Political Correctness Debate ft. Stephen Fry, Jordan Peterson, Michael Dyson, Michelle Goldberg
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson and British actor and activist Stephen Fry take on American blogger Michelle Goldberg and American political commentator and academic Michael Eric Dyson in a fiery debate on political correctness in modern society.
00:00:00 Livestream intro
00:03:44 Moderator's introduction
00:11:32 Goldberg's opening statement
00:17:44 Peterson's opening statement
00:24:05 Dyson's opening statement
00:30:23 Fry's opening statement
00:36:56 Goldberg's rebuttal
00:40:11 Peterson's rebuttal
00:43:08 Dyson's rebuttal
00:46:20 Fry's rebuttal
00:49:36 Moderated discussion
01:40:34 Fry's closing statement
01:43:53 Dyson's closing statement
01:46:35 Peterson's closing statement
01:49:15 Goldberg's closing statement
Leave your thoughts about the debate in the comments below.
You can check the final polled results of the debate here:
munkdebates.com/debates/political-correctness
Truthspeak A very mediocre shift. I felt this would be the case. It certainly wasn’t a riveting debate. I cannot put my finger as to why.
I literally just watched this and wondered about that so this was perfect timing and very considerate thank you!
🙏 Namaste...
I was sad about the end result, they didn't properly address the political correctness
From 36% to 30% on the pro side. Doesn't look like much but it ain't to bad considering more then half of the people in any debate aren't going to change their minds.
Peterson: “We shouldn’t judge people based on group identity markers.”
Dyson: “You’re a mean, old white man.”
Wow.
If you don't understand how wrong that is, switch the gender and race.
Black woman: "We shouldn't judge people based on group identity markers".
White man: "You're a mean old black woman."
Peterson is right, we shouldn't judge people that way but Dyson is also right, people do judge other's that way.
Right??!! Good grief!!!
Well guys to be fair that could be his characterization of peterson based on his knowledge of him. So it's not technically prejudice. Postjudice
Nah, this is most likely the way this guy talks to any white person. We've all seen this over the years by now, get in a debate with a woman, a trans, a black person etc and the immediately go to the "you're a man" or "you're not gay" etc. card. Even online, without knowing a single thing about you. This is just the simple little game they play, their identity is good and yours is bad. Nothing bad their ancestors did counts and nothing good yours did counts either. They invented rock and roll and peanut butter and all whitey did was enslave and pillage etc.
Dyson is a race-baiter and a con-man. His life revolves around sucking on the sweet teat of whitey. Parachute his idiot ass in the middle of Africa, where he can't use victim narratives to gain financial stability, and he will starve to death or just beg to be let back into evil racist USA.
I'm a black man and I feel so embarrassed by what I've just witnessed. I'm just going to be an individual for the rest of today..🤦🏿♂️
Nissi Pululu be an individual for the rest of your life! Who gives a shit into what group you belong?
I'm sure he was joking
I can’t see the colour of your skin by your comment but I will happily be an individual with you.
Nissi Pululu Don’t leave the plantation or us mean white men will be really nasty to you and call you silly.
Matt Drew *gasp*
Rumour has it that Peterson is still waiting for an answer.
James Drake he'll be waiting a long time. 😂
He's a patient man 😉
If they answer, they'd actually have to defend a position.
Violence.. That is your answer! However we reserve the the right to manipulate the narrative with headlines like "Transgender Man crossing the street is racially profiled and murdered by police"
james
fucking so asom dude
What I definitely got from Michael Dyson is that the epistemological ramifications of the ontological indeterminacy of the phenomenological manifestation of the existential dilemma of the human condition are contingent upon the hermeneutical interpretation of the teleological implications of the metaphysical presuppositions of the transcendental foundation of the ethical imperative of the universal rationality.
He definitely put that point across very clearly in this debate!
Great comment👏in chemistry class I’d raise my hand to answer a question and would just word vomit a bunch of scientific bs. You could tell the teacher tried really hard engage with what I was trynna say before she realized I was just being an asshole😂
Just awesome😂
Entirely underrated comment!!!
Indubitably!
😂😂😂
Came for Peterson, wanted to leave cause of Dyson. Stayed for fry
ofcourse , couse you are wired that way . you dont know better
@@barefootprofessor3455 You wouldn't know. Higher awareness beats any wired habits and routines. Its what allows you to change them.
@@joeybelea4772 nah , we all know what this about but neither you or Paterson have the guts to say it. so hide behind Free bul%%t and Political Corectness
@@barefootprofessor3455 what I have the guts to say to anyone's face or behind any screen we both happen to be behind, is that we are all human beings. No one is better than the other. You are not superior to me, I am not superior to you. I would like myself to be a friend to you than an enemy. I don't care what color anyone is, everyone deserves the love they get as the next. Have a good day.
@@joeybelea4772 have a good day
Fry: "I would love to hear your thoughts on the current landscape..."
Dyson: "THREE HUNDRED YEARS AGO..."
LoL !
Dyson: "How has the right gone too far?"
Peterson: "Well how about Auschwitz?"
Dyson: "I mean ... what else? I mean ... more recently?"
Yes, let's minimise and render irrelevant one of the greatest acts of evil in human history. I'm amazed Munk Debates had Dyson on, he's a disgusting human being, and I'm astounded that Goldberg and Fry didn't call him out on this.
That moment was a jaw dropper for me, something more recent. He's from the same band of idiots who'd bring up the crusades when discussing Islams compatibility with the west
JWiLL552 und
@@87rapha
Well I don't think he actually minimised anything.
He just felt that Jordan was giving him an cop-out because if Jordans only example of when the right went too far was Auschwitz then Dyson could have just mentioned the Soviet Union as an example of when the left has gone too far and I don't think Jordan would have been satisfied with that answer either.
Jordan would have probably also asked for a more recent example.
Funny how the only person bringing up race constantly, is the one asking not to be determined by his race.
lostcause78 because he wants all the benefits of having a boogeyman with no negatives of racial prejudice.
You need to start treating yourself as an individual before asking everyone else not to treat you as part of a group.
GageD That's exactly it!
Fry said it best in his closing response. “ the liberals are illiberal in their demand for liberality, they are exclusive in their demands for inclusivity, they are un-diverse in their call for diversity”. What a paradox. Like the French Revolution who ended taking Robs Pierre head, the left is in full cannibalizing mode upon itself. I am so happy to see them fall.
People like him are irrepressibly looking under every rock to validate themselves! No surprise then, that every one they turn over is hiding a racist! The only racist they cannot see, is the one staring back at them in the mirror!
Stephen Fry was the ONLY one who actually tackled what the debate was about, “ political correctness “.
Jordan went slightly off tangent with criticism of the Left
The woman went on about American politics
And Dyson went straight out attacking Peterson personally whilst acting like America’s last slave.
I agree nice analysis!
'The woman' 🙄
Stephen Fry was the only debater who continually brought the subject of the debate back into the light. Jordan Peterson went, habitually, on a defensive 'the left is wrong, but the right is too' argument. Michelle Goldberg went on about various tributaries of American politics, but I feel also genuinely to actually debate and listen. Michael Dyson... said a lot of stuff, without actually saying much. I felt confused while he was speaking and I'm a (moderately) intelligent human. I'm still not sure about his position, even after watching this twice through.
A beautiful opportunity, wasted.
@@h3ngist the person who was at most fault here though was the moderator. It was his job to keep order and not let the debaters wander off topic.
Never said a word.
I submit that it was EASY for Fry to look more academic , scholarly , and composed, as he wasn't fending off a NEVER ENDING STREAM OF PERSONAL ATTACKS from the hateful , hissing Dyson .
@@h3ngistokay, 'the man'
Every argument by Dyson is literally...
"Whoa, I'm black, you can't say that, you being a white dude let me tell you how you're wrong"
Yup. Which isn’t a valid argument. Just like it wouldn’t be valid for me to refer to my “whiteness”
Tony Jackson he literally started the debate by saying that race is an invention by white people, which is already a contradiction, and then spends his entire day and the whole of his life consumed by it
Too right man if jp were to call him an angry black man there would've been uproar 1 thing I took from this was that regardless where you're from what colour your skin is or your financial situation you as an individual have the potential to be a reasonable person or an asshole
what a fucking riot that, in the post-debate interview. the first words out of Dyson's mouth were "well, i think we need to hold people intellectually responsible".
it was clear that Dyson had no idea how to actually debate like this, he was out of his depth, stumbling over his exasperated words.
I think he meant to say intelligent people responsible
1:24:54 "I think people will look back on this debate and wonder why political correctness wasn't discussed" - Stephen Fry.
Indeed, Stephen.
Scott Lowe
How is “relishing transgression”a positive thing?
How is “contesting conformity” a positive thing??
How is Doubt according to Him (“positive doubt”)
Really positive when the only doubt I know that is positive is giving others “the benefit of the doubt “
Not doubting, the benefit given to others.
How is skepticism and confusion a positive thing???
How is being gay (happy) and laid back about serious issues over which people kill each other a positive thing?
Nothing wrong with being light but using an “angles flying” analogy to make a serious matter which was obvious in this sophisticated debate(Peterson vs Baptist)
So light that he doesn’t believe in angles himself as an atheist to begin with??
I’m sorry but this guy was the only one that seemed the least serious.
(Lack of seriousness in a serious situation gets you suspended from schools,places of worship, funerals, the Army and where ever decipline is necessary.)
Whereas the Lady was trying her best to understand the the situation to the best of her ability but he cut her off couple of times.
And the Baptist was crying about his forefathers
And Peterson worries about the comments made by that guy.
Like seriously 😒????
This happening in Canada???
I mean if it was the U.S would possibly make sense
But no it had to be Toronto
(Few minutes from my residence)
Really????
Jordan wasn’t the only one shocked
To the People in the comments above (not everything is Hollywood-and Entertainment)
There are over 7 billion people on The planet 🌎
Not everyone watches (Hollywood or Bollywood)
Welcome to The Real WORLD
@@mohsinakhtar7876 fuck you talking about?
@@mohsinakhtar7876 try doing a ted talk and expanding your ideas 🤣 the youtube comment section isn't the place for extended vague rants
Mohsin Akhtar
My understanding of the debate:
Stephen Fry: Political correctness is not the effective way to go forward, and the problem is that people want to be right instead of being effective. The thing about uncertainty and scepticism is that you know you’re not 100% certain and someone who’s a better point can show you “the light” but people should use their brain to see if this makes sense or not, and not believe everything. And I don’t understand your point of being gay is happy? I assume and correct me if I’m wrong, you are a heterosexual, does that not make you happy, that you have a clarity over your sexuality? Not so many years ago, being gay was looked down upon, and in some countries like Russia it’s still looked down upon, so I think, being gay in a world, where he can be, is happiness for him, again, my assumptions. And one last thing. Stephen Fry does not lack seriousness. He might not be loud and provoking, like Dyson is, but the analogy of angels flying is not about actual angels, it’s about getting to the ultimate goal, where people treat people with respect.
As for the lady, how I saw her approach was, attacking JP’s earlier comments and statements and talking about gender equality. And there reason to talk about gender equality in a debate of political correctness, but from my point of view, that was her ammunition and she was trying to win the battle over JP rather than trying to address the issue of political correctness.
As for Dyson, he just missed the mark completely. I can go on a long rant about him, but not going to. His one good point was about the kid being shot for being black, because their it’s not about the individual but him belonging to a group. The rest of what he said was pointless and cringe.
Unfortunately I feel that this conversation was about attacking JP and not the subject. I don’t know if JP would have come up with some good points in this debate, but I feel that he had to address the attacking, rather than the subject which is unfortunate. He might have said the same things, but who knows.
To sum this up, Stephen Fry is in my eyes the only one that kept talking about political correctness through the whole way, and that is an amazing thing, compared to all the madness, happening on the stage.
Cicada Luk I’m not here to attack you or your points (many of which I agree). Just wanted to point out that there is a definition of ‘gay’ that is unrelated to sexuality that you may be unaware. First definition of gay in the Oxford dictionary is: ‘1. a. Of persons, their attributes and actions: Full of or disposed to joy and mirth; manifesting or characterized by joyous mirth; light-hearted, exuberantly cheerful, sportive, merry’
Everyone's favourite gay British uncle just teamed up with everyone's favourite Canadian dad.
oldmoviemusic honestly didn't know fry was gay until this
What's does that mean? Or are you just like Michelle & Mike and you can't explain yourself?
I have a strong aversion to JP. Favorite Canadian dad - can't really think of one, maybe Wayne Gretzky.
contactkeithstack Strong aversion huh. Why's that? Perhaps because he speaks undeniable, historical truth and that doesn't coincide with your presuppositions?
wow
Stephen Fry, with his life and background, being on the con side of this debate is exactly why he is among the most worthwhile intellectuals the world has ever had. None of the rest of them would ever take the other side. Many say they want to learn, but he shows he means it.
😂
You should watch James Lindsay argue on behalf of ... I misremember the exact wording used, but he was saying "wokeness" has NOT gone far enough. It's not the same league as Fry (and many other middle leaning on the left) defending against PC culture(authoritarian by nature so it's easy to talk against), because Lindsay isn't being genuine, but he does understand and does a masterful job of presenting the point technically, almost steel manning it....and also mocking it at the same time.
Oxford Union debates. Search "james lindsay oxford union" and it's the top video, part 6/8. The whole thing is worth a watch, but since we're talking about odd-man-out(and on the same topic), as it were, that one is a stand-out.
I'm black and I can see that Dyson came to talk about race and not political correctness. He keeps drifting away to race every time he speaks. Annoying!!!
TheGr8Shogun dude, why do you even need to mention your skin colour? Like none of that shit matters in the long run!
He brings up race to show how oppressed groups (not individuals) have used identity politics to gain legal rights and humanity in the western world, and how those who were already afforded those rights because of their own identity might view the sharing of power and national identity as political correctness. It's in the fucking debate topic. One side see's it as political correctness, the other side sees it simply as progress. You can't have a debate about political correctness without bringing up politics, and you can't bring up politics without bringing up race, gender, religion, history, philosophy, and ideology.
Sadly this is a very common thing. Very popular with comedians. I really respect those who don't do this but I can't think of any.
his opening was good, and was interested in hearing more on those points, but it went wrong quickly
To be fair you did the same when you said you were black but i can see why you did to show that not all blacks fall for the black preacher stuff. .
I'm sure if Dr. Peterson called Dyson an angry black man the internet would've exploded.
I'll say it. Dyson is an angry black man. He's also a racist.
He is also LITTLE - hence his anger at the world issues
Yeah I was thinking the same. You get very similar things with men and women.
Don't be so PC! So he was acting like an angry white man. He was offended. Oops. Where were the PC police to help Peterson? Debate closed
He is a angry black man lol. And when Peterson said straight to him "yeah you would say that" he was sitting there grumping and grunting like a dog for 10 minutes.. what a joke ! 😂
Dyson is rambling about nothing and it’s kind of pissing me off.
FXRBES just try to find the humor in it. Provocation to anger is part of a debate strategy. He's either brilliantly deploying that, or he's just word vomiting the whole time.
he's making up words on the go to sound intelligent.
making sentences unnecessarily long and complicated so people don't notice the bullshit that comes out his mouth.
FXRBES don't get mad, just laugh at him. He doesn't matter, he's just marginalizing himself, being turned into an irrelevant footnote in history & it's by his own hands.
Haha I think it's just his church preaching habits coming out. I found pretty amusing
Dyson also never adresses any arguments. He only adresses emotions but not a single objective argument.
We can agree that Michael Dyson thrives in being a victim and flourishes in portraying himself as one.
And then scoffs and rolls his eyes when challenged on that. A show of character
He's a weak man with a fragile ego.
If he can't be a victim he's out of business. So of course he'd rather be a victim.
Oh the explosion that would happen in the universe if Jordan Peterson called Michael Dyson an angry black man.
James Redd Dyson lost me when he said LBJ was one of our great presidents...
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
That was one of our great presidents from the mouth of a black man.....
He didn't have to say it; we were all thinking it.
+EPPERS III I was LMAO at that comment.
Would be "wordy black man" would be enough 😂 what has race got to do with it? Mental eh
Just imagine what would have happened had Peterson called Dyson 'a mean black man'. Just imagine.
Let alone an Uncle Tom, which he also is.
Only thing that would happen is laughter because its not that serious snow flake.
Laughter is the last thing that would happen. Peterson would be crucified in the media and even more (unfairly) linked with the Alt-Right.
Fry calls them snake oil salesmans, instantly jumps to the race card. Nothing more hypocritical than an intellectual relying on his self proclaimed oppression.
Exactly!! Hey don't you know it's only " white " people you can be racist? Lol. Same old horseshit. Directed at Christian.
Jordan Peterson and Stephen Fry win easily. They seem like adults debating a couple of college freshmen.
@martin Collins He does hate political correctness though.
Was Dyson even debating? The amount of information in the debate would have been about the same without him.
Im so impressed with Stephen Fry's opening statement. He came at it from a different angle and it was so effective.
As Fry said several times throughout: why weren't they actually discussing political correctness for the vast majority of the time?
@@JivanPalThats the right question to be asking from this.
I went to school in England in the 1970’s, and the values Stephen Fry espouses are the ones all British children were taught at school in the 1960’ and 70’s. We were taught to be fair, balanced objective, to see the other point of view, and above all, be decent to one another. We were taught that change is brought about through persuasion, kindness, lack of arrogance, and a common goal of human decency. We should always doubt ourselves and understand there are always things we don’t understand. We were taught the biggest evil was to be arrogant. The biggest insult someone could pay you was to call you arrogant! Dyson should realise he is arrogant.
@@marinka424acting as rather a contrarian here as I largely agree with many of your points, however, in regards to doubt and questioning. Is it not contradictory to say that these values we hold so dear are not arrived at through logical interrogation but instead through educational indoctrination; be it through a virtuous system or otherwise?
@@JivanPal "why weren't they actually discussing political correctness for the vast majority of the time?" I'm not sure if they're mature enough to rise above the actual political identity issues to discuss PC in the abstract sense. It's unfortunate
dyson: "come with me to an indigenous community"
peterson: "im actually an honorary member of an indigenous family"
lmfao
He got BTFO'd.
I wish someone fired back with comments about blacks as that cunt commented on whites
Hey im black and im with Peterson soo chill man
Johny Joe , u speak 4 the blacks?
Johny Joe You're an exception. The fact is blacks are a morally bankrupt people in this country and in the world. I have lived in ghettos, I would know. No good black neighborhoods and no good black countries. You're different, and plenty of blacks are great people, but as a group is where the problems lie
I love how Dyson defended his racially-charged description of Dr. Peterson, yet when Fry referred to the snake-oil hucksterism of his oratory, he immediately goes into "they can't handle a black man with intelligence" bullshit. Puts the corruption of his ideology plainly on display.
That was so sad. To assume Fry was trying to insult him for being articulate while black is just so uncharitable.
And his own lack of intellectual honesty.
MrSinister718 Yeah I seriously doubt that Peterson thinks like that.
MrSinister718 I hope that’s a satirical comment or perhaps you don’t even realize how incongruous your statement is with JP and his ideas on the subject.
hope in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills first.
Isn't calling a person a mean mad white man on stage during a debate, and remaining relevant as well as employed some sort of black privilege?
punoss : its definitely Black Privilege. They can say whatever they want and never face social consequence. This is just one privilege they have. One day nonblacks wont be able to look at them because that would be considered racist. Extreme idea but the way things are going its not far fetched.
Booyah!!!
What the fuck are you guys on about. Angry white man is not the same as the n word now is it. I’m embarrassed to have (I’m guessing, but I have a funny feeling I’m right) the same skin tone as you.
Jumping up and down going “he can’t say that if we can’t” is so fucking immature. We can’t call them names any more so they can’t us is just so fucking small. You’re small people. We, as humans, can’t go anywhere together if you’re going to be so fucking petty and not acknowledge that, with slavery and segregation within our living history, a little venting should be allowed.
Fuck, you bunch of fragile little penises
Tiago Lopes play this through. If Peterson would have said Dyson is just an angry black man what would have the reaction been?
@@tiagolopes4965 You should just delete your comment. Better luck next time, little guy
The closing speech by Stephen Fry was pure gold. Amazing.
every time Stephen Fry speaks a wound it's healed. That man is a gift to debates.
FrankValchiria he's a gift to diabetes (lard ass)
This is a great description. Stephen's talents for debate are wonderfully bolstered by his comedy and acting careers.
I don't feel he added much to the conversation at all. He mostly talked about himself.
Jesse Herrera He kept trying to get the conversation back on track but his opponents were too busy race baiting Peterson to have an actual debate about PC
Dyson is not the kind of person who is interested in ideas or a rational debate. It takes a certain kind of talent to deal with a circus clown. I think Christopher Hitchens was good with these sorts, but most people are put off their game, because the rules are different.
Just imagine if Jordan peterson dismissed dyson by saying he was a mean angry black man.
I was thinking the same thing. It's just a mean thing to say either way and needlessly brings race into what should be a healthy intellectual debate.
I know! I know! I know what happens... want a link?
ruclips.net/video/_epSmurrW7w/видео.html
Don't be so politically correct!...he was just saying how it is. Peterson shows anger, you can see it in his expressions.
xJester23 is saying its a racist battleground. Where the opponent can say "mean angry white man" and the crowd cheers, whereas if the opposite "mean angry black man" were to happen, (which it wouldn't) I'm sure the crowd would definitely boo and he'd be called off stage.
Dyson flip-flopped on his position that it's wrong to not allow the individual to "transmogrify" their group identity.
Empathize with me while I attack you. Respect me as an individual as I hold you accountable for your group. Answer my question while I continue to ignore yours.
Dyson makes some great points if it’s still 1965.
Sloe Bone Very well said.
Very well put, exactly what is the issue with every rebuttal Dyson made
Sloe Bone Not really. Even in 1965 the differences in outcomes were the direct result of differences in group ability. Have you seen Africa? Have you seen Europe? Don’t tell me Africa is shitty because of Europe because the opposite is true. The places Europeans colonized are by far the most advanced and nicest places in Africa. Therefore, just because white people very reasonably segregated themselves from blacks that doesn’t mean blacks were actually oppressed.
109 Coincidences Exactly. Best modern day example is South Africa.
Slavery was something no one with sense would wish back into being or accept its existence in today's times (although it still exists outside of the west). Would also assume anyone with sense wouldn't try to compare different era's of slavery as one being worse than any other *Cough* Dyson you dimwit.
Stephen Fry is such a wonderfull person we should have more rational people like him.
One of the great things about this interview was that after every time Stephen Fry made a point or declaration, Jordan Peterson couldn't help but nod in agreement.
I think Fry's so-called 'rationality' is somewhat clouded at times, especially on subjects like sexuality and his inability to understand genuine religious faith and his lack of knowledge about biblical stories and their importance on human meaning and direction.
@@DB-qw6xq faith isent rational
@@DB-qw6xq Ironically, Mr. Fry himself points this out constantly calls that out himself. He is aware of the fact he is "too logical at times" (his own words.), and he is more than willing to learn things even if they contradict his own thoughts or concepts. He has spent a lot of time studying religious texts actually, and even has specials about the bible. This does not mean he knows everything there is to know obviously, but unlike many he is at least willing to learn. I find that in of itself rare and commendable in this day and age.
@@ori-yorudanJordan isnt quite as evil as people make him out be, he is just a psychologist dragged into things he shouldnt talk about because its a different field XD
Love how Dyson repeatedly stated he wanted to be viewed as an individual then persisted on placing Jordan in a group.
Dyson is just an ivy league version of Al Sharpton.
Deltassippi that's exactly what I said. ... hypocritical Baptist preacher
Deltassippi - And himself.
this is 2hrs long, your only taking that part and using that to eliminate valid arguments made by Dyson, along with good points made by Peterson. Seriously, just stick to fox news and Hannity, this is a level of intellectualism you are not used to
logic of a previously minority with an angry jealously driven revenge agenda.
Stephen Fry is such a class act.
Amen. I feel like he was the only one who didn't go off into the weeds. Even Dr. Peterson kind of went off on a tangent about "postmawdernism".
I believe that stephen was in the wrong century . He acts and talks like a dandy
Stephen is absolutely fantastic.
I do think that many confuse human decency with political correctness. I also think that much of the resentment for “political correctness” comes from those who wish to not be held accountable for their own unkindnesses or that of others.
Stephen the Great
@@stuweemc A very good observation. The most politically correct are often the least civil, least considerate people. Nastiness and vitriol help nobody, regardless of the ill-informed intentions of the perpetrators.
1:34:00 When Steven says "don't flatter yourself" to Dyson, that is a beautiful moment of sharp wit.
One of a few moments where Peterson looked at Fry in astonishment at how quick and clever and funny he is. The other good one is when Fry was talking about Oscar Wilde and the Oxford manner of being able to play lightly with ideas. He is incredible.
I've heard of people "pulling the race card." Dyson has the race card tattooed on his forehead!
They need to start handing out actual race cards. If you get three in a debate you get pulled on a technical foul.
What frustrates me about Dysons argument is 1) He falls into the trap (which Peterson has identified many times) of refusing to see social interactions as anything other than a set of power-plays with clearly defined oppressors and underdogs, 2) His arguments on privilege are based at least two generations in the past. Traditional this, historical that, tell us how it's relevant NOW. 3) He doesn't even start to suggest what we should do about it so we can all move the **** on. It's almost as if he has a vested interest in perpetuating the situation where certain "oppressed groups" can always get a free pass and a hand up and conversely traditionally "privileged" groups need to be perpetually apologetic. He's not necessarily part of the problem but he sure as hell isn't part of the solution.
I hate that he was "that guy". Lost a lot of respect for the man here .
Perfectly said !
Batou667
You nailed it.
some people have a race card, Dyson has a race deck.
A racial flush, if you will.
Absolutely
@Cory Yes and some have words as weapons and some have weapons to back every word they say. Like a police force and plutonium warheads.
@@kimcarsons7036 I have no clue what you just said.
@@coryCuc Yes well thinking has largely been extracted from the digital swarm of communication, so i shouldnt be surprised. continue your dividuated life and get back to me when the robots take over
@@kimcarsons7036 get back to me when you can make a coherent sentence. Until then, take a few English courses. That tip is free.
As a black man, I don't care for Michael Dyson's style of arguing. Take yourself seriously brother and stop cracking jokes smh.
Harry Gusto absolutely. If he dropped the low brow jokes I’d still be opposed to his arguments, but at least he would’ve carried himself with a lot more dignity.
When you don't have facts on your side, all you have left is emotion, race baiting, and ignorant statements as exemplified by Mr. Dyson.
@@jimgregory4833 Right, if he knew anything about Jordan/ the issues within the black community he would have stood by Jordan.
How about.... As a man of intelligence? No one cares what skin color you are, and people who like it because you agree with them are just as bad as those who dislike it when you don't.
He also is the most overtly racist, combative, and disrespectful of the four (even hurling personal attacks). It really sucks as there are legitimate arguments to be made but he really loses the plot debating like this.
"Classic, huxtering, snake oil, pulpit talk" - perfect description of Dyson's on-stage buffoonerry by Fry
Apparently all things called Dyson suck.
53:33 the guy over his shoulder on the left, sums it up lol
I see what you did there.
lol...... nice one
Lol
No. Dyson spheres are pretty cool.
Michael Eric Dyson-never has one man used so many words to say so little.
That may just be his tactic
Artholos yes, as it is always.
Marie Just Me
Actually he said a lot, but unfortunately you didn't understand his message.
Gorgeous G I understood it perfectly. Hence, my initial response.
Marie Just Me
No, I don't you get it because Dr. Dyson not only brought key issues up regarding white privilege and race, but he managed to rattle Mr. Peterson and take him off his game. But you're entitled to your opinion regardless how wrong it is.
Stephen Fry killed it. Respectable, incendiary, willing to engage and learn, warm and funny. That's the best kind of debate.
always...highest respect whether you agree or disagree
Alex Christian The 2 leftists came to attack America, Trump, white people and Peterson. They are disgusting.
@@MrJamberee indeed, JP couldn't say anything. He had to spend his energy defending his views that was misinterpreted
Everyone on that that stage have do y care attitude and are closed minded to anything Michael had to say and say , they always talking about the equality is the same for all groups , they clearly did not want him there.
@@stevenjames2919 - If racism is desired, then let's invite Michael next time. It's so fascinating that he projected so clearly, but you think he is a genius.
I think we can gather about 50 quotes for life, just from Fry's opening and closing statements. Legend.
Imagine if Jordan spent the whole time saying " Dyson your just an angry aggressive black" would the moderator allowed that. No. But Peterson is the privileged one
this is mgtow
What does mgtow mean?
All they did was attack Dr. Peterson. I thought it was a debate on Political Correctness
The hate and envy for Peterson's success and consistency is very evident. Dyson was touting Peterson's massive online and literary success, he pays very close attention to Jordan's figures. Dyson thinks because blacks were slaves hundreds of years ago, he is entitled to Jordan's success.
I'm 15 mins in and I'm getting that.....
But other comments tell me they crush her so I'll keep watching for the carnage.
Peterson gets savage when stupidly insulted 😃
Come back and support your insult if you are capable of articulating your position.
It's hard to defend PC without trampling all over free speech. So it is far easier to attack your opponent over debating the topic.
Are you kidding me? Did we watch the same debate? All they did was attack and blame white people.
This was a debate between Michael Dyson and Michael Dyson and I've got to be honest; Michael Dyson lost.
Sed more thumbs up for you!!!
And yet he didn't manage to win as well. He just lost.... What an incredible feat.
Sed ! 😂 this gave me a much needed chuckle after watching this! Thank you!
57:34-58:23 I keep listening to this 'intellectual' Michelle Goldberg, and every time i hear it sounds more and more egregious. She is absolutely out of her mind.
Her valley girl rising intonations at the end of her sentences and over stressing enunciation of syllables makes me cringe. Her 3rd wave feminist talking points appeared to be just justifying her 5-figure 'education' in my observation with blatant subjectivity. Tyson is just as bad, a self righteous preacher who wants to dominate the micro-conversation more than engage in a substantive debate armed with facts of the topic at hand.
I'm still waiting to hear a discussion on political correctness. All I heard was identity politics for two hours from it's possessed benefactors.
Looks like stupidity killed the beast.
Stephen fry makes me so proud to be British. He handled every debate with such grace. Every sentence he speaks sounds like poetry. What a beautiful man. What a role model for us all, regardless of our views and beliefs.
The mad preacher pulled the black racecard at every opportunity. He wasn't interested in anything else. Stephen Fry outclassed everyone
Amazing it’s 2 Americans debating AGAINST American freedoms, a Brit and Canadian debating debating FOR American freedoms and values.
Marcus Chauvin
Surprising and sad how utterly entitled and blind some educated Americans have become. They regress into politics and laws of feelings whilst throwing away the many years of enlightenment and evidence, not to mention the basic understanding of the human condition.
All the while forgetting that the pendulum swings and eventually the blade attached to it can cut one's own neck tomorrow after smiting the enemy of today. Why not work to remove the blade and reduce the swinging. Instead the regressives want to sharpen the blade.
Makes sense, they weren't born into that freedom. So they value the weight it holds.
America does not have monopoly on values of the enlightenment.
Matthew Lollar
Right?! Claiming oppression and disadvantage while living in America is akin to being the first and only astronaut on Mars and bitching about having to use a space suit and the lack of fishing for trout.
Even worse they make a living opining about topics rather than having to labor in a ditch, mine, or on a well. They decry the very means and the people that allows them the ability to do what they do. It is an amazing thing to wake up in a home with heat, air conditioning, power, communication, and food. They take it all for granted.
Anthony Bennett
Ah, I’d question anyone’s education that leads the person to land on the left...
Imagine if Jordan Peterson said Dyson was a mean old black man...
Where have you been? Have you heard the phrase angry black man?
@@ghlettered6460did Jordan say it?
I'm glad they invited Michael Eric Dyson to the debate. His race baiting tactics were on full public display. Truly a "huckster and a snake-oil salesman." Dr. Peterson didn't lose his cool and didn't take the bait. Clearly a W for Peterson and Fry.
Because Mr. Dyson refused to give his opponent the same courtesy.
BlackManTravel what is he a doctor of? That’s a sincere question. He says he teaches “post-modernism”
nkw1985 I know Peterson is a personality psychologist. I don’t know what dyson is a “doctor” of...
Anyone wants snake oil . Tag Micheal
@@mafoombeh1085 four years later..I can’t say you’re wrong lol he’s more pathetic now than he was then
Dyson lost the debate when he started name calling
Dyson lost the debate when he started making joke after joke after joke instead of trying to get to a damn point, and that happened long before the name calling.
He actually won because Jordan was flustered, and couldn't respond back in kind.
🤨 did you watch the whole debate? People were literally booing Dyson. The polls have Fry and Peterson as clear winners
Will Strong Except that he did respond? He just didn't ramble on about 4 different things. He got to the point.
Jonathan O'Leary
He didn't call him a name, he pointed out Jordan Peterson's individual characteristics.
I'm no professional, but did the angry black man tell the angry white man that he could use his racial slurs against Peterson under certain conditions, and those conditions have to be inferred by the accused party? THAT'S his justification? Conditional racism? He's so bad at back peddling I'm not even sure he can ride a bike the proper way. Can the left please get some proper representation so that these rinse-and-repeat political debates aren't such a joke.
Dyson believes that if his sentences never end that people won't notice that he has no point.
...How is calling someone a "white man" a racial slur? How is calling someone "mad" a slur?(edited: I'll concede "mean" as a slur) Honestly, how is what he said not a (arbitrarily specific) observation? Mr. Peterson is clearly an angry man (evident in his response that prompted Mr. Dyson's comment), and was specifically angry about the obligations of his "white privilege" meaning he literally just finished identifying himself in the exact same group. But it felt like a jab, frankly because Mr. Peterson clearly resents the residual social pressures placed on him by circumstances outside of his control by generations of men who happen to look like him, imo. Of course he has an agenda to eliminate SJW type rhetoric and "group think", because the vast majority of the issues they address relate to policy, actions, and attitudes created by the group he just so happened to be born into. He's not wrong in almost anything he says, btw. But if you can't recognize this clear core bias in the bulk of his diatribes, you aren't paying enough attention and just getting caught up
What you are arguing is that individuals are only responsible unto themselves, therefore action enacted and supported by a group, can't be identified by said group; only by the individuals within said group...? So, for instance, in a society with a long history of patriarchy, that have created imbalanced power structures woven all throughout society, it's unfair those disenfranchised by that imbalance to specify the "male" aspect? How then do u clearly address the problem? As to your point of your individual obligation, of course no one "has to do" anything. In the context of the example I gave, it isn't an obligation for a man in that society who actually cared about the equality of it's citizens to actively work toward improving it... but it speaks to the nature of your character, your actual concern for the conditions that exist, and the dismissal of which would disqualify any empathy for your/his insistence on respect of his individualism... He would have disrespected an entire segment of the population by demonstrating a lack of genuine concern for their present issues and conditions.
Macen Payne, Caucasians have wrong so-called Black people (Hebrew Israelites) for centuries so if you want to label Dyson an angry black man he definitely has good reason to be. Whats the angry white man's excuse?
"The ability to play gracefully with ideas".....and there you have it. From one one of greatest Irish writers of all time.
May your rugby ever endure. From 🏴
Just because your thought process is stuck 300 years in the past it doesn't mean all black people's thought process and progress is stuck that far back, Dyson.
SugarSmear spot on!!
Some people don't know who they are without that identity, it is like people who become their disease.
100% agree. Dyson unfortunately disempowers black people more than he even realizes.
Indeed.
i would have asked them this question
ruclips.net/video/oOT5pYU9A2c/видео.html
Two americans debate against free speech with a Canadian and a Brit, what a twist
Rusty Shackleford Incredible irony indeed.
Rusty Shackleford The answer to the middle of life in 2018: it's a backwards world
let's just say the US was not well-represented here!
A New York Jewess and a black man to be precise. Not really a twist.
*Eagle dying noises*
Imagine if Peterson said you’re a mean Black man.
Bob Down People would have clapped and everyone in this comment section would have cheered him?
The sadness is that this entire comment section is proving the actual point he is making.
Minorities can't escape their physical reference. One physical reference to express how hypocritical the idea of political correctness is from white mean who express ideas without empathy.
Chad what empathy do you feel for white people as you attempt to destroy them using political correctness.
Whatever4690 As I try to destroy them using political correctness? Please point to a PC phrase that I used? PC is not something befitting application to me.
Well, as a black male raised by an entirely white family, I have total empathy for all people, oppressed or not.
I could be missing things, but the only two societal privileges afforded minorities not afforded white males is that black people can call each other n***a, and black stand-ups can make jokes about white people and not vice versa. All I can think of.
And honestly, there have been plenty of times where I've expressed how stupid I think that is. Additionally, if you could search my post history, you would see my railing against the blanket use of the phrase "racist" where bigot, prejudiced, or ignorant are far now accurate.
Yet Chad you support a man who is pushing for normalization of racism against white people, who's idea of debate is to shout racism until the opponent is silenced.
A man who basically is a hate-monger with no empathy for white people at all.
Here in the UK political correctness is becoming tyrannical.
there is no way you can look at dyson, and not see through him as the race-baiting, pseudo-intellectual that he is.
The calm and focus of Jordan Peterson are remarkable (as always). People like Michale Dyson make the left look like a fool. It is sad that a pastor chooses to also be a bully.
it's scary he's a pastor... spreading the "word" and that racist line of taught.
welcome to the world of religion
Just as the right, the left is not some homogeneous block represented by a group of people acting in a certain way. There are lots of people in between the extremes.
As a progressive leftist myself, I find Dyson extremely offensive. He wails about not being seen as an individual while simultaneously reducing someone to their skin color.
She forgot to mention at the beggining that Peterson also eat babies.
Bartosz Kamiński of you dont believe this man than Google it
Not black babies though, as he is racist.
I heard he also farts thunder and shits Snickers bars. Dude is a god among men.
Hahaha. Eggs. He eats eggs. But context means nothing to these people.
xD
Dyson spewed lots and lots of words that meant absolutely nothing.
Not true, opnely calling your opponent an angry white man is 100% racism.
I dozed off during his opening speech and woke only upon hearing the words 'Mr. Peterson' - That's Doctor Peterson to you, mean mad black man...
Like most rap music.
Apparently reading a thesaurus makes you a highly regarded “intellectual” among the victim groups...
On the positive side, this video actually helped me to fall asleep quicker than intended thanks to mr dyson’s attempts at making a point while trying to sound smart assisted with some good old sjw wisecracks. Who woulda guessed that’d be the cure for insomnia maybe he is a genius 😭
I came for the Peterson.
I stayed for the Fry.
xTheTruth72x
How is “relishing transgression”a positive thing?
How is “contesting conformity” a positive thing??
How is Doubt according to Him (“positive doubt”)
Really positive when the only doubt I know that is positive is giving others “the benefit of the doubt “
Not doubting, the benefit given to others.
How is skepticism and confusion a positive thing???
How is being gay (happy) and laid back about serious issues over which people kill each other a positive thing?
Nothing wrong with being light but using an “angles flying” analogy to make a serious matter which was obvious in this sophisticated debate(Peterson vs Baptist)
So light that he doesn’t believe in angles himself as an atheist to begin with??
I’m sorry but this guy was the only one that seemed the least serious.
(Lack of seriousness in a serious situation gets you suspended from schools,places of worship, funerals, the Army and where ever decipline is necessary.)
Whereas the Lady was trying her best to understand the the situation to the best of her ability but he cut her off couple of times.
And the Baptist was crying about his forefathers
And Peterson worries about the comments made by that guy.
Like seriously 😒????
This happening in Canada???
I mean if it was the U.S would possibly make sense
But no it had to be Toronto
(Few minutes from my residence)
Really????
Jordan wasn’t the only one shocked
To the People in the comments above (not everything is Hollywood-and Entertainment)
There are over 7 billion people on The planet 🌎
Not everyone watches (Hollywood or Bollywood)
Welcome to The Real WORLD
@@mohsinakhtar7876 Ctrl V
Lol same here , not just really smart but kind .. love him
angelo cacchione he’s the smartest one up there.
@@mohsinakhtar7876 Well . . . if you're transgressing so as to show that a ruler's beheading all his opponients is wrong . .. you could find a way to seta good example.
If you'refusing to agree with Hitler's goose-stepping troops - that could be quite positive . . . . .
What a great and genuine guy this Stephen Fry is, he can borrow my car any day ; not many i can say that to..
As someone of mixed race, i find Michael Dyson the only racist on the stage!
@@knaugde What do you mean?
@@knaugde someone's been watching too much star trek
TexanGamer 🖖
And homophobic 😂 ‘don’t get excited’ ‘I see the way you’ve been looking at me’ to a gay man. Steven Fry was right to say don’t flatter yourself 😂
I agree bro
Mr. dyson proudly combats racism but somehow manages to ridicule JBP on his skincolor. Wow
Shkarter
Well, Peterson is white, so you can't actually be racist toward him, right? I mean you can't be racist toward the racial majority in political power in the West, right? (sarc)
I've been spamming Dyson on IG for a re-debate.
I didn't have anything against Dyson before, or during, this debate, but then he had to make the "mean angry white man" comment. That, sir, loses you your seat at the adult's table.
Shawn Moore I agree
I bet there are a lot of colored brothers and sisters who believe Dyson was absolutely correct in his critique of peterson
Wild MissingNo unfortunately, if that's true, they are inherently ignorant.
Robert Lee James Welch we see, after many debates, that clips are taken and reimagined to support whatever figure supports the ideology..
Crasher it was a stupid thing for him to say. It has no shelf life.
I would love to see this debate again 4 years on. Especially with what has happened to JK Rowling because of political correctness and Stephen Fry's friendship with her
This was absolute garbage. Stephen was right. There was no debate about political correctness. Jordan was right. Dyson is not interested in debating he is interested in insulting and asserting only. Michelle just refuses to see any perspective other than her own.
I agree about Dyson but Michelle seemed to meet them in the middle a couple of times. Oddly she said she's anti censorship and political correctness when enforced is censorship. She also stated she's not always pro political correctness she was more debating Jordan on some of his definitions. I'm on the con side and am a big peterson fan but it was nice to hear a civil devils advocate. Unlike Dyson who really just threw any opportunity for discussion and resolution in the trash.
balduran2003 Very well put.
It was a mess of a debate. One with background knowledge who is deep into this topic for ages. One with common sense. And two who just want to hear their own voice and get mad at the other two for not having the right opinion.
I Googled it. You got it wrong Michelle.
Gordon Graham your right all the left do Is misquote Mr Peterson they almost get it right only change a word which make a whole world of difference. Is a character assassination. He did well not to keep biting. How does he keep so calm
All he did was pose a question about the parameters of the workplace.
Yep
Peterson never said he wanted to forbid make up in the work place
He was trying to explore what are the aspects of sexuality and psychology in the workspace by observing human behavior as sexual beings, as fundamental baseline before adressing of how you would to go about suppressing sexual tension in the workspace without introducing a unilateral group based tyranny.
Unfortunately most his adversaires are either not clever enough to understand this framework or simply they are only looking for something to politicise and distort into stigma, for their own egotistical gains on the political/media scene.
woody Jud That's *Doctor* Peterson to you buddy.
Here's a link to Jordan's makeup comment in the Vice interview. ruclips.net/video/VSOwhAjhjdQ/видео.html
0:00:00 intro titles
0:03:43 *OPENING REMARKS BY MODERATOR* (Rudyard Griffiths)
0:10:32 audience poll, before debate
0:11:20 *OPENING STATEMENTS (6 mins.):*
0:11:32 Michelle Goldberg
0:17:45 Jordan Peterson
0:24:06 Michael Eric Dyson
0:30:23 Stephen Fry
0:36:37 *REBUTTALS & ADDITIONAL POINTS (3 mins.):*
0:36:57 Michelle Goldberg
0:40:11 Jordan Peterson
0:43:08 Michael Eric Dyson
0:46:19 Stephen Fry
0:49:33 *MODERATED DEBATE*
1:40:22 *CLOSING STATEMENTS (3 mins.):*
1:40:30 Stephen Fry
1:43:53 Michael Eric Dyson
1:46:31 Jordan Peterson
1:49:15 Michelle Goldberg
1:52:13 *CLOSING REMARKS BY MODERATOR*
1:55:45 *BACKSTAGE REACTIONS:*
1:55:56 Jordan Peterson & Stephen Fry
1:59:20 Michelle Goldberg & Micheal Eric Dyson
2:03:10 *CLOSING REMARKS TO ONLINE VIEWERS*
Doing God's work!
You da real MVP
cheers for this
Ty
You my friend, are a legend.
The problem with political correctness is that people are no longer simply considered to have said bad things or to hold bad views, they are now considered to be bad people as a result of those things/views. We don’t engage respectfully with people and explain/debate why we think those things/views are bad, we just attack the individual. Look at this debate, only one person resorted to personal attacks on their ‘opposition’ and it was the most vocal supporter of the concept of “political correctness”.
This aspect is totally underrated. How can we learn and grow, if we can no longer make a mistake? Plus, all the Black / White - Ally /Enemy - Think kills all reasonable discussion, creating echo chambers and forcing liberal and open minds towards extremist views.
Not just them their children roo
Well said. I would add an example to the attack on a person’s value you so eloquently articulate. In her closing statement when Michelle alleged Jordan Peterson’s position on makeup, he attempted to clarify it by saying he didn’t say that. Michelle’s response is to tell the audience to Google it, and he can’t even stick up for what he knows he said or didn’t say because she undermines him right in front of her.
Only one person resorted to personal attacks? Which one? I’ve only watched the first half hour so far, but already Goldberg opened by attacking Peterson’s character and misquoting him, and Dyson spent his entire opening mocking Peterson and degrading him for being a white man.
These two “award winning authors” on the left are a joke. They can’t find an argument so all they can do is attack Peterson.
Well said. The first thing a leader does to gain support is dehumanize the opposition by throwing them all in a box and labeling it "evil." Instead of trying to defeat the PERSON instead focus on defeating the IDEA that has ensnared that person. You'll suddenly find that they're not evil at all, just fooled by a nasty idea.
Imagine if Peterson had called Dyson, a mean old black man...Just imagine, no really think about it.
blockTorque it's called a double standard
Dyson wasn't being mean until Peterson started cursing and yelling at 1:04:30 I think Dyson took Peterson's tone and fury as a personal attack at him which led to him saying the "mean white man" meme.
Lol..it would be reduced out of context like",trump called immigrants animals"
blockTorque ohhh nooo my white privilege
blockTorque imagine if whites went through slavery instead
Can anybody also clearly see how envious Dyson is of Jordan's success? Obsessing over Jordan's massive book sales and social media following, simply amazing.
That man is an insecure turd of a human being. What a poisonous, pompous little creature.
I love how, according to Dyson, Peterson's success had nothing to do with spending 3 DECADES researching and compiling a full life's worth of experiences and molding them into Maps of Meaning, and then exploding /accidentally/ onto the mainstream stage due to Bill C16 and his opposition to it, and THEN becoming a best-selling author.
Dyson needs therapy
And how he stands up to copy Jordan.
Craig Walker Yeah He needs a therapy on the fact that he survived a lot of social intimidation and knows a lot about it... But he can not argue (well identified) about the origine of this violence. American and Canadian as things different... And you can not compare and put in same jar both historical violence against slavery. Canada did not have rebellion/violence national push...
When he can: Dyson is just punching any face that looks like any supremacist white senior... In this case JBP... He is a white man who speaks against censorship of free speak, and other stuff reliated.
Dyson ruined this debate.
Thomas Yes, he largely highjacked it with constant claims of white male racism. At the end he even used straight white male as a pejorative.
That's hilarious bringing in sexuality since blacks are generally more homophobic than whites in America.
Thomas I'll thumb this way up, like when Dyson panders to the crowd with his thumb. Dyson insults Peterson and then feels personally upset about it ... then puts all the history of black people in America on him and then tosses several things he thinks Peterson might feel about it. Ugh, its maddening. He's blaming Peterson for his own shortcomings as a speaker. WTF, does having to visit a black anything have to do to make anything better? He's talking a rich educated black guy right there. Why can't he articulate it? Hes just so intellectually dishonest.
Thomas
So did "Lady Pitty"
Agreed. Dyson is all bully and emotion. Ad hominem.
Steven Fry obliterated Dyson with a single well placed insult.
Fry was the only intellect present and it’s plain as day. The rest are outrage generating and attention grasping “hucksters” in the extreme.
@@dynamo1796 You mean to tell me that Peterson, the clinical psychologist, former professor at Harvard University (back when that meant something), multiple time best selling author, isn’t an ‘intellect’. By which, I assume you meant ‘intellectual’.
@@deangreen2567 going to a University and then aggressively shouting your views to the world does not make you a thinker. It just means you’re a Uni graduate with a loud mouth.
And yes, I did mean “intellect” as it’s a correct form of the word in the case that I used it. Thanks for trying to correct me though.
@@dynamo1796 “going to a university and then aggressively shouting your views to the world doesn’t make you a thinker”.
Are you aware of just HOW impressive his academic track record is? He was accepted to study at both The University of Alberta, and then later McGill University - two of the most prestigious universities in Canada.
He had a five year teaching spell at Harvard University working with their Psychology Department, back in the 1990s, when education was actually rigorous, rigid, and less politicised. He then went on to teach for decades at the University of Toronto - both Harvard and Toronto being two of the most highly thought of institutions in the world.
I take it that you’ve never heard of the ‘h-index’ have you? It is a method of ascertaining just how credible an academic is based on the amount of peer reviews, citations, and consistency that an individuals work is found to have. It demonstrates just how much impact an intellectual has had on their respective field.
To elaborate further, a reasonably successful scientist may have a h-index score of around 15-25 after about as many years. What Jorge Hirsch - the creator of the system (which is widely accepted and used to this day) claims that an “outstanding scientist” may have a h-index score of around 40, after 20 years.. only the truly unique garner a h-score over 60, and even that may take more than 20 years to do so.
The h-index score essentially tracks how influential you have been in your respective field, how widely accepted your research is, and how much it has contributed to the work of others. One cannot obtain a higher compliment as an academic, than other academics using their work to promulgate their own ideas.
So, you must be wondering where Peterson ranks in this realm, to which the answer is 51. Studies show that the average of a Nobel Prize winner is 62, and Peterson is both young and active enough that he will likely approach this benchmark. He is in the top 50 most cited clinical psychologists in human history - and has been cited over 11,000 times.
But yeah.. he’s just been “aggressively shouting views to the world” for 40 years. Because ‘Dynamo’ on RUclips said so. Eat your wheaties and go to bed.
@@deangreen2567 Hahaha look at yourself - writing bootlicking essays on RUclips to defend Peterson? Amazing.
The guy isn't an intellect. Also the H-Index you must literally wank off to going by how much you love it has been debunked by a number of journals including Cornell.
Lastly - thanks for proving my point :D Shouting your views loudly while waving a degree at someone doesn't make you a thinker. Thankfully no one will ever accuse you of any intellectual burden.
Funny part is Dyson thinking this went very well for him.
Check him out, rocking back and fourth and fiddling with papers after realising the irony of the situation. After throwing an unwarranted racially motivated verbal attack at Dr.Jodan Peterson the crowd did not react as he expected. The ironic reality showed the hypocrisy of a mean man...who just so happend to be black.
I do sincerely hope he noticed the booing of the crowd, on his distasteful utterance of thoughts.
con won with a less percentage than at the beginning
I'm so glad that people saw him for who he is. The dude just preaches hate
Well According to a whole heap of African Americans he did!!!!!!!!!!
Dyson says he wants to be treated as an individual but all of his arguments are based on "his experience as a person of color", so hypocritical
"Come with me to a black church"
Seems like such a childish thing to say in a debate
TommyTom, to me it shows he needs someone else to debate for him. He needs someone else in church to say what he is incapable.
No,it is only a tactic to bully JP. Idea is debated one on one, crowd can only scream it louder.
I went to a black church one to attend the funeral of a friend who died if cancer. I was NEVER less welcome in my life. So: who are the REAL RACISTS?
TommyTom if only we all came to each other’s churches - there will be no tribalism... lol
Come with to a black church so you hear me preaching more of my victimhood with a background soundtrack of group singing!
Dyson is the definition of the devision we see today. He attacks the opponent during a debate, raising racism while being racist.
How are Michael Dyson and Michelle Goldberg unable to construct a single argument for political correctness? They're not even talking about political correctness.
You're white
I think due to fact that their only argument is a childish one. Probably along the lines of "Any speech that hurts my feelings should be illegal."
Typical postmodernist tactic - if your argument is weak, just redefine the topic and then proceed to talk about something completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Oikophobe, it is whataboutism at its finest.
i loved the way she trembled at the end interview, like the last 2 minutes of the video.
omg, peterson said he didn't say what i said he said!!!!!
but it was a vice interview!!!! google it!!!!
yes, most of us saw it, and most of us also saw the extended version and the hit job vice did on peterson loool
fixed "so" typo into "saw" ^^'
i feel bad for Michelle Goldberg having to debate both Jordan and Stephen all by herself with Dyson just pointlessly talking shit on the sideline
that is actually a very fair point😂
all she could focus on was Peterson.
@@ginobenetti3528 Stuck on feelings not on political issues. She shouldn't be there if she can't drop her feelings when debating.
Hmmm Hmmm precise
A display in sophistry, avoidance and fallacious reasoning such as Dyson's is rare indeed. How horrible is it that this man is educating our young people in universities?
you're so racist for daring to critiscize a black person.
That guy is so filled with hatred it's tough for me to watch.
Ironically for someone who's supposedly arguing for political correctness, his vitriol is sickening.
streglof 😂
I kept having to tell myself "this is why we need free speech, to be able to hear the drivel that people like this are saying".
"mmmmm, mmmmmmmm, mmmmmmmmm" - Michael Dyson, when he's outmatched but feels like he's got to get something in there. Kind of like a baseless objection in a courtroom.
Wow... Dyson just says a whole lot of nothing. A mish mash of unnecessary words meant to sound intelligent but just comes off as pretentious.
Crafty Vegetarian83 yeah besides true intellectuals like Jordan, people who use big words end up saying allot of nothing.
He is such a try-hard idiot. Ugh.
Pretty much, he sounded like a teenage girl who learnt some new words and couldn't wait to drop them to sound smart.
Crafty Vegetarian83 Dyson is quite an elegant speaker. I was impressed with his public speaking ability. Although their was little substance behind what he said and his debating tactic was flawed.
Well, he is a preacher LOL.
SUMMARY: Jordan Peterson: _"Tell me what I have to do so that my skin tone is not continually held against me, and tell me what you believe constitutes Leftism going too far."_ Goldberg & Dyson: _"Blah blah 200 years ago blah blah here's some things you didn't say but I'll pretend you said them anyway blah blah you's a mean whitey."_
I love how JP managed that chaos by sticking to those two general points (ideally meant to lead to specific answers but open to general discussion of course)
Russ Ian E. Lection-Hacker that is the point you fail to get. It’s not about you as an individual white person in that order it’s about systematic foundation that has already been laid out for you if you put a little effort in achieving your dreams as a white man. And that is why Eric dyson said we as black people are 300 years behind not because we victims or want your pity he is literally just stating the fact.
Holy fuck I burst out laughing when I read this, great post you win today
Micheal Conis no you fail to get that being a benefit of it puts him (JP) ten minutes ahead
blacks are ten minutes behind
africa china and india citizens are decades to hundreds of years behind
and these white patriarchy males are descendants of the place where these advantages were built slowly and imperfectly with a 1000 year guide
If you travel to say africa or india and try and enjoy the level playing field by “years “ you will understand the privelage all non white males and all females of all races have in the west in the “absolutist “ ( not!) white patriarchy !
NOT
Russ Ian E. Lection-Hacker Systemic racism in the United States? Think again.
ruclips.net/video/phPXTWJhnYM/видео.html
Right from the opening, Goldberg slanders and attacks Peterson's character. A pure unintelligent hatchet-job. Where do you find these people?
cant fight the ideas, besmirch the character. classic lefty tactic.
She's a blogger! Wow - what a brilliant mind.
FitnessBusiness Success so is Frye what's your point?!
I think you would find highly trained versions of Goldberg taking gender and ethnic studies courses.
If either of the Weinstein brothers had been with Dr. Peterson (btw did you notice that woman kept calling him Mr. Peterson - what a putdown) they would have both eaten those two on the "pro" side WHOLE.
In a world where conversations and intelligent debating have taken backseats to yelling at each other behind the protection of the internet, we need far more of these public debates. Whether you agree with one side or the other, the victory comes from the fact that we actually learn from these organized discussions and get excited as a result. The Dyson/Peterson face off was absolutely fantastic.
Michael Dyson says everything and it means nothing. He uses complex word structure and high level vocabulary to disguise the fact that he is speaking nonsense.
Exactly...plus , without a shred of evidence, he not so subtlly accuses Peterson of being offended by his intelligence as a black man. Dyson is obviously a racist who loves projecting his racist attitude onto others. Really disgusting.
Joanne Caradonna hearing Dyson speak this is actually the first time I've ever listen to a person who is openly racist. He hates white people and doesn't even try to hide it.
I know...It's pretty disheartening that he was given any consideration for being part of the debate, let alone chosen to be part of it, given how openly racist he is.
Welcome to post modernism 😃
Andrew Uhlian .. exactly .. Dyson probably earns millions this way .. its just blah blah ..
Having watched the 2 hour debate, I'm not surprised at why Jordan Peterson might have been slightly, if not very, annoyed
George K he was absolutely livid and rightly so
I feel like I'm a liberal untill I hear a liberal start talking. This was rediculus. Learn how to debate a subject
Anchor Bait be a classical liberal
Anchor Bait all 4 up there are different types of liberals, technically speaking
I would say that the 2 in favor of the motion are progressives, not liberals.
Liberal is no longer descriptive, it's just a label.
Wiz Ziw yeah, especially in the US. That's why it's so difficult for people from different countries talk about politics, they use the same words but they mean completely different things.
Dyson is insufferable.
“Blah, blah, blah, I’m a victim, poor me as a black man, 300 years ago this and that”
😑😑😑
I did google it and she completely misquoted Jordan Peterson.
yep. Peterson should have said: "Exactly! Google it..."
Right, he only threw the idea to hear the response from the interviewer, and, correct me if I'm wrong, he even clarified in the same interview that he wasn't suggesting women shouldn't wear makeup in the workplace.
She deliberately and intentionally completely misrepresented what he said in that interview.
Yes I too saw that interview his whole point was where is the boundaries of interaction with men and women in the work place and only used that comment as an extreme view, a book end if you will (of which he wasn’t an advocate) only as a starting point he also used the other end where women could come to work in lingerie as another extreme so where’s the line of appropriateness? He was simply posing a question not a statement, which would have been a great one for this debate if they had stayed on topic.
MrRhurbarb, sorry, but you are mind reading there. We don't know if it was deliberate or if she is just blinded or stupid or misinformed.
Stephen Fry is bloody brilliant.
He has rhetorical talent, but he didn't really say anything. And the things he did say were dumb
John Doe Did you have a little trouble understanding?
John Doe he did a great job of staying on topic!
He is brilliant, but he wasnt much use here.
Agreed. I would have loved to have heard a lot less Dyson/Peterson and a lot more Goldberg/Fry
you dont start a vineyard with wine....you start it with grape seeds. Michael Dyson is proof that being verbose does not equal having an intelligent thought.
Clearly he was transmogrifying the wine and the vineyard with the edification of the substantiative multiethnic struggle of chattle slavery over the past three hundred years by our white brothers according to the inherent beauty in the writings of Derrida and Foucault, you mean, angry white man!
Yep. All show and flowery words, but lacks understanding and context. In other words, an idiot.
Dyson's use of language was amusing.
Would've been cool to have listened to a debate without having race constantly being shoehorned in at every turn. I did find it humorous how Michelle nervously danced around saying that she was marginalized, while Dyson just glared at her. Perfectly encapsulated the point of the debate.
I find it ironic, that a Canadian and a Brit, have to defend the ideals of Freedom of Speech, to a couple of Americans from the Land of the Free
konung
if you were listening and honest you would know that America has never been the land of the free for everyone.
I guess you never lived under a brutal dictatorship? If not, you really have nothing to compare to.. I do.
Konung
I am black living in a country that practices white supremacy and terrorizes its non-white citizens.
I don't need to live under a dictatorship to know what the suppression of freedom and justice looks like..
elliott brown And that country is in the Middle East under Shira Law~
elliott brown Lol, nice victimization.
The reason that Trump and Brexit in Britain and all kinds of activist are succeeding is not because of the triumph of the right. It is the catastrophic failure of the left. - Stephen Fry
Once again, "will that be Fry with that"? YOU BET.
MK TAN That was epic!
James Richards fair point, but I think when people say that those things were the results of the failure of the left, they mean it's what tipped the scales so to speak. If it weren't for the behavior of the authoritarian left, Trump and Brexit probably wouldn't have happened. That is not to say that there weren't many other factors at play.
They were words of wisdom. He really described the real cause of the problem by two sentences
I'd disagree with him on that, I'm British so I can't speak with any authority on American politics but in terms of Brexit, it's absolutely nothing to do with left or right.
Brexit is just about regaining sovereignty from an unelected, authoritarian and unreachable group dictating all aspects of our domestic daily life.
The arrogance and rhetoric of Michael Eric Dyson makes him insufferable. Pompous oratory and shallow ideas “brother”…
He's a preacher man like his hero, Barry Obama.
Sue Smith Obama wasn't ever a preacher, unless you mean as a minister for the Church of Obama.
Obama I can respect. This fucker, though? Nah.
I came here for Prof Jordan Peterson, Stephen Fry was a brilliant cherry on top.
I dont understand this
Steven fry is such a master depator why everyone be coming for Jordan??
Debate about Political correctness. Left side talks entire debate about race and gender. Classic.
Dyson was explaining why it’s illogical to suggest getting rid of identity politics. How can one stand on his indivuality alone when the game of identity politics is still being played in spaces of power and is opposing those individuals who don’t share the same reality or perspective? Any suggestions? Wouldn’t it make sense for those opposed with less power also to enter the game and align with others? Identity politics will forever perpetuate itself and Dyson is explaining why. We’re all tired of viewing life through an etnicity lens it’s atiquated. I guess political correctness is acknowledging history.
Dyson didn't explain anything, that's not what he's about if you didn't catch it from his overuse of 10 dollar words and blatant race baiting and personal attacks in a debate setting. It's disturbing to see comments like yours, it's like you didn't watch the same debate. There was interestingly a study done on how adequately conservatives see liberal's stances and vice versa (also including moderates), and liberals scored the lowest with those describing themselves as "very liberal" scoring significantly lower than everyone.
All 4 of them are leftists. I argue/think that Peterson sees himself as the academic that should have lambasted the socialist intellectuals on both sides in the first half of the 20th century, but instead were silent. So he takes up the only position he can to confront them. (not that I wish to put words in his mouth but its my summary of his work)
Fry was talking love, Peterson was talking truth, Dyson was talking hate, and Goldberg was just talking.
tvd berg
If we’re not talking about race and gender, then what is political correctness?
I don’t see people upset because we use the word car instead of automobile.
Only snowflake in the room is Dyson who states falsehoods
You're white.
And you're a troll, get out
"Dyson DESTROYS himself by proving the oppositions points!" :-D
“Ok, now this is epic”
"Watch Dyson DESTROY arrogant racist leftist. MUST SEE"
The two Americans talking only about American issues, the Canadian and Brit talking about more global situations. Dyson can certainly accused of performing the actions he is arguing against. Peterson was mostly calm throughout, Dyson was aggressive. Dyson’s interaction with Fry and Fry’s ‘don’t flatter yourself’ comment was borderline homophobic…’you are gay so you must fancy me’. Fry’s retort is clearly one he has had to wheel out many times.
Not just (at least) borderline homophobic, but creepy as hell as well, to make it sexual without ANY prompt
@@dunkelfuchs3195
This debate is a train wreck. Dyson is not the only problem, although he clearly is a racist. The lady shows why the NY Times is in deep trouble, and Fry and Peterson simply had no opponent here.
What a mess!
Not only her ideas. At the post-debate hallway interview, that woman spoke in the most grammatically incorrect constructions possible, like a 7-year-old. It's shocking a NY Times writer has such a poor command of English.
Yeah, it was a shit debate. You get what you can from it though.
Hey check out how wrong you were, just six months after your comment
NYT published the article www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/style/women-poop-at-work.html
So CLEARLY their standards are still there. Now don't you feel silly...
Exacly my thoughts. I kept thinking: "The radical left can bring more of a challenge than this. Surely there must be more articulate, unbiased, debate-capable people."
I don’t believe you don’t understand what an actual debate is. These people gave a platform for people to discuss a topic. The debaters are the ones who are doing the actual debating. Sure there is a moderator, but ultimately it’s the debaters who are bring their content. Now I’ve only begun the video so I can’t speak to Dyson being a racist, but the excerpt of video I’ve witnessed definitely showed Dyson relying heavily on ad hominem to sway the public instead of talking about the subject at hand