A tractor company is likely to go out of business.
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2023
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It's important to note that, while the number of brand names has increased, the number of actual manufacturers hasn't. For example, LS makes theirs plus McCormick, IH Case, Montana, Lenar, and some New Holland. So, LS still has significant market share under other brand names. Same for some other manufacturers.
LS is probably the largest manufacturer in the world. They have been making tractors far longer than Kabota. The only numbers talked about here were tractors slod in the US
And TYM manufactures Branson tractors.
Yeah this whole video is pretty disingenuous. He tried real hard to distance LS from New holland, but the reality is that the tractor parts are the same in that series. I buy my LS parts from a New Holland dealer.
I think JD and Kubota are scared with the inflationary costs coming. People will not pay inflated prices for green paint and less features. My little blue tractor was almost 20% less than a similar JD. With a no emissions engine, it is really hard to make the math work.
@@cornpopwasagoodguy9870tym also build’s Mahindra, and rural king and some of the yanmar tractors
With limited parts availability, don't worry about the math working. I twill be hard to make the tractor work.
Excellent Video. Seems like a simple message. Buy from an established financially sound manufacturer, even if purchasing a used unit. Thanks for going into this in great detail.
7 - 8 units a year is mind blowing. I work for a Massey and Mahindra dealer and I think last year was our highest year at around 110 units combined with roughly a 50/50 split. That’s with a Kubota and new holland dealer all within about 10 miles. I can tell you Mahindra does not have their heart in the game. I struggle to get parts from them for stuff still within warranty, it’s embarrassing. I would jump for joy if they went out.
The new parts are just as bad as the junk you’re taking off. Have you had any front wheels fall off?
Hard to imagine Mahindra is the #1 tractor in the world. I looked at one once...once. Noisy, very noisy. I wound up getting another Kubota, an L4060HSTC-LE to go along with my 2002 B2410.
There was a Mahindra dealership near me that used to pretty much clean out their lot every year through sales. Then about three years ago, spring arrived and I didn't see any Mahindra's on their lot. I asked the dealer what happened and they told me that Mahindra quality turned out to be crap and their support even worse and they had too many angry customers. So, based on this one dealership's anecdote, I suspect your comment that Mahindra doesn't have their heart in the game is spot on. And that lesson is going to apply to any of the manufacturers or rebrand companies out there. If they are breaking into the market with lower prices, they better not also be selling lower quality as it is a recipe for unsustainability in a competitive market.
This is why I didn't buy Mahindra when I bought my new unit last year. I looked at all of the brands in the area, wanting a Kubota. The only dealer close to me would not give me the time of day. The NH dealers didn't have any inventory in what I was looking for. Same with Massey Ferguson. Mahindra had tons of inventory at great prices, but the warranty issues I've seen scared me away. The local JD dealer had plenty of inventory, was willing to negotiate on price, and biggest thing, he has plenty of locations within 30 minutes I can get parts and support from.
We almost bought a Mahindra tractor. We were going to buy it till the dealer could not supply it. This was in 2020 as the COVID hysteria was hitting its peak. The dealer was very close to our farm which was a big reason to buy a Mahindra.
We ended up buying a Kubota tractor. The Kubota cost around $10k more than the Mahindra we planned to buy. However the Kubota is rated at having 15 more horse power, can lift more and has better fittings. The Kubota has two sets of hydraulic remotes, the Mahindra had none. The Kubota has skid steer quick attach, the Mahindra had its own system.
In 2022 the Mahindra dealer stopped selling Mahindra and is now selling another brand. So overall I’m very glad we bought a Kubota. We will have it paid off in May 2024 which will be great.
Most folks in my neck of the woods buy the brand with the most reliable service centre closest to where they live. I bought Kubota for that reason - Had John Deere been closer or been viewed to be more reliable I would probably be driving a green machine. Covid taught us all about supply chains. You may have to wait on Orange and Green parts too but you know they will eventually show up and that is important. Between Orange and Green you can probably find a machine that does what most people need.
Our nearest dealer is LS/TYM at less than 10 miles, but I didn’t like the vibe of the dealership. Maybe we didn’t seem like serious buyers but both they and JD (40 miles) seemed more concerned with selling larger ag tractors. We bought our Kabota BX23S in Tucson (55-60 miles) and they’ve already made 3 free deliveries in 6 months.
At need I could drive my tractor to the local John Deere dealer six miles down the road. That was a big part of my decision. What really swayed me was they had just got in the model I wanted and equipped as I wanted in trade with only 59 hours on it. Had a Kubota or New Holland dealer been down the road I’d likely have gone there. Since then I have bought seven attachments . . . none JD brand. That color green paint seems to be more expensive.
I was the I/T Director for a Caterpillar Dealer for 36 years. Along with market share, price and parts availability I would add a key factor for anyone purchasing any piece of equipment such as a tractor would be the dealer network to stand behind the product and provide parts and service support for the product. Some times cheaper is a good option but most times it comes back to you on the backend like you mentioned. I enjoy your videos and hearing how you run and manage your dealership. Good luck to you!
I'd probably stick with any of the four major brands and feel safe; Kubota, John Deere, Case/New Holland and Massey.
I have a 2003 Case DX and CNH is discontinuing parts. No brand is safe.
Local dealer support was a large part of the reason I went with Kubota. I grew up knowing the guy who owned a JD dealership in my town. He sold it when I was in high school, and the conglomerate that bought it closed it within a year and consolidated their operations. Since that time, that group was bought up by a bigger JD dealer who closed some of the locations the other owned, so the continuity wasn't really there to inspire confidence in me purchasing from them. Meanwhile, the Kubota dealer has been in business for 40 years.
If I really wanted to roll* the dice, I guess I could have bought a tractor from the local Mahindra dealer who also sells Kioti and Solectrac and does all of their warranty work in an oversized carport.
*Edit of grammatical errors
That is why I didn't go with Kubota again.
I do know that Kubota has been expressing an interest internally of consolidating some of their smaller dealers. The reasons being they are getting into bigger & bigger AG level tractors, and there is a realization many of these smaller shops won’t be able to support stuff on that level.
They have a region in mind to test this model out, which I can’t discuss. It’s a multi-year plan to manage / consolidate some franchises as current owners get closer to retirement or wish to sell. It will be VERY interesting to see what Kubota looks like in 20 years.
Similiar experience with JD dealership. Deere is pushing for the big dealers to buy out the smaller dealers. If you walk into our local Deere store you rarely see the same people as the last time you were there. Hard to build a relationship every time you go in.
When a tractor company gets too big the prices go up and the service goes down. They develop a screw you, it's our way of the highway attitude and these right/no right to repair issues arise.
My family had a similar experience with Agco. Just after my grandpa passed away, my dad bought a Challenger because of the savings over Deere. Shortly after he bought the tractor, the dealer he bought it from burnt down to the ground. He bought two Massey's after an Agco dealer opened in the area of our ranch, but that dealer went out of business back in 2020. The Challenger and smaller Massey still run great, but it is still hard to find parts close to our ranch. The bigger Massey has been out of commission for nearly six months, and now we have to haul it to an Agco dealer two hours away. Meanwhile, our local Deere dealer has been opened for nearly 40 years. Deere may be more money than Massey or Kubota, but it is worth it for the better service and parts availability we get from our local dealer.
You make some great points Neil. But in the scope of brand development, it hasn't been that long since Kubota was the disrupter changing the marketplace for compact tractors. The fact is, the top two brands have been losing marketshare. Some disruptors may fail... but one could emerge like Kubota did and become a dominator. It's really up to us... the market place representatives. Love your content. I love my Kubota. But Brock from Rock Hill Farms in his very respectful disagreement is correct on this one.
Don't all disrupters face the same challenge, establishing a support network when market share doesn't justify the investment? That's a huge nut to crack.
Hmm, maybe Brock is right or maybe Neil’s right. You agree with Brock and I agree with Neil. Let’s be honest, neither you or I know who is really right, only time will tell.
Hasn't been that long? Apparently that's relative as Kubota has been grabbing market share for about two decades in the U.S. Everyone wants to jump and say they're "the best", so what does that mean? Don't buy anything else?
Good video for first time buyers to consider. Trade or resale is important for those who may want to upgrade later down the road. Parts are a big deal too.
Great video Neil. In 2006 when I was looking at tractors I went to a dealer and looked at a Montana 40 HP tractor. It was cheaper than the L3830HST Kubota but not drastically cheaper. Even my wife could tell the Montana was inferior to the Kubota. I bought the 3830 in 2006 from my local dealer and have had perfect service from it over the years. It still looks and performs as new. So glad the small savings Montana offered didn’t turn my head.
That is surprising to hear because Mitsubishi makes an outstanding quiet engine. Montana is Solis.
Montana was put together by JB Hunt (yes the trucking company) and two other big names in importing or transportation.
They bought the remains of Long (farmtrak) and sold the inventory under the Montana name.
Very good information.
You were a huge part in my decision to get my L2501 from my local dealer here in Iowa.
BTW, they watch your videos too.
I have been a die hard John Deere customer for nearly my entire life.
The John Deere compact tractor line seems geared to the suburbanite who has moved out of the city onto an acreage and has some light chores and projects to do with their tractor. The tractors are purposely built light to mow in areas where weight is an issue.
Where Deere shines is their dealership network and parts availability. They don’t take a back seat to anyone there. They are the absolute industry leaders in that regard.
Kubota comes in second place there.
My Kubota dealer had years of experience and a wealth of knowledge and was willing to spend a great deal of time with me in my decision making.
For that, I am really grateful.
I got the tractor that fits my needs perfectly.
I am very happy with my purchase of my L2501 Kubota back in Dec. of 2017.
It now has 340 hours on it and it is stuck with me for the rest of my life.
Remember your decisions are not binding upon others, there are many owners of other brands whom are just as thrilled w/ their purchase, the substantial $$ savings notwithstanding. 🍶
JD lost me due to their strong stance against the right to repair.
Hey Neil,
In our area north of Montreal, Kubota is definitely king, but 40HP & under, Kioti is likely 2nd, New Holland, John Deere, TYM or Mahindra a distant follower. LS, Yanmar, Cub Cadet further behind. In the Mower market Kubota & Cub Cadet are quite prevalent.
I've never had much experience with the more oddball brands but I wouldn't even take a coffee mug that says kioti on it from my experience
Um, LS makes New Holland/Case compact utility tractors. They are comfortable enough with the stability of LS to simply rebadge and add a few more options or different features vs the LS badged tractors.
Thanks for a great dose of reality Neil. I would ask people to reevaluate where they make a purchase. Why? How many of these dealers have a service department,let alone a parts department,at some point you will need one or the other or both. I don't know Neil and have never done business with him, but kudos to him for keeping his hand on the pulse of the industry
Love my 2023 Kubota ZD1211 zero turn, LOVE my Kioti ck4010se tractor. I found the equivalent kubota (loader capacity primary focus) I had to step up to a quite a bit more expensive and size of a tractor to fit my needs.
Thank you, Neil, for voicing a reality. When I bought my tractor in 2018 I did give a little consideration as to the strength and distribution of the company that make the tractor that I chose. But I based most of my decision on features, price, and the availability of a long-standing dealer, that is, a dealer who sells tractors and farm implements, and not someone who sells aluminum garages, is U-Haul rental facility, and sells tractors on the side.
But given history, I do have concerns that at some point in my tractor's life its parent company might go away. Not that the value will be decreased that I want to resell it, but being able to support it to keep it operational is my concern. I guess I would be concerned about value if it came to that tractor of mine being unsupported then I need to just get rid of it and buy a different one because of good support of another brand. I guess I'm just going have to cross that bridge when it appears. By the way, I bought an LS and I hope it will be around as a parent company for New Holland, and that relationship continues.
Props for owning one of the tractors on the questionable side of this equation and recognizing the crux of the video. I stress over the people who are not as thoughtful. IMO, you'll be fine. LS building the tractor makes long term support much more likely. Can't say that for everyone.
Bought a new Kubota M4900 4wd with a loader in 2000, still going 23 years later. At the time we shopped around, deere, ford, Massey, caseih, and orange was the best deal. Also have an IH 826, made in 72, still going strong...oh, and a Farmall H from 51 still working... My first choice is still a good team of horses.
I have never considered any short line tractor brands.
Upvote for the team of horses. :-)
I think it’s interesting Neil didn’t mention Kioti as being a solid established brand. Make all their own tractors and been in the US for 40 years.
I do think that any brand that doesn’t make their own tractors and won’t be able to provide parts in 20 years for that tractor is doing a disservice to their customers for even offering rebranded tractors.
The South Koreans are really stepping up their game with manufacturing vehicles in general. 10 years ago I would have never thought about buying a Kia or Hyundai, now they are making some of the best vehicles out there. Part of the reason why I just bought a Kioti.
Their tractors and mowers are excellent. Having such a large domestic steel production really makes for some beefy units.
And some of these "small volume" brands are owned by huge international conglomerates that make and sell more tractors around the world than JD and Kubota sell combined.
I am looking at a m5 for next year, Really would like to give Kioti a chance but couple dealers I have been to just do not give me the confidence I need. I would like to see a channel give a 500 hour review on their two largest units..
And dont forget TYM. That's the company that will keep Kubota and JD on their toes. Competition is a good thing!!!!!
The problem as I see it is the price point JD and kubota aren't bashful of there prices .If someone saved up money and bought a small bit of ground to farm and they don't want to buy someone's headache tractor
"Used" they want to start fresh and can't afford the big two
Anytime you consider something used, you need to be on your toes, regardless of brand. Look at the particular model's production history, was it long-lived or did the model get replaced in just a few years by something else? Or look at that model's reliability compared to an even older or a newer version. Then it boils down to inspecting the particular tractor you're looking at; does the seller have maintenance records for it? Does it look abused for the number of hours it shows on the clock? When you test drive it, how does it run and are the hours showing consistent with its chronologic age? If you do your homework, you can pick up a used tractor that is just as good as a brand new one and for a lot less money. Some older models are actually better than their replacements in terms of quality and workmanship and functionality for the dollar spent.
Good video!
One thing I've noticed in my local area is that some brands are being sold without service, parts and maintenance support. Bobcat, Bad Boy and a couple of others.
What are you going to do when you need parts, service, or maintenance? That is a HUGE question you should ask yourself before you buy. The dealer is at least half of my decision when I buy a tractor.
Thanks for the insight. I have been a regular online Messick's parts customer for maybe 15 years for my Kubota, Ford, Ferris, Woods etc. equipment. I have posted many times on the tractor forum that you don't need a nearby dealer for your Kubota tractor because it is simply so rarely needed. Most likely the dealer will need to order the part in anyway. I have been told that I bleed blue, but since downsizing I have sold off my 6 cylinder tractors. The early Shibaura Fords seem to have much less support than the pedigreed Fords of the time. I hope the newer ones see the support continue.
Good valid information Neil! Especially given how inflation is starting to squeeze people’s ability to purchase the smaller non-income producing tractors.
History is repeating it's self. There have been MANY tractor brands that have either gone under or bought up by other brands.
😂😂😂😂 you did a great job at parroting
@@daveklein2826 Neil's parts dept employee 👌
And then intentionally sabotaged so the parent company can gain an edge on the market
I agree with you assessment of the midsize tractor segment. You can see all of the 25-45 horsepower open cab tractors piling up on dealer lots. I think cab tractors are still a hot segment post-Covid. It’s funny, it doesn’t matter whether the conversation is tractor brands, pickup truck brands, snowmobile brands, or motorcycle brands, you always are going to see guys sticking up for the brand they have. I don’t blame people for being that way, who wants to own a piece of equipment you wish you didn’t own?!
Guys on the BX pages get their panties in a wad when I say if I had to buy another SubCompact I would go with something else like a 1025R 😂.
I feel like tires are the worst for asking opinions, it’s ALWAYS what guys are running on their trucks that are the best 🙄
As far as the cabbed/climate control equipped rigs, it doesn't help that it just seems to be getting more just straight up hot doing tractor type work during the summer now (and the winters just get arctic here in the North East at least).
I have several cub cadet tractors made by Mitsubishi. While some parts are not available, I have been able to cross the numbers to nearly identical Mitsubishi made Mahindra tractors. My Cub Cadet 7532 seems decently put together for substantially less cost than a Kubota or Deere of the same vintage.
curious. Have you found parts available though Mahindra that were not available though Cub Cadet? I would guess the companies should be sophisticated enough to be passing the same parts availability information around. On the cub cadet side, you might have 30% of the parts available. messicks.com/cc/92483
@MessicksEquip One specific instance I can remember was I needed a combination switch for my 7532. The sun and weather destroyed it. I couldn't find it on the cub side but I was able to locate the same switch for a mahindra 1815. Same part number. The local Mahindra dealer had one in stock.
10 years ago I jumped into the compact tractor market with a 36 HP 4 cylinder 2000 Cab Cadet 7360SS made by Mitsubishi, not a single issue with it since, built like a tank biggest problem is finding a hydraulic filter for less than $220. Now I want to upgrade to something 50-60 HP and boy is it confusing and expensive. My 7360SS has 900 hrs on it, a heated cab, back hoe, back blade, 6' snow thrower, and forks, obviously want to sell it but have no idea what to ask for it so I can move ahead with one of those orange, green or blue machines.
I bought my Massey subcompact based on the recommendation of a friend who is a long time Massey mechanic. My local dealer sells Kubota and Massey. I am pretty confident in Massey's commitment to support their products in the long term. I agree that some of the others may fall by the wayside. I particularly think of Bobcat. Subcompact tractors are not really their core business.
Bobcat compact tractors are simply rebranded Kioti models. Not too hard for them to offer those as well. Kubota is doing compact tractors and excavators and skidsteers so its a similar lineup.
My local Massey dealer sells them right alongside Cat D11's and 240 ton mining trucks.
@WranglermanLevi theu are kubota. They have a deal for tractors and kubita gets mowers.😊
@@bjgarbacz1bobcat tractors are kioti tractors
Parts availability is what sold me on buying a commercial JD zero turn. They tend to hold onto parts forever and freely give out nice parts diagrams. I know I won’t put many hours on it so I need to be able to service and repair it in 10+ years or longer.
Companies like Mahindra, Kioti, & TYM will probably be safe barring any significant downturn in the US economy. Keep in mind that all 3 have extensive global operations and manufacture some other well known brand names. Beyond those 3 plus Kubota and Deere, I’d be afraid to buy anything else.
I mean shit, summit tractors seem really good,granted there are a couple things I don't like about em but Im thinking of buying one
@@southernwulf3335they seem like a good deal, that might put them out of business
LS is also a segment off a fairly large global company.
Once again you hit this subject clear out the park home run! Great job my friend!
Wow, that was a great presentation! I purchased a Yanmar because of size, features and quality as well as dealer proximity. I previously had a Kubota I purchased new in 1994. Parts are scarce for that Kubota but accessories (I wanted a mower deck) are simply not available. Had the Kubota dealer r given me that sales pitch (or astute assessment) I may have compromised on some features I liked and paid the extra for a new B series. I do love my new tractor though!
In The UK there have been several brands of compact tractors come and gone over the years Nice video Thanks again
10:52 whew! I feel better now about my Boomer. I have a New Holland Boomer 40 that I got because it was about the only thing available during Covid. Unfortunately my nearest dealer is 2 hrs away. Wish I had a Messick's dealer close to me (over 1800 miles away). I have used your online spare parts breakdown as well as your tech support and even ordered parts. Messick's has been top notch to work with!
Great video. I've noticed a few influencers pushing some of those other brands and pushing them hard. I used to follow some of them on RUclips and had to unsubscribe because it was just irritating and painful to listen to someone preach that the tractor they were using was the "one tractor to rule them all" (It's why I I appreciate your content and TTWT). I can respect the brands for trying to push into the market, but there's definitely a reason I keep coming back to look at Deere and Kubota because of the dealer support and product support long after they have stopped producing the model. I can still order parts for my 36 year old Deere from the mothership. I don't even think some of these companies will be around or in this market in 36 years, let alone have parts and a robust dealer network.
Really liked Neil's analysis, I always like to look at numbers and pick them apart.... I bought a Kubota and some things mentioned were what I considered... didn't like the dealer but there weren't alternatives that worked and we'll make it work. I bought a B2601 and definelty made the right choice for my needs. Still many facets to the tractor business, major issue getting hydraulic fittings that were compatable for my tractor and the grapple I bought.... a 3 month journey of aggravation before I got it working, hydraulic fittings are a nightmare! Anyways getting to where I am making it working but took two years to do it!
Consider going to a vendor that does nothing but hydraulic fittings and hoses. Colliflower Inc in the Md Va Pa area is well represented. The have been a reliable knowledgeable source.
TYM is huge overseas. So I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon. I do, however see Bobcat leaving the market. Historically, Bobcat has already done so when they discontinued making tractors a few years ago and only recently brought them back. While Bobcat will have the support based on them being a reliable brand, I see them going back to the construction market which is what they are best at. You talk about parts availability though but you failed to mention that both Kubota and Yanmar engines are in a lot of different brands. Even Bobcat used to use Kubota engines.
I got a used 2014 TYM last year and this comment is nice to hear. Hoping they will follow the Hyundai/Kia Korean trajectory
@mikel9567, pretty sure Bobcats are rebranded Kioti’s.
Kubota has engines in everything, boom lifts, scissor lifts, generators , tractors and more. They are a huge market, they don't need the tractor line to succeed lol.Bobcar has its own thing going on with different implements and stuff besides skidsteers and excavators.
If bobcat were sharp, they would market small tractors to landscape contractors, and other contractors who do remodeling, etc. My brother in law did a lot of custom concrete patios, made of dyed, and tamped concrete. He had a skidsteer breakdown and borrowed my brothers small Kubota, because it was the only thing he could get quick. He bought three new ones in the next year, because the small tractor with turf tires did a lot less damage to customers yards, than the skidsteers.
Great video, Neil. You're certainly right about awareness of this perspective. It absolutely made me re-think some things. Thank you for starting the conversation.
Another great video, with some very good advice. I only have Kubota and JD, mostly Kubota. Support is everything and thank you for your research
It was not long ago when tractors under 50 HP were normal utility tractors and all the various colors were commonly available. At that time, farmers and ranchers bought the color that had the parts and services available to maintain equipment that wears out and breaks. Now buyers have to pay premium prices for equipment and don’t know where the weakest link is, in the manufacturer or the dealer. Either could go out of business or be bought out by someone else who closes the local supporting dealer. I’m small enough that I can buy old equipment, rebuild it if needed, and maintain it until it’s scrap metal. Buy it, fix it, rinse and repeat.
I wouldn't be too worried about branding like Kioti/Bobcat or Mahindra even if they do have a smaller market share, if only because they tend to have a bit larger global footprint. To me, the crux of the issue comes down to the fact that these small compact tractors are really a luxury item for most, very few are bought that will see substantial hours on them and their sales are very much based on liberal credit policies. Kubota's 0%/5 years has sold them a tremendous amount of units, but that cant sustain forever. Eventually this market is saturated and will have to contract just from economic reality.
We got our Kubota a few years ago for 0%/8 years!
Not to mention 0% is such a scam and it’s mind blowing that people think they are getting a deal. There’s a reason Kubota is higher priced even at 0% cause they add there finance fee to the cost of the tractor. Your not getting a good deal!
I was going to look at an LS tractor after i stopped by and checked out a Massey. I never even made it to the LS dealership. I knew MF has been around for all my years. The future availability of parts (or possible lack of) was definitely a deciding factor
@baker. The Massey compact is built by a successful Japanese firm that has a loyal following in their domestic market. They also market their domestic lines in europe. Parts availability for the Massey compacts should continue unimpeded into the future. 👌
I have a mf 2860m and I'm look at a 4100 for my farm
The Bad Boy tractors were just re-branded Branson tractors, so they’re probably just re-branded TYM now.
It's my understanding that Bad Boy is made by Kukje Machinery Co. and then assembled in the USA.
The brand isn't the only consideration here. I had a Massey that had local dealer support, but the particular model was rare. I don't remember the model, but a 25hp that only sold around 250 units in the US. A simple thermostat had to be imported from Japan and cost $65. Other parts were similar. When I needed bigger tractor, I sold it off and bought a Kubota. I paid a premium upfront, but I am confident I will be able to get parts for the rest of my life. Hopefully the tractor will be around that long too.
An iseki?
Funny how certain areas go with certain colour tractors. I had a Massey 1559. Great tractor. The few times I needed parts - all due to operator abuse and not the tractor quality - my local dealer had or got the parts quickly and at a fair price. Our local Kubota dealer is just arrogant and their prices are ridiculous. I downsized to a Kioti 3510 over a comparable Kubota when I sold the 1559. Kioti doesn't have all the bells and whistles but it has been a tough good tractor...and the dealer is great.
I found this video from GWT and Rockhill Farm posting (conflicting) replies, so I was defensive before I started, but agree with the points you made. That being said, I feel that competition is good and look forward to seeing other tractor manufacturers create different color machines that perform as well as the green/orange models we've become accustomed to.
With tractors being completely built from vendor built parts, parts availability is slim to nill when the parts bin is empty and the vendor isn’t tooled up for production. We have had two 3500 dollar spool valves( for a 7140 Magnum) on order from CASE, with no luck.
This is very good information. I'm currently looking into the 3901 hst for myself. Backhoe, grapple, tiller. Nice guys to work with as well. 👍👍🇺🇸
I see some of these no-name (literally) older compact tractors at auctions, they go for scrap value. No parts available and hardly anything that even appears online when you Google the model. Just one of the reasons I love Kubota, superb parts availability, even for really old models.
When buying equipment like this, my #1 concern is, and has always been, parts availability. I will normally stay with a big company that's been around, just to ensure, that in 10 years from now, I'll be able to find replacement parts, when I finally need them. It's been the story of my life, to buy something, have it last for a decade or so, then, not be able to find replacement parts. That includes everything from Agricultural equipment, all the way down to simple household appliances.
I have a Mahindra 2638 Cab (made by TYM in South Korea). Parts availability is there, but not always immediately available. Sometimes you have to wait a couple weeks for them, but you can get them. Dealer support is "adequate" at best. Nowhere near like JD/Kubota where many of the parts are next day availability.
100% correct information. I worked for a Deere dealer for 5.5 years, and “off brand” tractors were always hard to trade for and then resale because people weren’t sure how or where to get parts for. If you’re in the market for a tractor, new or used, you’re better off paying a little more for one of the big brands, Deere, Kubota, NH, Case, etc… because those brands have been around for years and have a solid dealer network and support system. Anytime I’m looking a a piece of equipment, parts availability is huge for me.
I think that was true 20 years ago but the parts availability and accessibility with the internet has improved dramatically over that time.
If it was a little more maybe. When it is a lot, I can't go with it. I tried a deere lawn tractor. In the shop after 8 hours. Factory put wrong air filter on. I still paid full repair bill. Now, the air filters only last at most 20 hrs. Throw in poor quality plastic body and parts that don't interchange with anything else.
I own a Kubota MX5100 and love it. Not only for the tractor but for the 2 dealerships that I deal with when needed. I have also owned a Massey Ferguson 231 and glad that I don’t have it anymore due to the lack of local dealerships.
i have a kubota 5200 and a massey 231! i like both tractors. the massey parts are in large part internet order but easily available.
Local dealer support and manufacturers reputation is why I bought a Kubota MX5400. I may have paid a little more for the Kubota but in my opinion it’s worth it.
The key is building their own tractors. I’d avoid a rebranded machine. I have a Shibaura built Ford 1700 from 1981. It’s a great machine, but while the local New Holland dealer is eager to help keep me running, parts are definitely not always available.
New Holland dealers really know how to take care of their customers IMO. My old 5000 ford has the most obscure, NOS parts in my car no later than a week after I call them.
Great Job Neil and team. Excellent explanation of the compact market. Maybe a follow up video about who builds which models for which brands would be fun to watch. Kioti & Bobcat, TYM and RK, etc. Etc.
You will laugh at this video when you find out who really builds all these tractors. Look at LS, they have been around longer than Kubota and have sold probably 10x more tractors. LS has huge global sales and builds compacts for many different American brands. Thats why they out perform and cost less
As a first time tractor owner own a John Deere 2120 I am amazed how if i need a part my dealer has it in stock or there in a day or 2. I dont think you could say that about many automotive dealer parts for a 50+ vehicle.
I am not talking major engine parts but i think i can get those too from what i see online.
P.S. I am glad I purchased such an old tractor, I have done some stupid things and damaged parts that would have really bothered me if I had bought a new tractor, different topic I know.
Damaged cab roof , tire chains hooked on steps bent and ripped one off, busted glass on doors, dropped log on hood, I am sure others too.
When I bought my 38 H.P. back in 2013, Kubota was my first choice, and J.D. was my second. I knew that both had been around a long time in the compact tractor business. What sold me on the Kubota was that it had a Kubota motor, and the J.D. had a Yanmar. Believe me, Yanmar is a good motor, but if I'm buying a J.D. tractor, for that much more money, it should have a J.D. motor.
I was thinking Yammer builds the small tractor line for John Deere.
Gotta feel for anyone who had worked in an agco parts or service department. They've rolled a lot of brands together under one name.
Agco supports there products very well. We don’t have many issues. Mahindra on the other hand is a nightmare.
I can still walk into the local Agco dealer(Oliver, 50 years ago) and get 95% parts ive asked for on a 1961 Minneapolis-Moline. Agco is doing something right.
@bigmoline100 I'm not saying they aren't doing a good job supporting what they have. It's just a lot to cover. I also understand why they're trying to consolidate what they have.
@@tangydiesel1886 I never took your comment as negative, I was just sharing my experience. Born, raised and still farming with and collecting Deere, Im always happy about Agco still supporting my other flavor toy.
@messicks .holy crap, that new holland tc 29 your standing behind was my exact machine (because i made the quick attach for the loader) that i traded in on a new mx6 which i purchased through messicks!!! never thought i would even see it again
Great video, Neil!
I also must commend you on making the intro quieter than the rest of the video. It's much appreciated. :)
First off... I have no issue with your business or what you sell. And, even though I agree with some of the historical sales numbers you shared, I believe this video is certainly biased and misleading. There are NO (fully) built american tractor company's. (you referenced MF and another.) They are a mixed bag of parts. I guess you could say they are owned by a big mfg with many component part suppliers. The small brands (that you did not want to mention) happen to be gaining ground every year and chipping away at the market share of JD and Kabota. I guess if you want/like/own either a JD, Kabota, or NH...this video made you feel good.
But, If you like/own/or sell any of the other brands (mainly the Korean Brands)...you better be worried.
I certainly believe these "other brands" will continue to gain market share and are perhaps... starting to worry the brands and dealers with the inflated price tag.
Haha totally seeming like a response to Good Works Tractors latest videos too. Pushing a small brand that was new and jumping to a new small name brand suddenly.
Summit asked him to try that tractor for a year. Just using an established RUclipsr to do a long term review.
Excellent discussion. This sort of information isn't readily available to us.
There is no guarantee that Deere or Kubota will exist in 20 years.
Lots of things built today are made to be thrown away instead of repaired.
Good luck if you want to repair a newer Deere yourself.
Not to mention they are both pricing themselves out of the subcompact market category.
Great video! There have been some Kubota models over the years (L series comes to mind) where AEM data allows Kubota to claim that they are the #1 selling tractor in that segment in America. In order to make that mathematical conclusion from AEM data, it means Kubota is somewhere above 50% in that segment. We know Deere has recently moved about half Kubota's volume, so 75% for Kubota and Deere in compacts is a very realistic number that lines up with your estimates. It means everyone else is fighting for the remaining 25% of the pie, and that has got to leave sliver slices for some of the players. I don't know how they can survive unless they are backed by a large international company playing a long game to crack into the US market. By the way, many people doubt Kubota is over 50% market share but if you know how to read the tea leaves, it is obvious. Not easy to explain though.
Your correct, that is partly the basis for my 75-80% residing with Deere and Kubota.
Under 100 horsepower it's no question that it's kubota or nothing pretty much
I bought a Kubota subcompact for my wife (horses, etc.) and bought it for this very reason. However, my oldest utility tractor is European and they just don't go out of business (likely because of government support) so even with just a handful of annual U.S. sales my dealer can always get the parts I need decades after he sold it to me.
I own a TC33D. I can’t say enough about it. I pull a Frontier FM1012 to maintain my 6 acre estate. They work great together.
The old TC models of New Holland were nice, bullet proof, rock solid. I had a TC29D and regret ever selling it.
There was an RV dealer down the road from me who carried an off brand tractor (I forget which kind) for about 2-3 years and then quit carrying them.
I always suggest to ignore the color of tractor and buy based on your dealer support.
Great video and I hope a lot of potential buyers are watching before they buy.
Keep up the great work!
In Canal Winchester Ohio, there was an RV dealer who used to sell Mahindra. My buddy and I checked them out, but the dealership itself seemed hanky.
I seriously thought about buying a Rural King tractor instead of my Kubota, the loader valve os much smoother and easier to operate on the RK. However, I ended up spending $3k more for the LX2610 just for dealer support and future parts availability.
Dealer support and future parts availability are absolutely the most important things to consider. I don't buy uncommon brands for that reason alone.
However another thing to consider is always resale value.
If you ever decide to trade in or sell in the future you will gain that $3K (probably more) back simply due to resale value. The off brands lose more value right from the time they are drove off the dealer lot and the older they get the more valueless they become. I see older Kubota and John Deere products still selling for good money.
I think you made the right choice and will be happy for years to come.
Smart move.
I have 2 tym tractors, for Landscapingcompany. My dealer sells one machine a week. Tym is not a companygoing anywhere.
Green and orange tractor are like Ford and gm. f150 average price is $67,000 same as chevy. Ppl can't pay it. A 4 series John deer can go little over 60,000. That's crazy. I bought 2 John deers new and they were no better then the tym I have now. I'd never own a Kubota with the one petal see up. Tried it didn't appreciate it.
Great video Neal, glad to hear you saying what we've been thinking for years!
Good informative video. I see a lot of parallels with the side by side market.
A Messicks dealership in Wisconsin would be wonderful!
If you find rebranded tractors that are identical to another and they are both selling well and all parts are interchangeable, I don't see a problem. Ex: Rural King's RK25 is the same as the TYM T25. excellent machines and you are going to have a parts availability as TYM dealership expands. When RK is no longer a dealership then I can still go to TYM. There are some I wouldn't touch.
What about a 40 year old John deere? not a problem if they made a lot. I recently picked up a JD 2040 1979 and parts are still being made. Why? Because they made 100's of thousands of these. A popular machine - no matter the brand - will have parts either in the secondary market or branded.
In some ways you want a tractor company that makes their own, or that are so small they do almost no changes so you get parts compatibility with the source manufacturer. The problem is the middle where you get a TYM, but they change it enough to make it not compatible, for whatever reason that they think is important (usually price).
I am in Western Illinois and it is Deere country. They resale well. Kubota does a great job as well.
I feel like Yanmar is somewhere in between on this. Their history with John deere and suppliers of engines for numerous other manufacturers, I feel, separates them from the others. I do also own a Yanmar.
I agree, Yanmar is the most under rated tractor on the market today.
Yea, Yanmar builds all their own equipment including the engines plus half of everyone else’s stuff (JD especially)
I agree also. I'm currently beating on my second Yanmar and only bought latest based on experience with the first. Truly underrated and Neil honestly should have not grouped them into the bottom considering how large Yanmar actually is. Understand US Market for Yanmar is not big but everyone knows they build there own machines and there fantastic
The subcontracting and badge-engineering in the
Yep, that has always been the main factor in buying any expensive piece of equipment. How are parts availability and service… usually right at the top of the list.
If it is non existent, or possibly so low that it might not be available years later i don’t bother.
That's why I still drive my farm.All super c 1953 I can still get parts for l o l and my t o 35 massey ferguson, And
they are easy to work on and last forever
I haven't had much difficulty finding parts for a 1952 Allis Chalmers CA.
Parts availability for less popular brands was something that i learned by buying a car with limited US sales. Parts are harder to find and expensive
Great info, and well presented. Although...I don't think the small tractor market actually peaked in 2001 (1:32).
Yes. 2021. My error.
Your subject is one main reason we switched from Allis Chalmers equipment to all John Deere back in the 70s on the farm. Today, we are JD still with no plans to switch to a different manufacturer.
Several of those smaller brands are just rebranded imports that have sold under different labels since the 80s.
I love my !965 Massey Ferguson 180 , 55hp with Perkins diesel .It came with front loader with bucket , hayforks , 5500 runs great
Great video Neil. 🙂 I'm a Ford New Holland person and it's a shame they let the Japanese Shibora relationship go in the toilet. We have two New Holland TC45D's. One with the Super Suite cab! Solid machines! Back then New Holland had John Deere and Kubota beat. They caught up though and passed them. Glad they still back their tractors! The new LS made ones are just cheaper. Korean tractors are ok but not my cup of tea. The Ford 10 and 20 series compacts rocked and led the segment in that era too! John Deere and Kubota didn't come close 30+ years ago!
I've been waiting to have a TC45 around to film with. They are great.
I have a Farm Trac 555D . 2004 . Probably not a good thing because they aren’t around anymore either. Thanks for your input on this topic
For you guys with tractors or most any machine from the no parts available section.
I have a pretty good network for things.
I have pattern makers and a foundry man that can duplicate many castings in iron, brass, aluminum, and bronze. No engines or axle housings. Sorry.
Gears and shafts are a bit more difficult but can be made. I personally don't make gears. It's not my cup of tea. Shafts, pins, hex couplings ok.
For bearings I can get nearly every size. And I currently stock some hard to find sizes. And some obsolete. Also I have many seals. Labyrinth seals are difficult to find due to proprietary sizes but sometimes perseverance pays off. If not re-machining to fit standard sizes is an option.
I can also get some obsolete belts.
Btw, anything that is a one-off is more expensive due to set-up costs.
I don't do anything with large parts no frames, engines, loader arms, hoes, ROPS, etc..
And plastics are nearly impossible to get. They're proprietary and unit specific. It's rare when I do get them.
If you don't try...
I drive by a Kubota dealership in South West Ohio. They sell a lot of tractors. I do not know how many they sell but am sure it is over 10 a month. I remember Rural King selling big red tractors years ago. Now they are making a big deal about selling tractors like it is something new. I almost got one. I could look at them with clear pricing only, a hand full of clearly different models, and financing that made it hard to pass up every time I went in to the store.
You are ALWAYS offering good info for your viewers and its much appreciated.
Also consider it is not just the manufacturer, but also the dealer network. Probably not as big a deal today as it was before online parts availability. I remember years ago when a local Kioti dealership opened up. Guy sold tractors for a few years and then went out of business. Problem was, the nearest dealer after that was several hours drive away. Lesson learned, thankfully not the hard way...
Neil, the biggest problem i have now is i need a tractor with cab. I currently have a JD 4044M with 700 hours and really need a 50 to 80hp tractor with cab. The concern i have as i have been looking at Kubota is the service side. My neighbor bought a Kubota 7060 with cab and all the attachments. His tractor stays here because I can keep it out of the weather. The tractor is a 2019 year model with 500 hours. It has the Kubota warranty, insurance etc basically everything the dealer had to offer was purchased initially. Anyway, the rear hydro was slow at lifting and made loud sounds. The only way it would lift is when you throttled up. I called my local Kubota dealer service and reported this issue. He said it sounds bad and to shut it down to prevent damage. They came to pick it up and a week later called to say they found the problem. It was with a valve under the cab but in order to fix it they have to remove the cab and its not covered under warranty or insurance since it wasnt damaged. The charge for this was $700 sooo you could imagine where this call went. Even when the tractor is sent in for routine service / maintenance they always have extra charges to add resulting in $300 to $600 services. Based on this experience i am no longer considering Kubota and looking at JD again or even Yanmar
Sounds shady. I would also go elsewhere.
@@MessicksEquip Hard to do here. John Deere is 8 miles away. Kubota is 25 min away from me. Yanmar is over an hour. I do see another Kubota dealer 40 min away. The problem is breakdown service. If it breaks down i have no way of transporting it to the shop. My current JD is picked up for free and delivered for free since i am close to the dealer. Kubota is charging $75. It just sucks due to lack of options here and having a close Kubota dealer that screws people over
@@MessicksEquip Messicks should open a location in McComb Ms or Kentwood, La...cheap land, great tax breaks :) Good service & legit billable charges are hard to find here for Kubota owners
Good points but it's also worth noting that companies like yanmar produce most John Deere tractors under 80 hp. Also smaller companies like tym and New Holland use commercial off the shelf parts that can be found at any supply store. They utilize engines from Mitsubishi that can be serviced with parts easily as well. John Deere and Kubota has alienated itself from its customer base with much higher prices. John Deere has also infamously taken a stance on right to repair that has soured it's relationship with its customer base. Although their actions really don't have much to do with the small tractor market people are wary of their business practices.
FYI, John Deere and Yanmar parted ways years ago, while they still use a Yanmar engine, the tractors no longer have any commonality. Your not wrong on being able to dig into other alternate parts sources, but that's an expedition beyond most tractor owners and even a lot of dealership parts counters.
My grandmother(previously my grandfather before he passed) has a 7000 series cub cadet im gonna try getting that tractor amd keeping it running
I bought a JD 3032E in 2018 and have been very pleased with it. I bought the Deere because it was the only one I could find that was even assembled in the USA.
Excellent overview. Thanks Neil
I hear what you're saying, you could probably even narrow it down to which one(s) won't make it. Some on that list aren't going anywhere unless they decide selling tractor isn't worth it in the US. Mahindra for example is huge outside the US and I believe world wide sells more tractors than just about anyone.
you are so right about the covid thing. We bought our Kubota M6060 and I looked all over TX and bought the ONLY one I could find.
This is a shorty way to undermine the competition with fear that they might go out of business. Some of the competitors have heavier and more capable machines at a lower price point. I believe that John Deere uses yanmar engines. and yanmar has its own line of tractors. The lift capacity of the big two pale in comparison to some of the competitors.
I think you'll see Bad Boy and Bobcat leave the market as it will be easy for them to do so. Yanmar may leave the US market or consolidate to markets they do well in. Solis and Summit both use ITL tractors and Solis has some partnerships with Yanmar, but they may leave the US market if it's not profitable. LS/New Holland, Kioti and TYM will stick around. The rebrands are the ones I'd be wary about.
Bobcat has already left the market once. That makes me hesitant to consider a current Bobcat tractor, even though their prices seem to be pretty dang good.
Bobcat may stay around since they are a piece of a larger whole. They just started branding the Steiner tractor as a Bobcat. Everyone is wondering if Steiner will go away as a brand and just be Bobcat. Messick's sells Steiner so Neil will probably have some comments on it down the road. I doubt they would sell Bobcat since they have New Holland and Kubota.
It might force Messick's to switch to Ventrac. Only time will tell.
Bobcat tractor are rebadged kioti
If I’m not mistaken, Bad Boy rebrands the Branson/TYM tractors.
They are. I think the rebrands have the biggest chance of leaving. The Bobcat tractors are a different story. I actually think we may see Daedong and Doosan merge.
What, no love for Solectrac (which ironically co-developed a tractor with Farmtrac)? Just kidding, I know they're a speck so far even though I really like mine. Good video as usual and I agree there's likely going to be some consolidation in the not-too-distant future. I remember looking at the Montana tractors years ago, but I'm glad I went with a Case at the time.
Farmtrac now owns by Kubota. Smallest Kubota is Farmtrac 😊
Considered a brand new kioti because they are significantly cheaper then kubota here in Canada and have been around for years. But I opted to buy a used 2018 kubota for about half the price of brand new.
We have a local kubota dealership that also does mobile service if you ever have a problem. Of course fluid and filter changes I will be doing myself. But it's still nice to have that peace of mind for local parts availibility and service if needed
Man good works tractors got a nerve hit hard with this. I don’t see anything wrong with Neil’s video, and I didn’t buy a jd or kubota when I bought my compact.
I get that impression. I'm refusing to watch it.
tractor time with Tim made similar points in his video from a year ago. Must have been the social influencer remark that got people riled up.
It needed to be said though. As a new tractor buyer myself a lot of online content made a lot of brands attractive. After doing more research I realized how important long term support is and how to evaluate that.
GWT stressed he wasnt sponsored for his kioti affiliation. But didn’t he make a bunch of content on a previous sponsored brand? Which he has since dropped. Which seems to illustrate the point.