The wonky Finnish submachine gun with firearms and weapons expert Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубликовано: 8 мар 2022
- You might recognise this wonky weapon from films and games. In reality only around 6000 were ever made and it was never adopted into service by any armed forces. This rare gun gives us a fascinating insight into one design that tried to solve the issue of recoil reducing accuracy.
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such a nice gun for 1823! well ahead of its time
Time traveller's bro...
what
@@404killer skip forward to 20 seconds and you'll understand.
(I know, it's a big ask to watch so much of a video)
Lmao 😂 that caught me off guard also I was like 🤨 😂
Is it possible the 1823 is the museum's ID number for it?
There's also an invisible variant of this weapon from the nineties, designed to be used in Tervasaaren Kesäteatteri.
It's right there on the table.
It's bit rusty tho if you take a good look at it. That's because it's been in bottom of the lake for so many times.
@@zarahandrahilde9554 I cannot see it
@@saberhap2639 The finns are masters of camouflage, but it's there, right next to the others.
Note to all foreigners: There was a Finnish comedy show in which a once-per-episode sketch was a really badly made theater act. The act always included one of the characters using a Jatimatic to shoot another and and after being arrested for this, they would throw the gun into a lake. (Invisible Jatimatic because there were no props or even specific costumes and the dude would just pretend to have a gun. This was a joke on really low cost plays.)
The concept of a museum "flexing" its collection is so funny to me
Make all the rival museums jealous
Strictly showing your collection is better is an effective tool at drawing in more visitors.
One of the biggest setbacks for Timari was that random thieves robbed his factory and took 22 Jatimatics AND the police officer investigating the crime had a personal grudge against him. The officer had as a teenager worked for Timari as a summer job, who gave a very bad review of him when he applied to National Bureau of Investigation and got a background check done on him. Timari considered the young man to be a traitor to the country when he had discovered him to be a leftist. When the officer lead investigation of the crime (how he wasn't taken out for a conflict of interest, I do not know), he insisted that the robbery was a mere coverup for Timari and his corporation selling guns directly to criminals and smuggling guns out of the country. ...Full disclosure though: This is the version of the story that Timari himself told. On the other hand, there were instances where Timari clearly did violate laws when he tried to ship the guns out of the country to market them and he had plans of selling the guns to war zones specifically. In the end, due to the legal problems and other scandals (some of the stolen Jatimatics were used in crime spree by a couple of crooks who did armed robberies for example) which ruined the reputation of the gun and Timari's company. Eventually the company was shut down.
I remember there also a rumor going around that the Goverment was going to discontinued National Bureau of Investigation for budget cuts and NBI needed "juicy catch" to justify their continuity. I am not sure how true this was, but it was a wide spread rumor.
It is a rather tragic story. There is a certain other Finnish gun-sphere personality with a known antipathy towards our police and government.
The police service clearly made the right decision then and dismissed Timari as an ultra right wing nutter. Just how on earth can a teenager be a "traitor"?
@@zoiders I don't know about that, chief.
@@Tunkkis Grow up.
In Finland this thing _is_ kind of a meme due to featuring (albeit by name only) heavily in a series of comedy skits in the 80s.
Also pretty well know gun thanks to the "Jatimatic robberies" in 1993.
I'll toss my Jatimatic into the lake!
Ackschually 90s
1990s actually if you talk about Vintiöt skit Tervasaaren kesäteatteri.
Why am I not surprised that Jonathan wears a Casio calculator watch. Legend!
The original Finnish "meme-gun" known also by finnish tv-series "Vintiöt" from 90's. Appears lot in sketches of "Tervasaaren Kesäteatteri"
Funnily enough, in Finnish, one word, "konepistooli", literally "machine pistol", is used for both machine pistol and submachine gun.
Thankfully we have different words for belt fed light machine gun (kevyt konekivääri) and magazine fed lmg (pikakivääri).
its also Maschinenpistole in German, which makes total sense, for its automatic (hence maschinen-) and in pistol cartridge (so -pistole);
I never understood the difference made between the terms machine pistol and submachine gun in English...
Same in Polish. "Pistolet maszynowy" is a name for a machine pistol, as well as a Submachine gun
@@peka2478 From what I gather, an SMG implies a stock and a longer barrel, while a machine pistol has a shorter barrel and is intended to be used without a stock, although one may be fitted.
@@DrakeKillah Konepistooli it is.
Jali Timari started to work on Jatimatic basically by accident. He was designing a pistol with similar design as jatimatic, and when he was test firing it, the pistol went full auto for some reason. Jali noticed that the recoil was pretty easy to handle so he started to work on the Jatimatic.
It's way easier to build full auto anything, designing a disconnector is a tricky mistress
The 9.00 notation is what the Finnish Defence Forces uses, probably where Timari got it from. For example the model designation for Glock 17 is "9.00 PIST 2008"
might be because Mosins used 7.62x53mm and the finnish RK-rifles use 7.62x39mm cartridges. Perhaps since everyone in the army calls the cartridge "7.62", they thought that people would realize easier that you're talking about a cartridge when it says "9.00" on the side of the gun. This is just my personal guess, I have no facts to back this claim.
@@TaikaMarkus Something like that, probably. We also used the 7,65×21 para, so a two decimal notation would follow the standard nicely.
As far as I know, Jatimatic design was based on a modified 9mm sports pistol, so this could also be a valid option for that.
@@vtimari It was a .22 pistol Jali also designed.
@@Tunkkis .22 pistol was the first of his pistols to use the angle between barrel and bolt, but jatimatic was actually developed based on further development of that: a 9x19 jati pistol, which never made it to mass production. This was actually a lucky mistake, as due to improper carburization the trigger mechanism failed and caused the gun to fire the clip empty instead of just one shot... during which he made the discovery of the stability of the construction when used to fire bursts. So, basically, before this fortunate mistake, there was no vision of making a machine pistol / SMG based on the idea.
One of these was wielded in Red Dawn by the Soviet Officer because they couldn't get ahold of a RAK PM63
8:30 I think the top cover was changed so that it is in the same line as the barrel. The Finnish armed forces pointed that the weird angle could hurt in instinctive aiming.
Ofcourse laser point downwards, if both point same point, you hit only 1m away. You could calculate how much bullet is dropped when it leaves barrel and speed is about same as sound speed in air.
I was so hoping Jonathan say "kaivan tämän Jatimaticin täältä" all finnish people should know where thats from :D
And toss it into a lake?
@@Tunkkis Over the Moomin Valley to Norway.
@@Tunkkis Into a pond you mean?
@@wildcardbitchesyeehaw8320 Or perhaps railsoad rails?
I had seen this submachine gun used in the 1980's movie "COBRA" staring Sylvester Stallone. It had a laser sight mounted on top. Along with a Colt 1911A1 with custom ivory grips and a few mk2 Pineapple style grenades during the last few gunfights towards the end.
Indeed. And I have never seen this gun again in 40 years since that movie. Edit: (24:36 min.)
You can also see it in Red dawn.
So, given the barrel was angled, how was that massive laser supposed to track the bore angle? I just checked out the movie poster and the two didn't seem that well aligned. I know it was just for a movie,... but, oh, I guess it was just for a movie : -)
don't forget the match he kept on his mouth through the whole movie, you know he's gonna eventually do something dramatic with that thing every time you see it, and he didn't disappoint at the near end of the movie, ......that scene with the big 'baddy' brings the word 'gunfire' to a new meaning.
Crime is a disease and I’m the cure!
That poster was in my bedroom for years.
Great movie.
It's good that the "FIRE" text is inside an arrow pointing to which direction you're supposed to fire the gun.
One of these guns appeared in the 1984 movie, "Red Dawn."
Also featured in "Cobra" with Stallone.
That patent blueprint actually looks just straight up like a bulky scifi gun. Now we know why they are bulky. Thank you mr Jatimatic. You were so far ahead of your time.
One additional game, it is featured in the strategy game WarGame: Red Dragon, in the Finno-Yugoslavic DLC where it is used by some finnish jäger units.
The secret special jatimatic jaeger unit.
In Red Dragon Jatimatic is used by Erikoisrajajääkäri (special border jägers) squad and normally Finnish border guard is under the Ministry of interior like the Police of Finland and apparently the police had some Jatimatics so It's quite a far-fetched scenario but maybe not completely impossible.
It looks like someone hired the AK-47 factory to make an MP5.
The Vaime suppressor actually worked pretty well on most all 9mm SMGs and was fitted to other pistols, notably the H&K P9s. The only bad thing was the length, and the surface treatment on the tube wore off pretty easily.
i liked that bit, i mean i'm not a gun nerd, but I am an american who just learned how a banned (and evidently rather simple) firearms mod that our democrats never shut up about works from a brit who's country mine rebelled against while smoking legal weed provided by those same democrats. this is such a weird timeline
@@Suiseisexy and just to keep things simple (?) the US applied heavy diplomatic pressure to the British government to reclassify cannabis as a Class B drug rather than the lower Class C it had been dropped to (against the wishes of the majority of British police forces and individual officers and British courts fed up with imprisoning otherwise law abiding folk for their choice of recreation) This was around 2012 when Britian held the Olympics (the US also tried its hardest to get the government to up penalties for anabolic steroid possession and supply but this failed) Our government followed these 'suggestions' and then shortly after the US started allowing Cannabis to be bought on prescription, with Cannabis retailers becoming increasingly common across the States. Yet Britian has kept the higher penalties for Cannabis and it still being unavailable on prescription.
@@Suiseisexy Interestingly in Finland, while guns are highly regulated, suppressors in turn are not and anyone can buy one even without a license. No idea about the reason but I guess it's because it in fact doesn't make you into a silent assassin but rather it mostly saves your hearing a bit and is a good thing to have and use when practicing.
@@Suiseisexy They're not banned in most of your states (42 of the 50 it's fully legal), and just requires you deal with the ATF paperwork as it needs a tax stamp.
I remember seeing a bin of cut up Jatimatics at Knob Creek in 1989. The red "flag" on the bolt spelling "FIRE" was something I'd never seen before or since.
Those were at Kent Lamonts table. Per our conversation ATF made him destroy the guns he imported over some issue. A few examples are in the USA .
@@fredlogan6159 #DefundTheATF
It's actually a rather clever idea, not the warning label but the ejection port cover itself. A problem with open bolt guns is that when they're in a ready to fire position the ejection port and magazine are fully exposed, so they're particularly vulnerable to dirt and other debris. Since a telescoping bolt design already requires putting more bolt mass in front of the breach face, adding a wall to cover the ejection port is clever, but also necessitates that "FIRE" flag since otherwise it would be hard to visually determine if the gun is ready to fire or not.
I really love the elegant mechanical simplicity of this weapon.
Aah yes, I just rewatched Cobra. This gun always gives me nostalgia to this wonderful B-Movie
Cobra is an aaa movie. 25 mil budget 160 mil box office, based on a book by an award winning author, with a screenplay by an award winning screenplay writer and an oscar nominee.
..ok its a cannon film. And the screenplay was made by stallone but it did pretty well, critics didn't like it but people did.
Known about this weapon from Stallone's Cobra and to me is one coolest machine pistols I've ever seen.
Jatimatic is almost exclusive intended to be used as hip firing gun so having laser sight on it is not a bad idea.
As a Finnish person I have to say these guns have been mostly a joke in Finland instead of something the army would use.
Those marketed as part of an army dont use these?
Ummm, this whole series IS a flex to show off the cool guns in the Royal Armouries collection!
Fiuuuuu plumpsis
(you need to be a finn of a certain age group to get this)
*Brrr* *brrrt* "oh who will sally spectre now share her woes with" "now you'll go to prison"
There. That should surely be enough context for anyone to get the joke.
Who wouldn't love the Tar Island Summer Theater?!
🙋♂️
Mitä menin tekemään, ammuin Lasse Mortensonin
I got to say I do love this series.
Just a quiet moment with Jonathan talking about firearms every week.
Jatimatic (1823) maybe a bit of a typo there
its also featured in wargame: red dragon's finland dlc as the weapon of the erikoisrajajääkärit, or special border jagers for the linguistically challenged.
Jonathan is one of the most entertaining people. The topic is interesting but could easily be boring. Jonathan makes these videos so fun to watch, and I have learned so much about guns I would have never known.
There is rumor that bunch of these can be found from bottom of many lakes in Finland.
plumpsista
The bolt reciprocates backwards at an upward angle, helping to tame muzzle rise.
In theory, not so much in practice.
So the reason for 9.00 is to increase accuracy. You see, we assume 9mm means exactly 9mm. But, when you notate the tens and hundreds are zeros, then you're for sure looking at something that's 9mm to the hundredths. And that's a lot of accuracy.
It's a highly accurate 9mm submachine gun.
Since it does not have shoulder stock or proper sights, it is hard to say is it accurate because you don't know what you aimed.
@@XtreeM_FaiL I fear that one went right over your head.
@@innoclarke7435 If it came from Jatimatic it ain't a surprise.
9.00 is FDF's standart naming system.
The gun is also in the game Jagged Alliance 2.
God I miss that game.
_"Can I throw my Jatimatic into the lake?"_
Thank you for the deeper dive, and the disassembly.You've made my day! Please do more vidz like this.
Surprised to hear him get into the inner functions with such detail. I thought they try to avoid doing that for RUclips on this channel.
Forgotten Weapons it ain't!
I remember this being in a Punisher Armory issue. They even made a “it looks like I dropped it” joke.
These videos are so pleasant you can either watch them and soak in every detail or turn them on to fall asleep. Thank you JF 😊
Jatimatic was used in the film Red Dawn (1984). Colonel Strelnikov (William Smith) actually wears the Jatimatic on a custom holster during his speech to the assembled Soviet and Cuban officers.
Needs more Suomi coffin magazine! 🔔 Loving all of these new videos, great presentation and insight as usual. Thanks Jonathan! 👍 Just don't get too busy doing all videos, as that might slow down progress on drafting up your next book... 😉 🙏
The prototype probably did have a ramp like shown in the patent, but I imagine they found it to be too aggressive and only needed to use the upward motion of the bolt in order to counteract muzzle climb.
I wonder if one issue with that design could have been the front protrusion wearing down too quickly
This used to be such a meme weapon in the late 80's, referenced in jokes in TV shows and consequently by little kids in school for years
With Jatimatic, it's about the addons. It's consealed weapon, witch you kind of assemple out of stuff in your pockets, like MacGyver and it becomes this bullet spreying high tech thing that ninjas cant evade. :D
I want to see that gold/ivory version!
Also, how good would it be just to be able to listen in to a conversation between Jonathon and Ian "Gun Jesus" McCullum as they wandered round the Royal Armouries?
And who else wants their barrel at a "jaunty angle"?
Thanks Jonathan and team, that was really interesting. it would be interesting to see high speed video of one being fired, to see how effective the novel angled design is at reducing muzzle flip.
Judging from this clip : ruclips.net/video/R6bCI0iT-UA/видео.html it seems reasonably controllable in full auto.
@@juslitor Not just reasonably controllable, that looks full-on Hollywood controllable!
It is amazing to shoot. There is almost no barrel rise on full auto. It feels strange to operate it at fist, but you quickly get hang of it and then it feel so natural. It is like pointing you finger and it effortlessly dumps whole mag there. Without you having to fight the recoil.
Have a look here at Forgotten Weapons for another disassembly video.
ruclips.net/video/xEeEfsY_RBw/видео.html
And here for the gun at the range.
ruclips.net/video/vFqaPdRaT9k/видео.html
9 is not the same as 9.00, the latter has a much higher degree of accuracy. If you machine a hole for instance, there is a substantial difference between making it 9 mm, or making it 9.00 mm.
That's a very interesting design as far as the bolt travel is concerned. I imagine that the type with the hump under the forward part of the bolt does a better job of taming muzzle rise. Too bad you didn't fire it, I would have loved to see it in action.
Interesting, how much I spot there from Sa 26 Czechoslovak subgun... not only the progressive trigger but also the fact that the bolt covers the ejection port when cocked as well as released. The ejection port only appears when the bolt travels.... nice gun indeed!
Great channel, just found it! Great review/history/presentation too but I would love to see the overhead camera lowered or zoomed in quite a bit, the disassembly and internal parts aren't that easy to see for me at least. Cheers!
"Gun is not wonky.
Shooter is just too sober."
-Finnish officers, probably
The story is that Timari was attempting to create a pistol, but while testing it fired full-automatic. So, naturally he changed his plans.
Famously wielded by Sylvester Stallone in Cobra!
Cool weapon thank you!
Yes, the Norinco gun is "unfinnished"...
This is so interesting. Thanks Jonathan. I would love to see a history of the TMP. Something I haven't seen yet.
"Componentry". I'm stealing that word for personal use.
Six thousand ?
Back in the day news reporting indicated that the original production run was closer to 60, before the company was closed under "mysterious circumstances".
OH MY GOD THE PUMP ACTION SMG FROM SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG
I was wondering if you have Jatimatic in your collection. Glad to see you do
The way I can tell that this didn't make it to the mid-2000s is the lack of rails on the top cover.
Suomi KP31 magazines also fit in the Jati Matic.
I dreamt of willy wonky and the gun factory because of this gun.
Yup, I remember that from the small arms atlas I got when I was 12. Never seen one IRL though, witnessed most all WW2 automatic weapons fired. Interesting!
'Rakish and Jaunty' used in conjunction and in a firearms video; I
I admit it, I'd love to spend a day visiting the archives. They're only down the road from me and I still remember the talk Jonathan did for Aliens for the LIFF (showing off a couple of the m41a pulse rifle props)
Bro....do it. Do it now 😜
Razorenov and Khaidurov designed a famous .22LR target gun with that principle of a bolt at an angle. It is now the Fienwerkbau AW93.
The ''Yattamatic''?
Nobody told me that for her neutral special, Herrscher of Sentience wields a gun.
I had my eye on this gun ever since I read my first gun encyclopaedia when I was less than 10 years old.
So, some one finally fished it up from that lake
I would absolutely *love* to have this job! Firearms and history are two of my biggest loves, and this seems like the perfect marriage.
I don't think I'd want my hand that close to the muzzle on that foregrip.
That barrel angle is playing merry hell with my OCD I can tell you! Fascinating weapon though
So the patent of the Jati was after the patent of the MAT 48 expired which also had an angled bolt for the same reason .
0:43 there was me thinking that it went into production in 1823 as per the description 20 seconds earlier!
Very informative!!
Suppressor was made by company called Vaime which also means suppressor.
I've seen a picture of one of these with a top folding stock, looks like it would be adequate enough for helping with shooting, but apparently it engages into a small tab on the top-cover, so the stock isn't particularly robust.
I know also that there is a few ones in the US registered as post-sample machineguns (I thought there were transferables, but there may actually be none). I never knew there was a Chinese clone of these, however, very surprised by that.
This gun also had a cameo appearance in the original movie " RED DAWN" ......:)
I recognize it from the movie Cobra. He had a laser sighter that was almost as big as the gun itself
The original laser sights were all huge. They had one for the Mini-14 that held the equally huge batteries in the stock. I remember wanting a laser badly until I realized they weren't really that useful except in unique circumstances.
Rewatched Cobra recently with my partner. What an insane film. I keep threatening to cut up pizza with scissors.
It was also in Red Dawn
@@jackspence6061 I like how he manages his parking spot too! "whachu gon' do!!"
For a failed automatic gun, the number produced actually sounds pretty darn high.
The gun did not fail. It is the politics, sales & marketing which failed. The flaw with end block attachment would have been easily fixed if production & development had continued. Saying it is great gun to shoot is understatement of the year.
@@michaelholopainen2822 A product that doesn't sell is a failed product, no matter how good it is.
@@wildcardbitchesyeehaw8320 Finland in the 80s was nothing like USA, for example, regarding freedom to do business. Consider yourself having a private business with great gun product and many people all over the world want it. But politics & law decide for you that you cannot export it. You are left with local markets, so you try to sell it to police and military, but they are only allowed to deal with government owned businesses, not the private ones such as yours. And regarding automatic weapons, it's next to impossible for a private person to get a license for one... it really means that the market is pretty much shut down for you, no matter how good salesmen and marketing people you hire and how good or desired your product might be.
@@vtimari yeah and that's exactly why i'm surprised they manufactured so many, since there obviously wasn't a proper market for a gun like it
Curious to see how well the concept actually worked to reduce muzzle climb. I'm guessing the lack of a stock didn't help adoption.
Jali ones told that this recoil control design was born by accident. He was designing .22LR competition pistol. While testing a prototype, trigger mechanism failed and fired whole magazine like full automatic... into small tiny group.
I had an army buddy back in 1989 who had been in commando training. He claimed they got to test those and according to him "it did not kick at all".
Comparison here would be the Valmet assault rifle, which does jump a bit.
Anyway, Finnish gun magazine "Ase&erä" featured this in 80's. What I remember, their tests suggested that recoil dampening worked for 2-handed hold. Shooting with one hand only was doable but more tricky.
I always wondered about that gun in Red Dawn. I never knew if it was a WZ63 or a Jatimatic, but assumed it had to be the former..
"we have four... This isn't a flex to show off how many jatimatics we have"
You sure about that?
Yes, finally, Red Dawn (1984) was mentioned!
Hey Jonathan, Can you do a review on the R9-Arms Machine Pistol? The factory made "ghost gun", believed to be manufactured in Croatia.
The ramp projecting downward from the bolt would be a mechanical delay, I think... SO maybe the delay proved not easy to get working? Having the recoil spring push slightly upward on the back, isn't the same as pushing downward on the front. Well, it could do, but I doubt it works. Have you shot ne of these to see if the recoil cancelation works at all???
Intermission. Coffee and buns.
I might be wrong but i think the folding charging handle/foregrip also acts as a safety when folded up/closed as it blocks the bolt from moving forward hence no manual safety switch. Sorry if i missed this in the video/or i'm just wrong about the foregrip.
Love the red dawn cobra!
There's footage of a guy couple a few rounds through his hands when he was using to push pull method and the forgrip broke and I'm sure that's not the only time it's ever happened
you need to cut to b-roll close-ups of the parts of the weapon as he's talking about them
Hey i remember this, that one Special Purpose Weapons video.
Content is great! Interesting and factual explanation !
One question ,How do you get real time satellite images indoors when you do the dissembly? Google Earth? Hubble telescope or some MI-6 satellite?
I believe that a version of this firearm is in the earlier version of " Woverins" towards end of movie.
Sorry " Red Dawn"
I see you use wireleaa mic and end product is OK. Nice to hear :)
Seems like a decent weapon, though a more sturdy front grip/charging handle would be nice.
Jatimatic from Red Dawn!!! :)
And Cobra!