I've always hated phone calls except for instances where immediate attention is required. Text messages and emails are much preferred because I don't have to stop what I'm doing the moment they're received. I also have a record of what was said so I don't forget and can look back on it later.
Absolutely detest voice calls- and am annoyed by voice mail too. I always think it’s just a symptom of people too lazy to compose a text or email- which probably isn’t fair. On the phone, it’s live and I have to respond immediately but via text, I can consider and refine my answer for a moment first.
I detest phone calls too, unless it is with a friend and we have arranged a time so I can expect the call (or make the call) and I have dedicated time to commit to speaking. Otherwise, my phone is on silent ring pretty much all the time.
Same for me... but oddly enough it's not as hard with in-person conversation, maybe because we usually have time to prepare before talking unlike on the phone where it's imposed to us in surprise, especially since the age of cell phone and people expecting since you have a cell phone, you should be available all the time.
it is sheer mediocrity, people who cannot mobilize their attention for reading, who cannot concentrate enough to write something intelligible. But, that are "smart" enough to prefer not to engage by not writing :-) Those little unprofessional and uneducated bastards. Probably they had dumb and weak parents they could manipulate and boss around easily.
It's difficult to get people to understand that for all of these reasons, and more, being around people is exhausting to me. I'm told people rarely have issues with my masking abilities, assuming I'm neurotypical most of the time, but man does it take energy to keep that façade up all day at work, etc.
Then work on not putting up any facade at all. Practice making your interactions with people as simple, honest, and free of colorful embellishments as possible. This is what I started doing and it made all the difference in the world. I changed my social reward system to where I feel rewarded by social interactions that stay nice and simple and honest. And it's those nice, simple, honest, and authentic interactions that people end up really appreciating about me, and it's now what I appreciate about myself.
@Marty's 4x4 I could understand the need for video conferencing during the first few months of COVID, but it seems so silly now. Had no idea people were still doing that.... lol
That’s interesting. I agree that they are overwhelming, but I prefer multiparty Zoom meetings over telephone calls. The biggest problem I have is knowing when it’s my turn to speak. Also, sometimes that hesitancy invites additional comment from the other side which makes me talk over them. It’s very frustrating.
I felt so much joy and relief when pizza places started using apps. When Domino's first started taking orders on their website, it became my primary pizza place despite being one of my least favorite pizzas 😆 Thankfully, every place has apps now, I don't even need to place orders at the speaker anymore, I can figure out my order without the stress of knowing someone is waiting on me. The tons of free food from rewards points doesn't hurt as well :)
@@peterbelanger4094 I'm gen x, and I have no idea how anyone could hate anything that just makes life easier. Do I have to try to get my order right at the speaker anymore? Nope, I can get it just like I want it and just tell them my name. And I get free food points just for using the app. Why would anyone want to wait in a long line to order their food, where is the joy in that? Even theaters are better, I can buy my ticket, pick my seat, and order my food before I even get there. It's so simple now, just walk in, go to the counter and grab my popcorn and drink, then walk to my seat. Why would you consider this a bad thing, do you like standing in absurdly long lines and miss the start of your movie as you stumble around looking for a seat? Am I just missing something here?
@@peterbelanger4094 How have they made things worse? The world sucks because your generation made it terrible for anyone after you, don't go blaming people who had no power in the world when you made it terrible.
I TOTALLY understand you, same with me! Even the thought of calling a pizza provider with all that noise in the background and strong italian accent (I'm in germany) makes me frightened. It's such a relief since I have learned it's not a personal "error" but something that's not thaaat infrequent. So thanks!
Not diagnosing anyone, but telephobia (irrational fear/avoidance of phonecalls) is a part of social anxiety disorder (SAD). A lot of autistics have some form of an anxiety disorder. It's gotta be pretty bad though.
As being officially "a little bit of autistic" too, I agree with Dave: calling someone for anything, no matter how trivial, is an absolute nightmare. And guess what, that was the number one communication at work... :-( They simply didn't understand that even making trivial phone calls is an absolute nightmare for me. And hence I postpone that as long as I can.... and get more and more anxious about it the longer it got postponed. + I'm very bad at the impromptu reactions people expect you to make, especially over phone calls. Hence why I love email over everything else too. Also (in my case at least): it is not so much that body language queues or facial expressions are not seen or not understood (though, probably less than 'normal'), but more about not knowing the appropriate way to react to them and/or expressing the thoughts and feelings I have in a concise manner.
Boom! This video blew my mind ! My sister in law is autistic. She lives in a house which seems to meet her needs pretty well. But, even when I am sitting in front of her, I feel I am missing a lot of her communication! We have never used the phone in over 20 years, because it is a nonstarter. She won't hang on to it! So I have resigned myself to having to drive 25 minutes to see her. Eventually I get an impression of her concerns (the railroad trains are too loud or scary or the snow is too dangerous or maybe she is sad because another of her relatives has died). Not a clue why she always, always has to have the car radio on to her "only" station which is 33% advertising and 75% obnoxious!
Thanks, this was good to help me understand the difference between autism and anxiety when it comes to phone calls. I'm definitely in the anxiety camp, just trying to remember what I need to say rather than worrying about social cues, or that's how I used to be when it was more of an issue for me.
I know these feelings well. I was diagnosed with ADD as a kid in the 80's (back when ADD and ADHD were considered distinct). The symptoms have both persisted and changed over my lifetime, and today I believe the reality is that I'm somwhere on the light Autism spectrum. Adam Ragusea occasionally mentions in his videos, a similar phenomenon, where the longer he puts off a phone call (especially a return call, or even other forms of reaching out), the more irrationally afraid and the less likely he is to do so, effectively ghosting people out of an overabundance of social fear. I did not know that was a thing other people besides me ever experienced until then.
Interesting; I was diagnosed with ADD as a kid but I've never had a problem speaking on the phone. However, I am really good at procrastinating. I've found setting calendar events the moment I notice a task needs doing is what works. Rarely do I pounce on a task, but being gently nagged by my calendar the following afternoon feels easy.
Makes me feel a little better knowing that I am not the only person that feels this way about such a simple device as a phone. Funny enough I have not always felt this way but by adult hood I have became very irrational when it comes to taking or especially making a phone call.
@@D3M3NT3Dstrang3r I suppose we're all enabled by the proliferation of text based communication. The combination of email and text/messaging all but eliminates the need for most phone calls.
@MarcBerm ADD and ASD have a lot of cross-over symptoms. This leads a lot of autism advice being useful for ADD, and vice versa. If the advice helps, use it! This doesn't mean you have both, but it doesn't mean you don't. For me, I have ADD, but my issues with talking on the phone are an ADD related audio processing disorder, where noise in a room makes it extremely difficult to understand what the person next to me is saying. This causes a lot of anxiety and "what?" which others find rude and feel I am not being attentive (which I might not be!), so there is a lot of anxiety around phone calls. My solution has been a noise cancelling headset and a quiet room, I still have my difficulties and the solution is expensive, but it makes phone calls tolerable. Thank you for sharing your experiences
Thanks for sharing. My granddaughter is autistic, and not just a little bit. Her mind works remarkably well and she really enjoys solving puzzles, or learning a new device or 'gadget' such as a smart phone or tablet. Talking is another story - she doesn't. Most 3 year old girls talk incessantly, at least our other granddaughters (5) talk non-stop about almost anything. Your channel is a great help to me in understanding what is going on. I truly appreciate you sharing your experiences. Happy New Year!
My olderst daughter was also a quiet one, she's 25 now and leads a fairly secluded life by herself, so I think she got a few of my autistic genes. She hasn't been officially tested, neither has my other daughter, who is much more social anyways.
I feel this! Ironically enough, I work in the telecommunications field, I am a phone collector and member of "CNet: The collector's network" and volunteer at the telephone museum. Despite this, it really does amaze me how much I actually hate talking on the thing.
I have a 1970's vintage red Bell wall phone, but it's hooked up to Google Voice these days. It looks so beautiful on the wall, just hanging there and never being used 😆
Im funny i always hated texts or emails they take to long. A 5 min conversation with someone could save days of back and forward. I hate the calling but i found that getting it done quickly is often better then being annoyed over texts. As i find it much more difficult to understand and read emotions then hearing it. I am dyslexic(however you spell that) so that might be the main cause for me. I love the office365 editor feature eventho it suggest man-hours to be people-hours.
I absolutely understand; currently get extreme discomfort when knowing or going to talk on the phone. Whenever I do, I get extreme anxiety; to the point where my heart starts racing as well as racing thoughts, etc. It is absolutely heartwarming to see someone like me to this extent.
Read the book last month. Excellent speedy read, full of interesting facts and observations. Strongly recommended if you're curious about autism for any reason. Prompted me to get myself tested, but of course right now health resources are a little stretched. I asked my family if I'd been checked as a child - they said it was a different time back then (I'm 53) and they just assumed I was a difficult, intolerant child. My sister, who was a teacher for many years, working occasionally with special needs kids, suspected that I was somewhere on the spectrum. I found myself nodding regularly through the book. It was heart-warming in a way (oh! that's why I do/feel that.) but also a little upsetting - all those years of not fitting in and not knowing why. Anyway, that's more than enough of this sort of thing. As you were.
I hate phones too. It feels like an intrusion on my day. Also digital phones suck for conversations. They feel more like walkie-talkies vs the natural conversations you could have on analog lines.
I (as a little bit autistic too) have mixed feelings about telephone conversations. The thing I hate the most about phone and often other voice communication is bad sound quality. Talking when you don't understand the other person or they can't understand you is infuriating. I hate repeating myself, I hate when I have to ask the other person to repeat something over and over again because I just couldn't hear it properly. Then a phone can be also my weapon of choice. The useful thing is it creates pressure. Pressure to respond to questions. You send an email or text - you may or may not get an answer in an undefined future. When you ask over the phone - it's usually now or never. It works both sides, but I know if it's about business - I always reply "I need to think it over, I'll contact you soon". When they say something like "take it or leave it" my answer is usually just "no". I don't call to manipulate people. I call to get simple answers, like is my case processed yet, or what I have to do to finish processing my case. Also, talking to a stranger over the phone sometimes gives valuable clues about the person. Sometimes they are misleading though.
YES. Having to ask an old friend to repeat themselves (when we just never had to develop that protocol when younger) is awful, and I'm fairly convinced sound quality has never recovered since the move to mobile. Land lines were never *great* but there was a tolerable lower limit on handset and line quality. Using Zoom without video _feels_ clearer.
@@mr7clay But the latency is a killer. You can get by on a 1:1 call, but man... web meetings with more than 3 people are just a successful communications failure. It's either pandamonium, or a broadcast platform for one person. I'm always the one waiting for a turn that never comes.
Poor sound quality also exacerbates the social cue issues for autistic people as well. Overall, voice chat of any kind is just an objectively inferior medium for conversation. Text, on the other hand, is still missing those social cues but has other benefits such as time-centric social cues not actually mattering. (Plus there's plenty of people who go out of their way to format or word their textual communications to help communication those missing social cues as well.)
I hate phones. My parents talk so loud I have to hold my phone far away from my head. Texting is easier for me even tho I am terrible at spelling. I am some how ok with discord vc if there is only one person.
This resonates so much for myself. My other most disliked situation is large groups as I struggle to pickup the correct social cues when overwhelmed with them across so many people. I also want to wait to be invited to talk about a subject similar I think to how you've talked about in interviews. More formally structured items like meetings especially remote I find better as often they have more established rules that can be followed.
I blame Sesame Street for my hatred of phones. As a tiny tot with an ear blockage, I had tubes in my ears. (Twice, actually.) And the same day I had them taken out, just as I was trying to cope with how deafeningly loud a flushing toilet now was, my parents tried to soothe me by turning on the tele. Sesame Street just so happened to run that bit with the really loud telephone ringing and the creepy alien puppets trying to ring back at it. On the first day I could hear normally as a toddler. Scared me so badly that it scarred me for life!!! Every time I even look at or touch a phone, dread fills me, decades later. I've forced myself to use them, but I hate it. It's like swimming in a pool of jello while serenaded by nails on a chalkboard. It can be done, but it takes an act of will and an acceptance of grave discomfort. It also bothers me that people sound different on a phone. I know what they sound like in person. Even today, phones aren't a perfect match. If anything, it has gotten worse with cellphones. Why is that? It's very weird that we can't get simple voice communication to sound right. But from a business perspective, phone calls suck. As a software engineer, I want it in writing. If I need to re-examine or remind myself, the words are there in an email. Phone calls however are memory only, and let's face it, the squishy stuff between the ears is faulty at recollection. Plus, if the specs have changed, I have proof! LOL So IMHO, for business purposes, phone conversations suck. Spitballing maybe, fine, but put it in writing at some point before we agree to proceed on anything. But now I also wonder, is my continued hatred and unease with phones purely Sesame Street's fault, or am I also somewhere on the spectrum?
The things you describe remind me of me 15 years ago. I'm only 38 but I feel like I've made a lot of progress in my life. I think the best way to make progress is to stop using disorders as a crutch and to put yourself out there in situations you might me uncomfortable with. Sounds like a cliché but I was diagnosed very late so to me all these quirks were just things I had to deal with. I couldn't define them with a simple diagnosis.
OMG Dave!! I have hated phone conversations MY WHOLE LIFE! So totally relate to you and this vid! Thanks for helping me validate that I"m not alone in this struggle!
@@tangiblewaves3581 I wonder how many of you are critical thinkers, saw through the whole convid thing, didn't take the EXPERIMENTAL injections? Like with using a telephone to communicate with another human, it's not a natural thing to do and maybe the brainwashing/advertising of such just didn't work on us??
Thanks so much Dave for this episode! I can relate 1000% to this; and it's a big relief to know now, since a short time (I'm 58), it's not a personal fault... And great you mention how it worked for you at Microsoft; it'd be a nightmare for me, having to make many phone calls each day. And your channel is totally awesome! I grew up with machine -coded 6502 computers, then ZX81, Atari ST to Windows, and getting this view behind the curtains is pure gold! 🏅🏅
These last few years I’ve taken it upon myself to start learning those body language cues and try to get a better sense of what the person is thinking rather than solely analysing their words. This is an excellent little summary of some of these aspects. I’ve even noticed other autistic people getting hesitant in speech, and suggest that they want me to leave that topic alone, before they’re even aware that’s what they want.
Wow, you described my entire relationship with telephones. At 55 years old, I still don't really like going to an office, for example, to meet with someone to accomplish something. BUT I'd much, much rather go and do that face-to-face than call them on the telephone to get the same thing done.
I think an explanation for the paradox is that we NEED all those extra cues to keep up, where as a normal person, who is better at reading the cues doesn't NEED them in the same way. So when any of it goes missing for us, we're severely hampered, where as a normal person didn't need all of the cues in the first place and so didn't lose much when those go missing.
It's different these days because when I was a kid, the phones all had carbon microphones so you didn't have to worry about verbal queues because you couldn't really hear them. That made it easy to just talk. Then and throughout most of my life I avoided phone calls because I've always prioritized whatever I was doing at whichever time that any phone call rudely interrupted me. Decades went buy but one day I became curious to understand why some people were sociable and/or liked talking on the phone. I tried being sociable and not caring so much about the things that distracted me from engaging with other people. I decided it would be interesting to become curious about other people in an emotional sort of way and be less wrapped up in the tasks I was always trying to accomplish. After doing this for a while, BANG! I found that there was a threshold of daily human interaction, beyond which something suddenly shifted mentally and I was able to effortlessly converse (even on the phone) and inter-operate. By dropping below that threshold of daily interaction, it would become more difficult again. I discovered, among many things, the difference between the problem solving methodologies of introverts vs extroverts, and "automatic" social interaction can be when on auto-pilot without the deliberate cerebral engagement of concentrating on technical tasks of all sorts. In the end I went back to my old ways because that's my preference, but the experiences did leave me with greatly increased tolerance for being interrupted by other people and phone calls and that sort of thing. I now particularly enjoy observing my own internal feelings and reactions as I come into contact with people in various ways and I must say that while I've developed a tremendous amount of contempt for the human species, I have at the same time become equally more curious and so it has all balance out, to the point that I just don't care any more ...but in the best way possible.
I... I relate so hard i actually cried when i saw the thumbnail. Ive been watching you for a while and youre becoming a big inspiration. I am pretty autistic, add and all. I hate the phone, my dad always told me i was odd and need to just get used to it, which to an extent i do buts Its never really changed, to the point where I've put off making calls to my gp for health issues while at uni. Its honestly really hard. I instantly deny calls, unless they are in my phone book. My work is not included and I even deny job interview offers and have to call back when I realise, maybe not the best first impression idk. Thank you for making this, cause i can send this to my dad to help him understand.
I'm the same as you, and was shamed for this when I was younger... what's worse is I was unable to properly articulate _why_ I was adverse to phone calls. I had to psych myself up sometimes for a half-hour or more to make a call, or if I knew an important call was coming in. I really thought it was just my personal problem, so I appreciate you sharing about your experience.
Same here brother :). And then I took on a job as an account-manager where I had to go to people in person (which I didn't always know beforehand) to tell them about our great product. I had no idea about any spectrum or disorder and I wanted to get ahead in my career (whatever that might have turned out to be). After about a year of struggles and the odd awkward moment, I got the hang of it and had truly convinced myself that they are just people like you and me and are not out to make my life as difficult as possible because that's not in their own interest. Still, having to explain why the support department had not called them back yet was never fun, regardless.
It's so easy to relate to the video and the comments I've read. In addition to all of that, I also suffer with tinnitus and damaged hearing. Overlay bandwidth limitation and compression algorithms, which are routinely used in most phone transmission infrastructure nowadays, and it's no surprise that I find it profoundly difficult even to make-out the words being said. I think that's a whole extra layer of reasons why I really hate phone calls!
Hi Dave! What you have described in this video is me to tee. My phone is just a glorified calculator and a place where I keep component datasheets for convenience. I despise making or taking phone calls. I'll push forward making important calls until it's too late and usually it causes mayhem leading to more important calls needing to be made. Friends and family think I just don't want anything to do with them. I've given up trying to explain myself and feel that they think I'm just making excuses. The only way I can express myself adequately is through programming, electronic circuits and playing the guitar. To add insult to injury, medical professionals think they can 'cure' people like us using ritalin. Leads me to wonder if they'll come up with a 'cure' for the NT's.....but there's no cure for stupidity and ignorance. Thanks for posting....will be checking out your second channel. Happy new year btw!
Reminds me of taking an IT cert class via zoom during covid. I had more experience than anyone but the instructor so I naturally had more to input into discussions. When we started out with 8 people and only a couple active participants I was fine. Then it became 20-25 people. I'd want to highlight the importance of a point made or provide an example but it seemed like I needed everyone else to supernaturally realize I wanted to say something and pause their back and forth discussion for me to try to comment. I attempted to use the "raise hand" feature but it usually took until my point was no longer relevant. Then there was a phase where a few people noticed my issue and would watch for the hand and invite my input. Finally the instructor told me to just feel free to interrupt because some topics I had more experience and he was just reading the book. It was very frustrating. I don't know how people deal with virtual classes. I have never considered myself to be on the spectrum or anything. I just prefer to minimize my interactions and blame it on 20 years of driving a truck and losing what little people skills I ever had.
My wife has often 'joked' that she thinks I'm on the spectrum. Whatevs'. then I came across this channel....and the more you talk about certain things, the more I relate. I did that online test you linked some time back and scored 33 and figured whatev's. My wife did it and got 15. Since then you keep saying stuff that has me 'yeah, me too'. I'm not sure it's worth getting formally tested - not gonna change anything either way - 'cept maybe give a great excuse to get out of social functions. I don't like the telephone and much prefer email or other written messaging if face to face walk up isn't possible. I don't _mind_ teams/zoom too much since if it's a small group it'll be cameras on - if it's a large group then it becomes a 'live youtube' cos no ways am I saying anything. Keep up the good work - this channel has really opened my eyes and mind, as well as having fascinating tech info :)
Finally found someone like me, I always struggle to make a phone call with new people, it takes about 5-10 times to feel more comfortable in the conversation. using email gives me more confident. Thanks Dave!
I get this feeling entirely. I'm absolutely able to hold a call, but I utterly dread it and will be constantly trying to read the other party (or worse, parties!). Especially "fun" if someone calls out of the blue and I've had no time to think through beforehand. Ugh!
I've always disliked the telephone (even though I was once a telphone engineer!) and - SFAIK - for no reason other than I regard it as a "rude" device. It says "Stop what you're doing and talk to me NOW". In my office days I would always make a point of ignoring (or muting) a ringing phone if someone had taken the trouble to visit me at my desk and we were talking. I define email (and to a lesser extent, texting) as a "Means of significant communication without the need for simultaneous availability of the participants". And to me that says it all - it's a far better means of communication for anything that is not truly urgent to all participants. Phone call volumes are a fraction of what they once were, so it seems like the world - by and large - agrees with my definition. In my experience it's older people who never lost the habit, or younger technophobes who are now the ones who mainly make voice calls.
I thought I was going to watch a video about the technical side of phones :p A great and unexpected video, thanks mate! I had no idea you had another Chanel. I'll be there shortly.
I too, hate talking on the phone. My email at the office at the signature even says "prefer contact by Email" . To quantify that, I'm an electronics / electrical engineer with 30 years experience. I design from, whole complex automated machines including there mechanical and electrical systems and there operating software, to PCB's with everything from embeded systems to basic TTL logic and analog. I can component level repair electronics etc. But talking on a phone is just an interruption to my thought processes, which seem to always be going. Being in the position I'm in I get a lot of "Sales calls" etc and this is very, very irritating to me. I especially look at call coming in as " having to deal with it on their time frame and not on mine". I also dislike calling because I dislike confrontation as calling some one back generally requires. I have a philosophy of "The phone works me, I don't work for the phone." An email allows me to do all the above on my time and have less confrontation.
Thanks for this Dave. I think part of the speaking on the phone issue is the processing pauses. A split second delay which might be masked by none verbal signals in a face to face conversation, stands out where there is nothing to fill the pause. TED talk "The science of analyzing conversations, second by second" by Elizabeth Stokoe (example at approx 6mins) gives an interesting insight into how pauses affect the conversation.
Truly find Dave, his discussions and book helpful. Not sure where I fall on the spectrum however someone like Dave explaining the sensory topic from his perspective is priceless to me.
I also discovered from your channel that I too need visual stimuli and thrive on it. I have 12 screens and a whole lot of RGB pixels in my main workshop. WLED is such a godsend!
I tend to say that I have the opposite of autism. I can not carry a text or email conversation without upsetting somebody because I constantly look for inferences that text doesn't supply. I have no issue in person because I can tell if they have lost interest in what I'm saying, or something similar. I need that vocal inflection and, preferably, body language. I also get annoyed when I'm texting with somebody and the conversation goes on for 10 minutes talking about something that should have taken 30 seconds if they had just called me. Makes life fun since my wife was diagnosed with Asbergers back when that was a diagnosis. So its something I have to keep in mind.
Thanks for the frank talk. 8 enjoy all your tech videos because they oncropocs that interest me -- from the newest esp32 stuff back to 8008's and the v8sible elements that glued those 8 bits together. The more personal ones, like this on the telephone are also very welcome and valuable. Keep8ng it simple, friendly, helpful, and without fear. This country hardly recognizes mental health concerns in public, and in private provides very few services to most people. Normalizing diversity, without panic, is much appreciated.
I have level 1. plus ADHD, inattentive type. I don't hate the phone per se, but if I am having a bad day and the phone rings, I dread picking it up. What if it's a bad conversation? 🤐...It can even make me feel nauceous sometimes. Yet I do answer the phone in most cases, it's just the proper thing to do and it does prevent more problems in the future. Over the years practise has made me better at it. It's just one of those things that has to be done. Not too keen on calling people either, I tend to keep that to a minimum too, only what is strictly necessary.
I was never diagnosed when I was younger but I'm 110% I had ADHD as a kid, cause I struggle to this day with the inattentive stuff. Like I'm spot on as far as general symptoms into adulthood. But when my phone rings, I literally can't pick it up. If I don't at least know who it is, that thing will ring and if it's important, I hope they leave a voicemail and a callback number. My cellphone is a bit better cause of caller-id. But man not answering the phone has bitten me so many times in the past. Yet I just can't overcome the uneasiness.
When I was in the USAF I was lived off-base in Japan where, at for a time (1979-81), it was too expensive for a GI to have an phone in their off-base house. Two years, no phone in the house (and of course, no cell phones then lol). I loved it! There was a phone booth about a quarter-mile up the road, if you just had to make a call. Two years, no phone in the house (and of course, no cell phones then lol). The downside was that I was a telecomm specialist and spend most of my days/night on duty talking/testing communications lines! Making a call to loved ones back in the states was EXTREMELY expensive, but as a telecomm guy I had access to free calls, but still, I rarely made them. I was there for four years in total. Could count the call I made on two hands.
Yep that’s me to a tee. I was so happy when the Web took off and you could actually get stuff done without talking to someone. Likewise ordering food - the ability to order online is such a relief. We have a Chinese takeaway near us that is the best in the area - telephone orders only. They don’t get my business unfortunately. Thanks for the video - nice to be part of a neuro-diverse group!
I love your book and can't wait for the sequel! My eldest son was diagnosed post-college with Asperger's and has great difficulty using the telephone, but he does quite well communicating with his friends while playing on-line games (and sometimes wakes us up in the middle of the night while talking to or laughing with his friends, because he also has trouble realizing the volume of his own voice!). I always wondered if it was easier for him in that context because he doesn't see them as they really are; instead, he seems to create avatars of his friends from the characters in the game and deal with them on that level, whereas he struggles to communicate with them face-to-face. It is amazing to me how much easier it is for him while on-line. But if you put him on a skype or zoom call, unless the subject is gaming, he has issues understanding and making himself understood.
A lot of it might be that gaming tends to have structured conversation - you're communicating information to team mates, usually in a fairly abbreviated fashion. All the social niceties that we normally struggle with are left aside in the interest of efficiency. The general chat between rounds then flows better because you've already moved past the difficult part. As that chat tends to be for short periods it provides an easy end to a topic, so we don't over talk on any one subject. While I can't speak for your son, I don't think of my friends as their avatars or even call them by their online handles. Just as an aside - it's time to retire the word "Asperger's". Your son is autistic, there's no need to credit that awful immoral man anymore.
@@HaralHeisto I don't mind retiring the '"Asperger's" term, but at the time it was the description we were given. I prefer the term "high-functioning autism" because we needed something more specific to his manifestation; so many people assumed 'autism' meant non-communicative, which is not the case for him. Your comments re: online conversation are intriguing. He definitely handles structured conversations better than spontaneous ones. Hmmm....
a bit late watching this video, but bingo!! I have difficulties with phone conversations as I cannot "see" the other party. Face time is important as I can determine by facial and body language how to progress the conversation. I am glad you have provided some visuals for other that are not on the spectrum.
At 80 plus I have recently been made aware of autistic tendecies and here we have yet another indicator. I have always disliked the phone and you have pinpointed all of the reasons
I had to get rid on my personal phone 3 years ago. It gives me much stress knowing that the thing could ring at any moment and I dread the saying goodbye dance.
my biggest problem talking to people I am unfamiliar with (on the phone, or even in general) is deciding on an appropriate level of verbosity and subject matter discourse. I'm an introvert, and while I'm fine on the phone with people I'm familiar with, I'm pretty bad cold calling people when I need something. Such as calling a lumber yard for an usual order. It is really difficult to swiftly transition from the answer greeting into what you need, without stumbling or getting stuck wondering if the person on the other end is going to get confused or just think you're an idiot. I'm just not good at building those bridges on the spot
I am glad I found this particular video. It adds insight. Even texting this is frustrating. I get the underline between texting this as if I used incorrect speech. Nobody talks the same as they text and nobody talks in person face to face as they chat on the phone. The points you have provided are helpful for me personally.
Great article. I am just the same, and started using the phone when you had to pick up and ask the operator to connect you. Then listen to see if someone was listening in on the party line! I have walked a couple of miles to see someone in person and avoid using the phone. Biked farther, and driven even further. Lost friends who insisted I call them before stopping by (I never did, so never saw them). In more recent times, I have found video calling much easier, but getting others to do it (especially females) is very difficult. Personally I usually still stop by if they are in driving range, or write emails or messages. I also noticed that the recent masking over covid made communication much more difficult. I have always had difficulty making out what people say when there is background noise (restaurant talk, music playing, even churches are rarely quiet today). It has gotten worse as I get older.
for a lot of phone calls I preemptively say goodbye when I think the call is over, then the other person just continues, since they weren't done. so I often end up saying goodbye 2-3 times before the phone call is actually over.
I used to print out notes to prepare myself for phone calls and make sure I had answers to any questions they might ask before calling. Picking up a phone has always been nerve wracking for me too
I agree with you Dave! I hate the phone also. Matter of fact, I don't like a lot of people and find I only let certain people in for conversations. I pretty much stay to myself and always have. I have a hard time trusting people ever since I was a kid. I can judge someone pretty good within about 30 minutes.
I very much HATE phone calls! Sometimes, once a phone call begins, it's often not so bad or maybe even enjoyable if I know the other person really well, but I panic with dread if a phone rings and I know there's an expectation that I answer.
Thank you for this. Perhaps your video will convince more people (like my relatives) why answering and making calls is a big deal. They just tell me that I'm pathetic when I try to avoid doing it or make a long trip for an in-person conversation rather than making a call. I wish I could persuade them just how awful some tasks feel. If I have to make a phonecall after work I feel sick all day. It would also really help if people who wanted to phone would text first and say that they want to phone and what time. That would take a lot of the stress out of the phone ringing unexpectedly. I could also ask them to ring when I'm not already preoccupied with something, because if they interrupt me I can't deal either with the call or the thing I was doing. A phonecall will often throw out your plans for an entire evening. It would be easier to deal with if I could factor it in (and switch off the ringer so that it was on vibrate, because ringtones are always triggering).
I have ASD and I used to work in a call center. Can you imagine how much I dislike the phone now. I have also worked in customer service over phone which I didnt like but I was very appreciated by the customers.
Oh yeah...I totally agree that the dance that people do at the end of social phone conversations can be SUPER Uncomfortable. ...or, if you prefer, ANNOYING!
I'd never thought of it that way, but it's true. In a similar way, I also hate Zoom and Teams calls and meetings. In those meetings, people are engaging with the screen, not with the person or people. It's a dynamic that feels foreign and skews the facial cues, and everyone seems to be in the same boat, and can't wait to end the call.
It's nice to know there are some people who hate the phone as much as I do. When my phone rings I'm glad it's a spam call because I know I won't have to bother with it.
Hi Dave, You are so likeable! Agree with all your insights. May I add an observation about disasterous Zoom meetings for me, particularly if the group includes slick talking young women? As an older male doctor, I regularly dont get a chance to speak. If I do, I end up talking over somebody, and seeming rude. Its not all impossible for our tribe. I fit in very well in small highly trained clinical teams, where we have pushed up safety and efficiency, and reliance upon eachother, which is my best fit feeling, dispite social aukwardness. Many thanks for your teachings. cheers laurie
I hate the phone too. E-mail or text only. That way, I can converse when I've gone over my response and verify it is fitting and accurate. I'm not good with spontaneous communication.
I've always hated the phone. To this day I still rarely if ever answer it, and dread making calls. For an incoming call, my mind is racing with questions, what do they want, why are the calling me, am I prepared to answer the questions, are they calling with good/bad/indifferent information, why are they interrupting my mental space/routine. Outbound calls I'm just as bad. The irony is my dad worked for the phone company and my mother spent half her life on the phone. I knew all about the ins/outs of how landlines worked, but never liked the need to use them. Thankfully in my current job, it's well known not to call me directly via the phone or through Teams or other messaging systems. Send me an email, give me a heads up about what it is and then pick a time to discuss, that way I can be as prepared as possible and reduce the panic/anxiety.
I've never been to a diagnosis so I have no idea if I do or don't have ASD or anything else, but ever since I was born I was terrified of phonecalls. I always had this compulsive sense that phonecalls are not natural conversations but scripted interactions with an objectively correct set of words that need to be said. I remember as a teen memorizing lines my parents used to order pizza and being so scared on my first attempt that I'd "fail the phonecall" and they'd ban me from the pizzeria or something because I didn't know the correct lines to say when ordering pizza. This never happens to me with text or face-to-face, its just phonecalls that have this overwhelming sense of "wrongness" to them. Its very weird and pretty disruptive, I'd visit a therapist about it if they weren't so cripplingly expensive here.
I'm terrified of the telephone - and I will not even call the answerphone to get a message someone's left me and I disable it whenever possible. When we started working from home during the pandemic there was a new rule at work where they implemented a call centre on the cheap where EVERYONE had to answer a minimum number of calls from random customers, and this was monitored and reported on. I found so difficult it almost prompted me to leave a job I otherwise loved. Initially I fudged data into the database that drove the monitoring so I would always be 10th worst but never worst. But slowly I tried to answer some and over time I got slightly better at it - but it wasn't really beneficial to me or the person on the other end of the phone. It really came down to the fact that half the time I couldn't understand accents, I couldn't figure out what they wanted or wanted of me and once interrupted I struggled to get back into any form of focus. The last issue is that I feel bad having to ask the other person to repeat themselves beyond the 5th time, sometimes it takes me a while to align my visual imagination and thoughts to what they are saying and that takes too much time because I'm really bad at it. I got myself into a right state over this. The telephone is unnatural, and I can't get the hang of it. To me its like someone you don't know walks up behind you and punches you in the face demanding you talk to them right now, it puts you on a back foot right at the start - I figured that its not really something you get used to. Luckily when you talk to the manager and explain this it can be dealt with, so I really didn't need to get so worked up, but I knew I had an issue but not its extent.
I feel like talking on the phone is kind of a lost art these days. I remember practicing talking on the phone in middle school (being pressured by my friends to do so) and finally getting the hang of it through repetition. Now I never really have the opportunity as everything is texting and email. Once in awhile I have to call a distributor for work and that's about it.
As a guy diagnosed with PDD whose specialty is in working telephone systems (both PBXes and switches in a LEC environment), I'm glad I was given the preference for speaking with people over the phone, however there's a great nuance Dave brings up here, I can't stand when I can't tell whether somebody is done speaking or not (mainly in conference calls), especially when I hear other voices on the call talking after a brief period of silence (I'm also a bit hearing impaired but having the phone or headset up to the ear counteracts that somewhat). However, as terrible as it sounds, I've found the best way to combat this anxiety is to set a "mental counter" for the number of times somebody interrupts me as I start a given sentence. My mental rule is that if somebody starts talking more than once as I start a given sentence, that person is intentionally being a jerk, and it's now my turn to talk even if I have to talk over them. Has served me well for years now. 😛 Just my two cents and experience.
I dont have a problem understand the general tone when called, but I feel very nervous and anxious when making a call or answering, its like I am not sure how to answer or have a proper conversation, what to say and what not, even when talking to friends or family, like when to say bye or such, like Dave I must prefer to email. I've never been diagnosed, i'm 45 now, but looking back I see so much in myself that points into that direction....I laughed when Dave said about asking his wife to call, I do that often!
Dave is like that uncle that comes and spils the truest life stuff and then leaves only to be seen on the next family gathering.
Which I absolutely would love (I'm a little bit autistic too).
Lmaoo
Much better than the bigoted uncle who can't shut up about "foreigners".
I've always hated phone calls except for instances where immediate attention is required. Text messages and emails are much preferred because I don't have to stop what I'm doing the moment they're received. I also have a record of what was said so I don't forget and can look back on it later.
Absolutely detest voice calls- and am annoyed by voice mail too. I always think it’s just a symptom of people too lazy to compose a text or email- which probably isn’t fair. On the phone, it’s live and I have to respond immediately but via text, I can consider and refine my answer for a moment first.
This
I detest phone calls too, unless it is with a friend and we have arranged a time so I can expect the call (or make the call) and I have dedicated time to commit to speaking. Otherwise, my phone is on silent ring pretty much all the time.
Same for me... but oddly enough it's not as hard with in-person conversation, maybe because we usually have time to prepare before talking unlike on the phone where it's imposed to us in surprise, especially since the age of cell phone and people expecting since you have a cell phone, you should be available all the time.
it is sheer mediocrity, people who cannot mobilize their attention for reading, who cannot concentrate enough to write something intelligible. But, that are "smart" enough to prefer not to engage by not writing :-) Those little unprofessional and uneducated bastards. Probably they had dumb and weak parents they could manipulate and boss around easily.
I agree with you, but absolutely not fair. Haha.
It's difficult to get people to understand that for all of these reasons, and more, being around people is exhausting to me. I'm told people rarely have issues with my masking abilities, assuming I'm neurotypical most of the time, but man does it take energy to keep that façade up all day at work, etc.
Then work on not putting up any facade at all. Practice making your interactions with people as simple, honest, and free of colorful embellishments as possible. This is what I started doing and it made all the difference in the world. I changed my social reward system to where I feel rewarded by social interactions that stay nice and simple and honest. And it's those nice, simple, honest, and authentic interactions that people end up really appreciating about me, and it's now what I appreciate about myself.
This hits home hard. The worst modern experiences are zoom/teams/webex conference calls with 10+ participants.
I stick with the gallery view where everybody is onscreen at the same time.
@Marty's 4x4 I could understand the need for video conferencing during the first few months of COVID, but it seems so silly now. Had no idea people were still doing that.... lol
@@darrinito >mic and camera disabled in BIOS
Respect.
That’s interesting. I agree that they are overwhelming, but I prefer multiparty Zoom meetings over telephone calls. The biggest problem I have is knowing when it’s my turn to speak. Also, sometimes that hesitancy invites additional comment from the other side which makes me talk over them. It’s very frustrating.
Yes and they also have lag (even few ms are noticeable comparable to real conversation)
I felt so much joy and relief when pizza places started using apps. When Domino's first started taking orders on their website, it became my primary pizza place despite being one of my least favorite pizzas 😆 Thankfully, every place has apps now, I don't even need to place orders at the speaker anymore, I can figure out my order without the stress of knowing someone is waiting on me. The tons of free food from rewards points doesn't hurt as well :)
I hate all this smartphone app stuff we have now. These dang smartphone have only made things WORSE!!!!!!
The world sucks now, thanks millennials.
@@peterbelanger4094 I'm gen x, and I have no idea how anyone could hate anything that just makes life easier. Do I have to try to get my order right at the speaker anymore? Nope, I can get it just like I want it and just tell them my name. And I get free food points just for using the app. Why would anyone want to wait in a long line to order their food, where is the joy in that? Even theaters are better, I can buy my ticket, pick my seat, and order my food before I even get there. It's so simple now, just walk in, go to the counter and grab my popcorn and drink, then walk to my seat. Why would you consider this a bad thing, do you like standing in absurdly long lines and miss the start of your movie as you stumble around looking for a seat? Am I just missing something here?
@@peterbelanger4094 How have they made things worse? The world sucks because your generation made it terrible for anyone after you, don't go blaming people who had no power in the world when you made it terrible.
I TOTALLY understand you, same with me! Even the thought of calling a pizza provider with all that noise in the background and strong italian accent (I'm in germany) makes me frightened. It's such a relief since I have learned it's not a personal "error" but something that's not thaaat infrequent. So thanks!
Indeed😮
I've always hated the telephone, and I'm not autistic. At least, I don't think I am...
Same for me. Most of the time it is like: "The 1h for that phone call could have been saved by writing 2 E-Mails."
My mom got me tested
Not diagnosing anyone, but telephobia (irrational fear/avoidance of phonecalls) is a part of social anxiety disorder (SAD). A lot of autistics have some form of an anxiety disorder.
It's gotta be pretty bad though.
Im the same.
This is me right now. It would be an identity crisis if I cared about such things.
Still, now I'm curious.
always disliked phones, that thing that rings into your peace and quiet and never brings any good news when it does that...
As being officially "a little bit of autistic" too, I agree with Dave: calling someone for anything, no matter how trivial, is an absolute nightmare. And guess what, that was the number one communication at work... :-( They simply didn't understand that even making trivial phone calls is an absolute nightmare for me. And hence I postpone that as long as I can.... and get more and more anxious about it the longer it got postponed.
+ I'm very bad at the impromptu reactions people expect you to make, especially over phone calls. Hence why I love email over everything else too.
Also (in my case at least): it is not so much that body language queues or facial expressions are not seen or not understood (though, probably less than 'normal'), but more about not knowing the appropriate way to react to them and/or expressing the thoughts and feelings I have in a concise manner.
Boom! This video blew my mind ! My sister in law is autistic. She lives in a house which seems to meet her needs pretty well. But, even when I am sitting in front of her, I feel I am missing a lot of her communication! We have never used the phone in over 20 years, because it is a nonstarter. She won't hang on to it! So I have resigned myself to having to drive 25 minutes to see her. Eventually I get an impression of her concerns (the railroad trains are too loud or scary or the snow is too dangerous or maybe she is sad because another of her relatives has died). Not a clue why she always, always has to have the car radio on to her "only" station which is 33% advertising and 75% obnoxious!
Thanks, this was good to help me understand the difference between autism and anxiety when it comes to phone calls. I'm definitely in the anxiety camp, just trying to remember what I need to say rather than worrying about social cues, or that's how I used to be when it was more of an issue for me.
I know these feelings well. I was diagnosed with ADD as a kid in the 80's (back when ADD and ADHD were considered distinct). The symptoms have both persisted and changed over my lifetime, and today I believe the reality is that I'm somwhere on the light Autism spectrum. Adam Ragusea occasionally mentions in his videos, a similar phenomenon, where the longer he puts off a phone call (especially a return call, or even other forms of reaching out), the more irrationally afraid and the less likely he is to do so, effectively ghosting people out of an overabundance of social fear. I did not know that was a thing other people besides me ever experienced until then.
Interesting; I was diagnosed with ADD as a kid but I've never had a problem speaking on the phone. However, I am really good at procrastinating. I've found setting calendar events the moment I notice a task needs doing is what works. Rarely do I pounce on a task, but being gently nagged by my calendar the following afternoon feels easy.
Makes me feel a little better knowing that I am not the only person that feels this way about such a simple device as a phone. Funny enough I have not always felt this way but by adult hood I have became very irrational when it comes to taking or especially making a phone call.
@@D3M3NT3Dstrang3r I suppose we're all enabled by the proliferation of text based communication. The combination of email and text/messaging all but eliminates the need for most phone calls.
@MarcBerm ADD and ASD have a lot of cross-over symptoms. This leads a lot of autism advice being useful for ADD, and vice versa. If the advice helps, use it! This doesn't mean you have both, but it doesn't mean you don't.
For me, I have ADD, but my issues with talking on the phone are an ADD related audio processing disorder, where noise in a room makes it extremely difficult to understand what the person next to me is saying. This causes a lot of anxiety and "what?" which others find rude and feel I am not being attentive (which I might not be!), so there is a lot of anxiety around phone calls. My solution has been a noise cancelling headset and a quiet room, I still have my difficulties and the solution is expensive, but it makes phone calls tolerable.
Thank you for sharing your experiences
I feel the same
Thanks for sharing. My granddaughter is autistic, and not just a little bit. Her mind works remarkably well and she really enjoys solving puzzles, or learning a new device or 'gadget' such as a smart phone or tablet. Talking is another story - she doesn't. Most 3 year old girls talk incessantly, at least our other granddaughters (5) talk non-stop about almost anything. Your channel is a great help to me in understanding what is going on. I truly appreciate you sharing your experiences. Happy New Year!
My olderst daughter was also a quiet one, she's 25 now and leads a fairly secluded life by herself, so I think she got a few of my autistic genes. She hasn't been officially tested, neither has my other daughter, who is much more social anyways.
I feel this! Ironically enough, I work in the telecommunications field, I am a phone collector and member of "CNet: The collector's network" and volunteer at the telephone museum. Despite this, it really does amaze me how much I actually hate talking on the thing.
I have a 1970's vintage red Bell wall phone, but it's hooked up to Google Voice these days. It looks so beautiful on the wall, just hanging there and never being used 😆
Im funny i always hated texts or emails they take to long.
A 5 min conversation with someone could save days of back and forward.
I hate the calling but i found that getting it done quickly is often better then being annoyed over texts.
As i find it much more difficult to understand and read emotions then hearing it.
I am dyslexic(however you spell that) so that might be the main cause for me.
I love the office365 editor feature eventho it suggest man-hours to be people-hours.
I absolutely understand; currently get extreme discomfort when knowing or going to talk on the phone. Whenever I do, I get extreme anxiety; to the point where my heart starts racing as well as racing thoughts, etc. It is absolutely heartwarming to see someone like me to this extent.
YES!...i get so mad at myself for hyperventilating before making a call to get my groceries delivered..lol! oy >
Read the book last month. Excellent speedy read, full of interesting facts and observations. Strongly recommended if you're curious about autism for any reason. Prompted me to get myself tested, but of course right now health resources are a little stretched. I asked my family if I'd been checked as a child - they said it was a different time back then (I'm 53) and they just assumed I was a difficult, intolerant child. My sister, who was a teacher for many years, working occasionally with special needs kids, suspected that I was somewhere on the spectrum. I found myself nodding regularly through the book. It was heart-warming in a way (oh! that's why I do/feel that.) but also a little upsetting - all those years of not fitting in and not knowing why. Anyway, that's more than enough of this sort of thing. As you were.
I hate phones too. It feels like an intrusion on my day. Also digital phones suck for conversations. They feel more like walkie-talkies vs the natural conversations you could have on analog lines.
I (as a little bit autistic too) have mixed feelings about telephone conversations. The thing I hate the most about phone and often other voice communication is bad sound quality. Talking when you don't understand the other person or they can't understand you is infuriating. I hate repeating myself, I hate when I have to ask the other person to repeat something over and over again because I just couldn't hear it properly. Then a phone can be also my weapon of choice. The useful thing is it creates pressure. Pressure to respond to questions. You send an email or text - you may or may not get an answer in an undefined future. When you ask over the phone - it's usually now or never. It works both sides, but I know if it's about business - I always reply "I need to think it over, I'll contact you soon". When they say something like "take it or leave it" my answer is usually just "no". I don't call to manipulate people. I call to get simple answers, like is my case processed yet, or what I have to do to finish processing my case. Also, talking to a stranger over the phone sometimes gives valuable clues about the person. Sometimes they are misleading though.
YES. Having to ask an old friend to repeat themselves (when we just never had to develop that protocol when younger) is awful, and I'm fairly convinced sound quality has never recovered since the move to mobile. Land lines were never *great* but there was a tolerable lower limit on handset and line quality. Using Zoom without video _feels_ clearer.
@@mr7clay But the latency is a killer. You can get by on a 1:1 call, but man... web meetings with more than 3 people are just a successful communications failure. It's either pandamonium, or a broadcast platform for one person. I'm always the one waiting for a turn that never comes.
Poor sound quality also exacerbates the social cue issues for autistic people as well. Overall, voice chat of any kind is just an objectively inferior medium for conversation. Text, on the other hand, is still missing those social cues but has other benefits such as time-centric social cues not actually mattering. (Plus there's plenty of people who go out of their way to format or word their textual communications to help communication those missing social cues as well.)
I hate phones. My parents talk so loud I have to hold my phone far away from my head. Texting is easier for me even tho I am terrible at spelling. I am some how ok with discord vc if there is only one person.
I don't know a single person autistic or not who likes poor sound quality
This resonates so much for myself. My other most disliked situation is large groups as I struggle to pickup the correct social cues when overwhelmed with them across so many people. I also want to wait to be invited to talk about a subject similar I think to how you've talked about in interviews.
More formally structured items like meetings especially remote I find better as often they have more established rules that can be followed.
I’m actually tearing up a little knowing that I’m not the only one who struggles with this
You are not.
I blame Sesame Street for my hatred of phones. As a tiny tot with an ear blockage, I had tubes in my ears. (Twice, actually.) And the same day I had them taken out, just as I was trying to cope with how deafeningly loud a flushing toilet now was, my parents tried to soothe me by turning on the tele. Sesame Street just so happened to run that bit with the really loud telephone ringing and the creepy alien puppets trying to ring back at it. On the first day I could hear normally as a toddler. Scared me so badly that it scarred me for life!!! Every time I even look at or touch a phone, dread fills me, decades later. I've forced myself to use them, but I hate it. It's like swimming in a pool of jello while serenaded by nails on a chalkboard. It can be done, but it takes an act of will and an acceptance of grave discomfort.
It also bothers me that people sound different on a phone. I know what they sound like in person. Even today, phones aren't a perfect match. If anything, it has gotten worse with cellphones. Why is that? It's very weird that we can't get simple voice communication to sound right.
But from a business perspective, phone calls suck. As a software engineer, I want it in writing. If I need to re-examine or remind myself, the words are there in an email. Phone calls however are memory only, and let's face it, the squishy stuff between the ears is faulty at recollection. Plus, if the specs have changed, I have proof! LOL So IMHO, for business purposes, phone conversations suck. Spitballing maybe, fine, but put it in writing at some point before we agree to proceed on anything.
But now I also wonder, is my continued hatred and unease with phones purely Sesame Street's fault, or am I also somewhere on the spectrum?
Finally someone (else) who doesn't love Sesame Street! I find those screaming, goggly-eyed puppets profoundly creepy and annoying :[
I am the opposite. Would rather talk than type. But I am dyslexic so that probably contributes to my preference for verbal communication
The things you describe remind me of me 15 years ago. I'm only 38 but I feel like I've made a lot of progress in my life. I think the best way to make progress is to stop using disorders as a crutch and to put yourself out there in situations you might me uncomfortable with. Sounds like a cliché but I was diagnosed very late so to me all these quirks were just things I had to deal with. I couldn't define them with a simple diagnosis.
OMG Dave!!
I have hated phone conversations MY WHOLE LIFE! So totally relate to you and this vid!
Thanks for helping me validate that I"m not alone in this struggle!
We are many! I have learned this just shortly ago; what a relief!
@@tangiblewaves3581 I wonder how many of you are critical thinkers, saw through the whole convid thing, didn't take the EXPERIMENTAL injections?
Like with using a telephone to communicate with another human, it's not a natural thing to do and maybe the brainwashing/advertising of such just didn't work on us??
Thanks so much Dave for this episode! I can relate 1000% to this; and it's a big relief to know now, since a short time (I'm 58), it's not a personal fault... And great you mention how it worked for you at Microsoft; it'd be a nightmare for me, having to make many phone calls each day.
And your channel is totally awesome! I grew up with machine -coded 6502 computers, then ZX81, Atari ST to Windows, and getting this view behind the curtains is pure gold! 🏅🏅
These last few years I’ve taken it upon myself to start learning those body language cues and try to get a better sense of what the person is thinking rather than solely analysing their words. This is an excellent little summary of some of these aspects. I’ve even noticed other autistic people getting hesitant in speech, and suggest that they want me to leave that topic alone, before they’re even aware that’s what they want.
Wow. My problems with the telephone have now been explained. Thanks Dave.
Wow, you described my entire relationship with telephones. At 55 years old, I still don't really like going to an office, for example, to meet with someone to accomplish something. BUT I'd much, much rather go and do that face-to-face than call them on the telephone to get the same thing done.
I think an explanation for the paradox is that we NEED all those extra cues to keep up, where as a normal person, who is better at reading the cues doesn't NEED them in the same way. So when any of it goes missing for us, we're severely hampered, where as a normal person didn't need all of the cues in the first place and so didn't lose much when those go missing.
I hate the telephone, too. It disrupts your workflow and the one of the caller. Also, in written, you get information across much more clearly.
It's different these days because when I was a kid, the phones all had carbon microphones so you didn't have to worry about verbal queues because you couldn't really hear them. That made it easy to just talk. Then and throughout most of my life I avoided phone calls because I've always prioritized whatever I was doing at whichever time that any phone call rudely interrupted me. Decades went buy but one day I became curious to understand why some people were sociable and/or liked talking on the phone. I tried being sociable and not caring so much about the things that distracted me from engaging with other people. I decided it would be interesting to become curious about other people in an emotional sort of way and be less wrapped up in the tasks I was always trying to accomplish. After doing this for a while, BANG! I found that there was a threshold of daily human interaction, beyond which something suddenly shifted mentally and I was able to effortlessly converse (even on the phone) and inter-operate. By dropping below that threshold of daily interaction, it would become more difficult again. I discovered, among many things, the difference between the problem solving methodologies of introverts vs extroverts, and "automatic" social interaction can be when on auto-pilot without the deliberate cerebral engagement of concentrating on technical tasks of all sorts. In the end I went back to my old ways because that's my preference, but the experiences did leave me with greatly increased tolerance for being interrupted by other people and phone calls and that sort of thing. I now particularly enjoy observing my own internal feelings and reactions as I come into contact with people in various ways and I must say that while I've developed a tremendous amount of contempt for the human species, I have at the same time become equally more curious and so it has all balance out, to the point that I just don't care any more ...but in the best way possible.
Excellent video! It explains a lot about my childhood. I will be researching more.
I'm sending this video to Everyone I know. Thankyou for packaging this information so neatly for me.
I... I relate so hard i actually cried when i saw the thumbnail. Ive been watching you for a while and youre becoming a big inspiration. I am pretty autistic, add and all. I hate the phone, my dad always told me i was odd and need to just get used to it, which to an extent i do buts Its never really changed, to the point where I've put off making calls to my gp for health issues while at uni. Its honestly really hard.
I instantly deny calls, unless they are in my phone book. My work is not included and I even deny job interview offers and have to call back when I realise, maybe not the best first impression idk.
Thank you for making this, cause i can send this to my dad to help him understand.
I'm the same as you, and was shamed for this when I was younger... what's worse is I was unable to properly articulate _why_ I was adverse to phone calls. I had to psych myself up sometimes for a half-hour or more to make a call, or if I knew an important call was coming in. I really thought it was just my personal problem, so I appreciate you sharing about your experience.
I really used to hate talking on the phone. Then I (ill-advisedly) took a series of jobs in call centres. Baptism of fire really helped...
Same here brother :). And then I took on a job as an account-manager where I had to go to people in person (which I didn't always know beforehand) to tell them about our great product. I had no idea about any spectrum or disorder and I wanted to get ahead in my career (whatever that might have turned out to be). After about a year of struggles and the odd awkward moment, I got the hang of it and had truly convinced myself that they are just people like you and me and are not out to make my life as difficult as possible because that's not in their own interest. Still, having to explain why the support department had not called them back yet was never fun, regardless.
My difficulty is with voicemail systems.. they are just so clumsy to use. For example, deleting all messages when you know they are just junk calls.
It's so easy to relate to the video and the comments I've read. In addition to all of that, I also suffer with tinnitus and damaged hearing. Overlay bandwidth limitation and compression algorithms, which are routinely used in most phone transmission infrastructure nowadays, and it's no surprise that I find it profoundly difficult even to make-out the words being said. I think that's a whole extra layer of reasons why I really hate phone calls!
Hi Dave! What you have described in this video is me to tee. My phone is just a glorified calculator and a place where I keep component datasheets for convenience.
I despise making or taking phone calls. I'll push forward making important calls until it's too late and usually it causes mayhem leading to more important calls needing to be made. Friends and family think I just don't want anything to do with them. I've given up trying to explain myself and feel that they think I'm just making excuses.
The only way I can express myself adequately is through programming, electronic circuits and playing the guitar.
To add insult to injury, medical professionals think they can 'cure' people like us using ritalin. Leads me to wonder if they'll come up with a 'cure' for the NT's.....but there's no cure for stupidity and ignorance.
Thanks for posting....will be checking out your second channel.
Happy new year btw!
Reminds me of taking an IT cert class via zoom during covid. I had more experience than anyone but the instructor so I naturally had more to input into discussions. When we started out with 8 people and only a couple active participants I was fine. Then it became 20-25 people. I'd want to highlight the importance of a point made or provide an example but it seemed like I needed everyone else to supernaturally realize I wanted to say something and pause their back and forth discussion for me to try to comment. I attempted to use the "raise hand" feature but it usually took until my point was no longer relevant. Then there was a phase where a few people noticed my issue and would watch for the hand and invite my input. Finally the instructor told me to just feel free to interrupt because some topics I had more experience and he was just reading the book. It was very frustrating. I don't know how people deal with virtual classes.
I have never considered myself to be on the spectrum or anything. I just prefer to minimize my interactions and blame it on 20 years of driving a truck and losing what little people skills I ever had.
My wife has often 'joked' that she thinks I'm on the spectrum. Whatevs'. then I came across this channel....and the more you talk about certain things, the more I relate. I did that online test you linked some time back and scored 33 and figured whatev's. My wife did it and got 15. Since then you keep saying stuff that has me 'yeah, me too'.
I'm not sure it's worth getting formally tested - not gonna change anything either way - 'cept maybe give a great excuse to get out of social functions.
I don't like the telephone and much prefer email or other written messaging if face to face walk up isn't possible. I don't _mind_ teams/zoom too much since if it's a small group it'll be cameras on - if it's a large group then it becomes a 'live youtube' cos no ways am I saying anything.
Keep up the good work - this channel has really opened my eyes and mind, as well as having fascinating tech info :)
Finally found someone like me,
I always struggle to make a phone call with new people, it takes about 5-10 times to feel more comfortable in the conversation.
using email gives me more confident.
Thanks Dave!
Working with my Family Doctor to see if I fall on the spectrum and these are very enlightening and frighteningly familiar to my day to day thank you.
I get this feeling entirely. I'm absolutely able to hold a call, but I utterly dread it and will be constantly trying to read the other party (or worse, parties!). Especially "fun" if someone calls out of the blue and I've had no time to think through beforehand. Ugh!
this video's like looking into a mirror. literally everything you feel about phone calls is identical to me.
Also, the book was a revelation. Thank You
I've always disliked the telephone (even though I was once a telphone engineer!) and - SFAIK - for no reason other than I regard it as a "rude" device. It says "Stop what you're doing and talk to me NOW". In my office days I would always make a point of ignoring (or muting) a ringing phone if someone had taken the trouble to visit me at my desk and we were talking. I define email (and to a lesser extent, texting) as a "Means of significant communication without the need for simultaneous availability of the participants". And to me that says it all - it's a far better means of communication for anything that is not truly urgent to all participants. Phone call volumes are a fraction of what they once were, so it seems like the world - by and large - agrees with my definition. In my experience it's older people who never lost the habit, or younger technophobes who are now the ones who mainly make voice calls.
Dave, you've nailed my experiences. Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone.
I thought I was going to watch a video about the technical side of phones :p A great and unexpected video, thanks mate! I had no idea you had another Chanel. I'll be there shortly.
I too, hate talking on the phone. My email at the office at the signature even says "prefer contact by Email" . To quantify that, I'm an electronics / electrical engineer with 30 years experience. I design from, whole complex automated machines including there mechanical and electrical systems and there operating software, to PCB's with everything from embeded systems to basic TTL logic and analog. I can component level repair electronics etc. But talking on a phone is just an interruption to my thought processes, which seem to always be going. Being in the position I'm in I get a lot of "Sales calls" etc and this is very, very irritating to me. I especially look at call coming in as " having to deal with it on their time frame and not on mine". I also dislike calling because I dislike confrontation as calling some one back generally requires. I have a philosophy of "The phone works me, I don't work for the phone." An email allows me to do all the above on my time and have less confrontation.
Thanks for this Dave. I think part of the speaking on the phone issue is the processing pauses. A split second delay which might be masked by none verbal signals in a face to face conversation, stands out where there is nothing to fill the pause. TED talk "The science of analyzing conversations, second by second" by Elizabeth Stokoe (example at approx 6mins) gives an interesting insight into how pauses affect the conversation.
Truly find Dave, his discussions and book helpful. Not sure where I fall on the spectrum however someone like Dave explaining the sensory topic from his perspective is priceless to me.
I also discovered from your channel that I too need visual stimuli and thrive on it. I have 12 screens and a whole lot of RGB pixels in my main workshop. WLED is such a godsend!
I tend to say that I have the opposite of autism. I can not carry a text or email conversation without upsetting somebody because I constantly look for inferences that text doesn't supply. I have no issue in person because I can tell if they have lost interest in what I'm saying, or something similar. I need that vocal inflection and, preferably, body language.
I also get annoyed when I'm texting with somebody and the conversation goes on for 10 minutes talking about something that should have taken 30 seconds if they had just called me.
Makes life fun since my wife was diagnosed with Asbergers back when that was a diagnosis. So its something I have to keep in mind.
Smartphones and texting have absolutely RUINED our society.
it sounds like you're describing regular normal autism - difficultly with communication when specific cues are missing
Thanks for the frank talk. 8 enjoy all your tech videos because they oncropocs that interest me -- from the newest esp32 stuff back to 8008's and the v8sible elements that glued those 8 bits together.
The more personal ones, like this on the telephone are also very welcome and valuable. Keep8ng it simple, friendly, helpful, and without fear. This country hardly recognizes mental health concerns in public, and in private provides very few services to most people. Normalizing diversity, without panic, is much appreciated.
Glad to see some more content on this, will be looking forward to more on the renamed channel!
I have level 1. plus ADHD, inattentive type. I don't hate the phone per se, but if I am having a bad day and the phone rings, I dread picking it up. What if it's a bad conversation? 🤐...It can even make me feel nauceous sometimes. Yet I do answer the phone in most cases, it's just the proper thing to do and it does prevent more problems in the future. Over the years practise has made me better at it. It's just one of those things that has to be done. Not too keen on calling people either, I tend to keep that to a minimum too, only what is strictly necessary.
I was never diagnosed when I was younger but I'm 110% I had ADHD as a kid, cause I struggle to this day with the inattentive stuff. Like I'm spot on as far as general symptoms into adulthood. But when my phone rings, I literally can't pick it up. If I don't at least know who it is, that thing will ring and if it's important, I hope they leave a voicemail and a callback number. My cellphone is a bit better cause of caller-id. But man not answering the phone has bitten me so many times in the past. Yet I just can't overcome the uneasiness.
I remember in the early 80s having to learn the rotors dial system, the DTMF was just pushing dial out.
When I was in the USAF I was lived off-base in Japan where, at for a time (1979-81), it was too expensive for a GI to have an phone in their off-base house. Two years, no phone in the house (and of course, no cell phones then lol). I loved it! There was a phone booth about a quarter-mile up the road, if you just had to make a call. Two years, no phone in the house (and of course, no cell phones then lol). The downside was that I was a telecomm specialist and spend most of my days/night on duty talking/testing communications lines! Making a call to loved ones back in the states was EXTREMELY expensive, but as a telecomm guy I had access to free calls, but still, I rarely made them. I was there for four years in total. Could count the call I made on two hands.
Yep that’s me to a tee. I was so happy when the Web took off and you could actually get stuff done without talking to someone. Likewise ordering food - the ability to order online is such a relief. We have a Chinese takeaway near us that is the best in the area - telephone orders only. They don’t get my business unfortunately. Thanks for the video - nice to be part of a neuro-diverse group!
I love your book and can't wait for the sequel! My eldest son was diagnosed post-college with Asperger's and has great difficulty using the telephone, but he does quite well communicating with his friends while playing on-line games (and sometimes wakes us up in the middle of the night while talking to or laughing with his friends, because he also has trouble realizing the volume of his own voice!). I always wondered if it was easier for him in that context because he doesn't see them as they really are; instead, he seems to create avatars of his friends from the characters in the game and deal with them on that level, whereas he struggles to communicate with them face-to-face. It is amazing to me how much easier it is for him while on-line. But if you put him on a skype or zoom call, unless the subject is gaming, he has issues understanding and making himself understood.
A lot of it might be that gaming tends to have structured conversation - you're communicating information to team mates, usually in a fairly abbreviated fashion. All the social niceties that we normally struggle with are left aside in the interest of efficiency. The general chat between rounds then flows better because you've already moved past the difficult part. As that chat tends to be for short periods it provides an easy end to a topic, so we don't over talk on any one subject. While I can't speak for your son, I don't think of my friends as their avatars or even call them by their online handles.
Just as an aside - it's time to retire the word "Asperger's". Your son is autistic, there's no need to credit that awful immoral man anymore.
@@HaralHeisto I don't mind retiring the '"Asperger's" term, but at the time it was the description we were given. I prefer the term "high-functioning autism" because we needed something more specific to his manifestation; so many people assumed 'autism' meant non-communicative, which is not the case for him.
Your comments re: online conversation are intriguing. He definitely handles structured conversations better than spontaneous ones. Hmmm....
a bit late watching this video, but bingo!! I have difficulties with phone conversations as I cannot "see" the other party. Face time is important as I can determine by facial and body language how to progress the conversation. I am glad you have provided some visuals for other that are not on the spectrum.
Oh, I can absolutely relate. For me it only works with people I know very well as I can imagine them in front of me.
I always appreciate your perspective. Thank you for the peeks into your life.
I'll share this video on linkedin I have some friends here in sweden who will really appreciate it!
Didn't know about the other ch, thanks.
At 80 plus I have recently been made aware of autistic tendecies and here we have yet another indicator. I have always disliked the phone and you have pinpointed all of the reasons
This video describes my interaction with the phone perfectly.
Your book really opened my eyes. Thanks for all that you do.
My pleasure!
I had to get rid on my personal phone 3 years ago. It gives me much stress knowing that the thing could ring at any moment and I dread the saying goodbye dance.
my biggest problem talking to people I am unfamiliar with (on the phone, or even in general) is deciding on an appropriate level of verbosity and subject matter discourse. I'm an introvert, and while I'm fine on the phone with people I'm familiar with, I'm pretty bad cold calling people when I need something. Such as calling a lumber yard for an usual order. It is really difficult to swiftly transition from the answer greeting into what you need, without stumbling or getting stuck wondering if the person on the other end is going to get confused or just think you're an idiot. I'm just not good at building those bridges on the spot
Always felt uneasy on the phone and feel apprehensive about making or receiving a call. Now I know why.
Always wondered why I disliked talking on the phone. Interesting insights!
I am glad I found this particular video. It adds insight. Even texting this is frustrating. I get the underline between texting this as if I used incorrect speech. Nobody talks the same as they text and nobody talks in person face to face as they chat on the phone. The points you have provided are helpful for me personally.
Great article. I am just the same, and started using the phone when you had to pick up and ask the operator to connect you. Then listen to see if someone was listening in on the party line! I have walked a couple of miles to see someone in person and avoid using the phone. Biked farther, and driven even further. Lost friends who insisted I call them before stopping by (I never did, so never saw them). In more recent times, I have found video calling much easier, but getting others to do it (especially females) is very difficult. Personally I usually still stop by if they are in driving range, or write emails or messages. I also noticed that the recent masking over covid made communication much more difficult. I have always had difficulty making out what people say when there is background noise (restaurant talk, music playing, even churches are rarely quiet today). It has gotten worse as I get older.
for a lot of phone calls I preemptively say goodbye when I think the call is over, then the other person just continues, since they weren't done.
so I often end up saying goodbye 2-3 times before the phone call is actually over.
Gosh! For not liking talking into a microphone (i.e. telephone) you sure are articulate and eloquent on RUclips!
I used to print out notes to prepare myself for phone calls and make sure I had answers to any questions they might ask before calling. Picking up a phone has always been nerve wracking for me too
It is great you have raised this. I also hate the phone for very similar reasons to you, and will try and avoid it at all costs!
I agree with you Dave! I hate the phone also. Matter of fact, I don't like a lot of people and find I only let certain people in for conversations. I pretty much stay to myself and always have. I have a hard time trusting people ever since I was a kid. I can judge someone pretty good within about 30 minutes.
I very much HATE phone calls! Sometimes, once a phone call begins, it's often not so bad or maybe even enjoyable if I know the other person really well, but I panic with dread if a phone rings and I know there's an expectation that I answer.
Well done Dave. Thank you.
I never hated the phone, but I do now, Phishing, Spamming, and Auto calls. There's one now. I swear.
Thank you for this. Perhaps your video will convince more people (like my relatives) why answering and making calls is a big deal. They just tell me that I'm pathetic when I try to avoid doing it or make a long trip for an in-person conversation rather than making a call. I wish I could persuade them just how awful some tasks feel. If I have to make a phonecall after work I feel sick all day.
It would also really help if people who wanted to phone would text first and say that they want to phone and what time. That would take a lot of the stress out of the phone ringing unexpectedly. I could also ask them to ring when I'm not already preoccupied with something, because if they interrupt me I can't deal either with the call or the thing I was doing. A phonecall will often throw out your plans for an entire evening. It would be easier to deal with if I could factor it in (and switch off the ringer so that it was on vibrate, because ringtones are always triggering).
I have ASD and I used to work in a call center. Can you imagine how much I dislike the phone now. I have also worked in customer service over phone which I didnt like but I was very appreciated by the customers.
Oh yeah...I totally agree that the dance that people do at the end of social phone conversations can be SUPER Uncomfortable.
...or, if you prefer, ANNOYING!
I'd never thought of it that way, but it's true. In a similar way, I also hate Zoom and Teams calls and meetings. In those meetings, people are engaging with the screen, not with the person or people. It's a dynamic that feels foreign and skews the facial cues, and everyone seems to be in the same boat, and can't wait to end the call.
Dave when will the audiobook be coming out? I find it so much easier to listen and can't wait to 'read' your book!
It's nice to know there are some people who hate the phone as much as I do. When my phone rings I'm glad it's a spam call because I know I won't have to bother with it.
Hi Dave, You are so likeable!
Agree with all your insights.
May I add an observation about disasterous Zoom meetings for me, particularly if the group includes slick talking young women?
As an older male doctor, I regularly dont get a chance to speak. If I do, I end up talking over somebody, and seeming rude.
Its not all impossible for our tribe.
I fit in very well in small highly trained clinical teams, where we have pushed up safety and efficiency, and reliance upon eachother, which is my best fit feeling, dispite social aukwardness.
Many thanks for your teachings.
cheers
laurie
I hate the phone too. E-mail or text only. That way, I can converse when I've gone over my response and verify it is fitting and accurate. I'm not good with spontaneous communication.
I've always hated the phone. To this day I still rarely if ever answer it, and dread making calls. For an incoming call, my mind is racing with questions, what do they want, why are the calling me, am I prepared to answer the questions, are they calling with good/bad/indifferent information, why are they interrupting my mental space/routine. Outbound calls I'm just as bad. The irony is my dad worked for the phone company and my mother spent half her life on the phone. I knew all about the ins/outs of how landlines worked, but never liked the need to use them. Thankfully in my current job, it's well known not to call me directly via the phone or through Teams or other messaging systems. Send me an email, give me a heads up about what it is and then pick a time to discuss, that way I can be as prepared as possible and reduce the panic/anxiety.
Thank you, good video, it helped and confirmed many of the issues I've had dealing with the phone my whole life.👍
I've never been to a diagnosis so I have no idea if I do or don't have ASD or anything else, but ever since I was born I was terrified of phonecalls. I always had this compulsive sense that phonecalls are not natural conversations but scripted interactions with an objectively correct set of words that need to be said. I remember as a teen memorizing lines my parents used to order pizza and being so scared on my first attempt that I'd "fail the phonecall" and they'd ban me from the pizzeria or something because I didn't know the correct lines to say when ordering pizza. This never happens to me with text or face-to-face, its just phonecalls that have this overwhelming sense of "wrongness" to them.
Its very weird and pretty disruptive, I'd visit a therapist about it if they weren't so cripplingly expensive here.
I'm terrified of the telephone - and I will not even call the answerphone to get a message someone's left me and I disable it whenever possible. When we started working from home during the pandemic there was a new rule at work where they implemented a call centre on the cheap where EVERYONE had to answer a minimum number of calls from random customers, and this was monitored and reported on. I found so difficult it almost prompted me to leave a job I otherwise loved. Initially I fudged data into the database that drove the monitoring so I would always be 10th worst but never worst. But slowly I tried to answer some and over time I got slightly better at it - but it wasn't really beneficial to me or the person on the other end of the phone. It really came down to the fact that half the time I couldn't understand accents, I couldn't figure out what they wanted or wanted of me and once interrupted I struggled to get back into any form of focus. The last issue is that I feel bad having to ask the other person to repeat themselves beyond the 5th time, sometimes it takes me a while to align my visual imagination and thoughts to what they are saying and that takes too much time because I'm really bad at it. I got myself into a right state over this. The telephone is unnatural, and I can't get the hang of it. To me its like someone you don't know walks up behind you and punches you in the face demanding you talk to them right now, it puts you on a back foot right at the start - I figured that its not really something you get used to. Luckily when you talk to the manager and explain this it can be dealt with, so I really didn't need to get so worked up, but I knew I had an issue but not its extent.
To your point it IS stilted remote and disconnected. Particularly cell phones. I'm 100% with you on this.
I feel like talking on the phone is kind of a lost art these days. I remember practicing talking on the phone in middle school (being pressured by my friends to do so) and finally getting the hang of it through repetition. Now I never really have the opportunity as everything is texting and email. Once in awhile I have to call a distributor for work and that's about it.
As a guy diagnosed with PDD whose specialty is in working telephone systems (both PBXes and switches in a LEC environment), I'm glad I was given the preference for speaking with people over the phone, however there's a great nuance Dave brings up here, I can't stand when I can't tell whether somebody is done speaking or not (mainly in conference calls), especially when I hear other voices on the call talking after a brief period of silence (I'm also a bit hearing impaired but having the phone or headset up to the ear counteracts that somewhat). However, as terrible as it sounds, I've found the best way to combat this anxiety is to set a "mental counter" for the number of times somebody interrupts me as I start a given sentence. My mental rule is that if somebody starts talking more than once as I start a given sentence, that person is intentionally being a jerk, and it's now my turn to talk even if I have to talk over them. Has served me well for years now. 😛 Just my two cents and experience.
I dont have a problem understand the general tone when called, but I feel very nervous and anxious when making a call or answering, its like I am not sure how to answer or have a proper conversation, what to say and what not, even when talking to friends or family, like when to say bye or such, like Dave I must prefer to email.
I've never been diagnosed, i'm 45 now, but looking back I see so much in myself that points into that direction....I laughed when Dave said about asking his wife to call, I do that often!