but the best part about this whole incident, Londo backs G'kar and reveals to G'Kar and the Narn about Lord Reefa's treachery. Such a great set of scenes and story-writing.
Never ever ever bet against Londo Mollari. And yet.... you can't help but feel for Vir. It's like watching Londo kick a puppy, and you're in horror saying "dude, no come ON this is VIR!!!!". I mean, I've watched every episode 5 times. I know how it turns out and why. But... DAMN. Imagine being Vir, and having to go and carry it out. The soul-crushing guilt he would feel.
Oh he hits that low point and Londo realizing where his actions are going talks him back from the edge, Honestly that is me favorite scene over this. it shows despite what he feels he has to do, he still has heart enough to try to save Vir from himself. Here is the scene i consider Londo's best scene, Vir's lowest point ruclips.net/video/e8QGmoih_L0/видео.html&ab_channel=Livingflame
There are three truly great television and movie based space operas, "Star Wars" for its myth-making, "Star Trek" for its optimism and Babylon 5, for its gritty and witty portrayal of those who madly grasp for power.
I would say B5 is more for it's hope against adversity (and no, not the optimism of Trek). Trek is what we can accomplish, B5 is the fight for the goals of Trek. The younger race including human eventually ascend, there are highs and lows on the path but you get there eventually. JMS always have a sense of hope & spirit in his story, you can see the same thing in Sense8.
and all three were ran to the ground years later because Hollywood ran out of ideas and everyone else was to much of a nostalgia junkie to say "you know what we dont need a remake/revival/reboot we can just rewatch the old and share it with the people who have never seen it."
Always remember, when Londo is asking you to do something, he is always certain you will do it, because he knows you'll get what you want when you have a kind word and a baseball bat behind your back
3 года назад+5
It is impressive how the mirror is showing how this is one of two realities.
You got to hand it to Londo, he is a brilliant strategist and manipulator. As Emperor, he would have really taken the Centauri back to their prime if he wasn't forced into servitude by the Drak!!
Oh, and he did take Centauri back to it's prime. He made sure he trained the next Emperor well. THis video is one of the lesson. YOu sometimes need to be cruel to be kind.
Still,15 years later i watched Deep Space Nine on DVD and must admit it was a great series with many great moments and episodes that were worth watching.Having said that,the impact B5 had with its five seasons was so great that any subsequent attempts to make shows in its universe failed.You can't have Star Wars without Han Solo or B5 without Garibaldi,G'Kar or Lando.
Lorien, I've read the first of that trilogy and it is absolutely stunning! Peter David is a great writer, I love his work in the Star Trek Universe too, Q-squared and all that. He captures the moods and personality of our gorgeous Emperor perfectly! (and no Londo didn't pay me to say that) There's so much more I could say, but I don't want to spoil it either.
Londo is the classic flawed hero. Even in ancient Greek plays Hercules was such a flawed hero. I have both disliked and loved Londo in the coarse of Babylon 5, and yes in the end he is a pitiful character. A causality of his love for his planet and it's people, of circumstances, and his own bad choices. Some of the most heroic, funniest, and most tragic scenes of Babylon 5 involve him. At his best he is wise and courageous, and at his worst he foolish and petty. Well done thank you Peter Jurasik
@@AQuietVoice2022 I really thought at one point of Londo's character arc he was irredeemable. But, in the end he was affable and pitiable and yes "In purple he was stunning"
Aaaaah, here they are again, Londo's three levels of persuasion: You will do it - because I asked you - because it will help our people - and because I will utterly and completely ruin and destroy you and anyone you care about if you don't.
What a plot twist! Vir turning out to be capable of murder, despite his naivety (which Londo refers to a lot! LOL) Some hard lessons learned there for both Vir and Londo, but that's what makes great storylines and memorable characters.
@lordshadow69 i actually feel the same way. trek tends to waste much of its cast's talents and its huge funding with bad writing, but babylon 5 made the best out of its limited budget and influence and has made me cry and laugh and angry and sad and reflect more times than Star Trek or other scifi ever could.
Of course it was, but that's not ALL it was. By doing this, Londo was driving a wedge between Vir and G'kar, ensuring that G'kar would know he couldn't trust Vir. That makes it impossible for G'kar to use Vir as a weapon against the Centauri, but more importantly, it's about dirtying Vir up morally, enough that he won't ever try to do something like he did for the Narns again. It's clever, cynical, and brutally effective.
I'm glad you are so good at answering your own questions. Just because those things you mentioned weren't in Star Trek, doesn't mean that it wasn't influenced in other ways from Star Trek. One example is the idea of diplomacy between alien races. That was done before in Star Trek and shows up here as well. That is just one of many examples of influence Star Trek had on this show. It doesn't mean they ripped off Star Trek because they didn't. It was just heavily influenced by it.
I don't think this is Londo at his best...this is at his worst. His BEST is when he deals with the Shadows and Morden when the Vorlon planet killer is on the way
I think his best is when he knowingly went to his doom to save his people. He knew he was responsible for it all and he knew he had to be part of the solution. You see Londo's best when he becomes best friends with G'Kar, when he helps Sheridan and Delenn set up the Alliance... when everything seemed to be going well before he realized Centauri was in big trouble.
Shows the best of Vir in my mind. I remember Vir in this series he started off being the really geeky nerdy useless newt. Then gradually his power grows. Power through being a really good guy. He saves his race. Londo is while empathic is greedy. Vir isn't.
I don't know what's more cruel, what Londo threatened to do to Vir's family if he didn't go through with it, or the fact he only told him to do this because it was part of his plan with G'kar to trap Reefa and Londo knew that he would target and possibly torture Vir to give him the bait for the trap.
Londo: ...remember G'Kar's aid Na'Toth? Vir: Remember?! I still have the claw-marks! No one to my knowledge has ever commented on this tantalising part of the dialogue. To my memory, there was no scene on the series that ever showed Na'Toth assaulting Vir, nor was any such encounter referred to. My guess is this was just mentioned in this episode to remind us that Na'Toth was tough, but why attack Vir? He never was a threat to anyone, and he was one of the few Centauri who hated what his people were doing to the Narn. My guess is it must have been a "misunderstanding", maybe she misinterpreted something Vir was doing as an act of aggression (ie. reaching for something in his vest pocket for a handkerchief, and she thought he was going to pull out a weapon). I also idly wonder if this assault could have been what led to her being sent back to her world just in time for the mass drive bombing...
Remember the episode where Londo and G'Kar had Vir and Na'Toth substitute in for them in negotiations with each other.... and both of them said to each aide: Don't give away the homeworld.... :D :D :D Lol Great show.
No that is not what I said, which you'd know if you read it. They do not mention ST at all, they make it very clear the concept is independent. When JMS has been asked by fans, he's stated many times ST did not have any influence on the development. Nonsensical arguments and trolling assumptions don't alter those facts, nor make you look clever. Stop assuming ST is the be-all and end-all of SF, because it's certainly not. Enjoy both shows for what they are.
@BlueEyesDudeDragon3 Season 3 Episode 20. Londo is lying to Vir and the trap is actually for Lord Refa; Londo knows Refa would kidnap Vir and scan his mind with a telepath.
@highlandwolf01 Actually, he wasn't quite power mad and blind at that point. This was a setup for G'Kar to kill Reefa. To be honest, what gripped Londo at that moment wasn't a hunger for power, but hunger for plain revenge.
If I was Vir, I’d do what Molari wanted, but I’d also tell J’kar what Molari’s intentions were for providing this information. Since Molari already thinks of G’kar as resourceful and capable, it’s not so unlikely that G’kar would have a plan B in place for the possibility that it could be a trap to capture him, thus, hopefully, freeing Vir from suspicion of having informed G’kar of Molari’s true intentions.
I never see Londo as evil or bad person. He just make some bad decisions and always for the love for this people. I feel he was very much manipulated by fate and events, especially those engineered by the shadows
SPOILERS, too. true. Londo lured lord refa nto this trap by letting him catch Vir and have him scanned by his telepaths. Refa wanting to catch G'Kar himself is caught and then killed G'Kar and his followers as revenge for the bombing of Narn. Cartagia was killed by Vir after G'Kar was imprisoned by the Centauri.
Londo Mollari is the all-time best tragic figure ever portrayed in English-language fiction. (But the best _villain,_ I'm afraid, belongs to a different show. That'd be Scorpius.)
To say that the absence of something in plain sight proves that it doesn't exist is a fallacy. It's like saying the Sun doesn't exist at night because you can't see it.
In fact that's exactly what it does mean, and yes, it is ignorant to argue without evidence, let alone try to prove a negative without evidence. Read JMS notes and commentaries. he states many times it was not a discernable influence. Learn to deal with it.
Well if what you are saying is true, then you are saying his notes specifically mention Star Trek and that they were trying to move away from it and that, IMO, is enough influence right there in the notes.
Whether he gave the info willingly or not, the same thing would have happened. Vir was being used as an unknowing pawn here. Londo probably wouldn't have forgiven that kind of betrayal though.
Was Star Trek set on a space station? No. Was Star Trek about a war? No. It's very well documented that JMS shopped B5 to the network who knocked it back and then stole the idea as the template for DS9.
I guess we are both juvenile then, but you called me out for ignorance when none existed -- you left that out. I am still interested in this conversation. I haven't read what you are talking about exactly but I have watched many intervews with JMS about it. Just because he doesn't mention Star Trek specifically anywhere in concept notes doesn't mean he wasn't affected by Star Trek. It was hard for his show to get greenlit because execs didn't think a non-trek sci-fi show would get high ratings.
The whole idea of Babylon 5 is that is was a place where races could convene to work out their differences through diplomacy and learn more about each others species. Star Trek basically invented that concept. Star Trek was the first sci-fi series dealing with those kinds of issues and Babylon 5 drew heavily from it. If you ask for more examples I will give them but I would imagine you will keep wanting to pretend the shows have no relation.
Londo is so likeable and sympathetic at first, but there was a dark personality just waiting for the right opportunity to assert itself, and that opportunity came in the form of Mr. Morden. From then on, he was more of a threat than an asset for anyone that associated with him, and evolved into quite the literary tragic figure.
Everything wrong he does returns to him and his people (who are generally supportively complicit to his crimes) thousand times. After he becomes emperor, he spends the rest of his life in regret and submission. And he tries to make for it at every opportunity, saves Delenn and Sheridan when they are captured by Drakh ruled Centauri. And tries to warn them, when he's forced to deliver the Drakh Keeper to David. I don't think it is a dark personality that send him on the wrong path, but rather good intentions without caring about methods of achieving them...
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Londo was a patriot and willing to do whatever it took for the good of his people. Londo himself explains it well in season 4 episode 15 when he met with G'kar in private to try to forge an alliance to help Sheridan out. "You may not believe this G'Kar, but all I ever wanted is what is right for my world. I'm a patriot, as you are. I have made some .. very poor choices in the last two years. Because I did not think, those choices almost destroyed my world, and yours. That is a humbling realization, G'Kar. If, with a single wrong word, I can become the enemy, do I any longer really understand who the enemy is?" - Londo The entire scene is gold.
What you don't realize until the end is that Londo is only playing evil. He actually has this whole scenario planned with G'Kar. He is just playing evil so anyone spying on him thinks he's betraying G'Kar!
JMS pitched B5 to Paramount... After a year of reading JMS' treatrment for the show, they said, "No thanks..." then plagiarized the idea to create, "Deep Space Nine". ;)
No, Mollari was never a "nice guy," but he never seemed quite as cruel as N'toth or the pre-enlightened G'kar. Those two would far better fit the description of "cold-blooded"--literally and metaphorically.
When Morden interviews ambassadors, it is clear Londo is the most useful to him by his positive traits and intentions: personal ambition, nostalgia, dreams, wellbeing and prosperity of his people. G'kar was just expressing pure hate and resentment, which can be manipulated, but exhausts too soon for a Shadow campaign scale plans...
The operative word is "seemed". G'kar, if you were paying attention, was never quite the villain he seemed and Londo never quite the amiable buffoon he seemed in the first season. Remember it is G'kar who said "People here are not quite what they seem".
That is not quite accurate. G'kar mentions that he wants justice and that he wants his people to be safe. That indicates, if you pay attention, that G'kar has limits to what he will do or be involved with. Londo does not mention anything that could be construed has limits to what he will do in order to achieve his goals. So yes G'kar mouths an explosion of hate but even so his hate doesn't quite run away from him. In the second season episode in which G'kar learns, after planning to murder the visiting Centari Emperor, that the Emperor had intended to apologize for what the Centari had done to the Narn, G'kar's attitude shifts radically. A Simple apology is enough to lift a lot of the hate from him. That indicates that with G'kar, at least, appearances were indeed deceiving.
Which was also done in many places before Star Trek. ST is not the be all and end all of SF, and given the background and creation of this series, ST had a minimal influence: in fact, the other way around for DS9. All of which is pretty thoroughly documented, so your whiny juvenile snark is kind of pointless. Appreciate ST for what it is, and appreciate B5 for what it is.
Because it's largely incorrect, as you'd know if you read the stories behind both shows. As SF, ST undeniably has some small impact on any other SF show, but as the B5 creator has written over and over, they wanted to get away from the ST way of doing and showing things as they could- so it influenced B5 as something to avoid/differentiate from, not copy. And yes, continuing to argue from ignorance is juvenile, sorry.
No. Trying to do something different and unrelated is not influence. Read JMS original and detailed concept notes- no relation to or influence from ST anywhere. And no, calling out arguments from ignorance isn't juvenile. Continuing them is.
It wasn't juvenile. It was a legitimate point because you were answering questions about things I wasn't talking about. I never mentioned DS9. Not once until you did. You are really hung up on DS9. Babylon 5 influenced DS9. DS9 was influenced by Start Trek and other sci-fi before it. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? (continued)
I don't understand why Straczynski heaped such misfortune upon Londo. He is surely a beloved character by fans of the series. When things start out he is a cheerful, boisterous, charismatic figure, but by the end of the series he's a ruined man. I don't think it was necessary for him to suffer so much. I have read online that he has some sort of heroic or redemptive death but I never saw anything like that. At the end of season five things are kind of left up in the air and unresolved. Everyone else gets a good send off but with Londo you have to go back to earlier in the series and review those dark visions of the future when he is old. I didn't even realize that was the future. I thought maybe it was just visions of what could be or merely hallucinations. So if anyone can help me out in processing why things go so badly for Londo and tell me how things do end for Londo I would appreciate it.
G'Kar did kill Londo and Londo did kill G'kar, at the same time, with their hands around each others' necks... but instead of it being for enmity, it was for friendship. Londo was being controlled by a living Drak implant and had discovered that if he drank just the right amount of alcohol, he could send the implant to "sleep" for a short time. Londo managed to communicate this information to G'Kar during one of these times and asked G'Kar to kill him before it woke up, since there was no way of removing the implant/creature without killing Londo anyway. G'Kar obliged and as he did so, the implant/creature woke up and, understanding what was happening, forced Londo to choke G'Kar. It's strongly implied that they died at the same time, not as enemies but as friends. G'Kar willingly sacrificed his life in order to do what Londo wanted.
Landon was given 5 chances, according to the previous Emperor's wife (played by Majel Barret Roddenberry, of all people) to avoid the fire that awaited him. At the time he was told this, he had already squandered 2. The last chance he had was to "succumb to his greatest fear, knowing it would destroy him" That would be G'kar. If not for them at the last, Lando would have continued as a puppet, his successor would have been chosen by the Drakh, and the Centuari would have been nearly irredeemable. His sacrifice at the end eventually saved his people, though there were few who would even know or appreciate it
But don't you see that the fact that they had to try to get away from Star Trek shows that it was influenced by it? And calling me ignorant is pretty close-minded and juvenile in itself, sorry.
Wtf? No, it's not, especially when nothing of the kind is 'in plain sight'. JMS' original notes and ongoing production comments make it very clear ST was not an influence on B5. Cope with it.
Be careful trashing the 'ideal' future nothing wrong with being optimistic. If you told people in the 19th century about social welfare , the NHS, the European Union, the internet they'd say you were mad
One of the better actors on the show. It desperately needs a fresh reboot. The story is great. With fantastic actors and the money for production this could be a fantastic new franchise. But no...
Aurora Jones There has never been a successful reboot. Reboots are weak attempts by people who perceive themselves as being creative while the truth is that they lack the ability to create their own creations so they pillage the creations of true creators who came before them. *If they are so damn creative, they should create their own creation from scratch!*
@@briandeschene8424 I would argue that the Battlestar Galactica reboot was good, but then, that really took its basic premise and name, with a few visual elements from the original show and pretty much did its own thing from the start.
You'll find that concept was invented well before ST, and no, that was not the development concept behind B5, that's the setting. You'll also find it very well documented that ST had a minimal influence on the develop of B5, even though DS9 ripped it off wholesale. Your whining snark is pointless, it doesn't change those facts. Just enjoy the two shows for what they are.
The effects of Bablyon 5 don't come close to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the aliens are poorly designed, such as the Centauri, and the characters are just not as interesting. To each his own.
The effects are a product of budget, and DS9 had a vastly larger budget than B5 had. The aliens are no more poorly designed than Star Trek's humans-with-funny-heads designs, and in several cases featured aliens more exotic and diverse. The characters are full of depth, more interesting, and speak dialogue that feels far less like it was written by a committee of very boring people. B5 is, in all the important ways, a superior experience to DS9. To each his own.
That's nonsense. While the budget was much lower, the characters are amazing in Babylon 5 and the dialogue is outstanding. Was a great show. DS9 is also my favorite Trek series, and it's success is partially due to copying ideas from Babylon 5. Most notably, a long term background story arc.
Развлечения
Londo is a great boss and supervisor. He gives you clear job performance expectations!
Haha nice.
but the best part about this whole incident, Londo backs G'kar and reveals to G'Kar and the Narn about Lord Reefa's treachery. Such a great set of scenes and story-writing.
it's equally frightening and charming that he would tell that to a friend, imagine what he'd do to an enemy, oh wait Mr morden...
It must be based off of Macbeth where he kills his best friend to maintain power, and then his ghost comes back to haunt him.
Reefa too
"I will have to have that painted over, I guess..."
Later, Vir waves at Morden's head...
Never ever ever bet against Londo Mollari. And yet.... you can't help but feel for Vir. It's like watching Londo kick a puppy, and you're in horror saying "dude, no come ON this is VIR!!!!". I mean, I've watched every episode 5 times. I know how it turns out and why. But... DAMN. Imagine being Vir, and having to go and carry it out. The soul-crushing guilt he would feel.
Oh he hits that low point and Londo realizing where his actions are going talks him back from the edge, Honestly that is me favorite scene over this. it shows despite what he feels he has to do, he still has heart enough to try to save Vir from himself. Here is the scene i consider Londo's best scene, Vir's lowest point
ruclips.net/video/e8QGmoih_L0/видео.html&ab_channel=Livingflame
There are three truly great television and movie based space operas, "Star Wars" for its myth-making, "Star Trek" for its optimism and Babylon 5, for its gritty and witty portrayal of those who madly grasp for power.
I would say B5 is more for it's hope against adversity (and no, not the optimism of Trek). Trek is what we can accomplish, B5 is the fight for the goals of Trek. The younger race including human eventually ascend, there are highs and lows on the path but you get there eventually. JMS always have a sense of hope & spirit in his story, you can see the same thing in Sense8.
You missed out gundam, 40 years of political intrigue and robot battles IN SPAAÀAAAASCE
and all three were ran to the ground years later because Hollywood ran out of ideas and everyone else was to much of a nostalgia junkie to say "you know what we dont need a remake/revival/reboot we can just rewatch the old and share it with the people who have never seen it."
Battlestar Galactica
Firefly
The Expanse
Londo Mollari is the best character of all sci-fi shows ever!! Coming across him randomly on youtube made me start to rewatch whole Babylon 5 again.
you should rewatch babylon
Londo one of my favorite characters, Londo a tragic character
Always remember, when Londo is asking you to do something, he is always certain you will do it, because he knows you'll get what you want when you have a kind word and a baseball bat behind your back
It is impressive how the mirror is showing how this is one of two realities.
Damn I miss the 90's!!!
This show was so hard core. Wow. I had forgotten this part, but wow.
You got to hand it to Londo, he is a brilliant strategist and manipulator. As Emperor, he would have really taken the Centauri back to their prime if he wasn't forced into servitude by the Drak!!
Make Centauri Prime Great Again
And yet, he still managed to manipulate things so that Vir could take over and do what Londo couldn't.
He is annoying, but very capable.
Oh, and he did take Centauri back to it's prime. He made sure he trained the next Emperor well. THis video is one of the lesson. YOu sometimes need to be cruel to be kind.
Londo was never one for beating around the bush. Gotta love a guy who gets right to the point.
Londo always tries to be reasonable twice, and then the threats.
Gorgeous yes but in purple he's stunning.
It's scenes like this that made B5 one of the greatest series ever.
Still,15 years later i watched Deep Space Nine on DVD and must admit it was a great series with many great moments and episodes that were worth watching.Having said that,the impact B5 had with its five seasons was so great that any subsequent attempts to make shows in its universe failed.You can't have Star Wars without Han Solo or B5 without Garibaldi,G'Kar or Lando.
Lorien, I've read the first of that trilogy and it is absolutely stunning! Peter David is a great writer, I love his work in the Star Trek Universe too, Q-squared and all that. He captures the moods and personality of our gorgeous Emperor perfectly! (and no Londo didn't pay me to say that)
There's so much more I could say, but I don't want to spoil it either.
Londo is the classic flawed hero. Even in ancient Greek plays Hercules was such a flawed hero. I have both disliked and loved Londo in the coarse of Babylon 5, and yes in the end he is a pitiful character. A causality of his love for his planet and it's people, of circumstances, and his own bad choices. Some of the most heroic, funniest, and most tragic scenes of Babylon 5 involve him. At his best he is wise and courageous, and at his worst he foolish and petty. Well done thank you Peter Jurasik
"At his best he is wise and courageous, and at his worst he foolish and petty;" but in purple, he is stunning!
@@AQuietVoice2022 I really thought at one point of Londo's character arc he was irredeemable. But, in the end he was affable and pitiable and yes "In purple he was stunning"
Aaaaah, here they are again, Londo's three levels of persuasion:
You will do it
- because I asked you
- because it will help our people
- and because I will utterly and completely ruin and destroy you and anyone you care about if you don't.
I remember this episode one of Londo’s ingenious plans, loved this character who was flawed and noble at the same time.
What a plot twist! Vir turning out to be capable of murder, despite his naivety (which Londo refers to a lot! LOL)
Some hard lessons learned there for both Vir and Londo, but that's what makes great storylines and memorable characters.
And later, ironically, he actually helps G’Kar rescue Na’Toth. Funny old world, innit? 🤔
@lordshadow69 i actually feel the same way. trek tends to waste much of its cast's talents and its huge funding with bad writing, but babylon 5 made the best out of its limited budget and influence and has made me cry and laugh and angry and sad and reflect more times than Star Trek or other scifi ever could.
Trek also was extremely heavy-handed in a script and it's morality play each episode
But when Vir did it, he stammered and flop-sweat so hard that G'Kar knew that it was a set-up.
ah londo londo londo the ups and downs he went through
Babylon 5 forever!!
Wow that was brutal.
Roger Semahan it was all a trick to help G'Kar, but Londo couldn't let Vir in on it.
Of course it was, but that's not ALL it was. By doing this, Londo was driving a wedge between Vir and G'kar, ensuring that G'kar would know he couldn't trust Vir. That makes it impossible for G'kar to use Vir as a weapon against the Centauri, but more importantly, it's about dirtying Vir up morally, enough that he won't ever try to do something like he did for the Narns again. It's clever, cynical, and brutally effective.
Londo the evil you hate to love
Hey....we've got the SAME MIRROR in our bedroom!!!
Spot on
I think my response to that might have been to pull a dagger and plunge it into Londo's hearts.
I love how Londo and gkar basically do end fulfilling the future of killing each other, but they kill each other as friends.
I'm glad you are so good at answering your own questions. Just because those things you mentioned weren't in Star Trek, doesn't mean that it wasn't influenced in other ways from Star Trek. One example is the idea of diplomacy between alien races. That was done before in Star Trek and shows up here as well. That is just one of many examples of influence Star Trek had on this show. It doesn't mean they ripped off Star Trek because they didn't. It was just heavily influenced by it.
Actually, it was Star Trek that ripped off Babylon 5 for DS9.
That kind of talk would make me start plotting to betray Londo.
I don't think this is Londo at his best...this is at his worst.
His BEST is when he deals with the Shadows and Morden when the Vorlon planet killer is on the way
I think his best is when he knowingly went to his doom to save his people. He knew he was responsible for it all and he knew he had to be part of the solution. You see Londo's best when he becomes best friends with G'Kar, when he helps Sheridan and Delenn set up the Alliance... when everything seemed to be going well before he realized Centauri was in big trouble.
This was him setting a trap for Lord Reefa, and keeping Vir in the dark because Vir leaking the information was key to the plan.
Shows the best of Vir in my mind. I remember Vir in this series he started off being the really geeky nerdy useless newt. Then gradually his power grows. Power through being a really good guy. He saves his race. Londo is while empathic is greedy. Vir isn't.
These aliens look like the host of the Ancient Aliens TV show! Maybe he’s one of these aliens himself!🤣😂🤣😹
You tell him vir
This show is a lot less enjoyable in the episodes that don't feature Londo or G'Kar.
Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik were the soul of this series!
I don't know what's more cruel, what Londo threatened to do to Vir's family if he didn't go through with it, or the fact he only told him to do this because it was part of his plan with G'kar to trap Reefa and Londo knew that he would target and possibly torture Vir to give him the bait for the trap.
I still won't do it!!
Londo: ...remember G'Kar's aid Na'Toth?
Vir: Remember?! I still have the claw-marks!
No one to my knowledge has ever commented on this tantalising part of the dialogue. To my memory, there was no scene on the series that ever showed Na'Toth assaulting Vir, nor was any such encounter referred to. My guess is this was just mentioned in this episode to remind us that Na'Toth was tough, but why attack Vir? He never was a threat to anyone, and he was one of the few Centauri who hated what his people were doing to the Narn. My guess is it must have been a "misunderstanding", maybe she misinterpreted something Vir was doing as an act of aggression (ie. reaching for something in his vest pocket for a handkerchief, and she thought he was going to pull out a weapon). I also idly wonder if this assault could have been what led to her being sent back to her world just in time for the mass drive bombing...
Remember the episode where Londo and G'Kar had Vir and Na'Toth substitute in for them in negotiations with each other.... and both of them said to each aide: Don't give away the homeworld.... :D :D :D Lol Great show.
I'm pretty sure he was speaking metaphorically.
@@KrK007 Actually, that was Ko'Dath, Na'Toth's predecessor that Vir negotiated with, the one who supposedly died in an "airlock accident".
@@rbbecker73 Knowing Na'Toth, I don't think so. The look on Vir's face didn't look like he was speaking metaphorically, either.
@SiriusMined VIr's wave. :D
You have a lot of anger.
No that is not what I said, which you'd know if you read it. They do not mention ST at all, they make it very clear the concept is independent. When JMS has been asked by fans, he's stated many times ST did not have any influence on the development. Nonsensical arguments and trolling assumptions don't alter those facts, nor make you look clever. Stop assuming ST is the be-all and end-all of SF, because it's certainly not. Enjoy both shows for what they are.
@BlueEyesDudeDragon3 Season 3 Episode 20. Londo is lying to Vir and the trap is actually for Lord Refa; Londo knows Refa would kidnap Vir and scan his mind with a telepath.
@highlandwolf01 Actually, he wasn't quite power mad and blind at that point. This was a setup for G'Kar to kill Reefa. To be honest, what gripped Londo at that moment wasn't a hunger for power, but hunger for plain revenge.
If I was Vir, I’d do what Molari wanted, but I’d also tell J’kar what Molari’s intentions were for providing this information. Since Molari already thinks of G’kar as resourceful and capable, it’s not so unlikely that G’kar would have a plan B in place for the possibility that it could be a trap to capture him, thus, hopefully, freeing Vir from suspicion of having informed G’kar of Molari’s true intentions.
I miss good science fiction
"feels great".
molnodow has stood upt tpo the shadow, the human abasadoer, and jkar. vire is another mater
DUDE!!! Have to show the second half!!!
@lordshadow69 Yes, this was one of those underrated and under-appreciated sci fi gems. But at times I found the dialog a bit pasty and even bombastic.
I never see Londo as evil or bad person. He just make some bad decisions and always for the love for this people. I feel he was very much manipulated by fate and events, especially those engineered by the shadows
SPOILERS, too.
true. Londo lured lord refa nto this trap by letting him catch Vir and have him scanned by his telepaths. Refa wanting to catch G'Kar himself is caught and then killed G'Kar and his followers as revenge for the bombing of Narn.
Cartagia was killed by Vir after G'Kar was imprisoned by the Centauri.
Londo Mollari is the all-time best tragic figure ever portrayed in English-language fiction.
(But the best _villain,_ I'm afraid, belongs to a different show. That'd be Scorpius.)
Wasn't it Lord Refa that Londo was aiming for, not Cartagia. Londo v Cartagia comes later, if I remember right.
anyone else got good recall?
Just what sort of hairspray do the Centauri use? No matter what, it never gets messed.
More like Londo at his worst.
To say that the absence of something in plain sight proves that it doesn't exist is a fallacy. It's like saying the Sun doesn't exist at night because you can't see it.
Londo Calrissian
Man, Lando would wish being a half as good as Londo...
Star Trek began in 1966...
In fact that's exactly what it does mean, and yes, it is ignorant to argue without evidence, let alone try to prove a negative without evidence. Read JMS notes and commentaries. he states many times it was not a discernable influence. Learn to deal with it.
Well if what you are saying is true, then you are saying his notes specifically mention Star Trek and that they were trying to move away from it and that, IMO, is enough influence right there in the notes.
Londo knew Vir well enough to risk threatening him like this. Vir could've betrayed him to Refa for the sake of self preservation as well as revenge.
Whether he gave the info willingly or not, the same thing would have happened. Vir was being used as an unknowing pawn here.
Londo probably wouldn't have forgiven that kind of betrayal though.
what season? episode?
Was Star Trek set on a space station? No. Was Star Trek about a war? No. It's very well documented that JMS shopped B5 to the network who knocked it back and then stole the idea as the template for DS9.
I guess we are both juvenile then, but you called me out for ignorance when none existed -- you left that out. I am still interested in this conversation. I haven't read what you are talking about exactly but I have watched many intervews with JMS about it. Just because he doesn't mention Star Trek specifically anywhere in concept notes doesn't mean he wasn't affected by Star Trek. It was hard for his show to get greenlit because execs didn't think a non-trek sci-fi show would get high ratings.
The whole idea of Babylon 5 is that is was a place where races could convene to work out their differences through diplomacy and learn more about each others species. Star Trek basically invented that concept. Star Trek was the first sci-fi series dealing with those kinds of issues and Babylon 5 drew heavily from it. If you ask for more examples I will give them but I would imagine you will keep wanting to pretend the shows have no relation.
at his Best? or at his Worst?
Vir has a golden heart.
Londo is so likeable and sympathetic at first, but there was a dark personality just waiting for the right opportunity to assert itself, and that opportunity came in the form of Mr. Morden. From then on, he was more of a threat than an asset for anyone that associated with him, and evolved into quite the literary tragic figure.
Everything wrong he does returns to him and his people (who are generally supportively complicit to his crimes) thousand times. After he becomes emperor, he spends the rest of his life in regret and submission. And he tries to make for it at every opportunity, saves Delenn and Sheridan when they are captured by Drakh ruled Centauri. And tries to warn them, when he's forced to deliver the Drakh Keeper to David. I don't think it is a dark personality that send him on the wrong path, but rather good intentions without caring about methods of achieving them...
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Londo was a patriot and willing to do whatever it took for the good of his people.
Londo himself explains it well in season 4 episode 15 when he met with G'kar in private to try to forge an alliance to help Sheridan out.
"You may not believe this G'Kar, but all I ever wanted is what is right for my world. I'm a patriot, as you are. I have made some .. very poor choices in the last two years. Because I did not think, those choices almost destroyed my world, and yours. That is a humbling realization, G'Kar. If, with a single wrong word, I can become the enemy, do I any longer really understand who the enemy is?" - Londo
The entire scene is gold.
What you don't realize until the end is that Londo is only playing evil. He actually has this whole scenario planned with G'Kar. He is just playing evil so anyone spying on him thinks he's betraying G'Kar!
Zathras is cute, in an annoying kind of way, did you know pet cats have been named after him? (not in my household btw)
Agree, we love B5!
I love him so much xD
@lordshadow69 Characters, maybe. But not effects. It was rather low-budget. And there were some low-key characters in Babylon 5.
What influence of Star Trek? Seeing as this was written years before DS9...
I actually think that the episode continuity of b5 influenced ds9. Before b5, the star trek episodes were pretty 'stand alone' but for a few 2 parters
JMS pitched B5 to Paramount...
After a year of reading JMS' treatrment for the show, they said, "No thanks..." then plagiarized the idea to create, "Deep Space Nine". ;)
like
He did it for us, the audience, but in real life would it have been better to keep him from knowing the real reason?
No, Mollari was never a "nice guy," but he never seemed quite as cruel as N'toth or the pre-enlightened G'kar. Those two would far better fit the description of "cold-blooded"--literally and metaphorically.
When Morden interviews ambassadors, it is clear Londo is the most useful to him by his positive traits and intentions: personal ambition, nostalgia, dreams, wellbeing and prosperity of his people. G'kar was just expressing pure hate and resentment, which can be manipulated, but exhausts too soon for a Shadow campaign scale plans...
The operative word is "seemed". G'kar, if you were paying attention, was never quite the villain he seemed and Londo never quite the amiable buffoon he seemed in the first season. Remember it is G'kar who said "People here are not quite what they seem".
That is not quite accurate. G'kar mentions that he wants justice and that he wants his people to be safe. That indicates, if you pay attention, that G'kar has limits to what he will do or be involved with. Londo does not mention anything that could be construed has limits to what he will do in order to achieve his goals. So yes G'kar mouths an explosion of hate but even so his hate doesn't quite run away from him. In the second season episode in which G'kar learns, after planning to murder the visiting Centari Emperor, that the Emperor had intended to apologize for what the Centari had done to the Narn, G'kar's attitude shifts radically. A Simple apology is enough to lift a lot of the hate from him. That indicates that with G'kar, at least, appearances were indeed deceiving.
Which was also done in many places before Star Trek. ST is not the be all and end all of SF, and given the background and creation of this series, ST had a minimal influence: in fact, the other way around for DS9. All of which is pretty thoroughly documented, so your whiny juvenile snark is kind of pointless. Appreciate ST for what it is, and appreciate B5 for what it is.
Because it's largely incorrect, as you'd know if you read the stories behind both shows. As SF, ST undeniably has some small impact on any other SF show, but as the B5 creator has written over and over, they wanted to get away from the ST way of doing and showing things as they could- so it influenced B5 as something to avoid/differentiate from, not copy. And yes, continuing to argue from ignorance is juvenile, sorry.
Well shit
No. Trying to do something different and unrelated is not influence. Read JMS original and detailed concept notes- no relation to or influence from ST anywhere. And no, calling out arguments from ignorance isn't juvenile. Continuing them is.
It wasn't juvenile. It was a legitimate point because you were answering questions about things I wasn't talking about. I never mentioned DS9. Not once until you did. You are really hung up on DS9. Babylon 5 influenced DS9. DS9 was influenced by Start Trek and other sci-fi before it. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? (continued)
this was the Londo i didnt like at all, when he was petty power mad and blind, before he grew up ..poor Vir
it's a trap
watch whole show
I don't understand why Straczynski heaped such misfortune upon Londo. He is surely a beloved character by fans of the series. When things start out he is a cheerful, boisterous, charismatic figure, but by the end of the series he's a ruined man. I don't think it was necessary for him to suffer so much. I have read online that he has some sort of heroic or redemptive death but I never saw anything like that. At the end of season five things are kind of left up in the air and unresolved. Everyone else gets a good send off but with Londo you have to go back to earlier in the series and review those dark visions of the future when he is old. I didn't even realize that was the future. I thought maybe it was just visions of what could be or merely hallucinations. So if anyone can help me out in processing why things go so badly for Londo and tell me how things do end for Londo I would appreciate it.
That there are consequnces in life. And that even bad tidings can fall upon good people.
G'Kar did kill Londo and Londo did kill G'kar, at the same time, with their hands around each others' necks... but instead of it being for enmity, it was for friendship.
Londo was being controlled by a living Drak implant and had discovered that if he drank just the right amount of alcohol, he could send the implant to "sleep" for a short time. Londo managed to communicate this information to G'Kar during one of these times and asked G'Kar to kill him before it woke up, since there was no way of removing the implant/creature without killing Londo anyway. G'Kar obliged and as he did so, the implant/creature woke up and, understanding what was happening, forced Londo to choke G'Kar. It's strongly implied that they died at the same time, not as enemies but as friends. G'Kar willingly sacrificed his life in order to do what Londo wanted.
Landon was given 5 chances, according to the previous Emperor's wife (played by Majel Barret Roddenberry, of all people) to avoid the fire that awaited him. At the time he was told this, he had already squandered 2. The last chance he had was to "succumb to his greatest fear, knowing it would destroy him"
That would be G'kar.
If not for them at the last, Lando would have continued as a puppet, his successor would have been chosen by the Drakh, and the Centuari would have been nearly irredeemable. His sacrifice at the end eventually saved his people, though there were few who would even know or appreciate it
That's how drama works. The hotter the hell that the characters go through, the better the story.
But don't you see that the fact that they had to try to get away from Star Trek shows that it was influenced by it? And calling me ignorant is pretty close-minded and juvenile in itself, sorry.
Not really at his best here though is he?
Wtf? No, it's not, especially when nothing of the kind is 'in plain sight'. JMS' original notes and ongoing production comments make it very clear ST was not an influence on B5. Cope with it.
Be careful trashing the 'ideal' future nothing wrong with being optimistic. If you told people in the 19th century about social welfare , the NHS, the European Union, the internet they'd say you were mad
One of the better actors on the show. It desperately needs a fresh reboot. The story is great. With fantastic actors and the money for production this could be a fantastic new franchise. But no...
Problem is now it would be filled full of sex and fancy cgi explosions and no depth. Though I like the Expanse
It doesn't need a reboot. It would be ruined. Just release a Hi Def version of the original
Aurora Jones
There has never been a successful reboot. Reboots are weak attempts by people who perceive themselves as being creative while the truth is that they lack the ability to create their own creations so they pillage the creations of true creators who came before them. *If they are so damn creative, they should create their own creation from scratch!*
@@briandeschene8424 I would argue that the Battlestar Galactica reboot was good, but then, that really took its basic premise and name, with a few visual elements from the original show and pretty much did its own thing from the start.
Only towards wilfully idiotic arguments.
Say, why Lando speaks English with fake Eastern European accents, and Vir speaks English with East Cost American accent?
You'll find that concept was invented well before ST, and no, that was not the development concept behind B5, that's the setting. You'll also find it very well documented that ST had a minimal influence on the develop of B5, even though DS9 ripped it off wholesale. Your whining snark is pointless, it doesn't change those facts. Just enjoy the two shows for what they are.
The effects of Bablyon 5 don't come close to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the aliens are poorly designed, such as the Centauri, and the characters are just not as interesting. To each his own.
The effects are a product of budget, and DS9 had a vastly larger budget than B5 had. The aliens are no more poorly designed than Star Trek's humans-with-funny-heads designs, and in several cases featured aliens more exotic and diverse. The characters are full of depth, more interesting, and speak dialogue that feels far less like it was written by a committee of very boring people. B5 is, in all the important ways, a superior experience to DS9.
To each his own.
That's nonsense. While the budget was much lower, the characters are amazing in Babylon 5 and the dialogue is outstanding. Was a great show. DS9 is also my favorite Trek series, and it's success is partially due to copying ideas from Babylon 5. Most notably, a long term background story arc.