I built two Marshall 18W amps so I could do direct comparisons. One built with Orange Drops and the other with Mallory caps. In the end neither my friend Frank or I could hear any difference between the two amps.
I think it's less about brands than it is parasitic ESL/ESR values, which can alter its filtering characteristics. But I agree, in a double-blind test, few could tell the difference, and even fewer, which ones had the "better" quality capacitors.
Then you didn't do something right if you didn't hear a difference. I take that back, did you feel the difference?? Did you even think to compare how they felt when you played the exact same riff the exact same way on both amps?? Alot of people say they can't hear a difference in cap/resistor types but that don't mean it's a myth. There is a guideline tobuse certain material types in certain spots but it's not set in stone. Try a tantalum cap in a critical tone affecting area instead of the normal cheap blue metal oxide ones. And changing values is the way to make the biggest difference. Certain values are specific to having either a dominate low end, or prominent mid range... lower treble values can lessen the ice picky vibe alot of amps have. Changing components does work tho. Hifi collective is a great place to buy $60 caps/resistors
Really nice to see the playing demonstrations are consistent and feature playing styles that are similar to what a recording artist would actually play (not just random soloing). Great video!
My apologies for my comments on your earlier video; you found the road all by yourself. Kudos for giving RobRob his props...the guy is a gem. If I might point it out, RobRob's suggested lead mod for the amp offers an extreme change of tone, but you could implement something less drastic if you wish. Try a 1uF cap with a 2.2K resistor to start, and then adjust and test as necessary. The NFB loop does make a lot of sense for these. Keep up the good work...
A+ on the video Mike. I have built six 5E3 amps for family and friends, but I still learned some things from your clear explanation of the caps and mods that you have tried. The sound clips for comparison were great. Thanks, dude.
Also, thanks for mentioning that you couldn't really tell the difference between capacitors....this industry has WAY too much hype that causes people to spend way too much money and get disappointed as a result....nice playing BTW!
I put the weber 12A125A , the #1 suggestion for the Deluxe Tweed sound ! I also built a 5F1 (tweed champ) and made it in a cab for a 12" speaker and yes a Weber in there too.
Rob Robinettes is full of cool mods not only for 5e3. Has many pages which also explain basic stuff about tube amps. Definitely to check out if you're up for a tube amp build!!
This is my favourite part of building or restoring an amp. I like to get speakers that have a quality I like, be that the resonant peaks or the breakup then I like to get a bias point that compliments that. Then the coupling caps for more or less bass.. filter caps for more or less firm bottom end .. how they sound with my guitars and pedals ..tweaking the input grid stoppers etc. Once you get an amp "perfect" they are a joy. The difference all this little tweaking makes to the end product is insane.
Inspiring! I’m gonna do it! Wanted to for ages but I’m finally gonna do it. Also love the tweed super too, would love to build one of those at some point!
The way I A-B components, not necessarily to look at different brands but to see which value resistor or capacitor sounds better. I use 2 alligator clip leads and clip the component in as it dangles, play for a while and get an idea of the sound, test voltages it desired and clip an alternative in. I can't tell much tonal difference in capacitor or resistor types except maybe ceramic capacitors as coupling capacitors add a sort of growl.
I have a LP and a Tele, but man that last bit with your Strat sounded delightful.. Love your vids man, very different from a lot of people, wish you the best. Maybe one day you could do a Fender Deluxe build and give us great cleans too! Cheers from Quebec! 🍻
Depending on what vintage tube you experimented with can make a big difference. Vintage is vague. I bought a clone 5E3 that came with JJ's. And it sounded great. I fell in love with it on the first strum of the guitar. I wanted to experiment with the whole vintage tube thing myself as the forums were all over the place on the difference between vintage and modern tubes. I also wanted to get the JJ's out of it as per the advise of a really good amp tech. He has seen them damage amps because of the way the go when they go. After trying some vintage tubes of different values , ax/5751/at/ay/au, in a different amp waiting for my 5E3 build, about 2 months, I also wanted to try the tubes that would have came in the amps in the tweed era. Mainly the RCA's. I wanted to get as close to the real deal as I could. The cost of RCA's from the 50's are very expensive. I ended up with low to mid 50's RCA's across the board. And the magic that came from it was really something. Especially with some early 50's 6V6s. Most people wouldn't care and most guitar players are deaf in the areas of mid/highs and highs to even notice all the harmonic beauty and glassy gorgeous highs that are not shrill and ice picky. And everything is subjective. Just because one guy likes it and another doesn't is ok. For me, at the volumes I play at, which are low most of the time 10 to 12 o'clock, they reign supreme in every way. I use the long black plate 12ax7. over 200.00 each. Ouch. I also like to record close mic and stock (no nfb) makes processing a nightmare. Mine came with a little 3 way switch that has stock/a little/a little more nfb, and he hiss gets less annoying with little and really cleans up with the little more nfb but sounds sterile. The middle position is perfect for me. I never use the setting with the most nfb. When not recording close mic, i really like the stock setting when I want a little more grit. I can't hear the hiss when standing 6 feet or more from the amp and off to side a little. I usually play right in front of it at ear level because that is what the mic hears, and I want to hear that for dialing in for recording. Mine came with an UK Alnico Gold and I love it. I do want to try a 50's p12q but like old RCA's they are as rare as hens teeth and twice as expensive. I will buy one when the right one comes along. I have to know what the 5E3 sounded like back then with their upgraded speaker. With what most would call subtle differences in the tones from the tubes if any at all, are huge to me. Yet you can't hear those difference in recordings, for the most part, especially if there is any compression where you use it, like youtube for example. There is no way to share it unless you are in the room. The 5E3 is cathode biased. If you use the factory spec on the bias, you have to use the vintage power tubes or the JJ's. If you decide to try some early RCA 6v6's, get some that are not perfectly matched. If you have a way to check the bias, I prefer 4mA difference. Output trannies can vary per tube. One side can run a little hotter then the other. So you have to swap the tubes around and check the bias and listen. I use Eurotubes v2 meters. I bought 2 meters to make the process painless. They give the plate voltage and the mA. They are a must have easily checking bias and tubes. Just because the tubes you purchase are listed as matched, does not mean they are. Or that they will remain so after shipping and using. My three main guitars are CS Strat and Tele with Josefina Campos winds, and a Vintage Tokai LP with modern pots wired 50's with oil and paper bumble bee like caps. Those guitars also play a huge role in the tones I get. I also have a 2k Strat and it is a good one and sounds like a modern Strat should sound. A must have in the arsenal. But very bland compared to all the harmonic beautiful character I get from the magical scatter winds of my vintage copies. My 5E3 is my favorite amp. I love that thing and will have it till my last day. For 80's tones and plexi tones I use a SLO-30 with Vintage tubes in a few of the pre-amp slots and some vintage 7581a power tubes. That thing is also amazing. It's hook up to a 2x12 with creamback 65 and a v30. I'm going to swap some different speakers in place of the V30 as the highs are a little shrill at times. Might try a Alnico creme and a few other Celestians in it's place.
@@MichaelWWestbrook Looking forward to the Plexi video. When I recover from this series (LOL), I’m going to do a build video of an amp I prototyped a few years ago. That will probably be late fall early winter.
Very interesting video, thank you! I'd like to say I tried the NFB mod but my 5E3 sounds best stock (without negative feedback) ! Imho, the most useful mod I did was reducing signal caps from .1 to .022 and installing a pre-phase inverter master volume.
Agreed! I like mine stock (with the smaller caps) or the Cathode bypass engaged. It’s rare I use the Neg feedback mode. It is nice for big over drive sounds though. Tightens things up a little bit
Great sound with the Tele custom..thanks for your hard work , it helps. The " Stock" setting sounded great on all Guitars. Leave that amp as is and look for another classic, maybe an El84 style amp like Vox?
I came for the amp mods, but stayed for the playing. Had to pause the video so I could learn that finger plucked strat groove!!! Awesome stuff Michael!
I built one a while back, not from a kit, so it doesn't look like a fender amp. You should come over one day and check out the setup and compare notes. At a glance, the 5E3 circuit has no negative feedback, so I could see how that modification might clean up the early breakup on those tweed amps. Adding a properly ranged pot would give a finely adjustable choice for the negative feedback rather than a resistance in line with a switch.
Holy smokes your intro song you put together is incredible! If you ever sell that track I want to buy it. Dang that was good! Was all that using the 5E3?
@@Ton7Tube I've tried this before but you also get the noise from the other channel adding up.......I did the mod and now it's perfect.....On NF you can play a clean les paul on "band" level...that's what I was after....For Fender I just take it normal....If I want to go super clean I just play my Bassman.......
The neg feed back increases clean headroom. That Trinity amp has increased filter cap values doesn't it?? Also the cap in the phase inverter to black face value takes the flubby bass out.
Thanks for the great info!! I'm still auditioning speakers in my 5e3 and the changes are dramatic. After that, I'd like to explore the negative feedback mods... The only thing I miss on my 5e3 is a reverb circuit, but that would probably change the amps vibe,,, besides it's beyond my skills to add reverb.....
Check out my latest video comparing the HX Stomp to my 5e3. I got a Weber 12a125-a recently and use IR’s I made from that speaker. It’s a great fit for the 5e3! I prefer it over the Celestion Gold I have been using.
Just build or buy yourself a SurfyBear reverb (JFet clone of Fender Reverb Unit). I hope you will be able to find the kit or assembled unit, cause they no longer supply them as DIY kit. Real shame, cause it's truly great and affordable way to get that surf reverb sound and beyond just by swapping reverb tanks.
I enjoy your videos. I watched the build video before i built my kit and it gave me confidence. Lately I've been going down the same mod rabbit hole. Did the NFB and love it. Ended up using 68k feedback resistor, curious what you used? Also tweaked my coupling caps - I opted to let the normal channel be a little deeper, with a 0.068 (still lower than stock value) and the bright channel a little less so, with 0.022. Left the others stock. I'm curious do you have a master volume in there? It looks like it but I could not see close enough on my phone :) I tried pre and post phase inverter, and both seem to work fine, but I'm trying to decide if I want to keep it on the underside of the amp, or put it where the ground switch was, and figure out the shielded cable solution, like Rob suggests. So many options, right? Thanks again. BTW, I really dig your playing and the tones you coax out of the gear!
Thanks! No master on mine. For me, I'm not sure I really need it right now... Most of my playing since building the amp has been at home or in a studio setting because of Covid. My experience might change once I get out playing live again but who knows when that'll be? Again, thanks for the kind words!
@@MichaelWWestbrook thanks for replying -- the master volume isn't fantastic on this amp anyway. even with audio taper, the volume reduction doesn't really kick in until lower third of the potentiometer range. what i did find super useful if you're looking for a way to quiet the amp for home playing is to build the 10% power switch that rob robinette describes on his site. i built it into an old guitar pedal housing, and it does a great job of reducing the perceived volume by half or so.
(To me) all the sound comparisons sounded better w/the NFB loop activated. I got a 5E3 kit to about 70% finished - and it's been sitting that way for almost 5 years now. I'm really thinking to get it finished now. I'll for sure be putting in that 3 way NFB loop mod. I'm building it as a head though - to make it easier to swap around between my cabs
Some days there is a variance in the incoming power voltage, which can alter the sound and feel of the output of the same amp. I have found the amps I liked best had a good set of iron in them.
Great post! That negative feedback mod sounds great, and right up my alley! I bought mine 5e3 off Reverb. The guy who sold it to me said the guy who build it for him had done some mod to tighten up the low end? Not sure if he just change the cap value, or did something more extensive? It’s loaded with a Celestion Blue, breaks up around 3/4, gets mushy when cranked...I like it edge of breakup. I really love the harmonically rich, bell like tone, compressed breakup of the 5e3, but would love a little bit more clean headroom sometimes. Probably out of my comfort zone to do by myself?
I've got to replace a bad input jack on mine anyhow, now I'm thinking about getting rid of one input on each channel and using the two leftover holes for a three way switch and a 50k pot in series with a 10k resistor to make the amount of negative feedback continuously adjustable. Maybe also get rid of the extension speaker output and use that jack for the footswitch Rob suggests.
Congrats dude, great tone and sound all round. Can you please tell me, is the only amp overdrive used in the guitar recordings, or is there an OD pedal on the chain?
I saw you used this amp with Good Trouble over on Rhett Shull's channel. Mind giving us an update on its current state? I just ordered a kit to build one myself, thanks in part to your videos.
Great video! Might do the NFB switch mod myself this evening... looking at rob robinettes site it seems its simply a switch, a resistor and a bypass of the 22uf/1.5k components.. is that really all there is to it? Sounds great!
Yeah! I used some shrink wrap as well to make sure the cap that’s lifted doesn’t short out on anything nearby as well. Some folks use a little epoxy to secure it but I felt good about my solution as it all seems to be pretty secure.
@@MichaelWWestbrook ahh so did you wire it point to point? I've seen some folks install a turret for the connection which I don't really understand. Thanks for the advice man, I'll give it a bash tonight!
Yeah, there’s really just one resistor and the bypass cap that “float”. They don’t move around so I’ve got no reservations about doing it that way. I’m not sure exactly where but I show it in the video.
@@MichaelWWestbrook well I did the mod.. wow! I think this amp will be staying in the "middle" position a lot.. really liking that. Like having a new amp (or two new amps!)
I with you, I really like that middle position! The NFB position loses a bit more top end than I’d like sometimes (though I do like having the option). Glad it worked out for you!!
As an electronics R&D engineer, I can tell you that capacitor types don't make as much difference as you think, but the values do. It's mostly down to tubes, gain, bias and negative feedback (or lack of) and speakers. If you can't hear the difference, then don't worry about it.
Yeah, not sure I could tell the difference! Especially not being able to A/B them quickly. I’m also sure minor differences in values (because of variance) would make a small difference between caps from even the same manufacturer
@@MichaelWWestbrook There surely will be a difference, caps have 10% tolerance and pots have 20% tolerance in general. It's also why two identical guitar pedals do not sound the same, when set up on the same position.
@@MichaelWWestbrook And thank you a lot for posting your videos on 5e3, it was truly inspiring and educational. I'm going to build my own from the TAD kit (I'm in Europe).
Man i love the tweed sound! Would you be able to install a PPIMV in these amps? I'm not too much of a fan of attenuators and I'd really like to get those 5e3 tones at bedroom volumes.
Yes you totally can. There is also an option offered by Trinity and others that allows you turn the voltage down. This is considered a better option by most but I personally haven’t tried it.
@@MichaelWWestbrook I did it to my Trinity 5E3 and it works awesome. He calls it a "VRM Module" and can be added for less than $50. Easy mod that works better than I expected.
I have a 5e3 I’ve been wanting to do some mods to. The NFB is a for sure one to have the option of more headroom. I put a mid cut in one a few years ago and I don’t remember how I did it now. It made it have a Princeton Reverb kind of vibe.
I love that 3 way negative feedback mod.. a lot. I wonder if I can figure out a way to get it without drilling any holes in my real, vintage 1958 Fender. If there was a non destructive way to do that, I'd seriously consider it...
I knew what you were going to say you modded before you even said it. I build my own amps, coupling cap value really can firm up the flubby fender bottom end.
@@MichaelWWestbrook That would be very cool, I have enjoyed all your videos about the real amps vs the HX stomp version. I know the stomp gets close enough for me, right now anyway. I have a FSR BassBreaker 15 the one with the green tolex wheat colored grill cloth and a celestion greenback. It is a great amp but the stomp is so convenient that it gets a lot more play time then the amp. But still when I just want to plug in and play that amp is just awesome. It has enough gain for 2 amps the hall reverb is great and it will scream with just the flip of a switch. If I feel like messing around I use the stomp, nI can get some really killer sounds from it as well. Just not as easy, and together they worked even better until I got a Powercab 112 plus now its a whole new toy again with all the excitement of getting a new amp because it breathes life into old presets and you can get some really great sounds out of it.
Can’t remember exactly where I got it but I get a lot of stuff from Amplified Parts. I’ve also gotten a few switches from Amazon but that can be hit or miss
I have question if you don't mind (amp related ) I have a champion 100. that has two tap speed control (both channels) Cant the tap buttons be changed out to the older style rotary style pots.
Fantastic demonstration tracks, congrats. I mod every amp I build, can't help myself. I look at vintage Fender designs as a starting point, not some holy grail. These amps weren't designed by electrical engineers, more like some dude with an RCA tube manual, and a penny pincher looking over his shoulder. Lots of questionable design choices.
Great video. I was looking for an example of the robrob deluxe as I just started rebuilding a vintage motorola record player amp. I've got original 5y3, motorola 6v6, 12au7 and 6au6. I think you did a really great job capturing the amp audio.
New subscriber, having found your channel from the 5E3 videos. I'm thinking of building one myself and appreciate your perspective on everything. Thanks for all the info! Curious what other gear you were using for the music at about 1:37, if you still remember :). Sounded great!
Thanks for watching! Everything was the amp going into a Two Notes Captor with IR’s that I created. I’ve talked about it in a few videos. All gain is from the amp except maybe the slide part might be boosted with a Klon style overdrive. Verb and and any delay added in the mix.
I’d look at the options Weber as well as theJensens (they are known to be brighter and great for Fender stuff). All of the options can be intimidating but start out with the different 12a125 options or the 12f125/12f150 ones. The regular 12a125 is on the darker side so look at the different cone/dope versions to see which is brighter.
Michael, this was simply great. I just found you. This may have been answered before, but is there a schematic and parts diagram for the negative feedback switch? I would have no idea where to start. I haven't started my build yet, but I agree with your impressions completely. Now it's like it has to have that mod. Anyway, looking forward to plugging in my soldering iron, even though it looks a little challenging. Thank you so much for this info!
I watch a ton of these types of videos, pedal and amp reviews, synths, etc. And it feels like youtube compression limits the fidelity and thereby the utility of the comparisons. If that assumption by me is correct re youtube etc, it might be a good idea for you to have a patreon page or mailing list that gives access to uncompressed larger file versions of your videos. Would also help drive you developing multiple revenue streams etc. Just an idea.
20uf filter caps? But Can hear you like a modern sounding amp. I like vintage tones. You could just buy a pro jr. Or a blues jr. But I guess some just have the need to mod. If it makes you happy then why do you look so sad...
Anybody who messes with a 5e3 circuit needs the shit knocked out of them. It's perfect as it is, it doesn't need modding. The only "mod" I can understand is if you want to replace the rectifier tube for a Yellow Jacket diode, other than that, why screw up a masterpiece?
HEY GUYS YOUR MAKING IT TOO HARD TO LOWER POWER ON THE 5E3 AMP. HERE IS HOW YOU DOING IT FOR THE BEDROOM PLAYING WITH OUT BURNING UP THE XFROMERS. THIS IS how to drop the B+ down to vintage stock levels. It's easy- used a zener diode on the hv secondary center tap, have a switchable cathode resistor for the 6V6's or use a big 15w 270 or 470ohm dropping resistor right off of the B+ before the board. BY LOWERING THE B+ YOU LOWER WATTAGE !!!! BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE TO USE A 100 OHM 15 - 25 WATTS AND JUST ADD A SWITCH TO PUT RESISTOR RIGHT WHERE IT COME FROM THE 5Y3 RECTIFIER TUBE PIN 8 ... BUT DO MODE AT BOARD.
The slide work on that Duo Jet is marvelous. Dang.
Ohh man, I might have to mod mine now too.
Do it!
I built two Marshall 18W amps so I could do direct comparisons. One built with Orange Drops and the other with Mallory caps. In the end neither my friend Frank or I could hear any difference between the two amps.
I think it's less about brands than it is parasitic ESL/ESR values, which can alter its filtering characteristics. But I agree, in a double-blind test, few could tell the difference, and even fewer, which ones had the "better" quality capacitors.
Then you didn't do something right if you didn't hear a difference. I take that back, did you feel the difference?? Did you even think to compare how they felt when you played the exact same riff the exact same way on both amps?? Alot of people say they can't hear a difference in cap/resistor types but that don't mean it's a myth. There is a guideline tobuse certain material types in certain spots but it's not set in stone. Try a tantalum cap in a critical tone affecting area instead of the normal cheap blue metal oxide ones. And changing values is the way to make the biggest difference. Certain values are specific to having either a dominate low end, or prominent mid range... lower treble values can lessen the ice picky vibe alot of amps have.
Changing components does work tho. Hifi collective is a great place to buy $60 caps/resistors
Really nice to see the playing demonstrations are consistent and feature playing styles that are similar to what a recording artist would actually play (not just random soloing). Great video!
Thanks!
My apologies for my comments on your earlier video; you found the road all by yourself. Kudos for giving RobRob his props...the guy is a gem.
If I might point it out, RobRob's suggested lead mod for the amp offers an extreme change of tone, but you could implement something less drastic if you wish. Try a 1uF cap with a 2.2K resistor to start, and then adjust and test as necessary. The NFB loop does make a lot of sense for these. Keep up the good work...
What a nice playing in the beginning simple but the notes you choose and tone amazing
Thank you! I really appreciate the kind words.
The mark of a real pro! 👍
Bro, I'm glad I found your channel. Keep putting out content!
Thanks! That’s the plan!
A+ on the video Mike. I have built six 5E3 amps for family and friends, but I still learned some things from your clear explanation of the caps and mods that you have tried. The sound clips for comparison were great. Thanks, dude.
Thanks for watching! Glad it was helpful
Also, thanks for mentioning that you couldn't really tell the difference between capacitors....this industry has WAY too much hype that causes people to spend way too much money and get disappointed as a result....nice playing BTW!
Thanks for the great info! I'm going to use the NFB mod for sure,, the link to the mod page is great! Waiting for the amp kit to turn up any day now..
Great opening tune. Nicely done.
Thanks!
I put the weber 12A125A , the #1 suggestion for the Deluxe Tweed sound !
I also built a 5F1 (tweed champ) and made it in a cab for a 12" speaker and yes a Weber in there too.
Ended up with that in mine and I love it!!
Rob Robinettes is full of cool mods not only for 5e3. Has many pages which also explain basic stuff about tube amps. Definitely to check out if you're up for a tube amp build!!
This is my favourite part of building or restoring an amp. I like to get speakers that have a quality I like, be that the resonant peaks or the breakup then I like to get a bias point that compliments that. Then the coupling caps for more or less bass.. filter caps for more or less firm bottom end .. how they sound with my guitars and pedals ..tweaking the input grid stoppers etc.
Once you get an amp "perfect" they are a joy. The difference all this little tweaking makes to the end product is insane.
Inspiring! I’m gonna do it! Wanted to for ages but I’m finally gonna do it.
Also love the tweed super too, would love to build one of those at some point!
The way I A-B components, not necessarily to look at different brands but to see which value resistor or capacitor sounds better. I use 2 alligator clip leads and clip the component in as it dangles, play for a while and get an idea of the sound, test voltages it desired and clip an alternative in. I can't tell much tonal difference in capacitor or resistor types except maybe ceramic capacitors as coupling capacitors add a sort of growl.
Sounds really good!! Nice job!!
Thanks! Still love this amp and it gets used all the time.
I have a LP and a Tele, but man that last bit with your Strat sounded delightful.. Love your vids man, very different from a lot of people, wish you the best. Maybe one day you could do a Fender Deluxe build and give us great cleans too! Cheers from Quebec! 🍻
Thanks!
I like the opening tune.
Depending on what vintage tube you experimented with can make a big difference. Vintage is vague. I bought a clone 5E3 that came with JJ's. And it sounded great. I fell in love with it on the first strum of the guitar. I wanted to experiment with the whole vintage tube thing myself as the forums were all over the place on the difference between vintage and modern tubes. I also wanted to get the JJ's out of it as per the advise of a really good amp tech. He has seen them damage amps because of the way the go when they go. After trying some vintage tubes of different values , ax/5751/at/ay/au, in a different amp waiting for my 5E3 build, about 2 months, I also wanted to try the tubes that would have came in the amps in the tweed era. Mainly the RCA's. I wanted to get as close to the real deal as I could. The cost of RCA's from the 50's are very expensive. I ended up with low to mid 50's RCA's across the board. And the magic that came from it was really something. Especially with some early 50's 6V6s. Most people wouldn't care and most guitar players are deaf in the areas of mid/highs and highs to even notice all the harmonic beauty and glassy gorgeous highs that are not shrill and ice picky. And everything is subjective. Just because one guy likes it and another doesn't is ok. For me, at the volumes I play at, which are low most of the time 10 to 12 o'clock, they reign supreme in every way. I use the long black plate 12ax7. over 200.00 each. Ouch. I also like to record close mic and stock (no nfb) makes processing a nightmare. Mine came with a little 3 way switch that has stock/a little/a little more nfb, and he hiss gets less annoying with little and really cleans up with the little more nfb but sounds sterile. The middle position is perfect for me. I never use the setting with the most nfb. When not recording close mic, i really like the stock setting when I want a little more grit. I can't hear the hiss when standing 6 feet or more from the amp and off to side a little. I usually play right in front of it at ear level because that is what the mic hears, and I want to hear that for dialing in for recording. Mine came with an UK Alnico Gold and I love it. I do want to try a 50's p12q but like old RCA's they are as rare as hens teeth and twice as expensive. I will buy one when the right one comes along. I have to know what the 5E3 sounded like back then with their upgraded speaker. With what most would call subtle differences in the tones from the tubes if any at all, are huge to me. Yet you can't hear those difference in recordings, for the most part, especially if there is any compression where you use it, like youtube for example. There is no way to share it unless you are in the room. The 5E3 is cathode biased. If you use the factory spec on the bias, you have to use the vintage power tubes or the JJ's. If you decide to try some early RCA 6v6's, get some that are not perfectly matched. If you have a way to check the bias, I prefer 4mA difference. Output trannies can vary per tube. One side can run a little hotter then the other. So you have to swap the tubes around and check the bias and listen. I use Eurotubes v2 meters. I bought 2 meters to make the process painless. They give the plate voltage and the mA. They are a must have easily checking bias and tubes. Just because the tubes you purchase are listed as matched, does not mean they are. Or that they will remain so after shipping and using. My three main guitars are CS Strat and Tele with Josefina Campos winds, and a Vintage Tokai LP with modern pots wired 50's with oil and paper bumble bee like caps. Those guitars also play a huge role in the tones I get. I also have a 2k Strat and it is a good one and sounds like a modern Strat should sound. A must have in the arsenal. But very bland compared to all the harmonic beautiful character I get from the magical scatter winds of my vintage copies. My 5E3 is my favorite amp. I love that thing and will have it till my last day. For 80's tones and plexi tones I use a SLO-30 with Vintage tubes in a few of the pre-amp slots and some vintage 7581a power tubes. That thing is also amazing. It's hook up to a 2x12 with creamback 65 and a v30. I'm going to swap some different speakers in place of the V30 as the highs are a little shrill at times. Might try a Alnico creme and a few other Celestians in it's place.
Oh man! I just finished the Triwatt and now I need a 5e3 LOL. Sounds awesome!
Thanks! I’d love to build the Triwatt or the OSD one day. Just finished a Custom Plexi. Video coming soon on that one.
@@MichaelWWestbrook Looking forward to the Plexi video. When I recover from this series (LOL), I’m going to do a build video of an amp I prototyped a few years ago. That will probably be late fall early winter.
I modded mine with the Mission Amps Volume Tone mod. Way improved.
Cool. I’ll have to look into that!
Sounds interesting - what is that mod?
@@EvLoutonian it converts a 5e3 into a more brownface Deluxe sound. Less raw, wooly and muddy.
Very interesting video, thank you! I'd like to say I tried the NFB mod but my 5E3 sounds best stock (without negative feedback) ! Imho, the most useful mod I did was reducing signal caps from .1 to .022 and installing a pre-phase inverter master volume.
Agreed! I like mine stock (with the smaller caps) or the Cathode bypass engaged. It’s rare I use the Neg feedback mode. It is nice for big over drive sounds though. Tightens things up a little bit
@@MichaelWWestbrook by big over drive did you mean using overdrive pedal? Indeed, NFB must be useful in this case 😉
That and when turing the amp up. Over half way up with the NFB and mine is fairly overdriven
Great demo bro, nice hearing It with a good selection of guitars and parts
Thanks! Enjoyed making it
Great sound with the Tele custom..thanks for your hard work , it helps. The " Stock" setting sounded great on all Guitars. Leave that amp as is and look for another classic, maybe an El84 style amp like Vox?
The best mod I did for my 5e3 clone amp was to build a buckminster bucking transformer to lower the wall voltage to closer to 110v.
If you buy a modern 5E3 transformer from a company like Hammond, for example, it has 120v taps, so you get the correct voltage on the secondary.
Great work with those mods! I have a DIY 5E3 as well that I've modded to kingdom come. Drop me a line if you ever want to chat about building amps!
Thanks! I definitely watched some of your videos when I was researching!
Love that opening track.
Sounds fantastic. Thanks for sharing.
Very interesting. I liked the VA2 bypass the most.
That’s generally where I end up running it!
Awesome job. You did a quality job. Wow
This amp sounds killer modded
I came for the amp mods, but stayed for the playing. Had to pause the video so I could learn that finger plucked strat groove!!! Awesome stuff Michael!
Thanks!
I built one a while back, not from a kit, so it doesn't look like a fender amp. You should come over one day and check out the setup and compare notes. At a glance, the 5E3 circuit has no negative feedback, so I could see how that modification might clean up the early breakup on those tweed amps. Adding a properly ranged pot would give a finely adjustable choice for the negative feedback rather than a resistance in line with a switch.
Absolutely! We should hang soon for sure, it’s been too long
Holy smokes your intro song you put together is incredible! If you ever sell that track I want to buy it. Dang that was good! Was all that using the 5E3?
Thanks! Yeah, all the guitars used the 5e3
@@MichaelWWestbrook well it sounds awesome! You’re a gifted musician!
I'm on it already ! Thanks ! I love this amp, but all I wanted was a little more clean headroom to make it my GoTo amp.....
Yeah, makes it way more versatile!
You can get cleaner by opening up the volume on the other channel. Weird 5E3 interactive mystique.
@@Ton7Tube I've tried this before but you also get the noise from the other channel adding up.......I did the mod and now it's perfect.....On NF you can play a clean les paul on "band" level...that's what I was after....For Fender I just take it normal....If I want to go super clean I just play my Bassman.......
Sweets tone, sir!
Thanks!
Cool vid. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
Nice intro!!!
Thanks!!
The neg feed back increases clean headroom. That Trinity amp has increased filter cap values doesn't it?? Also the cap in the phase inverter to black face value takes the flubby bass out.
Thanks for the great info!! I'm still auditioning speakers in my 5e3 and the changes are dramatic. After that, I'd like to explore the negative feedback mods... The only thing I miss on my 5e3 is a reverb circuit, but that would probably change the amps vibe,,, besides it's beyond my skills to add reverb.....
Check out my latest video comparing the HX Stomp to my 5e3. I got a Weber 12a125-a recently and use IR’s I made from that speaker. It’s a great fit for the 5e3! I prefer it over the Celestion Gold I have been using.
Just build or buy yourself a SurfyBear reverb (JFet clone of Fender Reverb Unit). I hope you will be able to find the kit or assembled unit, cause they no longer supply them as DIY kit. Real shame, cause it's truly great and affordable way to get that surf reverb sound and beyond just by swapping reverb tanks.
I enjoy your videos. I watched the build video before i built my kit and it gave me confidence. Lately I've been going down the same mod rabbit hole. Did the NFB and love it. Ended up using 68k feedback resistor, curious what you used? Also tweaked my coupling caps - I opted to let the normal channel be a little deeper, with a 0.068 (still lower than stock value) and the bright channel a little less so, with 0.022. Left the others stock.
I'm curious do you have a master volume in there? It looks like it but I could not see close enough on my phone :) I tried pre and post phase inverter, and both seem to work fine, but I'm trying to decide if I want to keep it on the underside of the amp, or put it where the ground switch was, and figure out the shielded cable solution, like Rob suggests. So many options, right?
Thanks again. BTW, I really dig your playing and the tones you coax out of the gear!
Thanks! No master on mine. For me, I'm not sure I really need it right now... Most of my playing since building the amp has been at home or in a studio setting because of Covid. My experience might change once I get out playing live again but who knows when that'll be? Again, thanks for the kind words!
@@MichaelWWestbrook thanks for replying -- the master volume isn't fantastic on this amp anyway. even with audio taper, the volume reduction doesn't really kick in until lower third of the potentiometer range. what i did find super useful if you're looking for a way to quiet the amp for home playing is to build the 10% power switch that rob robinette describes on his site. i built it into an old guitar pedal housing, and it does a great job of reducing the perceived volume by half or so.
(To me) all the sound comparisons sounded better w/the NFB loop activated. I got a 5E3 kit to about 70% finished - and it's been sitting that way for almost 5 years now. I'm really thinking to get it finished now. I'll for sure be putting in that 3 way NFB loop mod. I'm building it as a head though - to make it easier to swap around between my cabs
Some days there is a variance in the incoming power voltage, which can alter the sound and feel of the output of the same amp. I have found the amps I liked best had a good set of iron in them.
Absolutely, I use a Brownbox to bring my voltage down a touch if the mains are hot.
Great post! That negative feedback mod sounds great, and right up my alley! I bought mine 5e3 off Reverb. The guy who sold it to me said the guy who build it for him had done some mod to tighten up the low end? Not sure if he just change the cap value, or did something more extensive?
It’s loaded with a Celestion Blue, breaks up around 3/4, gets mushy when cranked...I like it edge of breakup.
I really love the harmonically rich, bell like tone, compressed breakup of the 5e3, but would love a little bit more clean headroom sometimes.
Probably out of my comfort zone to do by myself?
I've got to replace a bad input jack on mine anyhow, now I'm thinking about getting rid of one input on each channel and using the two leftover holes for a three way switch and a 50k pot in series with a 10k resistor to make the amount of negative feedback continuously adjustable. Maybe also get rid of the extension speaker output and use that jack for the footswitch Rob suggests.
Congrats dude, great tone and sound all round. Can you please tell me, is the only amp overdrive used in the guitar recordings, or is there an OD pedal on the chain?
Thanks! Only amp overdrive in the video!
I saw you used this amp with Good Trouble over on Rhett Shull's channel. Mind giving us an update on its current state? I just ordered a kit to build one myself, thanks in part to your videos.
Awesome! An update sounds like a good idea for a video. I’ve done a couple of things since my last video
Great video! Might do the NFB switch mod myself this evening... looking at rob robinettes site it seems its simply a switch, a resistor and a bypass of the 22uf/1.5k components.. is that really all there is to it? Sounds great!
Yeah! I used some shrink wrap as well to make sure the cap that’s lifted doesn’t short out on anything nearby as well. Some folks use a little epoxy to secure it but I felt good about my solution as it all seems to be pretty secure.
@@MichaelWWestbrook ahh so did you wire it point to point? I've seen some folks install a turret for the connection which I don't really understand. Thanks for the advice man, I'll give it a bash tonight!
Yeah, there’s really just one resistor and the bypass cap that “float”. They don’t move around so I’ve got no reservations about doing it that way. I’m not sure exactly where but I show it in the video.
@@MichaelWWestbrook well I did the mod.. wow! I think this amp will be staying in the "middle" position a lot.. really liking that. Like having a new amp (or two new amps!)
I with you, I really like that middle position! The NFB position loses a bit more top end than I’d like sometimes (though I do like having the option). Glad it worked out for you!!
As an electronics R&D engineer, I can tell you that capacitor types don't make as much difference as you think, but the values do. It's mostly down to tubes, gain, bias and negative feedback (or lack of) and speakers. If you can't hear the difference, then don't worry about it.
Yeah, not sure I could tell the difference! Especially not being able to A/B them quickly. I’m also sure minor differences in values (because of variance) would make a small difference between caps from even the same manufacturer
@@MichaelWWestbrook There surely will be a difference, caps have 10% tolerance and pots have 20% tolerance in general. It's also why two identical guitar pedals do not sound the same, when set up on the same position.
@@MichaelWWestbrook And thank you a lot for posting your videos on 5e3, it was truly inspiring and educational. I'm going to build my own from the TAD kit (I'm in Europe).
Man i love the tweed sound! Would you be able to install a PPIMV in these amps? I'm not too much of a fan of attenuators and I'd really like to get those 5e3 tones at bedroom volumes.
Yes you totally can. There is also an option offered by Trinity and others that allows you turn the voltage down. This is considered a better option by most but I personally haven’t tried it.
@@MichaelWWestbrook I did it to my Trinity 5E3 and it works awesome. He calls it a "VRM Module" and can be added for less than $50. Easy mod that works better than I expected.
Could you tell me what PPIMV means?
I have a 5e3 I’ve been wanting to do some mods to. The NFB is a for sure one to have the option of more headroom. I put a mid cut in one a few years ago and I don’t remember how I did it now. It made it have a Princeton Reverb kind of vibe.
Was curious (apart from addition of trem + reverb circuits) what is the difference between a Princeton & 5E3 Deluxe tonal ranges?
I love that 3 way negative feedback mod.. a lot. I wonder if I can figure out a way to get it without drilling any holes in my real, vintage 1958 Fender. If there was a non destructive way to do that, I'd seriously consider it...
You can mount the switch on a metal bracket i suppose.
You can use one of the output jack holes. You just won't have an extension speaker option anymore.
@@tommytomcat1a "jack holes"
Hey man! finally bought a tweed deluxe! What speaker would you recomend?
I really like the Weber 12A125A for vintage style tones or the Eminence GA64 as a great all around. A lot of folks like a Celestion Blue as well.
Nice Love it !!
What tubes can i put on a tweed deluxe forca cleaner sound ?? 12ax7 or 12ay7?
Or maybe change the 6v6?
Thx a lot
I knew what you were going to say you modded before you even said it. I build my own amps, coupling cap value really can firm up the flubby fender bottom end.
I want this amp tone… what mods did you do and what speaker ?
Can I ask what pickup you have in the black Tele?
I get this question a ton - Fralin Blues Specials!
Another great video, I have recently got into using the fullerton model on the hx stomp. Isn't it a model of this amp?
Very similar but technically that’s a 5c3. That circuit has touch more head room but is very similar. Hoping to do a comparison video soon!
@@MichaelWWestbrook That would be very cool, I have enjoyed all your videos about the real amps vs the HX stomp version. I know the stomp gets close enough for me, right now anyway. I have a FSR BassBreaker 15 the one with the green tolex wheat colored grill cloth and a celestion greenback. It is a great amp but the stomp is so convenient that it gets a lot more play time then the amp. But still when I just want to plug in and play that amp is just awesome. It has enough gain for 2 amps the hall reverb is great and it will scream with just the flip of a switch. If I feel like messing around I use the stomp, nI can get some really killer sounds from it as well. Just not as easy, and together they worked even better until I got a Powercab 112 plus now its a whole new toy again with all the excitement of getting a new amp because it breathes life into old presets and you can get some really great sounds out of it.
Where can I buy a switch like you used for the negative feedback loop mod? Thanks.
Can’t remember exactly where I got it but I get a lot of stuff from Amplified Parts. I’ve also gotten a few switches from Amazon but that can be hit or miss
@@MichaelWWestbrook thank you Michael.
What is your opinion of making the NFL foot switchable? Does a foot switch enable all three options?
Thanks
I have question if you don't mind (amp related ) I have a champion 100. that has two tap speed control (both channels) Cant the tap buttons be changed out to the older style rotary style pots.
I’m no expert on this kind of thing but I would doubt it
Fantastic demonstration tracks, congrats.
I mod every amp I build, can't help myself. I look at vintage Fender designs as a starting point, not some holy grail. These amps weren't designed by electrical engineers, more like some dude with an RCA tube manual, and a penny pincher looking over his shoulder. Lots of questionable design choices.
Best mod I have done to my 5e3 was to install a vvr from ampmaker. It used to be way to loud for my current rehersal situation
Haven’t installed mine but I have it
dude- i think its time for a new t-shirt already :0)
😂
There is a way to A/B them...hook up a rotary switch and you can connect as many caps you want to compare. Pretty simple really.
Great video. I was looking for an example of the robrob deluxe as I just started rebuilding a vintage motorola record player amp. I've got original 5y3, motorola 6v6, 12au7 and 6au6. I think you did a really great job capturing the amp audio.
Thanks for watching?
What speaker do you have in your 5e3?
What speaker are you using for the demo?
I’m using Impulse responses that I made. I tend to lean on Celestion Greenback, Gold, and a Lead 80
Hi! Amp overdrive or pedals? So smooth!
All amp!
@@MichaelWWestbrook did You add the 470 resistor in pin 7 of V2?
My problem is trying to hear the difference on a iPad & a cheap set of ear buds. Unfortunately it’s not like being there.
probably just the nice colour combination. no wonder people don't like neg feedback loop!!
I like the negative feedback setting for certain things. The middle position is maybe my favorite and most versatile.
Firm low ends are always a good thing
😂
New subscriber, having found your channel from the 5E3 videos. I'm thinking of building one myself and appreciate your perspective on everything. Thanks for all the info! Curious what other gear you were using for the music at about 1:37, if you still remember :). Sounded great!
Thanks for watching! Everything was the amp going into a Two Notes Captor with IR’s that I created. I’ve talked about it in a few videos. All gain is from the amp except maybe the slide part might be boosted with a Klon style overdrive. Verb and and any delay added in the mix.
@@MichaelWWestbrook Awesome, man. Thanks for the reply! Happy new year.
Happy new year to you as well!
Modded mine too... about seven times.
Yeah, I think I’m cutting myself off 😂 (for a while at least)
I need to brighten up my 5e3 quite a bit. Anyone have any speaker recommendations for me?
I’d look at the options Weber as well as theJensens (they are known to be brighter and great for Fender stuff). All of the options can be intimidating but start out with the different 12a125 options or the 12f125/12f150 ones. The regular 12a125 is on the darker side so look at the different cone/dope versions to see which is brighter.
@@MichaelWWestbrook awesome. Thank you sir!!!
Michael, this was simply great. I just found you. This may have been answered before, but is there a schematic and parts diagram for the negative feedback switch? I would have no idea where to start.
I haven't started my build yet, but I agree with your impressions completely. Now it's like it has to have that mod.
Anyway, looking forward to plugging in my soldering iron, even though it looks a little challenging.
Thank you so much for this info!
Check out the links in the description. Specifically Rob Robinette’s page. Tons of 5E3 info on there including diagrams of these mods.
Also, have fun!! I love building and will be building another style amp very soon!
I don’t understand why people don’t do a looper track then record, mod, push that looper and record again and compare the record!
could I replace the 6V6 tube with 6L6 ❓
I’m not an expert on this but you may have to have a beefier transformer to do this. Some kits come with this option I think.
What do you think of the amp? If you’ve built a 5e3, what are your favorite mods?
I watch a ton of these types of videos, pedal and amp reviews, synths, etc. And it feels like youtube compression limits the fidelity and thereby the utility of the comparisons. If that assumption by me is correct re youtube etc, it might be a good idea for you to have a patreon page or mailing list that gives access to uncompressed larger file versions of your videos. Would also help drive you developing multiple revenue streams etc. Just an idea.
Cathode bypass caps? Coupling caps?
Coupling Caps are the ones most commonly modded and the ones I’m referring to in this video. Sorry for the confusion!
@@MichaelWWestbrook Don’t overlook the role that cathode bypass caps play in fine tuning bass response
Thanks! I’ll look into that
Philips/vishay caps are good.
Swap out the 12ay7 with a JJ 12ax7
I haven’t done that yet for some reason but I need to!
Do it sqwank? I think I'm a Bassman kind of guy.
ruclips.net/video/ZQLIknKdBig/видео.html - start at 17:30
I really, really need to one day learn the skill of soldering. 🤣 #worthless
Do it! #worthit 😂
Old tubes were made to last new ones made so you have to buy new ones every so often
20uf filter caps? But Can hear you like a modern sounding amp. I like vintage tones.
You could just buy a pro jr. Or a blues jr. But I guess some just have the need to mod. If it makes you happy then why do you look so sad...
The 5E3 lack of volume control makes it a PITA if you're a bedroom player....you have been warned.
Anybody who messes with a 5e3 circuit needs the shit knocked out of them. It's perfect as it is, it doesn't need modding. The only "mod" I can understand is if you want to replace the rectifier tube for a Yellow Jacket diode, other than that, why screw up a masterpiece?
Wow 😂
i coulnt tell any difference
Don't bother chasing moonbeams with brands of signal caps.... there is no difference.
HEY GUYS YOUR MAKING IT TOO HARD TO LOWER POWER ON THE 5E3 AMP. HERE IS HOW YOU DOING IT FOR THE BEDROOM PLAYING WITH OUT BURNING UP THE XFROMERS.
THIS IS how to drop the B+ down to vintage stock levels. It's easy- used a zener diode on the hv secondary center tap, have a switchable cathode resistor for the 6V6's or use a big 15w 270 or 470ohm dropping resistor right off of the B+ before the board.
BY LOWERING THE B+ YOU LOWER WATTAGE !!!! BUT YOU MIGHT HAVE TO USE A 100 OHM 15 - 25 WATTS AND JUST ADD A SWITCH TO PUT RESISTOR RIGHT WHERE IT COME FROM THE 5Y3 RECTIFIER TUBE PIN 8 ... BUT DO MODE AT BOARD.