So despite my scepticism on the W.O. M.G. 03 mark, WO *does* stand for War Office - Soley were slapping WO nomenclature on their would-be trials weapons, which is something I've not seen before. So it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
My first thought was that M.G.O.3 was pertaining to some subdivision of the War Office, but then I brushed this idea off as too wild. Turns out, It was really that. Thanks for keeping us updated, Jonathan!
As you were describing this weapon I was thinking was it some attempt at a War Office requirement for a P.D.W. like weapon for lorry drivers/tank crews in the 1930's.
Mention of a "Beretta arm obtained on loan from the Soley Armament Company" appears in correspondence from the Chief Inspector of Small Arms in January 1933. He described it as "quite promising", but that it was "not for sale". (Soley actually did make some guns directly on commission of the CISA so maybe this was built for him.) The design work on this gun was almost certainly done by a Belgian gunsmith, Edgard Grimard, who was partnered with the Soley Company in the 1930s. He also designed a modified Lewis gun which they produced. The ventilated upper handguard on this weapon is heavily reminiscent of another Italian submachine gun which was available around the same period, the Armaguerra Mod. 1935. I suspect Grimard was pretty well familiarized with Italian subguns.
Also, I should add, I don't think this gun was designed with the intent of creating a more compact version of the Beretta 1918/30. It's only about 60mm shorter; no effort has been made to shorten the receiver or barrel (in fact I think the barrel is actually longer on the Soley gun). I reckon this was more likely an experiment in ergonomic handling, or otherwise something completely frivolous.
A New York Times article of 1936 stated that Captain J. Ball of the Soley Arms Co. Ltd admitted paying US dealers to take a loss on war surplus weapons. Another record that I found on a well known search platform said that the company was accused of manufacturing the Berretta without a licence.
And now I am starting my betting pool that this will get included in Sniper Elite 6 or DLC to SE5 at least. Wacky prototype, check. Weirdly plausible, check. "Exotic" looking, check. Yup, the guys at Rebellion must be wiping the floor from saliva right now.
You are spot on, well, as far as we can tell :) "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3". Why the hell a civvie designer is bothering to slap that on their guns, who knows. I've never seen anyone else do that.
Nearly - it turns out (we are almost sure) Soley were slapping WO nomenclature on their would-be trials weapons. So it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
Are you sure there shouldn't be some kind of cover (maybe bakelite that's cracked and been lost?) over the magazine to form a proper grip? In the closeup there's some kind of notch on the reinforcing plates on the side of the magazine housing that seems to serve no purpose, and there does appear to be quite a lot of open space around where the magazine goes through the trigger plate. There's not even a top lip forming a magazine well which seems really rather odd, and would surely lead to a lot of dirt ingress, even on a prototype.
The same occurred to me but I've never seen a mark or abbreviation like that anywhere and this is not a machine gun by any stretch. Until the Sterling era an SMG was a 'Machine Carbine' in Britain.
1:20 The use of magazine in the pistol grip at this early date is truly remarkable! The date puts this gun whole five years ahead of the first Soviet and Italian designs of this type, and a decade before the first truly successful one, the Czechoslovak SA vz. 48. 1:49 How can one resist such an invitation?! My wild guess would be that W.O. means simply the War Office, while M.G.O.3 might refer to some requirement pertaining to machineguns and ordnance (or maybe, 'machineguns, other' in the reverse nomenclature of the day) issued by it. 5:33 A dreadful opening for mud ingress, incidentally. Makes me think that it would be one of the first things noted during the trials. 11:29 Isn't the true prototype of this design a type of bayonet used on the Mod. 91C Carcano cavalry carbine? The usefulness of it on a gun as short as these two is highly debatable, though, with people like Matt Easton demonstrating its limitations as opposed to the gun & knife/dagger weapon set.
With regards to the mag in the pistol grip, the Japanese were probably first; the experimental Nambu Model 1 used a grip-feed system as early as 1933. Possibly predating even that, there is an experimental SMG made for Austrian trials which uses this configuration, though the exact date and manufacturer are unknown (personally I reckon it's a Mauser design). You're right that the folding bayonet was originally designed for the Carcano cavalry carbine. The Beretta guns just lifted from the Carcano, because the first Beretta automatic carbines were actually produced using recycled components.
@@jameslawrence2446 Now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall reading about this Nambu design. The Austrian trials you mention are those of 1930, am I getting it right? As for the use of Carcano bayonets, I think more important than just using up spare parts (and to be honest, this is the first time I'm reading that Beretta actually did this) is the fact that the Mod. 91C carbines were employed by the intended users of the Beretta submachineguns during WW1, so it stands to reason to use the same system here for reasons of familiarity.
@@F1ghteR41 RE: the bayonets, the Italian 'moschetti automatici' were originally intended to have detachable Mod. 91 bayonets but were changed to have the cavalry style bayonet because they were assembled at the MIDA factory in Brescia, using many of the same components as the Carcano carbines made there.
@@F1ghteR41 It was actually originally designed for military use, however it failed to attract a substantial military contract. The primary users of the Mod. 1918/30 were paramilitary forces such as the Milizia Nazionale (Blackshirts) and Milizia Forestale (Forestry Police). Needless to say, the situation around the Beretta automatic carbines is very complicated and most sources are full of myths and misconceptions about them. I can't really explain it in full here but I could direct you to some better sources if you are interested.
Thanks very much, Jonathan and team. This looks exactly like the sort of weird design I might have expected to find in an odd corner at the Pattern Room, had I ever managed to visit there. The upper and lower attachments to the butt might have been inspired by some of the hooked buttplates on Schuetzen style target rifles, to help keep the butt in a consistent place for more accurate shooting. As others have speculated, placing the main shooting grip at more or less the centre of gravity may have been to make it easier to fire one-handed, except that its weight of 3.85kg isn't going to help much with that. But never mind, this will also make it ideal for dual wielding in video games.
Isn't 9mm Glisenti loaded to the velocity of 9mm Parabellum literally just 9mm Parabellum? My understanding is that 9mm Glisenti is just a reduced power 9mm Parabellum.
@@bengtjakobsson5177 It isn't that unusual. We even have the same today going the other way with commercially available +P+ loads that I wouldn't want to use with many early 9mm pistols. Also consider the time, in 1910 9mm Luger was still a pretty niche thing that (as far as I am aware) only the German Army and Navy had adopted. And it didn't become very big commercially until post-WWI. So it was unlikely there would be a real risk that 9mm Parabellum gets anywhere in the Italian supply chain. And they had the pistol they wanted it just wasn't resilient enough with full powered 9mm Parabellum, so why not just download it?
@@bengtjakobsson5177 I'd think the opposite is true. The original loading of 9x19 isn't powerful enough, many people argue these days. Which is why.38 Super was developed (9x18 semi-rimmed case) in the '70s. There's no point to that one though, because 9 Largo was already equivalent (9x22.7mm, 1910s) but that doesn't $ell anything new and 'innovative' so they made .38 Super anyway.
@@spacewater7 .38 Super was developed in the 1920s as a high velocity alternative to .45 and .38 ACP by packing more powder into a .38 ACP case. In the 1970s +P variants were brought isn't substantially better than +P and +P+ 9x19.
War Office machine gun no 3 (3rd one made, possibly 2 missing or failed in testing) As for the arms on stock, What it could be for is mounted use, pulled in to shoulder while the other hand is holding the side of a vehicle, horse reins, handle on a motorbike, any number of uses.
This is me speculating mid video, but the stock kind of made me think could it be that it was intended to be a Paratrooper weapon or weapon to be used by people from an elevated position of some sort? as mentioned in the video it seems to be made to in some way keep the other hand free, which could mean maybe it was also cause the person using it would be holding onto something else while using it.
I was wondering if the intention was for someone like a motorcycle courier or sidecar passenger where the other hand would be needed to hang on or operate the vehicle. In fact, it's oddly symmetrical for a British weapon with that centralised cocking handle and the ejection port on the very top (both of which come from the parent Beretta) which makes me wonder if it was intended from the outset to be ambidextrous and enable offhand use with a single hand. I'm even wondering having watched the full video if it actually started life as its current configuration or whether it was originally an actual Beretta 18/30 or at least a near 1:1 copy. The extended metal plate on the lower side of the stock joining the metal "buttstock" looks awfully like it might be covering up a cut out in the wood where the trigger would originally have been located, and looking at the new trigger guard, it really does look like an afterthought that's been shaped to fit the existing space, it's incredibly short for a combat weapon.
I thought it might be for stability when firing in the prone position, with the magazine in a pretty reasonable location for that purpose. Hence the ambitious sight range. It would be interesting to see if you can get your eye behind the sights any easier in that position.
@@jonathanferguson1211 and MG doesn't fit any British nomenclature or if it is machine gun, any known WO requirement of the time (if 1938 is the date of production). And that length of barrel... It's a SMG if the spec is to be 'every feature is not to conform to what advantages an SMG has'.
@@domhogan7842 What about if it referred to the War Office Department of the Master General of the Ordinance - just wondering if the 0 is actually an O as it's the same symbol as the one in WO, so it's WO MGO 3 not WO MG 03. So "War Office, (department of) Master General (of the) Ordinance". That could link it to an intended use within artillery, engineering, or transport, all of whom make sense as potential recipients of an odd, one handed, compact carbine (or possibly ultimately an SMG).
And, I was wrong, it IS War Office! Well, almost certainly. For some reason it appears Soley were marking their prospective trials weapons "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
I seem to recall that Soley modified the Lewis LMG with a Bren mag &removed the barrel shroud during the Phoney war when the British Army felt it was outgunned by the Germans with their MG34s &MP 38s&40s. The Soley-Lewis was meant to be an automatic rifle. Maybe this is related?
hi, Jonathan !!! this bullpup is an improved of beretta mod. 18 called "siringone", the magazine of beretta 18 is the same than this bullpup, the beretta 18 was a semiauto carbine improved from smg "Villar Perosa" ... bye bye 👍👋
Well, sort out all the issues, (polish the design, put a decent stock on it, fix the magazine catch and fit etc etc), and it'll be better than the sten, if a bit more costly. Oh, and lose the bayonet.
It looks like a truck ran over an antique Schmidt Rubin, the driver felt bad about it, and tried to repair it with some stuff he found in a dustbin....there you go...good as new 🤣
Cheers Jonathan for mentioning the Viper in this video, agree the stock has that one handed sort of idea. I did my research project about the development of viper at the armouries as an intern back in 2011. Glad to know understanding the story has been useful for other projects all these years later.
Maybe you could have a competition for the public to name some of those anonymous oddballs in your collection. I’m sure the results would be both entertaining and informative, what could possibly go wrong?
I cover this in my book. It simply means a young bulldog. It fell out of usage in the 20th century but was still widely used and known in the 1930s-40s when it was coined in the US.
i think americans tried this concept out in like the 50s or 60s, i believe the gun is called the hs10 and it was a shotgun intended for police to shoot from a moving car with one hand
@@blarpnarp yep, the HS10 was meant to be usable with one hand for things like opening doors or operating other equipment like flashlights or tear gas.
I remember spending an inordinate amount of time, pre you tube/internet, designing a useful smg for British army for WW2. Had something fairly similar to this designed. The advantage of magazine in the grip for intuitive loading appealed. Eventually I came up with a design like the beretta 1918, but using lee Enfield stocks. I thought the Tokarev round would give better range. Also accompanying this was WW2 tech body armour. Essentially a doron chest and back piece similar to modern rifle plates but only effective against shrapnel and pistol ammo.
I wonder if W O M G 3 was a design contract / specification (like F.5/34 was the design specification the RAF issued for what became the Hurricane and Spitfire). The National Archives mark War Office documents with a WO prefix, so it could be War Office Machine Gun [specification number] 3? That may explain why there aren't many and it isn't stamped with an official 'name'.
W.O.-M.G. clearly stands for: War Ordnance - Ministry of Guns 03 stands for Oak Tree used for furniture among several other kinds of limber marked differently.
War Office - Machine Gun RFP 03 The pseudo hand position on the rear stock looks like it was intended to be used just like a rifle when bayonet training/fighting.
I absolutely love viewing these videos that present to me, new and unusual, rare prototype experimental small arms, well done and please keep up the good work.👍
The "War Office" guesses are intuitive, but I think it's likely this was originally made for the little-known postwar counterespionage agency W.O.O.C.(P).
With that curious buttstock, I can't help but wonder if this was conceptualized as either an officer's or a grenadier's firearm. That way they could fire while manipulating an explosive or giving 1 handed directions
The Beretta is a real beauty, which makes the Soley being such an ugly duckling so funny. It’s a shame that the SMG was such an afterthought for the UK in the immediate pre-war period.
Interesting that they decided to make a compact version of the Beretta only for it to have the same overall length. Did they simply want one with a longer barrel without making a longer gun? Would've been interesting to see a version that would've just been an Uzified Beretta.
so Soley (almost) bullpups a 9mm pistol cartridge weapon so they could make the barrel longer??? For what? 9mm can't really make use of the extra barrel...
I’ll say it again. Lousy lighting and the need for close ups is necessary. The dark cloth with shadows obscure details with the overhead shots. Which are too far away anyway. It’s so annoying because all the firearms presented are fascinating.
A million rounds of 9mm were captured off the Italians in the Middle East. This was likely an attempt to produce something to use it with minimal development. The Sten must have been a better one.
This is the third video that has annoyed/disappointed me with the camera work. Zoom ins are a few seconds late and the away shots are too distant. Tight shots are best. Fill the lens with Ferguson, we don't need a panoramic view after the briefest bit on introduction. Be sure the camera is focused on the guns in zoom shots, all too often the clearest bit is Mr Ferguson's face. It's a handsome face, of course, but the point of interest is the weapon feature he is holding up for inspection at that moment.
Might I suggest Standard, Bullpup and 'pistol type' (I know there are lugers and some other pistols with weird 'standard' layouts - but...) as a breakdown to clearly distinguish things like this and the UZIs which are so clearly more 'machine pistol' in their grip than standard SMG or Bullpup types?
Some definitions of "bull pup" would include the Spencer and Evans rifles from the American Civil War and the period following it. (Magazine runs back to the butt-plate).
I've heard of pre ww2 SMG trials held in UK that were supposed to have been prequisite for possible SMG adaptation for the British military. I've heard a story that the Suomi m/31 got the best points in the trials against other available options for license build SMG, but the start of the ww2 prevented any new sales from Finland, and other priorities game alo g with UK weapons needs. Do you happen to have any information of such a SMG trials held in UK at late part of 30's (1938-40?)?
There were never formal competitive trials held prior to WW2 but many designs were tested by the Ordnance Board. In 1939, the BSA-Király, a British-made Hungarian design, was submitted and seemed to be a very good proposition in both quality and cost, but was rejected without much elaboration. Later they tested a Suomi KP/31 with a quadruple-column casket magazine and considered applying the same idea to the Bren gun, but nothing came of it. Almost immediately after the war broke out, the BEF made an immediate request to the OB for a supply of SMGs for informal field trials. The Thompson, Steyr-Solothurn, Suomi, and Hyde were all sent. The Suomi was preferred but only the Thompson could be acquired at short notice, even though it was the most expensive option by some considerable margin (£50 per gun). In February 1940 the OB ordered 450 M1928AC Thompson guns which were issued to the BEF and used in action prior to the Fall of France.
W.O. - M.G 0.3 CAL 9m/m MODEL 2 One can only assume that deep in the archives of Soley Armaments, now probably lost to time and a skip, there’s an explanation?
So despite my scepticism on the W.O. M.G. 03 mark, WO *does* stand for War Office - Soley were slapping WO nomenclature on their would-be trials weapons, which is something I've not seen before. So it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
My first thought was that M.G.O.3 was pertaining to some subdivision of the War Office, but then I brushed this idea off as too wild. Turns out, It was really that. Thanks for keeping us updated, Jonathan!
so do i get half a curly wurly then ?
@@balthiousdire6795 only if I get the whole one for filling in all the blanks!
As you were describing this weapon I was thinking was it some attempt at a War Office requirement for a P.D.W. like weapon for lorry drivers/tank crews in the 1930's.
I was thinking that or weapons ordinance?🤔
Only Johnathan can be sat in front of a wall of EM-2s and be holding something more interesting than those.
And XL60's....
It's an almighty flex though....no-one else has more than 1 EM-2...there are 13 on that rack alone...
Mention of a "Beretta arm obtained on loan from the Soley Armament Company" appears in correspondence from the Chief Inspector of Small Arms in January 1933. He described it as "quite promising", but that it was "not for sale". (Soley actually did make some guns directly on commission of the CISA so maybe this was built for him.)
The design work on this gun was almost certainly done by a Belgian gunsmith, Edgard Grimard, who was partnered with the Soley Company in the 1930s. He also designed a modified Lewis gun which they produced.
The ventilated upper handguard on this weapon is heavily reminiscent of another Italian submachine gun which was available around the same period, the Armaguerra Mod. 1935. I suspect Grimard was pretty well familiarized with Italian subguns.
Also, I should add, I don't think this gun was designed with the intent of creating a more compact version of the Beretta 1918/30. It's only about 60mm shorter; no effort has been made to shorten the receiver or barrel (in fact I think the barrel is actually longer on the Soley gun). I reckon this was more likely an experiment in ergonomic handling, or otherwise something completely frivolous.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
Very interesting, thanks James!
@@jameslawrence2446 Agreed, although as with the Viper, making the weapon slightly shorter is a benefit, in terms of balance if nothing else.
A New York Times article of 1936 stated that Captain J. Ball of the Soley Arms Co. Ltd admitted paying US dealers to take a loss on war surplus weapons. Another record that I found on a well known search platform said that the company was accused of manufacturing the Berretta without a licence.
It's like a WW2 British UZI, as bizarre as it is cool haha
😊
After Actually watching I change my emoji to
🤮
shortening the barrel like a Sten gun would be great for urban ops
British love Czech designs even then. Uzi is based off of a couple Czech designs.
VZ 48: ;~;
Part of the devilish plan to mount Cavalry on Ostriches. One hand for the rifle, one for the reins.
"War Ostrich Mg#3"
Would have been quite useful in North Africa.
Not really that far fetched 🤔
Genius!
That is... unique, to say the least. Looks like a bit of an ergonomic nightmare, but god damn it’s pretty
And now I am starting my betting pool that this will get included in Sniper Elite 6 or DLC to SE5 at least. Wacky prototype, check. Weirdly plausible, check. "Exotic" looking, check. Yup, the guys at Rebellion must be wiping the floor from saliva right now.
WO = War Office, MGO = Master General of the Ordnance, 3 , possibly third directorate (?)
and yes, I'm ex RAOC :) lol
You are spot on, well, as far as we can tell :) "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3". Why the hell a civvie designer is bothering to slap that on their guns, who knows. I've never seen anyone else do that.
W.O is War Office - maybe a prototype made to fit a W/O specification (MG 03?) issued in that period of time.
That was what I was going to say.
Same thinking: War Office ‘Machine Gun 03’ as shorthand for a spec.
Yep. "War Office - Machine Gun 03" was what came to my mind.
or Master General of the Ordnance?
Nearly - it turns out (we are almost sure) Soley were slapping WO nomenclature on their would-be trials weapons. So it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
Are you sure there shouldn't be some kind of cover (maybe bakelite that's cracked and been lost?) over the magazine to form a proper grip? In the closeup there's some kind of notch on the reinforcing plates on the side of the magazine housing that seems to serve no purpose, and there does appear to be quite a lot of open space around where the magazine goes through the trigger plate. There's not even a top lip forming a magazine well which seems really rather odd, and would surely lead to a lot of dirt ingress, even on a prototype.
It's perfectly possible.
My guess is war office - machine gun 03
The same occurred to me but I've never seen a mark or abbreviation like that anywhere and this is not a machine gun by any stretch. Until the Sterling era an SMG was a 'Machine Carbine' in Britain.
1:20 The use of magazine in the pistol grip at this early date is truly remarkable! The date puts this gun whole five years ahead of the first Soviet and Italian designs of this type, and a decade before the first truly successful one, the Czechoslovak SA vz. 48.
1:49 How can one resist such an invitation?! My wild guess would be that W.O. means simply the War Office, while M.G.O.3 might refer to some requirement pertaining to machineguns and ordnance (or maybe, 'machineguns, other' in the reverse nomenclature of the day) issued by it.
5:33 A dreadful opening for mud ingress, incidentally. Makes me think that it would be one of the first things noted during the trials.
11:29 Isn't the true prototype of this design a type of bayonet used on the Mod. 91C Carcano cavalry carbine? The usefulness of it on a gun as short as these two is highly debatable, though, with people like Matt Easton demonstrating its limitations as opposed to the gun & knife/dagger weapon set.
With regards to the mag in the pistol grip, the Japanese were probably first; the experimental Nambu Model 1 used a grip-feed system as early as 1933. Possibly predating even that, there is an experimental SMG made for Austrian trials which uses this configuration, though the exact date and manufacturer are unknown (personally I reckon it's a Mauser design).
You're right that the folding bayonet was originally designed for the Carcano cavalry carbine. The Beretta guns just lifted from the Carcano, because the first Beretta automatic carbines were actually produced using recycled components.
@@jameslawrence2446 Now that you mentioned it, I seem to recall reading about this Nambu design. The Austrian trials you mention are those of 1930, am I getting it right?
As for the use of Carcano bayonets, I think more important than just using up spare parts (and to be honest, this is the first time I'm reading that Beretta actually did this) is the fact that the Mod. 91C carbines were employed by the intended users of the Beretta submachineguns during WW1, so it stands to reason to use the same system here for reasons of familiarity.
@@F1ghteR41 RE: the bayonets, the Italian 'moschetti automatici' were originally intended to have detachable Mod. 91 bayonets but were changed to have the cavalry style bayonet because they were assembled at the MIDA factory in Brescia, using many of the same components as the Carcano carbines made there.
@@jameslawrence2446 But the semi-auto Mod. 18/30 was made for the Carabinieri, who were issued with Mod. 91C from the very beginning.
@@F1ghteR41 It was actually originally designed for military use, however it failed to attract a substantial military contract. The primary users of the Mod. 1918/30 were paramilitary forces such as the Milizia Nazionale (Blackshirts) and Milizia Forestale (Forestry Police).
Needless to say, the situation around the Beretta automatic carbines is very complicated and most sources are full of myths and misconceptions about them. I can't really explain it in full here but I could direct you to some better sources if you are interested.
Thanks very much, Jonathan and team. This looks exactly like the sort of weird design I might have expected to find in an odd corner at the Pattern Room, had I ever managed to visit there.
The upper and lower attachments to the butt might have been inspired by some of the hooked buttplates on Schuetzen style target rifles, to help keep the butt in a consistent place for more accurate shooting.
As others have speculated, placing the main shooting grip at more or less the centre of gravity may have been to make it easier to fire one-handed, except that its weight of 3.85kg isn't going to help much with that.
But never mind, this will also make it ideal for dual wielding in video games.
Isn't 9mm Glisenti loaded to the velocity of 9mm Parabellum literally just 9mm Parabellum?
My understanding is that 9mm Glisenti is just a reduced power 9mm Parabellum.
Good point, and sources agree.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm_Glisenti
I thought exactly the same. Also absolutely idiotic to make a cartridge in the exact same dimensions as another but stronger one that is to powerful.
@@bengtjakobsson5177 It isn't that unusual. We even have the same today going the other way with commercially available +P+ loads that I wouldn't want to use with many early 9mm pistols.
Also consider the time, in 1910 9mm Luger was still a pretty niche thing that (as far as I am aware) only the German Army and Navy had adopted. And it didn't become very big commercially until post-WWI. So it was unlikely there would be a real risk that 9mm Parabellum gets anywhere in the Italian supply chain. And they had the pistol they wanted it just wasn't resilient enough with full powered 9mm Parabellum, so why not just download it?
@@bengtjakobsson5177 I'd think the opposite is true. The original loading of 9x19 isn't powerful enough, many people argue these days. Which is why.38 Super was developed (9x18 semi-rimmed case) in the '70s. There's no point to that one though, because 9 Largo was already equivalent (9x22.7mm, 1910s) but that doesn't $ell anything new and 'innovative' so they made .38 Super anyway.
@@spacewater7 .38 Super was developed in the 1920s as a high velocity alternative to .45 and .38 ACP by packing more powder into a .38 ACP case.
In the 1970s +P variants were brought isn't substantially better than +P and +P+ 9x19.
War Office machine gun no 3 (3rd one made, possibly 2 missing or failed in testing)
As for the arms on stock,
What it could be for is mounted use, pulled in to shoulder while the other hand is holding the side of a vehicle, horse reins, handle on a motorbike, any number of uses.
The wall of weapons behind Jonathan has to be his personal bull pup heaven
You can buy a MG03 gun nowadays! Don’t you guys do any research?
It’s a cordless massage gun......
This is me speculating mid video, but the stock kind of made me think could it be that it was intended to be a Paratrooper weapon or weapon to be used by people from an elevated position of some sort?
as mentioned in the video it seems to be made to in some way keep the other hand free, which could mean maybe it was also cause the person using it would be holding onto something else while using it.
I was wondering if the intention was for someone like a motorcycle courier or sidecar passenger where the other hand would be needed to hang on or operate the vehicle.
In fact, it's oddly symmetrical for a British weapon with that centralised cocking handle and the ejection port on the very top (both of which come from the parent Beretta) which makes me wonder if it was intended from the outset to be ambidextrous and enable offhand use with a single hand.
I'm even wondering having watched the full video if it actually started life as its current configuration or whether it was originally an actual Beretta 18/30 or at least a near 1:1 copy. The extended metal plate on the lower side of the stock joining the metal "buttstock" looks awfully like it might be covering up a cut out in the wood where the trigger would originally have been located, and looking at the new trigger guard, it really does look like an afterthought that's been shaped to fit the existing space, it's incredibly short for a combat weapon.
I thought it might be for stability when firing in the prone position, with the magazine in a pretty reasonable location for that purpose. Hence the ambitious sight range. It would be interesting to see if you can get your eye behind the sights any easier in that position.
WO for War Office, the name at the time for the MoD?
W.O. is definitely an abbreviation for War Office but it makes little sense in this context.
@@jonathanferguson1211 and MG doesn't fit any British nomenclature or if it is machine gun, any known WO requirement of the time (if 1938 is the date of production). And that length of barrel... It's a SMG if the spec is to be 'every feature is not to conform to what advantages an SMG has'.
@@domhogan7842 What about if it referred to the War Office Department of the Master General of the Ordinance - just wondering if the 0 is actually an O as it's the same symbol as the one in WO, so it's WO MGO 3 not WO MG 03. So "War Office, (department of) Master General (of the) Ordinance". That could link it to an intended use within artillery, engineering, or transport, all of whom make sense as potential recipients of an odd, one handed, compact carbine (or possibly ultimately an SMG).
And, I was wrong, it IS War Office! Well, almost certainly. For some reason it appears Soley were marking their prospective trials weapons "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
@@jonathanferguson1211 wahey, I nailed it first try!
I seem to recall that Soley modified the Lewis LMG with a Bren mag &removed the barrel shroud during the
Phoney war when the British Army felt it was outgunned by the Germans with their MG34s &MP 38s&40s. The Soley-Lewis was meant to be an automatic rifle. Maybe this is related?
WO MG: War Office - Machine Gun? Actually, I like "Ministry of Guns" as mentioned below.
I don't care, I like it. 😂
It's torture seeing those EM 2's behind you.
hi, Jonathan !!!
this bullpup is an improved of beretta mod. 18 called "siringone", the magazine of beretta 18 is the same than this bullpup, the beretta 18 was a semiauto carbine improved from smg "Villar Perosa" ...
bye bye
👍👋
Well, sort out all the issues, (polish the design, put a decent stock on it, fix the magazine catch and fit etc etc), and it'll be better than the sten, if a bit more costly. Oh, and lose the bayonet.
W. O. = War Office? That’s a thing in the UK, right?
I do love the fact that Jonathan has acsess to guns from every "What if?" ClockpunkSteampunk/Desilpunk/Cyberpunk game ever.
He is the Doctor Who of Brit Guns
When fully deployed with that bayonet and stock it does look kinda... nice? Unusual and interesting for sure. Great vid!
It looks like a truck ran over an antique Schmidt Rubin, the driver felt bad about it, and tried to repair it with some stuff he found in a dustbin....there you go...good as new 🤣
beautiful smg in a way that almost looks futuristic especially for pre-ww2 sub guns
would have been very handy for paratroops
Bioshock
WO MGO3 = War Office Master General of the Ordnance Secretariat 3?
Cheers Jonathan for mentioning the Viper in this video, agree the stock has that one handed sort of idea. I did my research project about the development of viper at the armouries as an intern back in 2011. Glad to know understanding the story has been useful for other projects all these years later.
I look forward to seeing it in the next WW2 shooter.
Maybe you could have a competition for the public to name some of those anonymous oddballs in your collection. I’m sure the results would be both entertaining and informative, what could possibly go wrong?
I am curious where the term "bull pup" came from. Any suggestions?
I cover this in my book. It simply means a young bulldog. It fell out of usage in the 20th century but was still widely used and known in the 1930s-40s when it was coined in the US.
'W.O.' ... War Office ???? model 03
Those tabs on the stock are definitely for one handing. Love that the British always thought that was a good idea.
The tabs were for prone firing as well, perhaps primarily, especially with both extended.
@@spacewater7 I imagine that being called "the snake" because you are holding "two fangs".
i think americans tried this concept out in like the 50s or 60s, i believe the gun is called the hs10 and it was a shotgun intended for police to shoot from a moving car with one hand
@@blarpnarp yep, the HS10 was meant to be usable with one hand for things like opening doors or operating other equipment like flashlights or tear gas.
I remember spending an inordinate amount of time, pre you tube/internet, designing a useful smg for British army for WW2. Had something fairly similar to this designed. The advantage of magazine in the grip for intuitive loading appealed.
Eventually I came up with a design like the beretta 1918, but using lee Enfield stocks. I thought the Tokarev round would give better range.
Also accompanying this was WW2 tech body armour. Essentially a doron chest and back piece similar to modern rifle plates but only effective against shrapnel and pistol ammo.
I wonder if W O M G 3 was a design contract / specification (like F.5/34 was the design specification the RAF issued for what became the Hurricane and Spitfire). The National Archives mark War Office documents with a WO prefix, so it could be War Office Machine Gun [specification number] 3? That may explain why there aren't many and it isn't stamped with an official 'name'.
Jonathan... very nice, but any chance of seeing an EMC2? I am sure you have at least one in there!
I think i would call it a proto bulpup, gives me some ideas, might be bad ideas but ideas none the less😊
W.O.-M.G. clearly stands for:
War Ordnance - Ministry of Guns
03 stands for Oak Tree used for furniture among several other kinds of limber marked differently.
"war office" is much more likely.
@@FoodTrek fair enough
You are not far off. We believe it's "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
These videos are always a highlight of day
War Office - Machine Gun RFP 03
The pseudo hand position on the rear stock looks like it was intended to be used just like a rifle when bayonet training/fighting.
Would agree on the MG part if it were select fire, but it's semi only
I love how the Brit's came up with a whacky idea and said ,why not give it a go ! No one can say they didn't think outside the box and try new things.
Yeah all those EM2s are just distracting from any other content. Looks like you have plenty to spare... 🤗😍😎👌
I'm curious to know if the magazine is interchangeable or just similar. Johnathan didn't try stuffing it in the Beretta
I did, gingerly and off-camera :) It does fit, but it's tight...
@@jonathanferguson1211 tight fit it both then. Inconclusive :)
I absolutely love viewing these videos that present to me, new and unusual, rare prototype experimental small arms, well done and please keep up the good work.👍
Perhaps the folding stock stirrups are to help steady the aim while making those critical 500 yard shots with a 9mm.
/s, of course
12:19 comes with a phillips head screw driver attached, for disassembly and maintenance 😂
The "War Office" guesses are intuitive, but I think it's likely this was originally made for the little-known postwar counterespionage agency W.O.O.C.(P).
With that curious buttstock, I can't help but wonder if this was conceptualized as either an officer's or a grenadier's firearm. That way they could fire while manipulating an explosive or giving 1 handed directions
By the power of Grey skull! a rack of EM-2 and XL-60!
Are you intentionally winding up Ian McColm Jonathan!
The Beretta is a real beauty, which makes the Soley being such an ugly duckling so funny. It’s a shame that the SMG was such an afterthought for the UK in the immediate pre-war period.
I think you could just say a bullpup has the mag behind your thumb.
Interesting that they decided to make a compact version of the Beretta only for it to have the same overall length. Did they simply want one with a longer barrel without making a longer gun?
Would've been interesting to see a version that would've just been an Uzified Beretta.
so Soley (almost) bullpups a 9mm pistol cartridge weapon so they could make the barrel longer??? For what? 9mm can't really make use of the extra barrel...
I’ll say it again. Lousy lighting and the need for close ups is necessary. The dark cloth with shadows obscure details with the overhead shots. Which are too far away anyway. It’s so annoying because all the firearms presented are fascinating.
Obviously War Office. Presumably this is a prototype or proffer for procurement which entered a trial.
I take it everyone has noticed the rack of unicorn's behind Johnathan..... Of course it's normal for him!!😮
A million rounds of 9mm were captured off the Italians in the Middle East. This was likely an attempt to produce something to use it with minimal development. The Sten must have been a better one.
the allied forces vs axis powers turf war has esclated so the british drive by on the germans with the british uzi to get their turf back
It's like an m1 carbine had a baby with a Thompson but along the way was unfaithful with a PM-63
This is the third video that has annoyed/disappointed me with the camera work. Zoom ins are a few seconds late and the away shots are too distant. Tight shots are best. Fill the lens with Ferguson, we don't need a panoramic view after the briefest bit on introduction. Be sure the camera is focused on the guns in zoom shots, all too often the clearest bit is Mr Ferguson's face. It's a handsome face, of course, but the point of interest is the weapon feature he is holding up for inspection at that moment.
Very oddly, wierdly interesting. With proper development it had some promise.
Might I suggest Standard, Bullpup and 'pistol type' (I know there are lugers and some other pistols with weird 'standard' layouts - but...) as a breakdown to clearly distinguish things like this and the UZIs which are so clearly more 'machine pistol' in their grip than standard SMG or Bullpup types?
Some definitions of "bull pup" would include the Spencer and Evans rifles from the American Civil War and the period following it. (Magazine runs back to the butt-plate).
Not quite as the actions for the Spencer and Evans are ahead of the trigger.
is that like a significant percentage of the world's supply of EM-2's behind him?
That IS a bullpup, your definition is wrong, revise your book.
Sniper Elite devs: "WRITE THAT DOWN, WRITE THAT DOWN"
On my rifles I took off the butt pad & put a loop of stiff webbing . Have you ever seen that done ? It keeps the rifle shouldered .
Oh my, that is indeed cursed. Looks like someone got locked in the spare parts room with gin and benzedrine!
War office Machine gun (version/type ) 03 ? if im right do i get a curlywurly ?
"Buttless". According to my wife that makes me a bullpup 😭
Looking at the rack behind you and having your book at home, I'd kill to get a closer look at the EM's
That almost looks like you would hold it with your right hand at the stock and your left hand on pistol grip using your left hand to pull the trigger.
That look like UZI bad more klasik and ekstra barrels and bayonet charge fitur
With.Out - My.Gun and then the 03 is how long in seconds you survive without it ofc
Genius ambidextrous gun.
Robin Soley of R Soley and Sons 🤣
So that's just like L85 but with Beretta instead of AR-18.
Leeds Armoury : How many EM's do you need?
JF: ALL OF them!!
Other than the stock it doesn't actually look too bad.. That stock is ridiculous though.
WO-MG could be War Office Machine Gun?
Never thought i'd discribe a gun as "uncanny valley".
I've heard of pre ww2 SMG trials held in UK that were supposed to have been prequisite for possible SMG adaptation for the British military. I've heard a story that the Suomi m/31 got the best points in the trials against other available options for license build SMG, but the start of the ww2 prevented any new sales from Finland, and other priorities game alo g with UK weapons needs.
Do you happen to have any information of such a SMG trials held in UK at late part of 30's (1938-40?)?
There were never formal competitive trials held prior to WW2 but many designs were tested by the Ordnance Board.
In 1939, the BSA-Király, a British-made Hungarian design, was submitted and seemed to be a very good proposition in both quality and cost, but was rejected without much elaboration. Later they tested a Suomi KP/31 with a quadruple-column casket magazine and considered applying the same idea to the Bren gun, but nothing came of it.
Almost immediately after the war broke out, the BEF made an immediate request to the OB for a supply of SMGs for informal field trials. The Thompson, Steyr-Solothurn, Suomi, and Hyde were all sent. The Suomi was preferred but only the Thompson could be acquired at short notice, even though it was the most expensive option by some considerable margin (£50 per gun). In February 1940 the OB ordered 450 M1928AC Thompson guns which were issued to the BEF and used in action prior to the Fall of France.
@James Lawrence thank you for the answer, that's the information I was looking after 🫡
If thats the Model 2, I'm really curious what the Model 1 was.
The painful delivery made this vid twice as long as necessary.
W.O. - M.G 0.3 CAL 9m/m
MODEL 2
One can only assume that deep in the archives of Soley Armaments, now probably lost to time and a skip, there’s an explanation?
I am now convinced that my colleague here is correct with "War Office Master General of Ordnance [Dept] 3".
its like you gave someone from the time period a mac-11 or something an asked them to make something like it
Hate it when you get naff weapons when you start a game🤣
That abomination is ugly as sin. Almost cute really. I want one.
British guns are somehow consistently uglier than French ones.
uhh, so it got a longer barrel not for the ballistics but because they want to fit a bayonet on it?
I'd SOOO see this gun in Gloomwood, jeez...
it looks like something i would make in Blender while i was drunk XD
"Weird Object - Mystery Gun" of course!
Walter Owen SMG. A cousin of WO Bentley
it's odd looking but neat piece of history
Gotta give it to you, you do come up with some queer shit 👍 haha ✌️