WWSD: Variable Optics Conclusions
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- Опубликовано: 2 фев 2018
- You can find the Vortex throw lever here:
throwlevers.com/
We've come to some decisions and conclusions about the three potential variable optics we'd selected for the WWSD project.
Trijicon 1-4x Accupoint
vs
Leupold 1-6x Mk6
vs
Vortex Viper 1-6x Gen2 PST
Which is the best? Are they all good? All bad?
This video discusses that and much more.
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Almost said 'Forgotten Weapons' in your greeting, Ian? :p
Pete Sheppard noticed that.
Cmon, do us a favor
Karl's unspoken reactions in 1 second:
"Hey, how's it going-Excuse me? Yeah, that's right. Hello again."
😂
Thank you for the thoughtful content. So many videos of this length I expect to skip through from the start because the content creators are lazy and don't want to edit but your videos are just packed with relevant information. And when there is a Q&A, in which someone might not want to listen to all the Qs, you leave a time stamp table of contents. Genius! or common sense, but given the context I stick with the former.
Could you do a WWSD playlist, with all the videos in chronological order?
Kasper Guldmann They used to have one
You can make your own, it’s not that hard.
As a hunter in Arizona this all comes very close to what's optimum in this desert. For sure. Always hunted with AR's all my life and this is all very refined understanding. Excellent.
Been running Trijicon Accupoint for years now and I can tell you now in my opinion they are the best combat optic out there for the money!! I shot a Mark 6 in a carbine class and didn't like it.....Illum disappears if you are not directly behind glass and that to me is a no go for a fighting piece of glass. Ran an NF NX8 for a month and sold it, great optical clarity, FOV was pretty good but once you went past 4X the reticle obscured the target and therefore made anything magnification wise past 4 a hindrance at distance, out to a distance of 300 I never ran anything past 4x which was great but why pay $1800 for just half of the mag range you intend to run?? The best high end glass I have ever used is the Kahles 1-6, amazing FOV, great eyebox, lightweight, controls and zoom lever are smooth as ball bearings, optical quality second to none.....however out of most peoples reach at 2k....but as far as no compromise in my opinion its the best. The best for the money in my experience is the Steiner PX4i, great glass, FOV, reticle is my favorite out of anything, price is around $500.....nothing even comes close in my opinion....it beats out the Trijicon 1-4 in because of the better reticle design, FOV, and price. The next best option which is my current optic is the Trijicon Accupoint 1-6, with the green MOA reticle, no batteries, self adjusting fiber optic dot, 2nd only to Kahles in FOV, great reticle, eyebox is awesome, and priced around 1k. I have beat the living dog shit out of this glass and it is rock solid, allows me to completely focus of shooting.....no adjusting the dot brightness...or worrying about batteries, I know when I shoulder it that green dot will always be there, uncluttered for distance shooting and simple up close! Great review guys completely agree with everything you said!
I think everything you said was really, really gay.
I love this project. I've been following it since the beginning and used it as the inspiration for my most recent build. I didn't go quite to the extent you did to shed weight, but using your ideas, I still managed to get the rifle in all up(including optic) at sub-6lbs unloaded. InRange and Forgotten Weapons are among the channels out there. Please keep the awesome content coming!
Axel2485 did you get the cav15 lower?
Farrel Clement No, I went with a standard aluminum lower.
I may transition to an aluminum lower so my cheek bones permit using a lower sight picture
My accupoint 1-4 is the best optic I’ve ever looked through. So folks know, there are other reticles - I have a simple duplex with a small yellow dot. I zero at 50 and use the top of duplex as one holdover. I don’t try to shoot past 400 yards...
Recently revisited this topic to help outfit a friends WWSD type rifle build. An interesting solution we’ve looked at is the Trijicon AccuPoint 3-9x40 with Mildot reticle, with an offset RDS. The optic is only 13.3oz and gives 9x with basic Mil holds. The combination of Optic & RDS still comes in several ounces less than most 1-6x optics alone.
Well I guess I'll be that guy. I was surprised given Carl's love of the ACSS Reticle that they didn't test the Primary Arms 1-6X24mm.
Optic shopping right now and that's what I've chosen. Looking back through hoping it was one of the ones they reviewed cause I couldn't remember. Womp womp
Really appreciate the shots using the optics, very descriptive.
Information like this is why I support you guys on Patreon! Thank you.
An interesting idea for another video series would be a modernized dragunov. You could build a dmr ar 10 in 6.5 creedmor, with the goals of it being lightweight, accurate and versatile. Then after you build it you can have it face off against Karl's dragunov. That might be a cool series.
I know I'm late to the party, but I'd love to see this
The 6.5 has advantages for the excellent shooter, but much shorter barrel life than 308.
Thanks for costing me money...I bought a TR24 based on your enthusiastic recommendation. I'm waiting on the Larue QD mount I ordered to arrive before taking it out and getting it zeroed, but so far the optical clarity has blown me away.
Ian pronouncing niche wrong while being a Francophile, shocking!
MonkEsquire well if you’re in Arizona it’s pronounced “nitch” just
Saw this 5 years ago and it just comes up after my brother got me a VCOG for my 40th! Great timing!
Planning on getting the PST for my future AR so this is a very welcome video.
TR24s w/ the triangle post have served my modest needs very well within the limitations stated in the video. Astigmatisms have no fear. Aging eyes rejoice. They've been around for a while now and, if you aren't scared of aging tritium, they can be found for very reasonable prices, used, in the usual places. My friend took his to AFG and it survived just fine being bashed around in MRAPs and against gear and rocks, and still serves him in civvy life, just fine. Everything is a compromise and, for me, the TR24 is thus far the ideal one.
Great start to a Saturday. Slept in late, coffee and a new In Range video.
kylerott
And my lower came in.
Zed Hiro You win.
You are a man after my own heart. I myself also slept in late, drank lots of coffee, and applied the last coat of finish to a rifle stock I've been working on while watching this video.
In the three years since this was made, there's a lot of new LPVO's that have came around. It would be interesting to throw Swampfox, Eotech, PA, and others into the mix.
You guys really need a playlist for all of your WWSD videos.
Also, I NEED to see a WWSD DMR build
they should build a bolt action rifle too
WWSD flamethrower next pls.
WWSD Heavy MG!!
WWSD 'Triple A' Gun
Yeah, they said back in August that the WWSD DMR would (probably) be an AR-10 in 6.5 Creedmoor.
Very intresting, a friend of mine tried a fairly high dollar variable, great view but weight was a drag. He also tried a elevated mount that let him use irons as well but was hard centering your eye to scope, gave it all up
Great info guys, thanks for sharing with us!
These guys have the most intelligent discussions and leveling of useful information on the net.
Meh, it’s pedantic and mediocre.
Great review guys
Love this series need to catch up
Cool video guys. Thanks for sharing!
But can you burn ants with them?
The TR24 1-4× is my favorite. I use a 36 yard zero. So I have 5.5" diffrence from point blank range out to 300 yards. Makes it super simple and easy to go out to 300 yards very easily . I can get first round hits on steel silhouette targets out too 400 yards .
I love the no batteries . This is the main reason why I choose the TR24 for my primary setup . My primary is 12.5" MINI RECCE.
I personally favor the 1-4× . I'm either at 1x or 4x . Never in between . I've owned 1-6× over the years but keep coming back to the 1-4×. I rarely shoot past 300 yards . So for me 1-6 isn't practical.
The duel illustration is a win win . Very few LPVO have daylight bright reticle.
When I use to shoot competition 4 or 5 years ago . The TR24 or TR25 were one of the mist popular ones being used . I know Taran Butler uses the TR24 or TR25 .
I'm use to the Triangle. I know all my holds out to 400 yards and can do that very quickly .
The PA ACSS is by far the best reticle fir unknown distances . The M2 ACSS or Aura are the best . The ACSS makes a beginner get first round hits at unknown distances.
The ultimate LPVO would be 1-4 or 1-6× ACSS Accupoint.
Nice video guys
Everyone will be suggesting scopes to test, so I'll add my own, a MARCH 1-8X24 FFP with the illuminated FMC-2 reticule and optional 6 level illumination switch.
I've been running one for about 6 months now and the brightness, sharpness, contrast and lack of chromatic aberration is just stunning. The reticule is also brilliant at drawing your eye to the crosshairs. Only downside is the price and the eye box could be a little bigger.
As far as I know, this is the only small mag variable with parallax adjustment. While it not be important for many users, it is for my precision target use - using a 100 yard fixed parallax at short or very long range will take you to the edge of the X ring unless your head / eye placement is perfect every time.
In our UK Gallery Rifle matches which shoot at ranges between 10 metres to 50 metres in both slow and fast fire, I've never used a better scope.
Another good video guys. Keep up the good work :)
Great video very informative, i went with a primary arms 1-6 for the reticle and price point
Ahhh, and here's the video in the build where my wallet shits itself
I'll give it a look
@@nates9536 Elcan tri-role should’ve been the optic. That optic is one that makes my wallet scared
I just used a 1.25X4 VXR PATROL Leupold with a SPR recital at Thunder Ranch for Urban Rifle and it did well from 7-400 yards. I think you guys would like.
Thanks for the vids.
Great video guys very informative, I was wondering if you could make a playlist for all the WWSD videos for ease of finding them. When I last checked there wasn’t one there. Thanks for the vid.
Zed Hiro I have one. It needs organized when they get done with the project, though
I'm gonna be the guy you talked about in the beginning..lol The kahles/swarovski 1-6s offer wider FOV than the vortex with red dot bright dots and at under 17oz. The downside for those optics is the $2k MSRP of course, but if/when i make it out to AZ you can definitely use/borrow my kahles!
Great video!
Great footage through the scopes! Good conversation. Have you looked through the VCOG? very pretty.
I picked up a Leopold 1.5-4x green firedot a few years ago after trying several other things. Works great to 400yds. I have no problem running it with both eyes open.
Fiber-optic sights and scopes (i wont say it twice) are so neat to me and it seems like they can save a truly remarkable amount of weight. It blows my mind that it isn't a more popular method of illumination just for the cool factor alone.
I found myself staring at that red stripe on the top of that black rifle almost the whole time. Reminds me of Knight Rider or something. :P
Fiber illumination doesnt work in the dark when you want illumination most
Illumination is most necessary at dawn/dusk, when contrast is needed. I believe that Trijicon fiber-optics have enough surface area to be useful even in reduced light conditions. In pitch dark, they have a tritium vial if you do not want to use your WML. With a WML, the etched reticle will contrast noticeably and work very well.
@@jordanlewis3790 other than military application, many states ban night scopes
So who was the vortex throw lever maker? You forgot to add the link I guess.
Vortex makes levers for all of their scopes, AFAIK. I have 3 levers from them on different Viper PSTs and a PST2.
throwlevers.com/
Stoners DMR was just made by Hornady. 6mm Arc sounds awesome. Also my favorite option is the SIG Tango MSR LVPO. 2.5 x two eye is a bit disconcerting but quite doable.
Good discussion. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the magnifier/red dot combo.
I thought you fella's did a very good report, I'm debating buying one myself, thank you.
Awesome video guys however I was wondering what you guys thought about the Primary Arms 1-6x with an ACSS reticle? Was it an optic you guys considered, or was it something that you weren't really interested in?
Aero mounts lured me in that weight to minimal design. Win win for this kinda sight.
One thing about tritium is that it has about a 25 year usefulness. That's way longer than battery, and by the time it gets too dim to be useful, you'll probably have something new.
The 1-8x24 Schmidt & Bender PMII short dot is excellent in terms of form, fit and function.
do a video talking about the issues with army's new handgun. I think people would like to see a video comparing military arms trials of say the 1907 hand gun trials. compared to the process of choosing new military fire arms today.
What about the AccuPower vs the AccuPoint?
The AccuPower has the stadia lines for holdovers.
Are they comparable in eye relief?
In Norway the variable that is most high-end and used is the Swarovski 1-8x24 flexchange circledot. I have one personally, lovely scope.
Does cold affect the rifle lubricant?
Optics are like golf clubs,
Very hard to play the hole course with one club.
Knut Der Große you said “club.” ........ and “hole.”
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Thank you Karl and Ian , I purchased a 2020 upper and need an optic. Hello guys ( KE has a clearance on the 223 upper around 750$ )
Karl, prefering the dot sight, have you tried a variable with an illuminated dot or recticle and a closed cap on the front? It should work like the old Armson EOG or Weaver Quik-Point. With the cap closed magnification shouldn't make any difference for closer ranges, and pop the cap for distance. (It works around the house with my Vortex 1-4x. Something to try at the range the next time out.)
I’ve got a few of those areo Precision mounts and they just work not expensive light weight why not...👍🏼👍🏼
What are your thoughts on a magnified optic and red dot combo, like the Trijicon ACOG/RMR sets?
Primary Arms Platinum 1-8 ACSS in a Midwest Industries Gen 2 QD mount, even the SFP 1-6 ACSS in the same mount is a excellent choice. I have seen allot of Vortex scopes break, IMO the ACSS is the best combat reticle on the market
Will you take a look on the Nightforce NX8? High performance but really light.
I completely agree. I have 3 different Trijicon Accupoints and when I got the 1-4x it literally changed my life. I love it, and I thinks severely under rated because Vortex gets so much more air time.
What magnification+reticle combinations do you have? I'm having a hard time finding much information on using the 1-6 models up close.
ChaseTheStars I have the Accupoint 1-4x with the 12moa red triangle
I think you might find the Trijicon a little more versatile on the carbine if you use a different zero. On my red dot with 3x magnifier I use a 36-300 yard zero and I highly recommend it for anything that does not have any kind of graduated reticle.
If Stoner came down, I would ask him to consider a fixed 6, 7 or 8x32 scope with an illuminated mil dot reticle with a some hold over marks (for medium or long range) , and a micro red dot at 45 degrees (for close or short range). The fixed scope would be cheaper, simpler, lighter and more resilient. I would not need the lower power variation since I could use the red dot for that. The red dot would also allow NV with nods.
On a lot of the.other WWSD videos you let us know about price points. Was this a factor at all?
One important thing you did not mention:
The Leopold is a 1st focal plane scope, that is very important if you want to use the reticle.
The Vortex is 2nd focal plane, that makes the lines kind of useless, unless you know the exact magnification you are at atm and have experiences for that magnification what the lines are at.
The lines are accurate at 6x, why would you be shooting at further than 300 yards (Where the lines are useful) on less than 6x...
This.
Ethan George. Field of view is larger at lower magnification, which can be a factor.
Field of view is larger at lower magnification in what?(SFP is larger) You never specified.
Ethan George. Field of view is larger at lower magnification regardless of which focal plane the reticle is on.
Im curious if you have to have red dot with scope wich mout is better on top of scope or 45 decree tilted on side of the scope?
Kraut posts and triangle's also can be used for range - correct me if I'm wrong but the distance between the vertical post and horizontal element is the approx. width of a man's shoulders at 100 yards - 2 men at 200 yards - 3 to 4 men at 300 yards and a small jeep or horse 400 yards .....?
When is the red. Video coming out? I'm curious what you've chosen
I built a M4/AR-15 for a family member.
I used a Leopold 2x7 with German #1 reticle.
For a close to median range hunting. A good cure.
Sooo when is one of you going to give the other one a ring?? lol Great video keep it up!
soo would you guys say the Accupoint would work well for a good, go to rifle/ general purpose rifle, not just WWSD?
I've decided on Swamp Fox variable scope for my new 6.5 Grendel DMR build. They're a new company but the reviews have been pretty good and they seem to be well made for their price. And I'm still spending $500 on this thing or close to it. At least that's how much if I get the 1X-10X which is what I think I want to get even though I probably don't need anything that powerful.
Would love to see the Spectre DR for a wwsd rifle since it's smaller and faster to switch power.
Also, do the Primary Arms 1-6x ACSS, The whole chevron and horse shoe light up, both eyes open is super easy and it really does just look like the reticle is is floating. Built in range finders for both height and width of a man. And bullet drop and windage marks for 100-1000. Everyone I know who's used my rifle with my ACSS scope has ended up with one of the 1-6 or 1-8. Also super convenient idea that the turret cover holds a spare battery so you always have one.
If you'd be interested in reviewing it I'd be willing to loan you one.
The Elcan Spectre has the same issue as the Elcan machine gun optics; tunnel vision. It has a very unforgiving eyebox.
What about the 1-6 Trijicon TR25? They have reticles with stadia lines.
Rather than the Accupoint... I would have recommended the slightly cheaper, and newer Accupower alternative, esp the one with the segmented circle, as the segmented circle lends itself very well to quick acquisition, and has a bullet drop compensator, allowing for that crosshair to work well at 1 or 4 power.
why not go for something like a hama scope? or a 45 degree Angle Offset reddot? (I don't know anything about guns)
The Accupoint 1-6x24 would definitely make for a better infantryman’s optics. Especially if they put the integrated mount on it from the Marine Corps’ SCO VCOG. In fact I think the Accupoint is a better solution for the Marines but that’s just my two cents. I wasn’t there in testing so maybe they ran into something that the vcog was drastically better
i had the 1-6 leupold firedot and it was not a horseshoe so it was just like the vortex. the etched reticle issues only apply to shapes not the dot only.
Can someone identify the bird call at around 20:10. I miss Arizona. Great video!
What are the mounts you are using on the trijicon
Yall should try a primary arms scope. Its a good budget scope i love my 1-6 on my ak
Do you think it is appropriate for a 16 inch to have a variable scope or is it more appropriate to use a red dot?
How do you witness mark the scope mount so you get repeatability?
I got a cheap vortex red dot i do not shoot further than 100 on a range and for defense or anything it would be very close I have backup irons. This series of videos really makes me want to make a lighter rifle mine is a bit on the chunky side
Freedom line of leupold scopes are a great budget lightweight option 1.5-5 is 9oz, 2-7 is 11.1oz. Aero mount 3.0oz but is not illuminated but a 45 degree red dot can solve that and acts as a back up but im always trying to find better options I have a vortex 3-9 with a firedot (red dot) that's only 12.8oz I believe and happy with that also. $180 to $300ish
I love my Primary Arms FFP Raptor 1-6. The reticle is amazing. I want that reticle in a more premium form.
What yalls thoughts on a lpvo with offset red dot.
great video, really got my attention on NRA high power experience , seems to be a forgotten subject, with all the( tacticool) ninja's on internet
As I recall with the WWSD project sometimes price was considered. IIRC the Leupold is very very very expensive!
Wonder how close did the accupoint get to the holosun 510c's performance as a red dot.
Can the tritium insert in devices like the Trijicon be replaced? From what I understand, the half-life of tritium isn't all that long.
I wish I got the TR24 back when I bought my ACOG TA31H-G 10+ years ago. It just never seems to stop being relevant if its basic virtues serve your needs.
Do you guys still like the TR24 for the rifle or the Vortex?
Have you tried the dot version of the Accupoint?
12:10 I'd be curious to know how well the vortex compares to the sig tango t6 in terms of shooting with both eyes open
I don't think it was on the market for most of the WWSD project, but I wonder if you gentlemen would like the new Accupoint 1-6 as much as you like the 1-4.
Wheres the Platinum Primary Arms lines?
The 1x4 variables I have seen kinda suck at 1x. Glad to see the Trijicon getting over that.
WWSD DMR is going to be sweet
I don't know much about scopes, what is it called when the reticle zooms in with the magnification? I feel like the range marks are inconsistent when they stay the same size when increasing magnification.
That's FFP (first/front focal plane) when it changes with magnification and SFP (second ... ) when it stays the same.
Did you guys ever look into the sig variable optics?
Brownell's Retro 4x scope, I like carry handles, though...