Too bad it ended so early. I would like to have heard Van Drunen's views on how Christians should participate in politics, as well as in other cultural arenas. When I was at Westminster it was quite pietistic and very anti-cultural with regard to addressing the social issues. Godfrey is correct in stating that these are critical issues that need to be addressed, especially when we observe what is happening within American culture. The question of the Lordship of Christ in all areas of life is the critical issue here. How this issue is worked out will have a direct impact on what the mission of the church should be with regard to discipling the nations. We are called to be both salt and light. In America the church has mainly focused on being the light while ignoring what it means to be salt within the world. Helps to explain why Christianity is so impotent in our nation which has been super-saturated with a Gospel that is culturally impotent.
Implications of Van Drunen-ism. A Lutheran critique. Don't misunderstand Escondido retreatist variety of 2K as the sole Reformed version. ruclips.net/video/oV3fWC29hdI/видео.htmlsi=PdSezVNeylILk1gm
While I still don't fully agree with Van Drunen, this discussion was very helpful for me to understand where the brother is coming from. I know it's old but thank you very much.
This is REALLY helpful discussion. I'm more convinced of the 2k idea after this, though I've learned more about Kuyper and how he is still quite helpful in relating Christians to the civil realm.
This was awful. Dr. Joe Boot was right in saying that 2k theology is an arbitrary-anachronistically-false bifurcation of the image of God bearers reality-this is dualistic-platonistic-devilish-NOT, Christian. There is only a Kingdom of light and a Kingdom of darkness and Christ has authority over ALL. Kuyper said there is not one square inch of reality (paraphrase) that Christ does not say “mine”-ALL is His. Christ is redeeming ALL of creation to Himself not just the church institution as some kind of redemptive kingdom separate from a pseudo common kingdom. The Church institution is part of that, but the church institution is NOT the kingdom of God, they are distinct, but one is part of the other (the church institution being part of the kingdom of God-NOT the other way around). The Noahic covenant was a SPECIAL covenant, not a common one (or else Noah was not apart of Gods special covenant, right? Wrong. We are all in Gods special covenant family. Noah belongs to that as well, not a common covenant). The sons of God expressed in the New Testament BLESS the land and peoples around it sharing the light that God has shared with them; the earth itself groans till the day of redemption…I digress. Effectively, to live in such a way as to apply this 2k theology to everyday life makes a one unnecessarily scizophrenic (living in the common, and redemption then vice versa some way, but we don’t nknow how. This was expressed well during the back in forth in this video) and ultimately missing out on making an impact on culture in the areas of life that Christs rule and reign are soposed to be conquering in victory, but because of ideology like this, we do not see it. I submit the utter IMPOTENCE of the church institution is in large part is a result of this arbitrary-unhelpful ideology, making Abraham Kuyper apart of the kind of ideology he and his work was opposing; “ All of Christ for all of Life” has NOTHING TO DO with 2k theology-Noah knows nothing of it, nor does Moses, David, The Apostles and most certainly our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Like all enemies, this ideology will be another enemy Christ puts under His feet and the last enemy being death (Corinthians 15). We will see Kingdom come and all of life, politics, the arts, medicine, culture (not common-ALL area of life within His creation) the church WILL BE redeemed because the zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this and we are apart of that mission of Christs world domination for all authority has been given to Him in heaven and on earth so we go therefore and disciple the nations, baptizing in the name of The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit, teaching the nations to obey The King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever Amen-oh and did I mention this will be mediated through ALL areas of life? With much love. God bless you☝️❤️☠️ SOLI DEO GLORIA (To The Glory of God Alone) Father, Son & Holy Spirit -Ronnie
I respect Dr. Godfrey but I think he is beating a dead horse in this conversation because Dr. David VanDrunen perfectly answered his question very well but Godfrey just didn’t like his answer
Dr. Godfrey lost me at “those born into families populate the new heaven”. The redeemed are adopted into The Family of God. I am not sure how being born into a family has anything to do with institutions under common grace forming part of the constructs of the new heaven. Can anyone help me understand what he meant by this?
Godfrey’s focus on the family is curious. Does he consider all christian’s children as saved? Also there is no family in eternity (Matt. 22:30). If he were President of the country would he civilly enforce sabbatarianism. Admittedly however it is easier for me to answer his questions as a Sovereign Grace Baptist than Dr. Van Drunen.
Godfrey's view is that children of believers are not saved/elect unless they have faith in Christ, but they "holy" (agias) and are part of the covenant. Growing up in the covenant community, being discipled and partaking of the means of grace within the covenant community does not save anyone. But there is a distinction that is made between covenant children and non-covrnant children. Only thru faith in Christ is one saved. Hope that helps!
By the "common grace" standards he would like to force believers to live by when interacting with unbelievers. Drop the Scriptures, they are outdated and offend the common man, and put on your neutral lenses and play by the rules of the unregenerate.
Here is where it all went awry. The Christian family is not common. "Common" is not even a good term for it. I would argue that both the church and state are holy and that unbelievers are breaking the covenant with God to be His image by setting up unholy families and governments. Hence, the two kingdoms is a part of the already not yet of the current process of creation. God works through the unholy kingdoms to preserve the church until He makes the world holy through the church.
Ironically, for VanDrunen, this debate/discussion proves there's a christian way to do things. I don't think this debate would have been respectful, kind an civil, if two non christian would have had it.
Jimmy Hamilton aka The Street Preacher Sir, we serve a precise God, and these men have committed their lives to educating pastors and teachers in the church of Jesus Christ. Discussing the perspective that we ought to have when we engage unbelievers is not a waste of time. I’m sorry if you leave this talk confused, but Christian academics matter because theology matters. It matters to God that He is fairly and accurately represented by Christian pastors, teachers, and evangelists. An evangelist who doesn’t know the Lord’s Will is detrimental to the witness of the church. So understanding His will in response to an unbelieving culture matters. That is the goal with a discussion such as this.
@@PaulOutsidetheWalls I think Jesus would be amazed at all this bible speak psychobabble. 99% of Christians have no idea what is even being discussed here. Like everything else in both temporal and eternal reality balance is essential. Cam you imagine Christ or Paul having this discussion with anyone. Too many academics have lost the simplicity of the Biblical message. Man is a sinner in need of the Savior. Even the Calvinism/anti-Calvinism debate will never be settled much less all these words and human ideas concerning concepts that few can even understand. You are trying to institute some kind of biblical mandate for a Christian to say and do certain things in certain personally conceived situations. Christ had little thoughts concerning the culture. The only cultural relevance had to do with an individual's understanding of his lostness. We now are being forced into Christian "wokeness" so we can overhaul the culture. History shows that this will never happen [has never happened in the past]. I suppose an optimistic amillennial somehow thinks the culture is going to be affected by telling people who are spiritually dead that they will have a better life if they accept Jesus. This whole discussion is completely unproductive. BTW I love doctrinal discussions, but I have the intellectual honesty to admit I am possibly and probably wrong on some of my most heartfelt beliefs.
Too bad it ended so early. I would like to have heard Van Drunen's views on how Christians should participate in politics, as well as in other cultural arenas. When I was at Westminster it was quite pietistic and very anti-cultural with regard to addressing the social issues. Godfrey is correct in stating that these are critical issues that need to be addressed, especially when we observe what is happening within American culture. The question of the Lordship of Christ in all areas of life is the critical issue here. How this issue is worked out will have a direct impact on what the mission of the church should be with regard to discipling the nations. We are called to be both salt and light. In America the church has mainly focused on being the light while ignoring what it means to be salt within the world. Helps to explain why Christianity is so impotent in our nation which has been super-saturated with a Gospel that is culturally impotent.
Let me look for Van Drunen in the foxholes. As the saying goes, if you do not want to use a gun, at least help to carry bullets for your comrades.
Implications of Van Drunen-ism. A Lutheran critique. Don't misunderstand Escondido retreatist variety of 2K as the sole Reformed version.
ruclips.net/video/oV3fWC29hdI/видео.htmlsi=PdSezVNeylILk1gm
While I still don't fully agree with Van Drunen, this discussion was very helpful for me to understand where the brother is coming from. I know it's old but thank you very much.
Very relevant talk right now
It would be helpful to define R2K modern view as compared with a traditional 2 kingdoms understanding.
This is REALLY helpful discussion. I'm more convinced of the 2k idea after this, though I've learned more about Kuyper and how he is still quite helpful in relating Christians to the civil realm.
This was awful. Dr. Joe Boot was right in saying that 2k theology is an arbitrary-anachronistically-false bifurcation of the image of God bearers reality-this is dualistic-platonistic-devilish-NOT, Christian. There is only a Kingdom of light and a Kingdom of darkness and Christ has authority over ALL. Kuyper said there is not one square inch of reality (paraphrase) that Christ does not say “mine”-ALL is His. Christ is redeeming ALL of creation to Himself not just the church institution as some kind of redemptive kingdom separate from a pseudo common kingdom.
The Church institution is part of that, but the church institution is NOT the kingdom of God, they are distinct, but one is part of the other (the church institution being part of the kingdom of God-NOT the other way around).
The Noahic covenant was a SPECIAL covenant, not a common one (or else Noah was not apart of Gods special covenant, right? Wrong. We are all in Gods special covenant family. Noah belongs to that as well, not a common covenant). The sons of God expressed in the New Testament BLESS the land and peoples around it sharing the light that God has shared with them; the earth itself groans till the day of redemption…I digress.
Effectively, to live in such a way as to apply this 2k theology to everyday life makes a one unnecessarily scizophrenic (living in the common, and redemption then vice versa some way, but we don’t nknow how. This was expressed well during the back in forth in this video) and ultimately missing out on making an impact on culture in the areas of life that Christs rule and reign are soposed to be conquering in victory, but because of ideology like this, we do not see it. I submit the utter IMPOTENCE of the church institution is in large part is a result of this arbitrary-unhelpful ideology, making Abraham Kuyper apart of the kind of ideology he and his work was opposing; “ All of Christ for all of Life” has NOTHING TO DO with 2k theology-Noah knows nothing of it, nor does Moses, David, The Apostles and most certainly our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
Like all enemies, this ideology will be another enemy Christ puts under His feet and the last enemy being death (Corinthians 15). We will see Kingdom come and all of life, politics, the arts, medicine, culture (not common-ALL area of life within His creation) the church WILL BE redeemed because the zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this and we are apart of that mission of Christs world domination for all authority has been given to Him in heaven and on earth so we go therefore and disciple the nations, baptizing in the name of The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit, teaching the nations to obey The King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever Amen-oh and did I mention this will be mediated through ALL areas of life?
With much love. God bless you☝️❤️☠️
SOLI DEO GLORIA
(To The Glory of God Alone)
Father, Son & Holy Spirit
-Ronnie
I respect Dr. Godfrey but I think he is beating a dead horse in this conversation because Dr. David VanDrunen perfectly answered his question very well but Godfrey just didn’t like his answer
As a Baptist- I don’t have the issue with the position of the family. Lol
Augustine’s kids disagreeing on Augustine
Dr. Godfrey lost me at “those born into families populate the new heaven”. The redeemed are adopted into The Family of God. I am not sure how being born into a family has anything to do with institutions under common grace forming part of the constructs of the new heaven. Can anyone help me understand what he meant by this?
I think the reason he was unclear is because it seems his mind on this is unclear.
Godfrey’s focus on the family is curious. Does he consider all christian’s children as saved? Also there is no family in eternity (Matt. 22:30). If he were President of the country would he civilly enforce sabbatarianism. Admittedly however it is easier for me to answer his questions as a Sovereign Grace Baptist than Dr. Van Drunen.
Godfrey's view is that children of believers are not saved/elect unless they have faith in Christ, but they "holy" (agias) and are part of the covenant. Growing up in the covenant community, being discipled and partaking of the means of grace within the covenant community does not save anyone. But there is a distinction that is made between covenant children and non-covrnant children. Only thru faith in Christ is one saved.
Hope that helps!
Does God have a focus on the family? Or is it apart of the common world?
53:15 - By what standard tho? 😎
Yes!!!
By the "common grace" standards he would like to force believers to live by when interacting with unbelievers. Drop the Scriptures, they are outdated and offend the common man, and put on your neutral lenses and play by the rules of the unregenerate.
My man., "By This Standard" #GodsLaw #Natural&Special
This "debate" was a nonsensical mess.
Yet you didnt show how it was, which does make your comment a bit of a mess.
Here is where it all went awry. The Christian family is not common. "Common" is not even a good term for it. I would argue that both the church and state are holy and that unbelievers are breaking the covenant with God to be His image by setting up unholy families and governments. Hence, the two kingdoms is a part of the already not yet of the current process of creation. God works through the unholy kingdoms to preserve the church until He makes the world holy through the church.
Kuyper can be too blunt regarding how he describes calvanism but we def can't integrate his values in 2020. That's like shoving pie in your face.
Ironically, for VanDrunen, this debate/discussion proves there's a christian way to do things. I don't think this debate would have been respectful, kind an civil, if two non christian would have had it.
What utter confusion. God saves us from these Christian academics.
Jimmy Hamilton aka The Street Preacher
Sir, we serve a precise God, and these men have committed their lives to educating pastors and teachers in the church of Jesus Christ. Discussing the perspective that we ought to have when we engage unbelievers is not a waste of time. I’m sorry if you leave this talk confused, but Christian academics matter because theology matters. It matters to God that He is fairly and accurately represented by Christian pastors, teachers, and evangelists. An evangelist who doesn’t know the Lord’s Will is detrimental to the witness of the church.
So understanding His will in response to an unbelieving culture matters. That is the goal with a discussion such as this.
@@PaulOutsidetheWalls Radical 2 kingdoms is not correct, though. The 2 kingdoms are the internal spiritual and the external world, church included.
@@PaulOutsidetheWalls I think Jesus would be amazed at all this bible speak psychobabble. 99% of Christians have no idea what is even being discussed here. Like everything else in both temporal and eternal reality balance is essential. Cam you imagine Christ or Paul having this discussion with anyone. Too many academics have lost the simplicity of the Biblical message. Man is a sinner in need of the Savior. Even the Calvinism/anti-Calvinism debate will never be settled much less all these words and human ideas concerning concepts that few can even understand. You are trying to institute some kind of biblical mandate for a Christian to say and do certain things in certain personally conceived situations. Christ had little thoughts concerning the culture. The only cultural relevance had to do with an individual's understanding of his lostness. We now are being forced into Christian "wokeness" so we can overhaul the culture. History shows that this will never happen [has never happened in the past]. I suppose an optimistic amillennial somehow thinks the culture is going to be affected by telling people who are spiritually dead that they will have a better life if they accept Jesus. This whole discussion is completely unproductive. BTW I love doctrinal discussions, but I have the intellectual honesty to admit I am possibly and probably wrong on some of my most heartfelt beliefs.