It's intriguing since Akira Toriyama has gone on record that he writes by the seat of his pants yet managed to make a good payoff to Vegeta's posturing about being the legendary warrior. I feel like there's a Trope Talk in this style of writing, the ups and downs.
That's a really intriguing topic. I remember one author giving advice about how to work through writers block, commenting that "the unwritten page has a basilisks stare." But he broke it down really systematically. Go with three arc storyline, inciting incident, rising action, climax and so forth. Go for 5000 word chapters. If, in this chapter, you plan to get the character from point A to point B, create a rough outline. All of it seems very restrictive and uncreative, but it's sometimes liberating to have a set of rules to then bend or break. But yeah, counter that with Toriyama's (and as Jordan pointed out, most shounen authors) necessary strategy of "I only have seven days to produce a new chapter. I've been on this weekly grind for the last ten years and honestly? We're going with first draft ideas at this point." Very different writing strategies.
In cases where it's the author's choice and they have all the time they need, the benefit of writing like this is that you can concentrate on making strong characters since you don't need to have a plan for the plot to develop your characters. You also get to have more natural progression of plot events and character responses to them, since you are somewhat letting the characters drive. Naturally, the weakness is that if you realise you need a certain event or outcome you often have to force it inelegantly, and you have a much harder time creating grand or sweeping plots. You also have to spend all the time you theoretically saved on outlining on extra drafting, since you often have to tune or even rewrite early chapters based on later ones, since you had no idea what they were going to be. And, yeah, this doesn't apply to most Shounen writers, or people writing for weeklies in general. There you get barely enough time to first draft a script and throw it at the ink team, so you get all of the downsides without any upside.
At the end of the day, I think Toriyama got lucky with how good the Saiyan and Freeza arcs were. Writing by the seat of your pants is really risky because things can so easily go off the rails, become unsatisfying or become illogical. Like credit where credit is due, it requires great skill to write/draw fast and make sure everything lines up, which Toriyama did achieve with this arc, but other DB arcs, particular the Buu arc, really highlight the weakness of writing without a plan. And while the the Saiyan and Freeza arcs happened to be great, who is to say they wouldn't have been just as good if not greater if Toriyama had the time to plan them out? I really feel like nothing is gained by writing by the seat of our pants that couldn't be accomplished better when planning things out Well, nothing except meeting strict publishing deadlines which I am sure Toriyama must have been under. But at best writing fast results in happy coincidences, not meticulous and deliberately great stories. And I think the success rate is clear as to whether improving stories or planning them out is better. So few great tv shows, books, movies etc were created without a plan while the vast majority always had a general plan.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi I know you aren’t trying to take anything away from it but I don’t think it’s quite fair to attribute it entirely on luck, Dragon Ball was already a hit in Japan at that point and still took over western audiences even with the atrocious anime dub. There is some luck in basically everything but it takes skill work under the pressure he was under and still come up with the goods. Cell and Buu went down hill but I don’t think that quite proves he was lucky, Freeza really feels like that natural end of Goku’s story and you have to wonder if he would have continued without the pressure to do so. And really Cell still had enough high points most people still have fond memories of it even with some of the weaker writing. Basically I think the Sayain and Namek arcs were more than luck, have enough that carried between the two that he had some idea where he was headed (even if it seems Super Sayain may have originally been a joke) and I think producing what he did, the way he did still takes a lot of expertise in his craft. Could it have been better given more time to plan? Possibly, but we’ll never know for sure and it wasn’t really an option for him at that point.
Well what is cool to me is that EACH of them get it by letting their struggles go. GOKU gets angry. Vegeta lets go and doesn't care anymore. Gohan lets it all go and stops holding it in. I think that itself is an important message. We ALL want to get over that hump that we know is stopping us from reaching our true potential inside ourselves.
Regarding "Everyone is Super Saiyan Now"; I'm reminded of the 4-minute mile. It was long supposed to be impossible. However, once Roger Bannister showed it could be done, it became a realist target for top middle-distance runners.
Yep, this is Dragon Ball in a nutshell. Once some breaks a limit, then that limit becomes a common feat. It makes a lot of sense. But it does become ridiculous with how many more transformations there are. I only just finished the Cell saga and Dragon Ball is starting to lose its tactical fighting.
@@josephineparsons78 Not really? Beerus made a big deal of super saiyan god but by the end everybody and their mother could fight at super saiyan god level, which i find ridiculous bit well that dragon ball for you.
@@thomasffrench3639 Tactical fighting does come back a little bit in DBS, but it’s not super focal. However, DBS: Super Hero is a decent example of tactical fighting coming back. It’s not amazing or anything, but each character in the movie is obviously working towards a goal and not just rushing headstrong into the fight, but instead thinking about what role they need to fill for the team. I won’t spoil anything more about it, I just think you’d enjoy it if you want more tactical-ish fighting.
@@thomasffrench3639 The tactical fighting comes back a bit in Super, especially during the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 Tournament Arc, and really any other episodes involving the Time-Skipping assassin Hit. Roshi's Tournament of Power fights were also great examples of tactical fighting in a fantasy world.
44:18 i'm not sure i'd call that look one of "immediate regret". i always saw it as more of a disappointment/sadness. i don't think he regrets killing frieza, but he certainly didn't want to. it seemed more of a melancholically contemplative look, where he's thinking about his whole policy of mercy and second chances. like, maybe some guys are just so evil that second chances aren't even useful for them, and that probably clashes with goku's whole viewpoint on people and their capacity for change
I always took it as a look of regret, but at the fact that Frieza would not change when the others he had shown mercy did. Almost all of Goku's friends had tried to kill him at one time, and this was a time he went above and beyond to offer the same chance but Frieza wouldn't take it.
@@Bandit_King_YT I don't really see what paid off in the Cell saga that has something to do about this topic, actually...and Gohan never attempted to get 18 back. He didn't f**king care about 18 until she officially became Krillin's wife, basically. It was purely coincidental that he made Cell puking her out of him, as absolutely nobody, including Cell himself, expected this to happen the way it did. It seemed totally impossible to free 17 or 18 from Cell once he got them inside him. It merely happened like an accident. No one barely imagined it physically conceivable, in fact ! Pretty much like Dr. Brief with the muffin button in DBZA actually...¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯
52:36 That's 100% true. The super saiyan isn't like something told by an Oracle but a power of the ancient past Saiyans lost *because* they became ruthless.
@@MakeVarahHappen Established, and then invalidated very soon after when Vegeta became one. Which makes sense, because the "pure heart" thing has never made any sense. Goku's not even supposed to understand what a Super Saiyan is in that moment, but he suddenly starts talking like he does as if he actually has become some kind of messianic figure. It's a cool moment, but loses all logic the more you think about it.
@@damkylan3 I think you're perceiving Goku's comment about needing a pure heart as being too literal and attempt to invalidate it. Like the amount of hardship and brutality a Saiyan is almost universally proportional to how easy it is for them to go Super Saiyan. This is pretty well articulated in the plot. Goten in trunks have never seen combat a day in their life so it's mad easy for them to go Super Saiyan meanwhile Future Trunks has lived in apocalyptic wasteland forever and can only have it be ignited by his only mentor dying. Trauma actively stunts growth so ruthless sayings will never achieve it. It fits with what Goku was saying about him being special.
@@798jeremy as you can see in previous comments I made that specific element isn't just a universe 6 thing. You can just look at the original manga and come to that conclusion. Well, maybe not the Future Trunks bit because in the manga he can already go Super Saiyan before the story starts IIRC.
I mean... him being in the Dead Zone is his own fault. The ONE thing that would be worse for him than for anyone else. NOTHING else they knew of at the time would have finished him.
On the "there are usually only a small plot specific number of Senzu beans around" When they were first established in Dragonball, there were literally several medium sized pots full of them, easily a couple thousand beans all together One of Goku's friends (Yajirobe) didn't listen when he was told that a single bean serves as 10 days worth of food, and ate several handfuls After he hilariously expanded from eating like a years worth of food all at once, Yajirobe, just a few hours later, was hungry again It's never explicitly stated, but Yajirobe is the reason there are only like 12 beans at any given time, he eats all the others (as from that moment forward he lives on the tower where Korin, the cat who grows the beans, lives)
"Most people don't remember Nappa, he's not that important." Lies, Nappa was the most fleshed out and fully realized character in all of Dragon Ball. He had a degree in child psychology with a minor in pain, had an interest in entomology and insect reproduction habits, enjoyed playing Pokemon, and after the events of the Namek Saga went on to become a successful movie producer. i may have watched too much DBZA
Honestly, the best part is when this culminates in the buu saga with him realizing that Goten and Trunks can go SS and being all like "this mythological, superpower legend is now a child's plaything" and having a bit of a midlife crisis about it.
The thing to understand about Toriyama is that he's a born serial author. He doesn't plan ahead, but what he's very very good at is throwing a whole lot of details out and then picking and choosing which ones he wants to bring together to make the next chapter satisfying. He's dancing, not marching. The android and cell arcs are really interesting to examine for this very reason because when you know what was going on in the background (Toriyama getting playfully bullied by his editors to keep changing villains), you see that there was just no rhyme or reason to that whole set of arcs, and yet what do we get? It starts with the ghosts of Goku's past, things that can at least be loosely attributed to his deeds coming back to haunt the world, fatherhood and passing generations as a theme with Trunks, Gohan (compare and contrast), and all of Dr. Gero's creations (basically brainwashed to carry on his grudges). And so Cell is this melting pot of all the previous generation's abilities, and he wants to get stronger just like them. He's a monster made out of everything that they are, so they can't beat him and Goku becomes cognizant of this leading into Gohan, who doesn't want to fight at all, having to be The One True Foil to Cell. Solid indicator for all of this being intentional too is that Goku stops doing the hurt-yourself training, and basically just says it's self destructive. He knows the old tricks aren't going to work because Cell has them all. All with basically zero planning. Toriyama just throws a ton of stuff at the wall and assembles the pieces he likes chapter by chapter, and it all works out because he has a good instinct for theming. As an aside, I like the fact that Goku doesn't get that Gohan doesn't like fighting because it shows that Goku was really pitching over the horizon. He knew Gohan was the one to do it, sensed a sleeping power, understood that there was something different there, but he didn't know what made Gohan different or why.
This is... Really well thought out. Wait, then what was up with the Buu arc? I always here that was completely nonsensical and all over the place. Was it just Toriyama at his worst, or is there something of which I am unaware.
@@hellocentral5551 Actually Cell Arc was supposed to lead into Gohan being the main character for the rest of the manga and Goku was supposed to remain dead, but then editors reactions and fan reception towards Gohan as MC was less then stellar since many people still liked Goku and wanted him to be MC, so Toriyama was forced to change back to Goku as MC and scrap Gohan whole thematics of passing on the torch and stuff which retroactively made the Cell Saga kind lose its punch and made it become sorta pointless in my opinion. Meanwhile the powerscaling of DBZ had gotten uncontrollable and turned into exponential powercreep, since Cell was so absuredly powerful and DBZ at that point had turned from technique vs talent into just raw strength vs raw strength because that was what worked for the Cell saga and what audiences reportedly liked, so that forced Toriyama to stretch the scale of the story to just bloated proportions and so he created Buu and the Supreme Kai and this culminated into just a mediocre plotline that wasn't necessarily bad but had just twisted into itself and became winding and not very fun tbh.
@@dyppityjoop5912 Toriyama wasn't forced to drop Gohan and bring Goku back. That's just a dumb myth. He's been quoted saying, "I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." ... "Drawing Gohan’s daily life made me gradually realize he likes studying more than fighting." Toriyama, on his own, realized that Gohan would hate being the main character of a fighting series, that following Gohan's battles wouldn't be fun because Gohan doesn't have the personality to keep the story fun, not when it comes to serious fights.
@@hellocentral5551Toriyama seems to work best with an editor over his shoulder. Towards the end of the Android/Cell Saga Toriyama got a new editor that was more hands off than the previous 2 he had. This means that the Buu Saga is the one were he had the most free reign out of Z's stories. As expected from someone who originally started out as a gag artist/writer and famously writes by the seat of his pants, the arc with minimal editorial interference got a lighter tone and tended to jump from idea to idea. That isn't to say it's all bad, though. The Buu arc still manages to pull off iconic moments and memorable fights. But the overall plot is probably the weakest of all of Z's arcs due to Toriyama just kinda changing focus on a whim. Like wanting Gohan to be the protagonist, to changing back to Goku, but then still bringing Gohan in as the focus during Super Buu for some reason, only to change back to Goku and Vegeta for the finale.
One small extra info on the giant monkey thing: So you how everyone keeps it a secret from Goku since he killed his granpa... The first time Goku realized that he turns into giant mokey at fullmoon is actually when Vegeta transform during the Saiyan saga, and his first thought is... "I'm sorry, granpa. If I die, I will go apologize." Which is very nice and heartwarming, and such a shame that most western watchers wouldn't get it at first.
@@jawwer00 Nah, he met him way before that (like before Tien, even), and Goku didn't know yet. IIRC, Gohan did ask about it from the others and opted to keep it a secret from Goku as well when he knew the moon was gone thanks to Roshi (yup, the moon got blown up twice in this show...).
The way you've captured how strange the beginning of DBZ was without the context of DB was spot on, I remember watching it as a child without DB & just wondering what the hell is happening the entire time, but having fun regardless.
Agreed, it was so weird as a kid since DB felt like a prequel that was added on. Not sure the actual time table, but I remember watching the announcement for DB as a kid after we were like into the androids arc or farther
"Wait, what's going on here? I am so confused!" *Cool martial arts and superpowers* "Wait, what was I thinking? Couldn't have been important. Oooh shiny lasers!"
to me is interesting seeing in the comments how many people had this experience, it may be because i'm on the younger side (20) but in latinamerica they transmited dubbed versions of both DB and DBZ so i was already familiar with the characters and the overall story, i vividly remember watching DB every day on a national chanel called etceteraTV as a young child
The best thing about the whole "Training vs Talent" concept is that Vegeta comments on it on at least two occasions. Once after, Captain Ginyu steals Goku's body in Dragon Ball Z. And again in Dragon Ball Super when fighting Goku Black. Both times it is essentially the exact same message of Vegeta bragging that Goku's greatest strength isn't his actual strength, but his drive and strength of character. It actually reminds me of Superman's "World of Cardboard" speech. Superman starts off by commenting on Batman's tenacity by saying, "That man won't quit so long as he draws breath."
Vegeta wasn't the one who commented the issue with Captain Ginyu, but by Goku himself (he realized it when he saw he couldn't use Ginyu's body properly either). He did it with Goku Black, though.
@@JaelinBezel That was more so because he almost broke his moral code because he was forced to use a gun to threaten a crook since he had a heart attack on the job. If he didn't do that, he never would've stopped being Batman.
I haven't seen the new Broly movie, but there was an interesting possibility from the old movie that the gold-hair transformation isn't actually THE LEGENDARY super sayan. It could be that Broly's ability is the actual state that got passed down in the legends and what Goku found has a hidden achievement that no one had managed to unlock before. Vegeta could have been right about the prophesied LSS being merciless, and Frieza actually got taken out by an over-leveled peasant of no particular destiny.
Is this canon? I remember this being stated… while also not being stated? It makes sense though. When he fights broly at levels far beyond the ss (in the newest film) he still doesn’t stand a chance by himself. Meaning broly, with only one transformation, was able to match ss blue, which matches gods. We also see other people reach this level and boost from being weak as fudge… to being as strong as goku after he has train intensely for YEARS.
@@coldermusic2729 It's not canon. All the old Brolly stuff, like old the movies, were never canon. The Super Brolly movie, on the other hand, is totally canon.
You need to watch the new movie. Once the fight against Broly starts proper, it just keeps getting more and more peak of awesome. Its true (as far as in movie stating) in any Broly medium that his wild, uncontrollable, ever increasing power that is green-gold is what the LSS actually is, and what Goku first discovered is a diluted version.
It's also brought up in the Namek Saga while they're trying to figure out how to get to Namek. They talk about when Piccolo Jr fought a disguised Kame at the World Martial Arts Tournament and spoke an alien language, and that's how they remember that Piccolo and Kame are aliens and therefore Kame must have a spaceship.
That was the most disappointing transformation in the show for me. They actually set up how powerful Piccolo and Kami fusing would be in the Namek saga, which on top of them originally being the same person, had me really looking forward to this fusion happening. Then Piccolo kinda does it on a whim and it just allows him to briefly be on the same level as one of the secondary antagonists at that point
@@Maia_Cyclist For like an episode. This foreshadowed return of his true form couldn't stand up to the main villain and was immediately surpassed by every Saiyan
kind of the problem of scaling bad guys and the new ones being way way way stronger than the old ones since well Piccolo is kind of stronger than Friezza(and super sayians) which would have before gero went SCIENCE(the fact he can just make things that can either scale infinity or never run out of juice is just insane let alone how almost all of them are basically the strongest mortals at the time) mode and bulit said bulishit fighters made him like 3nd strongest being that can act freely in the universe if not a bit higher(2nd or 1st if you don't count any one with god powers) the 2nd or first is I think moro had his powers removed so he would of been weaker and well buu is sealed(and has god ki now embed into him on a deep level) and the other is Beerus(also he get knocked down a peg if you count people who are forced to remain neturel because Weiss
I want to call attention to something about the Super Saiyan transformation that I hardly see anyone talk about. When Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, his personality becomes far more hostile and belligerent, aka more traditionally Saiyan-like. So, I find it interesting that the same transformation just so happens to change Goku's physical appearance to more closely resemble the character who most represents the Saiyan race as a whole: Vegeta. His hair stands straight up and the the design of his eyes changes from the normal open circles to the closed-off, fully outlined glare that characterizes a lot of villainous Dragon Ball characters, including Vegeta. In short, Super Saiyan Goku more or less looks like a tall, blond Vegeta with bangs. Likewise, it's a funny coincidence that for Vegeta, for whome Super Saiyan is only a slight exaggeration of his default personality, has the _least_ extreme change in appearance out of anyone. He already has the evil eyes and hair that stands straight up, so Super Saiyan is literally just a palette swap. Just an interesting bit of (probably unintentional) thematic, visual story-telling that I don't see discussed very often.
I do find that very intersting. Yet also equally as interesting as the fact that Goku actually gains pupils in super saiyan, (techincally he gains iris', but you get my point). Something that is usually done to make a character more empathetic.
I don't think Gohan's Super Sayan transformation looks much like Vegeta at all. His hair looks WAY more like his Dad's when he transforms. It probably matters that the Super Sayan transformation was also a way of showing a character no longer cares about their own self-preservation. Remember Vegeta's monologue about how he finally unlocked his own Super Sayan transformation through *overwhelming self-hatred* to the point of a psycotic break. Everything Vegeta did prior to that in the series was in one way or another in service to his ego. It was only when he truly stopped caring that he learned the power of the Super Sayan. Which feeds into the theme of what makes Gohan so powerful during the Cell saga. He was born seemingly naturally selfless and doesn't enjoy fighting. So he basically stated with Super Sayan unlocked, he just had to level up enough to get there.
Interestingly, later on during the Cell Saga, Goku trains for one year (in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber so it's actually just one day) while in his Super Saiyan form. This causes him to be... let's just say "attuned" to the form, essentially making Super Saiyan a natural part of his base form. While in "Full Powered Super Saiyan" mode, Goku is much more like his regular amicable self, and his hair looks more like it does in his base form. This explains why Goku always gets a new, even stronger transformation. The previous one becomes just a part of him. In fact, this is explicitly what happens with Super Saiyan God. After enough training, Goku and Vegeta both make the red-haired Super Saiyan God part of their base forms. What used to be a grueling exercise is now a simple warm-up.
Also adding to the vagueness, Frieza blew up the Saiyan homeworld because he feared the rise of a Super Saiyan. Made even more interesting that the only Saiyan to stand up to him in the fray was Bardock, Goku's father, who looked almost identical to him
The best part is everything weird on DBZ’s earth can easily be explained by the Dragon Balls themselves. Someone wishing real animal people were a thing, someone wishing for dinosaurs to be revived, etc.
As cool as that theory is, the animal people thing was mostly explained/retconned in the Kakarot game as the result of Animorphaline. It was a drug that could temporarily turn people into beastmen/animal people and was a popular trend when Goku and Bulma were younger but, by the time of Z, it died down in popularity. It also turned out the Red Ribbon Army gained a good chunk of their funds by selling their own version of the drug, but it was apparently an extra strength version since one side quest you do is trying to help two guys who used the drug turn back to normal.
@@johnnygyro2295 Wasn't oolong, puar, and that one dog person (pilaf's henchman), and that one rabbit goku just put in the moon born as animal ppl?? Wouldn't that mean Animorphaline has been around for quite a long time?
DBZA did it best when Vegeta keeps getting powerups. Vegeta: You see, Freeza, you're not just dealing with average Saiyan warrior anymore--" Freeze: "Oh my god!"
GAGAGAGAGA I just disliked my own face because I am unpretty. HOWEVER: I always like my GOOD videos however. No dislikes allowed where I come from. Don't be mean, dear m
Fun Fact: Akira Toriyama, at the height of his Manga career, was basically a functional drunk. He would routinely spend 3-4 days out of a 7 day work week and rewatching old Jackie Chan movies frame by frame, modeling his fighting poses around it. tl;dr = It's why the action scenes are so good, and he STILL made his deadlines!
@@weirdofromhalo Which in turn reminds me of the huge amount of hope I had with Ultra Instinct, looking like it would bring some cool choreography and a bit of actual martial arts back into the series, only for it to end up falling back on the same style of fight animation they usually do.
I still remember watching this series for the first time as a kid and being genuinely scared of how different Goku became when he transformed into a super saiyan. I was uncomfortable and scared because he wasn’t the character I knew anymore and seemed like he would kill someone in a heartbeat. I never realized until the more recent years just how good of a writing decision that was
@@saturndotnet and Goku starts by yelling at his son. Goku almost never screams at people. Even going back to the 22nd Budokai in Dragon Ball, when the Crane School is flatout cheating to restrict Goku's movement, he doesn't scream. He just calls Tenshinhan a cheat and keeps pushing through it. And now Goku's yelling at his son like he's about to start smacking him around. I can totally see a young kid being freaked out by Goku's newfound attitude.
The best thing about this is Toriyama did not mostly plan this at all and one the reason for it is that they made it blonde to that they didn’t have to color goku hair in the manga and that save a lot of time
It was definitely not planned from the beginning of the manga, or even from the beginning of the DBZ portion. But it definitely was planned around the beginning of the Frieza saga, since Frieza himself name drops the concept early in the story. Of course, that's not to say that Toriyama had the entire arc planned in meticulous detail, but he definitely had a clear direction. That's why the Frieza saga has easily the tightest plot in the DBZ section, if not all of Dragon Ball. (The Saiyan Saga was also pretty tight, but also because the plot was very straight forward, while the Frieza saga has more twists and turns).
Also, in the manga the speech bubbles for Goku change. So, usually in the manga the villains have angular speech bubbles and all the good guys have round speech bubbles. But, Goku in Super Saiyan gets angular speech bubbles. It's a subtle difference to show character shift.
The text bubble changes again after Goku and Gohan’s training in the hyperbolic time chamber. His speech bubble as a full power SSJ is rounded again with the added changes to his eyes shape.
Also, Toriyama differentiated between heroes and villains by how much outline there was to their eyes. All the good guys have incomplete outlines, whereas the villains are completely outlined. It's a way to make the bad guys just a little bit unsettling by comparison. Anyway, whenever anyone goes Super Saiyan, their eyes get fully outlined. Goku, in a way, _became a villain_ when he transformed. It was all far too subtle for me to notice until someone pointed it out to me, but it's another cool subtle storytelling tool.
44:25 I never thought Goku regretted killing Frieza. I always thought Goku felt true pity for him, because unlike Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Demon King Piccolo, and to varying extent Vegeta, Goku couldn't level with Frieza on an emotional, humane level. The "you fool" is more like Goku coming to terms with Frieza's character and his disposition, and it saddens him.
I think it's regret because he truly never wanted to kill Frieza. Killing for him was something of a last resort, something he never wished to do unless it was absolutely necessary and he had no other option. He thought Freiza was a good opponent, another way of pushing himself to get better, and killing Frieza was the LAST thing he wanted, much like with Vegeta
Red mentioning the existance of 3 other chaotic superpowered monkeys in Journey to the West has now made me even more hyped for the next episodes, but also each year that we don't get there will hurt me a tiny bit harder
51:21 I love that he brings this up, because even Bardock shinanigans aside, there IS some creedence to the idea that Vegeta was right about the Legendary Super Saiyan. Brolly fits the prophesy as well, but he ALSO squeezes in the 'bloodthirsty and incapable of mercy' thing that Vegeta alluded to. And, to cap it all off, he falls more under the traditional prophesy mold that was discussed, in that he just IS that way, no training required. ...and he was also non-cannon for decades.
The canonical Legendary Super Saiyan from 1000 years ago blew up the original Saiyan homeworld. That's why Vegeta and the rest of the Saiyans remember him as an utterly merciless scourge of worlds. Planet Vegeta, the second Saiyan homeworld, was named that because it was conquered by King Vegeta. Also, Toriyama didn't just canonize Broly. He canonized Bardock in the same movie, and this Bardock is very different from Z's Bardock. He's basically a sneaky and smarter Goku now.
@@andrewsuryali8540 I like the theory that Yamoshi and Cumber were the first two Super Saiyans and fought on opposing sides of the civil war on Planet Sadala. Yamoshi almost won by using the Super Saiyan God ritual, but the time limit ran out, allowing Cumber to kill him. That victory was short lived though, since Sadala pulled a Namek and exploded, leading to the surviving Saiyans having to move elsewhere and with the historical war between Super Saiyans possibly being degraded into a legend that there was only one who accidentally destroyed their planet.
Every time Red says “that’s right... FRIEZA!” I can still picture vegeta’s stupid shit eating grin - the one which precedes existential panic after abject failure. Fucking champion video my dudes.
On the topic of Goku's behavior changing after the transformation, I remember Master Roshi talking about it on Earth in the anime. Apparently, he could sense him from earth and stated something along the lines of Goku being at a very dangerous point as a warrior and that this amount of sudden power(relatively speaking) can change a man permanently and not always for the better.
I think the part I liked the most was despite it totally satirizing the original piece, it also distilled a lot of the essence of the characters down without really changing them. A bit more snarky in places, but almost all the characters are recognizable as... well, the original characters.
@@kereminde Also sometimes arguably doing some of the characters better, especially the later Cell arc episodes where a lot of the side-action prattle actually was character development the show itself would usually gloss over.
Hard agree. For me, the Abridged Android/Cell saga is superior to the manga/anime original, if only for the better balance between comedy and seriousness (along with some story fixes thanks to the benefit of hindsight). It just feels better to watch.
Db is funny and z can be...I don't like the tone of z. It's way too serious and boring...look at the rocky mountain plains of where vegeta and goku fight...it's so boring to look at same for their rematch...namek is so boring of a setting...they fight 20 in a really boring setting I like 20's hideout and area where they have to find him and the road vegeta loses to 18 on and the island city hopping cell does where 17 fights piccolo on that volcano Island and the cell games occur in the same spot as the other plains battle aka in og db with king piccolo albeit with a little variety with the arena at least...boo takes us more to the sky and supreme kai world which is awesome but I hate how like namek it's very plain and since no one lived on it its empty but somehow has the z sword and kais and a witch in the past and they have earrings and there's comics...smdh...and mountain ranges somehow...fat boo fights us in the dessert too which sucks ass
@@gratuitouslurking8610 And, similarly, was building off things TFS had been saying earlier so... bringing old references back to the forefront as part of their final arc.
I somewhat agree, but I think the Battle of Gods ritual, as the last hope for the Earth and the revelation of Pan (chronologically, I mean anyone who watched the end of Z and/or GT knows that she'd eventually be there), was also pretty emotional. And also Vegeta's transformation during the Tournament of Power. It's not only a rejection of Ultra Instinct, but also a reflection on how far Vegeta has come, and on what he's fighting for - honor and love, rather than barbarism and hate.
No. It's for me the worse transformation. The others are more apathetic than bad, which by default make them better. This one is full on narrative feel manipulation and constant contriveness to justify changing completely a character. Gohan doesn't transform because someone actually important to him die and he feel guilt for not saving him, instead they take a whole ass chapter of having the important characters getting dunked on and tortured by somehow stronger than semi-perfect cell plot devices and only let go once a non character that have 7 lines of dialogue in the entire saga, only 2 of them shared with Gohan, is killed a second time. Gohan, you know, the kid that constantly go into rage mode in every single fight over any grievous injury of a friend, doesn't move over said friend being tortured, but the death of a nobody that he already though to be dead at this point do it ?
@@maxentirunos To be fair in regards to Gohan's rage, think about how old he was in every rage moment until he went Super Saiyan 2. Only 3-5, which likely makes his rage more equivalent to that of a "tantrum", but by the time of the Cell saga he's truly growing into a person with his own ideology he wishes more than anything he can stand by. He snapped when 16 died, because maybe he was at the end of the day, in the eyes of Gohan, a bystander that he could have saved had he not been so stubborn against letting everything out. Also, keep in mind, Gohan was holding back because he was afraid he might lose control and hurt someone himself. He knows about his explosive temper; how he attacks in a blind rage. Besides, remember Goku's words to Gohan when he first unlocked the new stage of power? "Get out of here before I lose any sense of reasoning I have left!" (At least in the dub), which could have engrained a sense of fear towards what he could do if even his own father had been so uncertain and angry at the time.
"People in the US didn't get DB before DBZ" Now every single discussion I had about it with Americans retroactively makes sense! Edit: I am German and the German dub for Kai got new voice actors who sucked and that's why many Germans didn't care for Kai. We loved DBZ as it was.
The first series was available, but it only really aired at something like 6am on a Saturday in the early 90's. So there are people like me who got some exposure first, but it certainly wasn't the full experience.
Crazy thing is, Goku typically always starts off his fights using only martial arts. He only slowly slides into the Saiyan form of brawling later in most fights or if he needs to change things up. At his core, he is a martial artist, not a Saiyan warrior.
The thing is that in the manga they acknowledge that he treats it like a power up and that he won't be able to truly master it until he can use it in his natural state
@@cccbbbccc5910doesn't Ultra Instinct just get stronger with every attack the user evades or deflects? So it kinda rewards Goku's use of martial arts, whereas Ultra Ego gets stronger the more damage the user takes, rewarding Vegeta's brawler fighting style?
@@woaddragon I agree. The way it was handled narratively may have been lacking, but the animation, music, and the scene itself were fucking incredible.
Red mentioning how often Vegeta says it in the original made me realize that DBZA didnt exaggerate his prattling at all. Making Frieza's growing annoyance of him very reasonable 8D
Freeza: *having seen Goku dodge all his death beams* "What happened? What the hell are you?!" Goku: "Don't you get it Freeza? It's just like Vegeta said." Freeza: "No you ******* don't..."
To its credit, SS4 from GT actually has a pretty cool thematic hook that sets it apart from the other Super Sayain Upgrades, and it actually takes the big monkey plot point full circle to tie it back into what sayains are about. It's a transformation that requires a sayain to directly confront and reconcile with the broiling font of insatiable violence lurking just beneath the surface of their personality. You could argue they don't explore that angle to its fullest potential, but conceptually I think it's a pretty cool idea
So i personally really like the idea of SSJ4 being the "true" legendary SSJ because of how primal it is. It feels like the thing vegeta described in the legend and has the added thematic of man and beast merging to become stronger than both. Also its the only damn time their aura and energy beams match color, I cant tell you how frustrating it is to see a golden aurad person fire a blue laser thats made from the same energy source
I’ve never read journey to the west or watched dragon ball z but I do know a fair bit about buddhism and I might be jumping a bit far with this one, but there is the idea (in some sects of buddhism) that while one can become enlightened through the usual paths of discipline and mediation and lifetimes of devoted study (training really hard) someone who is experiencing a life state of hell and suffering and yet maintainins the spirit of the buddha’s teaching (pure heart awakened by fury) can also become enlightened. That could be a really cool callback to the buddhist themes of journey to the west...or it could be me seriously over analyzing this show.
To be fair, given what Ultra Instinct is and what Dragon Ball is about generally, you're _possibly_ over-analyzing, but _definitely_ correct in saying that Buddhism is a part of this. It's kind of like how you don't need to be Christian in the western world to use Christian themes (or Greek mythology classics) for the sake of stories, it's buried _that_ deep into culture that it shows up here and there from time to time. The concept of buddhist-based enlightenment basically has that degree of influence in Asia, at least as part as I've been told by people who live there.
@@twaggytheatricks4960 Given how Toriyama would watch a lot of wuxia features (so much of the series' combat owes a lot to them, right down to certain techniques, the aerial battles, and high speed flurries of punches and kicks stemming from those films), it's pretty much a certainty that a lot of those ideas would've been embedded into his thought process while making the series.
@@Sawngawkuh Right? It makes perfect sense to me. Though I didn't know about that bit of information, I do know that wuxia choreographies are pretty much a _part_ of Chinese/Japanese culture _at least,_ and Dragon Ball is pretty freakin' full of it, so, yeah.
@@twaggytheatricks4960 Yeah. Chinese Martial heroes were all the rage at the time, which undoubtedly influenced a number of anime series back then. Fist of the North Star was another Wuxia-based series. Some have tended to misattribute a fair bit of DBZ's combat to FotNS (due to coming out a bit earlier), when the reality was that both works were just part of a larger genre.
I do like how, in the post-toriyama era, they did push the "this transformation makes our goofy fighty monkey-boy scary" button, with the way Ultra Instinct left Goku silent and grim and purely focused on fighting. But it didn't quite hit with the same emotional underpinning as OG super saiyan.
Well, not quite. ...Wait, shit, sorry- I should start by stating that I actually agree with your point, because it's- it's good stuff. They did manage to do Ultra Instinct justice in more than one ways. What I meant to say was: the point of UI was never to be _like_ Super Saiyan, and therefore the emotional impact is much _different._ Like, when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan for the first time and acted the way he did, shock, concern and hype for the cathartic beatdown that was sure to follow are sure to come by. But it's not like the moment where Goku masters UI and then _all the gods of Destruction just get up from their seat in sheer respect for having seen a mortal step in their realm for the very first time_ by mastering their state of mind didn't bring some well-done emotional underpinning. Especially when Beerus smiles a hungry, prideful smile at realizing that the dude he hung out with did what wasn't supposed to be really possible. It's just... different. Definitely comparable, but they can be equally impactful - they just don't bring the same kind of fun to the Dragon Ball's long-running fight-based hype table, so, they'll affect people differently.
i think that says more about what people like to see then about the transformations,if people rather see emotional rage moment then a calm collected fighter wel thats an issue in the psychology of these people,i rather like UI its actualy more interesting to me then ssj.
On an emotional level, I wasmost similarly impacted during Goku's Rage-Out when Zamasu and Goku Black told him about murdering Chichi and Goten. The transformation is a great representation of the mental snap, but the mental snap is what hit me most, so seeing Goku assumingly ready to merc these two gleeful genocidal murderers with prejudice is I think the clearest analogue. Which they foiled afterwards in a good way common in Super by Not having Goku solve every villain problem.
Ultra Instinct is lame. It's just a deathless cheat that rewards losing. It also makes the years of training and developing techniques seem pointless because ALL of that failed in order to activate it. No input needed from the user who is literally unconscious, it does the all the fighting for them. Rather than let Goku lose, or force him to learn his opponent or train some more, it just hands him the win after clearly losing. Like that's super cheap to me. You could give this transformation to any character and make them the strongest character in the series.
@@poly_g6068 you say it doesn't reward training as if the very first arc in Super isn't about them using the dragon balls to learn a ritual to become stronger
It's interesting how different the perception of DB is in the USA. In Mexico we got first a high quality dub of the original DB, which I used to watch before going to school around 1996. So we got to know Goku from its childhood, and then we saw DBZ with a fantastic dub, and DBKai was the bad quality dub for us, as it came around a time where the latin american dub was going downhill.
Funny you mention that. I got to see Sean Schemmel at an anime con once and he explained that, back then, they actually used the Spanish dubs of the series to make the English dub, because it was easier for them to obtain those than it was to try and obtain/translate the originals from Japan.
I remember being excited to the Kai's opening (read: modern animation) and then extremely dissapointed with the episode's animation (read: 1996 quality). I didn't watch Kai because of that. Also, Saludos desde Argentina!
Yeah this here, Latin American DB and DBZ dub was incredible. It was the golden age really, 90s and early 00s mexican dubs were some of the best out there, Gundam Wing's was amazing and right now I don't remember other animes from back then (I watched DB and DBZ the first time in a rerun around the 00s same with Wing) but everything went to hell in the late 00s because everybody just watched subs in the internet, we've gotten some of the quality back these days but it's not the same. We have to thank the gaming industry for that, after they started voicing games with Latin American voices for us the guys in the TV realized that we wanted characters voiced with accents we recognized and didn't sound weird (I'm talking about you Spain!).
@@Falzyker From the same era I have precious memories of Ranma 1/2, Digimon, Slayers, Magic Knigths Rayearth, Ghost Sweeper Mikami and Ghost Stories with Shaman King being the last dub I really enjoyed. Back then was also the time when even the openings of those animes got a loyal full translation instead of cheap jingles (I cringed hard when i heard the "Digi-rap" the US used for Digimon instead of Butterfly, or whatever was called that they used for Shaman King)
the part about Goku's face after he "kills" Frieza, wasn't because he felt bad about killing him, it was that he gave Frieza multiple chances to admit defeat and that he was wrong and should change his ways, just as he essentially done with Yamcha, Tien, even Krillin if you want to get technical, even Piccolo and eventually Vegeta turned good and Frieza chose to try and kill him even after all that. It wasn't that Goku felt bad about killing Frieza it was that he felt bad that there were people like Frieza, Goku's always given almost everyone second chances minus Tambourine and King Piccolo, and after all the second chances he gave Frieza, Frieza still only wanted to kill him and rule the Universe
Yeah, it must have sucked to realize that while you can always kick a bad guys ass you cant change who they are and some people are not good deep down. Its an antithesis to what goku stands bym
I'm with you on this. It's pretty clear to me the intention was that Goku was upset because here was someone who could choose to be better, like so many he'd met. Only, like King Piccolo, he chooses to be a petty evil tyrant. For anyone, having a chance at redemption thrown back in their face stings. For someone like Goku, it's an especially bitter pill to swallow.
Well that's the beauty of art and literature, that's your subtly different interpretation on a single cell in a story. there's no wrong answer, we all read the emotion but its cause is gonna hit differently for different people.
~My response when she said that was "Except for everyone that watched Abridged!" I still wish it were somehow canon, like by the time he's revived he's so weak, that he just throws in the towel and lives a more simple, but lavish life. So he's not relevant to any plots, but can be included in those rare random just for fun moments. Or, worse, just mostly forgotten like 17 and Lunch/Launch.
@@ShaimingLong 17 did get to shine in the universe tournament arc, and honestly made him one of my favorite characters, but yeah, too many good side characters get sidelined because of power creep. It's a shame
Wow the whole "everyone can go super saiyan now" is a lot like what happened in Kingdom Hearts. Sora was supposed to be the only Keyblade wielder, like there was originally only one Keyblade and Sora was the only one who could use it, and now almost every single one of his friends has one. Edit: I meant in the original game. I'm aware there were other Keyblades and wielders at the time/ before but when there was only the first game no one knew this. The series retcons itelf all the time anyway.
It's the fate of every "special power" in a series that runs long enough, unless it's some villains' powers because they only ever show up once early on and are ignored because the writers don't think to go back to them until later when they actually, y'know, need more material. ...no that's not the voice of experience, i don't know what you mean. *whistles*
It's one thing in a shounen series, especially manga, where you have one week to make an entire instalment and you need to toss whatever first draft you have to the illustrators with enough time for them to ink it. It's worse in something like a game or adapted series, where you have months or years of writing time to fine-tune the plot, and yet somehow manage to do no better.
Well King Mickey and Riku already had there own keyblades in that game. Sora story is more of a "anyone can wield the or a keyblade if thier heart is righteous and formed connections with others." Riku is actually suppose to be the only one to use it but because he only relied on his own strength for increasingly selfish means leads to him losing his right to wield that keyblade and he switches to another keyblade from ansem. So it's not really that weird or against the themes of the franchise for others to wield one, whether they be good or evil, so long as thier resolve was strong, a connection is formed or just thier own strength of heart. Also the game never really went into depth what exactly made the Kingdom Key special. Like it is but it's mostly spoken about it being important than going into the why or how its important. So KH1 more inverts the chosen one story both with the user and kind of with the special sword. It be like if King Arthur was suppose to wield Excalibur but then some peasant guy was chosen by the sword because he's shown more chivalry and heroism.
46:16 One thing that's never really discussed about DBZ is how much the series divorces itself from Dragonball after the Super Saiyan Legend is fulfilled. If you're just watching it in anticipation for the progression of strength, you probably didn't notice it, but it's all there. -All of the weird quirky bits of Dragonball......just disappear. All of the animal people are gone. There's no weird jokes. Characters don't have weird powers anymore. There's no characters being serious while doing completely silly things like Tao Pai Pai flying in on a column or the Ginyu Force's whole routine. Some of it comes back by the Buu Saga, but the series has already set in the new tone by then. -Saiyan or Get Out: Well, the new bar is Super Saiyan, so that means only Saiyans are really allowed to do much of anything. All non-Saiyan characters quickly become irrelevant, and it doesn't help that most of them were dead for an entire arc. We need a new Saiyan, so Yamcha/Bulma are broken up so Vegeta/Bulma can be set up. Goku's not going to have a kid out of wedlock, so he's gotta come from somewhere! Yamcha and Bulma had been going out since the very beginning of the series, but too bad, we NEED a new Saiyan! -The Dragonballs aren't the primary focus on the plot. Every arc outside of a tournament up to this point had focus put on the Dragonballs. Now they're just there for clean up. A big reset button. I don't even think that the Androids/Cell even know what the Dragonballs are. There was always a little bit (not much, let's not pretend otherwise) more going on just fighting. Even in the middle of fighting Freeza, there's a little time spent for a Dragon summoning gambit. Now it's down to "Are you stronger than the New Enemy? No? Okay, we've got problems". -All the mysticism, magic of the series is just gone. The Dragonballs are less of these magical devices that can do almost anything, but now just some tool you get your Namekian friends to build. And they've just got two sets to use, and they're just used as a reset device after you've finished punching the badguys in the face. Senzu Beans go from this magical legume that can heal all wounds, repair broken bodies and keep you fed for several days to "the energy refiller!" They're basically E-Tanks now. Did you bring enough E-Tanks to beat Dr. Gero's Android Masters? Senzu Beans can repair a hole in your chest, but don't be silly, they can't do anything against a virus! Only Cold Hard Science is can fix that, no magical way out here! King Kai goes from giving out advice, constantly watching over Goku and commentary, to "Eh, not my problem!" Goku might ask him a question once in a blue moon. Remember how King Kai saw fit to tell Krillin how to properly throw the Spirit Bomb? Future Trunks? You're on your own, kid. -All the pragmatism is gone. In the prior arcs, the protagonists would adapt to a situation and try and make the most of it. "Better team up with Piccolo, because there's no way I can fight this new guy by myself." "Goku is losing to Vegeta? Well, I guess we gotta go back." "We better take a Dragonball so Freeza can't make a wish" Everyone contributes to fighting against Vegeta/Freeza at the end of their arcs. Even if they don't end up doing much, everyone is at least revving up for combat. Everyone gears up to fight the Red Ribbon Army. Everyone gears up to fight Piccolo Daimou. The only reason Tien didn't use the Mafuba because the rice cooker was broken. No matter what's going on, everyone usually gets mixed in it. In the Android/Cell arc, everyone stands around while the Current Strongest Saiyan (or Namekian that one time) does all the fighting. Hell, instead of having the situation dropped on their heads and dealing with it, everyone waits three years for the Androids to appear because the Saiyans want a go at them. Furthermore, the entire plot of the Android/Cell saga is driven by the characters dropping the ball at critical moments. Vegeta may as well have picked up the script and said "It says I can't just kill you because this conflict isn't over, so go ahead and transform". I think a scene that summarizes some of these points the best is when Bulma flies up Kami's Lookout and shows up with Saiyan Battle Armor to give to everyone, and only the Saiyans wear them. You're not supposed to be able to fly up there with a plane, but who cares, there's no magic here anymore. I guess if you know where it is and want to go hang out, you can just jet on over. Piccolo and Tien don't wear them, because fuck, they're not going to do anything, their time is past. Does Tien even train while he's up there? Of course the Saiyans wear them, they're the only relevant characters here.
I can't remember where I read this, but as far as I'm aware Toriyama's original intent was to end the series on the Frieza saga. When he found he was unable to get anything else published (as in, his publishers told him "either you make more Dragon Ball or you deal with unemployment") he managed to pull out the Cell saga, which did lessen the impact of some of the themes of previous storylines, but still held it together well enough to make a strong finish with the passing of the torch to Gohan. Basically, everything since the Frieza saga has been a combination of Toriyama's bosses refusing to publish anything other than Dragon Ball, and the fans endlessly asking for more, even when the story is wrapped up with a neat bow... or so I've heard. Demonstrating the power the publishers started exerting over Toriyama, I've also read that Androids 19 and 20 were originally intended to be the Big Bads of that saga, as with 16, 17, and 18, and when the publishers told Toriyama repeatedly that those characters weren't cool enough, he finally came up with Cell. Which, if we're talking about departures from the original themes of Dragon Ball, good god! He might be a cool concept but he does NOT fit in this universe!
@@MenachemSchmuel Way I heard it, Cell Saga in itself was supposed to close the book on Goku with his decision to stay dead at the end, and (if anything) let Gohan take the stage. Nope! Executive meddling said “bring him back anyway,” and because they got away with it that time, they’ve been getting away with it _ever since_ .
I feel that Vegeta just thought with each power boost, he'd magically become a Super Saiyan if he just shouted it out loud enough. I mean, the plan sort of worked in the next arc.
DBZ is capable of handling some moments perfectly. The OG Super Saiyan transformation, Gohan going SS2 against Cell, Vegeta sacrificing himself in the Buu saga. Excellent stuff
Arph I 100% don't believe you have never heard of the name Hercule it's such a known thing my phone auto corrected the lower case h to H because it's his proper name
@@hokage9990 But that's the best part! At the end when Goku needed to power up the spirit bomb and so the entire planet Earth raised up their hands and chanted "Satan! Satan! Satan!" I just laughed my ass off. I genuinely did not know that until just now when Tyler mentioned the name.
@@Dessinger2 I think that is actually a good thing. It’s incredibly daunting to those who the content wouldn’t appeal to in the first place, meanwhile it slowly converts those willing to try into mega fans. That’s ideally the kind of long running series you want to create: a hardcore audience. It maximizes the long term readership. It’s the complete opposite strategy to Marvel comics who keeps restarting their series in order to get comic scalpers and new fair-weather fans who statistically fall off after a third issue
Super Saiyan is straight up a power cliff. Yamcha on the other hand gets power crept out of relevancy, and that started after the very arc that he was introduced in.
You forgot one of the most important details Vegeta slowly dying and reveling to everyone that Freiza blew up the sayian homeworld and genocided their species for a prophecy that may not even come true. While crying showing everyone Freiza truly broke him and if things were different maybe he could’ve been a good guy.
Goku: Oh I get it. If it weren't for Freezer, you wouldn't be... Vegeta: Dying? Goku: I was gonna say evil. Vegeta: Oh no, I'd definantly still be evil.
while its cool for Goku's character to recognize his saiyan heritage, it doesnt really do anything for the profecy or the super saiyan transformation itself. Its not like he has to be or think like a saiyan to transform.
@@ero-senninsama1734 It's not necessarily about goku though, I think it leans more toward the implication that freiza actively fears the prophecy and would rather destroy this entire race of very useful mercenaries over a shallow prophecy than risk it being true. It gives the prophecy more weight by showing the main villain has actively attempted to prevent it, implying the prophecy of hope is what doomed their race. It gives the prophecy a "stained in blood" touch, which is fun.
It's funny how the "4 saiyans left" thing was a reference to Journey but then later on was retconned to be 7 saiyans, if you include Tarble, Broly, and Paragus
If I remember correctly, the super broly movie had a scene showing vegeta, nappa, and raditz reacting to the news of their planet exploding and there were 1 or 2 other saiyans shown with them.
@@jacobhealy8376 He is in fact cannon now, during the event's of the battle of gods ark when Beerus shows up. all the saiyans need to pool their energy into Goku so he can become the saiyan god. But they need six saiyans to do this and only have five, which prompts Bulma to ask Vegeta what if they asked his brother Tarble.
One thing that I think could have been brought up is just how much Sean Schemmel's voice work adds to the "this is a different person" feeling of the transformation in the English dubs. His base Goku voice and super saiyan voice sound like two different characters. Goku straight up goes from a tenor to a baritone a soon as his hair starts glowing, and it's real uncanny the first time you hear it, like a friend you've known for years all of a sudden has been replaced with someone who only *sort of* looks and sounds like them.
i would argue this also applies to masako nozawa's performance too. she takes a noticeably more deep and almost sinister tone for his super form, which does a good job at conveying just how much goku's mental state shifted during the transformation.
Fits how Goku was feeling when that happened, too. Turning SS1 against Frieza is the only time Goku ever goes so far as to say that he will make his opponent SUFFER. Not that he won't forgive them, like the LAST time someone killed Krillin. Not even that he's going to kill him. But that he's going to make him suffer. GOKU said that.
There's a lot of subtle changes about super saiyan. Beyond the hair. Goku had open eyes. They close fully. Goku had floppy hair. It's spiked. In the Manga, goku had round text boxes like all the heroes. When he turns they become square like all the villains
Now that I think about it, Goku staying in space after Namek makes a lot of sense from his perspective - though I don't really remember the anime going into it all. Goku just awakened a side of himself that is near-uncontrollably powerful and is scary even to himself - I think Goku wouldn't want to go home to his friends and family until he knows he can control this godly powerful near-berserk state if for no other reason than he doesn't want to lose control and or accidentally hurt (or even kill) anyone; even someone who so downright necessitates being killed such as Frieza.
I understand being bummed by how Super Saiyan was handled after but I’m really surprised you didn’t touch on Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 transformation it’s had as much of a “prophecy” feel to it and little bits into it since the beginning of DBZ.
Gohan's transformation was more contrived due to his ultimate trigger being android 16's death. And their shared connection of nature and animals were suppose to convince us that Cell killing him would be the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, it was extremely hype when I initially saw it 15 years ago but rereading/re-watching the Cell saga since then has made it much more clear that--in my opinion--Goku's SSJ1 transformation was much better.
@@natenatenate10 I understand where you’re coming from and in some aspects I agree. But I’d argue that this being Gohan’s ultimate snap and the pay off for two whole prior arcs still cements it as one of the better transformations in the series. While I completely agree that Goku’s original ssj was better, I disagree with “16” being the trigger for Gohan. I’d say it’s more so the act of cell killing someone in front of him thats the real trigger. This is something the original dub really fumbled imo as it’s more so Gohan’s hate for violence that causes him to lose it. I mean Cell taunts and challenges him by sending the Cell jrs after his friends that almost causes him to go ballistic but it’s ultimately a character death that does the trick as it should. And while I understand that Gohan and 16 never even met until the start of the cell games (admittedly that’s pretty dumb) the transformation still works. It doesn’t really matter who died more so that someone DID die. Also I mean 16 was the only real option to be killed as everyone else could have been brought back by the dragon balls. Regardless, the monologue in his head that the dub does honestly kinda ruin the scene for me as it’s not present in the original Japanese dub or the manga and completely changes the perception of the moment in the eyes of the audience.
@@natenatenate10 The entire saga suffers from this sort of thing imo, its very jarring how suddenly it becomes Gohan's story when he didn't have any particularly connection to events any moreso than anybody else and certainly not to Cell in particular and it has to rely on the death of a very recently introduced side character for it to stick. The main thing it has going for it is finally seeing Gohan step up to the plate after a long time being told he has all this potential.
@@malleableconcrete fully agree and this is where, ironically, I’d argue that the anime filler actually does a better job at actually including Gohan in the arc. You don’t even see his original ssj transformation or really much of his training in the time chamber at all in the manga. As for cell and Gohan not having a connection, I can see the argument that the timid child underdog who barely even believes in himself having to stand up and defeat beyond arrogant monster works narratively ( certainly more than whatever buu was but I digress)
@@noe9982 When I say connection I mean on a personal level, Future Trunks has every reason to hate the likes of 18, 17, Black and Zamasu and that gets paid off when you see him do stuff like go back to the future and kill the androids or slice Fused Zamasu in two, Vegeta and Goku have every possible reason to want to put Frieza in the ground, considering what he's done to their entire race and their closest ones, and it all makes the climax of Goku defeating and humiliating Frieza with his own sense of generosity all the more sweet. Even in your description Cell is just kind of a smug monster for Gohan to overcome, it kind of works from that angle but the part of Cell could have been occupied by almost any other villain at that point.
i love how super saiyan became so commonly used that vegeta kind just.... forgot that it was a big deal. like, during the 6/7 tournament he tells cabbe "hey lets stop messing around and go super saiyan yeah?" just completely disregarding that it was so rare that even he wasn't sure it was real lol
I excused the Saiyan Z Fighters going Super Saiyan but I lost it when I say Cabba and the U6 Saiyans do it so easily out of nowhere. At least with Trunks and Goten you could say Super Saiyan is passed down genetically...
thats the disappointing thing about fantasy is realizing that the impossible dream world is more relative, we could be a fantasy world to a hypothetical possible reality. i didnt think zebras were real because they seemed kinda on the nose but no one cares about them really.
@@AsymmetricalCrimes with that I'd say cabba had a proper transformation. The tingling sensation was his own way of trying to explain how it felt, rather than that being the actual cause (which people think is how it works for him)The universe 6 Saiyans are also slightly different from universe 7 Saiyans their potential has to change in order to get them strong enough to transform
@@AsymmetricalCrimes ehh yea but it isn't a big deal plus the U6 saiyans are clearly quite different to the U7 saiyans, like they don't have tails and tend to be more calm and less bulky. That could explain the differences in how easy it is for them to go super saiyan, plus just having someone who is already a super saiyan help you would speed up the process, as we saw with Gohan (though it was much faster for U6 saiyans)
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.” Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear Is kind of the conclusion I draw from this video
@@lorcostridge2811there's also the 4th (maybe more like 3.5) fear of unpredictability, "The most terrifying form of man, is one that's accepted they're already dead."
All of this stuff about how Dragon Ball was originally a comedy and the importance of comedy to the original story makes me understand why the Dragon Ball Abridged series has become so compelling to so many people, to the point of being regarded almost as a fan-dub rather than a parody
It paid off to have the source material at their fingertips to thread everything together in a way that the originals couldn't while having their cake too. It's my favorite fan work.
I love how DBZ Abridged held on to the comedic roots of the series while still being evolving into something more serious over time Plus, Piccolo, Nail and Kami are an incredible comedic trio
The best part about SAO Abridged is that SWE learnt this principle super well and is applying that to a series that took itself crazy seriously, making it sooo much better for it.
Completely agree; especially with the "downgrading" part. I always felt it was a very missed opportunity to develop the internal changes and dangers of going Super. Once it is clear that there is no ONE Super Saiyan Like, the Saiyajin-Human-Hybrids do it for Sunday breakfast, and everyone is kind of bummed about that. But all that's discussed is "It requires a lot of training and preparation." It would have been much cooler if they focused more on the whole "You can do it, but it changes you and you need to be ready for all the rage and power!"
That last part would have made Vegeta too cool, because we already saw Goku become Vegeta minus the willing to kill when he was a Super Saiyan. It would be like the Great Ape form, with the context of Dragon Ball, of "Oh no, that ultra powerful form Goku could achieve that no one could stop is something Vegeta can control with no problem at all!" Vegeta does that with Super Saiyan and thus establishes how absolutely terrifying he is once again, and luckily he spent enough time on Earth that he isn't ready to immediately turn that power on everyone. It also would help if Trunks immediately displayed his backstory of going Super Saiyan after seeing Gohan dead and then his attempt at revenge on the androids so it's "Oh, Trunks was like the next generation of the prophecy."
Gohan going super saiyan 2 against Cell should have been the standard personality of the super saiyan form. just like with Goku against Freeza, Gohan enjoyed breaking Cell down, depowering him both figuratively and very literally. the form of super saiyan increasing your physical state but also your mental state to a dangerous degree would have been enough of a draw back that you could understand the characters being reluctant to go into that form and even goku still using kao ken from time to time.
The funny thing about the currency inflation of Super Saiyans is that even Vegeta notices and gripes about it -- when he finds out that Trunks and Goten both have it, he gripes that it's like there was a "Super Saiyan bargain sale."
The most telling thing to add on the tonal shift was when he tells Gohan essentially, "leave this area right now before I lose all sense of reason/go in to a blind rage," kind of akin to when Goku transformed in to a giant monkey back then. This time being more like when the Wolfman begins to transform and is telling his loved ones to run away. Also part and parcel the reason the "5 minutes" was as long as it was is because back then Toriyama was still working on the manga and Toei was like,"Sheit!! Stall for time! Stall for time!!"
I don't think goku cared about losing himself or gohan safety...he just wanted to proved himself and fight freeza one on one to the end for his people..he wanted to humiliate him and show him mercy prove he was wrong about saiyans and prove why he was the fated chosen one son of his people and rewarded the ssj transformation ...he was also ok losing...he wanted gohan to leave to continue the fight on earth just in case he loses and freeza attacks earth....
There was one other thing Frieza did that I thought pretty important: right after he killed Krillin, he said "now for the boy" or something like that. This was important to me because until Trunks and Goten showed up, I felt like there was a bit of a pattern to the transformations. Just about every time it happened, there was an element of desperation to it. I was it as less a matter of rage than of need. A need so overwhelmingly powerful that everything else disappears and all that's left is having enough power to do what must be done. For Goku, sure avenging Krillin might be able to do this, but stopping his son's murder (even with the way he sees his kids) seems like it at least played a part in pushing him over that edge. And then Trunks and Goten did it just by copying the big kids, and Cabba was able to teach Kale and Caulifla to just focus on a spot on their backs. Seriously, I had no problem with crazy badass Saiyan women, but nerfing the transformation to that level was just wrong.
The U6 Saiyans were supposed to be smart. How much better would it have been if theyd achieved the transformation using technology rather than nerfing it?
@@Damianweibler Like using some machine like the Blutz wave from GT? that would have been awesome, like a stronger, but much more limited super saiyan as a throwback to SS4 to contrast the godly powers of Blue.
@@Damianweibler Now that might've been interesting. But then the bar is low; there's not much that'd feel dumber than "just focus your energy on your back".
@@MB-hc9we Yeah, I think that line to Gohan was what led to me taking that theory. And it does fit for most of them. In most cases more than rage the core seemed to be desperation. Gohan didn't even have anything to be mad about when he achieved it.
"We're gonna pretend like pop culture osmosis has not taught every single one of us what a super saiyan is" No worries here super saiyan has never managed to bypass the rock I've lived under for 90% of my life
45:25 During the buildup to the Buu saga when young Trunks transforms in the gravity chamber, Vegeta has a great one-liner about how the Super Saiyan transformation gets downgraded to just the thing you do to be relevant, IIRC the exact like is "What is this, a bargain basement Super Saiyan sale?"
From the way Frieza was written, it seemed like Frieza was meant to be the final boss of the series and because it didn't end, villains had to be power crept like crazy and makes Frieza weaker by comparison.
Some people do believe that the Namek Saga was supposed to be the series finale. Whether it was or not has been a matter of debate, but yeah, writing by the seat of your pants does have some flaws. That said, I do like some of the post Namek stuff, like Dr Gero (especially with FighterZ and Kakarot adding backstory) and Beerus.
@@johnnygyro2295 Cell I could understand being stronger than Frieza given he has cells from everyone. But I could never understand where 17 and 18 gained infinite stamina and energy, and why Gero didn't just give it to himself or any of the other Androi-Cyborgs, Cyborgs.
If I remember correctly, Toriyama wanted to end the series at the end of the cell games, leaving Goku dead and Gohan as the protector of earth (being that it was the only time he was canonically the most powerful of the whole cast). But there was something that made it so he had to continue. I don't have a source for it. I just feel like I remember hearing this back in the day on youtube discussion about DBZ EDIT: upon doing some research it seems like the only CONFIRMED time that Toriyama wanted to end the series was after the first original Dragon Ball arc. While he did say there were multiple points in the series he wanted to end the run but he couldn't due to the manga's skyrocketing popularity, but there are no confirmations of specific arcs or times when wanted to stop besides the initial arc.
@@JamiTake2 thank you for factchecking, this one goes around a lot even a version where people say fans bullied toriyama into making the series continue, its all crock
Funny little side note to give to Blue: The Spirit Bomb almost never works, exception being Kid Buu. It's supposed to be this amazing skill fueled by the energy of countless living beings, but as far as reliability goes, it kinda stinks XD
When you tell your enemy you are going to incinerate them with a glowing ball of pure energy that takes prayer and teamwork and standing still yelling for half an hour... Is there anyone who would be like "man, you and I are having such a good conversation, I really couldn't leave now...or step to the side by a single block"...
It's like the ultimate in unconventional Chekov's gun, because it keeps not working, right up until the final boss of Z, finally giving a payoff for King Kai teaching Goku it at all beyond injuring Vegeta that one time.
I love how much Super Saiyan is the epitome of Toriyama's most frequent and prominent advice in storytelling: Less is more. He just stuck his hair up and made him blonde, and this is the most iconic transformation in the entire franchise, to the point that 2 out of the 3 series' climactic finales ended with him in this form
@@jacks1368 Hey, don't go slandering this man like that, he did it so his assistants wouldn't have to color in Goku's hair. He was lazy, but that ain't an example
What I liked about the super saiyan transformation is accomplished at first was it wasn't just about grief and rage, but desperation also. It wasn't just that Krillin died. It's that Goku has already given it his all to Frieza and isn't even close to stopping him, and Frieza is now killing his family and friends, and Goku knows he can't stop it, but he desperately wants to. For Trunks, it's because he desperately wants to stop the androids, but he knows he can't. Vegeta, he's desperate to catch up to Goku and Trunks. If it's only grief and rage, wouldn't you think Goku or Gohan could transformed earlier? Krillin died from Tamborine before, but nothing told Goku he couldn't stop Tamborine, so that desperation wasn't there. Gohan would rage boost all the time, but he would stall for Goku to clean up the mess, where Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks didn't have someone else to deal with their problems for them.
That same principle could be applied to Gohan as well. His first awakening - the one in the Time Chamber - happened because he was, to put it simply, desparate to get strong enough to protect himself and others. I mean, he literally asked Goku to basically try to kill him to get him to transform, so if that's not desperation, I don't know what is.
The reason why a Saiyan hadn't transformed in thousands of years is because truw hatred and rage has to be born from love. If you lack meaningful connections to people you can't experience the powerful emotions from loss. Bardock was weird for having a wife and loving his children, which is why he was able to transform first. Goku, living on earth, found those connections. The half Saiyans with their human DNA and upbringing were more inclined to those feelings from the rip
This is incredibly valid. It sort of reminds me of Super Man who also feels like he can’t count on others to fight his battles. There is no one else, it’s just him.
Random thing: it’s always bugged me that training vs talent is a main staple of dragon ball, but no amount of training ever overcame “being a Saiyan” for the humans to reach the point of being relevant to the plot. I know everyone harps on this in some form or another but o wanted to mention it for themings sake
I know! It's absurdly annoying, especially since the best version of this concept is the xenoverse games. But even then, it's heavily assumed that you're gonna play as a Saiyan. I was playing as a majin and the npc interactions are super cool, and I wish that there was more of these types of things. "Buu was strong, but he was lazy and ate all day. You come from the same place, but train regularly. You might be my finest pupil yet." I wanna see Krillin or Tein be the absolute Chads we all know they can be.
The Saiyan is a race of talented warriors to begin with, and then they all train, so it's that they're already talented and then put training on top of that
most fucked up thing; giving the race of angry monkeys the zen state that let them reach nirvana for a minute (action without thought). ultra instinct should have been a krillin thing instead of a marketing thing.
@@PEARLSTOTHEPLAYERS he also made a thematic prequel to ultra instinct in his no ego transformation. there is just no genuine justification for UI going to goku instead.
Vegeta's motivated about the destruction of his home planet, "not because he liked the other Saiyans, it's more the Prince-iple of the thing." I see what you did there
I love reds depiction of the transformation, because at that point we have seen freezer transform and other than a "this form can handle my power" mentally freezer is the same, when Goku's transforms he changes not only physically but mentally, and he isn't sure that he can control not the power but the anger needed to stay in that form. Its a shame that later SS Just becomes like a change of clothes but man its well implemented in that arc
I would of liked a side effect of going ssj to be it makes you lose yourself so for goku he becomes enraged blinded by it losing his purity and as shown for gohan he becomes saddistic at ssj and more sadistic at ssj 2 which explains why goku kills freeza and gohan toys with cell....at least until the end of cell games aka before the boo saga where it became a joke anyways so they can get rid of that side effect by and say they moved past those weaknesses off screen...that would of been cool ...for vegeta he becomes more cocky and egocentric and for the kids they are out of control maybe with their attacks powers and dangerous for others around them and each other making them easy to beat in battle pre fusion
This makes me feel super old. I remember when all my school friends were super hyped to see the super saiyan arrive but the dubbed episodes ended at the arrival of the Ginyu Force. When we finally got internet at home I ordered VHS fansubs of the episodes that werent available in the US yet. I told everyone at school what happened next in the story and they thought I was making it all up. Good times.
Hah I can top all of you!... my friends where all Asian and one would get the comics and episodes sent to him on video from family in Japan a few weeks after it aired or got published, and he spoke and read Japaness perfectly and as such would translate it to me and the other guys in the group. So being a white European guy I got to read and watch Dragon Ball (and im talking about even the ones where Goku was a kid) right up to the end of the Cell saga in 'real time' and without all the crap American dub changes and edits. Lets just say when the first dubs arrived on TV from America years latter i was NOT happy...
That first slide comparing the charactersto the one's from Journey to the West says "no horse tho" meaning you clearly forgot about Puar, the shapeshifting cat that never does anything. You know, like the shapeshifting dragon that normally makes itself look like a horse that never does anything.
@@Mothman1992 At this point it's.... no wait, Goku's still dead at this point so we're still at 5.5 with the other team that picked up where TFS left off. Veggie Broly Paragus Turles Trunks Gohan Goten
Small note: Vegeta kept talking about the "legendary" super saiyan that only once every thousand or so years appears. When Goku transformed it was implied that he was exactly that and Vegeta believed that too but once he achieved the same transformation it became clear that the myth was over exaggerated since now there are two at the same time .... until Broly gets his canon introduction as the real legendary super saiyan
Broly in DBS canon is NOT the legendary ss They do not refer to him as such nor are his transformations called that His form with green hair in the movie is known as : Super Saiyan full power
@@edwardmyers9492 and harkens more back to the oozaru transformation being hones internally without transforming into a monkey. As of now; theres still no named character canon legendary super saiyan.
@@edwardmyers9492 Except that Caulifa as what we know is really Legendary Super Saiyan is directly called out by Goku and Vegeta to be what the original legend was referring to. Doesn't matter what the new marketing tells us, we all know what that form is really called. Especially because we already have a full power Super Saiyan, it's what Goku and Gohan achieved for the Cell Games.
@@justinalicea1590 Broly's form in dbs is called super saiyan : full power not full power super saiyan(or ss grade 4) that is a completely different thing Goku and vegeta never refers to kale as "legendary super saiyan" all they say is that the true form of super saiyan Whatever the "new marketing" calls it that is what it is Idk why this concept is so hard to grasp
Something worth noting is that when Goku goes Super Saiyan, his normally round and open eyes become closed and harsh like Vegeta's. Also in the manga characters who are "evil" speak with angular speech bubbles rather than round ones. Super Saiyan Goku has angular speech bubbles, further conflating the idea that something's not right with Goku. The anime achieves this effect by having Nozawa or Schemmel speaking in a more intense voice during the duration of the form.
Arguably, this is exactly what made Dragon Ball Z a cultural phenomenon. Children's media really didn't have that kind of foreshadowing and character development beforehand. It's kind of insane how much children's media globally owes to the Namek/Frieza sagas.
Besides the 4 years of Batman The Animated Series and the 2 years of Spider-Man The Animated Series that happened before DBZ got localised for the west.
No it's solely just because of the fighting was really good unlike anyting in Western animation Dragon Balls the worst example when it comes to story and characters. Also due to the fact that since it was finished airing in Japan by the time it came to America they could show new episode daily so the viewers wouldn't be annoyed by the pacing.
@@sebastienvondoom8615 There wasn't a lot of continuity between episodes in Batman and SpiderMan animated series. There was a mild sense of it with some things, but that was generally limited to two part stories. I suspect it's cuz they had a hard time convincing the bosses that kids can handle complex narratives and character building instead of having everything start over at the beginning of every episode. Even Toonami really struggled to actually show DBZ in order - they kept skipping around in the series. It wasn't until I was old enough to actually go out and buy the manga and DvDs that I was able to fully put the entire thing together in order in my head. I remember at least twice when we got up to the final episode in the Cell Saga and they would cut and go to the beginning of the Namek Saga - it was so frustrating!
I think at the point it became a joke was at the buu saga. Before that at least everyone had a moment of pain/rage that boosted them into it, be it trunks finding Gohan's dead body and breaking down or Vegeta punching the ground with all his rage and frustration. Gohan's was a little less impactful but then he actually let all his rage out when 16 died and went full ballistic on cell and his kids. Then Goten and Kid Trunks just casually super saiyan cause why not, then Gohan's unique Wrathful SSJ is just something both Goku and Vegeta can do to and then Goku goes ssj3, which while badass is just dumb.
True. But I think all that dumb evolutions made the end of the Buu arc more... satisfying to me? Stripped of all the effectiveness and energy for all of those new forms, in the end, Goku beats Buu in both base form and SSJ form with a Genki Dama (the ability he's had since his first fight with Geets) made with everyone's energy on Earth, and Buu is blown away. I dunno, being forced to fight such a powerful enemy with such "primitive" forms and abilities at this point feels like catching a legendary Pokémon with a normal Pokéball, or Yami Yugi beating an enemy with Kuriboh. There's just something charming about a circle ending to me, I guess?
Personally, I feel it's safe to say the Super Saiyan transformation is a form with a prerequisite that most Saiyans naturally meet by the time DBZ ended. In the case of Trunks and Goten, both of them had fathers who had the potential by the time each of them was born (or had already attained). The Universe 6 Saiyans also possessing the level of power necessary to awaken the transformation on its own is also significant. It avoids the idea that the Super Saiyan transformation is a special, Chosen One-Esque power only possessed of certain bloodlines by indicating that any Saiyan able to reach the prerequisite level of power is able to attain it. This is also considering the Legendary Super Saiyan forms used by Kale, Kefla, and Broly. By the time they show up in the Super timeline, while Broly's power did allow him to completely overwhelm most opponents, Goku and Vegeta specifically have developed to a point where they possess techniques that can allow them to match and surpass the Legendary forms.
The worst part is that you could make the whole buu saga work seamlessly by striping every super saiyan of one level. Think about it : the plot revolves about Babidi looking for a powerful warrior to resurrect Buu, and Kaioshin looking for a way to prevent that. Then, for the second half of the arc, you need Gohan to use the super duper strong power up only he can use to make a difference. Now hear me out, but what if instead of having Goku and Vegeta be able to go ssj2 like it's nothing they just... trained and became stronger as ssj1. Not as strong as a super saiyan 2, but they still are stronger than anything else in the universe at that point. The story works like usual, Buu revives and defeats Vegeta, Gohan is missing and is unable to go ssj2 because of his lack of training, but surprise, Goku is able to do it! Using the power of ssj2, he handles Buu for a while and his time on earth is still cut short like ssj3 did in the original. Then you have Gotenks, who still is comically strong compared to how he should be at his age, but he's still weaker than Buu and without the fusion the kids aren't enough to win. That's when Gohan comes back on earth, shining with the sparkling glow of the power only he could handle, the level above and beyond the legendary super saiyan. This would have made the story just as engaging with virtually no difference to the plot, and it would have avoided the ridiculousness of ssj3 and mystic Gohan.
As a lifetime fan of DB up until Super, even with the characters I do like from that series, yeah basically being a fan of this stuff is an exercise in masochism for people that like things to make sense.
Like ok how the heck did Dr Gero make cyborgs stronger than Frieza when he had no data on him, and even the Future Androids from timeline 2 were supposedly weaker... doesn't heckin TRACK.
When I saw that this was a 1-hour long video of DBZ, I really didn't want to watch it. But when I started hearing the commentary, I genuinely enjoyed their charismatic voices, and just the way she explained the plot like a friend who watches too much anime, just having fun explaining their favorite show to another human being who will listen. This was very entertaining. Congrats.
27:37 It's worth noting that in the Japanese version, Kaio has the same voice actor as the narrator, and has more of a wise grandfatherly vibe to him, compared to Sean Schemmel in the dub doing his best to sound as cartoonishly obnoxious as possible.
I love how there are people that can actually see the well written moments in dragon ball. People today just take it for granted and downgrades everything that happens in dbz because its iconic and popular
I think rather than it being iconic and popular, the reason it is thought less is because DBZ cheapens EVERY LAST GOOD BIT OF WRITING they do with trivializing and repeating character arcs over and over.
@@guillermorelobalopez7553 What got me was selling Gohan as the successor... and then immediately throwing that all under the bus because people liked Goku too much. I mean, on the one hand I get it because Gohan didn't come off "as driven" as Goku was to fight and push his limits... ... but come on, that was a good moment. And now I have to see more and more realizing that arc just wasn't as much fun as it could have been with the payoff removed.
@@Skölly-b6h Yes. That's what happens when you don't develop a character. They're not interesting. ... so much I like and hate about DBZ is in how it wound up being central to a couple characters and anyone else? Pfft, get them out of here they're not the Saiyans, er, main characters.
Unless you're Goten and this-timeline Trunks, the initial transformation seems to require what even Goku himself called "the pain of loss". Goku loses Krillin, Future Trunks loses Gohan, this-timeline Gohan loses his innocence, because he knows that, if he can't defend himself, it'll be his fault when/if everyone dies defending him, and for Vegeta...the whole thing with the meteor shower, I think he lost the sense of who he really was, which was a guy who had to be perfect at all costs and at all times. When he realized that he WASN'T that, and COULDN'T be that, he lost an integral part of what he thought made him who he was, so bam, snap. Am I missing anyone?
I appreciate you were aware of how little of importance Android 16 actually meant to Gohan that Gohan losing is innocence is so much more of a powerful considering all the shit that Gohan had to deal with despite being a kid.
For what it's worth, Vegeta's transformation is technically filler. In the manga it's never explained how or when he learned how. The first time we see it is when he just does it facing 19.
And then you have Dragon Ball Super and the ability to unlock Super Saiyan literally becomes "tickle this part of your back with energy until your hair changes." I'm paraphrasing, but it really does get THAT simplified when they try to teach it to a tribe of Saiyans from another Universe.
@@zerobudgetgamer nah, you’re not paraphrasing. Your actually adding the “with energy” bit. The training of the alt-universe Saiyan training is such an anticlimax version of super saiyan.
I feel you, Blue. Sporadically watching DBZ not only didn't prepare me for the constant whiplash incurred from watching the King Piccolo arc in the original series, it made some bits MORE whiplash-y as the exact opposite thing I expected to happen would end up happening, which my best friend found very funny. "How did you not know Piccolo and Piccolo Junior are different people?!" "Well, no one calls him Piccolo Junior, do they?! They call him Piccolo!"
It's intriguing since Akira Toriyama has gone on record that he writes by the seat of his pants yet managed to make a good payoff to Vegeta's posturing about being the legendary warrior. I feel like there's a Trope Talk in this style of writing, the ups and downs.
Especially considering how ubiquitous it is in Shounen.
That's a really intriguing topic. I remember one author giving advice about how to work through writers block, commenting that "the unwritten page has a basilisks stare." But he broke it down really systematically. Go with three arc storyline, inciting incident, rising action, climax and so forth. Go for 5000 word chapters. If, in this chapter, you plan to get the character from point A to point B, create a rough outline. All of it seems very restrictive and uncreative, but it's sometimes liberating to have a set of rules to then bend or break.
But yeah, counter that with Toriyama's (and as Jordan pointed out, most shounen authors) necessary strategy of "I only have seven days to produce a new chapter. I've been on this weekly grind for the last ten years and honestly? We're going with first draft ideas at this point." Very different writing strategies.
In cases where it's the author's choice and they have all the time they need, the benefit of writing like this is that you can concentrate on making strong characters since you don't need to have a plan for the plot to develop your characters. You also get to have more natural progression of plot events and character responses to them, since you are somewhat letting the characters drive. Naturally, the weakness is that if you realise you need a certain event or outcome you often have to force it inelegantly, and you have a much harder time creating grand or sweeping plots. You also have to spend all the time you theoretically saved on outlining on extra drafting, since you often have to tune or even rewrite early chapters based on later ones, since you had no idea what they were going to be.
And, yeah, this doesn't apply to most Shounen writers, or people writing for weeklies in general. There you get barely enough time to first draft a script and throw it at the ink team, so you get all of the downsides without any upside.
At the end of the day, I think Toriyama got lucky with how good the Saiyan and Freeza arcs were. Writing by the seat of your pants is really risky because things can so easily go off the rails, become unsatisfying or become illogical.
Like credit where credit is due, it requires great skill to write/draw fast and make sure everything lines up, which Toriyama did achieve with this arc, but other DB arcs, particular the Buu arc, really highlight the weakness of writing without a plan. And while the the Saiyan and Freeza arcs happened to be great, who is to say they wouldn't have been just as good if not greater if Toriyama had the time to plan them out?
I really feel like nothing is gained by writing by the seat of our pants that couldn't be accomplished better when planning things out Well, nothing except meeting strict publishing deadlines which I am sure Toriyama must have been under. But at best writing fast results in happy coincidences, not meticulous and deliberately great stories. And I think the success rate is clear as to whether improving stories or planning them out is better. So few great tv shows, books, movies etc were created without a plan while the vast majority always had a general plan.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi I know you aren’t trying to take anything away from it but I don’t think it’s quite fair to attribute it entirely on luck, Dragon Ball was already a hit in Japan at that point and still took over western audiences even with the atrocious anime dub. There is some luck in basically everything but it takes skill work under the pressure he was under and still come up with the goods. Cell and Buu went down hill but I don’t think that quite proves he was lucky, Freeza really feels like that natural end of Goku’s story and you have to wonder if he would have continued without the pressure to do so. And really Cell still had enough high points most people still have fond memories of it even with some of the weaker writing. Basically I think the Sayain and Namek arcs were more than luck, have enough that carried between the two that he had some idea where he was headed (even if it seems Super Sayain may have originally been a joke) and I think producing what he did, the way he did still takes a lot of expertise in his craft. Could it have been better given more time to plan? Possibly, but we’ll never know for sure and it wasn’t really an option for him at that point.
The "pure heart awakened by fury" is basically "a good man gone to war" trope which sounds like an excellent topic for a trope talk.
"Demons Run, when a good man goes to war."
Night will fall and drown the sun, when a good man goes to war.
@@Mr_G. Exactly! The 11th Doctor is a bad ass and personally, my favorite Dr.
Alvin York
Well what is cool to me is that EACH of them get it by letting their struggles go. GOKU gets angry. Vegeta lets go and doesn't care anymore. Gohan lets it all go and stops holding it in. I think that itself is an important message. We ALL want to get over that hump that we know is stopping us from reaching our true potential inside ourselves.
I am disappointed. I wanted a whole hour of Red talking about DBZ. Now we will forever be 4 seconds short.
Just click over to the 4 seconds where she touches on this in the Superpowered Evil Side episode of Trope Talks.
4 is the death number in Chinese. That mean bad luck. Coincidence? I think not.
This is DBZ. Four seconds is a while.
at least we'll have 4 more episodes then
It's longer if you pause to read the slides! :D
Regarding "Everyone is Super Saiyan Now"; I'm reminded of the 4-minute mile. It was long supposed to be impossible. However, once Roger Bannister showed it could be done, it became a realist target for top middle-distance runners.
Yep, this is Dragon Ball in a nutshell. Once some breaks a limit, then that limit becomes a common feat. It makes a lot of sense. But it does become ridiculous with how many more transformations there are. I only just finished the Cell saga and Dragon Ball is starting to lose its tactical fighting.
@@thomasffrench3639 yeah power creep in dragon ball is a very famous issue, I do think it starts to get addressed ish? In super
@@josephineparsons78 Not really? Beerus made a big deal of super saiyan god but by the end everybody and their mother could fight at super saiyan god level, which i find ridiculous bit well that dragon ball for you.
@@thomasffrench3639 Tactical fighting does come back a little bit in DBS, but it’s not super focal.
However, DBS: Super Hero is a decent example of tactical fighting coming back. It’s not amazing or anything, but each character in the movie is obviously working towards a goal and not just rushing headstrong into the fight, but instead thinking about what role they need to fill for the team. I won’t spoil anything more about it, I just think you’d enjoy it if you want more tactical-ish fighting.
@@thomasffrench3639 The tactical fighting comes back a bit in Super, especially during the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 Tournament Arc, and really any other episodes involving the Time-Skipping assassin Hit. Roshi's Tournament of Power fights were also great examples of tactical fighting in a fantasy world.
Its just funny how Red narrates things feels like how the series went down in DBZ abridged instead of the actual original anime cut
There would be a lot more Nappa though
At this point abridged is more ingrained in my memory than the og
@Casey Hall Hilariously derailing one-liner
@Casey Hall Oh shoot. I didn't realize you forgot one, I just felt like saying "hilariously derailing one-liner"
@@Pokemonleafmon I am hilarious and you will quote everything I say
44:18 i'm not sure i'd call that look one of "immediate regret". i always saw it as more of a disappointment/sadness. i don't think he regrets killing frieza, but he certainly didn't want to. it seemed more of a melancholically contemplative look, where he's thinking about his whole policy of mercy and second chances. like, maybe some guys are just so evil that second chances aren't even useful for them, and that probably clashes with goku's whole viewpoint on people and their capacity for change
It's a look of "Why did you make me do this?"
And this even pays off in the Cell saga with the death of Cell, but also in Gohan's attempts at getting 18 back.
I always took it as a look of regret, but at the fact that Frieza would not change when the others he had shown mercy did. Almost all of Goku's friends had tried to kill him at one time, and this was a time he went above and beyond to offer the same chance but Frieza wouldn't take it.
I think it was really a look of well damn. Now I can't fight him again later.
@@Bandit_King_YT I don't really see what paid off in the Cell saga that has something to do about this topic, actually...and Gohan never attempted to get 18 back. He didn't f**king care about 18 until she officially became Krillin's wife, basically. It was purely coincidental that he made Cell puking her out of him, as absolutely nobody, including Cell himself, expected this to happen the way it did. It seemed totally impossible to free 17 or 18 from Cell once he got them inside him. It merely happened like an accident. No one barely imagined it physically conceivable, in fact ! Pretty much like Dr. Brief with the muffin button in DBZA actually...¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯
52:36 That's 100% true. The super saiyan isn't like something told by an Oracle but a power of the ancient past Saiyans lost *because* they became ruthless.
@Brandon Quist well even before that it was established with the pure heart thing got modern Saiyans were too evil to go super.
@@MakeVarahHappen Established, and then invalidated very soon after when Vegeta became one. Which makes sense, because the "pure heart" thing has never made any sense. Goku's not even supposed to understand what a Super Saiyan is in that moment, but he suddenly starts talking like he does as if he actually has become some kind of messianic figure. It's a cool moment, but loses all logic the more you think about it.
@@damkylan3 I think you're perceiving Goku's comment about needing a pure heart as being too literal and attempt to invalidate it. Like the amount of hardship and brutality a Saiyan is almost universally proportional to how easy it is for them to go Super Saiyan. This is pretty well articulated in the plot. Goten in trunks have never seen combat a day in their life so it's mad easy for them to go Super Saiyan meanwhile Future Trunks has lived in apocalyptic wasteland forever and can only have it be ignited by his only mentor dying. Trauma actively stunts growth so ruthless sayings will never achieve it. It fits with what Goku was saying about him being special.
That's DBS U6 version...and it sucks. It sucks and it stinks hot puking shit garbage 🤢🤮💩
@@798jeremy as you can see in previous comments I made that specific element isn't just a universe 6 thing. You can just look at the original manga and come to that conclusion. Well, maybe not the Future Trunks bit because in the manga he can already go Super Saiyan before the story starts IIRC.
"People don't wish for immortality cause that would be game breaking."
I can hear Garlic Jr. screaming bullshit in the Dead Zone from here.
I mean... him being in the Dead Zone is his own fault. The ONE thing that would be worse for him than for anyone else. NOTHING else they knew of at the time would have finished him.
Canon: Garlic who?
@@GZilla311 Throw him into space or into the sun XD
Edit: Oh, Mafuba!
@@treasuremage7546 just the bad guy from the filler that was better than much of the canon 😉
sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of Kars' thoughts stopping
On the "there are usually only a small plot specific number of Senzu beans around"
When they were first established in Dragonball, there were literally several medium sized pots full of them, easily a couple thousand beans all together
One of Goku's friends (Yajirobe) didn't listen when he was told that a single bean serves as 10 days worth of food, and ate several handfuls
After he hilariously expanded from eating like a years worth of food all at once, Yajirobe, just a few hours later, was hungry again
It's never explicitly stated, but Yajirobe is the reason there are only like 12 beans at any given time, he eats all the others (as from that moment forward he lives on the tower where Korin, the cat who grows the beans, lives)
He was the only one back in the day who could rival Goku's appetite.
Good ol' Bean Daddy
I didn't know that. I just thought it took a long time to grow them and they only grew a small amount at a time.
“Do you know what an all-Senzu diet does to a man?”
“What?!”
“Korin likes it.”
@@pwnorbepwned Huh... now that line makes sense to me with this explanation.
"Most people don't remember Nappa, he's not that important."
Lies, Nappa was the most fleshed out and fully realized character in all of Dragon Ball. He had a degree in child psychology with a minor in pain, had an interest in entomology and insect reproduction habits, enjoyed playing Pokemon, and after the events of the Namek Saga went on to become a successful movie producer.
i may have watched too much DBZA
Shut up Nail.
There is no such thing as "watched too much DBZA".
You forgot his modeling career, forever ruined by krilin
I only say MUSTACHE!!!!!
Overly Sarcastic Productions should do a video about DBZ parody
Red talking about Vegeta: "He develops a bit of a complex about this."
That's an understatement right there XD
Oh ya think? I'd call it more of a "decades spanning obsession"
Honestly, the best part is when this culminates in the buu saga with him realizing that Goten and Trunks can go SS and being all like "this mythological, superpower legend is now a child's plaything" and having a bit of a midlife crisis about it.
HOW MANY PUSH UPS DID HE DO? HOW MANY SIT UPS? WHAT KIND OF JUICE DID HE DRINK?!?!
Goku. Button.
I WANNA BE A SUPER SAIYAN, I WANNA, I WANNAIWANNAIWANNA
The thing to understand about Toriyama is that he's a born serial author. He doesn't plan ahead, but what he's very very good at is throwing a whole lot of details out and then picking and choosing which ones he wants to bring together to make the next chapter satisfying. He's dancing, not marching. The android and cell arcs are really interesting to examine for this very reason because when you know what was going on in the background (Toriyama getting playfully bullied by his editors to keep changing villains), you see that there was just no rhyme or reason to that whole set of arcs, and yet what do we get? It starts with the ghosts of Goku's past, things that can at least be loosely attributed to his deeds coming back to haunt the world, fatherhood and passing generations as a theme with Trunks, Gohan (compare and contrast), and all of Dr. Gero's creations (basically brainwashed to carry on his grudges). And so Cell is this melting pot of all the previous generation's abilities, and he wants to get stronger just like them. He's a monster made out of everything that they are, so they can't beat him and Goku becomes cognizant of this leading into Gohan, who doesn't want to fight at all, having to be The One True Foil to Cell. Solid indicator for all of this being intentional too is that Goku stops doing the hurt-yourself training, and basically just says it's self destructive. He knows the old tricks aren't going to work because Cell has them all.
All with basically zero planning. Toriyama just throws a ton of stuff at the wall and assembles the pieces he likes chapter by chapter, and it all works out because he has a good instinct for theming.
As an aside, I like the fact that Goku doesn't get that Gohan doesn't like fighting because it shows that Goku was really pitching over the horizon. He knew Gohan was the one to do it, sensed a sleeping power, understood that there was something different there, but he didn't know what made Gohan different or why.
Or Goku is just a selfish idiot.
This is... Really well thought out. Wait, then what was up with the Buu arc? I always here that was completely nonsensical and all over the place. Was it just Toriyama at his worst, or is there something of which I am unaware.
@@hellocentral5551 Actually Cell Arc was supposed to lead into Gohan being the main character for the rest of the manga and Goku was supposed to remain dead, but then editors reactions and fan reception towards Gohan as MC was less then stellar since many people still liked Goku and wanted him to be MC, so Toriyama was forced to change back to Goku as MC and scrap Gohan whole thematics of passing on the torch and stuff which retroactively made the Cell Saga kind lose its punch and made it become sorta pointless in my opinion. Meanwhile the powerscaling of DBZ had gotten uncontrollable and turned into exponential powercreep, since Cell was so absuredly powerful and DBZ at that point had turned from technique vs talent into just raw strength vs raw strength because that was what worked for the Cell saga and what audiences reportedly liked, so that forced Toriyama to stretch the scale of the story to just bloated proportions and so he created Buu and the Supreme Kai and this culminated into just a mediocre plotline that wasn't necessarily bad but had just twisted into itself and became winding and not very fun tbh.
@@dyppityjoop5912 Toriyama wasn't forced to drop Gohan and bring Goku back. That's just a dumb myth. He's been quoted saying, "I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." ... "Drawing Gohan’s daily life made me gradually realize he likes studying more than fighting." Toriyama, on his own, realized that Gohan would hate being the main character of a fighting series, that following Gohan's battles wouldn't be fun because Gohan doesn't have the personality to keep the story fun, not when it comes to serious fights.
@@hellocentral5551Toriyama seems to work best with an editor over his shoulder. Towards the end of the Android/Cell Saga Toriyama got a new editor that was more hands off than the previous 2 he had. This means that the Buu Saga is the one were he had the most free reign out of Z's stories. As expected from someone who originally started out as a gag artist/writer and famously writes by the seat of his pants, the arc with minimal editorial interference got a lighter tone and tended to jump from idea to idea.
That isn't to say it's all bad, though. The Buu arc still manages to pull off iconic moments and memorable fights. But the overall plot is probably the weakest of all of Z's arcs due to Toriyama just kinda changing focus on a whim. Like wanting Gohan to be the protagonist, to changing back to Goku, but then still bringing Gohan in as the focus during Super Buu for some reason, only to change back to Goku and Vegeta for the finale.
One small extra info on the giant monkey thing:
So you how everyone keeps it a secret from Goku since he killed his granpa...
The first time Goku realized that he turns into giant mokey at fullmoon is actually when Vegeta transform during the Saiyan saga, and his first thought is... "I'm sorry, granpa. If I die, I will go apologize."
Which is very nice and heartwarming, and such a shame that most western watchers wouldn't get it at first.
*Dub* Goku: "I see, you killed my grandfather!"
@@Bezaliel13 Wait, really?!
I only read the manga, so I wouldn't know.
But Goku meats Gohan's ghost during the King Picolo saga iirc
@@jawwer00 Nah, he met him way before that (like before Tien, even), and Goku didn't know yet.
IIRC, Gohan did ask about it from the others and opted to keep it a secret from Goku as well when he knew the moon was gone thanks to Roshi (yup, the moon got blown up twice in this show...).
@@rockybirdy1529 shit, you're right.
I'm dumb
The way you've captured how strange the beginning of DBZ was without the context of DB was spot on, I remember watching it as a child without DB & just wondering what the hell is happening the entire time, but having fun regardless.
Agreed, it was so weird as a kid since DB felt like a prequel that was added on. Not sure the actual time table, but I remember watching the announcement for DB as a kid after we were like into the androids arc or farther
Yeah I didn't know the plot until I rewatched it in college haha. Fun to watch them fight tho
I thought I missed some episodes 😂
"Wait, what's going on here? I am so confused!"
*Cool martial arts and superpowers*
"Wait, what was I thinking? Couldn't have been important. Oooh shiny lasers!"
to me is interesting seeing in the comments how many people had this experience, it may be because i'm on the younger side (20) but in latinamerica they transmited dubbed versions of both DB and DBZ so i was already familiar with the characters and the overall story, i vividly remember watching DB every day on a national chanel called etceteraTV as a young child
The best thing about the whole "Training vs Talent" concept is that Vegeta comments on it on at least two occasions.
Once after, Captain Ginyu steals Goku's body in Dragon Ball Z. And again in Dragon Ball Super when fighting Goku Black.
Both times it is essentially the exact same message of Vegeta bragging that Goku's greatest strength isn't his actual strength, but his drive and strength of character.
It actually reminds me of Superman's "World of Cardboard" speech. Superman starts off by commenting on Batman's tenacity by saying, "That man won't quit so long as he draws breath."
Yeah, there's a lot of comparisons to superman and goku, isn't there? I loved that scene.
Vegeta wasn't the one who commented the issue with Captain Ginyu, but by Goku himself (he realized it when he saw he couldn't use Ginyu's body properly either).
He did it with Goku Black, though.
And then Batman quit while he still drew breath in the prologue of Batman Beyond.
@@JaelinBezel That was more so because he almost broke his moral code because he was forced to use a gun to threaten a crook since he had a heart attack on the job. If he didn't do that, he never would've stopped being Batman.
@@jaredmorales5130 Batman should of retired by 30, let alone fighting god's. Always took me out of comics
Red: "Most people don't remember Nappa, he's not that important."
Nappa: "I am hilarious and you will quote everything i say."
"Are We there yet?"
@@shotq8070 "Vegeta...Vegeeeta...I'm haunting you!"
Nappa: you fell down the stairs
Vegeta: I fell down the stairs...
@@mrernseatthesnickers6839 Nappa: "Hey, i'm Nappa and this is vegeta. He was a prison"
Vegeta: "Don't say it Nappa!"
Nappa: "...bitch"
Let's face it, DBZA is different from DBZ in a lot of ways-and one of the biggest is which characters are memorable.
I haven't seen the new Broly movie, but there was an interesting possibility from the old movie that the gold-hair transformation isn't actually THE LEGENDARY super sayan. It could be that Broly's ability is the actual state that got passed down in the legends and what Goku found has a hidden achievement that no one had managed to unlock before. Vegeta could have been right about the prophesied LSS being merciless, and Frieza actually got taken out by an over-leveled peasant of no particular destiny.
Is this canon? I remember this being stated… while also not being stated?
It makes sense though. When he fights broly at levels far beyond the ss (in the newest film) he still doesn’t stand a chance by himself. Meaning broly, with only one transformation, was able to match ss blue, which matches gods.
We also see other people reach this level and boost from being weak as fudge… to being as strong as goku after he has train intensely for YEARS.
@@coldermusic2729 It's not canon. All the old Brolly stuff, like old the movies, were never canon. The Super Brolly movie, on the other hand, is totally canon.
You need to watch the new movie. Once the fight against Broly starts proper, it just keeps getting more and more peak of awesome.
Its true (as far as in movie stating) in any Broly medium that his wild, uncontrollable, ever increasing power that is green-gold is what the LSS actually is, and what Goku first discovered is a diluted version.
@@MasaokaKun yeah, but I thought the concept of Bodly being the actual legendary super Saiyan is canon in the super broly film.
Not really canon anyway though since Toriyama didn't write it.
"Maybe if we kick Frieza in the nuts we can beat him"
The true horror of Frieza's final form: The reveal that he has no nuts.
They don't want you to know to this but *it's his tail*
@@s4ug4t51
And with that, Goku biting said tail becomes more disturbing. Thanks for that horrible mental image...
He has transcended all weaknesses
I wonder how Frieza's species reproduces
@@ashikjaman1940 Ignoring my reply in this comment, probably like the namekians
Piccolo Jr's backstory actually IS brought up once during the Cell saga (briefly), right before Piccolo and Kame fuse into a super Namekian.
It's also brought up in the Namek Saga while they're trying to figure out how to get to Namek. They talk about when Piccolo Jr fought a disguised Kame at the World Martial Arts Tournament and spoke an alien language, and that's how they remember that Piccolo and Kame are aliens and therefore Kame must have a spaceship.
That was the most disappointing transformation in the show for me. They actually set up how powerful Piccolo and Kami fusing would be in the Namek saga, which on top of them originally being the same person, had me really looking forward to this fusion happening. Then Piccolo kinda does it on a whim and it just allows him to briefly be on the same level as one of the secondary antagonists at that point
@@QuakerMC he was the strongest z fighter at the time
@@Maia_Cyclist For like an episode. This foreshadowed return of his true form couldn't stand up to the main villain and was immediately surpassed by every Saiyan
kind of the problem of scaling bad guys and the new ones being way way way stronger than the old ones since well Piccolo is kind of stronger than Friezza(and super sayians) which would have before gero went SCIENCE(the fact he can just make things that can either scale infinity or never run out of juice is just insane let alone how almost all of them are basically the strongest mortals at the time) mode and bulit said bulishit fighters made him like 3nd strongest being that can act freely in the universe if not a bit higher(2nd or 1st if you don't count any one with god powers)
the 2nd or first is I think moro had his powers removed so he would of been weaker and well buu is sealed(and has god ki now embed into him on a deep level) and the other is Beerus(also he get knocked down a peg if you count people who are forced to remain neturel because Weiss
I want to call attention to something about the Super Saiyan transformation that I hardly see anyone talk about. When Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, his personality becomes far more hostile and belligerent, aka more traditionally Saiyan-like. So, I find it interesting that the same transformation just so happens to change Goku's physical appearance to more closely resemble the character who most represents the Saiyan race as a whole: Vegeta. His hair stands straight up and the the design of his eyes changes from the normal open circles to the closed-off, fully outlined glare that characterizes a lot of villainous Dragon Ball characters, including Vegeta. In short, Super Saiyan Goku more or less looks like a tall, blond Vegeta with bangs.
Likewise, it's a funny coincidence that for Vegeta, for whome Super Saiyan is only a slight exaggeration of his default personality, has the _least_ extreme change in appearance out of anyone. He already has the evil eyes and hair that stands straight up, so Super Saiyan is literally just a palette swap. Just an interesting bit of (probably unintentional) thematic, visual story-telling that I don't see discussed very often.
I do find that very intersting. Yet also equally as interesting as the fact that Goku actually gains pupils in super saiyan, (techincally he gains iris', but you get my point). Something that is usually done to make a character more empathetic.
I don't think Gohan's Super Sayan transformation looks much like Vegeta at all. His hair looks WAY more like his Dad's when he transforms.
It probably matters that the Super Sayan transformation was also a way of showing a character no longer cares about their own self-preservation.
Remember Vegeta's monologue about how he finally unlocked his own Super Sayan transformation through *overwhelming self-hatred* to the point of a psycotic break.
Everything Vegeta did prior to that in the series was in one way or another in service to his ego. It was only when he truly stopped caring that he learned the power of the Super Sayan.
Which feeds into the theme of what makes Gohan so powerful during the Cell saga. He was born seemingly naturally selfless and doesn't enjoy fighting. So he basically stated with Super Sayan unlocked, he just had to level up enough to get there.
Interestingly, later on during the Cell Saga, Goku trains for one year (in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber so it's actually just one day) while in his Super Saiyan form. This causes him to be... let's just say "attuned" to the form, essentially making Super Saiyan a natural part of his base form. While in "Full Powered Super Saiyan" mode, Goku is much more like his regular amicable self, and his hair looks more like it does in his base form. This explains why Goku always gets a new, even stronger transformation. The previous one becomes just a part of him. In fact, this is explicitly what happens with Super Saiyan God. After enough training, Goku and Vegeta both make the red-haired Super Saiyan God part of their base forms. What used to be a grueling exercise is now a simple warm-up.
Also adding to the vagueness, Frieza blew up the Saiyan homeworld because he feared the rise of a Super Saiyan. Made even more interesting that the only Saiyan to stand up to him in the fray was Bardock, Goku's father, who looked almost identical to him
And as mentioned in the video, noncannonically became a super saiyan because of Freiza as well
What about Gine?
@@JaelinBezel She died on Planet Vegeta.
I always wondered why frieza didn't kill off nappa and vegeta after destroying planet vegeta. Was he unaware they were alive or something?
@@invadazim4320 I always thought it was pure ego. He felt like making the Saiyan prince his bitch was too much of an ego trip to give up.
The best part is everything weird on DBZ’s earth can easily be explained by the Dragon Balls themselves. Someone wishing real animal people were a thing, someone wishing for dinosaurs to be revived, etc.
As cool as that theory is, the animal people thing was mostly explained/retconned in the Kakarot game as the result of Animorphaline. It was a drug that could temporarily turn people into beastmen/animal people and was a popular trend when Goku and Bulma were younger but, by the time of Z, it died down in popularity.
It also turned out the Red Ribbon Army gained a good chunk of their funds by selling their own version of the drug, but it was apparently an extra strength version since one side quest you do is trying to help two guys who used the drug turn back to normal.
@@johnnygyro2295 that's cool lore!
@@johnnygyro2295 I prefer to assume that there was a containment breach in Penguin Village.
@@johnnygyro2295 Wasn't oolong, puar, and that one dog person (pilaf's henchman), and that one rabbit goku just put in the moon born as animal ppl?? Wouldn't that mean Animorphaline has been around for quite a long time?
Also my theory is that someone wished animal chicks were real ;)
DBZA did it best when Vegeta keeps getting powerups.
Vegeta: You see, Freeza, you're not just dealing with average Saiyan warrior anymore--"
Freeze: "Oh my god!"
That's right. I've risen beyond the limits. I, Prince Vegeta has finally become a Super Sayian!
And then the pay off in the Broly movie when Vegeta's the one groaning at that phrase.
@@maxteraform Yes yes yes, and then you killed the Jaberwokey and saved Narnia
B*tch you just jealous of my super saiyan swagger.
"they were setting [Piccolo] up yo be a Vegeta-type villain, and then they introduced Vegeta." is such a great sentence
And "goku is winded and says 'that last attack has me spent I must end this quickly' then he doesn't"
I appreciate Red's blunt honesty. "Or... Finally an excuse to make a sideshow about DBZ".
GAGAGAGAGA I just disliked my own face because I am unpretty. HOWEVER: I always like my GOOD videos however. No dislikes allowed where I come from. Don't be mean, dear m
@@AxxLAfriku Sir, this is a Wendy's.
"Finally! A good excuse to have Krillin punched in the face!"
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Hello there.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi GENERAL KENOBI
"Most people don't remember Nappa"
People who watched the Abridged version: Well yes but actually no.
Fun Fact: Akira Toriyama, at the height of his Manga career, was basically a functional drunk. He would routinely spend 3-4 days out of a 7 day work week and rewatching old Jackie Chan movies frame by frame, modeling his fighting poses around it. tl;dr = It's why the action scenes are so good, and he STILL made his deadlines!
what a legend
That explains why the original Dragon Ball has such good fight scenes. Shame it didn't last.
@@weirdofromhalo Which in turn reminds me of the huge amount of hope I had with Ultra Instinct, looking like it would bring some cool choreography and a bit of actual martial arts back into the series, only for it to end up falling back on the same style of fight animation they usually do.
Interesting
@@weirdofromhalo I'm not suprised it tapered off, since that lifestyle sounds completely unsustainable in the long run.
I still remember watching this series for the first time as a kid and being genuinely scared of how different Goku became when he transformed into a super saiyan. I was uncomfortable and scared because he wasn’t the character I knew anymore and seemed like he would kill someone in a heartbeat. I never realized until the more recent years just how good of a writing decision that was
"Uncomfortable and scared" Lol
@@mendheimer3046 they were a kid 😭💔
@@saturndotnet and Goku starts by yelling at his son. Goku almost never screams at people. Even going back to the 22nd Budokai in Dragon Ball, when the Crane School is flatout cheating to restrict Goku's movement, he doesn't scream. He just calls Tenshinhan a cheat and keeps pushing through it. And now Goku's yelling at his son like he's about to start smacking him around.
I can totally see a young kid being freaked out by Goku's newfound attitude.
@@Humorless_Wokescold Even more if you are from a bad family with a violent father and can recognize the signs of a beating.
@@mendheimer3046ooo look at the big man, afraid of sincerity and authenticity 🙄
The best thing about this is Toriyama did not mostly plan this at all and one the reason for it is that they made it blonde to that they didn’t have to color goku hair in the manga and that save a lot of time
the thing is that this was one of the points that toriyama was planing to end the manga but by popular demand he keep going
It was definitely not planned from the beginning of the manga, or even from the beginning of the DBZ portion. But it definitely was planned around the beginning of the Frieza saga, since Frieza himself name drops the concept early in the story.
Of course, that's not to say that Toriyama had the entire arc planned in meticulous detail, but he definitely had a clear direction. That's why the Frieza saga has easily the tightest plot in the DBZ section, if not all of Dragon Ball. (The Saiyan Saga was also pretty tight, but also because the plot was very straight forward, while the Frieza saga has more twists and turns).
Idk you can look it as lazy but how else to you pull off contrast in a colorless medium?
@@representativejoints1188 well he could use the same thing that kuramda use for the bronce cloth turn gold in saint seiya before
@@brainderp808 yes exactly and dragon ball is one of that 90% , that's what he means by unplanned
Also, in the manga the speech bubbles for Goku change. So, usually in the manga the villains have angular speech bubbles and all the good guys have round speech bubbles. But, Goku in Super Saiyan gets angular speech bubbles. It's a subtle difference to show character shift.
The text bubble changes again after Goku and Gohan’s training in the hyperbolic time chamber. His speech bubble as a full power SSJ is rounded again with the added changes to his eyes shape.
Also, Toriyama differentiated between heroes and villains by how much outline there was to their eyes. All the good guys have incomplete outlines, whereas the villains are completely outlined. It's a way to make the bad guys just a little bit unsettling by comparison. Anyway, whenever anyone goes Super Saiyan, their eyes get fully outlined. Goku, in a way, _became a villain_ when he transformed. It was all far too subtle for me to notice until someone pointed it out to me, but it's another cool subtle storytelling tool.
"Chekovs Seafood Dinner" is the funniest thing I've ever heard. I hope Blue can allow us to steal that 10/10 gourmet course of a joke.
44:25 I never thought Goku regretted killing Frieza. I always thought Goku felt true pity for him, because unlike Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Demon King Piccolo, and to varying extent Vegeta, Goku couldn't level with Frieza on an emotional, humane level. The "you fool" is more like Goku coming to terms with Frieza's character and his disposition, and it saddens him.
I think it's regret because he truly never wanted to kill Frieza. Killing for him was something of a last resort, something he never wished to do unless it was absolutely necessary and he had no other option. He thought Freiza was a good opponent, another way of pushing himself to get better, and killing Frieza was the LAST thing he wanted, much like with Vegeta
Red mentioning the existance of 3 other chaotic superpowered monkeys in Journey to the West has now made me even more hyped for the next episodes, but also each year that we don't get there will hurt me a tiny bit harder
🫂
Umm, 3 other monkeys kiiinda sounds to me like Raditz, Nappa and Frieza… somewhat unfortunately.
Edit: Vegeta, obviously. Not Frieza.
@@supC_ well,, yeah
@@supC_ "Raditz, Nappa and Frieza"
@@DavidSartor0 how did I screw that up so badly?
51:21 I love that he brings this up, because even Bardock shinanigans aside, there IS some creedence to the idea that Vegeta was right about the Legendary Super Saiyan. Brolly fits the prophesy as well, but he ALSO squeezes in the 'bloodthirsty and incapable of mercy' thing that Vegeta alluded to. And, to cap it all off, he falls more under the traditional prophesy mold that was discussed, in that he just IS that way, no training required.
...and he was also non-cannon for decades.
The canonical Legendary Super Saiyan from 1000 years ago blew up the original Saiyan homeworld. That's why Vegeta and the rest of the Saiyans remember him as an utterly merciless scourge of worlds. Planet Vegeta, the second Saiyan homeworld, was named that because it was conquered by King Vegeta.
Also, Toriyama didn't just canonize Broly. He canonized Bardock in the same movie, and this Bardock is very different from Z's Bardock. He's basically a sneaky and smarter Goku now.
The Saiyans actually have a bunch of prophesies like the super saiyan god for example
@@andrewsuryali8540
I like the theory that Yamoshi and Cumber were the first two Super Saiyans and fought on opposing sides of the civil war on Planet Sadala. Yamoshi almost won by using the Super Saiyan God ritual, but the time limit ran out, allowing Cumber to kill him. That victory was short lived though, since Sadala pulled a Namek and exploded, leading to the surviving Saiyans having to move elsewhere and with the historical war between Super Saiyans possibly being degraded into a legend that there was only one who accidentally destroyed their planet.
@@carso1500 no... When did they have a prophecy for that?
@@smrutismarak9503 its mentioned in both the movie and the tv series by shenron
Every time Red says “that’s right... FRIEZA!” I can still picture vegeta’s stupid shit eating grin - the one which precedes existential panic after abject failure.
Fucking champion video my dudes.
I blame Team4Star for this programming.
@@luigiboi4244 I praise them for that programing
👹NIGHTMARE👹NIGHTMARE👹NIGHTMARE
On the topic of Goku's behavior changing after the transformation, I remember Master Roshi talking about it on Earth in the anime. Apparently, he could sense him from earth and stated something along the lines of Goku being at a very dangerous point as a warrior and that this amount of sudden power(relatively speaking) can change a man permanently and not always for the better.
Gouken Akuma
Ryu
Roshi is always coming in with the best lines of advice.
@@Ramsey276one Street fighter?....... Oh like a parallel with dark hado and light hado.
Ironically-- Making Dragon Ball Z into a funny abridged show is more in keeping with the original spirit of Dragonball.
I think the part I liked the most was despite it totally satirizing the original piece, it also distilled a lot of the essence of the characters down without really changing them. A bit more snarky in places, but almost all the characters are recognizable as... well, the original characters.
@@kereminde Also sometimes arguably doing some of the characters better, especially the later Cell arc episodes where a lot of the side-action prattle actually was character development the show itself would usually gloss over.
Hard agree. For me, the Abridged Android/Cell saga is superior to the manga/anime original, if only for the better balance between comedy and seriousness (along with some story fixes thanks to the benefit of hindsight). It just feels better to watch.
Db is funny and z can be...I don't like the tone of z. It's way too serious and boring...look at the rocky mountain plains of where vegeta and goku fight...it's so boring to look at same for their rematch...namek is so boring of a setting...they fight 20 in a really boring setting I like 20's hideout and area where they have to find him and the road vegeta loses to 18 on and the island city hopping cell does where 17 fights piccolo on that volcano Island and the cell games occur in the same spot as the other plains battle aka in og db with king piccolo albeit with a little variety with the arena at least...boo takes us more to the sky and supreme kai world which is awesome but I hate how like namek it's very plain and since no one lived on it its empty but somehow has the z sword and kais and a witch in the past and they have earrings and there's comics...smdh...and mountain ranges somehow...fat boo fights us in the dessert too which sucks ass
@@gratuitouslurking8610 And, similarly, was building off things TFS had been saying earlier so... bringing old references back to the forefront as part of their final arc.
I think Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation is the last truly emotional transformation. Since it still follows pure heart being pushed with rage.
Super saiyin 3 is spectacle. "This to go beyond that" *screams breaking space and time*
I somewhat agree, but I think the Battle of Gods ritual, as the last hope for the Earth and the revelation of Pan (chronologically, I mean anyone who watched the end of Z and/or GT knows that she'd eventually be there), was also pretty emotional. And also Vegeta's transformation during the Tournament of Power. It's not only a rejection of Ultra Instinct, but also a reflection on how far Vegeta has come, and on what he's fighting for - honor and love, rather than barbarism and hate.
No. It's for me the worse transformation. The others are more apathetic than bad, which by default make them better.
This one is full on narrative feel manipulation and constant contriveness to justify changing completely a character. Gohan doesn't transform because someone actually important to him die and he feel guilt for not saving him, instead they take a whole ass chapter of having the important characters getting dunked on and tortured by somehow stronger than semi-perfect cell plot devices and only let go once a non character that have 7 lines of dialogue in the entire saga, only 2 of them shared with Gohan, is killed a second time.
Gohan, you know, the kid that constantly go into rage mode in every single fight over any grievous injury of a friend, doesn't move over said friend being tortured, but the death of a nobody that he already though to be dead at this point do it ?
Broly too.
@@maxentirunos To be fair in regards to Gohan's rage, think about how old he was in every rage moment until he went Super Saiyan 2. Only 3-5, which likely makes his rage more equivalent to that of a "tantrum", but by the time of the Cell saga he's truly growing into a person with his own ideology he wishes more than anything he can stand by. He snapped when 16 died, because maybe he was at the end of the day, in the eyes of Gohan, a bystander that he could have saved had he not been so stubborn against letting everything out.
Also, keep in mind, Gohan was holding back because he was afraid he might lose control and hurt someone himself. He knows about his explosive temper; how he attacks in a blind rage. Besides, remember Goku's words to Gohan when he first unlocked the new stage of power? "Get out of here before I lose any sense of reasoning I have left!" (At least in the dub), which could have engrained a sense of fear towards what he could do if even his own father had been so uncertain and angry at the time.
"People in the US didn't get DB before DBZ"
Now every single discussion I had about it with Americans retroactively makes sense!
Edit: I am German and the German dub for Kai got new voice actors who sucked and that's why many Germans didn't care for Kai. We loved DBZ as it was.
We had OGDB but like most 80s/early 90s anime it wasn't pushed or was syndication filler for affiliates for channels like Fox, ABC, and the like.
Unless you saw both long after their dubs came out. Speak for yourself but I saw DB first.
The first series was available, but it only really aired at something like 6am on a Saturday in the early 90's. So there are people like me who got some exposure first, but it certainly wasn't the full experience.
What about the Manga?
@@blackroute1527 The Manga came out after the series here.
Crazy thing is, Goku typically always starts off his fights using only martial arts. He only slowly slides into the Saiyan form of brawling later in most fights or if he needs to change things up. At his core, he is a martial artist, not a Saiyan warrior.
Something that the DBS manga does amazingly, IMO. Ultra Instinct is also the most fitting for him
@@eonnephilim852 ... until it turned into another powerup
The thing is that in the manga they acknowledge that he treats it like a power up and that he won't be able to truly master it until he can use it in his natural state
@@cccbbbccc5910doesn't Ultra Instinct just get stronger with every attack the user evades or deflects? So it kinda rewards Goku's use of martial arts, whereas Ultra Ego gets stronger the more damage the user takes, rewarding Vegeta's brawler fighting style?
@@impartialthrone2097It doesn’t get stronger.
Having Goku turn Super Saiyan was probably the coolest thing I'd seen on TV back when it first happened 😊
Same
All the transformation scenes were cool, but the original is juat so simple and iconic.
Man down right culturally relevant it was that awesome.
Same. As must of people used to complain about it, i also love SS3 first time transformation.
@@woaddragon I agree. The way it was handled narratively may have been lacking, but the animation, music, and the scene itself were fucking incredible.
"That's right, Frieza. You're not dealing with the AVERAGE Saiyan Warrior anymore!" - Vegeta, every Namek Saga episode of DBZA
Red mentioning how often Vegeta says it in the original made me realize that DBZA didnt exaggerate his prattling at all. Making Frieza's growing annoyance of him very reasonable 8D
Haven't we been here before?
Freeza: *having seen Goku dodge all his death beams* "What happened? What the hell are you?!"
Goku: "Don't you get it Freeza? It's just like Vegeta said."
Freeza: "No you ******* don't..."
@@Zalgardis I feel like we have been here before....
"Oh, my Gooooooood!!!!"
To its credit, SS4 from GT actually has a pretty cool thematic hook that sets it apart from the other Super Sayain Upgrades, and it actually takes the big monkey plot point full circle to tie it back into what sayains are about. It's a transformation that requires a sayain to directly confront and reconcile with the broiling font of insatiable violence lurking just beneath the surface of their personality. You could argue they don't explore that angle to its fullest potential, but conceptually I think it's a pretty cool idea
So i personally really like the idea of SSJ4 being the "true" legendary SSJ because of how primal it is. It feels like the thing vegeta described in the legend and has the added thematic of man and beast merging to become stronger than both. Also its the only damn time their aura and energy beams match color, I cant tell you how frustrating it is to see a golden aurad person fire a blue laser thats made from the same energy source
Super Saiyan 4 was EASILY the best thing about Dragon Ball GT. If it had never existed, I don't think that series would still be remembered today.
Big red monkey man
The new Broly pretty much is just that.
Ss4 is da shizz
This moment was immortalized for me by the TFS abridged version.
"Im going to break you."
"What?!"
"Like a kit-kat bar..."
"...WHAT?!"
Goku time!
'Hungry?"
"What?"
"Grab a snickers."
*_THAT'S RIGHT FREIZA, YOU ARE NO LONGER DEALING WITH THE AVERAGE SAIYAN WARRIOR ANYMORE_*
Oh, _Here we go..._
"Not going anywhere for awhile? Grab a Snickers!" - Goku
"I...can't help but feel that we're both missing some context here." - Cooler
*gets hit*
"...WHAT?!"
I’ve never read journey to the west or watched dragon ball z but I do know a fair bit about buddhism and I might be jumping a bit far with this one, but there is the idea (in some sects of buddhism) that while one can become enlightened through the usual paths of discipline and mediation and lifetimes of devoted study (training really hard) someone who is experiencing a life state of hell and suffering and yet maintainins the spirit of the buddha’s teaching (pure heart awakened by fury) can also become enlightened. That could be a really cool callback to the buddhist themes of journey to the west...or it could be me seriously over analyzing this show.
Or both
To be fair, given what Ultra Instinct is and what Dragon Ball is about generally, you're _possibly_ over-analyzing, but _definitely_ correct in saying that Buddhism is a part of this. It's kind of like how you don't need to be Christian in the western world to use Christian themes (or Greek mythology classics) for the sake of stories, it's buried _that_ deep into culture that it shows up here and there from time to time.
The concept of buddhist-based enlightenment basically has that degree of influence in Asia, at least as part as I've been told by people who live there.
@@twaggytheatricks4960 Given how Toriyama would watch a lot of wuxia features (so much of the series' combat owes a lot to them, right down to certain techniques, the aerial battles, and high speed flurries of punches and kicks stemming from those films), it's pretty much a certainty that a lot of those ideas would've been embedded into his thought process while making the series.
@@Sawngawkuh Right? It makes perfect sense to me.
Though I didn't know about that bit of information, I do know that wuxia choreographies are pretty much a _part_ of Chinese/Japanese culture _at least,_ and Dragon Ball is pretty freakin' full of it, so, yeah.
@@twaggytheatricks4960 Yeah. Chinese Martial heroes were all the rage at the time, which undoubtedly influenced a number of anime series back then. Fist of the North Star was another Wuxia-based series. Some have tended to misattribute a fair bit of DBZ's combat to FotNS (due to coming out a bit earlier), when the reality was that both works were just part of a larger genre.
I do like how, in the post-toriyama era, they did push the "this transformation makes our goofy fighty monkey-boy scary" button, with the way Ultra Instinct left Goku silent and grim and purely focused on fighting. But it didn't quite hit with the same emotional underpinning as OG super saiyan.
Well, not quite.
...Wait, shit, sorry- I should start by stating that I actually agree with your point, because it's- it's good stuff. They did manage to do Ultra Instinct justice in more than one ways.
What I meant to say was: the point of UI was never to be _like_ Super Saiyan, and therefore the emotional impact is much _different._ Like, when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan for the first time and acted the way he did, shock, concern and hype for the cathartic beatdown that was sure to follow are sure to come by.
But it's not like the moment where Goku masters UI and then _all the gods of Destruction just get up from their seat in sheer respect for having seen a mortal step in their realm for the very first time_ by mastering their state of mind didn't bring some well-done emotional underpinning. Especially when Beerus smiles a hungry, prideful smile at realizing that the dude he hung out with did what wasn't supposed to be really possible.
It's just... different. Definitely comparable, but they can be equally impactful - they just don't bring the same kind of fun to the Dragon Ball's long-running fight-based hype table, so, they'll affect people differently.
i think that says more about what people like to see then about the transformations,if people rather see emotional rage moment then a calm collected fighter wel thats an issue in the psychology of these people,i rather like UI its actualy more interesting to me then ssj.
On an emotional level, I wasmost similarly impacted during Goku's Rage-Out when Zamasu and Goku Black told him about murdering Chichi and Goten. The transformation is a great representation of the mental snap, but the mental snap is what hit me most, so seeing Goku assumingly ready to merc these two gleeful genocidal murderers with prejudice is I think the clearest analogue.
Which they foiled afterwards in a good way common in Super by Not having Goku solve every villain problem.
Ultra Instinct is lame. It's just a deathless cheat that rewards losing. It also makes the years of training and developing techniques seem pointless because ALL of that failed in order to activate it. No input needed from the user who is literally unconscious, it does the all the fighting for them. Rather than let Goku lose, or force him to learn his opponent or train some more, it just hands him the win after clearly losing. Like that's super cheap to me.
You could give this transformation to any character and make them the strongest character in the series.
@@poly_g6068 you say it doesn't reward training as if the very first arc in Super isn't about them using the dragon balls to learn a ritual to become stronger
It's interesting how different the perception of DB is in the USA. In Mexico we got first a high quality dub of the original DB, which I used to watch before going to school around 1996. So we got to know Goku from its childhood, and then we saw DBZ with a fantastic dub, and DBKai was the bad quality dub for us, as it came around a time where the latin american dub was going downhill.
Funny you mention that. I got to see Sean Schemmel at an anime con once and he explained that, back then, they actually used the Spanish dubs of the series to make the English dub, because it was easier for them to obtain those than it was to try and obtain/translate the originals from Japan.
I remember being excited to the Kai's opening (read: modern animation) and then extremely dissapointed with the episode's animation (read: 1996 quality). I didn't watch Kai because of that. Also, Saludos desde Argentina!
Yeah this here, Latin American DB and DBZ dub was incredible. It was the golden age really, 90s and early 00s mexican dubs were some of the best out there, Gundam Wing's was amazing and right now I don't remember other animes from back then (I watched DB and DBZ the first time in a rerun around the 00s same with Wing) but everything went to hell in the late 00s because everybody just watched subs in the internet, we've gotten some of the quality back these days but it's not the same.
We have to thank the gaming industry for that, after they started voicing games with Latin American voices for us the guys in the TV realized that we wanted characters voiced with accents we recognized and didn't sound weird (I'm talking about you Spain!).
@@Falzyker From the same era I have precious memories of Ranma 1/2, Digimon, Slayers, Magic Knigths Rayearth, Ghost Sweeper Mikami and Ghost Stories with Shaman King being the last dub I really enjoyed. Back then was also the time when even the openings of those animes got a loyal full translation instead of cheap jingles (I cringed hard when i heard the "Digi-rap" the US used for Digimon instead of Butterfly, or whatever was called that they used for Shaman King)
Db kai is generally a bad series, the og is superior
the part about Goku's face after he "kills" Frieza, wasn't because he felt bad about killing him, it was that he gave Frieza multiple chances to admit defeat and that he was wrong and should change his ways, just as he essentially done with Yamcha, Tien, even Krillin if you want to get technical, even Piccolo and eventually Vegeta turned good and Frieza chose to try and kill him even after all that. It wasn't that Goku felt bad about killing Frieza it was that he felt bad that there were people like Frieza, Goku's always given almost everyone second chances minus Tambourine and King Piccolo, and after all the second chances he gave Frieza, Frieza still only wanted to kill him and rule the Universe
Yeah, it must have sucked to realize that while you can always kick a bad guys ass you cant change who they are and some people are not good deep down. Its an antithesis to what goku stands bym
I'm with you on this. It's pretty clear to me the intention was that Goku was upset because here was someone who could choose to be better, like so many he'd met. Only, like King Piccolo, he chooses to be a petty evil tyrant. For anyone, having a chance at redemption thrown back in their face stings. For someone like Goku, it's an especially bitter pill to swallow.
@@Sorain1 tbf. Goku proabably thinks that he managed to change king piccolo (since Piccolo jr. Was the reincarnation of king piccolo and he changed)
Well that's the beauty of art and literature, that's your subtly different interpretation on a single cell in a story. there's no wrong answer, we all read the emotion but its cause is gonna hit differently for different people.
It was frustration. ‘Why did I even try?’
"Most people don't remember Nappa, he isn't that important." - Red
"I am hilarious and you will quote everything I say." - DBZA Nappa
Hey vegeta, are we there yet?
My thoughts exactly
@@rollochairbreaker230
Filho de uma mulher que troca favores por dinheiro, eu ia dizer exatamente isso!
~My response when she said that was "Except for everyone that watched Abridged!"
I still wish it were somehow canon, like by the time he's revived he's so weak, that he just throws in the towel and lives a more simple, but lavish life. So he's not relevant to any plots, but can be included in those rare random just for fun moments. Or, worse, just mostly forgotten like 17 and Lunch/Launch.
@@ShaimingLong 17 did get to shine in the universe tournament arc, and honestly made him one of my favorite characters, but yeah, too many good side characters get sidelined because of power creep. It's a shame
Wow the whole "everyone can go super saiyan now" is a lot like what happened in Kingdom Hearts. Sora was supposed to be the only Keyblade wielder, like there was originally only one Keyblade and Sora was the only one who could use it, and now almost every single one of his friends has one.
Edit: I meant in the original game. I'm aware there were other Keyblades and wielders at the time/ before but when there was only the first game no one knew this. The series retcons itelf all the time anyway.
It's the fate of every "special power" in a series that runs long enough, unless it's some villains' powers because they only ever show up once early on and are ignored because the writers don't think to go back to them until later when they actually, y'know, need more material.
...no that's not the voice of experience, i don't know what you mean. *whistles*
@@J3Puffin **COHAMONUGH**
It's one thing in a shounen series, especially manga, where you have one week to make an entire instalment and you need to toss whatever first draft you have to the illustrators with enough time for them to ink it. It's worse in something like a game or adapted series, where you have months or years of writing time to fine-tune the plot, and yet somehow manage to do no better.
Well King Mickey and Riku already had there own keyblades in that game. Sora story is more of a "anyone can wield the or a keyblade if thier heart is righteous and formed connections with others." Riku is actually suppose to be the only one to use it but because he only relied on his own strength for increasingly selfish means leads to him losing his right to wield that keyblade and he switches to another keyblade from ansem.
So it's not really that weird or against the themes of the franchise for others to wield one, whether they be good or evil, so long as thier resolve was strong, a connection is formed or just thier own strength of heart.
Also the game never really went into depth what exactly made the Kingdom Key special. Like it is but it's mostly spoken about it being important than going into the why or how its important. So KH1 more inverts the chosen one story both with the user and kind of with the special sword. It be like if King Arthur was suppose to wield Excalibur but then some peasant guy was chosen by the sword because he's shown more chivalry and heroism.
*"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see all your accomplishments plagiarized"*
46:16 One thing that's never really discussed about DBZ is how much the series divorces itself from Dragonball after the Super Saiyan Legend is fulfilled. If you're just watching it in anticipation for the progression of strength, you probably didn't notice it, but it's all there.
-All of the weird quirky bits of Dragonball......just disappear. All of the animal people are gone. There's no weird jokes. Characters don't have weird powers anymore. There's no characters being serious while doing completely silly things like Tao Pai Pai flying in on a column or the Ginyu Force's whole routine. Some of it comes back by the Buu Saga, but the series has already set in the new tone by then.
-Saiyan or Get Out: Well, the new bar is Super Saiyan, so that means only Saiyans are really allowed to do much of anything. All non-Saiyan characters quickly become irrelevant, and it doesn't help that most of them were dead for an entire arc. We need a new Saiyan, so Yamcha/Bulma are broken up so Vegeta/Bulma can be set up. Goku's not going to have a kid out of wedlock, so he's gotta come from somewhere! Yamcha and Bulma had been going out since the very beginning of the series, but too bad, we NEED a new Saiyan!
-The Dragonballs aren't the primary focus on the plot. Every arc outside of a tournament up to this point had focus put on the Dragonballs. Now they're just there for clean up. A big reset button. I don't even think that the Androids/Cell even know what the Dragonballs are. There was always a little bit (not much, let's not pretend otherwise) more going on just fighting. Even in the middle of fighting Freeza, there's a little time spent for a Dragon summoning gambit. Now it's down to "Are you stronger than the New Enemy? No? Okay, we've got problems".
-All the mysticism, magic of the series is just gone. The Dragonballs are less of these magical devices that can do almost anything, but now just some tool you get your Namekian friends to build. And they've just got two sets to use, and they're just used as a reset device after you've finished punching the badguys in the face.
Senzu Beans go from this magical legume that can heal all wounds, repair broken bodies and keep you fed for several days to "the energy refiller!" They're basically E-Tanks now. Did you bring enough E-Tanks to beat Dr. Gero's Android Masters? Senzu Beans can repair a hole in your chest, but don't be silly, they can't do anything against a virus! Only Cold Hard Science is can fix that, no magical way out here!
King Kai goes from giving out advice, constantly watching over Goku and commentary, to "Eh, not my problem!" Goku might ask him a question once in a blue moon. Remember how King Kai saw fit to tell Krillin how to properly throw the Spirit Bomb? Future Trunks? You're on your own, kid.
-All the pragmatism is gone. In the prior arcs, the protagonists would adapt to a situation and try and make the most of it. "Better team up with Piccolo, because there's no way I can fight this new guy by myself." "Goku is losing to Vegeta? Well, I guess we gotta go back." "We better take a Dragonball so Freeza can't make a wish" Everyone contributes to fighting against Vegeta/Freeza at the end of their arcs. Even if they don't end up doing much, everyone is at least revving up for combat. Everyone gears up to fight the Red Ribbon Army. Everyone gears up to fight Piccolo Daimou. The only reason Tien didn't use the Mafuba because the rice cooker was broken. No matter what's going on, everyone usually gets mixed in it.
In the Android/Cell arc, everyone stands around while the Current Strongest Saiyan (or Namekian that one time) does all the fighting. Hell, instead of having the situation dropped on their heads and dealing with it, everyone waits three years for the Androids to appear because the Saiyans want a go at them. Furthermore, the entire plot of the Android/Cell saga is driven by the characters dropping the ball at critical moments. Vegeta may as well have picked up the script and said "It says I can't just kill you because this conflict isn't over, so go ahead and transform".
I think a scene that summarizes some of these points the best is when Bulma flies up Kami's Lookout and shows up with Saiyan Battle Armor to give to everyone, and only the Saiyans wear them. You're not supposed to be able to fly up there with a plane, but who cares, there's no magic here anymore. I guess if you know where it is and want to go hang out, you can just jet on over. Piccolo and Tien don't wear them, because fuck, they're not going to do anything, their time is past. Does Tien even train while he's up there? Of course the Saiyans wear them, they're the only relevant characters here.
I can't remember where I read this, but as far as I'm aware Toriyama's original intent was to end the series on the Frieza saga. When he found he was unable to get anything else published (as in, his publishers told him "either you make more Dragon Ball or you deal with unemployment") he managed to pull out the Cell saga, which did lessen the impact of some of the themes of previous storylines, but still held it together well enough to make a strong finish with the passing of the torch to Gohan. Basically, everything since the Frieza saga has been a combination of Toriyama's bosses refusing to publish anything other than Dragon Ball, and the fans endlessly asking for more, even when the story is wrapped up with a neat bow... or so I've heard.
Demonstrating the power the publishers started exerting over Toriyama, I've also read that Androids 19 and 20 were originally intended to be the Big Bads of that saga, as with 16, 17, and 18, and when the publishers told Toriyama repeatedly that those characters weren't cool enough, he finally came up with Cell. Which, if we're talking about departures from the original themes of Dragon Ball, good god! He might be a cool concept but he does NOT fit in this universe!
@@MenachemSchmuel At least the arc was funny in DBZA 😔
@@MenachemSchmuel Way I heard it, Cell Saga in itself was supposed to close the book on Goku with his decision to stay dead at the end, and (if anything) let Gohan take the stage. Nope! Executive meddling said “bring him back anyway,” and because they got away with it that time, they’ve been getting away with it _ever since_ .
Excellent analysis
Tien got short-changed in the anime. He KiKohod cell for 3 hours
I feel that Vegeta just thought with each power boost, he'd magically become a Super Saiyan if he just shouted it out loud enough.
I mean, the plan sort of worked in the next arc.
“I need you to ALMOST kill me.”
“What?”
Quote TFS
well you also have to be pure of heart. and vegetas heart is pure, pure unadulterated badass
@@captianbacon more like pure unadulterated ego
@@トーキ-g8v I heard that Triclops!
I wanna be a Super Saiyan! I wanna! I wanna! I wanna! - DBZA Vegeta
The most hilarious part of it is Toriyam did this so he wouldn’t have to color Goku’s hair every frame 😂
You think the only reason Vegeta was killed was so Toriyama wouldn’t have to color his hair either 😂
The best changes are ones made of practicality lol
Like Naruto's headband
Goku also permanently lost his tail near the end of DragonBall because Toriyama didn't wanna draw it anymore
@@ashikjaman1940 Or Mario's entire design.
Technically so his _assistant_ wouldn't have to color his hair every frame.
DBZ is capable of handling some moments perfectly. The OG Super Saiyan transformation, Gohan going SS2 against Cell, Vegeta sacrificing himself in the Buu saga. Excellent stuff
Hercule befriending Buu.
@@9Godslayer Hercule? Did American censors seriously call him by a different name? That is absolutey hilarious.
Arph I 100% don't believe you have never heard of the name Hercule it's such a known thing my phone auto corrected the lower case h to H because it's his proper name
@@Arphemius yeah Mr. Satan did not go over well here
@@hokage9990 But that's the best part! At the end when Goku needed to power up the spirit bomb and so the entire planet Earth raised up their hands and chanted "Satan! Satan! Satan!" I just laughed my ass off.
I genuinely did not know that until just now when Tyler mentioned the name.
"currency inflation"-- it's generally called power creep, and affects many a shounen manga and long-running video game franchise.
Has this channel talked about One Piece? it has done a really well job at managing power creep, and his story and worldbuilding are magnificent
@@LunarianQueen Neither of them have watched/read One Piece, and it's too long to casually breeze through.
@@Dessinger2 I think that is actually a good thing. It’s incredibly daunting to those who the content wouldn’t appeal to in the first place, meanwhile it slowly converts those willing to try into mega fans.
That’s ideally the kind of long running series you want to create: a hardcore audience. It maximizes the long term readership. It’s the complete opposite strategy to Marvel comics who keeps restarting their series in order to get comic scalpers and new fair-weather fans who statistically fall off after a third issue
Jojos and hxh has shown good ways of reducing alot of the power creep
Super Saiyan is straight up a power cliff. Yamcha on the other hand gets power crept out of relevancy, and that started after the very arc that he was introduced in.
You forgot one of the most important details Vegeta slowly dying and reveling to everyone that Freiza blew up the sayian homeworld and genocided their species for a prophecy that may not even come true. While crying showing everyone Freiza truly broke him and if things were different maybe he could’ve been a good guy.
Goku: Oh I get it. If it weren't for Freezer, you wouldn't be...
Vegeta: Dying?
Goku: I was gonna say evil.
Vegeta: Oh no, I'd definantly still be evil.
yeah that last part is 90s funimation dub but it is true that vegeta begged goku to avenge their race after frieza basically stabbed them in the back
"You'd be dead, and I'd be laughing. Hehehehehehohithurtstolaugh"
while its cool for Goku's character to recognize his saiyan heritage, it doesnt really do anything for the profecy or the super saiyan transformation itself. Its not like he has to be or think like a saiyan to transform.
@@ero-senninsama1734 It's not necessarily about goku though, I think it leans more toward the implication that freiza actively fears the prophecy and would rather destroy this entire race of very useful mercenaries over a shallow prophecy than risk it being true. It gives the prophecy more weight by showing the main villain has actively attempted to prevent it, implying the prophecy of hope is what doomed their race. It gives the prophecy a "stained in blood" touch, which is fun.
It's funny how the "4 saiyans left" thing was a reference to Journey but then later on was retconned to be 7 saiyans, if you include Tarble, Broly, and Paragus
If I remember correctly, the super broly movie had a scene showing vegeta, nappa, and raditz reacting to the news of their planet exploding and there were 1 or 2 other saiyans shown with them.
@@thekenyonsquad5672 we can supose that those died in the like 20 years between the explosion of planet Vegeta and the Saiyan saga
Tables not cannon
@@jacobhealy8376 he’s referenced in super. not by name but bulma asks vegeta if he could call his brother to help with the ssj god ritual.
@@jacobhealy8376 He is in fact cannon now, during the event's of the battle of gods ark when Beerus shows up. all the saiyans need to pool their energy into Goku so he can become the saiyan god. But they need six saiyans to do this and only have five, which prompts Bulma to ask Vegeta what if they asked his brother Tarble.
“You see, Frieza, you’re not dealing with the average Saiyan warrior any more.”
FRIEZA: Oh, my God, this IS happening again!
"I am hilarious, and you will quote everything that I say."
Oh lord I traded Vegeta for this!
@@Snorlax_il Arguably, one of Goku's greatest feats at that point was making Freeza miss Vegeta.
@@treyhelms5282 And make him miss Sabon too xD
One thing that I think could have been brought up is just how much Sean Schemmel's voice work adds to the "this is a different person" feeling of the transformation in the English dubs. His base Goku voice and super saiyan voice sound like two different characters. Goku straight up goes from a tenor to a baritone a soon as his hair starts glowing, and it's real uncanny the first time you hear it, like a friend you've known for years all of a sudden has been replaced with someone who only *sort of* looks and sounds like them.
i would argue this also applies to masako nozawa's performance too.
she takes a noticeably more deep and almost sinister tone for his super form, which does a good job at conveying just how much goku's mental state shifted during the transformation.
honestly they all do it well Mario Castañeda also sounds very different in the Latino dub
Fits how Goku was feeling when that happened, too. Turning SS1 against Frieza is the only time Goku ever goes so far as to say that he will make his opponent SUFFER. Not that he won't forgive them, like the LAST time someone killed Krillin. Not even that he's going to kill him. But that he's going to make him suffer. GOKU said that.
It’s my favourite thing about SSB KaoKen Goku in Super, the dub has Goku sound like he’s on the verge of exploding from the strain of the technique
There's a lot of subtle changes about super saiyan. Beyond the hair. Goku had open eyes. They close fully. Goku had floppy hair. It's spiked. In the Manga, goku had round text boxes like all the heroes. When he turns they become square like all the villains
Now that I think about it, Goku staying in space after Namek makes a lot of sense from his perspective - though I don't really remember the anime going into it all. Goku just awakened a side of himself that is near-uncontrollably powerful and is scary even to himself - I think Goku wouldn't want to go home to his friends and family until he knows he can control this godly powerful near-berserk state if for no other reason than he doesn't want to lose control and or accidentally hurt (or even kill) anyone; even someone who so downright necessitates being killed such as Frieza.
This video could just be an hour of red and blue charging up their ki and yelling, and I would still watch it at least five times.
And they would insist it was only 5 minutes
A three episode powerup, weak sauce.
@@earnestbrown6524 It's only the first training arc, give it a few mutual kills and resurrections.
I understand being bummed by how Super Saiyan was handled after but I’m really surprised you didn’t touch on Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 transformation it’s had as much of a “prophecy” feel to it and little bits into it since the beginning of DBZ.
Gohan's transformation was more contrived due to his ultimate trigger being android 16's death. And their shared connection of nature and animals were suppose to convince us that Cell killing him would be the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, it was extremely hype when I initially saw it 15 years ago but rereading/re-watching the Cell saga since then has made it much more clear that--in my opinion--Goku's SSJ1 transformation was much better.
@@natenatenate10 I understand where you’re coming from and in some aspects I agree. But I’d argue that this being Gohan’s ultimate snap and the pay off for two whole prior arcs still cements it as one of the better transformations in the series. While I completely agree that Goku’s original ssj was better, I disagree with “16” being the trigger for Gohan. I’d say it’s more so the act of cell killing someone in front of him thats the real trigger. This is something the original dub really fumbled imo as it’s more so Gohan’s hate for violence that causes him to lose it. I mean Cell taunts and challenges him by sending the Cell jrs after his friends that almost causes him to go ballistic but it’s ultimately a character death that does the trick as it should. And while I understand that Gohan and 16 never even met until the start of the cell games (admittedly that’s pretty dumb) the transformation still works. It doesn’t really matter who died more so that someone DID die. Also I mean 16 was the only real option to be killed as everyone else could have been brought back by the dragon balls. Regardless, the monologue in his head that the dub does honestly kinda ruin the scene for me as it’s not present in the original Japanese dub or the manga and completely changes the perception of the moment in the eyes of the audience.
@@natenatenate10 The entire saga suffers from this sort of thing imo, its very jarring how suddenly it becomes Gohan's story when he didn't have any particularly connection to events any moreso than anybody else and certainly not to Cell in particular and it has to rely on the death of a very recently introduced side character for it to stick. The main thing it has going for it is finally seeing Gohan step up to the plate after a long time being told he has all this potential.
@@malleableconcrete fully agree and this is where, ironically, I’d argue that the anime filler actually does a better job at actually including Gohan in the arc. You don’t even see his original ssj transformation or really much of his training in the time chamber at all in the manga. As for cell and Gohan not having a connection, I can see the argument that the timid child underdog who barely even believes in himself having to stand up and defeat beyond arrogant monster works narratively ( certainly more than whatever buu was but I digress)
@@noe9982 When I say connection I mean on a personal level, Future Trunks has every reason to hate the likes of 18, 17, Black and Zamasu and that gets paid off when you see him do stuff like go back to the future and kill the androids or slice Fused Zamasu in two, Vegeta and Goku have every possible reason to want to put Frieza in the ground, considering what he's done to their entire race and their closest ones, and it all makes the climax of Goku defeating and humiliating Frieza with his own sense of generosity all the more sweet.
Even in your description Cell is just kind of a smug monster for Gohan to overcome, it kind of works from that angle but the part of Cell could have been occupied by almost any other villain at that point.
i love how super saiyan became so commonly used that vegeta kind just.... forgot that it was a big deal. like, during the 6/7 tournament he tells cabbe "hey lets stop messing around and go super saiyan yeah?" just completely disregarding that it was so rare that even he wasn't sure it was real lol
His mind broke when he saw kid Trunks transform in front of him.
I excused the Saiyan Z Fighters going Super Saiyan but I lost it when I say Cabba and the U6 Saiyans do it so easily out of nowhere. At least with Trunks and Goten you could say Super Saiyan is passed down genetically...
thats the disappointing thing about fantasy is realizing that the impossible dream world is more relative, we could be a fantasy world to a hypothetical possible reality. i didnt think zebras were real because they seemed kinda on the nose but no one cares about them really.
@@AsymmetricalCrimes with that I'd say cabba had a proper transformation. The tingling sensation was his own way of trying to explain how it felt, rather than that being the actual cause (which people think is how it works for him)The universe 6 Saiyans are also slightly different from universe 7 Saiyans their potential has to change in order to get them strong enough to transform
@@AsymmetricalCrimes ehh yea but it isn't a big deal plus the U6 saiyans are clearly quite different to the U7 saiyans, like they don't have tails and tend to be more calm and less bulky. That could explain the differences in how easy it is for them to go super saiyan, plus just having someone who is already a super saiyan help you would speed up the process, as we saw with Gohan (though it was much faster for U6 saiyans)
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
Is kind of the conclusion I draw from this video
Demons run when a good man goes to war.
Love that quote. Personally I think all three fears are predicated on the same thing: which is unpredictability.
Amusingly, in Dragon Ball, a night without a moon tends to be safer for the general population.
@@lorcostridge2811there's also the 4th (maybe more like 3.5) fear of unpredictability, "The most terrifying form of man, is one that's accepted they're already dead."
All of this stuff about how Dragon Ball was originally a comedy and the importance of comedy to the original story makes me understand why the Dragon Ball Abridged series has become so compelling to so many people, to the point of being regarded almost as a fan-dub rather than a parody
Right! They see the authors vibes and ride it through because it feels right.
it absolutely starts as parody, but somewhere in the namek saga it gets great
All I have to say is "All these squares make a circle"
It paid off to have the source material at their fingertips to thread everything together in a way that the originals couldn't while having their cake too. It's my favorite fan work.
"Super Saiyan? What even is that" I'm pretty sure tfs and Red came to a lot of the same conclusions as well
I love how DBZ Abridged held on to the comedic roots of the series while still being evolving into something more serious over time
Plus, Piccolo, Nail and Kami are an incredible comedic trio
Now hear me out. Big Green Threads
The best part about SAO Abridged is that SWE learnt this principle super well and is applying that to a series that took itself crazy seriously, making it sooo much better for it.
@@J3Puffin New episode came out today and it’s awesome!
@@connorwalters9223 IKR
YOU CAN WIN
YOU FEEL GREAT
YOU
CAN
DO
THIS
Completely agree; especially with the "downgrading" part. I always felt it was a very missed opportunity to develop the internal changes and dangers of going Super. Once it is clear that there is no ONE Super Saiyan
Like, the Saiyajin-Human-Hybrids do it for Sunday breakfast, and everyone is kind of bummed about that. But all that's discussed is "It requires a lot of training and preparation." It would have been much cooler if they focused more on the whole "You can do it, but it changes you and you need to be ready for all the rage and power!"
Yeah, I mean I guess it would've been a more complex version of the giant monkey powerful, because the characters are concious.
That last part would have made Vegeta too cool, because we already saw Goku become Vegeta minus the willing to kill when he was a Super Saiyan. It would be like the Great Ape form, with the context of Dragon Ball, of "Oh no, that ultra powerful form Goku could achieve that no one could stop is something Vegeta can control with no problem at all!" Vegeta does that with Super Saiyan and thus establishes how absolutely terrifying he is once again, and luckily he spent enough time on Earth that he isn't ready to immediately turn that power on everyone.
It also would help if Trunks immediately displayed his backstory of going Super Saiyan after seeing Gohan dead and then his attempt at revenge on the androids so it's "Oh, Trunks was like the next generation of the prophecy."
Gohan going super saiyan 2 against Cell should have been the standard personality of the super saiyan form. just like with Goku against Freeza, Gohan enjoyed breaking Cell down, depowering him both figuratively and very literally. the form of super saiyan increasing your physical state but also your mental state to a dangerous degree would have been enough of a draw back that you could understand the characters being reluctant to go into that form and even goku still using kao ken from time to time.
@@Zekana0 "I'm not done tearing the wings off this butterfly"
@@ashikjaman1940 "Red Flag!"
The funny thing about the currency inflation of Super Saiyans is that even Vegeta notices and gripes about it -- when he finds out that Trunks and Goten both have it, he gripes that it's like there was a "Super Saiyan bargain sale."
Nice bit of self awareness there lol
The most telling thing to add on the tonal shift was when he tells Gohan essentially, "leave this area right now before I lose all sense of reason/go in to a blind rage," kind of akin to when Goku transformed in to a giant monkey back then. This time being more like when the Wolfman begins to transform and is telling his loved ones to run away.
Also part and parcel the reason the "5 minutes" was as long as it was is because back then Toriyama was still working on the manga and Toei was like,"Sheit!! Stall for time! Stall for time!!"
I don't think goku cared about losing himself or gohan safety...he just wanted to proved himself and fight freeza one on one to the end for his people..he wanted to humiliate him and show him mercy prove he was wrong about saiyans and prove why he was the fated chosen one son of his people and rewarded the ssj transformation ...he was also ok losing...he wanted gohan to leave to continue the fight on earth just in case he loses and freeza attacks earth....
There was one other thing Frieza did that I thought pretty important: right after he killed Krillin, he said "now for the boy" or something like that. This was important to me because until Trunks and Goten showed up, I felt like there was a bit of a pattern to the transformations. Just about every time it happened, there was an element of desperation to it. I was it as less a matter of rage than of need. A need so overwhelmingly powerful that everything else disappears and all that's left is having enough power to do what must be done. For Goku, sure avenging Krillin might be able to do this, but stopping his son's murder (even with the way he sees his kids) seems like it at least played a part in pushing him over that edge. And then Trunks and Goten did it just by copying the big kids, and Cabba was able to teach Kale and Caulifla to just focus on a spot on their backs. Seriously, I had no problem with crazy badass Saiyan women, but nerfing the transformation to that level was just wrong.
"The Super Saiyan transformation comes from a need, not a desire"
-Somewhere on the dragon ball wiki
The U6 Saiyans were supposed to be smart. How much better would it have been if theyd achieved the transformation using technology rather than nerfing it?
@@Damianweibler Like using some machine like the Blutz wave from GT? that would have been awesome, like a stronger, but much more limited super saiyan as a throwback to SS4 to contrast the godly powers of Blue.
@@Damianweibler Now that might've been interesting. But then the bar is low; there's not much that'd feel dumber than "just focus your energy on your back".
@@MB-hc9we Yeah, I think that line to Gohan was what led to me taking that theory. And it does fit for most of them. In most cases more than rage the core seemed to be desperation. Gohan didn't even have anything to be mad about when he achieved it.
“Only Frieza can be that stupid to provoke Goku”
There’s a saying that said “Don’t poke the bear”
Turns out you shouldn't poke the monkey, either.
Oh No Brolly, a stray energy blast has killed your father.
I saw a video not long ago of a guy kicking a wild bear. It goes like you think, bear looks around confused and then mauls the guy.
*100 ft space monkey
There's also one that says "When you find yourself in a hole, it's time to stop digging." Frieza ignored that one too.
"We're gonna pretend like pop culture osmosis has not taught every single one of us what a super saiyan is"
No worries here super saiyan has never managed to bypass the rock I've lived under for 90% of my life
Something something, Legally Blonde, something something
45:25 During the buildup to the Buu saga when young Trunks transforms in the gravity chamber, Vegeta has a great one-liner about how the Super Saiyan transformation gets downgraded to just the thing you do to be relevant, IIRC the exact like is "What is this, a bargain basement Super Saiyan sale?"
*Vageta:* "I hate the idea of having a child who could surpass me."
*Bulma:* "Sounds cringe, bro."
Goku: “Sounds cringe bro”
Gohan: Sounds cringe, bro.
Piccolo Sr.: Sounds cringe, bro.
Trunks: Sounds cringe, dad.
King Vegeta: "Sounds cringe, bro."
From the way Frieza was written, it seemed like Frieza was meant to be the final boss of the series and because it didn't end, villains had to be power crept like crazy and makes Frieza weaker by comparison.
Some people do believe that the Namek Saga was supposed to be the series finale. Whether it was or not has been a matter of debate, but yeah, writing by the seat of your pants does have some flaws. That said, I do like some of the post Namek stuff, like Dr Gero (especially with FighterZ and Kakarot adding backstory) and Beerus.
@@johnnygyro2295 Cell I could understand being stronger than Frieza given he has cells from everyone. But I could never understand where 17 and 18 gained infinite stamina and energy, and why Gero didn't just give it to himself or any of the other Androi-Cyborgs, Cyborgs.
If I remember correctly, Toriyama wanted to end the series at the end of the cell games, leaving Goku dead and Gohan as the protector of earth (being that it was the only time he was canonically the most powerful of the whole cast). But there was something that made it so he had to continue. I don't have a source for it. I just feel like I remember hearing this back in the day on youtube discussion about DBZ
EDIT: upon doing some research it seems like the only CONFIRMED time that Toriyama wanted to end the series was after the first original Dragon Ball arc. While he did say there were multiple points in the series he wanted to end the run but he couldn't due to the manga's skyrocketing popularity, but there are no confirmations of specific arcs or times when wanted to stop besides the initial arc.
You could say that about Tien, and Piccolo too
@@JamiTake2 thank you for factchecking, this one goes around a lot even a version where people say fans bullied toriyama into making the series continue, its all crock
Funny little side note to give to Blue: The Spirit Bomb almost never works, exception being Kid Buu. It's supposed to be this amazing skill fueled by the energy of countless living beings, but as far as reliability goes, it kinda stinks XD
When you tell your enemy you are going to incinerate them with a glowing ball of pure energy that takes prayer and teamwork and standing still yelling for half an hour...
Is there anyone who would be like "man, you and I are having such a good conversation, I really couldn't leave now...or step to the side by a single block"...
I mean it's non canon but the Genkidama also worked on Omega Shenron but then again that was made up of energy from all across the universe
And with Kid Buu, it only worked because it's super-effective against evil and Kid Buu is 100% pure mindless evil.
It's like the ultimate in unconventional Chekov's gun, because it keeps not working, right up until the final boss of Z, finally giving a payoff for King Kai teaching Goku it at all beyond injuring Vegeta that one time.
Hey it worked against the one guy it REALLY needed to work against lol
I love how much Super Saiyan is the epitome of Toriyama's most frequent and prominent advice in storytelling: Less is more.
He just stuck his hair up and made him blonde, and this is the most iconic transformation in the entire franchise, to the point that 2 out of the 3 series' climactic finales ended with him in this form
And he did it so he wouldn't have to color in Goku's hair. Crazy lazy bastard.
@@jacks1368 Hey, don't go slandering this man like that, he did it so his assistants wouldn't have to color in Goku's hair. He was lazy, but that ain't an example
@@jacks1368 Mam really plotted out a whole transformation just cut corners. He may be lazy but he's also crafty.
That stuck up hair also become a staple in anime and manga when the character become stronger in a critical moment.
Not even of just the entire franchise. Super Saiyan might be the most iconic power-up/transformation in all of media.
I was able to keep from laughing for most of it until "Vegeta and the No-Good Very Bad Day!"
hilarious
The Namek saga or Vegeta and the Terrible, Horrible, No-Good, Very Bad Day.
That's right, you're not dealing with the average Detail Diatribe anymore!
*a la LittleKuriboh's Freeza* Oh my goooooood...
@@TitaniaBird "like a bitch."
What I liked about the super saiyan transformation is accomplished at first was it wasn't just about grief and rage, but desperation also. It wasn't just that Krillin died. It's that Goku has already given it his all to Frieza and isn't even close to stopping him, and Frieza is now killing his family and friends, and Goku knows he can't stop it, but he desperately wants to.
For Trunks, it's because he desperately wants to stop the androids, but he knows he can't. Vegeta, he's desperate to catch up to Goku and Trunks.
If it's only grief and rage, wouldn't you think Goku or Gohan could transformed earlier? Krillin died from Tamborine before, but nothing told Goku he couldn't stop Tamborine, so that desperation wasn't there. Gohan would rage boost all the time, but he would stall for Goku to clean up the mess, where Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks didn't have someone else to deal with their problems for them.
That same principle could be applied to Gohan as well. His first awakening - the one in the Time Chamber - happened because he was, to put it simply, desparate to get strong enough to protect himself and others. I mean, he literally asked Goku to basically try to kill him to get him to transform, so if that's not desperation, I don't know what is.
@@creativename1673 he couldn’t dodge
Just like Goku said: "The power come in response of a need, not a desire. You have to create that need."
The reason why a Saiyan hadn't transformed in thousands of years is because truw hatred and rage has to be born from love. If you lack meaningful connections to people you can't experience the powerful emotions from loss. Bardock was weird for having a wife and loving his children, which is why he was able to transform first. Goku, living on earth, found those connections. The half Saiyans with their human DNA and upbringing were more inclined to those feelings from the rip
This is incredibly valid.
It sort of reminds me of Super Man who also feels like he can’t count on others to fight his battles. There is no one else, it’s just him.
Random thing: it’s always bugged me that training vs talent is a main staple of dragon ball, but no amount of training ever overcame “being a Saiyan” for the humans to reach the point of being relevant to the plot.
I know everyone harps on this in some form or another but o wanted to mention it for themings sake
I know! It's absurdly annoying, especially since the best version of this concept is the xenoverse games. But even then, it's heavily assumed that you're gonna play as a Saiyan. I was playing as a majin and the npc interactions are super cool, and I wish that there was more of these types of things. "Buu was strong, but he was lazy and ate all day. You come from the same place, but train regularly. You might be my finest pupil yet." I wanna see Krillin or Tein be the absolute Chads we all know they can be.
The Saiyan is a race of talented warriors to begin with, and then they all train, so it's that they're already talented and then put training on top of that
most fucked up thing; giving the race of angry monkeys the zen state that let them reach nirvana for a minute (action without thought). ultra instinct should have been a krillin thing instead of a marketing thing.
@@comyuse9103 especially considering that Krillin is a Buddhist the entire fucking manga
@@PEARLSTOTHEPLAYERS he also made a thematic prequel to ultra instinct in his no ego transformation. there is just no genuine justification for UI going to goku instead.
For you see, Red, you're not dealing with the average prophecy narrative anymore...
Oh my gooood!!!
I feel like we've been here before. Haven't we been here before?
No, seriously, you don't know how tiring that got.
Vegeta's motivated about the destruction of his home planet, "not because he liked the other Saiyans, it's more the Prince-iple of the thing."
I see what you did there
More than a year later and
"Vegeta is actually getting skew by getting kicked into this rock,"
is still one of the funniest lines i've ever heard.
“I hope you’re prepared to hear me talk about Dragonball for 40 minutes”
At last. After all these years.
I love reds depiction of the transformation, because at that point we have seen freezer transform and other than a "this form can handle my power" mentally freezer is the same, when Goku's transforms he changes not only physically but mentally, and he isn't sure that he can control not the power but the anger needed to stay in that form. Its a shame that later SS Just becomes like a change of clothes but man its well implemented in that arc
Gohan used the transformation as a DISGUISE! To beat up HUMAN BANK ROBBERS!
I would of liked a side effect of going ssj to be it makes you lose yourself so for goku he becomes enraged blinded by it losing his purity and as shown for gohan he becomes saddistic at ssj and more sadistic at ssj 2 which explains why goku kills freeza and gohan toys with cell....at least until the end of cell games aka before the boo saga where it became a joke anyways so they can get rid of that side effect by and say they moved past those weaknesses off screen...that would of been cool ...for vegeta he becomes more cocky and egocentric and for the kids they are out of control maybe with their attacks powers and dangerous for others around them and each other making them easy to beat in battle pre fusion
This makes me feel super old. I remember when all my school friends were super hyped to see the super saiyan arrive but the dubbed episodes ended at the arrival of the Ginyu Force. When we finally got internet at home I ordered VHS fansubs of the episodes that werent available in the US yet. I told everyone at school what happened next in the story and they thought I was making it all up. Good times.
I first saw DBZ on Nicktoon's DBZ Kai version.
I was a DBZ fan without cable at home. I had to play the games to get most of the story. Or get Shonen Jump when mom could afford it.
Hah I can top all of you!... my friends where all Asian and one would get the comics and episodes sent to him on video from family in Japan a few weeks after it aired or got published, and he spoke and read Japaness perfectly and as such would translate it to me and the other guys in the group. So being a white European guy I got to read and watch Dragon Ball (and im talking about even the ones where Goku was a kid) right up to the end of the Cell saga in 'real time' and without all the crap American dub changes and edits.
Lets just say when the first dubs arrived on TV from America years latter i was NOT happy...
What an incredible legacy this man leaves. RIP
That first slide comparing the charactersto the one's from Journey to the West says "no horse tho" meaning you clearly forgot about Puar, the shapeshifting cat that never does anything. You know, like the shapeshifting dragon that normally makes itself look like a horse that never does anything.
I mean, hard to remember something that never does anything
@@ZenoDLC Decades worth of people fanboying over Boba Fett would disagree
Prince of all two Saiyans was actually a joke made in TeamFourStar’s Dragonball Z Abridged. It is pretty hilarious.
2 and half
@@rockinrom1524 He gets it.
5.5
Goku
Geets
Turles
Broly
Brolys dad
Gohan
@@Mothman1992 At this point it's.... no wait, Goku's still dead at this point so we're still at 5.5 with the other team that picked up where TFS left off.
Veggie
Broly
Paragus
Turles
Trunks
Gohan
Goten
Why didn’t He just call himself a king?
Small note: Vegeta kept talking about the "legendary" super saiyan that only once every thousand or so years appears. When Goku transformed it was implied that he was exactly that and Vegeta believed that too but once he achieved the same transformation it became clear that the myth was over exaggerated since now there are two at the same time .... until Broly gets his canon introduction as the real legendary super saiyan
Broly in DBS canon is NOT the legendary ss
They do not refer to him as such nor are his transformations called that
His form with green hair in the movie is known as : Super Saiyan full power
@@edwardmyers9492 and harkens more back to the oozaru transformation being hones internally without transforming into a monkey.
As of now; theres still no named character canon legendary super saiyan.
@@edwardmyers9492 Except that Caulifa as what we know is really Legendary Super Saiyan is directly called out by Goku and Vegeta to be what the original legend was referring to. Doesn't matter what the new marketing tells us, we all know what that form is really called. Especially because we already have a full power Super Saiyan, it's what Goku and Gohan achieved for the Cell Games.
@@justinalicea1590
Broly's form in dbs is called super saiyan : full power not full power super saiyan(or ss grade 4) that is a completely different thing
Goku and vegeta never refers to kale as "legendary super saiyan" all they say is that the true form of super saiyan
Whatever the "new marketing" calls it that is what it is
Idk why this concept is so hard to grasp
@@edwardmyers9492 that's super Saiyan grade 4
Something worth noting is that when Goku goes Super Saiyan, his normally round and open eyes become closed and harsh like Vegeta's. Also in the manga characters who are "evil" speak with angular speech bubbles rather than round ones. Super Saiyan Goku has angular speech bubbles, further conflating the idea that something's not right with Goku. The anime achieves this effect by having Nozawa or Schemmel speaking in a more intense voice during the duration of the form.
Arguably, this is exactly what made Dragon Ball Z a cultural phenomenon. Children's media really didn't have that kind of foreshadowing and character development beforehand. It's kind of insane how much children's media globally owes to the Namek/Frieza sagas.
Besides the 4 years of Batman The Animated Series and the 2 years of Spider-Man The Animated Series that happened before DBZ got localised for the west.
No it's solely just because of the fighting was really good unlike anyting in Western animation Dragon Balls the worst example when it comes to story and characters. Also due to the fact that since it was finished airing in Japan by the time it came to America they could show new episode daily so the viewers wouldn't be annoyed by the pacing.
I've come back to add that Gargoyles also premiered 2 years before DBZ
@@sebastienvondoom8615 There wasn't a lot of continuity between episodes in Batman and SpiderMan animated series. There was a mild sense of it with some things, but that was generally limited to two part stories. I suspect it's cuz they had a hard time convincing the bosses that kids can handle complex narratives and character building instead of having everything start over at the beginning of every episode.
Even Toonami really struggled to actually show DBZ in order - they kept skipping around in the series. It wasn't until I was old enough to actually go out and buy the manga and DvDs that I was able to fully put the entire thing together in order in my head.
I remember at least twice when we got up to the final episode in the Cell Saga and they would cut and go to the beginning of the Namek Saga - it was so frustrating!
@@SadisticSenpai61 I mean, BTAS sure, but Spider-Man absolutely had an overarching continuity throughout its episodes, as did Gargoyles.
I think at the point it became a joke was at the buu saga. Before that at least everyone had a moment of pain/rage that boosted them into it, be it trunks finding Gohan's dead body and breaking down or Vegeta punching the ground with all his rage and frustration. Gohan's was a little less impactful but then he actually let all his rage out when 16 died and went full ballistic on cell and his kids.
Then Goten and Kid Trunks just casually super saiyan cause why not, then Gohan's unique Wrathful SSJ is just something both Goku and Vegeta can do to and then Goku goes ssj3, which while badass is just dumb.
True. But I think all that dumb evolutions made the end of the Buu arc more... satisfying to me? Stripped of all the effectiveness and energy for all of those new forms, in the end, Goku beats Buu in both base form and SSJ form with a Genki Dama (the ability he's had since his first fight with Geets) made with everyone's energy on Earth, and Buu is blown away. I dunno, being forced to fight such a powerful enemy with such "primitive" forms and abilities at this point feels like catching a legendary Pokémon with a normal Pokéball, or Yami Yugi beating an enemy with Kuriboh. There's just something charming about a circle ending to me, I guess?
Personally, I feel it's safe to say the Super Saiyan transformation is a form with a prerequisite that most Saiyans naturally meet by the time DBZ ended. In the case of Trunks and Goten, both of them had fathers who had the potential by the time each of them was born (or had already attained). The Universe 6 Saiyans also possessing the level of power necessary to awaken the transformation on its own is also significant. It avoids the idea that the Super Saiyan transformation is a special, Chosen One-Esque power only possessed of certain bloodlines by indicating that any Saiyan able to reach the prerequisite level of power is able to attain it.
This is also considering the Legendary Super Saiyan forms used by Kale, Kefla, and Broly. By the time they show up in the Super timeline, while Broly's power did allow him to completely overwhelm most opponents, Goku and Vegeta specifically have developed to a point where they possess techniques that can allow them to match and surpass the Legendary forms.
The worst part is that you could make the whole buu saga work seamlessly by striping every super saiyan of one level. Think about it : the plot revolves about Babidi looking for a powerful warrior to resurrect Buu, and Kaioshin looking for a way to prevent that. Then, for the second half of the arc, you need Gohan to use the super duper strong power up only he can use to make a difference.
Now hear me out, but what if instead of having Goku and Vegeta be able to go ssj2 like it's nothing they just... trained and became stronger as ssj1. Not as strong as a super saiyan 2, but they still are stronger than anything else in the universe at that point. The story works like usual, Buu revives and defeats Vegeta, Gohan is missing and is unable to go ssj2 because of his lack of training, but surprise, Goku is able to do it! Using the power of ssj2, he handles Buu for a while and his time on earth is still cut short like ssj3 did in the original. Then you have Gotenks, who still is comically strong compared to how he should be at his age, but he's still weaker than Buu and without the fusion the kids aren't enough to win. That's when Gohan comes back on earth, shining with the sparkling glow of the power only he could handle, the level above and beyond the legendary super saiyan.
This would have made the story just as engaging with virtually no difference to the plot, and it would have avoided the ridiculousness of ssj3 and mystic Gohan.
As a lifetime fan of DB up until Super, even with the characters I do like from that series, yeah basically being a fan of this stuff is an exercise in masochism for people that like things to make sense.
Like ok how the heck did Dr
Gero make cyborgs stronger than Frieza when he had no data on him, and even the Future Androids from timeline 2 were supposedly weaker... doesn't heckin TRACK.
When I saw that this was a 1-hour long video of DBZ, I really didn't want to watch it.
But when I started hearing the commentary, I genuinely enjoyed their charismatic voices,
and just the way she explained the plot like a friend who watches too much anime, just having fun explaining their favorite show to another human being who will listen.
This was very entertaining. Congrats.
27:37 It's worth noting that in the Japanese version, Kaio has the same voice actor as the narrator, and has more of a wise grandfatherly vibe to him, compared to Sean Schemmel in the dub doing his best to sound as cartoonishly obnoxious as possible.
I love how there are people that can actually see the well written moments in dragon ball. People today just take it for granted and downgrades everything that happens in dbz because its iconic and popular
I think rather than it being iconic and popular, the reason it is thought less is because DBZ cheapens EVERY LAST GOOD BIT OF WRITING they do with trivializing and repeating character arcs over and over.
@@guillermorelobalopez7553 What got me was selling Gohan as the successor... and then immediately throwing that all under the bus because people liked Goku too much. I mean, on the one hand I get it because Gohan didn't come off "as driven" as Goku was to fight and push his limits...
... but come on, that was a good moment. And now I have to see more and more realizing that arc just wasn't as much fun as it could have been with the payoff removed.
@@kereminde no it’s just toriyama thought gohan wouldn’t make a good main character then goku
@@Skölly-b6h Yes. That's what happens when you don't develop a character. They're not interesting.
... so much I like and hate about DBZ is in how it wound up being central to a couple characters and anyone else? Pfft, get them out of here they're not the Saiyans, er, main characters.
Hot take...Db was better than z and the boo saga is the most entertaining saga of z to read in the manga by far....
Unless you're Goten and this-timeline Trunks, the initial transformation seems to require what even Goku himself called "the pain of loss". Goku loses Krillin, Future Trunks loses Gohan, this-timeline Gohan loses his innocence, because he knows that, if he can't defend himself, it'll be his fault when/if everyone dies defending him, and for Vegeta...the whole thing with the meteor shower, I think he lost the sense of who he really was, which was a guy who had to be perfect at all costs and at all times. When he realized that he WASN'T that, and COULDN'T be that, he lost an integral part of what he thought made him who he was, so bam, snap. Am I missing anyone?
Goten and modern Trunks. They probably lost a toy train or something.
I appreciate you were aware of how little of importance Android 16 actually meant to Gohan that Gohan losing is innocence is so much more of a powerful considering all the shit that Gohan had to deal with despite being a kid.
For what it's worth, Vegeta's transformation is technically filler. In the manga it's never explained how or when he learned how. The first time we see it is when he just does it facing 19.
And then you have Dragon Ball Super and the ability to unlock Super Saiyan literally becomes "tickle this part of your back with energy until your hair changes."
I'm paraphrasing, but it really does get THAT simplified when they try to teach it to a tribe of Saiyans from another Universe.
@@zerobudgetgamer nah, you’re not paraphrasing. Your actually adding the “with energy” bit. The training of the alt-universe Saiyan training is such an anticlimax version of super saiyan.
"most people don't remember Nappa"
But he is hilarious and we quote everything he says!
Dont dis ghost nappa :P
Well, Abridged Nappa anyway.
You're thinking of Mr Perfect Cell
@@michaeldaniels642 Or perhaps Super Kami Guru.
God damn it Nappa
I feel you, Blue. Sporadically watching DBZ not only didn't prepare me for the constant whiplash incurred from watching the King Piccolo arc in the original series, it made some bits MORE whiplash-y as the exact opposite thing I expected to happen would end up happening, which my best friend found very funny.
"How did you not know Piccolo and Piccolo Junior are different people?!"
"Well, no one calls him Piccolo Junior, do they?! They call him Piccolo!"