I love Dr. VanDrunen's emphasis upon Christ as the last Adam, to describe Jesus as the second Adam can lead to misunderstanding because the word second can be interpreted to mean that another Adam may come later. The Bible always refers to Christ as the last Adam which removes all possiblities of another Adam coming, if pastors and Bible teachers stick to the language of Scripture they will promote clarity
So, I have a question that I have not found a good answer to for those holding to this form of 2K theology; Adam was given the dominion mandate as the federal head, which he failed at, leading all mankind into a state of sin. Christ then, in His life, death, and resurrection accomplishes (as the final Adam) what Adam failed to do, and as the “new” federal head He brings man out of sin (death) and into life. . . Are we to assume then that if Adam had not failed, his offspring would not have been held to the same mandate given to him? What I mean is, if Adam and Eve did not fall into sin and had children, would they not have been expected to “be fruitful, multiple, and fill the earth, and have dominion over it”? The reason I ask is because this form of 2K theology makes it sound as if believers in Christ are free from this mandate (arguably repeated in Matt 28:18-20) because Christ, the final Adam, had succeeded where Adam failed.
This was interesting and edifying. On an aside, this framework is quite freeing when applied to the role of the church and working at what our hands find to do. I am looking forward to reading the book. Thank you all for this conversation.
Love to listen to you guys and have learned lot and been truly blessed by the clear doctrinal presentations. As a youtube theologian, I found a few thing that did not ring true and so I need to ask if I am missing something. If we as Christians who make up the church adapt a dualistic approach to life, are we not in a since compartmentalizing life? We are called to be salt and light and when we withdraw, we leave our institutions vulnerable to error. Our secular authorities are accountable to God for their decisions and actions and I have been told that if we do not speak out as the holders of God's word, speaking truth to them when they are acting in unrighteous, we are not acting in love. I.e. John the Baptist, Jesus, etc. I would also like to mention that many of the first hospitals, schools and orphanages were founded by the church. Is it possible that the retreat by the church from the public square has led the world to this place? My two cent and i welcome feedback/pushback. God's continued blessing on your ministries!
Very well summed up. I can’t say I agree entirely with theonomy, classical 2K, or this form of 2K, but my main Biblical concerns with this framework are exactly what you stated.
Read Edmund Clowney, " The Unfolding Mystery" 2nd edition and also Michael Brown + Zach Keele "Sacred Bond". Hint: the earliest "christians" are recorded in the pages of the Old Testament! Welcome to the Greatest Story Ever Told - Redemptive History.
Bing search Roger Williams supported this view from Isaiah 5:1-7, which describes God’s people as a “vineyard,” a pure garden enclosed from the wilderness of the world. Williams wrote of a “wall of separation” to describe the church’s proper enclosure from the world. Alluding to Isaiah 5 in a reply letter to Pastor John Cotton
Can someone here please explain which half Christ is not king of? You know so I can know which part to leave Him out of. The bible says that Christ was there at creation and all things were made through and by Him. Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. All who do not and have not bowed the knee are in rebellion. Christ sits at the right hand of the Father on a throne ruling right now. And he is watching us with this wishy washy weak sauce theology talk about some second king and kingdom. Please explain where in the bible Christ gave up any part of his Kingdom?
It amazes me how far people go to hold up this idea of a covenant of works made between God and Adam in the garden. This is the part where reformed theologians assume I don’t understand the doctrine or don’t understand the gospel. I know because I used to be one of those people. What the Lord finally revealed to me, and to many others, is that this teaching minimizes the work of Christ. It assumes that a mere man could fulfill or be equal to the righteousness of God. Jesus, as God the son is the only one who could or would ever be able to fulfill this task. It is shocking to me to think that Adam could have obtained a glorified body apart from resurrection or that Jesus, the eternal Son of God would just take the back seat as Adam attains this glorified status apart from Him. Adam was already perfectly made just like it says in Genesis. There was no need for anything more. There was no expectation of any kind of reward for obedience mentioned in Genesis because God was already in direct relationship with Adam, and everything was already very good. The prohibition of the fruit and the warning that if they eat from it, they will surely die, was not a test for Adam, to somehow gain some new secret knowledge or status that God was holding away from him. It was grace, it was a practical application displaying Adam’s finite nature and dependence on God, at the very least. The idea that there was something more for Adam to gain, that God was keeping from him, was exactly the lie that Satan used to tempt him to eat the fruit in the first place. I spent many many years studying reformed theology. I studied directly under some of the best professors the reformed world has to offer. I served in leadership roles in reformed churches but this inconsistency was like a loose thread that bothered me so much. So I put down all of my systematic and biblical theology’s, all my commentaries all of the great confessions of our faith, and decided to tug on that thread. I started prayerfully reading the Bible. What I realized, is that not one place in the Bible, will you find this covenant of works and covenant of Grace structure. Instead what you find is an old covenant and new covenant structure. I’m not going to get into all the technicalities, but I also found multiple covenants, made with individuals, families, nations, and then finally between the Godhead himself in the second Adam. Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough. Hopefully you find this edifying. It is not my intention to insult or belittle anyone. What we can agree on is that Jesus is central to all of creation and that the gospel is the only message of salvation.
DVD and the hosts managed to turn yet another topic into a discussion of justification. This didn't cover political theology at all. You guys really need to read some old Reformed sermons from 300-400 years ago and see how much different your theology is and and how 1-dimensional it is.
Christ secured for us new life in Him. Gospel nurture and gospel proclamation is chief in the newness of life, but 1) the body is not all one part (officers, mouth, hands, etc...) and 2) new life encompasses all of life for those other parts of the body. So perhaps "the church" isn't called to culture building, but certainly individual Christians are. The Church is, I am convinced, called to *culture maintenance. That is, we've received a heavenly culture, built by the Sprit through saints. After all, our beloved creeds, confessions, hymns, Milton, Herbert, Watts poems are cultural artifacts; the confessions being government sanctioned artifacts to be sure. I think the Church has three options: cultural banality, cultural stagnation, or "building houses, planting churches, marrying our children together, and seeking the commonwealth of the city" where we've been exiled to (as long as the exile epoch lasts). If we truly recovered vocation in the Reformation, than we should be bold no matter where Christ extends his kingdom (the spiritual reign in the hearts of men), be it butcher, baker, candlestick maker, politician, author, director, etc.
I love Dr. VanDrunen's emphasis upon Christ as the last Adam, to describe Jesus as the second Adam can lead to misunderstanding because the word second can be interpreted to mean that another Adam may come later. The Bible always refers to Christ as the last Adam which removes all possiblities of another Adam coming, if pastors and Bible teachers stick to the language of Scripture they will promote clarity
Good point. First and second are clear when we speak of the two Adams, but when I hear second Adam I sometimes think of Noah or Abraham.
So, I have a question that I have not found a good answer to for those holding to this form of 2K theology; Adam was given the dominion mandate as the federal head, which he failed at, leading all mankind into a state of sin. Christ then, in His life, death, and resurrection accomplishes (as the final Adam) what Adam failed to do, and as the “new” federal head He brings man out of sin (death) and into life. . . Are we to assume then that if Adam had not failed, his offspring would not have been held to the same mandate given to him? What I mean is, if Adam and Eve did not fall into sin and had children, would they not have been expected to “be fruitful, multiple, and fill the earth, and have dominion over it”?
The reason I ask is because this form of 2K theology makes it sound as if believers in Christ are free from this mandate (arguably repeated in Matt 28:18-20) because Christ, the final Adam, had succeeded where Adam failed.
Radical two kingdoms < classical two kingdoms.
This was interesting and edifying. On an aside, this framework is quite freeing when applied to the role of the church and working at what our hands find to do. I am looking forward to reading the book. Thank you all for this conversation.
Thanks for the encouragement!
So wonderful .. I’ve realized that what’s important is my being faithful not succeeding in implanting His kimgdom
Thanks!
Love to listen to you guys and have learned lot and been truly blessed by the clear doctrinal presentations. As a youtube theologian, I found a few thing that did not ring true and so I need to ask if I am missing something. If we as Christians who make up the church adapt a dualistic approach to life, are we not in a since compartmentalizing life? We are called to be salt and light and when we withdraw, we leave our institutions vulnerable to error. Our secular authorities are accountable to God for their decisions and actions and I have been told that if we do not speak out as the holders of God's word, speaking truth to them when they are acting in unrighteous, we are not acting in love. I.e. John the Baptist, Jesus, etc. I would also like to mention that many of the first hospitals, schools and orphanages were founded by the church. Is it possible that the retreat by the church from the public square has led the world to this place? My two cent and i welcome feedback/pushback. God's continued blessing on your ministries!
Very well summed up. I can’t say I agree entirely with theonomy, classical 2K, or this form of 2K, but my main Biblical concerns with this framework are exactly what you stated.
REALLY appreciate this topic being discussed!
Excellent! Thank you guys ... keep up the great work!
Thanks David!
Argument from silence 35:00
Have you researched the early Christians view on atonement? Or maybe better to ask, their vote on redemption
Read Edmund Clowney, " The Unfolding Mystery" 2nd edition and also Michael Brown + Zach Keele "Sacred Bond". Hint: the earliest "christians" are recorded in the pages of the Old Testament! Welcome to the Greatest Story Ever Told - Redemptive History.
bookmarking for myself 17:58
We just had Dr Vandrunen at our church!!! Cool
Bing search Roger Williams supported this view from Isaiah 5:1-7, which describes God’s people as a “vineyard,” a pure garden enclosed from the wilderness of the world. Williams wrote of a “wall of separation” to describe the church’s proper enclosure from the world. Alluding to Isaiah 5 in a reply letter to Pastor John Cotton
playing along with Queen'sryce is soo fun huh isn't it though 😊
Can someone here please explain which half Christ is not king of? You know so I can know which part to leave Him out of. The bible says that Christ was there at creation and all things were made through and by Him. Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. All who do not and have not bowed the knee are in rebellion. Christ sits at the right hand of the Father on a throne ruling right now. And he is watching us with this wishy washy weak sauce theology talk about some second king and kingdom. Please explain where in the bible Christ gave up any part of his Kingdom?
All things are in subjection to Christ.
💯💯💯
Church institution = kingdom of God ???
It amazes me how far people go to hold up this idea of a covenant of works made between God and Adam in the garden. This is the part where reformed theologians assume I don’t understand the doctrine or don’t understand the gospel. I know because I used to be one of those people. What the Lord finally revealed to me, and to many others, is that this teaching minimizes the work of Christ. It assumes that a mere man could fulfill or be equal to the righteousness of God. Jesus, as God the son is the only one who could or would ever be able to fulfill this task. It is shocking to me to think that Adam could have obtained a glorified body apart from resurrection or that Jesus, the eternal Son of God would just take the back seat as Adam attains this glorified status apart from Him. Adam was already perfectly made just like it says in Genesis. There was no need for anything more. There was no expectation of any kind of reward for obedience mentioned in Genesis because God was already in direct relationship with Adam, and everything was already very good. The prohibition of the fruit and the warning that if they eat from it, they will surely die, was not a test for Adam, to somehow gain some new secret knowledge or status that God was holding away from him. It was grace, it was a practical application displaying Adam’s finite nature and dependence on God, at the very least. The idea that there was something more for Adam to gain, that God was keeping from him, was exactly the lie that Satan used to tempt him to eat the fruit in the first place. I spent many many years studying reformed theology. I studied directly under some of the best professors the reformed world has to offer. I served in leadership roles in reformed churches but this inconsistency was like a loose thread that bothered me so much. So I put down all of my systematic and biblical theology’s, all my commentaries all of the great confessions of our faith, and decided to tug on that thread. I started prayerfully reading the Bible. What I realized, is that not one place in the Bible, will you find this covenant of works and covenant of Grace structure. Instead what you find is an old covenant and new covenant structure. I’m not going to get into all the technicalities, but I also found multiple covenants, made with individuals, families, nations, and then finally between the Godhead himself in the second Adam. Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough. Hopefully you find this edifying. It is not my intention to insult or belittle anyone. What we can agree on is that Jesus is central to all of creation and that the gospel is the only message of salvation.
Jon, your mic is a little "too hot" ... could you dial it down a bit? It would help while listening to future videos :) Thank you!
Ya, we agree. Wish we would have change that
DVD and the hosts managed to turn yet another topic into a discussion of justification. This didn't cover political theology at all. You guys really need to read some old Reformed sermons from 300-400 years ago and see how much different your theology is and and how 1-dimensional it is.
Christ secured for us new life in Him. Gospel nurture and gospel proclamation is chief in the newness of life, but 1) the body is not all one part (officers, mouth, hands, etc...) and 2) new life encompasses all of life for those other parts of the body. So perhaps "the church" isn't called to culture building, but certainly individual Christians are. The Church is, I am convinced, called to *culture maintenance. That is, we've received a heavenly culture, built by the Sprit through saints. After all, our beloved creeds, confessions, hymns, Milton, Herbert, Watts poems are cultural artifacts; the confessions being government sanctioned artifacts to be sure. I think the Church has three options: cultural banality, cultural stagnation, or "building houses, planting churches, marrying our children together, and seeking the commonwealth of the city" where we've been exiled to (as long as the exile epoch lasts). If we truly recovered vocation in the Reformation, than we should be bold no matter where Christ extends his kingdom (the spiritual reign in the hearts of men), be it butcher, baker, candlestick maker, politician, author, director, etc.
R2K