't seem like too much of a problem but I am now for it and understand how it's more problematic.
even as someone who doesn’t play melee, this is educational as hell and promotes a way of thinking that can be applied to other fighting games. great video!
This is guy has a good point, what has always thrown me off in smash is how can this game be competitive if you have to implement outside rules in order to balance the game. i would hear how balance this older game is but then you see cracks like these and wonder was this ever really meant for competitive play. Like the people who defend wobbling are beyond me
well, it could just be left unbalanced, like marvel... But the difference is that marvel was degenrate, fast and entertaining. Apart from wobbling, these strategies dont lead to a wincon other than time or a concession from the opponent
@@yaboi6851 why the hell would you watch something that you dont even know anything about? It really goes to show how the millions of braindead youtube kids are so easily entertained. Gold fish attention spans, all of them. It such a waste if time to watch stuff you are uninformed about
M2K saying that he will quit Melee entirely if tournaments ban ledge-camping is one of the most hilariously pathetic, childish things I’ve seen in the competitive Smash scene overall. How can he call himself a true pro if he HAS to rely on cheap tactics like that?
i really appreciate the simple organization here, and how you discussed what it is, what your case is, why ledge grabs should be made. made the video very simple to follow.
Not sure where I stand on the issue just yet. But I did just realize it may be possible that part of the reason players don’t plank very often in general is because doing so increases the likelihood of these discussions happening and it getting banned. Basically, if you don’t plank often and it’s not banned, you can save having it as an option for when you really need it to win.
Considering the fact that the two big pro moments mentioned in this video were while they "had their backs against the wall" I'd say that you have a very plausible point.
@@nmfff I think its also worth noting that it may not be intentionally dirty by "hiding" it but instead they would rather NOT have to resort to planking as planking is a very unfun strategy, and so when they CAN win without it they attempt to. And only use planking when they need to in order to win not so that it wont get banned, but because its one of the least fun ways to play and so thus is only used as a last resort when all else fails. So its not necessarily a nefarious reason why its not used to avoid getting it banned, but rather a more simple reason of that its just not fun so they avoid it unless necessary. Just a thought.
I don't play any smash competitively and this man still got me to watch a 25 minute video on changing the rules by having such a reasonable argument and well presented case.
I really appreciate this. You talk about ideas that I have felt, but could not articulate nearly as well. I think it was particularly important that you analyzed both the planking mechanics advantage of jiggs and that theoretically use of planking should be over centralized in certain matchups.
Leffen's comment to Hax from 2011 lmao. For all that he's improved, he 100% still makes arguments like this. I've seen people recently show his early Ult opinions were way off, which would be fine, if he didn't push them forward so aggressively & then mock anyone who dared question him. I get that he's playing up to a crowd, but that shit's so lame.
Said this in another reply: It's not even that he has an opinion, it's that he'll straight up tell you you're a fucking idiot for believing anything else even when half his opinions don't age well. Doesn't learn a damn thing lmao
@@and...and.. Well here's the thing man - I don't think he wants to 'learn'. He likes to see himself as a strong critic, as the guy who gives opinions on everything. So he puts those opinions in a harsh manner because he's doing it for a crowd. He can take criticism pretty well I think, but if you counter something he said, he'll often go to make a fool out of you. I've seen it on his streams, in his tweets etc. tl;dr he likes to respond in bad faith if you question him.
Fantastic video overall. The definitions put out in the video describing melee's metagame structure are extremely informative while being basic to understand. I would suggest that a ledge grab limit applies even if the game does not go to time because a player can gain so much advantage from planking no matter the timer situation as well as that it will still halt the neutral game. For example, if a jigglypuff is planking against a captain falcon, the only decision that the captain falcon can choose to effectively win the game is to completely avoid the traps the puff will set up whilst planking, which will most likely cause the falcon to sit in the middle or end of the stage doing nothing until the timer runs out; therefore halting the amount of neutral that will be available for the falcon to play without playing the "minigame" that puff applies that puts him at a huge disadvantage due to the degeneracy of the tactic. This puts puff at a huge advantage because she will be able to dictate if the match will go to time or not as well as dictate the neutral game due to this bad mechanic. The optimal response to planking would be to not interact with it if this ruleset is applied which eradicates the original purpose of a ledge grab limit which is to stop degeneracy and allow melee's natural concepts of neutral and punish game to shine. A jigglypuff using the ledge for however long she likes just in case a falcon slips up and puts themselves in a disadvantage and then playing "normally" will still be possible. In the games that you used as examples, only one of them went to time.
Interesting and well thought out video. I'm somewhat interested in the way the LGL is implemented though, i.e., only in the case of timeout. We may see more timeouts as Hbox times out Amsa for egg stalling or something like that. Where he has no intention of winning the game or even having the % lead at the end, he just needs a timeout at any cost to win. Overall though I agree with you and think the LGL is healthy for the game just to discourage the technique.
This is a very good point that needs to be addressed. While I agree that some kind of rule should be put in place, this kind of a rule might only serve to increase degenerate play.
@@supercereal522 He is being a degen, but I'm saying this will lead to more timeouts. I would prefer a higher LGL where even if the game doesn't go to time if a player grabbed ledge more than x number of times they lose. That way we can keep fighting instead of trying to force a timeout. Like imagine this scenario, hbox realizes that amsa has grabbed the ledge 60 times on his first stock, they both have 4 left, and there is 6 min left in the game. Hbox now has to completely avoid Amsa for 6 min in order to win and get the timeout. Since the % doesn't matter and he literally just needs the game to go to time at all cost, the optimal strategies will all involve wasting time and running away, which just increases degeneracy. Not saying I disagree with Hax, just a point I think should be addressed.
Bobbino so a strategy that involves attempting to discourage people breaking the LGL is a bad thing? Why is it all the sudden bad when hbox is trying to punish someone else for planking when it’s banned? See this is why nobody takes the melee community serious you guys are a bunch of idiots. “It’s okay for amsa to plank but not hbox because yay amsa”
Only thing i disagree with is LGL being ignored in case of both players exceeding it. Having the traditional rule where the one with the most grabs loses, forces them to approach, which is what we want after all.
Blackout987 i disagree because that means that if someone goes over the ledgegrab limit then their opponent can just ledgestall for slightly less time at the end of the match, even if theyre losing
Then, in the hypothetical situation of a match where both players recur to planking, why not make both forfeit? That would make sure NO ONE IN A TOURNAMENT recurs to planking, not just one participant out of the two, or, for that matter, both. That would certainly encourage interaction and disencourage degenerate and over-centralising techniques.
e x p a n s i o n p a k No it wouldnt lmao have you ever heard of a BYE? In thos case some players would get a BYE round because both of their would-be opponenents decided to exceed the LGL
e x p a n s i o n p a k Nobody is going to be keeping a total count on how many times their opponent is LG’ing for a given match. But in the rare case that this does happen then the LG’ing player should be given an L in that set outright and it really doesnt matter what the non LG’ing player was doing
This was extremely well-written. Thank you very much for your words.
11 дней назад
The biggest problem with this happening is that the majority of the community will gloss over the fact it COULD BE overcentralizing to say that it isn’t, because the only person who even really TRIES planking anymore is hbox and that’s not even often.
just as an add up. If we go and legalize LGL by time, I think time should also be reduced that way the player who is re-grabbing the ledge has less time to do so and is incentivized to get away from the ledge.
I find the “only if it goes to time” idea very interesting... Because, for example, if you’re losing and the opponent is planking and you think they broke the ledge limit, then suddenly your win condition entirely changes. You no longer care about trying to beat the opponent, but instead your goal is simply to live until the timeout happens. In that way, it then incentivizes you to camp your opponent until time out. That being said, I still fully believe that this idea is absolutely better than no idea, and an argument can easily be made that camping is only incentivized when camping already exists (which is true). Idk, it’s just something to think about :)
The idea is that your opponent would also have the ledge grab-limit in mind and not risk it by planking. People can reasonable grab the ledge more than 20 times in a match without planking. If they're the one using the stall tactic then they're the one knowingly violating a rule.
I understand, but if you go into a match expecting that this might happen to you (for example, Wizzy thinking that HBox would likely do this), it’s quite possible to count one’s own and opponent’s total ledge grabs. If you know how many times you grab a ledge and continue to count it, you can approach but still stay below the limit. Also, if the opponent was planking for an extended period of time, that entire time you probably never grabbed the ledge, so your total grabs (before you would start counter planking) would be much below normal amounts.
I believe limiting ledge grabs would ultimately bring up more problems than it solves, as it would considerately reduce the recovery options and as a consequence make the edge guarding much less interesting. Players would constantly be worried about not exceeding the ledge grab count when recovering, which might lead them to make worse decisions in some instances. You might argue that this would be solved by making the ledge grab limit generous, but that would kinda defeat the purpose of the rule. Perhaps a better option would be simply to ban planking as a strategy itself, in which the way to enforce the ban would be to let the player who the strategy is being used against to call it out, then a judge warns the planking player, and if he keeps doing it after the warning he loses the set.
The caveat that it's ONLY used if it goes to time makes the whole argument perfect. It means it doesn't affect ANYONE that is not trying to time people out by sitting on the ledge. And it doesn't prevent ledge mechanics: you are still allowed to stall/ledge-camp as much as you want - just make sure that you finish the game, not hide out forever.
Looks like Hax was right 3 years ago and tourneys are just now starting to implement a LGL. Wonder what the future will hold in regard to his other arguments like the implementation of the Boxx and 1.03.
If you're forced to the edge of the stage, you've lost neutral. A Sumo Wrestler isn't rewarded for being knocked out of the ring. So why then is it that there are characters that are rewarded for being on the ledge and in a position to lose a stock, instead drawing strength from this disadvantageous state?
My biggest problem is saying "just because planking could or should over-centralize the meta game therefore we should, treat it like it IS over centralizing the meta." Melee just feels like all the community wants it to be is spacies dittos. It makes no sense to ban something in competitive gaming if only two people have ever really done it and have only done it in moderation when they did. If ledge camping becomes the one true meta then sure put a limit on ledge grabs or ban planking or whatever needs to be done, and I don't think experimenting with solutions is a bad idea but major tournaments aren't the place yet. At CEO for example, hbox only went to the ledge after wizzy showed he wanted to camp top platform. Hbox said "you want to camp then I'll out camp you no big deal" he didn't just ledge grab for the entire set or anything. While I agree that this could become a problem the community seems to largely reject the strategy, new players don't learn it because it's such a radical antithesis to the fast paced exciting gameplay of melee, vets don't use it because it's boring and they feel like they're above using it and it isn't an instant win condition like wobbling. Until someone does something absolutely ridiculous with it I don't think it deserves a hefty ban or limitation Edit: I know you talk about peer pressure but it's a bigger role than we all give it credit for. Melee players make a living on this game and if it dies so does their income in large part, I know lots of them stream or do RUclips nowadays but tournament revenue is still a big portion of top players' income. They aren't going to do something that they all know will result in melee finally fading away because it'll be seen as a boring, repetitive, lesser version of ultimate or whatever smash game is out if melee makes it to the next one. This in itself makes top players, even hbox king of ledge camping, hesitate to use it to its full potential. I don't think this is a problem right now in melee but I understand the concerns with it as a whole, I just think preemptive large scale bans would ultimately push the meta more towards 20XX when every other character gets thrown out of meta because of said bans or limitations Edit2: also one thing that would make a ledge grab limit difficult is just normal recovery, if we're going only based on number of times the ledge is grabbed then theoretically you'd have a match where a player is knocked off stage, could easily recover, but doing so would put them over the limit thus forfeiting them the match right? Unless ledge grab limits would only work for time out matches but why not just ban stalling in a more strict sense, anyone obviously playing for a time out should just be disqualified for using broken game mechanics or have a melee "shot clock" that refuses to let players be outside of the neutral game for x amount of time or they forfeit the match. Both of those seem like a more reasonable solution than banning something no one even does and it would help combat all forms of camping and not just planking
About the rules, i agree with everyting except the part where braking the lgl only represents a lose if the game goes to time. A player can plank and still win a game after taking all four stocks of his opponent's, the over centrilizing strategy its still being used on those cases, and it kinda defeats the purpose of the rule. Other than that awesome video, much love hax
The idea is that it shifts the burden from non-planker to planker. Without a LGL, the planker simply waits on the ledge until timeout while dodging attacks and refreshing invincibility. With a LGL, the planker can't refresh their invincibility forever, so it opens them up to being poked by the non-planker.
I wonder if there would be a way to count ledge grabs on the actual screen (maybe near percentage) using slippi. That would get rid of the concern of miss counting or forgetting the issue of the ledge grab limit.
He meant in the middle of the game, for the players. So you can know if you or your opponent has passed the limit. This is very valuable mid game knowledge.
Also, now that I’m thinking about it, I think slippi couldn’t be used to do this, but maybe some actual mod similar to ucf? Idk, I’m not nearly smart enough to do something like this but I’m sure someone is
just a thought: if there is ever going to be a rule like "has to ledge grab less than 100 times", it should also take the other player's ledge grabs into consideration. If you have a scenario of one player has 99 ledge grabs and the other has 101, it would be stupid to punish the 101 player just because he has 2 more ledge grabs
I feel offended as a doc main that you didn't include doc extended ledge stall in the graph since it's also an invincible ledge stall... but this is still a good video
Zelda has one too, but if you go back he said "of the 11 characters considered viable", so he probably doesn't want to talk about every character in the game
@@cuno6118 Doc is in mid tier with pika/yoshi/samus so he's considered in the ''viable tier'' he's on the very edge but still, zelda is low tier. He doesn't really go indepth about how the ledge stall is done so why include them but not him since he's talking about a tas execution... then again those 11 characters have more turney results so i guess they have more attention :/
Part of the problem with that is having to always actively be counting how many times someone is grabbing the edge, instead of just being able to check after the game. You can't put the counting on the person planking for obvious bias reasons, and you can't assume that a TO will watch every game to count for you. People would argue that someone miscounted, etc. Plus, what allows you to start grabbing the ledge again? Is it just touching the stage? That would mean that a character with a good hax dash can essentially still plank. If it's a time limit, that's now hard to adjudicate again because we'd have to decide who is responsible. I like the idea of 5 ledgegrabs in a row, but it's actually not simple to implement.
Can you please do this on every subject imaginable? Thoughts on competitive Smash 64 and current meta, Which game handles the ledge mechanics the best? Can the Marios and Ganon break through to higher tiers like Pikachu and Yoshi? If you had to rebalance the Melee roster what would you do? Would having no stage hazards in Melee allow for more stages? Hotdogs vs Hamburgers match up break down, who wins neutral?
Degenerate Normie: Ugh, why are so many stages and items banned? Game is no fun! *Gets circle camped on Temple* Ugh, why is this crap allowed? Game is no fun! In all seriousness, this is a very well thought out video. It never really crossed my mind to how bad ledge stalling actually was. I always thought staying on the edge was just another strat I had to deal with, and I even got around it in some points.
I think the crux of his argument is that at top level play there is very little one can do against this technique without playing Marth, Sheik, or Jigglypuff. I think it's a pretty good idea, and easily enforceable.
Great job. Was a bit worried this would be one of those extraordinarily excessive rants when it was in my recommended, but it made perfect use of the time. Hopefully people listen.
the only problem with that in a game like melee, is that the oppressor could easily counter that, if they know how many they’ve done, which shouldn’t be too hard, then they can almost guarantee a w in that situation. if they know they have to come back they can abuse the limit, and attack and force them back off
Melee players: we like this game because it's speedy and based on offense also melee players: use a mechanic to play the game slowly and ultra defensively
yoshi egg throws from the ledge comes to mind. from memory, seems like amsa would throw eggs from ledge until one connects or until he's taken enough space to freely ledgedash back to stage without being punished. doesn't seem like intention to avoid as it's offensive, like puff fair, but not nearly as rewarding and a missed input truly risks a stock loss.
Idk if anyone else thought this too, but I was thinking this whole “ledge grab limit” debate was actually about ledge REgrabbing. I feel like it would make more sense to enforce regrabbing ledge instead of overall ledge grabs.
I can see your guys' point about it being difficult to enforce. Is the current method to deal with the LGL to just wait until after the match and see the counter in the stats? If so, it would seem like more time consuming to find out the LGL rule was broken and the match had to be replayed or the player disqualified. I appreciate the discussion btw!
This is a great video with a wonderfully put together argument, I completely agree that jigglypuff should not be the only character to be affected by a ledgegrab limit. However, because she has the ability to abuse the broken risk reward scenario while grabbing the ledge less times than other characters which can abuse planking (due to her being able to spend multiple jumps with repeated fairs or baits offstage) would it not make sense to give a different ledgegrab limit for puff? This was something that the brawl community implamented when they instituted ledgegrab limits. The ledgegrab limit for metanight was lower than those for other characters because through multiple jumps and repeated up airs he was able to avoid the neutral game without grabbing the ledge as many times as other characters needed to.
I agree with this video completely. Nothing good comes from planking and no character should be allowed to plank and I want to see interesting counterplay to it.
best wat to limit it is You are only allowed 3 chain ledge grabs, after that you have to land or attempt to land into the stage, chain grabbing the ledge again will result in immediate stock loss
i think his point was more that if it's overcentralizing and degenerate, it NEEDS to be banned. not to say that degeneracy shouldn't be banned as well (wobbling rests entirely on its degeneracy and IMO it definitely should be banned)
?? So he made an elaborate 25 min video with very articulate points. And the only counter argument you have is : ''h-BoX iS jUsT tOo GoOd FoR yOu GuYs''
If the rule lies as the player must exceed ledge grabs, AND win via timeout there's no reason not to adopt something like that. It would be clearly focused on player's who are literally trying to avoid engagement because they aren't confident to defeat the other player. If it was a flat ledge grab limit I could see push back, but as long as exceeding the grab limit while also KO'ing the opponent still counts as a viable win then there's really no good excuse to oppose that rule. It's like the three board state repeat in chess if a player isn't willing to risk the game further than the game is already forfeit. Stalling is not outplaying someone else; it's admitting you can't win, and refusing to risk trying.
How is this even a debate. Any method that allows a player saying “This round is OVER” giving them the win because they got a slight advantage should be illegal. That isn’t fun.
The rule only applies to when someone breaks it and time goes out. Otherwise, the game plays the same. They don't prematurely end the game right there.
To play devil’s advocate, based on your argument that we shouldn’t consider infinite invincibility ledge stalling as an issue because of its high improbability of execution, it’s rather paradoxical in nature to partially base the reason to ban conventional ledge stalling on how overused it could or should be, as it’s also highly improbable that it’ll become overused. The only difference between the former and latter strategy is that the first one is limited by difficulty of execution (requiring frame-perfect input) and the second one is limited by peer pressure and social norms.
This is just so goddamn well-made. Completely agree with this, it’s frustrating having to fight planking, and it’s too degenerate to be legal. Great video Hax.
My mans did a 25 minute class presentation with NO group partners
Agnosticuzumaki I can’t express how much I love this comment! LMAO
Bruh thats an easy A- at least
Thank you Stawz for your brave work correcting peoples youtube comments
There were other members in the group, but they didn’t contribute any work. Of course.
Stawz not understanding vernacular is way more stupid than me saying mans
Every time I get wobbled I'm gonna complain about a tier 3 violation.
@@actualfactual8737 shut yo bitch ass up
Who pissed in your oatmeal my guy
@@bigboy2217 Actual Factual
@@actualfactual8737 ur right, degeneracy applies much better for someone like u
@@user-gw6mc1lz6n I get it though....aziz is another name for allah....lol. Alyami is ok i guess....hes "might" be ok...i think hes from Saudi Arabia...but he means alot to the smash community. Im still against islamization....fro hundreds of reasons...but fine.
Glad you pointed out the difference between degeneracy and over-centralization. Something being broken does not equate to a lack of skill. Spacie's shine is an obvious example.
Invincible Ledgedashes as well
@@TheGamer801 another good point. Invincible ledgedash up smash and the like is pretty dumb, but at least it's an interactive technique that's difficult to perform consistently. It's used to take back stage control, which is a part of the neutral game.
@@Pan_Z and it only allows you to get back on stage. If the player is good, he will not challenge the invincible ledge dash and take advantage of center stage control.
Next time someone says the game sucks cuz' it's broken, I'll just use this video and tell them that's not a bad thing.
@@actualfactual8737 Shut yo bitch ass up
Finally someone called out m2k for camping and not just hbox
It's probably at least partly because M2K has been soft-retired from Melee while he writes his book/streams. I saw plenty of people criticizing him for timing out Westballz, and I'm sure if M2K was back and camping we'd get plenty of that mentioned in the current LGL discussion
Well m2k argues for ledge limit because he thinks it's op on puff and really good. He knows its good so he's going to abuse it until it's banned.
@@JustHANO Exactly, hate the ruleset, not the people who abuse it. If anything I wish Hbox planked more often so people realized how strong it really is
@@Forthelemon yea i hate to see it, but i understand why they do it. Money is on the line and we're you're allowing it, its going to be used.
Evidently hax had been called out m2k for it, but dummies criticized him for it instead of hearing him out
this is arguably the greatest “i told you so see what i say” of all time
Very well articulated. Drawing in the parallel between other ban worthy techniques and ledgestalling/planking was definitely eye opening. I was on the fence before but im a full proponent of the ban especially if it only matters if the set goes to time.
jelloSG
I never really liked the limit because it always felt like it was targeting puff, and when I heard about it the context was to limit puff only. This video addresses it the right way tho, it’s not puff that’s a problem but the strategy in general.
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII yeah, the community in general doesn't use planking because they care for that juicy neutral into fancy punishes. However, if more people start utilizing planking effectively either the game will die or the community will finally see the truth
@@MrYoYoBoBoChaddyInsaneZhangII if a character is fucked up, it deserves to be targeted. freeze glitch, side b under stage, bomber stall, these are all character specific techniques that needed removed. you shouldnt need to point out that jigglypuff isnt the only problem to realize she is the poster child of realistic planking that puts her at a huge advantage compared to the approaching opponent.
bruce You’re right but Jiggs shouldn’t be the poster child of planking.
Imo, by all accounts, Shiek has the better planking. Up - B ez as hell to time compared to consecutive fade-away jumps, Fair stoopid off ledge, Nair stoopid off ledge, and has the better ledgedash.
@@t-mofisher8922 not at all dude lmfao
hax made documentaries instead of writing papers in high school
I feel like the easiest and quickest way to have this issue dealt with is to have a high rated pro who supports the ledge grab limit run through a whole tournament planking on purpose. Really prove to everyone it needs to change. Assuming that planking is as good a strategy as we think it is, the only issue i see with that is that the pro might receive some ire about it, but that just means they would need to make it super clear on twitter and other social media that they are planking on purpose and for a reason. Sure people can complain about it but that's the point.
Jigglypuff mains don't want to nerf themselves
That is a valid approach, considering it has been done before. Players relying on a strategy for a underutilised but overcentralizing strategy simply to prove a point. It's how they got the Timer modded into Smash 64.
Ian M hbox already does this whenever he starts losing against any captain falcon player, your idea is pretty bad seeing we already have the evidence needed but the community refuses to act
instead, a lowly scrub like me should practice my planking and attempt a big upset
Imagine being some guy out there defending no ledge limit
"How dare you try and take away my right to not play the game"
But it is part of the game.
@@omniferousswan593 so is the freeze glitch lmao
@@Kimjoelun yeah. You'd still be playing the game. I never said either should be allowed.
@@omniferousswan593 lmao if you get freeze glitched you'd be playing the game as much as a younger sibling with an unplugged controller
@@Kimjoelun apples and oranges, bruh. The variable in question is the person performing the glitch. "how dare you try and take away MY right to not play the game." which is to say that the person performing a glitch isn't playing. When they are playing the game. They are just preventing the other person from also playing.
Long overdue ruling to be implemented. Really like how he de-constructs banned techniques and re-constructs it for planking.
I did not realize this was haxmoney until 1:42 and I was already thinking this guy had a point
How do you not recognize that deep sultry voice
@@trashman1791 I recognized it after 1:42 XD
it literally says his full name on the channel
@@anasazilespider5574 I had no idea it was his name until after watching like 4 videos. I also never knew he had such a smooth voice
perfect video essay - literally the gold standard. i wish more content like this came out of the melee communities, and also other games too. really outstanding and important work you've done here
The fundamental point of only applying the ledge grab limit if the match goes to time is sufficiently compelling that I can't think of a way for this rule to invalidate non-degenerate forms of ledge stalling. However, there are some other potential issues. For instance, imagine aMSa throws a lot of eggs in a particular game from the ledge; he isn't counting because he thinks it won't go to time, but the other player is counting. The moment aMSa goes over the limit, the other player starts camping. This isn't a reason not to implement the rule, but it is a necessary consideration before going right ahead.
Very well thought out and logical
2:16
Oh how times have changed ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
"what are you gonna do, fair them" LOL
lmfao
Leffen was truly convinced that puff was gimpable back then huh
Poyo lul lffn
Leffen was wrong smh
This video is incredibly smart and persuasive.
Ronak Nair I see that EE profile pic. Respec.
Good album
@Adam Evening he literally wants it for every character. And hbox has shown he doesnt need ledge grabbing. He just wants a tactic that is nearly unbeatable for some characters. I cant believe how dumb you have to be to actually believe he wants to just nerf puff, the reason he first talked about lgl way back in 2011 was m2k. Not hbox
@Adam Evening did you even watch the fucking video. Im 90% sure you didnt. You saw the title and just assumed shit.
You know at first I wasn't in favor for a ledge grab limit because it didn't seem like too much of a problem but I am now for it and understand how it's more problematic.
I'm glad you picked Pink Falcon.
Somewhere, deep down, the old Hax is still there...
i live for hax money uploads
Lazy Lee is this THE Lazy Lee?
are you dead now?
2:17 LMFAO LEFFEN SAYING WE SHOULDINT HAVE LEDGE GRAB LIMIT LMAO
even as someone who doesn’t play melee, this is educational as hell and promotes a way of thinking that can be applied to other fighting games. great video!
This is guy has a good point, what has always thrown me off in smash is how can this game be competitive if you have to implement outside rules in order to balance the game. i would hear how balance this older game is but then you see cracks like these and wonder was this ever really meant for competitive play. Like the people who defend wobbling are beyond me
well, it could just be left unbalanced, like marvel... But the difference is that marvel was degenrate, fast and entertaining. Apart from wobbling, these strategies dont lead to a wincon other than time or a concession from the opponent
@@Hawko1313 The balance issues in marvel never needed outside intervention to this degree.
When you're salty, but also a scholar
I wish you had a twitch channel so I could support you. It would be so amazing to hear you talk about different subjects in melee on the regular
He does have one, though barely used.
Maybe he should get a PATROMON
I'm dying laughing that you are calling this tactic degenerate by definition
And you are totally right
Whats really degenerate, is that this ledge grab
imit is making us sound so nooby and bad at this game . Jist do the things people dislike!
He made up the definition though
I am in the picture at 9:54 and I have no idea how I have gotten here
We were looking for pictures of casual friendlies and we were getting desperate
Are you fox or falco?
You're sitting next to Elon Musk, nice!
@@saintsigma Alexa, search for pictures with "casual friendlies" + "super smash bros" + "eager" + "confused 5 years later".
So well put together watched the whole thing and dont even play
Hahaha damn
Ugh. Why are there so many youtube kids that don't even play this game?
@@EA_SP0RTCENTER they think its cool, who cares if they dont play
@@yaboi6851 why the hell would you watch something that you dont even know anything about? It really goes to show how the millions of braindead youtube kids are so easily entertained. Gold fish attention spans, all of them. It such a waste if time to watch stuff you are uninformed about
@JUAN CARRACEDO PRIETO here i am checking my notifications hoping someone had worthwhile to say.
sometimes I wonder how this game has managed to survive for so long with this kind of issues.
the melee playerbase is very VERY stubborn haha
can be a good thing, can be a bad thing, in this case obviously the latter
BC Melee: 15 Taunts in a row leads to a win for the game
Shit make it 7 lol
M2K saying that he will quit Melee entirely if tournaments ban ledge-camping is one of the most hilariously pathetic, childish things I’ve seen in the competitive Smash scene overall. How can he call himself a true pro if he HAS to rely on cheap tactics like that?
i really appreciate the simple organization here, and how you discussed what it is, what your case is, why ledge grabs should be made. made the video very simple to follow.
Not sure where I stand on the issue just yet. But I did just realize it may be possible that part of the reason players don’t plank very often in general is because doing so increases the likelihood of these discussions happening and it getting banned.
Basically, if you don’t plank often and it’s not banned, you can save having it as an option for when you really need it to win.
Considering the fact that the two big pro moments mentioned in this video were while they "had their backs against the wall" I'd say that you have a very plausible point.
@@nmfff I think its also worth noting that it may not be intentionally dirty by "hiding" it but instead they would rather NOT have to resort to planking as planking is a very unfun strategy, and so when they CAN win without it they attempt to. And only use planking when they need to in order to win not so that it wont get banned, but because its one of the least fun ways to play and so thus is only used as a last resort when all else fails.
So its not necessarily a nefarious reason why its not used to avoid getting it banned, but rather a more simple reason of that its just not fun so they avoid it unless necessary. Just a thought.
THANK YOU - Made a video on this and was waiting for someone else here on the RUclips Smash Community to step up to the plate.
I might be blind, but i can't find the video. What's the name of it?
yeah, u are spamin a lot of vids, cant find it
take a shot every time hax says degenerate
try that on leffen's stream too
im dead
Take a shot for every comment saying they didnt kniw it was hax
@@Thecreeperboombox Try that on mangos stream lol
take a shot for how many times hbox and m2k grabs the ledge
This man out here trying to scientifically quantify "degeneracy"
lol the spongebob tv at 9:58
And now there is a ledge grab limit, how times have changed.
i want no ledge grab limit i hate the ledge grab limit
As you can see, from the smashboards posts, those posts didn't age too well
I don't play any smash competitively and this man still got me to watch a 25 minute video on changing the rules by having such a reasonable argument and well presented case.
Well now that its 2020 and LGL is a thing, I think it is safe to say it was absolutely the right move
A limit of successive ledge grabs would be best, rather than a total ledge grab limit.
Based Hax Money telling us some facts
I really appreciate this. You talk about ideas that I have felt, but could not articulate nearly as well. I think it was particularly important that you analyzed both the planking mechanics advantage of jiggs and that theoretically use of planking should be over centralized in certain matchups.
Leffen's comment to Hax from 2011 lmao. For all that he's improved, he 100% still makes arguments like this. I've seen people recently show his early Ult opinions were way off, which would be fine, if he didn't push them forward so aggressively & then mock anyone who dared question him. I get that he's playing up to a crowd, but that shit's so lame.
Said this in another reply: It's not even that he has an opinion, it's that he'll straight up tell you you're a fucking idiot for believing anything else even when half his opinions don't age well. Doesn't learn a damn thing lmao
@@and...and.. Leff has the mentality that got Trump elected. Telling everyone they are a fucking idiot got them to vote red.
@@and...and.. Well here's the thing man - I don't think he wants to 'learn'. He likes to see himself as a strong critic, as the guy who gives opinions on everything. So he puts those opinions in a harsh manner because he's doing it for a crowd.
He can take criticism pretty well I think, but if you counter something he said, he'll often go to make a fool out of you. I've seen it on his streams, in his tweets etc.
tl;dr he likes to respond in bad faith if you question him.
@Morph Ball Jokes m8. And who cares what a Sweed thinks about the US president.
@@jamiecal11 - Sounds about right
Fantastic video overall. The definitions put out in the video describing melee's metagame structure are extremely informative while being basic to understand. I would suggest that a ledge grab limit applies even if the game does not go to time because a player can gain so much advantage from planking no matter the timer situation as well as that it will still halt the neutral game. For example, if a jigglypuff is planking against a captain falcon, the only decision that the captain falcon can choose to effectively win the game is to completely avoid the traps the puff will set up whilst planking, which will most likely cause the falcon to sit in the middle or end of the stage doing nothing until the timer runs out; therefore halting the amount of neutral that will be available for the falcon to play without playing the "minigame" that puff applies that puts him at a huge disadvantage due to the degeneracy of the tactic. This puts puff at a huge advantage because she will be able to dictate if the match will go to time or not as well as dictate the neutral game due to this bad mechanic. The optimal response to planking would be to not interact with it if this ruleset is applied which eradicates the original purpose of a ledge grab limit which is to stop degeneracy and allow melee's natural concepts of neutral and punish game to shine. A jigglypuff using the ledge for however long she likes just in case a falcon slips up and puts themselves in a disadvantage and then playing "normally" will still be possible. In the games that you used as examples, only one of them went to time.
Interesting and well thought out video. I'm somewhat interested in the way the LGL is implemented though, i.e., only in the case of timeout. We may see more timeouts as Hbox times out Amsa for egg stalling or something like that. Where he has no intention of winning the game or even having the % lead at the end, he just needs a timeout at any cost to win. Overall though I agree with you and think the LGL is healthy for the game just to discourage the technique.
This is a very good point that needs to be addressed. While I agree that some kind of rule should be put in place, this kind of a rule might only serve to increase degenerate play.
But if amsa is egg stalling isn’t he the one being “degenerate”? I don’t get the point here
@@supercereal522 He is being a degen, but I'm saying this will lead to more timeouts. I would prefer a higher LGL where even if the game doesn't go to time if a player grabbed ledge more than x number of times they lose. That way we can keep fighting instead of trying to force a timeout.
Like imagine this scenario, hbox realizes that amsa has grabbed the ledge 60 times on his first stock, they both have 4 left, and there is 6 min left in the game. Hbox now has to completely avoid Amsa for 6 min in order to win and get the timeout. Since the % doesn't matter and he literally just needs the game to go to time at all cost, the optimal strategies will all involve wasting time and running away, which just increases degeneracy.
Not saying I disagree with Hax, just a point I think should be addressed.
Bobbino so a strategy that involves attempting to discourage people breaking the LGL is a bad thing? Why is it all the sudden bad when hbox is trying to punish someone else for planking when it’s banned? See this is why nobody takes the melee community serious you guys are a bunch of idiots. “It’s okay for amsa to plank but not hbox because yay amsa”
This is a good video. I am impressed by how well you get your point across, Hax.
Only thing i disagree with is LGL being ignored in case of both players exceeding it. Having the traditional rule where the one with the most grabs loses, forces them to approach, which is what we want after all.
Blackout987 i disagree because that means that if someone goes over the ledgegrab limit then their opponent can just ledgestall for slightly less time at the end of the match, even if theyre losing
Then, in the hypothetical situation of a match where both players recur to planking, why not make both forfeit? That would make sure NO ONE IN A TOURNAMENT recurs to planking, not just one participant out of the two, or, for that matter, both.
That would certainly encourage interaction and disencourage degenerate and over-centralising techniques.
Richard Warwickshire you cant have both players lose that would mess up brackets
e x p a n s i o n p a k No it wouldnt lmao have you ever heard of a BYE? In thos case some players would get a BYE round because both of their would-be opponenents decided to exceed the LGL
e x p a n s i o n p a k Nobody is going to be keeping a total count on how many times their opponent is LG’ing for a given match. But in the rare case that this does happen then the LG’ing player should be given an L in that set outright and it really doesnt matter what the non LG’ing player was doing
respect for writing basically a thesis on this topic, well thought out
This was extremely well-written. Thank you very much for your words.
The biggest problem with this happening is that the majority of the community will gloss over the fact it COULD BE overcentralizing to say that it isn’t, because the only person who even really TRIES planking anymore is hbox and that’s not even often.
just as an add up. If we go and legalize LGL by time, I think time should also be reduced that way the player who is re-grabbing the ledge has less time to do so and is incentivized to get away from the ledge.
This is a really smart and light touch to the rules. A big tournament should trial this additional rule to see how it flies.
Hax is really a Melee professor holy shit. What a well presented video
2:15 THIS LEFFEN POST AFTER HIS SALT AT LUDWIGS IS SO FUNNY
I find the “only if it goes to time” idea very interesting...
Because, for example, if you’re losing and the opponent is planking and you think they broke the ledge limit, then suddenly your win condition entirely changes. You no longer care about trying to beat the opponent, but instead your goal is simply to live until the timeout happens. In that way, it then incentivizes you to camp your opponent until time out.
That being said, I still fully believe that this idea is absolutely better than no idea, and an argument can easily be made that camping is only incentivized when camping already exists (which is true). Idk, it’s just something to think about :)
The idea is that your opponent would also have the ledge grab-limit in mind and not risk it by planking. People can reasonable grab the ledge more than 20 times in a match without planking. If they're the one using the stall tactic then they're the one knowingly violating a rule.
I understand, but if you go into a match expecting that this might happen to you (for example, Wizzy thinking that HBox would likely do this), it’s quite possible to count one’s own and opponent’s total ledge grabs. If you know how many times you grab a ledge and continue to count it, you can approach but still stay below the limit. Also, if the opponent was planking for an extended period of time, that entire time you probably never grabbed the ledge, so your total grabs (before you would start counter planking) would be much below normal amounts.
I believe limiting ledge grabs would ultimately bring up more problems than it solves, as it would considerately reduce the recovery options and as a consequence make the edge guarding much less interesting. Players would constantly be worried about not exceeding the ledge grab count when recovering, which might lead them to make worse decisions in some instances. You might argue that this would be solved by making the ledge grab limit generous, but that would kinda defeat the purpose of the rule.
Perhaps a better option would be simply to ban planking as a strategy itself, in which the way to enforce the ban would be to let the player who the strategy is being used against to call it out, then a judge warns the planking player, and if he keeps doing it after the warning he loses the set.
So, ban consecutive ledge grabs instead of an overall match ledge grab count
The caveat that it's ONLY used if it goes to time makes the whole argument perfect. It means it doesn't affect ANYONE that is not trying to time people out by sitting on the ledge. And it doesn't prevent ledge mechanics: you are still allowed to stall/ledge-camp as much as you want - just make sure that you finish the game, not hide out forever.
i say remove the time limit
꧁K̊n̛̘̙̚e̗̚e꧂ that would cause so many more problems
@@chadhawley7050 how many more
Looks like Hax was right 3 years ago and tourneys are just now starting to implement a LGL. Wonder what the future will hold in regard to his other arguments like the implementation of the Boxx and 1.03.
If you're forced to the edge of the stage, you've lost neutral. A Sumo Wrestler isn't rewarded for being knocked out of the ring. So why then is it that there are characters that are rewarded for being on the ledge and in a position to lose a stock, instead drawing strength from this disadvantageous state?
Because melee is an accident
In a different universe, Sakurai only gave characters ledge intangibility if they had been damaged by an opponent within x seconds.
Hax has better essays then I have ever written
My biggest problem is saying "just because planking could or should over-centralize the meta game therefore we should, treat it like it IS over centralizing the meta." Melee just feels like all the community wants it to be is spacies dittos. It makes no sense to ban something in competitive gaming if only two people have ever really done it and have only done it in moderation when they did. If ledge camping becomes the one true meta then sure put a limit on ledge grabs or ban planking or whatever needs to be done, and I don't think experimenting with solutions is a bad idea but major tournaments aren't the place yet. At CEO for example, hbox only went to the ledge after wizzy showed he wanted to camp top platform. Hbox said "you want to camp then I'll out camp you no big deal" he didn't just ledge grab for the entire set or anything. While I agree that this could become a problem the community seems to largely reject the strategy, new players don't learn it because it's such a radical antithesis to the fast paced exciting gameplay of melee, vets don't use it because it's boring and they feel like they're above using it and it isn't an instant win condition like wobbling. Until someone does something absolutely ridiculous with it I don't think it deserves a hefty ban or limitation
Edit: I know you talk about peer pressure but it's a bigger role than we all give it credit for. Melee players make a living on this game and if it dies so does their income in large part, I know lots of them stream or do RUclips nowadays but tournament revenue is still a big portion of top players' income. They aren't going to do something that they all know will result in melee finally fading away because it'll be seen as a boring, repetitive, lesser version of ultimate or whatever smash game is out if melee makes it to the next one. This in itself makes top players, even hbox king of ledge camping, hesitate to use it to its full potential. I don't think this is a problem right now in melee but I understand the concerns with it as a whole, I just think preemptive large scale bans would ultimately push the meta more towards 20XX when every other character gets thrown out of meta because of said bans or limitations
Edit2: also one thing that would make a ledge grab limit difficult is just normal recovery, if we're going only based on number of times the ledge is grabbed then theoretically you'd have a match where a player is knocked off stage, could easily recover, but doing so would put them over the limit thus forfeiting them the match right? Unless ledge grab limits would only work for time out matches but why not just ban stalling in a more strict sense, anyone obviously playing for a time out should just be disqualified for using broken game mechanics or have a melee "shot clock" that refuses to let players be outside of the neutral game for x amount of time or they forfeit the match. Both of those seem like a more reasonable solution than banning something no one even does and it would help combat all forms of camping and not just planking
Wow amazing video who edited this
Hacks monee
U
You forgot the ice climbers freeze glitch. That was banned right away.
I thought he would mention that too
About the rules, i agree with everyting except the part where braking the lgl only represents a lose if the game goes to time. A player can plank and still win a game after taking all four stocks of his opponent's, the over centrilizing strategy its still being used on those cases, and it kinda defeats the purpose of the rule.
Other than that awesome video, much love hax
The idea is that it shifts the burden from non-planker to planker. Without a LGL, the planker simply waits on the ledge until timeout while dodging attacks and refreshing invincibility. With a LGL, the planker can't refresh their invincibility forever, so it opens them up to being poked by the non-planker.
@@scur-ow I see. Instead of erradicating plank based gameplay, we just hard nerf it, i guess that makes sense, im okay with any of them
That was a better presentation than me presenting in front of my class
I wonder if there would be a way to count ledge grabs on the actual screen (maybe near percentage) using slippi. That would get rid of the concern of miss counting or forgetting the issue of the ledge grab limit.
? The game counts it check your end game screen. The gods of melee really gave us everything we needed
He meant in the middle of the game, for the players. So you can know if you or your opponent has passed the limit. This is very valuable mid game knowledge.
arb ^^^
Also, now that I’m thinking about it, I think slippi couldn’t be used to do this, but maybe some actual mod similar to ucf? Idk, I’m not nearly smart enough to do something like this but I’m sure someone is
just a thought: if there is ever going to be a rule like "has to ledge grab less than 100 times", it should also take the other player's ledge grabs into consideration. If you have a scenario of one player has 99 ledge grabs and the other has 101, it would be stupid to punish the 101 player just because he has 2 more ledge grabs
I isagree, the rule is the rule.
One of you broke it and one of you didnt.
You get the consequences.
Numbers dont lie and the number was established.
I feel offended as a doc main that you didn't include doc extended ledge stall in the graph since it's also an invincible ledge stall... but this is still a good video
Zelda has one too, but if you go back he said "of the 11 characters considered viable", so he probably doesn't want to talk about every character in the game
@@cuno6118 Doc is in mid tier with pika/yoshi/samus so he's considered in the ''viable tier'' he's on the very edge but still, zelda is low tier. He doesn't really go indepth about how the ledge stall is done so why include them but not him since he's talking about a tas execution... then again those 11 characters have more turney results so i guess they have more attention :/
I think there should be a like 5 edge grab limit per time you grab ledge. So once you grab ledge you can only regrab 4 times
Part of the problem with that is having to always actively be counting how many times someone is grabbing the edge, instead of just being able to check after the game. You can't put the counting on the person planking for obvious bias reasons, and you can't assume that a TO will watch every game to count for you. People would argue that someone miscounted, etc.
Plus, what allows you to start grabbing the ledge again? Is it just touching the stage? That would mean that a character with a good hax dash can essentially still plank. If it's a time limit, that's now hard to adjudicate again because we'd have to decide who is responsible.
I like the idea of 5 ledgegrabs in a row, but it's actually not simple to implement.
B0XX gang, seriously though. im finally glad hax is putting content out again.
Can you please do this on every subject imaginable?
Thoughts on competitive Smash 64 and current meta,
Which game handles the ledge mechanics the best?
Can the Marios and Ganon break through to higher tiers like Pikachu and Yoshi?
If you had to rebalance the Melee roster what would you do?
Would having no stage hazards in Melee allow for more stages?
Hotdogs vs Hamburgers match up break down, who wins neutral?
Degenerate Normie: Ugh, why are so many stages and items banned? Game is no fun!
*Gets circle camped on Temple*
Ugh, why is this crap allowed? Game is no fun!
In all seriousness, this is a very well thought out video. It never really crossed my mind to how bad ledge stalling actually was. I always thought staying on the edge was just another strat I had to deal with, and I even got around it in some points.
I think the crux of his argument is that at top level play there is very little one can do against this technique without playing Marth, Sheik, or Jigglypuff. I think it's a pretty good idea, and easily enforceable.
Great job. Was a bit worried this would be one of those extraordinarily excessive rants when it was in my recommended, but it made perfect use of the time. Hopefully people listen.
This video should be in the new smash bros documentary.
This is articulated really well. I hope it makes the impact it should.
I think that 5 consecutive ledge-grabs should be the limit, like SSB Ultimate.
huh - good catch
the only problem with that in a game like melee, is that the oppressor could easily counter that, if they know how many they’ve done, which shouldn’t be too hard, then they can almost guarantee a w in that situation. if they know they have to come back they can abuse the limit, and attack and force them back off
Well done Hax...this is a perfectly explained reasoning of why planking is totally bogus
Melee players: we like this game because it's speedy and based on offense
also melee players: use a mechanic to play the game slowly and ultra defensively
I’ve never even played Melee. This just showed up in my recommends. Why did I watch the entire thing
This is a very well done, persuasive video.
Im on board.
yoshi egg throws from the ledge comes to mind. from memory, seems like amsa would throw eggs from ledge until one connects or until he's taken enough space to freely ledgedash back to stage without being punished. doesn't seem like intention to avoid as it's offensive, like puff fair, but not nearly as rewarding and a missed input truly risks a stock loss.
Why can't the rules just be "Don't be a coward"?
Because then we’d have to ban Fox ☠️
This is a really well formated, and convincing argument. I completely agree with your opinion. A ledge grab limit should be implemented.
Why does this sound like a valedictorian speech.
Idk if anyone else thought this too, but I was thinking this whole “ledge grab limit” debate was actually about ledge REgrabbing. I feel like it would make more sense to enforce regrabbing ledge instead of overall ledge grabs.
Too much gray area with that pov youd also need someone to tally ledgegrabs making it harder to enforce
World Saver The LGL is already effective, however, because there is an in-game country for it.
I can see your guys' point about it being difficult to enforce. Is the current method to deal with the LGL to just wait until after the match and see the counter in the stats? If so, it would seem like more time consuming to find out the LGL rule was broken and the match had to be replayed or the player disqualified. I appreciate the discussion btw!
HAX MONEY BABY
This is a great video with a wonderfully put together argument, I completely agree that jigglypuff should not be the only character to be affected by a ledgegrab limit. However, because she has the ability to abuse the broken risk reward scenario while grabbing the ledge less times than other characters which can abuse planking (due to her being able to spend multiple jumps with repeated fairs or baits offstage) would it not make sense to give a different ledgegrab limit for puff? This was something that the brawl community implamented when they instituted ledgegrab limits. The ledgegrab limit for metanight was lower than those for other characters because through multiple jumps and repeated up airs he was able to avoid the neutral game without grabbing the ledge as many times as other characters needed to.
I agree with this video completely. Nothing good comes from planking and no character should be allowed to plank and I want to see interesting counterplay to it.
Back air at the ledge is pretty much all youll see.
Or dash dance on stage and ignore them.
best wat to limit it is You are only allowed 3 chain ledge grabs, after that you have to land or attempt to land into the stage, chain grabbing the ledge again will result in immediate stock loss
i don't necessarily agree with your criteria that something has to be overcentralizing to be bannable.
All the more reason to ban planking!
Say that to Brawl, which is dead and gone
@@calebrobinson6406 brawl was pretty boring to begin with lol
i think his point was more that if it's overcentralizing and degenerate, it NEEDS to be banned. not to say that degeneracy shouldn't be banned as well (wobbling rests entirely on its degeneracy and IMO it definitely should be banned)
So much for adapting. Dang, I used to respect Melee. H-box is just too good for guys I guess
?? So he made an elaborate 25 min video with very articulate points. And the only counter argument you have is : ''h-BoX iS jUsT tOo GoOd FoR yOu GuYs''
Damn I thought the 2:16 message was from some random noob and then I read the name
LOL damn same here lmao.
leffen tends to have shitty takes even back then
He was good but not that good in 2011. Hax was waaay better than leffen in 2011
Good video, you outlined and defined things surrounding the discussion very clearly. Thank you for the hard work
Personally I think it should be up to tournament organizers, but at the same time I think there should be limit to ledge grabbing.
If the rule lies as the player must exceed ledge grabs, AND win via timeout there's no reason not to adopt something like that. It would be clearly focused on player's who are literally trying to avoid engagement because they aren't confident to defeat the other player. If it was a flat ledge grab limit I could see push back, but as long as exceeding the grab limit while also KO'ing the opponent still counts as a viable win then there's really no good excuse to oppose that rule. It's like the three board state repeat in chess if a player isn't willing to risk the game further than the game is already forfeit. Stalling is not outplaying someone else; it's admitting you can't win, and refusing to risk trying.
How is this even a debate.
Any method that allows a player saying “This round is OVER” giving them the win because they got a slight advantage should be illegal. That isn’t fun.
The rule only applies to when someone breaks it and time goes out. Otherwise, the game plays the same. They don't prematurely end the game right there.
To play devil’s advocate, based on your argument that we shouldn’t consider infinite invincibility ledge stalling as an issue because of its high improbability of execution, it’s rather paradoxical in nature to partially base the reason to ban conventional ledge stalling on how overused it could or should be, as it’s also highly improbable that it’ll become overused. The only difference between the former and latter strategy is that the first one is limited by difficulty of execution (requiring frame-perfect input) and the second one is limited by peer pressure and social norms.
To clarify, I agree with the video for the most part, but both strategies are problems that should be addressed
Yoshi should still be able to egg stall imo. It's one of his very few valid options lol
He can, remember LGL only is in effect if the game goes to time. You can stall but eventually you have to take your opponents last stock.
@@justusheekin2925 Good point. I feel like if the opponent knows that you've gone over the limit, they can just time you out though idk
The reason why egg stall isn't banned is that it's not fully invincible (I'm pretty sure), and there's a chance you could mess up, and lose a stock
@@adamice2526 Yeah, even if you do it perfectly, you're still vulnerable for 1 frame
@@v_aasu If you both go over I think the rule is negated, but I see your point
This is just so goddamn well-made. Completely agree with this, it’s frustrating having to fight planking, and it’s too degenerate to be legal. Great video Hax.