Thanks a lot @Melderon for taking an interest in my tool! It's been a great pleasure collaborating with you on this project and hopefully we'll keep that going.
@Craestation to be honest it seemed to be consensus in the community that the 3.5 sec cast and 15 sec duration were the reference times. These values were also used by the old Vanilla addon TheoryCraft, and have been verified on the Classic Beta :)
One very important point that the calculator does not incorporate - and really it should - is your in combat mp5 rate, mana pool and length of encounter. Saying that the lowest/2nd lowest rank of some spell becomes the most mana efficient when you hit X healing power may be true, in practice your total mana pool will be such that you will be able to cast higher ranks of that spell continuously for an entire encounter without going oom. Also for whatever reason on the graphs its going to 2k healing power which is nowhere near attainable for any class in vanilla. Around 1k naxx geared fully enchanted is more reasonable, with priests being a bit higher. All in all though its a good start.
I wish I could have linked this to my GM when he demanded that all priests spam flash heal for MC. After the first pack of Molten Giants I knew something was deeply wrong. I whipped out my TI-83 from high school, ended up with every rank of Heal and Greater Heal on my bars, and just prayed that nobody noticed me. Maximizing mana efficiency by predicting which rank of heal to use on who was some of the most fun I've ever had playing WoW. It was even more thrilling because I was breaking the rules. Thank you Melderon and Ozgar!
We are very proud of this guide and tool. Let us know how it helped you heal more efficiently! Link to Google Slides: docs.google.com/presentation/d/1gpVWKEQaBOkLA-Gp_lbnIqqVRCwSiiSt985gyKr2KwE/edit?usp=sharing Timestamps: 00:09 - Introduction 00:50 - What is Downranking? 01:47 - Why Should I Downrank? 02:32 - Other Things to Consider when Downranking 02:53 - H/DpME vs. H/DpS and their Importance 04:26 - How the Situation also Matters 05:16 - How do H/DpME & H/DpS Scale? 06:06 - Understanding Spell Coefficients 07:11 - How Spell Coefficients Work 09:06 - Quirky Spell Coefficients 10:23 - Pre-20 Penalties 11:44 - How Talents affect Spell Coefficients 13:09 - The Effect of Spell Power on H/DpME 15:40 - The Effect of Spell Power on H/DpS 16:58 - Downranking before Level 60 18:25 - How do we Weight H/DpME and H/DpS? 19:54 - Introducing Ozgar’s Downranking Tool and the HES Metric! 22:19 - Understanding HES 23:17 - Breakpoints aren’t Everything! 24:56 - Know your Toolkit and how to Compare between Spells! 26:51 - The Future & a call for Feedback 27:50 - Conclusions and more Defcamp & Melderon TV Content
I tend to to "separate" the best players in a game into Elitists and Elite players. Elitists are undeniably skilled and dedicated, but they are cliquish, exclusive types who are often quite arrogant and work for themselves or at best for their small inner circle. Elites are just as skilled and dedicated, but they are inclusive, humble and go out of their way to work for the entire community of the game, either in-game or by means of guides etc. You guys, Kargoz, Frostadamus, Ozgar et al are Elite players, 100%. Which is why I follow your content. Thanks so much for taking all this time to establish a healthy community and going out of your way to help everyone become better! Hopefully, I'll run into your alts on EU servers :) Greetings from Greece, D&M and community! Can't wait to share the World of Warcraft with people around the world once more!
I’ve spent 12yr in a career that pretty much requires statistics to understand at the base level (the creating the modeling level, which I don’t do, I apply the modeling in my job). Through some roundabout schooling, transfers across multiple programs, and dumb luck, I managed to avoid taking stats as a course. I’ve never once in that 12yr thought for a single moment that I should have taken it, or that skipping it was a bad idea. But 8 minutes into this video I’m regretting having never taken stats. Thanks, guys. I’m going to second guess myself for life now. 😂
Mad respect for what you do melderon. Classic is going to be insane when people have such easy access to in depth guides and tools. I cant wait to see the contrast in dedication/skill between players 15 years ago to now.
I used to use DrDamage add-on back in TBC. It did all this, in real time, in game with a tooltip on all spells. I think the developer stopped updating back in 4.0. If you could do this it would have even more of an impact on the community. Thanks so much for what you've done here.
Ahhh, now the useful healing stuff is finally starting to rear its beautiful head. I haven't seen good mathematical breakdowns on this since some of the old forums that have long been dead, forgotten, and unknown to those who really only played Pservers for their classic experience.
Sick! Always wanted a guide about coefficients and downranking. Thank you guys for putting in the work. This is insanely in-depth!! Totally nuts to look at those crazy detailed numbers and graphs
Great Guide! :)One additional Thing I would like to mention: There is another circumstance where I prefere a higher rank heal over a lower one: Instead of using HW R3 3 times, you can use HW R10 1 time and then don't heal for 5 seconds to trigger the 5SR (5 second rule) und increase your mana regen. This Situation is maybe more realistic on 5 or 10man Content (where you don't get heal-sniped), but it is something to Keep in mind imho.
hey, just another tip to add. Rank 2 fireball and frostbolt have a reason for rank 2, as the slow lasts 1 sec longer and the dot lasts 2 seconds longer. rank 4 frostbolt and fireball lasts another 1/2 seconds. if you are dotting a running rogue this matters.
Wow melderon! This is amazing. One of the reasons I was never good healing in vanilla other than I was 10 was that I never knew witch heal to use. This tool is amazing and I can't wait to use it in classic!
Thanks for the tool and graphs. Really interesting to see it visualized instead of going with a gut feeling like I did in 2005. EDIT: And thanks for the "tips" :'D
Finally! A downranking guide that actually goes in depth into the math, thank you! Definitely going to use this tool! Also I got giddy when you used natural logs, lol.
Amazing video. Really informative! Only thing I would add to your dps slide is using lower ranks pre 60 in order to kill an enemy on low health, when a high rank would overkill, saving mana and sometimes having a shorter cast time, speeding up the kill.
Great work on the tool and great video and overview. Small nitpick tho: "HpME" should just be "HPM" as that is the amount of healing you get per mana spent, which is what you're calculating. "Healing per mana efficiency" or HPM efficiency is your goal which you can achieve by calculating and comparing HPM across different ranks.
this is awesome for someone like me, im new to wow and roll a priest on a privat server too find out if this game was something for me, result im wating for wow in few days so yes it is me, but how ever i found my self overhealing and was told to down grade my spell, and that it here this tool is going to be very very helpfull. i now have a way to make overhealing less and keep my mana for longer periode off time before drinking as an priest in dungon party, yes i havnt tryied raids yet but i hope to do so in wow classic. thank you for making this great tool and guide to get into the healing mind and hopfully , it will make me a better healer. thank for you great content as always gl on classic.....just at the corner. :D
Finally... (Edit) okay, nvm me being impatient! Holy faeces, you guys are going all the miles for the rest of us!! I'm awestruck by the amount of work you must have done here. Comments I have after seeing this: -Definitely never gonna be a healer, shaman tanking starts to look real simple😅 - Are you saying I should wait training my spells until I dinged 20? - looking forward to hearing what this lvl of scrutiny can do for the elemental shaman! Br Batjohn
Thanks man! Appreciate it! Yeah, when you aspire to be a good healer there is A LOT of things to consider! You should try Shaman tanking :D I tried it for a while on a private server, only issue is that I would mostly only get to do it while running dungeons with my Guild mates, since they knew I could pull it off. Most PuGs still frown upon a Shaman tank :( And no, you need those pre-20 spells during the actual leveling! And as you can see in the tool, they actually do catch up with the higher ranks provided that you have enough +Healing
Holy crap! This is amazing! I am playing healer (priest) for the first time in a vanilla setting when classic has come, this will be insanely helpful for me. I will use this for sure! Thank you guys :)
This was nuts. Cheers both of you. I feel I might be to daft to use this, as I like to smash buttons and heal like a pro for 30 seconds. But that said, I am going watch your other vids now... Thank you
This is an excellent presentation. I was hoping it would help with my down-ranking thinking but I don't believe it does. Yes it compares the efficiency and throughput of different ranks of heal spell ... eg. the break-point of approx 210 Spell Power rank 3 v's rank 10 and enables choices to be made around this. But I believe there is another dimension that needs to be factored in - and that is the size of your mana pool ... i.e how much additional mana have to sacrificed to get the additional Spell Power? This is the element I am struggling with - my approach to date has not been to look at HPS or HpME but instead to look at total heal output for a range of Spell Powers, Spell Ranks, Boss Kill Time and Mana Pool sizes over different times you would expect a boss fight to last. e.g 1min , 1.5min, 2.0min, etc. I don't have the ability to work out an equation that determines the breakpoints of the SP v Mana Pool v HPS relationship put i have made a table that helps me select the best gear for different situations. I would be interested in other people thoughts and solutions. Thx
This is what i miss most with vanilla wow, when downranking was important everywhere as a healer yes even in Naxxramas where it was probably the most important.
AWESOME! Congratulations for a good job! For the DPS tools you might want to consider adding a wand-spell (something like) comparison. Since Wands are free mana. And some low rank spells might do less damage than some wands/weapons when we are low on SpellPower.
Melderon I respect what you do(And please use Alliance races, especially for a healing guide. Undead priest is unbearable to look at). However, I do think this is exaggeration. It's more fun and also better for the player to evaluate which heal to use in which situation. That "experience and understanding" is ultimately makes them an overall better player/healer. This thing is becoming like those one-button macros that do "the whole rotation" for you, that choose everything for you. Plus, it's not fun. Other than that appreciate the additional information and love your passion for the game.
on the contrary, this guide makes you think even more about what heal to use. As stated, likely 10 times in this video, you still need to know what rank to use in what situation. The tool can only provide you insight, not make you a better healer. And, on the faction note, it pains me to even add Alliance images in my guides ;)
@@DefcampMelderonTV You seem passionate about the game. So, you'll know that, for the most part, 90% of healing classes are Alliance-based lorewise; Only humans use holy magic and Night Elves are the original/only druids in Warcraft Universe. I can understand some Horde healing for faction-balance purpose s but Undead holy priest is literally the most lore-ignorant thing you can put in a video. Holy Magic burns them, they can not heal by definition. Just the least consistency of healing lore, is all I'm asking. Because the video in itself is great. Very valuable information and great work.
@@sek9777 lore is not a concern in this particular video. I suggest compartmentalizing the two a bit more, especially when going to healing theory. In all seriousness, I want to represent the player base in my videos. Lots of people play undead preists, hence they go in the video
Omfg math sooo much math math math math math math .... amazing breakdown Mel but god damn was that hard to get through lol 😂 😂😂😂😂😂... didn’t realize I was signing up for a god damn college course. Do you have a life? Jesus Christ can’t imagine how much time it took to make that.
My way of theory crafting back in the day, was to download a dps meter and empty my mana with rank 3, 4 and 5 Healing touch. Then compare hps, total healing. In my testing i came to the conclusion that rank4 was the sweetspot for me. Never knew about the lvl20 penalties tho. If i remember correctly rank 4 was a 0.5 sec faster to cast and that was what made me go with that as my main spell. Might be wrong tho, its like 13 years ago or something.
Although I spent almost all my vanilla days on my prot warrior, that wasn't only the downranking healers/casters did, i might go and ask my RL friend who played resto druid but I think they spammed lower ranks and used some other higher ranks in preset events like a big hit or a tank spike
What is the reference cast time? Also, what about the 5 sec rule. Is it not better to cast one big heal (or high HpS heal), instead of two smaller to get the 5 sec rule ticking sooner, in some cases?
The reference cast time is what blizzard uses to calculate coefficients. It's 3.5s for cast spells and 15s for HoT's and DoT's. That's an interesting point that is very hard to explain due to the fact that it is different depending on the encounter. Usually you will be heal sniped, so its better to use more mana efficient spells in raids. But in dungeons, you should optimize both HpME and HpS
Never knew about the level 20 penalties. It has some interesting implications especially for level 19 or level 29 twinks if it's actually true - it might make sense to basically wand/auto attack one's way to level 19 / 29 so as to allow for training all ranks of spells at level 19?
No, it doesn't matter at which level you actually train the rank, it's the level when it becomes available that is used. And you need the lower ranks to be able to learn the higher ones.
So to sum things up for the big dumbs like me: when you want to be mana efficient and have decent healing spellpower for the most part just use the lowest rank of a heal that has the longest cast time. Just make sure that the skill is learned past lvl 20.
Awesome guide, but I do have one gripe with it. The guide suggests downranking to top off people who don't need as much healing which makes sense on a surface level; if somebody is missing 1000 hp why spend the mana to heal them up by 1800 hp right? But my counterargument is this, why heal them at all? If they are not taking consistent damage then you can just let them hover where they are. If they ARE taking consistent damage, like a tank for example, then you can just wait until they receive slightly more damage before queueing up a bigger heal. Smart use of the 5 second rule is going to pretty much negate any extra mana efficiency gained by downranking.
Could ya'll do a vid on flightpath tricks? I recall that in TBC there were one or two flightmasters in Kalimdor you wanted to skip because they were in the middle of another, useful flightpath and if you took those masters it would add time to the flight as the bird would check in on that flight master during it's other journey. I have no memory where these were. Someone has told me Ratchet is like that on the Horde side but I don't know which flightpath it extends.
Nice guide, so useful, Tysm. But why is your tick is 3 seconds while healing (15sec-5ticks, 21sec-7ticks)? After all, when regenerating mana, a tick is equal to 2 seconds.
how do these formulas get effected by talents that reduce the cast time? is it based on the pre-talent cast time or the current cast time of the spell as it is being cast?
As Rym said, the talents and buffs are always applied after other coefficients have been calculated. However, talents will still affect your HpS and HpME, and should be taken in to account while selecting your rank.
Great stuff and exactly what I was looking for. I can walk away from the spreadsheets :) An embedded talent calculator and gear picker would be awesome as an option to arrive at the spell / healing power etc while keeping the quick input version. So many possibilities...do you have a git project?
That existed in vanilla, it would pick the best rank for your targets current missing hp. However, sadly you still couldn't one button heal since it couldn't predict incoming damage, and might choose too low ranks.
Did something like this with bleed clipping / snapshotting (feral) in MoP... dynamically running #s on RoR, the ~20s SOO engineer trinket vs. SR uptime, Rip, Rake, FB, and projecting future cds and procs. But it's important to note that tooltips frequently lie, you have to run the #s in a separate lua thread, and then there's always the issue of what Blizz allows you to access and present in the middle of combat. WA2 has always struck me as borderline cheating, but whatever... that's what I ultimately used to present the information. Not sure if it still exists? Or will be ported in for Classic? I don't think this is that complicated though. The idealized feral rotation in MoP was over 1000 lines long... downrank healing can be approached much more qualitatively imo. It's important to find the qualitative* breakpoints that change how healing "feels"... one of the most important components of this equation wasn't even addressed. That is, length of combat / expected total mana pool. The tool also doesn't seem to address gear itemization... which is of course what drives the whole thing. There's no feedback loop to tell you... hey.. you need to be getting 300hp or 500hp to spam [downranked single target spell] on tank for xyz boss fight, or estimated time and damage for melee group, caster group, etc and how that relates to your total expected mana pool... finding where the periods of high damage that may require max rank chain heal. Maybe your raid comp/strat will be such that you don't even heal for a full minute before some mechanic where you spam chain for your entire mana pool. I have no idea, I didn't start until BC. It's good at identifying how far down you can realistically go w/ downranking -- but you could find that out in game by just healing people. Healers thankfully don't need target dummies for some experimentation. I guess this whole thing kind of just strikes me as death by info overload without getting at a specific course of action or strategy... either for gearing or encounter.
So if i got this right. If you learn, let‘s say a spell which is available at lvl 6, after you hit lvl 20, there is no penalty from this pre20 rule?! And if you learn the same spell straight away with lvl 6 you do not get the same „performance“ out of it in the late game? Sorry for the question english is not my mothertongue. And if i‘m right.. what is the purpose of this „rule“? Thx for reply and btw i watched nearly every shaman guide of you in thr last couple of days and i‘m impressed!! Well done sir :)
Hehe, no. They do catch up with the others with enough +Healing. Sub 20 penalty was introduced by Blizzard to counter the incredible power of downranking. But it does not make the spells unusable.
As Ozgar said, you definitely want them. the penalty continues throughout your leveling process but they are still useful, sometimes even better than higher ranks
Any chance you could do this for druid's healing touch? I could do the math myself but I dont know where to find the coefficients of healing touch's ranks
First off i love this video, thank you for the amazing information. I was wondering though as a new priest just hitting 60 is it worth using heal over greater heal? if so do people use multiple ranks of heal of just rank 4? I'm only asking since they are essentially the same spell with greater heal just being a stronger version. Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me out :)
Most chars only use 3 maybe 4 heals for a raid, so bind those to whatever 1 thru 4 as example. Set alt1 to downrank1, shift1 to downrank2. That would give you 12 seperate buttons on 4 keys. Alternately, you can do similar things with mouseover macros and the mousewheel. Ymmv.
It has been addressed a few time already. But no, the actual level upon which you learn the spell has no effect. It's the level you CAN learn it that is relevant :)
No you should still train the spells, all we are trying to say is that they have a coefficient penalty. You won't have any +healing so it won't matter. They are still great heals
Happy Fresh, everyone!
Ozgar has been nice enough to rehost the tool for Fresh: wowdownrank.ozgar.se/
Cheers :D
Thanks a lot @Melderon for taking an interest in my tool! It's been a great pleasure collaborating with you on this project and hopefully we'll keep that going.
Was my pleasure, man! Can't wait to see what else we can accomplish!
@Craestation to be honest it seemed to be consensus in the community that the 3.5 sec cast and 15 sec duration were the reference times. These values were also used by the old Vanilla addon TheoryCraft, and have been verified on the Classic Beta :)
One very important point that the calculator does not incorporate - and really it should - is your in combat mp5 rate, mana pool and length of encounter. Saying that the lowest/2nd lowest rank of some spell becomes the most mana efficient when you hit X healing power may be true, in practice your total mana pool will be such that you will be able to cast higher ranks of that spell continuously for an entire encounter without going oom. Also for whatever reason on the graphs its going to 2k healing power which is nowhere near attainable for any class in vanilla. Around 1k naxx geared fully enchanted is more reasonable, with priests being a bit higher. All in all though its a good start.
Some good suggestions here. Although length of encounter is much too variable to model.
A big thank you for all your work you put into the calculator!
This video make me brain remember why me play strong warrior, me no good with math, me smash thing do big hurt
Word.
then you have not watched, ruclips.net/video/lLD12oUwJoE/видео.html
This is an extremely impressive tool, and guide. You all really did some serious leg work, and I at least appreciate the effort put into it.
I wish I could have linked this to my GM when he demanded that all priests spam flash heal for MC. After the first pack of Molten Giants I knew something was deeply wrong. I whipped out my TI-83 from high school, ended up with every rank of Heal and Greater Heal on my bars, and just prayed that nobody noticed me. Maximizing mana efficiency by predicting which rank of heal to use on who was some of the most fun I've ever had playing WoW. It was even more thrilling because I was breaking the rules. Thank you Melderon and Ozgar!
We are very proud of this guide and tool. Let us know how it helped you heal more efficiently!
Link to Google Slides: docs.google.com/presentation/d/1gpVWKEQaBOkLA-Gp_lbnIqqVRCwSiiSt985gyKr2KwE/edit?usp=sharing
Timestamps:
00:09 - Introduction
00:50 - What is Downranking?
01:47 - Why Should I Downrank?
02:32 - Other Things to Consider when Downranking
02:53 - H/DpME vs. H/DpS and their Importance
04:26 - How the Situation also Matters
05:16 - How do H/DpME & H/DpS Scale?
06:06 - Understanding Spell Coefficients
07:11 - How Spell Coefficients Work
09:06 - Quirky Spell Coefficients
10:23 - Pre-20 Penalties
11:44 - How Talents affect Spell Coefficients
13:09 - The Effect of Spell Power on H/DpME
15:40 - The Effect of Spell Power on H/DpS
16:58 - Downranking before Level 60
18:25 - How do we Weight H/DpME and H/DpS?
19:54 - Introducing Ozgar’s Downranking Tool and the HES Metric!
22:19 - Understanding HES
23:17 - Breakpoints aren’t Everything!
24:56 - Know your Toolkit and how to Compare between Spells!
26:51 - The Future & a call for Feedback
27:50 - Conclusions and more Defcamp & Melderon TV Content
this is clear, engaging, thanks for making this.
This will become so handy when classic comes and will really help alot of guilds get newer players onboard when it comes to late game raiding
I tend to to "separate" the best players in a game into Elitists and Elite players.
Elitists are undeniably skilled and dedicated, but they are cliquish, exclusive types who are often quite arrogant and work for themselves or at best for their small inner circle.
Elites are just as skilled and dedicated, but they are inclusive, humble and go out of their way to work for the entire community of the game, either in-game or by means of guides etc.
You guys, Kargoz, Frostadamus, Ozgar et al are Elite players, 100%. Which is why I follow your content. Thanks so much for taking all this time to establish a healthy community and going out of your way to help everyone become better! Hopefully, I'll run into your alts on EU servers :)
Greetings from Greece, D&M and community! Can't wait to share the World of Warcraft with people around the world once more!
This comment warmed my heart. Thank you for your kind words!
I’ve spent 12yr in a career that pretty much requires statistics to understand at the base level (the creating the modeling level, which I don’t do, I apply the modeling in my job). Through some roundabout schooling, transfers across multiple programs, and dumb luck, I managed to avoid taking stats as a course. I’ve never once in that 12yr thought for a single moment that I should have taken it, or that skipping it was a bad idea.
But 8 minutes into this video I’m regretting having never taken stats. Thanks, guys. I’m going to second guess myself for life now. 😂
Does watching this give college credits?
Tell your prof to email me ;)
Yeah do i earn [Undergraduate Scroll of Qualification]? Its my pre-job BiS
@@DefcampMelderonTV 😂😂😂😂😂
Mad respect for what you do melderon. Classic is going to be insane when people have such easy access to in depth guides and tools. I cant wait to see the contrast in dedication/skill between players 15 years ago to now.
I used to use DrDamage add-on back in TBC. It did all this, in real time, in game with a tooltip on all spells. I think the developer stopped updating back in 4.0. If you could do this it would have even more of an impact on the community. Thanks so much for what you've done here.
There's a similar add-on in vanilla called Theorycraft. I doubt it was as extensive though.
Ahhh, now the useful healing stuff is finally starting to rear its beautiful head. I haven't seen good mathematical breakdowns on this since some of the old forums that have long been dead, forgotten, and unknown to those who really only played Pservers for their classic experience.
The density of valuable info is amazing. I raid healed in bc and wtlk and didn’t know half of this. Thanks for the breakdown!
It is good to hear, that it is possible to heal without knowing all that. I thought I need a second monitor for the calculator.
Henning Wagner I’ve been healing without all of this and I’m holding up okay lol
Sick! Always wanted a guide about coefficients and downranking. Thank you guys for putting in the work. This is insanely in-depth!! Totally nuts to look at those crazy detailed numbers and graphs
Great Guide! :)One additional Thing I would like to mention: There is another circumstance where I prefere a higher rank heal over a lower one: Instead of using HW R3 3 times, you can use HW R10 1 time and then don't heal for 5 seconds to trigger the 5SR (5 second rule) und increase your mana regen. This Situation is maybe more realistic on 5 or 10man Content (where you don't get heal-sniped), but it is something to Keep in mind imho.
Correct, in 5 man's I almost always use higher ranks as I don't heal as often
hey, just another tip to add. Rank 2 fireball and frostbolt have a reason for rank 2, as the slow lasts 1 sec longer and the dot lasts 2 seconds longer. rank 4 frostbolt and fireball lasts another 1/2 seconds. if you are dotting a running rogue this matters.
You explain better than my maths teacher!
The amount of work you have put in is just astonishing! Thank you so much!! I can tell you heal because you care 😂😂
Wow melderon! This is amazing. One of the reasons I was never good healing in vanilla other than I was 10 was that I never knew witch heal to use. This tool is amazing and I can't wait to use it in classic!
Thanks for the tool and graphs.
Really interesting to see it visualized instead of going with a gut feeling like I did in 2005.
EDIT: And thanks for the "tips" :'D
Finally! A downranking guide that actually goes in depth into the math, thank you! Definitely going to use this tool!
Also I got giddy when you used natural logs, lol.
Amazing video. Really informative! Only thing I would add to your dps slide is using lower ranks pre 60 in order to kill an enemy on low health, when a high rank would overkill, saving mana and sometimes having a shorter cast time, speeding up the kill.
Great work on the tool and great video and overview. Small nitpick tho: "HpME" should just be "HPM" as that is the amount of healing you get per mana spent, which is what you're calculating. "Healing per mana efficiency" or HPM efficiency is your goal which you can achieve by calculating and comparing HPM across different ranks.
this is awesome for someone like me, im new to wow and roll a priest on a privat server too find out if this game was something for me, result im wating for wow in few days so yes it is me, but how ever i found my self overhealing and was told to down grade my spell, and that it here this tool is going to be very very helpfull. i now have a way to make overhealing less and keep my mana for longer periode off time before drinking as an priest in dungon party, yes i havnt tryied raids yet but i hope to do so in wow classic. thank you for making this great tool and guide to get into the healing mind and hopfully , it will make me a better healer. thank for you great content as always gl on classic.....just at the corner. :D
Congrats on both the guide and the tool. Both are incredibly useful and hype me to no end for being a healer in classic!
Finally...
(Edit) okay, nvm me being impatient! Holy faeces, you guys are going all the miles for the rest of us!! I'm awestruck by the amount of work you must have done here. Comments I have after seeing this:
-Definitely never gonna be a healer, shaman tanking starts to look real simple😅
- Are you saying I should wait training my spells until I dinged 20?
- looking forward to hearing what this lvl of scrutiny can do for the elemental shaman!
Br Batjohn
Thanks man! Appreciate it!
Yeah, when you aspire to be a good healer there is A LOT of things to consider!
You should try Shaman tanking :D I tried it for a while on a private server, only issue is that I would mostly only get to do it while running dungeons with my Guild mates, since they knew I could pull it off. Most PuGs still frown upon a Shaman tank :(
And no, you need those pre-20 spells during the actual leveling! And as you can see in the tool, they actually do catch up with the higher ranks provided that you have enough +Healing
@@ozgar9332 don't worry, I'm already in a guild, as an officer even, that is cool with me trying to pull it off :D
Holy crap! This is amazing! I am playing healer (priest) for the first time in a vanilla setting when classic has come, this will be insanely helpful for me. I will use this for sure! Thank you guys :)
Dude, this is amazing! No one told me I’d have a math test too! Thx for the hard work
My mind just blew up after all this quality informations
Still an awesome piece of work! ❤ Is the tool offline?
What a video, you guys are a gem to the classic wow community!
This was nuts. Cheers both of you. I feel I might be to daft to use this, as I like to smash buttons and heal like a pro for 30 seconds. But that said, I am going watch your other vids now... Thank you
Is this Tool gone ?? Link doesn't seem to work. Wouldve used it for Hardcore now ;D
This is completely mental...well done!
This is awesome. Good job with the project
This is an excellent presentation. I was hoping it would help with my down-ranking thinking but I don't believe it does. Yes it compares the efficiency and throughput of different ranks of heal spell ... eg. the break-point of approx 210 Spell Power rank 3 v's rank 10 and enables choices to be made around this. But I believe there is another dimension that needs to be factored in - and that is the size of your mana pool ... i.e how much additional mana have to sacrificed to get the additional Spell Power? This is the element I am struggling with - my approach to date has not been to look at HPS or HpME but instead to look at total heal output for a range of Spell Powers, Spell Ranks, Boss Kill Time and Mana Pool sizes over different times you would expect a boss fight to last. e.g 1min , 1.5min, 2.0min, etc. I don't have the ability to work out an equation that determines the breakpoints of the SP v Mana Pool v HPS relationship put i have made a table that helps me select the best gear for different situations. I would be interested in other people thoughts and solutions. Thx
This is it. The day math saves a life.
This is what i miss most with vanilla wow, when downranking was important everywhere as a healer yes even in Naxxramas where it was probably the most important.
AWESOME! Congratulations for a good job!
For the DPS tools you might want to consider adding a wand-spell (something like) comparison. Since Wands are free mana. And some low rank spells might do less damage than some wands/weapons when we are low on SpellPower.
Thank you for putting in the work, this is amazing. Also Classicwow.live is great. Excited to see all that you guys have been working on come to life.
Another excellent guide. Well explained!
Excellent video, my brain just leaked there and there, but otherwise just a very good classic healing guide !
OMG. I'm a hunter, and the only thing I can heal is my pet; however, I became immersed by this video/subject. Great job.
Great video and tool. Any plans to turn this into an addon?
My head hurts being a new shaman trying to learn resto lol but its helping me.
Good stuff. Thanks for putting this information together.
Is there a chance we get a database or something with sproc rates and/or spell power coefs of items?
Melderon I respect what you do(And please use Alliance races, especially for a healing guide. Undead priest is unbearable to look at). However, I do think this is exaggeration. It's more fun and also better for the player to evaluate which heal to use in which situation. That "experience and understanding" is ultimately makes them an overall better player/healer. This thing is becoming like those one-button macros that do "the whole rotation" for you, that choose everything for you. Plus, it's not fun. Other than that appreciate the additional information and love your passion for the game.
on the contrary, this guide makes you think even more about what heal to use. As stated, likely 10 times in this video, you still need to know what rank to use in what situation. The tool can only provide you insight, not make you a better healer. And, on the faction note, it pains me to even add Alliance images in my guides ;)
@@DefcampMelderonTV You seem passionate about the game. So, you'll know that, for the most part, 90% of healing classes are Alliance-based lorewise; Only humans use holy magic and Night Elves are the original/only druids in Warcraft Universe. I can understand some Horde healing for faction-balance purpose
s but Undead holy priest is literally the most lore-ignorant thing you can put in a video. Holy Magic burns them, they can not heal by definition. Just the least consistency of healing lore, is all I'm asking. Because the video in itself is great. Very valuable information and great work.
@@sek9777 lore is not a concern in this particular video. I suggest compartmentalizing the two a bit more, especially when going to healing theory. In all seriousness, I want to represent the player base in my videos. Lots of people play undead preists, hence they go in the video
That has to be the coolest intro I have ever seen
Absolutly awesome - one of the best guide in general!
Omfg math sooo much math math math math math math .... amazing breakdown Mel but god damn was that hard to get through lol 😂 😂😂😂😂😂... didn’t realize I was signing up for a god damn college course. Do you have a life? Jesus Christ can’t imagine how much time it took to make that.
I had a lot of help with this. But honestly, I really love doing thing like this
My way of theory crafting back in the day, was to download a dps meter and empty my mana with rank 3, 4 and 5 Healing touch. Then compare hps, total healing. In my testing i came to the conclusion that rank4 was the sweetspot for me. Never knew about the lvl20 penalties tho. If i remember correctly rank 4 was a 0.5 sec faster to cast and that was what made me go with that as my main spell. Might be wrong tho, its like 13 years ago or something.
Although I spent almost all my vanilla days on my prot warrior, that wasn't only the downranking healers/casters did, i might go and ask my RL friend who played resto druid but I think they spammed lower ranks and used some other higher ranks in preset events like a big hit or a tank spike
Great guide. Kept my interest while I did cardio. 😂
You get extra DKP for getting your +sta world buff. gj
So keen to try this website!! Awesome video thanks
What is the reference cast time? Also, what about the 5 sec rule. Is it not better to cast one big heal (or high HpS heal), instead of two smaller to get the 5 sec rule ticking sooner, in some cases?
The reference cast time is what blizzard uses to calculate coefficients. It's 3.5s for cast spells and 15s for HoT's and DoT's. That's an interesting point that is very hard to explain due to the fact that it is different depending on the encounter. Usually you will be heal sniped, so its better to use more mana efficient spells in raids. But in dungeons, you should optimize both HpME and HpS
Never knew about the level 20 penalties. It has some interesting implications especially for level 19 or level 29 twinks if it's actually true - it might make sense to basically wand/auto attack one's way to level 19 / 29 so as to allow for training all ranks of spells at level 19?
No, it doesn't matter at which level you actually train the rank, it's the level when it becomes available that is used. And you need the lower ranks to be able to learn the higher ones.
So to sum things up for the big dumbs like me: when you want to be mana efficient and have decent healing spellpower for the most part just use the lowest rank of a heal that has the longest cast time. Just make sure that the skill is learned past lvl 20.
watches this because I want to be a good healer for my guild. Has meltdown with any form of math...
Awesome guide, but I do have one gripe with it. The guide suggests downranking to top off people who don't need as much healing which makes sense on a surface level; if somebody is missing 1000 hp why spend the mana to heal them up by 1800 hp right? But my counterargument is this, why heal them at all? If they are not taking consistent damage then you can just let them hover where they are. If they ARE taking consistent damage, like a tank for example, then you can just wait until they receive slightly more damage before queueing up a bigger heal. Smart use of the 5 second rule is going to pretty much negate any extra mana efficiency gained by downranking.
10/10 video. Explained VERY well. Good work!
This is awesome--just now discovering it. Do you plan to update it for the TBC classic release to include TBC info? :)
Every healer should see this ...
det trengs
Could ya'll do a vid on flightpath tricks? I recall that in TBC there were one or two flightmasters in Kalimdor you wanted to skip because they were in the middle of another, useful flightpath and if you took those masters it would add time to the flight as the bird would check in on that flight master during it's other journey. I have no memory where these were. Someone has told me Ratchet is like that on the Horde side but I don't know which flightpath it extends.
Nice guide, so useful, Tysm. But why is your tick is 3 seconds while healing (15sec-5ticks, 21sec-7ticks)? After all, when regenerating mana, a tick is equal to 2 seconds.
Thanks for your hard work guys
Well done guys,cheers!
Wow. Fantastic job you guys.
how do these formulas get effected by talents that reduce the cast time? is it based on the pre-talent cast time or the current cast time of the spell as it is being cast?
Pre-talent, pre-buff
As Rym said, the talents and buffs are always applied after other coefficients have been calculated. However, talents will still affect your HpS and HpME, and should be taken in to account while selecting your rank.
Great stuff and exactly what I was looking for. I can walk away from the spreadsheets :) An embedded talent calculator and gear picker would be awesome as an option to arrive at the spell / healing power etc while keeping the quick input version. So many possibilities...do you have a git project?
Bake the logic into an addon that auto picks correct heals. Thanks!
That existed in vanilla, it would pick the best rank for your targets current missing hp. However, sadly you still couldn't one button heal since it couldn't predict incoming damage, and might choose too low ranks.
Did something like this with bleed clipping / snapshotting (feral) in MoP... dynamically running #s on RoR, the ~20s SOO engineer trinket vs. SR uptime, Rip, Rake, FB, and projecting future cds and procs.
But it's important to note that tooltips frequently lie, you have to run the #s in a separate lua thread, and then there's always the issue of what Blizz allows you to access and present in the middle of combat.
WA2 has always struck me as borderline cheating, but whatever... that's what I ultimately used to present the information. Not sure if it still exists? Or will be ported in for Classic?
I don't think this is that complicated though. The idealized feral rotation in MoP was over 1000 lines long... downrank healing can be approached much more qualitatively imo. It's important to find the qualitative* breakpoints that change how healing "feels"... one of the most important components of this equation wasn't even addressed. That is, length of combat / expected total mana pool. The tool also doesn't seem to address gear itemization... which is of course what drives the whole thing. There's no feedback loop to tell you... hey.. you need to be getting 300hp or 500hp to spam [downranked single target spell] on tank for xyz boss fight, or estimated time and damage for melee group, caster group, etc and how that relates to your total expected mana pool... finding where the periods of high damage that may require max rank chain heal. Maybe your raid comp/strat will be such that you don't even heal for a full minute before some mechanic where you spam chain for your entire mana pool.
I have no idea, I didn't start until BC.
It's good at identifying how far down you can realistically go w/ downranking -- but you could find that out in game by just healing people. Healers thankfully don't need target dummies for some experimentation.
I guess this whole thing kind of just strikes me as death by info overload without getting at a specific course of action or strategy... either for gearing or encounter.
I made it to the 10 minute mark before scrolling down to read comments!!! BTW, is this information going to be on the final?
So if i got this right. If you learn, let‘s say a spell which is available at lvl 6, after you hit lvl 20, there is no penalty from this pre20 rule?! And if you learn the same spell straight away with lvl 6 you do not get the same „performance“ out of it in the late game? Sorry for the question english is not my mothertongue. And if i‘m right.. what is the purpose of this „rule“? Thx for reply and btw i watched nearly every shaman guide of you in thr last couple of days and i‘m impressed!! Well done sir :)
very well done, this vid deserves alot more views. wish i could double like it
Is there a +healing (or +spellpower) cap for healers?
So if i'm understanding this correctly, I shouldn't learn any spells affected by spell power until level 20?
Hehe, no. They do catch up with the others with enough +Healing. Sub 20 penalty was introduced by Blizzard to counter the incredible power of downranking. But it does not make the spells unusable.
As Ozgar said, you definitely want them. the penalty continues throughout your leveling process but they are still useful, sometimes even better than higher ranks
Helps a lot. Ty guys!
Brilliant video thanks for putting this together
Any chance you could do this for druid's healing touch? I could do the math myself but I dont know where to find the coefficients of healing touch's ranks
Holy shit guys. This is amazing!
Is the downranking penalty calculated into this (post level 20 penalty)?
Fantastic video!
So this works? is based on all classic info and not private server data? asking before i link guild heals aug 2020
First off i love this video, thank you for the amazing information. I was wondering though as a new priest just hitting 60 is it worth using heal over greater heal? if so do people use multiple ranks of heal of just rank 4? I'm only asking since they are essentially the same spell with greater heal just being a stronger version. Thank you in advance to anyone who can help me out :)
Could you maybe show your keybindings? Because I don't know where to put 3 ranks for every spell I have and still have WASD to move lol.
Lol I was going to say the same thing. This is cool info, but I have a tough enough time juggling just 1 rank of each spell on all my hotbars.
Most chars only use 3 maybe 4 heals for a raid, so bind those to whatever 1 thru 4 as example. Set alt1 to downrank1, shift1 to downrank2. That would give you 12 seperate buttons on 4 keys.
Alternately, you can do similar things with mouseover macros and the mousewheel.
Ymmv.
so heal the tank good. got it
Incredible. Well done.
Should rename this Healing Academy lol. Awesome guide!
Math is for nerds! Thanks for the hard work.
Amazing video and an extremely amazing tool, ty!!
Does down ranking hurt your parse?
11:36 so is it recommended to just start learning spells after hitting lvl 20?
It has been addressed a few time already. But no, the actual level upon which you learn the spell has no effect. It's the level you CAN learn it that is relevant :)
The downranking tool doesnt work anymore :(
My head hurts!
I was thinking the exact same thing and was just about to write that but you bet me to it.
So, as a druid, leveling in Feral, I should wait and not train healing till after level 20?
No you should still train the spells, all we are trying to say is that they have a coefficient penalty. You won't have any +healing so it won't matter. They are still great heals
who else almost fall into sleep watching this? 😂
Just download the RaidHeal or GroupHeal addon, which downranks automatically for you.
Might as well get a bot as well, and you dont need to do anything yourself
This video gave me a gasm!
Thank You for this tool