Check out the Open Civil War and Warzones mods. They add a lot of spawnpoints for Stormcloaks and Imperials to fight each other. Plus a ton of other faction skirmishes (Forsworn, rogue mages, etc)
As far as skirmishes in the world? I think that’s 2011 gameplay limitations, not an actual fault on the game. Otherwise, you do get the feeling through in-game dialogue from characters of all kinds, it’s interesting how whether it’s a blacksmith, war general or the leaders themselves, you can talk to them and hear their perspective, it makes it feel like a real conflict with real people.
Huh, really? I have the exact opposite impression. NPCs talk about the civil war as well as how it's impacting them and Skyrim as a whole nonstop. The first decision you have to make in the game is who to go with through Helgen Keep. The biggest visual consequence of the game is the permanent damage caused to Whiterun. It felt like it was far more central to the world and even the game story than the actual main quest.
@@GarlicPuddingyeah I have some kind of skirmish so that is very common to see in the distance a group of 30 or so imperials and stormcloaks having at each other. Usually what happens is only a 2-4 survive and go their own way. That’s how Bethesda should have handled it
At this point, all I want in ES6, is 3 NCP's named Scott, Michea,l and Drew, who sit in a Tavern all day and debate Tameielic history. you guys, as well as other RUclipsr, like Camelworks, MXR, and Imperial Knowledge have helped kept the fanbase alive for years, and I think it's only right that Bethesda honors you guys with at least a shoutout in the next game.
God I forget how much Ulfric practically begs Rikke to go away and leave Tullius. The Civil War could have been so much more nuanced seeing moments like that survive development.
Ulfric is being heavily influenced by Galmar Stone-Fist, I believe he convinced Ulfric to kill Torygg. The first time you enter palace of the kings Ulfric is hesitant on what to do with Whiterun and Balgruuf and ultimately decides to try a more diplomatic approach but Galmar is insisting violence right of the bat and encourages Ulfric to kill him. The way Ulfric is acting here isn't like someone that would kill a king when he had other options. Most of their interactions Galmar's first impulse is to fight and gets exited before civil battles while Ulfric comes off as he doesn't seem to actually want to fight until he feels it's necessary. It looks like Galmar is a warmonger that usually gets his way. In the end they are Ulfric's choices but I believe Galmar had a huge role to play in starting the war.
Oooh, good catch. I've always thought that a sensible Dragonborn could successfully advocate to Ulfric on behalf of non-Nords living in Skyrim after the events of the game, and while I definitely didn't notice this consciously I wonder if it's part of why I get that feeling
I believe that is also why Galmar's brother is shown strutting around drunk yelling at Dark Elves. Across the river Ulfric's father welcomed the Dark Elves with no expectations when they escaped the red mountain. Ulfric's father seemed a like a kinder and more gentle Jarl.
Galmar is the main reason I'll never do a stormcloak run. Dude is stupid af and wants to kill his own countrymen if they don't join immediately. The thalmor love him because he's a prime target for something like reverse psychology.
The craziest thing about this is that people can see and understand all of this deep subtext in a game but are absolutely incapable of doing the same in real life.
THANK YOU for clarifying the definition of "asset" as used in the Thalmor dossier. All these years and that is still the most common misconception I see in these discussions.
Imperials somehow get brainwashing and sleeper agent from uncooperative asset they always do this goes to show they can’t read dossiers or they think lying strengthens their cause 😂
I feel like we need A Skyrim Modlist from Fudge Muppet because this whole video is gorgeous and I love curtain details like Irelith wearing Dunmerian armor.
@@somberflight A lot of the armors are NordWarUA mods but the armor general tullius uses is Titus Mede I armor which gives you the option to have it be general tullius’ armor when you install it. I’ve been researching. 😅
This video made me realize why Ulfric is so against Elenwen's participation in peace talks in the quest: Season Unending. She's not just the chief of their inquisition squad, she's the person who tortured him in his youth during the great war, and the one who (probably) planted the idea it was his fault that the imperial city had fallen. It's like bringing a still-abusive ex into a therapy session. Tulus has the balls to call out Ulfric about 'good faith' multiple times but then brings that nightmare as an official representative. Also, considering this context, and other events Ulfric views himself as a failure for (not being there for his father's death while stuck in jail/that whole deal in Markarth), I can understand why he feels like 'I fight so that all the fighting that's already been done has not been for nothing'. He speaks both generally about the Nords/Skyrim and himself personally. Dude NEEDS a win, and this may be his last chance.
"It's like bringing a still-abusive ex into a therapy session." This right here. Another analogy is like going to the bathroom for a huge Taco Bell steamer, then trying to shove it right back where it came from. Imperial or Stormcloak, the common denominator is that Elenwen is a Thalmor THOT who has no business in ANY negotiation. Might as well invite a terrorist to a peace conference.
Tullius should have brought Ulfric before the Emperor, instead of Helgen, as was the original terms of surrender. I am beginning to believe that Tullius is the true Thalmor asset.
@@Czah5 All throughout Skyrim, the Empire seems to have a blatant disregard for their own laws and honorable conduct. Heck, they sentence your character to the headsman's axe despite having no evidence against you. And Tullius doesn't even reprimand the captain for going against protocol. The Empire that Talos founded, which was also blessed by Akatosh, died the day Martin Septim sacrificed himself. The current empire is nothing more than a bunch of politicians and warlords scheming and plotting against each other. And an empire that can't protect its provinces is not fit to rule. The White Gold Concordat was an insult to every nation that supported the Empire, as the Imperials immediately surrendered the moment their city was threatened, but are more than willing to throw every other nation into a meat grinder.
Honestly I agree with you. The Civil War questline may be underwhelming to play, but there's enough meat for players to spend a decade debating on. And that balance of two viable sides to argue for it's worth praising as far as writing goes.
Not really, it's just that Skyrim players are lobotomized troglodytes that don't understand the English language so they read 'asset' and their brains melt to sludge. Beyond that there's no debate to have about the civil war, either side you pick is a good choice because the worst outcome is the war dragging on. If the Empire wins they still have Skyrim as well as its manpower if the Empire loses it doesn't have to garrison Skyrim which frees up their soldiers in the province, that's it. The writing itself is non existent
@@BremsOfSlorage bait much? I stopped playing Skyrim for about 4 years because of rerelease after rerelease, a lot of players feel the same way, so trying to get a lore dump is fine as long as someone does the research right. Also the reason why I'm calling you out for rage bait is calling people lobotomized isn't a good argument bud.
@@BremsOfSlo This 100 percent, They read the first few words and think the case is closed conveniently ignoring the part where it says a stormcloak victory is to be avoided and that he is uncooperative
Hearing you say "asset does NOT mean someone affiliated with the group" has just set to bed the demons raging in my head for the past 13 years at people who don't understand how intrigue works. people actually thought the big racist man worked with the thalmor with no other context clues but a bad definition of the word asset. thank you.
It's hard to avoid modern comparison, but the fact is that Ulfric acts in the better interests of the Thalmor, whether he means to or not. Removing him is bad for the Thalmor. He may not be a traitor, but he is a fool with power, and the cunning villains among the Thalmor can easily turn that into an asset.
@@kevinczaractual from the elves' perspective, he's breaking up the power structure yada yada you know why this is good for them - but really, is it? is it really an advantage for them to have nations independent of resource drain from an empire but united in their hatred of the dominion? i don't think it is. i think the empire is much weaker in it's clinging pretend state, like the byzantines were, than independent but allied former imperial nations, like the crusader states were. removing him ensures the dominion continues to wash over leaderless rebels instead of united enemies. you are, simply, wrong.
A sovereign Skyrim allied with an independent Hammerfell seems very likely, the aftermath of the Great War left both in a similar position and both have a strong warrior culture. The Empire is also gearing up for war. This would force the Dominion to fight multiple fronts, it's possible Valenwood may revolt since it was conquered by the Dominion.
I often wondered if several independent nations would fair better than a crumbling empire in decline. Obviously, Skyrim has many legitimate grievances with how the empire is treating them. The only way I could really see the empire recovering is if it got a new extremely powerful emperor, like the dragonborn. Either way I would think that if an ES6 occurs on the continent of tamriel it should encompass the second great war.
@@Duranous. Hopefully ES6 doesn’t follow the trend of taking place several several centuries in the future, where all we can do to learn about the aftermath of Skyrim is some books here and there. If it’s NOT mostly about the second Great War, I’m wondering if it’s even worth playing.
I'm terrified for TES6, like I really hope they do the fans justice and take into account all the lore, philosophy and politics? ...But I'm scared that Bethesda will ignore their own rich lore in order to _'Avoid making current-year-applicable political commentary'_ or something weak like that...
@Duranous. That's essentially what I see as the proper outcome, and why I seriously dislike how dumb and limited the choices are in the civil war quest. The Dragonborn has the demi-god-like power and public influence to single-handedly stop the civil war by assuming control of the Empire, now that Mede II is dead, rebuild the Empire and form an alliance with Hammerfell, Skyrim, and any other province that is sick of the Aldmeri Dominion (at least Valenwood, but the Khajiit and Argonians have gotten the Altmer shaft as well). This combined 'Non Altmer Tamrielic Organization' would be a force to be reckoned with.
@pfarnsworth84 The funny part is that, from a lore perspective, the Dragonborn doesn't need an army to fight off the Altmer. He could simply speak their destruction into existence without hesitation 😅.
The debate almost reminded me of Lawful vs Chaotic Alignments in D&D. Lawful Alignments tend to care more about order and structure, where as Chaotic Alignments tend to care more about freedom and self determination. Both have their benefits, and their downsides, and they are considered to be separate from Good vs Evil.
oh man.. THOSE discussions were headache inducing because everyone had some serious issues about defining what it meant to be lawful or chaotic. Some real gems out there for people adamant that "following their moral code" was *lawful* because of their adhering to the rules of the code... just ignoring entirely if that code was something that was acceptable among the greater society
@bartofii I would argue that societal expectations have little to do with that. Especially because what is considered normal/justified changes over time or changes from society to society.
@@garrettlaturski6703 I personally grew to view law/chaos as order/disorder and how one acts in a society with differing degrees of enforcement to impose or depose the order. As such one's actions might be "chaotic" in certain context if they are acting openly against the standard set. the issue was when people instead viewed lawful as "following rules" and then mental gymnastic'd their way to viewing a moral code as a self imposed rule that can then make someone lawful if they follow it while ignoring the context of how those actions take place with respect to the society around them... like arguing batman is lawful when going around as a vigilante, breaking into homes/facilities, trespassing, assaulting... well breaking a host of laws in trying to seek out justice in Gotham, but still adheres to his avoidance of killing or showing restraint.
I see self-imposed rules as almost the embodiment of law. You are choosing to build your own structure and follow through with it, so long as you actually remain consistent. That's what something like the Oath of Vengeance is. Don't take these replies as an argument. I am not saying you're wrong, I'm just passionate about my own opinions, and like discussing them.
I think they will include high rock. I don’t think hammer fell alone would please everyone. Hammer fell is a huge desert and I don’t think fantasy fans would be happy with that . If they included high rock it would please everyone I think. That’s the reason why we haven’t seen a game that includes black marsh or elsewhere.
@@Devon.455 Nah, we definitely only gonna get the entirety of Hammerfell with some special areas. Everyone thought that Skyrim will be just covered in snow
Put around 600 hours into Skyrim in 2011 and played very little with creation club, finally decided to give it another play through now that I’m older and can really conceptualize the story, this video is so so good and really gives me another level of immersion for this play through
Vladimir Kulich. He has a very recognisable voice. The 13th Warrior was one of my favourite films as a kid and hearing him in Skyrim was a real omg moment lol
We will just have to wait and see what ES6 holds. I have hope that it will be good, with the amount of time it's taken, but if it isn't I will not be too surprised.
I always thought it would've been cool if, regardless of which side you chose, there would've been Thalmor agents showing up to directly interfere with the dragonborn trying to end the civil war
GET OUT OF MY WALLS!!! I just started a new survival character on legendary with some civil war mods trying to be a merchantile character to get immersed, JUST hopped off and less the 30 minutes ago you posted this. Bravo amazing timing I'm scared
The sticking point I keep coming to with Ulfric is when he chooses to be ideological vs when he chooses to be pragmatic. It would have been no less traditional or honorable to have a conversation with Torygg, but instead he put him and by extension the entire capitol city into a carefully calculated no-win situation that, while in keeping with Nord traditions, is also the sort of political machination more characteristic of Boethia than Talos. He's capable of both pragmatism and idealism, but he seems to pick and choose on the basis of what's more glorious for him, rather than what's best for the ordinary citizens, or even what would make things worse for the Thalmor.
Good point. I think it's because of this: For Ulfrick it's essential to boast himself to show that he can be the high king, the true nord. That's why he has to put himself in the spotlight always. He thinks that being the manlies nord is the true way to be a good high king for your people. That's also what I dislike about him. He is the personification of "we only need a strong leader and all will be good"
@itsQuintcy absolutely. It's frustrating because we know he can be pragmatic, but when we see him choosing between actually making things better for the people of Skyrim (or sometimes specifically Windhelm) or becoming more glorious (or otherwise closer to whatever ideal he has in his head), he'll pick the second option. And to be fair maybe that's because he thinks that if he becomes an ideal king his peoples' problems will just magically be resolved, lots of leaders have fallen for that kind of thinking and it doesn't make them evil. But it DOES make them incorrect and less likely to actually be good for their citizens.
@CatHasOpinions734 yes I totally agree on the citizen part. Ulfrick is that kind of guy who creates this glorified personality cult around him. He gathers all the people that have hatred for the talmor, the whole white-gold concordat and all Talos fans. Then he proceeds to buy into this problem around who is the high king at the current moment and tells some ideological fiction about freeing Skyrim by having a true son of Skyrim on the throne. The killing of high king Torygg and this calculated no-win made him the senter piece in what many conservative nords in Skyrim already wanted to believe. Let's say he "frees" Skyrim. Now they are basically at war with the Altmeri Dominion and the Empire.
Important notes on random things: Talos actually has a totally reasonable and non-conflicting explanation behind his racial identity. He's thought of as an Imperial, but the Imperial race(s?) of Colovia and Nibenay are known to include ancient Nordic blood. The mention of "men of Kreath" as Ayleid slaves confirms this at the least, along with intermeixing throughout centuries of good relations. Typical Nord and Imperial people are racially so close, even assuming a racist pair of people you'd get intermarrying a lot. He's described as being short and has been called "manmer" suggesting Breton lineage, but we also know for sure that his original name was Hjalti Early-Beard (Ysmir is a title also shared by Wulfharth he later becomes part of the Talos being and also by the Dragonborn in TES V and other unknown characters likely had it). Based on all of this, and the fact that a person can inherit racial traits from a father but is usually the race of the mother overall, one could safely say Hjalti was a Skyrim-born Nordic man with Breton blood possibly related to the ancient Nord invasion of High Rock and the potential of average Imperial blood but in total was a Nord. A Nord with some mixed blood, making it fitting that he became the spirit of human undertaking. Chim-el Adabal is not actually the name of the Amulet of Kings, rather it's the name of the red diamond which holds all its magic. Red because it's magically infused blood from Lorkhan, which absorbed Aetherial power from an Ayleid well and was further enhanced by Akatosh's influence. This does not directly conflict with ebony being Lorkhan's blood because that could be the result of his normal blood 'drying' in a metaphysical sense and when his heart formed Red Mountain it likely spread through incredibly deep underground movements by means of magma flows, explaining the incredible magical power of such magma as seen with the Aetherium Forge. Titus Mede II knew he would be assassinated, and there's evidence he may have partially orchestrated it himself, although not totally confirmed. We also have some confirmation that a replacement emperor immediately sits the throne, because the characters in places still refer to one, and the detail was even put in place that Tullius administering the oath to the Dragonborn slight adjusts his words to reflect the death of Titus. This probably means that his son, a man who would most likely be in his forties, inherited his throne.
@@anyashindler3781 He's also quite comfortable with letting Argonians live like abused slaves, letting the Dunmer in his city live in a trash heap that guards barely pay attention to, and is very irrational in thinking Skyrim would stand any chance against the Dominion without help. Considering his forces would have almost no mages if they had any at all, and one talented wizard could burn or electrocute a whole column of Stormcloaks in the right situation, he's clearly a bit crazy on top of the reality of how bad he'd be as a ruler. We already have an example of how bad he is at running one city, so running all of Skyrim he'd make it a bad place.
@@UnswimmingFishYTthe Argonians aren’t let into the city for the safety of themselves and the Dunmer. The Dunmer constantly enslaved the Argonians through out all of Tamriels history. Black Marsh invaded Morrowind shortly after the eruption of Red Mountain, slaughtering countless Dunmer. Ulfric is trying to keep the peace as best he can in his city walls. It’s an unfortunate circumstance but it’s something that is best for both of them. Windhelm was also the only city in the province to let in Dunmer refugees after the eruption and continues to welcome Dunmer still immigrating from Morrowind. Again the only city in Skyrim that lends a helping hand to their eastern neighbors. The state of the Grey Quarter can be justified in a multitude of ways. The general state of Windhelm isn’t great. Hell the state of the entire province isn’t great considering Skyrim, and all of Tamriel for that matter, currently exists in a post apocalyptic state. The Oblivion Crisis coupled with The Great War and The Red Year gutted the continent essentially bringing every province to its knees. Skyrim could hold off the Thalmor just fine. Hammerfell held them off by themselves with no outside help, a province with a similar warrior culture like Skyrim. To assume Skyrim wouldn’t ally with the remaining imperial nations is just wrong. High Rock would likely send forces, as well as Cyrodill, and possibly Hammerfell. The Great War isn’t as surface level as the Empire versus the Aldmeri Dominion. It’s a race war, Men versus Mer so it’s very likely the races of Man would unite against the races of Mer even if the empire exists in a fractured state.
Dunmer refuse to assimilate and work with other races thats why they're so poor. And argonians not being allowed inside makes perfect sense considering all the inevitable lizard on knifeear violence @UnswimmingFishYT
White-Gold Concordat is one of those things that bother me immensely every time I get reminded of it. AFAIK there is no precedent in real life history where a smaller state invades a larger state, after initial successes gets defeated in a pitched battle and then still managed to get the larger state to sign a peace treaty where it accepts its terms in their entirety. All the examples I can think of where a smaller state invaded a larger state successfully it usually relied on either a support of another large state (ex: Prussia during Severn Years War) or it waged a campaign of decisive victories, never giving the larger state to get its shit together (ex: England during Hundred Years War) or the large state was undergoing a civil war (ex: Sweden during Thirty Years War). By every metric Aldmeri Dominion shouldn't have the resources of the Empire. It has 3 provinces to Empire's 4. Empire's provinces are all Men and have been together for almost 600 years, so there is a sense of unity, whereas Aldmeri Dominion is a Altmer supremacist state that has relatively recently conquered Valenwood and Elsewyr. Empire's armies are populated by recruits from all 4 provinces (we've seen this in games) while I simply can't imagine Khajit serving in Dominion's armies. And this is assuming that all provinces have equal populations, where most likely case is that Cyrodil aloone had higher population than the entire Dominion, before the war. So when the Empire finally stopped the Aldmeri Dominion, supposedly completely crushing their army, WHY THE FUCK DID IT LITERALLY ACCEPT ALL OF DOMINION'S TERMS WHAT THE FUCK?! Literally every nation in human history would've continued the war and counter attacked, potentially even counter invaded Dominion. This is literally like if in our real history Great War, in 1914, the French stopped the Germans at the Somme and then immediately accepted a peace treaty where they let them have Belgium and give up any right to Alsace-Loraine forever.
The aldmeri dominion had a artifact that allowed them to instantly know the position of the enemy army which was advantages They may have fewer soldiers but they are far more experienced with generals needing centuries of experience to even qualify for promotion As for counter invasion Tiber septim himself with a united Tamriel needed the numidium to conquer summerset a empire without him or the numidium wouldn’t stand a chance
@@planetofthegames2843 the guy so hated; he participated in stolen valour (claimed he fought at the battle of the Red Ring but was actually the Forgotten Hero) lost Hammerfell, lost half of Skyrim and was assassinated by his own Elder Council. Yeah, dude has a legacy of failure
I agree with this. But people argue that the guy with the list is kind to you and Ulfric/the Stormcloaks are just a bunch of racists so that's enough reason to join the Legion even though you'd be dead if Alduin hadn't interfered.
One thing I don't see discussed a bunch which was kinda indirectly talked about here is that its very possible to be pro-independence without liking Ulfric. Personally I do pretty solidly prefer the Empire, but the Stormcloak side is full of people like Jarls Dengeir or Laila who have their misgivings about Ulfric personally but ultimately decide independence is worth empowering him. He definitely dominates the discussion, and understandably so, but in the end he isn't immortal or particularly young. Is that much consolation to the dunmer and argonians of Windhelm? No not particularly, but it is a part of looking at the conflict holistically. Another interesting idea is looking at the rebellion as something along the lines of a mercy killing or escaping a sinking ship. Like the video gets into even after everything that's torn the Empire apart its likely an anti-Thalmor alliance still forms from its pieces. So I could see an argument made that the Empire as it exists now is weaker than the sum of its parts as evidenced by their loss to the Dominion in the Great War and that an alliance of equals in its place wouldn't have the same points of failure that a united Empire would. Its does make sense that the Emperor in the Imperial City would sue for peace when that city was just barely defended. It was in fact, arguably the only acceptable course of action. However we see with the continued war in Hammerfell that just because Cyrodiil wasn't able to continue fighting doesnt mean the other provinces didn't have some gas left in the tank. Through this lens the Stormcloak Rebellion, if won quickly, uses the reprieve of the white-gold concordat to speed up the dissolution of the Empire in order to allow time for the now autonomous realms of men to reorganize and recuperate in a more durable form than they could have under a single emperor. I don't know that I completely agree with that reasoning and have enough grievances with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks at large to oppose them regardless, but I do think it gets treated as a foregone conclusion far too readily that a united Empire is necessarily better suited to fighting the Dominion.
I completely agree that a united Empire is weaker than the sum of its parts. Hammerfell drove the AD out and are still independent. That is what sticks in the craw of the Empire. If the Empire couldn't win when they had the belief of Talos uniting them, what will motivate them after 3 decades of heresy? There are children who are born and grown to adulthood with no knowledge of Talos. The Empire only seeks its own continuance, but it has no justification. Because it lost the war, because it signed the WG Concordant, it has abdicated its position as the defender of mankind. Because Hammerfell persists, because Skyrim is willing to fight, they show that the races and realms of men are stronger than the Empire. I'd argue that a nation of Cyrodil would also regain its vigor. The Empire became decadent and complacent. That is why they lost to the Thalmor. The fanaticism of the Thalmor needs to be matched by willing men and hardy. The Empire is similar to the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was considered the Universal Empire, under God and ordained by God. When it fell, it was because it couldn't get its armies to defend it. And in its place came new kingdoms, with vigor, who learned and took from the Roman Empire, but had the will to live and fight.
@@shorewall Hammerfell did not ''drive the AD out'' - it struggled for five years to fight them to a standstill. It is canon that the entire Empire would've fallen without the Concordat. Also, Rome fell because it got fucked on all sides. It was literally located in Anatolia - a crossroads. They had the Catholic Kingdoms who fucked them from the west, and the Turks from the East. That comparison falls flat.
Ulfrics successor will likely be just like him due to the way the moot works And the stormcloak are framed for the assination of the emperor there is a good chance that destroys any chance of alliance between the two groups
@@dutchpatriot17the roman empire did not fall because one tenth of it was located in anatolia. In fact, the part of the Empire that was in anatolia, the Eastern Roman Empire, survived for a thousand more years after the fall of rome. A comparison between Rome and The Empire is absolutely justified, this is literally who they are based on.
@@fantamannen The Eastern Romams fell because it got fucked from all sides. The Western Romans fell because its leaders were corrupt and couldn't pay off invading German tribes anymore. The comparison with the Third Empire falls flat.
IMO the empire should just let skyrim seperate and then broker a mutual defence treaty (skyrim, cyrodiil, highrock, and hammerfell). Skyrim will be independent and cyrodill won't lose precious resorces on quelling the rebellions. The thalmor may try to make the empire fall, but if the empire's former territories stand with it against the thalmor anyways, then their scheming wont matter. Hammerfell has shown that the elves can be defeated. The Thalmor are not as strong as they want you to believe
@@shorewall High Rock is still with the Empire. If Skyrim is gone how will the Empire function as a state if it's split? Anvil is useless due to the Dominion, going through the Topal bay would be considered dangerous due to Red Mountain, the Stormcloaks or the Dominion.
This video truly shows how the Civil War storyline could've been amazing. They had all the building blocks already there. When you listen to all the conversations between the military leaders after each quest, it shows great attention to detail and potential for conflict. All the characters were well developed, they had already worked on sieges, camps, politics, etc... Only thing is, the actual gameplay was trash, just go from one fort to the next, on and on. But it could've been so much better. Just look at the quest in High Hrothgar and the infiltration of the Thalmor Embassy. Those main story line quests show how great the Civil War could've been if given the same level of attention, resources and care. It's just a shame.
The worst part is that there are tons of unused files and scripts that show that the civil war was meant to be substantially more engaging. Each hold city having an invasion and defense mission depending on what side you chose, more detailed fort battles, and unused semi-cutscene moments of certain seemingly do-nothing NPCs engaging in post-battle outcomes (the Thalmor at Markarth have an unused scene where Galmar executes them) have had modders restore the content and become immensely disappointed in the version we ultimately got. And the worst part is that there are small crumbs of that content in the main game which are regarded as the best civil war content for obvious reasons. The corresponding ONE fort battle led by Ralof or Hadvar infiltrating said fort for additional reinforcements from within was the only surviving, more detailed intent of the fort battles having other objectives rather than "run in and kill off waves until they stop". The various encamped Imperial Officer and Stormcloak Officer characters were likely meant to be boss fights, hence why they all have Essential tags despite not being used in anything whatsoever (seriously, they don't even occupy taken forts. Wtf is the point of most of them?).
How awesome would it be for the Redguards and Nords to join forces, even picking up the Dunmer (who hate the Altmer also), and begin a massive conquest to push those filthy Thalmor back to their little island in the South.
@@andynorth1776 this is one of the favourite potential stories I wanted told, with the Empire gone, Hammerfell reaches out to negotiate an alliance with Skyrim, and because of what the Dragonborn dose for the people of Solstheim, House Redoran and surprisingly House Telvanni are willing to throw their lot in to crate a new pact against the Dominion, Helgen can be re-taken and rebuilt as a trade hub since Helgen is between Falkreath and the Rift which are the closest to Hammerfell and Morrowind respectively, the borders between the provinces are open so we can advancer to places like Blacklight were you can stop a group of Argonian priest under the control of the An-Xileel harassing shipping routs and maybe broker a peace between them and have Black-March join this new alliance, or to Elinhir were you help the Crowns and the Forebears settle their differences once and for all so they can finally dive the Thalmor from Hammerfell.
Its mentioned the empire isnt utilising all its resources to fight the stormcloaks, which means its totally possible the war hardly crippled the empire in the event of a stormcloak victory, and that a possibility of a later team up is still there. How many imperials died, lore accurately in the event of a stormcloak victory do you think?
@@mutegrab666 that is basically confirmed in the game. I think it is Legate Rikke who mentions they mostly rely on native Nords to fill their ranks, rather than soldiers from the empire.
If the stormcloak ending is cannon the post game starts with imperial legions marching in to bring order and crushing the fledgling state which probably ignites a new great war
The majority of losses are skyrim citizens, the imperials are losing maybe a 10th or 5th of their forces even if every single imperial soldier dies in skyrim, most of the men there are skyrim citizens raised for stormcloak or imperial cause.
@@danielsantiago3273unlikely, the stormcloaks winning means a united skyrim, the empire would have to use the majority if not all of their legions to beat it, legions don't just magic themselves all the way across the world, if they could than skyrim would be easy to put down. What you see now is local militias, jarl troops, and levies of half of skyrim fighting half of skyrim and a legions or two of imperial troops. With a united skyrim they could raise a full proper army, and the empire would struggle to get through chokepoints to fight skyrim, that is why they can't send reinforcements right now cause of a storm blocking way or something if memory serves. If the empire fights skyrim, it means the death of the empire, they know it, skyrim knows it, the thalmor knows it. The blind and deaf even know it. The empire isn't capable of sparing more than a token force without risking half of the empire being overrun.
Ulfric running off to fight in the Great War because he "couldn't stand to miss it" is the behavior of a VERY young man. I would assume that, like many monastic orders in our world, Ulfric would have been chosen and taken to High Hrothgar by 5 or 6. This makes him 15 or 16 at the time he runs off to fight in the war, making his actions make MUCH more sense. It is not impossible he was older, but it is just much less likely.
Even though Balgruuf would be the most sensible, and he's a good ruler, he's a bit of a fencesitter. The reason why he's not an option is because he might not help anyone in the end, since it's difficult to please both people who want to live in relative peace (at first), under oppression by the Thalmor, and people who want freedom against near impossible odds. Ideally though, now that I think about it, Balgruuf would be excellent in uniting Skyrim and joining the Empire against the Thalmor
Balgruuf wouldn't be a good leader, think of the city itself the walls are crumbling. He goes out to drink a lot and doesn't care enough about his stewards advice on not doing that. He lets bandits roam his hold and giants attack the farmers cows.
I wouldn't call him a fencesitter as much as he didn't like either option. Siding with the empire would mean accepting thalmor interference, which he's strongly against. When it came clear he had to make a choice he goes with the empire but was sure tulius agrees to conditions he sets.
Idk. His own advisors point out that he was easily bought. And when he loses Whiterun, his main concern is that he will have to pay a ransom for his family.
Holding Hammerfell isn't a necessity for the Aldmeri Dominion, it was just a place to assault the Imperial City's tower from. My opinion is that they saw it as a waste of troops to hold Hammerfell after the the White-Gold Concordat was signed, so they put up little fight and fled, to make the Redguards think they could stand alone without the Empire. Altmer are cunning like that.
@@jextra1313like the Dominion literally seem like they're trying to divide and conquer so that could be the case, hard to take hammer fell when they're spread out would be easier when they control everything and only have hammer fell to fight
@@jextra1313Actually Hammerfell was the priority of the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War because they wanted complete control of the Abecean Sea, not Cyrodiil and at the time it was experiencing a civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears. However they united and managed to repel the Thalmor even without imperial support and they still stand to this day. This proves that the Thalmor do not have the resources and manpower necessary to occupy a human province.
@@varlak9061Except divide and conquer doesn’t work when the independent polities are focused on fighting the Thalmor. Neither the Stormcloaks nor the Redguards will allow the Thalmor to occupy Cyrodiil and the Thalmor have been proven to lack the resources and manpower to occupy a human province.
@@teyrncousland7152 actually Tullius remarks that the only reason the rebellion hasnt been defeated is because the Empire cant spare a single legion to fight Ulfric because the legions are on the boarder prepared to fight the dominion and if they could Ulfric would fall within 2 weeks. Ulfric backs this up if the emperor is in solitude before the end of the civil war remarking that they cant risk an actual war with the empire. it stands to reason the thalmar are in the same situation and cant risk sending an entire army to take hammerfell because theyre preparing for another war. After all they refer to it as "The First war against the Empire"
There’s one side of the fight for skyrim left out here: the forsworn. I really think that much like the great war, the forsworn plot line is being saved for the next elder scrolls game, especially if it’s hammerfell and high rock as many people suspect. Maybe it will be a DLC or something where we see that unfurl. Regardless, I would love to see a video like this one that talks about the future of the reach and the forsworn.
Hammerfell and High Rock together? Daggerfall already did that. Personally, I'd like the next game to take place on the Summerset Isles so we can dismantle the Dominion from its very core, maybe even join the Psijic Order. A game set in Summerset would definitely need a revamped magic system, though, given how much it's been watered down over time.
Honestly I'm about 80% sure TEV VI is going to be us reforming the Daggerfall Covenant, circular stories and all, so for that alone my money is on the stormcloaks winning the civil war.
The big problem I have with the civil war is that the majority of people are given no voice whatsoever. As with most civil wars it’s the ordinary people who take the biggest hit. While I empathise with Ulfric it is clear that the Stormcloaks can’t win against the Aldmeri Dominion which means that the people will be dominated by the Elves while Ulfric is happily enjoying his time in Sovengard! As always a very thoroughly researched piece of lore and a balanced analysis. Very many thanks, I enjoyed hearing it very much.
The Empire in Skyrim compared to the Empire of the past is the Byzantine Empire to the older Roman Empire. It thinks it's the same Empire, calls itself the same Empire, but it's a fragment of the Empire that will slowly dwindle until it is a cultural remnant of a past age.
I'm reading about Byzantine Empire at the moment. It still was great and prosperous (not as Roman). I recommend to read about Belisarius and emperor Justinian. Byzantine Empire was not weak by any means
Narratively, I think the Stormcloaks probably win, and gain independence for Skyrim, but this leaves the Empire potentially more vulnerable to the Thalmor
@@ethans9379acurding to the CODA the Thalmor win wipe out the empire and than the Numidium pops back into normal time and wipes Nirn clean well the Dunmer and Khajiit hide out on the moons
@@planetofthegames2843 Since religious history is a hobby of mine and the Byzantine Empire was critical in the development of Christianity, I am familiar with its history. I agree that it wasn't weak, at first, but over centuries it dwindled until instead of a military superpower, it became a religious center and a trade hub for other cultures and eventually irrelevant. It was the biggest piece left after the fracturing of the Roman Empire and it held on for a long time but it was always on a downward spiral.
Ulfric is an unknowing pawn of the Dominion. Manipulated into starting the war and given righteous fire by the anger of those closest to him only to be squashed by the very elves he hates so much
I clicked on this video to let it run in the background and hear what you had to say, because it sounds really interesting as a premise. I was unfamiliar with your channel and hadn't been paying full attention clicking the thumbnail. When you said "we here at fudgemuppet" I choked on my drink, caught completely off guard. Well played. What a channel name.
One thing I don't think I ever saw mentioned before is that Ulfric as a practicioner of the Thu'um is likely to live significantly longer then usual, meaning that even if he is a 50 year old man, he likely has at least another 50 in him before succumbing to old age.
By far, this is the best video you put together based on "The Elder Scrolls" lore. I have watched and listened to a lot of your lore and story based videos cover this subject area but this has been so well done. Very coherent, very well thought out, very interesting to learn the various perspectives that most of us never consider while playing the game. It is one reason I love the Rigmor Series by Jim. They are real stories based on interesting characters with lore, and depth and cover a lot of possibilities that could have been based on the lore that has been accepted as canon or close to canon. Thank you for the continuing this as I know it takes a lot of work to put these together. "May you live your life through moments, may those moments help you to discover treasures of true value, may those treasures sustain you in happiness all the days of your life."
I'm with the stormcloaks on this one. If I have to choose between denying what I believe at my core or destroy the integrity of an arbitrary state, I would choose the latter every single time. The empire can be rebuilt, people can rise up against occupation. But you can never take back betraying your core beliefs.
The Empire allows thalmor agents to kidnap Skyrim citizens for Talos worship and send them to what is essentially gitmo. That alone makes them unworthy of ruling Skyrim.
Another thing that gets me with Rogvir...he's a guard on gate duty, the duel happened away from the gates (Blue palace if I recall correctly?). So he sees a man running from fellow guards, gets a few seconds to get things explained from Ulfrics PoV, and then opens the gate? No matter the legality of the duel, in that circumstance he is derelict of his duty in a major way.
Well it’s probably the other way around. He didn’t open the gate for ulfric after the duel but before it. And ulfric most likely announced his intention in front of the gate.
@abomination1753 I believe it is actually stated that he opened the gate after the death of the King. Crazy I never even thought about it though,could be a plot hole but guy was about to be decapitated so maybe he was convinced and just believes it was a fair fight because Ulfric said it was.
Rogvir isn't an Imperial soldier, so his alliegence is to the king of Solitude, the High King. If the HK was killed in an honorable duel then Ulfric is the High King Apparent. Assuming Rogvir knows this, then he's not actually betraying anyone except possibly the Empire. If Nord law is that the duel was legal, then Ulfric did no wrong and can leave. If Rogvir prevents him, he's defying nord law. If he was ordered to not let Ulfric leave, then his guilt depends on whether you believe the Nuremberg Defense is invalid, "I was just following orders." In our world, if you know your orders violate the law, you can be held accountable if you choose to follow them. It seems likely the Stormcloaks would have executed Rogvir for this reason had he prevented Ulfric from leaving. From a nord perspective, however you cut it, it appears Rogvir did nothing wrong. His execution was a war crime. However, we don't know what the Empire's rules of occupation are. He could have been executed according to Imperial law. Which means he was damned whatever he chose to do.
The civil war was the best written part of Skyrim's story by far. Not a mere power fantasy, or a good vs bad. No matter how you look at it, both sides are right in their own way.
Of course it was a good vs bad. You had the stormcloaks, and you had the sissy empire too weak to rule themselves but brand you traitors for wanting to rule yourself. The empire right now bends over and takes it up the ass from the thalmor, and yet tries to force it's control over others. I'll remind you the empire was winning at the end of the war, the emperor sold the empire out to spare cyrodiil the hardship of war, they even had to bribe local leaders such as jarls in order to keep them from rebelling. Hammerfell already proved the empire could beat the thalmor, they were simple too cowardly to try.
34:38 I think Ulfric was probably an only son, and that perhaps being a Greybeard is a higher honor than being a Jarl's heir. With that said I want to devil's advocate that position and say that "his only son" could mean "his only remaining son." While this is unlikely, it's plausible enough that someone could reasonably consider it canon until proven otherwise.
I remember playing skyrim a good while back , and remember seeing information in the dossier when you go to the thalmor embassy that the thalmor do not want "Either" side to win the civil war so basically they're admitting that if the empire wins it strengthens the empire for round 2 and also if the stormcloaks win it means skyrim will probably launch a pre-emptive strike on the high elves/thalmor and catch them off guard perhaps?. Either way , i doubt in ES6 that the thalmor/high elves would of taken over tamriel again..don't most ES games take place 100 to 200 years after the last one or something like that?.
ES Arena and Oblivion take place between 35 years of each other with the events of Daggerfall and Morrowind happening between them, Skyrim takes place 201 years after Oblivion.
The thalmor are also probably still recovering from the war, because elves don’t reproduce at the same rate as men. The empire may very well be ready for round 2, but with Skyrim in rebellion they can’t focus their forces on the thalmor and the thalmor know it, and that’s why they’re trying to keep the civil war going. If the storm cloaks win, the empire is weaker, sure, but likely still stronger than them, and now their armies are bloodied and battle tested, and if the empire wins, they have another province of legions to call upon, who, again, are battle tested and ready for war in a way the elven armies just aren’t.
I don't think Skyrim would be weaker without the Empire Skyrim is borded by insane moutain range and other countries that the Aldmeri Dominion would have to cross first, before enterring Skyrim Skyim in itself is one of the least hospitable land in Tamriel and jts people are warriors and hates elves
Warriors who care more about their way of life than their coinpurses. Few people are as dangerous as one who doesn't care about getting paid to fight for what he believes in.
I wouldn't say that. While the moutains create a natural stronghold the cold land is an easily nullified aspect due to aldmeri magic and while skyrim has no shortage of willing fighters they lack funding and resources for equipment especially to deal with magic. We also have to remember the majority of stormcloaks are untrained due to being rebels they arent actual warriors and a majority of their funding comes from the aldmeri dominion itself
@@just_bladeok2041 Magic isn’t that OP in Elder Scrolls on a 1V1 combatant basis. It’s also somewhat niche is not every caster is proficient in destruction or conjuration, as soldiers Altmer fall short on being physically able to hold frontlines for extended periods of time and wouldn’t be reliable to labor tasks that other armies can, they’d rely on Bosmer and Khajiit auxiliaries to be fodder. None of these do particularly well in melee where as Nords are exceptional warriors on average with a home field advantage. Also more importantly the logistics for a Dominion invasion of Skyrim would be abysmal, they’re on the other side of Tamriel so even coming in by sea would be ridiculous.
There is actually some fairly clever political intrigue in Skyrim. The dominion intentionally drove a wedge between Skyrim and the Empire through the banning of Talos worship. And the documents you find in the Aldmeri Embassy saying they’ve secretly supplied the stormcloaks so they can fight the Empire to a standstill is reflective of Real world politics. Where the story fails (from a player POV) is there is no way to bring this to the Empire or Ulfric Stormcloak. Where Ulfric fails… is not talking to the High King. That may have better united Skyrim.
Your guess that Ulfric is not the eldest child of his father because he was sent to the greybeards seems false since Ulfric himself at some point says he's the only child to the 'Great Bear of Windhelm'. He may be lying, but why would he?
So essentially Ulfric has valid points and concerns, reasonable even if they somehow weren’t valid. However, he can’t see the bigger picture or even begin to understand the responsibilities of the empire. So it’s all grey but leaning more towards the empire being the closest to the best option.
Randomly had this recommended to me and decided to watch; Not even realizing who uploaded it lol. Was a very pleasant surprise to hear an old and familiar commentary :) glad to be back
I feel like actually fighting the civil war was a the wrong thing of the empire to do. The ultimate bad guy is the thalmor, and i dont see Ulfric not helping the empire in a war against the thalmor. A win in skyrim for the empire will weaken skyrim as a millitary region for the empire a lot, and it will weaken the empire as a whole, maybe less than just giving skyrim away in a "civil war"
To be fair to the Empire I dont think they really had a choice in the matter. If Ulfric has behaved a bit more diplomatically and either convinced Toryyg to declare Skyrim Independent or having spared Torygg and became high King himself and declare independence then I think the Empire would be much less likely to intervene.
@@anonymousanon6913 Thats very true, but as the posistion stands i feel like a small intervetion from the empire would be the tight way as they wouldnt loose as much. But the right choice would be the peaceful choice, and an alliance with the empire against the thalmor.
The empire is biding it's time. It currently can't fight the thalmor, and so thetormcloaks must be destroyed. Letting them riegn free would've invited the dominion, leading to either A) skyrim being destroyed and a week empire or B) the empire fights a war they will lose. No alliance would've helped at this point. Best they can do is secure skyrim, even if it's weaker. Also, by biding time, it allows other allies, skyrim included, more recovery.
@@CalebMcGinty This all assumes the Empire is actually concerned with going to war with the Thalmor and has doing so as a priority, which I dont see any proof of.
@@anonymousanon6913 there is. They've sent troops to the border with the aldmerie, and tullius mentions peace not lasting between the empire and the dominion after an imperial victory at windhelm. Also, they don't plan on starting it, the dominion will.
Enjoyed that, thanks. Been a few years since I've played the game but your "cinematography" made me want to visit again soon. And you shared the backstory & sociopolitical atmosphere quite well.
Awesome video, but I think you forgot to mention one thing about the Nords who fight for the Empire. The Empire was good to Skyrim for 1,000 years, and while the Nords fighting for it aren't happy with recent events, the Imperial-loyal Nords have a sense of honor and duty to the Empire that only recently started to let them down. These men and women feel that the Stormcloaks have abandoned all honor by turning on a thousand year old friendship when those allies need their help and patience the most.
The funny part of the "Ulfric is racist!!!1!1" argument is that it means absolutely nothing in-universe because EVERYONE in the Elder Scrolls is racist in one way, shape, or form
Honestly in order for anything like you mentioned were to come to light then the Mede dynasty needs to die. They have proven far too corrupt and so if a new dynasty rose up and actually had a backbone but thats likely to never happen. Its hard to grow a backbone when you're in a land governed by weak leaders
I think it might be possible. Ultimately priority isn't really against the thalmor solely, it's for independent skyrim. If the empire, and as such the thalmor, are rid from Skyrim I could see his concerns against the empire ending at that extent.
@@badluck5647 More likely the Thalmor would attempt to attack Skyrim. The only way to invade for them is through Cyrodiil. They try to invade, the Empire betrays them, the Thalmor army is destroyed, and the Stormcloaks and Empire make peace. Pretty easy narrative.
The funniest thing is that from a viewpoint of having the approval of the gods, the respect of all the major competing groups, (as in the ability to get them together and give deference to your opinions/decisions) and just from the standpoint of plain old power, the clear choice for Emperor would be none other than Mr/Ms. Dragonborn.
32:24 Galmar is likely the double agent influencing Ulfric. From their conversations, he's the one that ensures Ulfric continues to be an asset. Of course, Galmar appears to hate the Dominion, as any good double agent would.
I disagree with this on the principle of Galmar's Sovngarde dialogue, where he disavows the Dragonborn for dogging his steps into the afterlife and says the True King will cast them out, which only really tracks with his presented position as Ulfric's most zealous supporter. He would have no reason to put on such façades in death if they were in fact façades
I would say that it is wholly understandable for the stormcloaks to desire independence, and that Skyrim by the nature of it's location and terrain is well equipped to push back a foreign invasion from either the Dominion or Empire as both must choose between a naval landing on harsh coast known for horrid weather or to go through the Jeralls and by extension the Pale Pass or to trek about further to pass through the Drudachs. All of these factors combined with the weather and time to consolidate resources and manpower leave a independent Skyrim well off to survive whatever may threaten them. Now I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong as this is designed to be consistently debatable topic to provoke community interaction, but rather the assertion that an independent Skyrim can't survive without Imperial aid is at least partially if not wholly incorrect.
Also an independent Skyrim while lacking Imperial resources and trade would also be free of their taxes, and their state monopoly in the East Empire Company. They would also have the opportunities to trade with nations like Hammerfell and Morrowind though Morrowind is an unlikely trade partner it is another opportunity for Skyrim to grow in spite of cutting their previous ties.
I'd actually like to challenge the idea that the Empire is pragmatic. From the very beginning, they understood that the Thalmor desired them to become embroiled in a civil war. They KNEW, and yet still decided to prosecute a war that would only result in their enemy's empowerment by virtue of wasting resources and personnel. This is only "pragmatic", if one holds the irrational belief that only a Tamriel united beneath the yoke of Imperial rule, can stand against the Dominion. The Empire is so blinded by its hunger for hegemony, that they refused to even consider... allying with an indepedent Skyrim they simply cut loose. The idea that an indepedent Skyrim would sit out a second Great War is patently absurd. Disingenuous, even. However, the Empire is so used to sitting at the center of the world, at commanding, rather than cooperating, it never entered the calculus that another way was possible. They are so bogged down by Machiavellian realpolitik, that anything other than absolute authority is off the table. That is not pragmatic; it is disconnected from reality, and dare I say... idealistic.
I thought the crux of the imperial’s argument was that the use of shouting made the duel illegal, no different to starting a duel by shooting your unprepared opponent with a boe
I don't think it was the crux of the Empire's argument, in so much as it was the argument of some traditionalist Nords who believe the duel was dishonored by cheating with The Voice. It is an idea that Tullius latched on to and serves as one justification for Ulfric's execution. That's why so many characters are constantly mentioning that Ulfric killed Torygg with a Shout. Its a big deal.
@ I thought tullius and the less traditional nords (such as the high king’s wife) were the ones pushing the illegality of the shout. Whereas everyone else was undecided because no one had used the shout in a high king’s duel before. (And of course ulfric maintains that the shout is completely legal)
If I was an elf, I'd be pissed off with humanity trying to overwrite Auriel's save file with Akatosh. Also, they do seek to end the world, not rule it ultimately, which is unironically a more achievable goal for them.
The end the world thing is a theory based on writings from a ex writer for Bethesda Michael Kirkbride So it could be true but it could also not be true
It literally doesn't matter what they call him. Even Gelebor, a guy spending his extra long snow elven life to his worship says no matter what you call him, that's still the same guy. Still, Auri-El sucks. Lorkhan all the way.
@virdamofromko-metru1161 they turned him into a dragon and gave him a moderately different personality. They aren't exactly the same thing, they're only similar in broad strokes. lt's a noticeable difference, so Gelebor is coping a bit if you ask me.
@@wolves600 I kind of believe that that's what Bethesda is going for anyway. Mainly I'm getting that from the College of Winterhold quest with Ancano. When he starts using the Eye of Magnus, he is pretty clear that he wants to use it to end the world. Now technically we don't know if Ancano went rogue or that the Thalmor wanted that to happen, but with the other Thalmor agent that attacks you in the Labyrinthian it seems to lean to Thalmor wants to end the world.
Well done boys, great one! Looking forward the next ideal ES6 vid! This makes me wanna go back and listen to your Reman in-universe story about his life Scott. Cheers
"Unfair or dishonorable" isn't really a fair way to portray it either. The Nords are people of strength, if the High King gets absolutely annihilated that easily by one he commands, he isn't fit to be High King, that's how Nords work.
This is why Skyrim works and Starfield doesn't. There are deeper things to analyze when breaking down the conflict between the core factions. In Starfield there is no conflict between the core factions.
God, this video was so utterly perfect. I cannot thank you enough for making it. You have voiced the thoughts that I have been voicing for 13 years with varying degrees of success in the quest of getting it through to my audience. There isn't a right or wrong side on this conflict, there's tons of reasons to support one and fight the other, and ultimately it's a matter of where your heart lies. I belong to a historically oppressed nation, culturally different from its hegemon, its identity eroded and replaced by that of our sovereigns. The call to defend Skyrim's freedom and identity from those that would see both stripped away for practicality resonated with me from the moment I saw the trailer and realized Skyrim was fighting a war for independence. Don't get me wrong, I love the Septims and their Empire, but when I played Oblivion all I could think of was of my first Hero of Kvatch, a Nord, returning home to stir a rebellion against imperial rule now that the last Dragonborn Emperor was gone. Skyrim was a dream made true when it came out and I could actually fight for Skyrim's freedom, and so many people are all too eager to call you a bigot for this choice (I'm disabled and bisexual, but being white is enough to being dumped in the same sack as them n4zis). From now on, instead of a tired rant on why I make my choice and why it is a legitimate one, I will refer them to this video. Thank you for making it ❤ Also, a point I rarely see brought up is the fact the Empire could barely survive the Dominion and lost a war to them with four provinces fully pacified, with their manpower intact and no civil unrest. Now people expect the Empire to be able to beat the Dominion if they defeat the rebels, as if they didn't have one full fewer province from which to pull resources and manpower, a very debilitated and restless Skyrim and a Cyrodiil that I expect to still be reeling from the Great War, and depleted enough that the Legion had to recruit any local that came asking in Skyrim due to their difficulties to replenish losses. Much as I love the Bretons, I don't see them carrying the war effort on their own, specially not with Thalmor agents and spies everywhere in the Empire predicting every move of the Legions prior to the war declaration. The most reasonable means of defeating the Dominion and the Thalmor would be through a coalition of nations in equal footing and allied for the purpose of their defeat, not through nations bound by bondage to a bruised hegemon keeping half of its only two subjects in chains, grumbling and bloodied after beating it into submission. But that's just me, heh
I think letting the Thalmor just walk around spying on everything and getting their agents everywhere is proof that the Empire isn't serious. We know they assassinate people, spread lies and propaganda. They want to encourage the Civil War, so why does the Empire let them move unimpeded, and harden opposition to the WG Concordant?
It's so upsetting that the Civil War questline ingame kind of sucks dick. I wanted so much more from it. I originally liked Stormcloaks, but after thinking a bit harder about it.. I think the Imperials are the more ideal protector of Skyrim. There's a lot about the Stormcloaks that just doesn't sit right with me after thorough analysis, and whilst the Imperials aren't perfect, and the first impression you get at Helgen certainly doesn't help their case, they're a lot more level headed. There is a LOT of clues in the game that also indicate that Ulfric's claim for High King of Skyrim isn't particularly just, which can go unnoticed if you don't pay close attention. Torygg himself hints something like that in Sovengarde. There's more details I want to talk about too, but I'm going to try and keep it brief instead. I just love the sheer amount of detail that went into the story and narrative of the Civil War, honestly. It's genuinely interesting, and it's especially cool that we're still bickering over who's actually in the right to this very day. A good sign they did a great job with writing it, if not implementing it.
The "protectors" of Skyrim outlawed the worship of one of it's gods and allows thalmor agents to kidnap Talos worshipers and take them to the Skyrim equivalent of Guantanamo Bay.
@@koolaidman4869 but they also just let people worship talos without consequence (bulgruff heimskr etc) the thalmor are only interving because the stormcloaks rebellion and only signed the white gold concordot to buy time to regain there numbers and are activally requireing ierfutable proof before letting the thalmor take action (and are not happy about it)
The Imperials are allowing the Thalmor to patrol their streets, step up bases in their holds disguised as "embassies" and have them within their ranks. If a second war starts, they'd have to waste resources just removing the strategic advantage that the Dominion already has. They've been on a constant decline since the start of the fourth era, and in the event of a second great war, they wouldn't even have Hammerfell to help them because they sold Hammerfell out to the Dominion. They will not be able to defeat the Dominion in a second war. Skyrim is fully capable of defending themselves in guerrilla warfare due to their natural terrain advantages. Skyrim is more defensible than Hammerfell and Hammerfell was able to repel Dominion forces from their land. The Empire will only drag Skyrim down with them.
Been slowly watching this video. I am really glad you did a somewhat deep dive into this. Not too many people actually understand the full background or lead up to why Ulfric started the civil war. It's not black or white, and the Nords prejudice. There is A LOT of hurt there and people often write it off as just racism. Lastly, an uprising was going to happen, and usually when it does happen support comes from a lot of places; even behind enemy lines.
47:10 quick question, where in the Constitution of America does it say that the Government and religion shall be separated ? Spoiler: it doesn’t. It only says that there will be no state sponsored religion
The issue ive always had with skyrims civil war is how despite its narrative implications, it never felt like it was actually happening
Check out the Open Civil War and Warzones mods. They add a lot of spawnpoints for Stormcloaks and Imperials to fight each other.
Plus a ton of other faction skirmishes (Forsworn, rogue mages, etc)
Yeah mods fix this on pc
As far as skirmishes in the world? I think that’s 2011 gameplay limitations, not an actual fault on the game.
Otherwise, you do get the feeling through in-game dialogue from characters of all kinds, it’s interesting how whether it’s a blacksmith, war general or the leaders themselves, you can talk to them and hear their perspective, it makes it feel like a real conflict with real people.
Huh, really? I have the exact opposite impression. NPCs talk about the civil war as well as how it's impacting them and Skyrim as a whole nonstop. The first decision you have to make in the game is who to go with through Helgen Keep. The biggest visual consequence of the game is the permanent damage caused to Whiterun. It felt like it was far more central to the world and even the game story than the actual main quest.
@@GarlicPuddingyeah I have some kind of skirmish so that is very common to see in the distance a group of 30 or so imperials and stormcloaks having at each other. Usually what happens is only a 2-4 survive and go their own way.
That’s how Bethesda should have handled it
At this point, all I want in ES6, is 3 NCP's named Scott, Michea,l and Drew, who sit in a Tavern all day and debate Tameielic history. you guys, as well as other RUclipsr, like Camelworks, MXR, and Imperial Knowledge have helped kept the fanbase alive for years, and I think it's only right that Bethesda honors you guys with at least a shoutout in the next game.
Patience is a great virtue friend.
I have been distracting myself with Pokémon, God of War, Elden Ring and recently, Black Myth Wukong. 👍❤️
They should be the new bards college
fuck a shoutout, they need to be given JOBS in the creative team.
Watch the fan animation "THLMR 4 - Tavern" by AllinAll, you get basically exactly that, even if it its is technically noncanon
I doubt Bethesda would want to bring much attention to MXR
God I forget how much Ulfric practically begs Rikke to go away and leave Tullius. The Civil War could have been so much more nuanced seeing moments like that survive development.
Ulfric is being heavily influenced by Galmar Stone-Fist, I believe he convinced Ulfric to kill Torygg. The first time you enter palace of the kings Ulfric is hesitant on what to do with Whiterun and Balgruuf and ultimately decides to try a more diplomatic approach but Galmar is insisting violence right of the bat and encourages Ulfric to kill him. The way Ulfric is acting here isn't like someone that would kill a king when he had other options. Most of their interactions Galmar's first impulse is to fight and gets exited before civil battles while Ulfric comes off as he doesn't seem to actually want to fight until he feels it's necessary. It looks like Galmar is a warmonger that usually gets his way. In the end they are Ulfric's choices but I believe Galmar had a huge role to play in starting the war.
Oooh, good catch. I've always thought that a sensible Dragonborn could successfully advocate to Ulfric on behalf of non-Nords living in Skyrim after the events of the game, and while I definitely didn't notice this consciously I wonder if it's part of why I get that feeling
I believe that is also why Galmar's brother is shown strutting around drunk yelling at Dark Elves. Across the river Ulfric's father welcomed the Dark Elves with no expectations when they escaped the red mountain. Ulfric's father seemed a like a kinder and more gentle Jarl.
Galmar is the main reason I'll never do a stormcloak run. Dude is stupid af and wants to kill his own countrymen if they don't join immediately. The thalmor love him because he's a prime target for something like reverse psychology.
Your point makes me question if maybe Galmar could be that Thalmor double agent Michael mentioned.
@@runningthemeta5570huh…
The craziest thing about this is that people can see and understand all of this deep subtext in a game but are absolutely incapable of doing the same in real life.
yeah but Skyrim is actually cool, the real modern world of today sucks.
@@greenreptile5650 you’d be surprised. Lots of interesting things have happened in history. It’s just not packaged neat and nice like Skyrim is
@@noahjones1192 For real, just read about any ancient general
Because they're separated from it and have access to all of the Info in a convenient format.
@@greenreptile5650 yes exactly, real life politics is boring and depressing
THANK YOU for clarifying the definition of "asset" as used in the Thalmor dossier. All these years and that is still the most common misconception I see in these discussions.
Imperials somehow get brainwashing and sleeper agent from uncooperative asset they always do this goes to show they can’t read dossiers or they think lying strengthens their cause 😂
I agree with that. But the "made contact" bit is sus af
@@stephenjenkins7971 well it can be interpreted in many ways
@@ThemoonsFullofgoons-qn9xl Only if you're biased.
He didn't clarify it, Ulfric's status as an asset is not just due to him being valuable.
GUYS, ITS A LORE VIDEO!!!!!
The lore Muppet has been missed
Another lore video before Elder scrolls 6
A rare occurrence.
Orange still bad tho.
Thanks my redguard.
I feel like we need A Skyrim Modlist from Fudge Muppet because this whole video is gorgeous and I love curtain details like Irelith wearing Dunmerian armor.
I love the armours in this video. We need the mods
@@somberflight A lot of the armors are NordWarUA mods but the armor general tullius uses is Titus Mede I armor which gives you the option to have it be general tullius’ armor when you install it. I’ve been researching. 😅
@@KyleDGrizzlythanks. They seem decently realistic, apart from a couple
I love fudge visuals.
Certain*
This video made me realize why Ulfric is so against Elenwen's participation in peace talks in the quest: Season Unending. She's not just the chief of their inquisition squad, she's the person who tortured him in his youth during the great war, and the one who (probably) planted the idea it was his fault that the imperial city had fallen. It's like bringing a still-abusive ex into a therapy session. Tulus has the balls to call out Ulfric about 'good faith' multiple times but then brings that nightmare as an official representative. Also, considering this context, and other events Ulfric views himself as a failure for (not being there for his father's death while stuck in jail/that whole deal in Markarth), I can understand why he feels like 'I fight so that all the fighting that's already been done has not been for nothing'. He speaks both generally about the Nords/Skyrim and himself personally. Dude NEEDS a win, and this may be his last chance.
"It's like bringing a still-abusive ex into a therapy session."
This right here. Another analogy is like going to the bathroom for a huge Taco Bell steamer, then trying to shove it right back where it came from. Imperial or Stormcloak, the common denominator is that Elenwen is a Thalmor THOT who has no business in ANY negotiation. Might as well invite a terrorist to a peace conference.
He doesn't need a win. He needs eternal peace, and I grant him that honour every time.
Tullius should have brought Ulfric before the Emperor, instead of Helgen, as was the original terms of surrender. I am beginning to believe that Tullius is the true Thalmor asset.
@@IPendragonIcorny elf simp
@@Czah5 All throughout Skyrim, the Empire seems to have a blatant disregard for their own laws and honorable conduct.
Heck, they sentence your character to the headsman's axe despite having no evidence against you. And Tullius doesn't even reprimand the captain for going against protocol.
The Empire that Talos founded, which was also blessed by Akatosh, died the day Martin Septim sacrificed himself. The current empire is nothing more than a bunch of politicians and warlords scheming and plotting against each other.
And an empire that can't protect its provinces is not fit to rule. The White Gold Concordat was an insult to every nation that supported the Empire, as the Imperials immediately surrendered the moment their city was threatened, but are more than willing to throw every other nation into a meat grinder.
Honestly I agree with you. The Civil War questline may be underwhelming to play, but there's enough meat for players to spend a decade debating on. And that balance of two viable sides to argue for it's worth praising as far as writing goes.
Not really, it's just that Skyrim players are lobotomized troglodytes that don't understand the English language so they read 'asset' and their brains melt to sludge. Beyond that there's no debate to have about the civil war, either side you pick is a good choice because the worst outcome is the war dragging on. If the Empire wins they still have Skyrim as well as its manpower if the Empire loses it doesn't have to garrison Skyrim which frees up their soldiers in the province, that's it. The writing itself is non existent
@@BremsOfSlorage bait much? I stopped playing Skyrim for about 4 years because of rerelease after rerelease, a lot of players feel the same way, so trying to get a lore dump is fine as long as someone does the research right.
Also the reason why I'm calling you out for rage bait is calling people lobotomized isn't a good argument bud.
that's nonsensical buddy, it's made clear throughout the game that the empire is the canon and correct choice@@BremsOfSlo
@@samburkey9962 Proof?
@@BremsOfSlo This 100 percent, They read the first few words and think the case is closed conveniently ignoring the part where it says a stormcloak victory is to be avoided and that he is uncooperative
I am truly blessed, I had exhausted your whole channel of Skyrim content and now you have just given me an hours worth of content.
I play their videos quite often as background noise when I go to bed. I find I pick up on stuff I missed as I'm listening when I wake up.
@@Mary_Beth_Reimerglad I'm not the only one 😅
Hearing you say "asset does NOT mean someone affiliated with the group" has just set to bed the demons raging in my head for the past 13 years at people who don't understand how intrigue works. people actually thought the big racist man worked with the thalmor with no other context clues but a bad definition of the word asset. thank you.
I see uncooperative, so i see Ulfric is used like a pawn to cause a distraction for the Empire so Thalmor can be Thalmor
they state that he started being uncooperative which implies cooperation
@@val9847 no, it says he has become uncooperative after first contact, which does not at all infer* previous cooperation.
It's hard to avoid modern comparison, but the fact is that Ulfric acts in the better interests of the Thalmor, whether he means to or not. Removing him is bad for the Thalmor. He may not be a traitor, but he is a fool with power, and the cunning villains among the Thalmor can easily turn that into an asset.
@@kevinczaractual from the elves' perspective, he's breaking up the power structure yada yada you know why this is good for them - but really, is it? is it really an advantage for them to have nations independent of resource drain from an empire but united in their hatred of the dominion? i don't think it is. i think the empire is much weaker in it's clinging pretend state, like the byzantines were, than independent but allied former imperial nations, like the crusader states were. removing him ensures the dominion continues to wash over leaderless rebels instead of united enemies. you are, simply, wrong.
It doesn’t get better than a lore video from the OGs. Honesty bethesda owes so much to you guys, Great video Lads ❤️
Thank god Fudgemuppet released a hour and a half long elder scrolls video. Now I can finally sleep by the nine is been months
A sovereign Skyrim allied with an independent Hammerfell seems very likely, the aftermath of the Great War left both in a similar position and both have a strong warrior culture. The Empire is also gearing up for war. This would force the Dominion to fight multiple fronts, it's possible Valenwood may revolt since it was conquered by the Dominion.
I often wondered if several independent nations would fair better than a crumbling empire in decline. Obviously, Skyrim has many legitimate grievances with how the empire is treating them. The only way I could really see the empire recovering is if it got a new extremely powerful emperor, like the dragonborn. Either way I would think that if an ES6 occurs on the continent of tamriel it should encompass the second great war.
@@Duranous. Hopefully ES6 doesn’t follow the trend of taking place several several centuries in the future, where all we can do to learn about the aftermath of Skyrim is some books here and there. If it’s NOT mostly about the second Great War, I’m wondering if it’s even worth playing.
I'm terrified for TES6, like I really hope they do the fans justice and take into account all the lore, philosophy and politics?
...But I'm scared that Bethesda will ignore their own rich lore in order to _'Avoid making current-year-applicable political commentary'_ or something weak like that...
@Duranous. That's essentially what I see as the proper outcome, and why I seriously dislike how dumb and limited the choices are in the civil war quest.
The Dragonborn has the demi-god-like power and public influence to single-handedly stop the civil war by assuming control of the Empire, now that Mede II is dead, rebuild the Empire and form an alliance with Hammerfell, Skyrim, and any other province that is sick of the Aldmeri Dominion (at least Valenwood, but the Khajiit and Argonians have gotten the Altmer shaft as well).
This combined 'Non Altmer Tamrielic Organization' would be a force to be reckoned with.
@pfarnsworth84 The funny part is that, from a lore perspective, the Dragonborn doesn't need an army to fight off the Altmer. He could simply speak their destruction into existence without hesitation 😅.
I like how people still debate the skyrim civil war till this day. 😂😂😂
And gon debate on it till Talos says something 🤝🏾😂😂
@@gershwinwest😂😂
@@gershwinwest Ulf in morrowind is one of Talos' mortal guises and he agrees that tge empire is due for replacement
Cause nothing has changed.....the story has literally been stagnant till they make something new that is after in the timeline.
Hopefully the new game answers that question
The debate almost reminded me of Lawful vs Chaotic Alignments in D&D. Lawful Alignments tend to care more about order and structure, where as Chaotic Alignments tend to care more about freedom and self determination. Both have their benefits, and their downsides, and they are considered to be separate from Good vs Evil.
This also perfectly describes the mindsets of Steve Rogers & Stark in MCU Civil War
oh man.. THOSE discussions were headache inducing because everyone had some serious issues about defining what it meant to be lawful or chaotic. Some real gems out there for people adamant that "following their moral code" was *lawful* because of their adhering to the rules of the code... just ignoring entirely if that code was something that was acceptable among the greater society
@bartofii I would argue that societal expectations have little to do with that. Especially because what is considered normal/justified changes over time or changes from society to society.
@@garrettlaturski6703 I personally grew to view law/chaos as order/disorder and how one acts in a society with differing degrees of enforcement to impose or depose the order.
As such one's actions might be "chaotic" in certain context if they are acting openly against the standard set.
the issue was when people instead viewed lawful as "following rules" and then mental gymnastic'd their way to viewing a moral code as a self imposed rule that can then make someone lawful if they follow it while ignoring the context of how those actions take place with respect to the society around them... like arguing batman is lawful when going around as a vigilante, breaking into homes/facilities, trespassing, assaulting... well breaking a host of laws in trying to seek out justice in Gotham, but still adheres to his avoidance of killing or showing restraint.
I see self-imposed rules as almost the embodiment of law. You are choosing to build your own structure and follow through with it, so long as you actually remain consistent. That's what something like the Oath of Vengeance is.
Don't take these replies as an argument. I am not saying you're wrong, I'm just passionate about my own opinions, and like discussing them.
If ES6 isn’t about destroying the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion, I don’t want it
So far the assumption is that ES6 will e set in Hammerfell, so we certainly won't directly destroy the Thalmor.
i think it will be set in a whole different era
why are you a racist like the stormcloaks?
I think they will include high rock. I don’t think hammer fell alone would please everyone. Hammer fell is a huge desert and I don’t think fantasy fans would be happy with that . If they included high rock it would please everyone I think. That’s the reason why we haven’t seen a game that includes black marsh or elsewhere.
@@Devon.455 Nah, we definitely only gonna get the entirety of Hammerfell with some special areas. Everyone thought that Skyrim will be just covered in snow
Fudgemuppet: Skyrim came out in 2011, it's an "OLD" Game.
And I took that personally
13 years is pretty old brother. When Skyrim came out, Ocarina of Time was 13 years old and people already called it Retro.
Yeah dude your an old fart now
I played games that none of you dont even know of. I was there, kids, 3000 years ago.
Put around 600 hours into Skyrim in 2011 and played very little with creation club, finally decided to give it another play through now that I’m older and can really conceptualize the story, this video is so so good and really gives me another level of immersion for this play through
This is very put of the blue but... I didnt remember how Ulfrics voice sounded... Im so jealous of that VA
i feel like he doesn't sound like that in the game. not sure, but hadvar definitely sounded fifteenth
different, not fifteenth
@@deveshbhagat2732 I haven't played in years so I genuinely don't remember
Vladimir Kulich. He has a very recognisable voice. The 13th Warrior was one of my favourite films as a kid and hearing him in Skyrim was a real omg moment lol
I forgot how badass his voice was
i feel like at this point even when elder scrolls 6 comes out, well still return back to skyrim
True, considering I still like to play Oblivion too, lol
So, you're finally awake.
Jeremy Soule won't be in ES6 sadly... and bethesda is woke. Skyrim was the last real ES game. Fun while it lasted.
We will just have to wait and see what ES6 holds. I have hope that it will be good, with the amount of time it's taken, but if it isn't I will not be too surprised.
@@LoftOfTheUniverselet me play you a song with the world's smallest violin
I cannot wait for this channel to get a boon of both content and subs when the next elder scrolls game releases in 2069
Honestly, considering it's been five years since the TEASER, maybe your guess for the date is accurate?
How good is this game/franchise that you can still make engaging content like this years later and we are still here for it??!
I can never get enough Skyrim content
We are back, sons and daughters of Skyrim.
The true sons and daughters of Skyrim
We are SO back
I am the Eternal Champion
We are the true heirs to the Empire of Talos.
@@3TYKX and the rightful rulers of skyrim
"By the Nine, I hate the waiting, the goddamned waiting."
I always thought it would've been cool if, regardless of which side you chose, there would've been Thalmor agents showing up to directly interfere with the dragonborn trying to end the civil war
GET OUT OF MY WALLS!!! I just started a new survival character on legendary with some civil war mods trying to be a merchantile character to get immersed, JUST hopped off and less the 30 minutes ago you posted this. Bravo amazing timing I'm scared
We are all synced. This happens way too much for it to be coincidence anymore imo
I did the same thing last knight
i just picked the game up again too out of the blue, 3 days ago
The sticking point I keep coming to with Ulfric is when he chooses to be ideological vs when he chooses to be pragmatic. It would have been no less traditional or honorable to have a conversation with Torygg, but instead he put him and by extension the entire capitol city into a carefully calculated no-win situation that, while in keeping with Nord traditions, is also the sort of political machination more characteristic of Boethia than Talos.
He's capable of both pragmatism and idealism, but he seems to pick and choose on the basis of what's more glorious for him, rather than what's best for the ordinary citizens, or even what would make things worse for the Thalmor.
Good point. I think it's because of this:
For Ulfrick it's essential to boast himself to show that he can be the high king, the true nord. That's why he has to put himself in the spotlight always. He thinks that being the manlies nord is the true way to be a good high king for your people.
That's also what I dislike about him. He is the personification of "we only need a strong leader and all will be good"
@itsQuintcy absolutely. It's frustrating because we know he can be pragmatic, but when we see him choosing between actually making things better for the people of Skyrim (or sometimes specifically Windhelm) or becoming more glorious (or otherwise closer to whatever ideal he has in his head), he'll pick the second option. And to be fair maybe that's because he thinks that if he becomes an ideal king his peoples' problems will just magically be resolved, lots of leaders have fallen for that kind of thinking and it doesn't make them evil. But it DOES make them incorrect and less likely to actually be good for their citizens.
@CatHasOpinions734 yes I totally agree on the citizen part.
Ulfrick is that kind of guy who creates this glorified personality cult around him. He gathers all the people that have hatred for the talmor, the whole white-gold concordat and all Talos fans. Then he proceeds to buy into this problem around who is the high king at the current moment and tells some ideological fiction about freeing Skyrim by having a true son of Skyrim on the throne. The killing of high king Torygg and this calculated no-win made him the senter piece in what many conservative nords in Skyrim already wanted to believe.
Let's say he "frees" Skyrim. Now they are basically at war with the Altmeri Dominion and the Empire.
So Ulfric is… Trump?
@@zaydmuminuun there are definitely some similarities, but Ulfric gives better speeches.
Important notes on random things: Talos actually has a totally reasonable and non-conflicting explanation behind his racial identity. He's thought of as an Imperial, but the Imperial race(s?) of Colovia and Nibenay are known to include ancient Nordic blood. The mention of "men of Kreath" as Ayleid slaves confirms this at the least, along with intermeixing throughout centuries of good relations. Typical Nord and Imperial people are racially so close, even assuming a racist pair of people you'd get intermarrying a lot. He's described as being short and has been called "manmer" suggesting Breton lineage, but we also know for sure that his original name was Hjalti Early-Beard (Ysmir is a title also shared by Wulfharth he later becomes part of the Talos being and also by the Dragonborn in TES V and other unknown characters likely had it). Based on all of this, and the fact that a person can inherit racial traits from a father but is usually the race of the mother overall, one could safely say Hjalti was a Skyrim-born Nordic man with Breton blood possibly related to the ancient Nord invasion of High Rock and the potential of average Imperial blood but in total was a Nord. A Nord with some mixed blood, making it fitting that he became the spirit of human undertaking.
Chim-el Adabal is not actually the name of the Amulet of Kings, rather it's the name of the red diamond which holds all its magic. Red because it's magically infused blood from Lorkhan, which absorbed Aetherial power from an Ayleid well and was further enhanced by Akatosh's influence. This does not directly conflict with ebony being Lorkhan's blood because that could be the result of his normal blood 'drying' in a metaphysical sense and when his heart formed Red Mountain it likely spread through incredibly deep underground movements by means of magma flows, explaining the incredible magical power of such magma as seen with the Aetherium Forge.
Titus Mede II knew he would be assassinated, and there's evidence he may have partially orchestrated it himself, although not totally confirmed. We also have some confirmation that a replacement emperor immediately sits the throne, because the characters in places still refer to one, and the detail was even put in place that Tullius administering the oath to the Dragonborn slight adjusts his words to reflect the death of Titus. This probably means that his son, a man who would most likely be in his forties, inherited his throne.
Wait, we’re going to ignore that Ulfric was ok with child murder? Yeah, sorry that’s why I don’t side with him regardless of his history
@@anyashindler3781 He's also quite comfortable with letting Argonians live like abused slaves, letting the Dunmer in his city live in a trash heap that guards barely pay attention to, and is very irrational in thinking Skyrim would stand any chance against the Dominion without help. Considering his forces would have almost no mages if they had any at all, and one talented wizard could burn or electrocute a whole column of Stormcloaks in the right situation, he's clearly a bit crazy on top of the reality of how bad he'd be as a ruler. We already have an example of how bad he is at running one city, so running all of Skyrim he'd make it a bad place.
@@UnswimmingFishYTthe Argonians aren’t let into the city for the safety of themselves and the Dunmer. The Dunmer constantly enslaved the Argonians through out all of Tamriels history. Black Marsh invaded Morrowind shortly after the eruption of Red Mountain, slaughtering countless Dunmer. Ulfric is trying to keep the peace as best he can in his city walls. It’s an unfortunate circumstance but it’s something that is best for both of them. Windhelm was also the only city in the province to let in Dunmer refugees after the eruption and continues to welcome Dunmer still immigrating from Morrowind. Again the only city in Skyrim that lends a helping hand to their eastern neighbors. The state of the Grey Quarter can be justified in a multitude of ways. The general state of Windhelm isn’t great. Hell the state of the entire province isn’t great considering Skyrim, and all of Tamriel for that matter, currently exists in a post apocalyptic state. The Oblivion Crisis coupled with The Great War and The Red Year gutted the continent essentially bringing every province to its knees. Skyrim could hold off the Thalmor just fine. Hammerfell held them off by themselves with no outside help, a province with a similar warrior culture like Skyrim. To assume Skyrim wouldn’t ally with the remaining imperial nations is just wrong. High Rock would likely send forces, as well as Cyrodill, and possibly Hammerfell. The Great War isn’t as surface level as the Empire versus the Aldmeri Dominion. It’s a race war, Men versus Mer so it’s very likely the races of Man would unite against the races of Mer even if the empire exists in a fractured state.
Dunmer refuse to assimilate and work with other races thats why they're so poor. And argonians not being allowed inside makes perfect sense considering all the inevitable lizard on knifeear violence @UnswimmingFishYT
@@anyashindler3781As if the empire hasn’t murdered any children throughout its history lol. Nobody’s hands are clean.
I have ZERO faith that Bethesda will create a well-written Elder Scrolls 6
After starfield I also have no faith.
That's why tabletop roleplaying, Homebrewing, and or stuff like Gurps or D&D 5e rules (or 3.5e)
@@Duranous.Todd Howard’s magnum opus lmao
@@eggbreath9631 I had no idea that a totally new Bethesda sci fi could be so boring and uninspired...
Skyrim itself isn't even that well written,games only got lore and not a good in game story
White-Gold Concordat is one of those things that bother me immensely every time I get reminded of it.
AFAIK there is no precedent in real life history where a smaller state invades a larger state, after initial successes gets defeated in a pitched battle and then still managed to get the larger state to sign a peace treaty where it accepts its terms in their entirety.
All the examples I can think of where a smaller state invaded a larger state successfully it usually relied on either a support of another large state (ex: Prussia during Severn Years War) or it waged a campaign of decisive victories, never giving the larger state to get its shit together (ex: England during Hundred Years War) or the large state was undergoing a civil war (ex: Sweden during Thirty Years War).
By every metric Aldmeri Dominion shouldn't have the resources of the Empire. It has 3 provinces to Empire's 4. Empire's provinces are all Men and have been together for almost 600 years, so there is a sense of unity, whereas Aldmeri Dominion is a Altmer supremacist state that has relatively recently conquered Valenwood and Elsewyr. Empire's armies are populated by recruits from all 4 provinces (we've seen this in games) while I simply can't imagine Khajit serving in Dominion's armies. And this is assuming that all provinces have equal populations, where most likely case is that Cyrodil aloone had higher population than the entire Dominion, before the war.
So when the Empire finally stopped the Aldmeri Dominion, supposedly completely crushing their army, WHY THE FUCK DID IT LITERALLY ACCEPT ALL OF DOMINION'S TERMS WHAT THE FUCK?! Literally every nation in human history would've continued the war and counter attacked, potentially even counter invaded Dominion. This is literally like if in our real history Great War, in 1914, the French stopped the Germans at the Somme and then immediately accepted a peace treaty where they let them have Belgium and give up any right to Alsace-Loraine forever.
The aldmeri dominion had a artifact that allowed them to instantly know the position of the enemy army which was advantages
They may have fewer soldiers but they are far more experienced with generals needing centuries of experience to even qualify for promotion
As for counter invasion
Tiber septim himself with a united Tamriel needed the numidium to conquer summerset a empire without him or the numidium wouldn’t stand a chance
The Imperial mongrel dogs just have no fight in them. Hammerfell and Skyrim are literally better off without them.
@@wolves600 Moreover, Aldmeri soldiers are more dangerous individually than their non-elven counterparts
The Gourmet will be missed more than Titus Mede II.
considering how more useful The Gourmet was than Titus the Incompetent not surprising
you guys clearly don't know anything about Titus Mede II
Calm down Amaund Mautierre
@@planetofthegames2843 the guy so hated; he participated in stolen valour (claimed he fought at the battle of the Red Ring but was actually the Forgotten Hero) lost Hammerfell, lost half of Skyrim and was assassinated by his own Elder Council. Yeah, dude has a legacy of failure
@@GenericUsername-qp1ww let's say Council did it for the Empire
Great video thank you for keeping the community alive
"Forget the list. He goes to the block.". The Captain chose for me. If you don't want to be my enemy, don't try to chop off my head.
I agree with this. But people argue that the guy with the list is kind to you and Ulfric/the Stormcloaks are just a bunch of racists so that's enough reason to join the Legion even though you'd be dead if Alduin hadn't interfered.
One thing I don't see discussed a bunch which was kinda indirectly talked about here is that its very possible to be pro-independence without liking Ulfric. Personally I do pretty solidly prefer the Empire, but the Stormcloak side is full of people like Jarls Dengeir or Laila who have their misgivings about Ulfric personally but ultimately decide independence is worth empowering him. He definitely dominates the discussion, and understandably so, but in the end he isn't immortal or particularly young. Is that much consolation to the dunmer and argonians of Windhelm? No not particularly, but it is a part of looking at the conflict holistically.
Another interesting idea is looking at the rebellion as something along the lines of a mercy killing or escaping a sinking ship. Like the video gets into even after everything that's torn the Empire apart its likely an anti-Thalmor alliance still forms from its pieces. So I could see an argument made that the Empire as it exists now is weaker than the sum of its parts as evidenced by their loss to the Dominion in the Great War and that an alliance of equals in its place wouldn't have the same points of failure that a united Empire would. Its does make sense that the Emperor in the Imperial City would sue for peace when that city was just barely defended. It was in fact, arguably the only acceptable course of action. However we see with the continued war in Hammerfell that just because Cyrodiil wasn't able to continue fighting doesnt mean the other provinces didn't have some gas left in the tank. Through this lens the Stormcloak Rebellion, if won quickly, uses the reprieve of the white-gold concordat to speed up the dissolution of the Empire in order to allow time for the now autonomous realms of men to reorganize and recuperate in a more durable form than they could have under a single emperor.
I don't know that I completely agree with that reasoning and have enough grievances with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks at large to oppose them regardless, but I do think it gets treated as a foregone conclusion far too readily that a united Empire is necessarily better suited to fighting the Dominion.
I completely agree that a united Empire is weaker than the sum of its parts. Hammerfell drove the AD out and are still independent. That is what sticks in the craw of the Empire. If the Empire couldn't win when they had the belief of Talos uniting them, what will motivate them after 3 decades of heresy? There are children who are born and grown to adulthood with no knowledge of Talos.
The Empire only seeks its own continuance, but it has no justification. Because it lost the war, because it signed the WG Concordant, it has abdicated its position as the defender of mankind. Because Hammerfell persists, because Skyrim is willing to fight, they show that the races and realms of men are stronger than the Empire. I'd argue that a nation of Cyrodil would also regain its vigor. The Empire became decadent and complacent. That is why they lost to the Thalmor. The fanaticism of the Thalmor needs to be matched by willing men and hardy.
The Empire is similar to the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was considered the Universal Empire, under God and ordained by God. When it fell, it was because it couldn't get its armies to defend it. And in its place came new kingdoms, with vigor, who learned and took from the Roman Empire, but had the will to live and fight.
@@shorewall Hammerfell did not ''drive the AD out'' - it struggled for five years to fight them to a standstill. It is canon that the entire Empire would've fallen without the Concordat.
Also, Rome fell because it got fucked on all sides. It was literally located in Anatolia - a crossroads. They had the Catholic Kingdoms who fucked them from the west, and the Turks from the East. That comparison falls flat.
Ulfrics successor will likely be just like him due to the way the moot works
And the stormcloak are framed for the assination of the emperor there is a good chance that destroys any chance of alliance between the two groups
@@dutchpatriot17the roman empire did not fall because one tenth of it was located in anatolia. In fact, the part of the Empire that was in anatolia, the Eastern Roman Empire, survived for a thousand more years after the fall of rome. A comparison between Rome and The Empire is absolutely justified, this is literally who they are based on.
@@fantamannen The Eastern Romams fell because it got fucked from all sides. The Western Romans fell because its leaders were corrupt and couldn't pay off invading German tribes anymore.
The comparison with the Third Empire falls flat.
IMO the empire should just let skyrim seperate and then broker a mutual defence treaty (skyrim, cyrodiil, highrock, and hammerfell). Skyrim will be independent and cyrodill won't lose precious resorces on quelling the rebellions. The thalmor may try to make the empire fall, but if the empire's former territories stand with it against the thalmor anyways, then their scheming wont matter. Hammerfell has shown that the elves can be defeated. The Thalmor are not as strong as they want you to believe
It does disconnect the empire in two if Skyrim is independent. Humanity might have a lower chance to defeat the Dominion.
@@georgevirtus The Empire is not Humanity. When Skyrim leaves, the Empire is basically just Cyrodill.
High Rock is still part of Cyrodiil and is quite loyal to the empire. Also half of skyrim is still loyal to the empire.
@@shorewall High Rock is still with the Empire. If Skyrim is gone how will the Empire function as a state if it's split? Anvil is useless due to the Dominion, going through the Topal bay would be considered dangerous due to Red Mountain, the Stormcloaks or the Dominion.
@@georgevirtusthrough diplomacy with skyrim, skyrim isn't hostile to the empire, their hostile to the thalmor, who the empire serves.
This video truly shows how the Civil War storyline could've been amazing. They had all the building blocks already there.
When you listen to all the conversations between the military leaders after each quest, it shows great attention to detail and potential for conflict. All the characters were well developed, they had already worked on sieges, camps, politics, etc...
Only thing is, the actual gameplay was trash, just go from one fort to the next, on and on. But it could've been so much better.
Just look at the quest in High Hrothgar and the infiltration of the Thalmor Embassy. Those main story line quests show how great the Civil War could've been if given the same level of attention, resources and care. It's just a shame.
To be fair. It was 2011 lol
The worst part is that there are tons of unused files and scripts that show that the civil war was meant to be substantially more engaging. Each hold city having an invasion and defense mission depending on what side you chose, more detailed fort battles, and unused semi-cutscene moments of certain seemingly do-nothing NPCs engaging in post-battle outcomes (the Thalmor at Markarth have an unused scene where Galmar executes them) have had modders restore the content and become immensely disappointed in the version we ultimately got.
And the worst part is that there are small crumbs of that content in the main game which are regarded as the best civil war content for obvious reasons. The corresponding ONE fort battle led by Ralof or Hadvar infiltrating said fort for additional reinforcements from within was the only surviving, more detailed intent of the fort battles having other objectives rather than "run in and kill off waves until they stop". The various encamped Imperial Officer and Stormcloak Officer characters were likely meant to be boss fights, hence why they all have Essential tags despite not being used in anything whatsoever (seriously, they don't even occupy taken forts. Wtf is the point of most of them?).
I hope Skyrim and Hammerfell make a pact called the Sandy Snow Concordant
How awesome would it be for the Redguards and Nords to join forces, even picking up the Dunmer (who hate the Altmer also), and begin a massive conquest to push those filthy Thalmor back to their little island in the South.
@@andynorth1776 this is one of the favourite potential stories I wanted told, with the Empire gone, Hammerfell reaches out to negotiate an alliance with Skyrim, and because of what the Dragonborn dose for the people of Solstheim, House Redoran and surprisingly House Telvanni are willing to throw their lot in to crate a new pact against the Dominion, Helgen can be re-taken and rebuilt as a trade hub since Helgen is between Falkreath and the Rift which are the closest to Hammerfell and Morrowind respectively, the borders between the provinces are open so we can advancer to places like Blacklight were you can stop a group of Argonian priest under the control of the An-Xileel harassing shipping routs and maybe broker a peace between them and have Black-March join this new alliance, or to Elinhir were you help the Crowns and the Forebears settle their differences once and for all so they can finally dive the Thalmor from Hammerfell.
@@andynorth1776if they did . Id hope they can get along. Because nords and red guards are like oil and water at times.
\m/
Its mentioned the empire isnt utilising all its resources to fight the stormcloaks, which means its totally possible the war hardly crippled the empire in the event of a stormcloak victory, and that a possibility of a later team up is still there. How many imperials died, lore accurately in the event of a stormcloak victory do you think?
Tullius even mentions he was only given half a legion to retake Skyrim. Minus the Battlemages Alduin killed in the beginning of the game.
@@mutegrab666 that is basically confirmed in the game.
I think it is Legate Rikke who mentions they mostly rely on native Nords to fill their ranks, rather than soldiers from the empire.
If the stormcloak ending is cannon the post game starts with imperial legions marching in to bring order and crushing the fledgling state which probably ignites a new great war
The majority of losses are skyrim citizens, the imperials are losing maybe a 10th or 5th of their forces even if every single imperial soldier dies in skyrim, most of the men there are skyrim citizens raised for stormcloak or imperial cause.
@@danielsantiago3273unlikely, the stormcloaks winning means a united skyrim, the empire would have to use the majority if not all of their legions to beat it, legions don't just magic themselves all the way across the world, if they could than skyrim would be easy to put down. What you see now is local militias, jarl troops, and levies of half of skyrim fighting half of skyrim and a legions or two of imperial troops. With a united skyrim they could raise a full proper army, and the empire would struggle to get through chokepoints to fight skyrim, that is why they can't send reinforcements right now cause of a storm blocking way or something if memory serves.
If the empire fights skyrim, it means the death of the empire, they know it, skyrim knows it, the thalmor knows it. The blind and deaf even know it. The empire isn't capable of sparing more than a token force without risking half of the empire being overrun.
Can't overstate how much I enjoy these long form lore vids.
Ulfric running off to fight in the Great War because he "couldn't stand to miss it" is the behavior of a VERY young man. I would assume that, like many monastic orders in our world, Ulfric would have been chosen and taken to High Hrothgar by 5 or 6. This makes him 15 or 16 at the time he runs off to fight in the war, making his actions make MUCH more sense. It is not impossible he was older, but it is just much less likely.
Even though Balgruuf would be the most sensible, and he's a good ruler, he's a bit of a fencesitter. The reason why he's not an option is because he might not help anyone in the end, since it's difficult to please both people who want to live in relative peace (at first), under oppression by the Thalmor, and people who want freedom against near impossible odds. Ideally though, now that I think about it, Balgruuf would be excellent in uniting Skyrim and joining the Empire against the Thalmor
Ol' gruffy balls the fencesitting nord
Balgruuf wouldn't be a good leader, think of the city itself the walls are crumbling. He goes out to drink a lot and doesn't care enough about his stewards advice on not doing that. He lets bandits roam his hold and giants attack the farmers cows.
I wouldn't call him a fencesitter as much as he didn't like either option. Siding with the empire would mean accepting thalmor interference, which he's strongly against. When it came clear he had to make a choice he goes with the empire but was sure tulius agrees to conditions he sets.
"The World's Most Laughable Centrist"
Idk. His own advisors point out that he was easily bought. And when he loses Whiterun, his main concern is that he will have to pay a ransom for his family.
A point about "Empire needs to be whole to resist the Aldmeri". The Redguard are doing just fine.
Holding Hammerfell isn't a necessity for the Aldmeri Dominion, it was just a place to assault the Imperial City's tower from. My opinion is that they saw it as a waste of troops to hold Hammerfell after the the White-Gold Concordat was signed, so they put up little fight and fled, to make the Redguards think they could stand alone without the Empire. Altmer are cunning like that.
@@jextra1313like the Dominion literally seem like they're trying to divide and conquer so that could be the case, hard to take hammer fell when they're spread out would be easier when they control everything and only have hammer fell to fight
@@jextra1313Actually Hammerfell was the priority of the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War because they wanted complete control of the Abecean Sea, not Cyrodiil and at the time it was experiencing a civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears. However they united and managed to repel the Thalmor even without imperial support and they still stand to this day. This proves that the Thalmor do not have the resources and manpower necessary to occupy a human province.
@@varlak9061Except divide and conquer doesn’t work when the independent polities are focused on fighting the Thalmor. Neither the Stormcloaks nor the Redguards will allow the Thalmor to occupy Cyrodiil and the Thalmor have been proven to lack the resources and manpower to occupy a human province.
@@teyrncousland7152 actually Tullius remarks that the only reason the rebellion hasnt been defeated is because the Empire cant spare a single legion to fight Ulfric because the legions are on the boarder prepared to fight the dominion and if they could Ulfric would fall within 2 weeks. Ulfric backs this up if the emperor is in solitude before the end of the civil war remarking that they cant risk an actual war with the empire. it stands to reason the thalmar are in the same situation and cant risk sending an entire army to take hammerfell because theyre preparing for another war. After all they refer to it as "The First war against the Empire"
There’s one side of the fight for skyrim left out here: the forsworn. I really think that much like the great war, the forsworn plot line is being saved for the next elder scrolls game, especially if it’s hammerfell and high rock as many people suspect. Maybe it will be a DLC or something where we see that unfurl. Regardless, I would love to see a video like this one that talks about the future of the reach and the forsworn.
Hammerfell and High Rock together? Daggerfall already did that. Personally, I'd like the next game to take place on the Summerset Isles so we can dismantle the Dominion from its very core, maybe even join the Psijic Order.
A game set in Summerset would definitely need a revamped magic system, though, given how much it's been watered down over time.
The Skyrim civil war is one of the few times I get so invested in politics I wish it was more than go to a fort and fight enemies.
Historically the biggest problems for the high elves have been when the races of men stop squabbling and remember who the adversary is
Honestly I'm about 80% sure TEV VI is going to be us reforming the Daggerfall Covenant, circular stories and all, so for that alone my money is on the stormcloaks winning the civil war.
I’d rather slit my wrists vertically than play another DC storyline.
I can't believe you guys still do stuff, it's amazing. I've grown so much but you guys a still here, thank you for still making content
The big problem I have with the civil war is that the majority of people are given no voice whatsoever. As with most civil wars it’s the ordinary people who take the biggest hit. While I empathise with Ulfric it is clear that the Stormcloaks can’t win against the Aldmeri Dominion which means that the people will be dominated by the Elves while Ulfric is happily enjoying his time in Sovengard!
As always a very thoroughly researched piece of lore and a balanced analysis. Very many thanks, I enjoyed hearing it very much.
The Empire in Skyrim compared to the Empire of the past is the Byzantine Empire to the older Roman Empire. It thinks it's the same Empire, calls itself the same Empire, but it's a fragment of the Empire that will slowly dwindle until it is a cultural remnant of a past age.
I'm reading about Byzantine Empire at the moment. It still was great and prosperous (not as Roman). I recommend to read about Belisarius and emperor Justinian. Byzantine Empire was not weak by any means
Narratively, I think the Stormcloaks probably win, and gain independence for Skyrim, but this leaves the Empire potentially more vulnerable to the Thalmor
@@ethans9379acurding to the CODA the Thalmor win wipe out the empire and than the Numidium pops back into normal time and wipes Nirn clean well the Dunmer and Khajiit hide out on the moons
@@planetofthegames2843 Since religious history is a hobby of mine and the Byzantine Empire was critical in the development of Christianity, I am familiar with its history. I agree that it wasn't weak, at first, but over centuries it dwindled until instead of a military superpower, it became a religious center and a trade hub for other cultures and eventually irrelevant. It was the biggest piece left after the fracturing of the Roman Empire and it held on for a long time but it was always on a downward spiral.
@@ravendelacour1917 So it did what literally every great nation does. Amazing. The bloody Roman Empire did the same thing
Ulfric is an unknowing pawn of the Dominion. Manipulated into starting the war and given righteous fire by the anger of those closest to him only to be squashed by the very elves he hates so much
I clicked on this video to let it run in the background and hear what you had to say, because it sounds really interesting as a premise. I was unfamiliar with your channel and hadn't been paying full attention clicking the thumbnail. When you said "we here at fudgemuppet" I choked on my drink, caught completely off guard. Well played. What a channel name.
Great Video I look back fondly at a time when Bethesda was capable of complex and thought provoking story telling
One thing I don't think I ever saw mentioned before is that Ulfric as a practicioner of the Thu'um is likely to live significantly longer then usual, meaning that even if he is a 50 year old man, he likely has at least another 50 in him before succumbing to old age.
By far, this is the best video you put together based on "The Elder Scrolls" lore. I have watched and listened to a lot of your lore and story based videos cover this subject area but this has been so well done. Very coherent, very well thought out, very interesting to learn the various perspectives that most of us never consider while playing the game. It is one reason I love the Rigmor Series by Jim. They are real stories based on interesting characters with lore, and depth and cover a lot of possibilities that could have been based on the lore that has been accepted as canon or close to canon. Thank you for the continuing this as I know it takes a lot of work to put these together. "May you live your life through moments, may those moments help you to discover treasures of true value, may those treasures sustain you in happiness all the days of your life."
I'm with the stormcloaks on this one. If I have to choose between denying what I believe at my core or destroy the integrity of an arbitrary state, I would choose the latter every single time. The empire can be rebuilt, people can rise up against occupation. But you can never take back betraying your core beliefs.
But the stormcloaks themselves also contributed to the outlawing of other religions so they are hypocrites
I’ll follow you to war anytime bud
The Empire allows thalmor agents to kidnap Skyrim citizens for Talos worship and send them to what is essentially gitmo. That alone makes them unworthy of ruling Skyrim.
Another thing that gets me with Rogvir...he's a guard on gate duty, the duel happened away from the gates (Blue palace if I recall correctly?). So he sees a man running from fellow guards, gets a few seconds to get things explained from Ulfrics PoV, and then opens the gate? No matter the legality of the duel, in that circumstance he is derelict of his duty in a major way.
Well it’s probably the other way around. He didn’t open the gate for ulfric after the duel but before it. And ulfric most likely announced his intention in front of the gate.
"No matter the legality..."
This man is a tyrant.
@abomination1753 I believe it is actually stated that he opened the gate after the death of the King. Crazy I never even thought about it though,could be a plot hole but guy was about to be decapitated so maybe he was convinced and just believes it was a fair fight because Ulfric said it was.
Rogvir isn't an Imperial soldier, so his alliegence is to the king of Solitude, the High King. If the HK was killed in an honorable duel then Ulfric is the High King Apparent. Assuming Rogvir knows this, then he's not actually betraying anyone except possibly the Empire. If Nord law is that the duel was legal, then Ulfric did no wrong and can leave. If Rogvir prevents him, he's defying nord law. If he was ordered to not let Ulfric leave, then his guilt depends on whether you believe the Nuremberg Defense is invalid, "I was just following orders." In our world, if you know your orders violate the law, you can be held accountable if you choose to follow them. It seems likely the Stormcloaks would have executed Rogvir for this reason had he prevented Ulfric from leaving.
From a nord perspective, however you cut it, it appears Rogvir did nothing wrong. His execution was a war crime.
However, we don't know what the Empire's rules of occupation are. He could have been executed according to Imperial law. Which means he was damned whatever he chose to do.
Isn't this simply an issue of conflicts between nord common law, and imperial law?
The civil war was the best written part of Skyrim's story by far. Not a mere power fantasy, or a good vs bad. No matter how you look at it, both sides are right in their own way.
Of course it was a good vs bad. You had the stormcloaks, and you had the sissy empire too weak to rule themselves but brand you traitors for wanting to rule yourself.
The empire right now bends over and takes it up the ass from the thalmor, and yet tries to force it's control over others. I'll remind you the empire was winning at the end of the war, the emperor sold the empire out to spare cyrodiil the hardship of war, they even had to bribe local leaders such as jarls in order to keep them from rebelling. Hammerfell already proved the empire could beat the thalmor, they were simple too cowardly to try.
This game is over 10 years old and people are still debating the civil war
34:38 I think Ulfric was probably an only son, and that perhaps being a Greybeard is a higher honor than being a Jarl's heir. With that said I want to devil's advocate that position and say that "his only son" could mean "his only remaining son." While this is unlikely, it's plausible enough that someone could reasonably consider it canon until proven otherwise.
It definitely could mean his only son, at the time.
yea, i understood it as only remaining son.
15:02 as someone who likes to use analogies in day to day conversations I’m glad you did to make that clearer!
I remember playing skyrim a good while back , and remember seeing information in the dossier when you go to the thalmor embassy that the thalmor do not want "Either" side to win the civil war so basically they're admitting that if the empire wins it strengthens the empire for round 2 and also if the stormcloaks win it means skyrim will probably launch a pre-emptive strike on the high elves/thalmor and catch them off guard perhaps?.
Either way , i doubt in ES6 that the thalmor/high elves would of taken over tamriel again..don't most ES games take place 100 to 200 years after the last one or something like that?.
ES Arena and Oblivion take place between 35 years of each other with the events of Daggerfall and Morrowind happening between them, Skyrim takes place 201 years after Oblivion.
yea Skyrim is the only one with a major time jump like that. The first four all take place during the reign of Uriel Septim
The thalmor are also probably still recovering from the war, because elves don’t reproduce at the same rate as men. The empire may very well be ready for round 2, but with Skyrim in rebellion they can’t focus their forces on the thalmor and the thalmor know it, and that’s why they’re trying to keep the civil war going. If the storm cloaks win, the empire is weaker, sure, but likely still stronger than them, and now their armies are bloodied and battle tested, and if the empire wins, they have another province of legions to call upon, who, again, are battle tested and ready for war in a way the elven armies just aren’t.
I don't think Skyrim would be weaker without the Empire
Skyrim is borded by insane moutain range and other countries that the Aldmeri Dominion would have to cross first, before enterring Skyrim
Skyim in itself is one of the least hospitable land in Tamriel and jts people are warriors and hates elves
Warriors who care more about their way of life than their coinpurses. Few people are as dangerous as one who doesn't care about getting paid to fight for what he believes in.
I wouldn't say that. While the moutains create a natural stronghold the cold land is an easily nullified aspect due to aldmeri magic and while skyrim has no shortage of willing fighters they lack funding and resources for equipment especially to deal with magic.
We also have to remember the majority of stormcloaks are untrained due to being rebels they arent actual warriors and a majority of their funding comes from the aldmeri dominion itself
The Dominion would attack via the sea most likely instead of the Pale Pass.
@@apostleianloveletteHistorically. Such peoples were always easy to conquer and annihilate.
@@just_bladeok2041 Magic isn’t that OP in Elder Scrolls on a 1V1 combatant basis. It’s also somewhat niche is not every caster is proficient in destruction or conjuration, as soldiers Altmer fall short on being physically able to hold frontlines for extended periods of time and wouldn’t be reliable to labor tasks that other armies can, they’d rely on Bosmer and Khajiit auxiliaries to be fodder. None of these do particularly well in melee where as Nords are exceptional warriors on average with a home field advantage. Also more importantly the logistics for a Dominion invasion of Skyrim would be abysmal, they’re on the other side of Tamriel so even coming in by sea would be ridiculous.
There is actually some fairly clever political intrigue in Skyrim.
The dominion intentionally drove a wedge between Skyrim and the Empire through the banning of Talos worship.
And the documents you find in the Aldmeri Embassy saying they’ve secretly supplied the stormcloaks so they can fight the Empire to a standstill is reflective of Real world politics.
Where the story fails (from a player POV) is there is no way to bring this to the Empire or Ulfric Stormcloak.
Where Ulfric fails… is not talking to the High King. That may have better united Skyrim.
Your guess that Ulfric is not the eldest child of his father because he was sent to the greybeards seems false since Ulfric himself at some point says he's the only child to the 'Great Bear of Windhelm'. He may be lying, but why would he?
Yeah looks like the writers didn’t really think that one through
Yep. That's author bias getting in the way of reliable narration.
He might mean he's currently the only child. He could've still had siblings before the great war.
@@A-Gaymer thats a good way to reconcile it
Did he say only child, or only son?
So essentially Ulfric has valid points and concerns, reasonable even if they somehow weren’t valid. However, he can’t see the bigger picture or even begin to understand the responsibilities of the empire. So it’s all grey but leaning more towards the empire being the closest to the best option.
Randomly had this recommended to me and decided to watch; Not even realizing who uploaded it lol.
Was a very pleasant surprise to hear an old and familiar commentary :) glad to be back
Thank you Fudgemuppet!
I hope you and your families are doing well. 😊
I feel like actually fighting the civil war was a the wrong thing of the empire to do. The ultimate bad guy is the thalmor, and i dont see Ulfric not helping the empire in a war against the thalmor. A win in skyrim for the empire will weaken skyrim as a millitary region for the empire a lot, and it will weaken the empire as a whole, maybe less than just giving skyrim away in a "civil war"
To be fair to the Empire I dont think they really had a choice in the matter.
If Ulfric has behaved a bit more diplomatically and either convinced Toryyg to declare Skyrim Independent or having spared Torygg and became high King himself and declare independence then I think the Empire would be much less likely to intervene.
@@anonymousanon6913 Thats very true, but as the posistion stands i feel like a small intervetion from the empire would be the tight way as they wouldnt loose as much. But the right choice would be the peaceful choice, and an alliance with the empire against the thalmor.
The empire is biding it's time. It currently can't fight the thalmor, and so thetormcloaks must be destroyed. Letting them riegn free would've invited the dominion, leading to either A) skyrim being destroyed and a week empire or B) the empire fights a war they will lose. No alliance would've helped at this point. Best they can do is secure skyrim, even if it's weaker. Also, by biding time, it allows other allies, skyrim included, more recovery.
@@CalebMcGinty This all assumes the Empire is actually concerned with going to war with the Thalmor and has doing so as a priority, which I dont see any proof of.
@@anonymousanon6913 there is. They've sent troops to the border with the aldmerie, and tullius mentions peace not lasting between the empire and the dominion after an imperial victory at windhelm. Also, they don't plan on starting it, the dominion will.
Enjoyed that, thanks. Been a few years since I've played the game but your "cinematography" made me want to visit again soon. And you shared the backstory & sociopolitical atmosphere quite well.
BABE WAKE UP, NEW FUDGEMUPPET ELDER SCROLLS CONTENT JUST DROPPED!
You know Skyrim was an amazing game when it came out 13 years ago and it’s still a thing to talk about
Awesome video, but I think you forgot to mention one thing about the Nords who fight for the Empire. The Empire was good to Skyrim for 1,000 years, and while the Nords fighting for it aren't happy with recent events, the Imperial-loyal Nords have a sense of honor and duty to the Empire that only recently started to let them down. These men and women feel that the Stormcloaks have abandoned all honor by turning on a thousand year old friendship when those allies need their help and patience the most.
Ah finally Skyrim. Fudgemuppet I have missed u.
So great to see a nuanced discussion that doesn't appear to take any bias. I'm so sick of hearing "Empire is cooked" and "Ulfric is racist."
The funny part of the "Ulfric is racist!!!1!1" argument is that it means absolutely nothing in-universe because EVERYONE in the Elder Scrolls is racist in one way, shape, or form
Thanks
A lore video indeed. Thanks Scott! Hope you're well.
In my opinion I can see the Empire signing a peace treaty with Ulfric especially if Titus's replacement is more por Talos and anti Dominion.
Doubtful. Ulfric seems unwilling to fight to defend the Empire or the Imperials wouldn't trust him.
Honestly in order for anything like you mentioned were to come to light then the Mede dynasty needs to die. They have proven far too corrupt and so if a new dynasty rose up and actually had a backbone but thats likely to never happen. Its hard to grow a backbone when you're in a land governed by weak leaders
I think it might be possible. Ultimately priority isn't really against the thalmor solely, it's for independent skyrim. If the empire, and as such the thalmor, are rid from Skyrim I could see his concerns against the empire ending at that extent.
@@badluck5647 More likely the Thalmor would attempt to attack Skyrim. The only way to invade for them is through Cyrodiil. They try to invade, the Empire betrays them, the Thalmor army is destroyed, and the Stormcloaks and Empire make peace.
Pretty easy narrative.
@@TheLastKentuckyIrregular9524 You know Skyrim has a coast?
The funniest thing is that from a viewpoint of having the approval of the gods, the respect of all the major competing groups, (as in the ability to get them together and give deference to your opinions/decisions) and just from the standpoint of plain old power, the clear choice for Emperor would be none other than Mr/Ms. Dragonborn.
32:24 Galmar is likely the double agent influencing Ulfric. From their conversations, he's the one that ensures Ulfric continues to be an asset. Of course, Galmar appears to hate the Dominion, as any good double agent would.
Never thought about it like that but it makes a lot of pieces fall into place.
I disagree with this on the principle of Galmar's Sovngarde dialogue, where he disavows the Dragonborn for dogging his steps into the afterlife and says the True King will cast them out, which only really tracks with his presented position as Ulfric's most zealous supporter. He would have no reason to put on such façades in death if they were in fact façades
I would say that it is wholly understandable for the stormcloaks to desire independence, and that Skyrim by the nature of it's location and terrain is well equipped to push back a foreign invasion from either the Dominion or Empire as both must choose between a naval landing on harsh coast known for horrid weather or to go through the Jeralls and by extension the Pale Pass or to trek about further to pass through the Drudachs. All of these factors combined with the weather and time to consolidate resources and manpower leave a independent Skyrim well off to survive whatever may threaten them. Now I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong as this is designed to be consistently debatable topic to provoke community interaction, but rather the assertion that an independent Skyrim can't survive without Imperial aid is at least partially if not wholly incorrect.
Also an independent Skyrim while lacking Imperial resources and trade would also be free of their taxes, and their state monopoly in the East Empire Company. They would also have the opportunities to trade with nations like Hammerfell and Morrowind though Morrowind is an unlikely trade partner it is another opportunity for Skyrim to grow in spite of cutting their previous ties.
This is my all time favorite take on the Civil War!
I'd actually like to challenge the idea that the Empire is pragmatic.
From the very beginning, they understood that the Thalmor desired them to become embroiled in a civil war. They KNEW, and yet still decided to prosecute a war that would only result in their enemy's empowerment by virtue of wasting resources and personnel.
This is only "pragmatic", if one holds the irrational belief that only a Tamriel united beneath the yoke of Imperial rule, can stand against the Dominion.
The Empire is so blinded by its hunger for hegemony, that they refused to even consider... allying with an indepedent Skyrim they simply cut loose.
The idea that an indepedent Skyrim would sit out a second Great War is patently absurd. Disingenuous, even. However, the Empire is so used to sitting at the center of the world, at commanding, rather than cooperating, it never entered the calculus that another way was possible. They are so bogged down by Machiavellian realpolitik, that anything other than absolute authority is off the table.
That is not pragmatic; it is disconnected from reality, and dare I say... idealistic.
The Stormcloaks are militarily inferior to the Legion.
Also letting enemy agents roam your land isn't very pragmatic
@@dutchpatriot17 Defenders always have the advantage in warfare and Skyrim is the best region in Tamriel for defense.
@@devinmes1868 That does not disprove what I said.
I thought the crux of the imperial’s argument was that the use of shouting made the duel illegal, no different to starting a duel by shooting your unprepared opponent with a boe
I don't think it was the crux of the Empire's argument, in so much as it was the argument of some traditionalist Nords who believe the duel was dishonored by cheating with The Voice. It is an idea that Tullius latched on to and serves as one justification for Ulfric's execution. That's why so many characters are constantly mentioning that Ulfric killed Torygg with a Shout. Its a big deal.
@ I thought tullius and the less traditional nords (such as the high king’s wife) were the ones pushing the illegality of the shout. Whereas everyone else was undecided because no one had used the shout in a high king’s duel before. (And of course ulfric maintains that the shout is completely legal)
I love that you can still make content of this game this many years later.
Babe its time for another 200 hour skyrim playthrough because i watched a lore video
Instead of playing Skyrim again I’m finish a Morrowind and oblivion playthrough
If I was an elf, I'd be pissed off with humanity trying to overwrite Auriel's save file with Akatosh. Also, they do seek to end the world, not rule it ultimately, which is unironically a more achievable goal for them.
The end the world thing is a theory based on writings from a ex writer for Bethesda Michael Kirkbride
So it could be true but it could also not be true
It literally doesn't matter what they call him. Even Gelebor, a guy spending his extra long snow elven life to his worship says no matter what you call him, that's still the same guy. Still, Auri-El sucks. Lorkhan all the way.
@virdamofromko-metru1161 they turned him into a dragon and gave him a moderately different personality. They aren't exactly the same thing, they're only similar in broad strokes. lt's a noticeable difference, so Gelebor is coping a bit if you ask me.
@@wolves600 I kind of believe that that's what Bethesda is going for anyway. Mainly I'm getting that from the College of Winterhold quest with Ancano. When he starts using the Eye of Magnus, he is pretty clear that he wants to use it to end the world. Now technically we don't know if Ancano went rogue or that the Thalmor wanted that to happen, but with the other Thalmor agent that attacks you in the Labyrinthian it seems to lean to Thalmor wants to end the world.
Well done boys, great one! Looking forward the next ideal ES6 vid! This makes me wanna go back and listen to your Reman in-universe story about his life Scott. Cheers
"Unfair or dishonorable" isn't really a fair way to portray it either. The Nords are people of strength, if the High King gets absolutely annihilated that easily by one he commands, he isn't fit to be High King, that's how Nords work.
This is why Skyrim works and Starfield doesn't. There are deeper things to analyze when breaking down the conflict between the core factions. In Starfield there is no conflict between the core factions.
Starfield feels empty.
What an amazing vid. Seriously impressed, especially by your nuanced approach!
God, this video was so utterly perfect. I cannot thank you enough for making it. You have voiced the thoughts that I have been voicing for 13 years with varying degrees of success in the quest of getting it through to my audience. There isn't a right or wrong side on this conflict, there's tons of reasons to support one and fight the other, and ultimately it's a matter of where your heart lies. I belong to a historically oppressed nation, culturally different from its hegemon, its identity eroded and replaced by that of our sovereigns. The call to defend Skyrim's freedom and identity from those that would see both stripped away for practicality resonated with me from the moment I saw the trailer and realized Skyrim was fighting a war for independence. Don't get me wrong, I love the Septims and their Empire, but when I played Oblivion all I could think of was of my first Hero of Kvatch, a Nord, returning home to stir a rebellion against imperial rule now that the last Dragonborn Emperor was gone. Skyrim was a dream made true when it came out and I could actually fight for Skyrim's freedom, and so many people are all too eager to call you a bigot for this choice (I'm disabled and bisexual, but being white is enough to being dumped in the same sack as them n4zis). From now on, instead of a tired rant on why I make my choice and why it is a legitimate one, I will refer them to this video. Thank you for making it ❤
Also, a point I rarely see brought up is the fact the Empire could barely survive the Dominion and lost a war to them with four provinces fully pacified, with their manpower intact and no civil unrest. Now people expect the Empire to be able to beat the Dominion if they defeat the rebels, as if they didn't have one full fewer province from which to pull resources and manpower, a very debilitated and restless Skyrim and a Cyrodiil that I expect to still be reeling from the Great War, and depleted enough that the Legion had to recruit any local that came asking in Skyrim due to their difficulties to replenish losses. Much as I love the Bretons, I don't see them carrying the war effort on their own, specially not with Thalmor agents and spies everywhere in the Empire predicting every move of the Legions prior to the war declaration. The most reasonable means of defeating the Dominion and the Thalmor would be through a coalition of nations in equal footing and allied for the purpose of their defeat, not through nations bound by bondage to a bruised hegemon keeping half of its only two subjects in chains, grumbling and bloodied after beating it into submission. But that's just me, heh
I think letting the Thalmor just walk around spying on everything and getting their agents everywhere is proof that the Empire isn't serious. We know they assassinate people, spread lies and propaganda. They want to encourage the Civil War, so why does the Empire let them move unimpeded, and harden opposition to the WG Concordant?
It's so upsetting that the Civil War questline ingame kind of sucks dick. I wanted so much more from it.
I originally liked Stormcloaks, but after thinking a bit harder about it.. I think the Imperials are the more ideal protector of Skyrim. There's a lot about the Stormcloaks that just doesn't sit right with me after thorough analysis, and whilst the Imperials aren't perfect, and the first impression you get at Helgen certainly doesn't help their case, they're a lot more level headed.
There is a LOT of clues in the game that also indicate that Ulfric's claim for High King of Skyrim isn't particularly just, which can go unnoticed if you don't pay close attention. Torygg himself hints something like that in Sovengarde.
There's more details I want to talk about too, but I'm going to try and keep it brief instead.
I just love the sheer amount of detail that went into the story and narrative of the Civil War, honestly. It's genuinely interesting, and it's especially cool that we're still bickering over who's actually in the right to this very day. A good sign they did a great job with writing it, if not implementing it.
The "protectors" of Skyrim outlawed the worship of one of it's gods and allows thalmor agents to kidnap Talos worshipers and take them to the Skyrim equivalent of Guantanamo Bay.
@@koolaidman4869 but they also just let people worship talos without consequence (bulgruff heimskr etc) the thalmor are only interving because the stormcloaks rebellion and only signed the white gold concordot to buy time to regain there numbers and are activally requireing ierfutable proof before letting the thalmor take action (and are not happy about it)
The Imperials are allowing the Thalmor to patrol their streets, step up bases in their holds disguised as "embassies" and have them within their ranks. If a second war starts, they'd have to waste resources just removing the strategic advantage that the Dominion already has.
They've been on a constant decline since the start of the fourth era, and in the event of a second great war, they wouldn't even have Hammerfell to help them because they sold Hammerfell out to the Dominion. They will not be able to defeat the Dominion in a second war.
Skyrim is fully capable of defending themselves in guerrilla warfare due to their natural terrain advantages. Skyrim is more defensible than Hammerfell and Hammerfell was able to repel Dominion forces from their land.
The Empire will only drag Skyrim down with them.
Been slowly watching this video. I am really glad you did a somewhat deep dive into this. Not too many people actually understand the full background or lead up to why Ulfric started the civil war. It's not black or white, and the Nords prejudice. There is A LOT of hurt there and people often write it off as just racism.
Lastly, an uprising was going to happen, and usually when it does happen support comes from a lot of places; even behind enemy lines.
47:10 quick question, where in the Constitution of America does it say that the Government and religion shall be separated ? Spoiler: it doesn’t. It only says that there will be no state sponsored religion
Well, to counter: when the state support and sponsor a certain faith, is it not state and religion united as one?
These long videos give me life
A bit late to the party, but amazing work on this video. Both on the actual content and the form of the video !
Finaly some one IS reviving this great game ❤🎉😢
as if it was dead
Lol the modding community is active as fuck plus a lot of players still playing this game you can see that real time on steam
@@kenxinhxc1635 nice