"Well you know what? That's ok. It is what it is." No. It's not ok. They turned Devil Jin Into old Kazuya with a launching hell sweep with no pokes. Jin is the new Devil Jin. They completely screwed the Mishimas up.
yeah like I was trying to understand where he was coming from, but a few of the points he makes are extremely biased and it kinda sounds like he was making excuses for his nerfs. I understand what he means by the character being more fun to play now as his design has never been so sick along with the new moves they gave him, but when the rest of the roster is so goddamn strong and easy to play, and the fact that you have to have extremely good fundamentals along with good execution, movement and character knowledge, just to play even remotely well with Devil Jin, the work/reward output is extremely low in comparison and it should NOT be this way for Devil Jin. I love DvJ not being an easy pick up and play character, you have to work hard to and put some serious hours in to be good with and master him, but whats the point when you get nothing out of it? As much as these other characters that can blow people up so easily without much work or thought in the approach, nerfs are the last thing he needed. Not all of us can be as good as Momo and all those hours us DvJ mains have put in we're getting barely anything out of it, and now his gameplay is becoming a bit stale since everything is getting nerfed. He should at the very LEAST be top 10.
@@DemonSaine it would be in Momo's best interests for DJ to be tourney viable as well. Because at the minute his channel is taking the same path as Mainman Swe.
@@kab1r it honestly just doesn't make any sense that he's not, he demands so much effort from the player its like how is he not strong anymore? I'm really hoping Murray convinces them to buff him like he said. As far as mainman's channel what do you mean?
Tbh not everyone has your skill to call the character good. I still believe DJ is the weakest character in the game not Panda. Even if Panda is worst on paper that doesn’t matter because he is way easier and no one knows the matchup.
So true 😂 low /high level gameplay panda is way better comparing it to devil jin since panda has a variety of moves + knowledge checks which devil jin doesnt. High level peps see devil jin and itll automatically assume the hs gameplan which where really force to use at some point while comparing to panda thats has a variety. It still dependent on the player but devil jin just demands more than panda
I also think, regarding the statement “as long as you’re not playing the top tiers of this game, you can win with Devil Jin without putting in much more effort than your opponent,” the issue is that in competition, we ARE playing against the top tiers of this game…A LOT of them. 😅 So, just wanted to throw that in there, more for my own mental processing out loud because it gets frustrating. Just needed to say this somewhere I could be heard and understood. 😂
THIS. indeed , as the elo get higher against top tier characters combined with very good players, the more dvj demands skill and funamentals to get that W 💯💯 truly a painful but rewarding experience based on mine so far
imo Devil Jin SHOULD be consistent and strong enough for tournament play. It doesn't make any sense when lore wise he's literally the strongest character in the entire franchise and it should reflect that in his gameplay. You shouldn't have to say "as long as you don't fight the top tier characters then you can win". He should be a top tier character himself especially with as much work you gotta put in to be even halfway decent with him. Hard to play characters should be rewarded in a game where the unimportant side characters are somehow in the top 5 and that goes for other characters too in my opinion.
@@michaelpacheco6549 the man was using an incomplete form bruh. No horns, no claws until he actually lost control of his actions. We saw what he looked like when jin actually gained full control like kazuya has (with the black and white wings). Kazuya himself said he could've beaten him back in new york.
the character just doesn't make sense nerf after nerf but he needs better frames for his basic tools. you have to work and think 10x harder than most other characters because of how bad his neutral tools are. Besides his non-existent neutral game, he just works too hard for little to no reward with extremely high risk. I agree hes now more than ever a specialist character but i think simple buffs to his neutral (df1, d3, generic d4, and his jab) would just make his character so much easier to use. I also don't want uf4 knd with either good oki or free b4. He just needs better frames.
I want to say something in response to your point about not playing enough. I play A LOT. More than I’d like to honestly, because I believe in this stupid-ass character. 😂 And I will say that regardless how much I play, Devil Jin’s design demands more of me as a player than any other character in this game would. He’s playing move-for-move, read-for-read, step-for-step, with no breaks or easy outs, something that I think is non-existent in Tekken 8 outside of this character. So while yes, we could play more, grind more, and study more, I think it’s also true that no other character requires this kind of time and precision to get the same results. So there’s some nuance there as well. 😊
Yeah, they definitely have to change something about him as to not feel subpar on his rewards compared to other Mishimas now. Kazuya damage buff was mindboggling to me
@@Momo-DogKazuya has always historically had absurd damage, though I agree getting 74 damage easy combo from electric launch is kinda weird, 79 with good execution.
@@Momo-Dog every kazuya player cry for buffs and they buff him if you say it's ok then they will never gonna buff him .... Everyone knows that dvj is now the weakest character in the game
I mention this topic in the video, there's two perspectives to keep in mind; a casual's perspective and a competitor's perspective. A competitor who pays money to attend tournaments and plays video games for a living should not be playing Devil Jin in tournaments currently. A casual should not care about the nerfs so long as the character is fun to play for them.
@@Momo-Dog I think you should try entering tournaments still. If the Devs really use character usage stats hopefully they might do something about this character.
@@Momo-Dogthis comment was about the third perspective: tournament audience. They miss out on seeing Devil Jin succeed in large part because of the sorry state is in. It was incredible fun to watch Devil Jin in T6 Tekken Crash. And it was great to see Qudans Knee and others pilot DVJ during T7 on the biggest stages with the highest stakes. Or even Qudans making an appearance as "the final Boss" during an official online tournament in Korea. Right now, we can only see Qudans struggling and even losing vs players that he would beat if DVJ was not this weak ( and bugged hitboxes resulting in drops).
Personally, I don’t think every character needs to be tournament ready. More than anything, it makes it all the more exciting when they do show up in tournaments. Devil Jin might not win any tournaments, but he’ll be really great to watch if he does show up in tournaments, which I think is more important when it comes to tournaments. I think it’s better to have a more entertaining tournament than a super competitive and fair tournament. Of course the lines aren’t black and white and it takes a balance of both competitive and entertaining fights, I’m just saying that having entertaining rather then competitive characters is also important just like having competitive characters is important. Even from a game design perspective I feel the designers would prefer to begin by making a fun to play character, then tweaking its competitiveness. Balancing is a long process, there will always be unbalanced characters, for better or worse, better to have a fun but unbalanced character then a balanced but boring character.
The only buffs that i want on Dj is his generics back, buff the dmg on hellsweep back to release, and make Demon paw on par with other mishimas. Otherwise, I think he is alright. I just want old df1 2 again. Please 🙏
@@HellCat_Kenny so maybe they should buff other mids? No, they need to make dvj the weakest in the game so nobody will play him. Ah, they already made him the weakest char
I agree with your take on the character, the most fun part of devil jin is the plethora of combo routes you have, and it can always be improved with better execution/intuition. Im not trying to win evo or anything, i just wanna do some cool shit and mix my opponent up :p. Also good luck on your studies and exams
Thanks for this. It’s so hard to talk nuance in the current version of the FGC, and you did a great job of this today. Thank you for validating my thoughts and feelings as a 20-year Devil Jin main. ❤
He is a hard character to play and it’s reward to win with him at to level. He also have fun features to use when playing. It’s fun when you catch them with it
I love DJ, but let's be honest, he need gameplay redisign. I want use some moves, but everything lunchpunish for no reason, so we Forced to do 10 attacks over and over again.
I think the main argument is effort to reward. It’s brutally low. Just gets frustrating, even though I love his design, style, etc etc. He is fun and you absolutely are right, no one should drop him because what matters is *fun* - but it can be so tiring working at 300% when the remaining cast is needs to give their 100-150% at best.
I think his effort is appropriate when you become really optimal with the character. It's just that the journey to becoming optimal with the character is super difficult.
@@Momo-Dog I think it’s okay for the route to optimization being difficult, but do you feel as if someone investing lets say 300 hours into Devil Jin will get the same returns as someone investing 300 hours into any other Mishima? (Will exclude meta picks here, we all know the answer lol I’m currently messing around with Dragunov when taking breaks from Devil Jin and it feels like I switched on a secret easy mode) I do agree with you that at the average online level almost everyone is viable, but in simple terms Devil Jin does not carry at all after beginner/early intermediate play and investing the effort into him while rewarding and imo will make you a better player overall execution wise, he’s still the runt of the pack in regards to the Mishimas and it’s a shame.
i have the opposite conclusion tbh, if you win with dvj you win despite the odds so you're definitely better than the opponent. if a victor wins he's carried so he isn't exactly better.
@@Momo-Dogwhat a bullshit statement I’m sorry, you are better than me at the game but your analysis is VERY bad As are Knee and Arslan, way better than me at the game … still their call as DJ being top 5 was absolute bullshit (like 99% of people analysis) Devil Jin is trash, no mid, shakle is being whiff punished even out of range MC is a trash stance Hellsweep hella steppable No tracking WHATSOEVER … just SSL and his done unless iws2 (one move) No usable string The list goes on and it’s like that since d1 but yeah you can win with him cuz you play lesser opponents Play people with world tournament level that play even mid tier characters and we’ll see how it goes
@@TheNonHiddenSingularity - "no mid" HES STILL GOT LASER SCRAPER WHICH IS A TOP 3 MID IN THE GAME. - No tracking? Laser scraper still the best mid tracking move in the game, EWGF can easily track with decent movement - Hellsweep needs to be steppable considering it is the best move in the game - "No usable string" - Laser scraper - "MC is a trash stance" MC is not a mixup stance, it's an okizeme tool Please don't speak to character specials in that way about characters that you don't even understand the basics of, very disrespectful to say "your analysis is VERY bad" when everything he said is objectively true.
One thing that could actually help him would be df2 going into MC even on block, giving him a decent poke that wouldn't be broken like the old uf4 into b4. it would be a decent check poke that leads into mixup... don't know if that would be enough but it would be super fun to do at least
Damn guys momo got paid off All jokes aside he is fun to play but its like playing on hard mode, at least for me anyway in mighty ruler, this is my first run at taking tekken seriously enough to learn combos and frames etc so a bit salty at all the nerfs he's received Did make me learn reina though so suppose there's that
With all respect to Momo-dog I, as a casual, think you fell into something like a pro-player buble. Just from my bottom-red ranked point of view: it’s really cool that characters are different, it really is. They may require different skill and time to master. However I think, it shouldn't be so demanding. You see, I like DJ too, but there is so much techniques required for him, which needs literally months, if not years to make kinda consistent. Just to mention few: KBD, waveu-waveu, EWGF, iWS2, this damn input trick with WS3 :) and more. The point is: I’d like to finally enjoy playing the mind games, learning matchups and cool plays, instead of spending thousands of hours on learning how to move(!) because I need i.e. KBD. It may sound stupid to pros and you may think “that’s the whole point of the game dude!”, but again, from my perspective it’s just a bit too much and I wish DJ was little easiest to pilot. Cheers and thanks for all the material you provide! :)
You picked the wrong character if you want to learn Tekken and don't want execution requirements. If you want the same gameplay as DVJ but easier and just as strong, you should pick up Jin, a character without execution required that does what DVJ does but better (though you'll not have a broken Hellsweep anymore). Characters like DVJ, Steve, Bryan appeal to people who want a challenge, and want to feel rewarded for practicing untold hours, a fighting game needs to have characters that appeal to this type of personality, otherwise everyone would be playing fuckin Alisa or smth you can turn your brain off with
@@KSRD thank you for advice. I cannot deny your logic, but I'm that terrible case, who pick character he likes, based on overall vibe and design, not skill requirebments. Here I'm just like Momo "I'll play him no matter what" :) So I guess I just don't have luck with this pick :P
more charge punch, got it 👌 this was a good introspective chat about where dj currently is. he feels like a very misunderstood character... stuck somewhere between t7 and t8
I agree strongly with your view of the character and of the game in general, yeah he might not be the strongest but he's way more fun than anyone else for you and for me. Plus I love the fact that you can use unblockables in combos due to stage hazards with this character, he looks really cool. I started playing Tekken seriously (I mean trying to actually learn about the game and not mash just for fun) in T7 season 3 and I started with Kazuya. In this game Kazuya is way more fun than in T7 but Devil Jin is on a whole other level of fun in my eyes. Thank you for sharing this with the tekken community, people need to stop comparing characters and enjoy the character you pick because you like him and not because he's strong. I never took the time to write this but you helped me a lot in becoming a better Devil Jin player so I look up to you, thx for sharing your knowledge of the character :)
There was a trend for me after the patch where I'd end a session saying that next time I would just pick Kazuya or whatever other strong character. But every time I boot up the game I always feel like playing Devil Jin. I just love the character aesthetically and his combos are so fun. Obviously I would prefer the character was in a better state but it was honestly pretty cool to realize how strongly connected I feel to my main.
I love the design of this character in T8 and I had fun playing with him but it gets to a point where it's really exhausting trying to be optimal and doing your best to playing him well. The execution barrier on its own is already pretty high and the fact that you have to work really hard to make some of his stuff work, it's pretty exhausting. I hope Bamco buff him in the future
Respect the opinion although I do think he absolutely needs the old uf4 back or something that works like it. And I'd like to see him more in tournaments. But I see where you're coming from.
Strongly agree, Devil Jin needs a PhD-student mindset to overcome his complexity, unlock his full potential and enjoy his coolness at his fullest. Too bad I get to play T8 like 2-3 hours a WEEK on average and that means I get (and will get) constantly bodied.
The mind boggling part is that they even nerfed the CD4,1+2 which they're forcing his identity around lol Like,they made this ONE move his entire identity and its a move that's death on block and very little reward for the risk you take (41 damage vs kazuya,optimizing,hitting you with 93 damage plus wall carry LOL)
@@Ro-fw3lc There isn't a debate here it's an unseeable low launcher, it was the best move in the game in T5, it was the best move in the game in T7. Until they make his HS like it was in T6 and TTT2 where it's a CH launcher he will never be a character that can be balanced again
The T8 playstyle makes him not weak, but he's weak in areas he shouldn't be weak. Most of his play is fundamental anyways, and samsara is still a God move at all ranks. IMO Devil Jin's identity is in his timing and feints, jacking up the opponents timing for defensive/movement options. They've given DvJ so many set ups, you pressure the opponent to go into the defensive like crazy. You have a great dmg absorbing parry that forces the opponent to rethink their game plan with strings, allowing you to restrict the moves the opponent chooses.
I really like the idea of keeping the hellsweep damage provided you can only do it in heat. That almost kept his original identity that he was super scary in heat. I agree though the game is more fun now!
Hi Momo, I've heards about you from the TMM's channel, and I've seen you doing some mad sh*t to him. Like he said, you are most likely #1 DVJ in Europe, but if someone told me that you are #1 World I would believe that. Gonna sub, cause you truly are entertaining to watch. Anyways... Of course that makes your opinion on the character much more valuable to other people than some average Joe's, but sadly that's the majority of the Tekken community, including myself. Let me elaborate. Devil Jin gave me so much joy it's insane. I loved him to the point when I couldn't wait for another Tekken game to be released, starting from Tekken 5 DR on PSP, until now. I love everything about him, except the effort I have to put in to win matches. Even though I'm not capable of performing some basic Mishima tech, I work around other moves to compensate for my lack of skill. And because of that I think I might have some insight into DVJs literal basics, cause the things I can't do are mostly related to movement (wavedash, backdash, crouch cancel, sometimes even electrics). Outside of that I know the entire move list. I do win quite often without them, but I feel exhausted, cause I feel like I don't have many things to work with + I keep comparing him to other Mishimas and crying as a result. Bare in mind, if you think that these are necessary to play DVJ, do not bother reading further, cause I might embarrass myself. Tbh I'm proud that my current peak with DVJ is Tenryu. I do believe I can climb higher though, since my Dragunov is one rank above (120 hours of ranked experience in Tekken 8). Personally, I think he lacks lows. Outside of generic lows and we only have DB2, a laser, and maybe this jumping forward slide that you do from a wavedash. And honestly I'm struggling to think of anything else... obviously Hellsweep is a great tool, but man, when I play vs Kazuya I hate my life. His poking is... it's not extremely bad, but it's not versatile at all. DF1, B1 and B2, DB2, F1+2... and what else is there really?. I can get away most of the time with using these all the time, but if you keep "spamming" them, even players my rank can adjust to that. The best part is that if they know the matchup they also know that you can't really do much in the first place and they just press into you. Sometimes Samsara, B3 and the special parry seem to be the only options. Mids and highs are completely fine, although the FF2 nerf is a joke and a half. What do you think Momo? Should Harada do something about this, or should I just get good at the game in the first place? Not trying to talk about balancing, but I think DVJ needs more love as a Mishima.
What do you think about keeping him the same but just have more insane damage? Like you have to work and outplay the opponent in neutral with it being so committal and bad poking but you just nuke them off most hits when you do get in? That seems like a better balance direction to me but I am tekken noob so idk
Lets say they did change hellsweep to only launch in heat but it places the opp forwards and not backwards… in your opinion, would that broken? Because on paper, that would make his heat an actual scary threat but still play around his hellsweep identity and his new wild moveset
Yo momo, do you have advice to land while standing 3 in the combos? the timing feels very strict and I can't land it over than 1 in like 8-10 attempts.. Great video changed my perspective on the character
I totally agree with basically everything you said. The thing that bothers me the most is the fact this character was balanced around things that they took away (mainly the heat smash, which is on its own a thing I just dont like about this game) and once they were gone he just did not get anything in return. I like his new stuff, I think having a way of turning the 10 hit combo into an actual combo is the wackiest funniest and most satisfying thing Ive seen in Tekken in a while. I did not know that when heat dashing out of mc 2,2 you could actually add a mc 3 into the mix. Thats crazy, and I guess it comes to prove your point.
I'm just gonna be honest, I hate playing party characters with a passion and was legit shocked that they yook away most neutral fundamental tools just for DJ to start partying like a gimmick. Scamco can fuck thselves, i did not pick him up in 6, tag2 or 7 because i wanted to party like yoshi's, i wanted a character that grew with the player and only became a threat if the player becomes a threat. Instead now i'm wondering why in Tekken 8 i can't even bare minimum do legacy shit anymore with him or what the point is in picking a character whose playstyle you like if scamco with a heartbeat can just change half his moveset when they feel like it. Insult to injury is when people tell me to pick up someone else. Why, so scamco can change the complete fundamental playstyle, gameplan or the existence to begin with?
He is kinda weak, but aside that, his biggest problem now is probably repetitiveness, do to the nerfs his options became more limited, especially starting in the blue ranks, where many don't even crouch, cause his lows are quite bad, and having to be quite defensive makes him very repetitive, and it's not that it becomes boring, but it gets harder to win, cause you get very often figured out quick, the character is still fun, at least to me, but it does get annoying very quick to lose very often.
Oi Momo, I noticed that you usually used 1, 2, 2 after the guard break with the full charged unblockable, what do you think about a 50/50 with the Hell's Swipe or the crouch dash 1+2 soon after that string?
Hej Momo, thanks for the crispy DVJ content you provide :D I picked up tekken recently when 8 was released, and I also Love to play him. But I struggle with having a defined gameplan/strategy with him; and playing neutral feels frustrating. Do you have plans for doing an educational video, where you go over what moves you use and how you play in neutral ? That'd be really awesome :) Ps: Viel Erfolg bei deinen kommenden Prüfungen
Thank you for this! Really expanding my mind on Dvj, and looking for other ways to push his offense in this game compared to other character's gameplan. Really demanding more skill and fundamentals to get that W in higher elo 🤔
fingers crossed they bring back the MC oki off 112, that shit was soooooooooo fucking sick edit: i got an idea while you were talking about hellsweep, what if they made cd4,4 knockdown for the MC oki along with cd4 1+4 being heat only? i think that would be pretty sick
kazuya needed those buffs he was horrible to play until the last patch. I want devil Jim to get some normalizing and bring him up a bit but I definitely dont want to return to the days where he was always S tier. Appreciate your pragmatic take on the character
A specialist character has a specialty, an area where he shines, and is better than most others. The problem with dvj is I see the work you put in but not where he shines, where I am rewarded. Highs maybe, they're quite good and versatile. Other than that, too steppable and no oki.
For me, i really like his design in this game (as in game design). I really hated his whole combo structure in T7 and found him really unsatisfying to play so i stuck with Kazuya. In this game i really just adore how he plays, to the point i pretty much switched mains. Laser cannon as the main tornado tool along with u1+2 into heat engager, ws3 and db1+2 in general and mourning crow really changed my whole perspective on the character.
i hate his fundamentals and how they changed it in t8 (df1, generic low, ect), it feels like they wanted to prioritize the new morning crow stuff but then they did a 180 and went back on a lot of stuff he had, which sucks cuz he had a lot of potential to be both fun and good not op
Man. Your loyalty towards Devil Jin and how he was your reason to buy Tekken 8 is like me with Lars. I’m know I can improve with him, but I just don’t have the time to grind and lab him more often, soon I will be able to improve but Lars it’s in a total perfect place, it’s just me who is bad and gets tilted pretty often. But yeah, I respect your opinion about Devil Jin and I might try to play him as a sub main 😄
Funny enough, my favourite Mishima was Jin in Tekken 7 and my least favourite was Devil Jin. Now in Tekken 8 its Devil Jin my favourite Mishima. I still like Jin, but IMHO he has lost a bit of personality with all the "demon" movements he has in Tekken 8; I always saw Kazuya's movements too stiff and clunky and my smooth brain and fingers can't deal with the intense stance heavy Reina even if I like her visually a lot. IMHO apart of the "weakness" of his movements, the lack of plus frames movements on block and the "honest" kit he has it what it makes him more "predictable" and difficult to win with compared with other "frametrap" or "knowledge check" characters. Maybe should be implemented a "back" Mourning Crow, similar to the old Kazumi's Warrior Stance? Still not gonna drop it, since is one of the few characters I enjoy play with. I have some hope that with the launch of Lidia, Devil Jin will see some buffs.
HARD AGREE! He is exceptionally fun to play, just making him T7 DVJ will be boring as fuck, he needs some very SLIGHT BUFFS and most of the cast just need to come down 1 click! Jab needs a tiny range buff D4, should be ever so slightly better CD4, 1+2 should be locked behind heat because then it’s uniform with CD 1+2, 1+2. Decrease the heat cost! By doing this, they should give back his old CD4,4 SAM 1 is finicky to combo from, open up the combo routes. MC3 is also finicky as an OKI tool in my opinion, maybe a slight range buff or make it come out a frame faster. I also think it could be cool if we could go into FLY STANCE when MC4 is blocked by holding up. If the opponent is quick then they can run in and punish us, BUT if they are slow we can catch them running in
@momo-dog yo I play on console and I play mishimas always on the p1 side my wavedash always glitches or the character sidesteps. Is it me or is there a bug in the wave dash? On p2 side I get it on point but p1 side I struggle. Can you please shed some light on that. I would see pros and other players do the wave dash effortlessly on p1 side. I use d pad btw. Any advice would help 🙏🏾
Nice video Momo! I feel like you're protecting whatever dignity is left of DVJ and his community, especially since the patch itself was great. People seem upset from being outvalued, especially by cheap moves, easy mix-ups and flowcharts. Tekken is notorious for this though, it doesn't just happen to DVJ, and this will still happen to DVJ even if he gets buffed. It's too easy to feel cheated in this game. However, with those easy characters: since your learning experience isn't challenging, you might get bored and lazy, impairing your improvement; victories may even feel hollow, and defeats inexcusable. I'm not a big fan of the general opinion that "if a character has difficult execution, it should be strong", I think buffing a character undervalues it's execution inherently. Taunt jet is always sick, but it's even more sick when Bryan is balanced or weak. Being able to perform high execution moves faster or more consistently is a long journey, with many milestones. To me, who only plays DVJ, these milestones feel extremely rewarding, in both character strength, depth and enjoyment. Maybe I'm happy with anything now- they forced me to eat an entire bucket of dirt, "patch 1.03". Any other dirt would have tasted better.
I’m a T7 DJ main and while I do typically play the simple Mishima style as my base. I’ve really enjoyed the creativity this new iteration of DJ lends to. Every thing about the character is super fun. So I’m playing him regardless even in tourney. I’m not here to win I’m here to show off execution and do cool shit lol
To me he finally has an identity in t8. Has weakness finally. In past he was just perfect which was dull. He could get some buffs ofcourse like hellse gate and making df2 ch do simething more but overall he seems very unique
In tekken 7 after 5.00 he wasn’t perfect at all. And in t8 after so many nerfs he’s just can’t fight half of the cast. He’s unique, but this uniqueness doesn’t cost much if character can’t highly reward you for big effort that you put into him. Devil Jin always needed big effort to be strong, but now even with great effort he’s mid tier at best. IMHO
He needs buffs to be at least high tier. Bamco nerfed his key mid heat engager (ff2), other mids are slow (cd1+2), punishable (ws2 that also hard to do from wavedash) or doesn’t do anything special without heat (uf4 can only wall splat). They wanted us to use other mids more, but other mids just weaker/harder than ff2. Before 1.05 they nerfed his heat smash. It was the only op thing he had. Now it’s just common heat smash which majority of the cast has. King heat smash is unique because it deals 64 damage when most of them does 50-55 damage. Paul heat smash is unique because it was -12 on block low that hard wall breaks. Other low heat smashes are -14 or -15 on block. Devil Jin heat smash was unique because he could approach opponent from enormous range and it was a great threat on distance. Now it doesn’t.
Momo, is there a way to cancel shackle after heat smash against yoshimitsu? as far as i can tell, if he blocks your heat smash, when you shackle into mourning crow even holding back he still gets a flashbang on you
What’s bro chatting abt 💀hes not fun at all, maining devil Jin is a L waiting to happen. Even with amazing fundamentals and techniques the character is so limited 9 times out of ten you have to try 4 times as hard as your opponent. His hell sweep combo damage is ass , his forward 2 Is trash even his poking is garbage, his forward 4 is leaves you super vulnerable, his mids are literally mid and even his jabs feel trash.
Assalawalaikum wa rahmatulla Momo We need more content creators/pros like you in the Tekken community. It feels like our community in particular gets very easily frustrated and part of it is the nature of the game itself. We lose to someone in ranked and we have a preconceived notion about the opponent's character because of a youtube tier list we watched and we immediately blame the game balancing instead of our own skill and shortcomings. That gets extended when we watch those characters that were bodying us do well in tournaments and it becomes natural instinct to assume that the pro is getting carried by the character as well and undermine their effort and skill. This leads to just constant negativity and a cycle of complaining, buffs, nerfs, and overall makes the activity of playing Tekken less fun. Someone like you pointing out that just because a character is not the strongest doesn't mean its not fun, in fact, the exact opposite of that might be true is a huge positive leap for the community and I don't care if you make enemies for saying that out loud because the people who might turn on you will still think about everything you said and eventually start understanding it (too optimistic?). If anything I wish you had a bigger platform and more people could hear your words. Although I hope bamco never hears your words or watches your videos because they might nerf devil jin further instead of buffing him if they ever found out about you lol The state of devil jin always makes me chuckle because he is Michael Murray's main. Cuz when we see how Harada's main is treated on the other hand... 😅
I see what you mean I personally still think he is the worst character in the game but he is really Fun to play and figure out new tech so I’m supporting you bro
Would be really cool if they just fixed the current state of heavens gate, both at the wall and with heat. The reduced scaling with heat is insanely over tuned and needs to just be returned to its original damage. And there was absolutely no reason to scale the delayed wall combo heavens gate out of unsability considering how difficult it was and how few people actually used it. Id rather the character stay a bit weaker and remain a spcialist character than get over buffed into an easy mode op state, but a few buffs that reward specialization like the delayd heavens gate wall combo would be neat.
I love Devil Jin since T6, but after all those nerfs he is literally unplayable, too weak to sidestep, literally every move is super punishable for no reason, lacks lows and quick mids, and now even his heat smash isn't scary anywhere, which was his only true power. He has often no respond to other high tier characters something like Jin, they can just force their way out of your attacks, and pressure you to death.
Watch the video atleast 3x to properly understand it but the only thing i got out of it is how his moves , the fundamental ones are flawed and less of what they used to be but at the same time his fun because of different combo routes ?. I been a devil jin main since devil within and unlike those game, devil jins tools just dont work will in this game specially when the tools he has(the new ones) was made for mid range which isnt much seeing its slow, easy to counter which spells dead while having a clear weakness in close range. Back dash is nerf, the d4 is almost useless, the df 1,2 was a shadow of its former self , bf 12 is lesser(lesser homing) than it used to be. I also agree that they shouldnt bring the old devil jin back since its tekken 8 , new game needs new things in the table but what makes it sad is that the devil jin carried in tekken 8 is somewhat identical but lesser and weaker. They gave him new tools only for it to be nerf and act as just there instead of actually being useful. Dont get me wrong , you can still use those but only just in case. It still boils down to ff2, jab, df1, electric and hs that the old title offers. Which those i mention is no where as near to what they used to be. While lets take jin as an example, he retain most of his moves which are stronger and better plus the new tekken 8 tools (i compared them cause there jins 😂). I kinda agree about bringing back the old uf 4 to knock down since it doesnt really have anything to offer and just a carbon copy of ff2 albeit slower but only post heat like mc 22 for the follow up or just make it a different move thats useful. A more variety is very much welcome anyway. I do agree that its sad the the balance was revolve around hs and that everything was nerf, even the hs itself even tho devil is really reliant on it. The removal of 112 to mc oki which didnt make sense as well the ferrari tech. Devil jin right now needs 3x as more effort than any other characters which gives lesser reward for all that. We practice alot more and we get bodied as much in actual match. No matter how tolerant you are at losing alot inspite you giving alot of time for it still make you question alot of things. The charge was a really cool addition for him in tekken 8 and help and certain set up which i really learned alot and will still keep learning on utilizing it properly. I highly respect and understand my G momo 's opinion alot since i learned from him but the only thing i actual learned in this video is that it just reinforce how weak devil jins fundamental and tools right now and where just force to use them csuse there just there 😂. Also the video really contains a lot of contradictions cause theres positive her then negative there but ultimately for me the cons just way outweighs the pro leading to my understanding that devil jin is weak and needs buff. We practice devil jin for better execution alot of hrs compared to others even lose alot only to have little reward if we do find success just put him way below
Nerf hellsweep, nerf heaven's gate, nerf heat smash, nerf demon paw. Bamco should have not included DVJ in the first place if he won't even last for half a year.
The only buff devil jin need is hell sweep damage buff, heat smash range, crow 22 shouldn't be Launcheable only punishable And b 1+3 should absorb a little more And a homing mid Df1 should have counter hit properties
I don't like this version of Devil Jin, not because I can't win with him, but because he has to work TOO hard to gain SO little advantage that can be easily stolen back. I talked to my gf about this, and for me personally I wouldn't mind his changes but they'd have to give him the following moves back: 1) D+F 1,2 2) WS 1,2 AND 1,4
I’m at a point where I don’t care what they do to devil jin, I enjoy playing him too much to drop the character and I’ll stick with him no matter what.
I can agree with some of this. It has bothered me that people want devil Jin to get broken stuff back. Like why would you want uf4 flip oki? It was so braindead there is literally no expression of character with that. Same with his old heat smash and the original MCW1. If they do buff DJ he needs very small changes. I would like to see 1+2 be cancelable again, a slightly buffed df12, and CD1+2 and improve the frames on a lot of moves. Just small improvements will go a long way. But wishing for brain dead buffs is just plain silly.
the whole concept and narrative on the character being less 'fun' if it gets 'uf4' for example getting buffed is not convicing being weak is what strips out the fun out of a character
I don’t really want abnormal buffs to DVJ, just really buffs to his small tekken. If his neutral is going to be ass and subpar, at least make it worth while with my poking when I’m up close: 1)1,1,2-> there’s two ways you can go about this, you either keep his trash range but give him his old oki back or buff his range but no oki. 2)Df1,2-> I’m sorry, I know you may disagree but give him his old df1,2 back, his current one is decent but nowhere near as good as his old one. 3)df2-> his current df2 is fun and gimmicky but it’s not really good for poking or small tekken. Keep the current df2 animation locked behind his WR1,2 and give him back his generic df2 again. Sure DVJ has an easy 15f launcher in can-can but most DVJ’s don’t use it or use it very seldomly in poking because it’s a death sentence on block, so give him his old df2 back so he doesn’t take as much of a risk and it’ll help out his small tekken. 4)3,1-> this string is only useful in combos and nothing else. It was obviously intended to be used in strings as well since it has a forward, forward cancelable input and 3,1,4 is a CH launcher, but then why the fuck is 3,1 mid, high? The higher you go up the rank ladder, the more unusable the string becomes because they’ll just duck the 1 on reaction and WR2 punish into full combo. It makes more sense to have 3,1 be mid, mid so then you get into a guessing game of whether the DVJ will commit to the full 3,1,4 string or cancel it into nothing, etc. There’s two other buffs I have it in mind but it doesn’t have to do with his small tekken so I’ll keep it to myself
His d4 being worse then previous iterations is my main gripe. I just want one more low poke to cycle through, everything else can remain untouched. I disliked him when he at the top; now that hes much more "fair", i also feel the same with having much more fun then just coniditoning a hellsweep and winning/losing in 3-5 interactions.
i will also never drop dvj im surprised we are similar, although im not like godlike with tekken but its the same case with dvj, ill play him regardless whatever harada throws at him One thing i do to make him super oppressive is spam his heat moves, really useful on open field neutral, just free plus frame and chip damage just throwing out cd1+2, 1+2 and uf3+4,1+2 although uf3+4 is side steppable, cd1+2 isnt and it caughts people off guard and using b,f+2,1,4,1+2 when opponent is on the wall is also pretty good, then one pixel of my heat i go for heat smash then it makes dvj look like really oppressive, and thats the way i am playing him rn but now i learnt the true use of db+1+2 maybe ill start using that more
For me I don’t care what character it is just put the damn effort in no matter what unless you know truly know the devs messed up that character so bad that the character can’t be played
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
"Well you know what? That's ok. It is what it is."
No. It's not ok. They turned Devil Jin Into old Kazuya with a launching hell sweep with no pokes. Jin is the new Devil Jin. They completely screwed the Mishimas up.
yeah like I was trying to understand where he was coming from, but a few of the points he makes are extremely biased and it kinda sounds like he was making excuses for his nerfs. I understand what he means by the character being more fun to play now as his design has never been so sick along with the new moves they gave him, but when the rest of the roster is so goddamn strong and easy to play, and the fact that you have to have extremely good fundamentals along with good execution, movement and character knowledge, just to play even remotely well with Devil Jin, the work/reward output is extremely low in comparison and it should NOT be this way for Devil Jin. I love DvJ not being an easy pick up and play character, you have to work hard to and put some serious hours in to be good with and master him, but whats the point when you get nothing out of it? As much as these other characters that can blow people up so easily without much work or thought in the approach, nerfs are the last thing he needed. Not all of us can be as good as Momo and all those hours us DvJ mains have put in we're getting barely anything out of it, and now his gameplay is becoming a bit stale since everything is getting nerfed. He should at the very LEAST be top 10.
@@DemonSaine it would be in Momo's best interests for DJ to be tourney viable as well. Because at the minute his channel is taking the same path as Mainman Swe.
@@kab1r it honestly just doesn't make any sense that he's not, he demands so much effort from the player its like how is he not strong anymore? I'm really hoping Murray convinces them to buff him like he said.
As far as mainman's channel what do you mean?
@@DemonSaine an in just an entertaining Tekken RUclipsr but never competing in tourneys.
No pokes? We have laser scraper which is most likely the best mid poke in the game 15 years later
Tbh not everyone has your skill to call the character good. I still believe DJ is the weakest character in the game not Panda. Even if Panda is worst on paper that doesn’t matter because he is way easier and no one knows the matchup.
So true 😂 low /high level gameplay panda is way better comparing it to devil jin since panda has a variety of moves + knowledge checks which devil jin doesnt. High level peps see devil jin and itll automatically assume the hs gameplan which where really force to use at some point while comparing to panda thats has a variety. It still dependent on the player but devil jin just demands more than panda
I agree making Devil Jin work is nowhere near as easy as e.g Panda, bit of an ignorant statement from my side
I also think, regarding the statement “as long as you’re not playing the top tiers of this game, you can win with Devil Jin without putting in much more effort than your opponent,” the issue is that in competition, we ARE playing against the top tiers of this game…A LOT of them. 😅
So, just wanted to throw that in there, more for my own mental processing out loud because it gets frustrating. Just needed to say this somewhere I could be heard and understood. 😂
THIS. indeed , as the elo get higher against top tier characters combined with very good players, the more dvj demands skill and funamentals to get that W 💯💯 truly a painful but rewarding experience based on mine so far
imo Devil Jin SHOULD be consistent and strong enough for tournament play. It doesn't make any sense when lore wise he's literally the strongest character in the entire franchise and it should reflect that in his gameplay. You shouldn't have to say "as long as you don't fight the top tier characters then you can win". He should be a top tier character himself especially with as much work you gotta put in to be even halfway decent with him. Hard to play characters should be rewarded in a game where the unimportant side characters are somehow in the top 5 and that goes for other characters too in my opinion.
Lmao lore wise he is not. He literally got his ass handed to him by Kazuya.
@@michaelpacheco6549Yea that's because kazuya got that upgraded devil gene
@@michaelpacheco6549 the man was using an incomplete form bruh. No horns, no claws until he actually lost control of his actions. We saw what he looked like when jin actually gained full control like kazuya has (with the black and white wings). Kazuya himself said he could've beaten him back in new york.
Following the lore is the easiest to kill a competitive game
Exactly my thoughts. The Mishimas should rule.
the character just doesn't make sense nerf after nerf but he needs better frames for his basic tools. you have to work and think 10x harder than most other characters because of how bad his neutral tools are. Besides his non-existent neutral game, he just works too hard for little to no reward with extremely high risk. I agree hes now more than ever a specialist character but i think simple buffs to his neutral (df1, d3, generic d4, and his jab) would just make his character so much easier to use. I also don't want uf4 knd with either good oki or free b4. He just needs better frames.
I want to say something in response to your point about not playing enough.
I play A LOT. More than I’d like to honestly, because I believe in this stupid-ass character. 😂
And I will say that regardless how much I play, Devil Jin’s design demands more of me as a player than any other character in this game would. He’s playing move-for-move, read-for-read, step-for-step, with no breaks or easy outs, something that I think is non-existent in Tekken 8 outside of this character.
So while yes, we could play more, grind more, and study more, I think it’s also true that no other character requires this kind of time and precision to get the same results. So there’s some nuance there as well. 😊
Yeah, they definitely have to change something about him as to not feel subpar on his rewards compared to other Mishimas now. Kazuya damage buff was mindboggling to me
@@Momo-DogKazuya has always historically had absurd damage, though I agree getting 74 damage easy combo from electric launch is kinda weird, 79 with good execution.
@@Momo-DogKazuya’s effort/reward ratio was dogshit before the patch. Now its in a strong spot as it should be
@@Momo-Dog every kazuya player cry for buffs and they buff him if you say it's ok then they will never gonna buff him .... Everyone knows that dvj is now the weakest character in the game
Sure he may be fun to use but is he tournament viable? Sadly we probably won't be seeing this character winning any EVOs.
I mention this topic in the video, there's two perspectives to keep in mind; a casual's perspective and a competitor's perspective. A competitor who pays money to attend tournaments and plays video games for a living should not be playing Devil Jin in tournaments currently. A casual should not care about the nerfs so long as the character is fun to play for them.
@@Momo-Dog I think you should try entering tournaments still. If the Devs really use character usage stats hopefully they might do something about this character.
@@Momo-Dogthis statement needs to be pinned in every tier list and current state of char. Video of every content creator.
@@Momo-Dogthis comment was about the third perspective: tournament audience.
They miss out on seeing Devil Jin succeed in large part because of the sorry state is in.
It was incredible fun to watch Devil Jin in T6 Tekken Crash.
And it was great to see Qudans Knee and others pilot DVJ during T7 on the biggest stages with the highest stakes. Or even Qudans making an appearance as "the final Boss" during an official online tournament in Korea.
Right now, we can only see Qudans struggling and even losing vs players that he would beat if DVJ was not this weak ( and bugged hitboxes resulting in drops).
Personally, I don’t think every character needs to be tournament ready. More than anything, it makes it all the more exciting when they do show up in tournaments. Devil Jin might not win any tournaments, but he’ll be really great to watch if he does show up in tournaments, which I think is more important when it comes to tournaments. I think it’s better to have a more entertaining tournament than a super competitive and fair tournament. Of course the lines aren’t black and white and it takes a balance of both competitive and entertaining fights, I’m just saying that having entertaining rather then competitive characters is also important just like having competitive characters is important. Even from a game design perspective I feel the designers would prefer to begin by making a fun to play character, then tweaking its competitiveness. Balancing is a long process, there will always be unbalanced characters, for better or worse, better to have a fun but unbalanced character then a balanced but boring character.
The only buffs that i want on Dj is his generics back, buff the dmg on hellsweep back to release, and make Demon paw on par with other mishimas. Otherwise, I think he is alright. I just want old df1 2 again. Please 🙏
Also, the old properties of Wraith Kick: Knockdown on hit and guaranteed Demon Steel Pedal
I want back the damage on cd1 wall combo
That ff+2 nerf to him was criminal. "Overshadowed his other mids" bro what other mids, even the patchnotes capped.
@@HellCat_Kenny so maybe they should buff other mids? No, they need to make dvj the weakest in the game so nobody will play him. Ah, they already made him the weakest char
I agree with your take on the character, the most fun part of devil jin is the plethora of combo routes you have, and it can always be improved with better execution/intuition. Im not trying to win evo or anything, i just wanna do some cool shit and mix my opponent up :p.
Also good luck on your studies and exams
No one is going to stop me and Dj devil twister 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
Thanks for this. It’s so hard to talk nuance in the current version of the FGC, and you did a great job of this today.
Thank you for validating my thoughts and feelings as a 20-year Devil Jin main. ❤
He is a hard character to play and it’s reward to win with him at to level. He also have fun features to use when playing. It’s fun when you catch them with it
I love DJ, but let's be honest, he need gameplay redisign. I want use some moves, but everything lunchpunish for no reason, so we Forced to do 10 attacks over and over again.
I think the main argument is effort to reward. It’s brutally low. Just gets frustrating, even though I love his design, style, etc etc.
He is fun and you absolutely are right, no one should drop him because what matters is *fun* - but it can be so tiring working at 300% when the remaining cast is needs to give their 100-150% at best.
I think his effort is appropriate when you become really optimal with the character. It's just that the journey to becoming optimal with the character is super difficult.
@@Momo-Dog I think it’s okay for the route to optimization being difficult, but do you feel as if someone investing lets say 300 hours into Devil Jin will get the same returns as someone investing 300 hours into any other Mishima? (Will exclude meta picks here, we all know the answer lol I’m currently messing around with Dragunov when taking breaks from Devil Jin and it feels like I switched on a secret easy mode)
I do agree with you that at the average online level almost everyone is viable, but in simple terms Devil Jin does not carry at all after beginner/early intermediate play and investing the effort into him while rewarding and imo will make you a better player overall execution wise, he’s still the runt of the pack in regards to the Mishimas and it’s a shame.
i have the opposite conclusion tbh, if you win with dvj you win despite the odds so you're definitely better than the opponent. if a victor wins he's carried so he isn't exactly better.
@@Momo-Dogwhat a bullshit statement
I’m sorry, you are better than me at the game but your analysis is VERY bad
As are Knee and Arslan, way better than me at the game … still their call as DJ being top 5 was absolute bullshit (like 99% of people analysis)
Devil Jin is trash, no mid, shakle is being whiff punished even out of range
MC is a trash stance
Hellsweep hella steppable
No tracking WHATSOEVER … just SSL and his done unless iws2 (one move)
No usable string
The list goes on and it’s like that since d1 but yeah you can win with him cuz you play lesser opponents
Play people with world tournament level that play even mid tier characters and we’ll see how it goes
@@TheNonHiddenSingularity
- "no mid" HES STILL GOT LASER SCRAPER WHICH IS A TOP 3 MID IN THE GAME.
- No tracking? Laser scraper still the best mid tracking move in the game, EWGF can easily track with decent movement
- Hellsweep needs to be steppable considering it is the best move in the game
- "No usable string" - Laser scraper
- "MC is a trash stance" MC is not a mixup stance, it's an okizeme tool
Please don't speak to character specials in that way about characters that you don't even understand the basics of, very disrespectful to say "your analysis is VERY bad" when everything he said is objectively true.
One thing that could actually help him would be df2 going into MC even on block, giving him a decent poke that wouldn't be broken like the old uf4 into b4. it would be a decent check poke that leads into mixup... don't know if that would be enough but it would be super fun to do at least
Exams going good, alter?
They start early next month, I've honestly just been studying and meeting deadlines lately
Thanks for asking!
Damn guys momo got paid off
All jokes aside he is fun to play but its like playing on hard mode, at least for me anyway in mighty ruler, this is my first run at taking tekken seriously enough to learn combos and frames etc so a bit salty at all the nerfs he's received
Did make me learn reina though so suppose there's that
Oh man I just saw the video with you and main man! You're absolutely sick my dude!
Love your videos Mann I like hearing your thoughts on the character.
17:22 Damn being one of the best devil jin players saying his a casual aight words of wisdom hahaha
Momo is devil jin irl
DJ is weak since Day 1
Called it 6 months ago
With all respect to Momo-dog I, as a casual, think you fell into something like a pro-player buble.
Just from my bottom-red ranked point of view: it’s really cool that characters are different, it really is. They may require different skill and time to master. However I think, it shouldn't be so demanding.
You see, I like DJ too, but there is so much techniques required for him, which needs literally months, if not years to make kinda consistent. Just to mention few: KBD, waveu-waveu, EWGF, iWS2, this damn input trick with WS3 :) and more.
The point is: I’d like to finally enjoy playing the mind games, learning matchups and cool plays, instead of spending thousands of hours on learning how to move(!) because I need i.e. KBD. It may sound stupid to pros and you may think “that’s the whole point of the game dude!”, but again, from my perspective it’s just a bit too much and I wish DJ was little easiest to pilot.
Cheers and thanks for all the material you provide! :)
You picked the wrong character if you want to learn Tekken and don't want execution requirements. If you want the same gameplay as DVJ but easier and just as strong, you should pick up Jin, a character without execution required that does what DVJ does but better (though you'll not have a broken Hellsweep anymore).
Characters like DVJ, Steve, Bryan appeal to people who want a challenge, and want to feel rewarded for practicing untold hours, a fighting game needs to have characters that appeal to this type of personality, otherwise everyone would be playing fuckin Alisa or smth you can turn your brain off with
@@KSRD thank you for advice. I cannot deny your logic, but I'm that terrible case, who pick character he likes, based on overall vibe and design, not skill requirebments. Here I'm just like Momo "I'll play him no matter what" :) So I guess I just don't have luck with this pick :P
this feels like a vigil
I'm gonna use my DJ in my first Offline tournament because of you, Thx bro
Idk if it already happened, but good luck!
@@Someone_Somewhere7 I took the Top 8 😅
more charge punch, got it 👌
this was a good introspective chat about where dj currently is. he feels like a very misunderstood character... stuck somewhere between t7 and t8
U made me rethink my opinion on Hwoarang. Thx, gonna try to improve with him
I agree strongly with your view of the character and of the game in general, yeah he might not be the strongest but he's way more fun than anyone else for you and for me. Plus I love the fact that you can use unblockables in combos due to stage hazards with this character, he looks really cool. I started playing Tekken seriously (I mean trying to actually learn about the game and not mash just for fun) in T7 season 3 and I started with Kazuya. In this game Kazuya is way more fun than in T7 but Devil Jin is on a whole other level of fun in my eyes. Thank you for sharing this with the tekken community, people need to stop comparing characters and enjoy the character you pick because you like him and not because he's strong. I never took the time to write this but you helped me a lot in becoming a better Devil Jin player so I look up to you, thx for sharing your knowledge of the character :)
There was a trend for me after the patch where I'd end a session saying that next time I would just pick Kazuya or whatever other strong character. But every time I boot up the game I always feel like playing Devil Jin. I just love the character aesthetically and his combos are so fun. Obviously I would prefer the character was in a better state but it was honestly pretty cool to realize how strongly connected I feel to my main.
I love the design of this character in T8 and I had fun playing with him but it gets to a point where it's really exhausting trying to be optimal and doing your best to playing him well. The execution barrier on its own is already pretty high and the fact that you have to work really hard to make some of his stuff work, it's pretty exhausting.
I hope Bamco buff him in the future
Respect the opinion although I do think he absolutely needs the old uf4 back or something that works like it. And I'd like to see him more in tournaments. But I see where you're coming from.
Strongly agree, Devil Jin needs a PhD-student mindset to overcome his complexity, unlock his full potential and enjoy his coolness at his fullest.
Too bad I get to play T8 like 2-3 hours a WEEK on average and that means I get (and will get) constantly bodied.
BOTTOM 1 BABY
The mind boggling part is that they even nerfed the CD4,1+2 which they're forcing his identity around lol
Like,they made this ONE move his entire identity and its a move that's death on block and very little reward for the risk you take (41 damage vs kazuya,optimizing,hitting you with 93 damage plus wall carry LOL)
It's an unseeable launching low what do you mean "very little reward", it's the best move in the game for a reason, lol
@KSRD best move my ass,it barely leads to 45 damage on an optimized combo.
@@Ro-fw3lc There isn't a debate here it's an unseeable low launcher, it was the best move in the game in T5, it was the best move in the game in T7. Until they make his HS like it was in T6 and TTT2 where it's a CH launcher he will never be a character that can be balanced again
Can someone explain to me, how in 6:55 hes going for Laser Crush+Beam without back forward motion and heat? Like, am i missing something?? xd
thats the 10-hit string
The T8 playstyle makes him not weak, but he's weak in areas he shouldn't be weak. Most of his play is fundamental anyways, and samsara is still a God move at all ranks. IMO Devil Jin's identity is in his timing and feints, jacking up the opponents timing for defensive/movement options. They've given DvJ so many set ups, you pressure the opponent to go into the defensive like crazy. You have a great dmg absorbing parry that forces the opponent to rethink their game plan with strings, allowing you to restrict the moves the opponent chooses.
Lord Momo has spoken, I agree with everything in this video.
I really like the idea of keeping the hellsweep damage provided you can only do it in heat. That almost kept his original identity that he was super scary in heat. I agree though the game is more fun now!
After 4 nerfs in a row he still has some pretty solid tools to use. You just have to deal with high risk but high reward panic moves
you contradicted yourself so many times in this video its not even funny. please collect your thoughts man because you are not making any sense.
Hi Momo, I've heards about you from the TMM's channel, and I've seen you doing some mad sh*t to him. Like he said, you are most likely #1 DVJ in Europe, but if someone told me that you are #1 World I would believe that. Gonna sub, cause you truly are entertaining to watch. Anyways...
Of course that makes your opinion on the character much more valuable to other people than some average Joe's, but sadly that's the majority of the Tekken community, including myself. Let me elaborate.
Devil Jin gave me so much joy it's insane. I loved him to the point when I couldn't wait for another Tekken game to be released, starting from Tekken 5 DR on PSP, until now. I love everything about him, except the effort I have to put in to win matches. Even though I'm not capable of performing some basic Mishima tech, I work around other moves to compensate for my lack of skill.
And because of that I think I might have some insight into DVJs literal basics, cause the things I can't do are mostly related to movement (wavedash, backdash, crouch cancel, sometimes even electrics). Outside of that I know the entire move list. I do win quite often without them, but I feel exhausted, cause I feel like I don't have many things to work with + I keep comparing him to other Mishimas and crying as a result. Bare in mind, if you think that these are necessary to play DVJ, do not bother reading further, cause I might embarrass myself.
Tbh I'm proud that my current peak with DVJ is Tenryu. I do believe I can climb higher though, since my Dragunov is one rank above (120 hours of ranked experience in Tekken 8).
Personally, I think he lacks lows. Outside of generic lows and we only have DB2, a laser, and maybe this jumping forward slide that you do from a wavedash. And honestly I'm struggling to think of anything else... obviously Hellsweep is a great tool, but man, when I play vs Kazuya I hate my life.
His poking is... it's not extremely bad, but it's not versatile at all. DF1, B1 and B2, DB2, F1+2... and what else is there really?. I can get away most of the time with using these all the time, but if you keep "spamming" them, even players my rank can adjust to that. The best part is that if they know the matchup they also know that you can't really do much in the first place and they just press into you. Sometimes Samsara, B3 and the special parry seem to be the only options.
Mids and highs are completely fine, although the FF2 nerf is a joke and a half.
What do you think Momo? Should Harada do something about this, or should I just get good at the game in the first place? Not trying to talk about balancing, but I think DVJ needs more love as a Mishima.
Such a good attitude. We need more "Momo's" in the FGC 😊
What do you think about keeping him the same but just have more insane damage? Like you have to work and outplay the opponent in neutral with it being so committal and bad poking but you just nuke them off most hits when you do get in? That seems like a better balance direction to me but I am tekken noob so idk
Lets say they did change hellsweep to only launch in heat but it places the opp forwards and not backwards… in your opinion, would that broken? Because on paper, that would make his heat an actual scary threat but still play around his hellsweep identity and his new wild moveset
I'd rather not see any further tweaks regarding the sweep
Would really love seeing you compete in tournaments! Good luck with exam btw
Yo momo, do you have advice to land while standing 3 in the combos? the timing feels very strict and I can't land it over than 1 in like 8-10 attempts..
Great video changed my perspective on the character
I totally agree with basically everything you said. The thing that bothers me the most is the fact this character was balanced around things that they took away (mainly the heat smash, which is on its own a thing I just dont like about this game) and once they were gone he just did not get anything in return. I like his new stuff, I think having a way of turning the 10 hit combo into an actual combo is the wackiest funniest and most satisfying thing Ive seen in Tekken in a while. I did not know that when heat dashing out of mc 2,2 you could actually add a mc 3 into the mix. Thats crazy, and I guess it comes to prove your point.
Most delusional/copium Momo vid ever except for the part where he’s fun
I feel like all we really need is reverting his previous nerfs, other than the unfair heatsmash
He might not be the strongest but he has cool combos, drip and that's enough for me, even tho I kinda wish they addressed his jab and df1
I'm just gonna be honest, I hate playing party characters with a passion and was legit shocked that they yook away most neutral fundamental tools just for DJ to start partying like a gimmick.
Scamco can fuck thselves, i did not pick him up in 6, tag2 or 7 because i wanted to party like yoshi's, i wanted a character that grew with the player and only became a threat if the player becomes a threat.
Instead now i'm wondering why in Tekken 8 i can't even bare minimum do legacy shit anymore with him or what the point is in picking a character whose playstyle you like if scamco with a heartbeat can just change half his moveset when they feel like it.
Insult to injury is when people tell me to pick up someone else.
Why, so scamco can change the complete fundamental playstyle, gameplan or the existence to begin with?
He is kinda weak, but aside that, his biggest problem now is probably repetitiveness, do to the nerfs his options became more limited, especially starting in the blue ranks, where many don't even crouch, cause his lows are quite bad, and having to be quite defensive makes him very repetitive, and it's not that it becomes boring, but it gets harder to win, cause you get very often figured out quick, the character is still fun, at least to me, but it does get annoying very quick to lose very often.
Oi Momo, I noticed that you usually used 1, 2, 2 after the guard break with the full charged unblockable, what do you think about a 50/50 with the Hell's Swipe or the crouch dash 1+2 soon after that string?
I didn’t drop Devil Jin, I dropped the whole game. He was the only reason i play T8 and now that he is bottom 1 I’m no longer interested in the game.
That response makes me think you didn't even listen to momo... He isn't bottom 1 he maybe bottom 3 or 5 tho 😂.
Hej Momo, thanks for the crispy DVJ content you provide :D
I picked up tekken recently when 8 was released, and I also Love to play him. But I struggle with having a defined gameplan/strategy with him; and playing neutral feels frustrating. Do you have plans for doing an educational video, where you go over what moves you use and how you play in neutral ? That'd be really awesome :)
Ps: Viel Erfolg bei deinen kommenden Prüfungen
I play DJ because he looks cool
Thank you for this! Really expanding my mind on Dvj, and looking for other ways to push his offense in this game compared to other character's gameplan. Really demanding more skill and fundamentals to get that W in higher elo 🤔
fingers crossed they bring back the MC oki off 112, that shit was soooooooooo fucking sick
edit: i got an idea while you were talking about hellsweep, what if they made cd4,4 knockdown for the MC oki along with cd4 1+4 being heat only? i think that would be pretty sick
Yo momo, I’m still struggling to do the djin wr 3 tech, do you have any more tips for that?
I usually do iwr 3, but I wanna get something faster/more consistent
kazuya needed those buffs he was horrible to play until the last patch. I want devil Jim to get some normalizing and bring him up a bit but I definitely dont want to return to the days where he was always S tier. Appreciate your pragmatic take on the character
A specialist character has a specialty, an area where he shines, and is better than most others. The problem with dvj is I see the work you put in but not where he shines, where I am rewarded.
Highs maybe, they're quite good and versatile. Other than that, too steppable and no oki.
For me, i really like his design in this game (as in game design). I really hated his whole combo structure in T7 and found him really unsatisfying to play so i stuck with Kazuya. In this game i really just adore how he plays, to the point i pretty much switched mains. Laser cannon as the main tornado tool along with u1+2 into heat engager, ws3 and db1+2 in general and mourning crow really changed my whole perspective on the character.
u started playing dj in tekken 8 cuz of design? But i started playing dj cuz of you
we are different g
i hate his fundamentals and how they changed it in t8 (df1, generic low, ect), it feels like they wanted to prioritize the new morning crow stuff but then they did a 180 and went back on a lot of stuff he had, which sucks cuz he had a lot of potential to be both fun and good not op
It’s exactly what happened to my Jack. Nerf his fundamentals but only supplement it with gimmicky option selects.
Man. Your loyalty towards Devil Jin and how he was your reason to buy Tekken 8 is like me with Lars. I’m know I can improve with him, but I just don’t have the time to grind and lab him more often, soon I will be able to improve but Lars it’s in a total perfect place, it’s just me who is bad and gets tilted pretty often. But yeah, I respect your opinion about Devil Jin and I might try to play him as a sub main 😄
Did I really just watch a 26 minute coping session?
Highly educated coping*
You obviously didn’t watch it if you think that
@@hands-ongaming7180 I wouldn't need to comment if I didn't watch it.
me when i dont watch the video:
He wasn't really coping tho if you watch it. He said he doesn't care about the nerfs.
Funny enough, my favourite Mishima was Jin in Tekken 7 and my least favourite was Devil Jin. Now in Tekken 8 its Devil Jin my favourite Mishima. I still like Jin, but IMHO he has lost a bit of personality with all the "demon" movements he has in Tekken 8; I always saw Kazuya's movements too stiff and clunky and my smooth brain and fingers can't deal with the intense stance heavy Reina even if I like her visually a lot.
IMHO apart of the "weakness" of his movements, the lack of plus frames movements on block and the "honest" kit he has it what it makes him more "predictable" and difficult to win with compared with other "frametrap" or "knowledge check" characters.
Maybe should be implemented a "back" Mourning Crow, similar to the old Kazumi's Warrior Stance?
Still not gonna drop it, since is one of the few characters I enjoy play with. I have some hope that with the launch of Lidia, Devil Jin will see some buffs.
they really need to kill yoshimitsu that character is way to powerful with the only equalizer being that hes piloted by idiots
HARD AGREE! He is exceptionally fun to play, just making him T7 DVJ will be boring as fuck, he needs some very SLIGHT BUFFS and most of the cast just need to come down 1 click!
Jab needs a tiny range buff
D4, should be ever so slightly better
CD4, 1+2 should be locked behind heat because then it’s uniform with CD 1+2, 1+2. Decrease the heat cost! By doing this, they should give back his old CD4,4
SAM 1 is finicky to combo from, open up the combo routes.
MC3 is also finicky as an OKI tool in my opinion, maybe a slight range buff or make it come out a frame faster.
I also think it could be cool if we could go into FLY STANCE when MC4 is blocked by holding up. If the opponent is quick then they can run in and punish us, BUT if they are slow we can catch them running in
I think one thing I'd like DJ to have is a better Demon Paw. I play Jin on the side and it's so frustrating going back DJ and his range
@momo-dog yo I play on console and I play mishimas always on the p1 side my wavedash always glitches or the character sidesteps. Is it me or is there a bug in the wave dash? On p2 side I get it on point but p1 side I struggle. Can you please shed some light on that. I would see pros and other players do the wave dash effortlessly on p1 side. I use d pad btw. Any advice would help 🙏🏾
Im not dropping the character, just leave him alone. Please.
Nice video Momo! I feel like you're protecting whatever dignity is left of DVJ and his community, especially since the patch itself was great.
People seem upset from being outvalued, especially by cheap moves, easy mix-ups and flowcharts. Tekken is notorious for this though, it doesn't just happen to DVJ, and this will still happen to DVJ even if he gets buffed. It's too easy to feel cheated in this game. However, with those easy characters: since your learning experience isn't challenging, you might get bored and lazy, impairing your improvement; victories may even feel hollow, and defeats inexcusable.
I'm not a big fan of the general opinion that "if a character has difficult execution, it should be strong", I think buffing a character undervalues it's execution inherently. Taunt jet is always sick, but it's even more sick when Bryan is balanced or weak. Being able to perform high execution moves faster or more consistently is a long journey, with many milestones. To me, who only plays DVJ, these milestones feel extremely rewarding, in both character strength, depth and enjoyment.
Maybe I'm happy with anything now- they forced me to eat an entire bucket of dirt, "patch 1.03". Any other dirt would have tasted better.
The video description 🤣🤣🤣
I’m a T7 DJ main and while I do typically play the simple Mishima style as my base. I’ve really enjoyed the creativity this new iteration of DJ lends to. Every thing about the character is super fun. So I’m playing him regardless even in tourney. I’m not here to win I’m here to show off execution and do cool shit lol
To me he finally has an identity in t8. Has weakness finally. In past he was just perfect which was dull. He could get some buffs ofcourse like hellse gate and making df2 ch do simething more but overall he seems very unique
In tekken 7 after 5.00 he wasn’t perfect at all.
And in t8 after so many nerfs he’s just can’t fight half of the cast. He’s unique, but this uniqueness doesn’t cost much if character can’t highly reward you for big effort that you put into him. Devil Jin always needed big effort to be strong, but now even with great effort he’s mid tier at best. IMHO
He needs buffs to be at least high tier. Bamco nerfed his key mid heat engager (ff2), other mids are slow (cd1+2), punishable (ws2 that also hard to do from wavedash) or doesn’t do anything special without heat (uf4 can only wall splat). They wanted us to use other mids more, but other mids just weaker/harder than ff2.
Before 1.05 they nerfed his heat smash. It was the only op thing he had. Now it’s just common heat smash which majority of the cast has. King heat smash is unique because it deals 64 damage when most of them does 50-55 damage. Paul heat smash is unique because it was -12 on block low that hard wall breaks. Other low heat smashes are -14 or -15 on block. Devil Jin heat smash was unique because he could approach opponent from enormous range and it was a great threat on distance. Now it doesn’t.
Momo, is there a way to cancel shackle after heat smash against yoshimitsu? as far as i can tell, if he blocks your heat smash, when you shackle into mourning crow even holding back he still gets a flashbang on you
mc22 beats flash but yoshi's hopkick beats mc2,2
I hope that they won't remove him in the next game he's too much fun to play.
What’s bro chatting abt 💀hes not fun at all, maining devil Jin is a L waiting to happen. Even with amazing fundamentals and techniques the character is so limited 9 times out of ten you have to try 4 times as hard as your opponent. His hell sweep combo damage is ass , his forward 2 Is trash even his poking is garbage, his forward 4 is leaves you super vulnerable, his mids are literally mid and even his jabs feel trash.
Devil jin is good and fun character❤
Assalawalaikum wa rahmatulla Momo
We need more content creators/pros like you in the Tekken community. It feels like our community in particular gets very easily frustrated and part of it is the nature of the game itself.
We lose to someone in ranked and we have a preconceived notion about the opponent's character because of a youtube tier list we watched and we immediately blame the game balancing instead of our own skill and shortcomings. That gets extended when we watch those characters that were bodying us do well in tournaments and it becomes natural instinct to assume that the pro is getting carried by the character as well and undermine their effort and skill. This leads to just constant negativity and a cycle of complaining, buffs, nerfs, and overall makes the activity of playing Tekken less fun.
Someone like you pointing out that just because a character is not the strongest doesn't mean its not fun, in fact, the exact opposite of that might be true is a huge positive leap for the community and I don't care if you make enemies for saying that out loud because the people who might turn on you will still think about everything you said and eventually start understanding it (too optimistic?). If anything I wish you had a bigger platform and more people could hear your words.
Although I hope bamco never hears your words or watches your videos because they might nerf devil jin further instead of buffing him if they ever found out about you lol
The state of devil jin always makes me chuckle because he is Michael Murray's main.
Cuz when we see how Harada's main is treated on the other hand... 😅
I see what you mean I personally still think he is the worst character in the game but he is really Fun to play and figure out new tech so I’m supporting you bro
Would be really cool if they just fixed the current state of heavens gate, both at the wall and with heat. The reduced scaling with heat is insanely over tuned and needs to just be returned to its original damage. And there was absolutely no reason to scale the delayed wall combo heavens gate out of unsability considering how difficult it was and how few people actually used it. Id rather the character stay a bit weaker and remain a spcialist character than get over buffed into an easy mode op state, but a few buffs that reward specialization like the delayd heavens gate wall combo would be neat.
I love Devil Jin since T6, but after all those nerfs he is literally unplayable, too weak to sidestep, literally every move is super punishable for no reason, lacks lows and quick mids, and now even his heat smash isn't scary anywhere, which was his only true power. He has often no respond to other high tier characters something like Jin, they can just force their way out of your attacks, and pressure you to death.
Watch the video atleast 3x to properly understand it but the only thing i got out of it is how his moves , the fundamental ones are flawed and less of what they used to be but at the same time his fun because of different combo routes ?. I been a devil jin main since devil within and unlike those game, devil jins tools just dont work will in this game specially when the tools he has(the new ones) was made for mid range which isnt much seeing its slow, easy to counter which spells dead while having a clear weakness in close range. Back dash is nerf, the d4 is almost useless, the df 1,2 was a shadow of its former self , bf 12 is lesser(lesser homing) than it used to be. I also agree that they shouldnt bring the old devil jin back since its tekken 8 , new game needs new things in the table but what makes it sad is that the devil jin carried in tekken 8 is somewhat identical but lesser and weaker. They gave him new tools only for it to be nerf and act as just there instead of actually being useful. Dont get me wrong , you can still use those but only just in case. It still boils down to ff2, jab, df1, electric and hs that the old title offers. Which those i mention is no where as near to what they used to be. While lets take jin as an example, he retain most of his moves which are stronger and better plus the new tekken 8 tools (i compared them cause there jins 😂). I kinda agree about bringing back the old uf 4 to knock down since it doesnt really have anything to offer and just a carbon copy of ff2 albeit slower but only post heat like mc 22 for the follow up or just make it a different move thats useful. A more variety is very much welcome anyway. I do agree that its sad the the balance was revolve around hs and that everything was nerf, even the hs itself even tho devil is really reliant on it. The removal of 112 to mc oki which didnt make sense as well the ferrari tech. Devil jin right now needs 3x as more effort than any other characters which gives lesser reward for all that. We practice alot more and we get bodied as much in actual match. No matter how tolerant you are at losing alot inspite you giving alot of time for it still make you question alot of things. The charge was a really cool addition for him in tekken 8 and help and certain set up which i really learned alot and will still keep learning on utilizing it properly. I highly respect and understand my G momo 's opinion alot since i learned from him but the only thing i actual learned in this video is that it just reinforce how weak devil jins fundamental and tools right now and where just force to use them csuse there just there 😂. Also the video really contains a lot of contradictions cause theres positive her then negative there but ultimately for me the cons just way outweighs the pro leading to my understanding that devil jin is weak and needs buff. We practice devil jin for better execution alot of hrs compared to others even lose alot only to have little reward if we do find success just put him way below
Nerf hellsweep, nerf heaven's gate, nerf heat smash, nerf demon paw. Bamco should have not included DVJ in the first place if he won't even last for half a year.
The only buff devil jin need is hell sweep damage buff, heat smash range, crow 22 shouldn't be Launcheable only punishable
And b 1+3 should absorb a little more
And a homing mid
Df1 should have counter hit properties
Lol man said hellsweep damage buff
I don't like this version of Devil Jin, not because I can't win with him, but because he has to work TOO hard to gain SO little advantage that can be easily stolen back.
I talked to my gf about this, and for me personally I wouldn't mind his changes but they'd have to give him the following moves back:
1) D+F 1,2
2) WS 1,2 AND 1,4
I’m at a point where I don’t care what they do to devil jin, I enjoy playing him too much to drop the character and I’ll stick with him no matter what.
I can agree with some of this. It has bothered me that people want devil Jin to get broken stuff back. Like why would you want uf4 flip oki? It was so braindead there is literally no expression of character with that. Same with his old heat smash and the original MCW1. If they do buff DJ he needs very small changes. I would like to see 1+2 be cancelable again, a slightly buffed df12, and CD1+2 and improve the frames on a lot of moves. Just small improvements will go a long way. But wishing for brain dead buffs is just plain silly.
Could i dm or email for wavedash tip?
Actually Biker Devil Jin which is Default 3 is much powerful his moveset than his Modern costumes IMO same with Jin's Tekken 7 costume (Default 4)
the whole concept and narrative on the character being less 'fun' if it gets 'uf4' for example getting buffed is not convicing being weak is what strips out the fun out of a character
I don’t really want abnormal buffs to DVJ, just really buffs to his small tekken. If his neutral is going to be ass and subpar, at least make it worth while with my poking when I’m up close:
1)1,1,2-> there’s two ways you can go about this, you either keep his trash range but give him his old oki back or buff his range but no oki.
2)Df1,2-> I’m sorry, I know you may disagree but give him his old df1,2 back, his current one is decent but nowhere near as good as his old one.
3)df2-> his current df2 is fun and gimmicky but it’s not really good for poking or small tekken. Keep the current df2 animation locked behind his WR1,2 and give him back his generic df2 again. Sure DVJ has an easy 15f launcher in can-can but most DVJ’s don’t use it or use it very seldomly in poking because it’s a death sentence on block, so give him his old df2 back so he doesn’t take as much of a risk and it’ll help out his small tekken.
4)3,1-> this string is only useful in combos and nothing else. It was obviously intended to be used in strings as well since it has a forward, forward cancelable input and 3,1,4 is a CH launcher, but then why the fuck is 3,1 mid, high? The higher you go up the rank ladder, the more unusable the string becomes because they’ll just duck the 1 on reaction and WR2 punish into full combo. It makes more sense to have 3,1 be mid, mid so then you get into a guessing game of whether the DVJ will commit to the full 3,1,4 string or cancel it into nothing, etc.
There’s two other buffs I have it in mind but it doesn’t have to do with his small tekken so I’ll keep it to myself
His d4 being worse then previous iterations is my main gripe. I just want one more low poke to cycle through, everything else can remain untouched.
I disliked him when he at the top; now that hes much more "fair", i also feel the same with having much more fun then just coniditoning a hellsweep and winning/losing in 3-5 interactions.
What are you studying?
Nerf my main, I turn off your game is my moto
i will also never drop dvj im surprised we are similar, although im not like godlike with tekken but its the same case with dvj, ill play him regardless whatever harada throws at him
One thing i do to make him super oppressive is spam his heat moves, really useful on open field neutral, just free plus frame and chip damage just throwing out cd1+2, 1+2 and uf3+4,1+2 although uf3+4 is side steppable, cd1+2 isnt and it caughts people off guard and using b,f+2,1,4,1+2 when opponent is on the wall is also pretty good, then one pixel of my heat i go for heat smash then it makes dvj look like really oppressive, and thats the way i am playing him rn
but now i learnt the true use of db+1+2 maybe ill start using that more
For me I don’t care what character it is just put the damn effort in no matter what unless you know truly know the devs messed up that character so bad that the character can’t be played
Downplayer gods in the comments