The Problem of Violence in The Old Testament? /W Trent Horn
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- There are a few instances in the Old Testament where God appears to command violent acts of the Israelites. Trent responds to the objection that these examples show that the God of Christianity and the Bible is inconsistent with Christian and secular moral ideals.
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Frankly, arguing that God wasn’t being literal when he commanded the death of entire groups of people without even providing actual and and clear contextual examples of when he made similar exaggerations is a weak cop-out. If you can pick and choose for yourself without any evidence what god was serious about and what he was exaggerating about, then you can similarly apply that logic to god’s commandments and effectively generate a custom-made Christianity specifically tailored to your preferences regardless of whether that version actually reflects the actual commandments, actions, and teachings of god.
A custom made Christianity is what we are supposed to create, if this life is a test. Notice that no math teacher ever hands you out the solutions before the test is done? People now believe if I follow this and this rules than I am rewarded with heaven. Especially if his rules turn out to be evil - and the OT God for example normalizes slavery as legal - than you are more of a murderer for hire.
God taking lives using various methods that have no choice like microorganisms is fine. but humans have been given choice and for God to turn us into killing robots to take souls in His behalf doesn't make sense. people killing people is sparked by Satan and fueled by ignorance, hate...
Great argument, I can tell you really wrestled with Trent's points and book recommendations before writing that out.
My rebuttal to that would be that you have a misunderstanding of how to interpret the Old Testament. The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is inspired by God, but it is human in its composition. So instead of looking at the Bible as the literal word of God, we view it as divinely inspired, but human composed. This always a different perspective of how to interpret the text. So instead of saying “what did God mean when he said this?” A better question would be “what did the Hebrew authors, who were inspired by God to write this, try to convey?” This then gives us boundaries of which to interpret the text. For example, we know that the Hebrews were very hyperbolic in their literature, and they viewed God as just, merciful, and righteous. So they wouldn’t write a story where the message implies that their God is anything contrary to those characteristics, and we should take into consideration that the Hebrews often used hyperbolic language. Cultural influences during the time period of which the literature was written should also be taken into consideration. So this way of thinking put into practice would look something like this: let’s take the story of the 10 plagues of Egypt. Each of the plagues represent an Egyptian god. The first plague is in reference to an aquatic god, which was the god of the Nile. The plague was when God turned the Nile into blood. The second plague was frogs. This plague was in reference to another Egyptian god who had the head of a frog. I’m not going to go through all of them, but finally, the tenth plague, when God killed all of the firstborn sons of Egypt, this was a direct attack on the Pharaoh himself, as he was thought to be the most powerful god of all. The Egyptians, worshiped him as such. Another interesting thing to note is that numbers had a very significant meaning to Hebrews. They often used them to denote things other than quantitative value. So the number 10 represented fullness. We can interpret the fact that there were 10 plagues as “fully plagued.” So the message that the authors were trying to convey is that the God of Israel is the one true God, and there are no other gods as powerful as Him. Did God literally cause mass genocide of firstborn sons? No! To think He did would be blasphemous and it would be contrary to God’s nature. But because the Bible is divine in inspiration but human in composition, this allows room for interpretation, and that interpretation very much should include the original intent, writing style, and cultural influences of the authors.
@@NotSoCradleCatholic so, essentially what you’re arguing is that any conduct the Bible attributes to god that doesn’t jive with your personal view of God’s character didn’t actually happen.
Paul Copan's "Is God a Moral Monster?" is another excellent book for understanding the ostensibly odd goings-on in the Old Testament. (Also consider sending Sam Harris a copy next Christmas. :-) )
After seeing your comment, I rushed to Amazon and the reviews are mixed. Was it a dense read or was it fairly easy to wade through. I don't mind difficult reading but dense reading is a turn off for me. I'd love your opinion because the book does sound right up my alley.
@@nikkivenable3700 Hey, nikki. The book is a pretty easy read -- popular-level, not dry and academic. Again, I can highly recommend it, and I'm a bit of a book and theology nerd. The book is jam-packed with well-reasoned context that really helps make sense of lots of stuff in the Old Testament that often leaves people scratching their heads -- not only the whole "the Old Testament God is an unfair, irrational meany" New Atheist canard one hears parroted so often nowadays, but also great explanations of the sound reasoning behind things like the Jewish dietary laws in the Ancient Near East, how the God of the Old Testament doesn't actually endorse chattel slavery, how many of the cultural OT laws of the Ancient Near East were only meant to be temporary, etc., etc. Copan clearly and cogently takes to task a huge chunk of the New Atheist's standard repertoire of silly, half-thought-out misunderstandings of the Old Testament.
In short: Go grab it! You might not suffer another internet atheist ranting cluelessly about "the weird Old Testament God" the same way again. :-) (And don't worry: I don't work for the publisher or author. :-) )
By the way, if you want to explore the subject further, I can also recommend these other excellent, popular-level books -- all great for more insight on how the all-too-often misunderstood God of the Old Testament operates with abundant reason, logic, and common sense:
This Strange and Sacred Scripture, by Matthew Schlimm
God Behaving Badly, by David T. Lamb
Hard Sayings, by Trent Horn (the wonderfully brainy and articulate chap with whom Matt Fradd -- no slouch himself -- is chatting above, of course)
Have fun!
RG von Sankt Pauli Wow! Thank you so much! I now have to have ALL the books you recommended.....I’m a theology buff myself and I love history. Thank you, again!😊😊😊
@@nikkivenable3700 My pleasure, nikki. Yeah, if you’re a history and theology buff, then these books really are right up your alley. Fascinating, edifying, and entertaining stuff.
They’ve also all been written fairly recently, so they all tackle head-on and unflinchingly boatloads of the modern atheistic misunderstandings of the Old Testament that have resurfaced with a vengeance ever since Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, and company caught the imaginations (and emotions) of so many well-intentioned yet woefully contextually uninformed internet atheists not too long ago. (If only your garden-variety angry online atheist would simply take a deep breath and invest a bit of time and money on books like these in order to get a proper, thorough, sober, unemotional historical context of the Ancient Near East -- oh, what a saner, brainier place the internet would be. :-) )
Happy reading to you, and all the best from Northern Europe!
I would add to this the studies of Michael Heiser, particularly his book The Unseen Realm.
I don't believe there is a need to gloss over it. There was a time when God needed to be understood as being Terrible and Vengeful in order to set precedent to the heathens who did not heed Him. The Cannanites despite God already demonstrating His power and authority to them still rejected Him Jos 2:11. They knew they where abhorrent to Him by their ways and were aware they were filthy before the Lord and without shame. So there was no ignorance on their part, rather obstinance . They were a highly immoral, depraved people. We today do not have the luxury that the Cannanites DID have by first, knowing without doubt that God does exist, not based on faith but fact. And that by demonstration of His Power and Authority through miraculous events confirms that all things are subject to Him. Therefore their rejection and continuation to provoke God condemns them, and its in these early days God is lets say making Himself known to man , and what it means to be on His side, or not on be His side and carry the terrible cost by ongoing in known provocation of The Almighty.
Dante the celt Amen! Well put. God as Creator has every right to displace entire nations that He judges as sinful. The modern effeminates can’t handle this.
Very nice explanation. I still feel there's more we can elaborate 😊
No justification for murdering children, period!
@@ohuntermc9321
Silly argument lookin with a modern moral lense to a time when morality simply did not exist.Tell that to the Canaanites who sacrificed their children. And would have done so to the Hebrews children. In such times barbarism only learnt concequence to their own brutality when it is matched likewise.
Yes. This is the best explanations, put into context from the Genesis 15. May i add some more. God commands all of them to be killed (including infants and animals) becoz He knew (becoz He's all knowing) how this immoral races will influence Israelites in the future generations, and He was preparing one nation/race to be holy and different from all the pagan race around them at that time because His Word will become flesh through birth from this race.
I had this conversation at a bible study. Not knowing i was arguing a Thomas argument i used Aquinas logic. I'm grateful that you were able to expand on the topic further with the ccc. I'm glad im defending our faith, even to fellow catholics, on the shoulders of giants.
Reading the Catholic Bible, particularly the Wisdom of Solomon 11:21-12:11 really helped me come to a more peaceful acceptance and understanding of the Conquest of Canaan.
Also I was thinking that in the foreknowledge of God he has his predestined plan. So he has foreknowledge of the wicked evil of the Canaanites and so promises Abraham their land on account of that. Knowing that when the Hebrews finally achieve freedom from Egypt that is where they will go. And in a time of brutal warfare, which all human nations and tribes have done, the Hebrews will fight as any other tribe would fight at that time, with great brutality.
The Canaanites are finally punished for their sins and Israel gets its home, all by human free will and society of the time. God foreknew this and planned his plans around that.
Also we must remember that before Christ appears the hearts of men were harder then. The Hebrews saw the power and might of God and yet erred again and again. Their hearts were not ready for grace. Why? I don't know. But the time of Christ brings that grace for all the world.
Also Rahab shows that by coming to Israel one was not destroyed. the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon really helped me anyway. And Sirach.
Why do people insist on giving God a persona?
God is NOT a cosmic ego.
Also, if God can take life at will through any means necessary, what does it mean to say that he is all loving?
You cannot shift goal posts.
The simple explanation is that the God of the old testament was the God of the jews. There is nothing to suggest he was the God of anyone else.
Now, I know for a fact that Christ was not submitting to such a God. Christ told of an all loving God. A fair one. A universal God.
So you genuinely believe that the god you believe in, a god that is perfectly wise, perfectly moral, perfectly just, etc, would guide your spear hand into the guts of a pleading, helpless, frightened child? Apologists who insist that god is capable of ordering such a barbarous act must also insist god is capable of making square circles.
There's nothing they won't defend if it's their God doing the evil
and they can justify rape too or a girl who you lust for but doesn't like you....
If a man comes upon a young woman, a virgin who is not betrothed, seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered, the man who lay with her shall give the young woman's father fifty silver shekels and she will be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
I challenge You: come up with better God or stop this.
There's just nothing better to believe concerning lufe after death, etc.
"Even if God didn't exist, it would be essential to create Him." - Villon
So let me live freely with my faith, please, please. Just mind Your own bussiness and don't troll me. These are dark times enough and Christian faith plays actually a good role in it, as opposed to other approaches in the world.
@@Tony-ci7ys I am not opposed to the god proposition. I sympathize with Christians and their worldview, but my point is that it is entirely unnecessary to say God MUST have commanded the slaughter of children, only to defend the dogma that the Bible is literally perfect and literal in every way, shape or form
@@thucydides7849 afaik only fundamentalist Christians hold that the Bible is literal in every sense. Catholics don’t hold that the Bible is a divinely inspired scientific document of some kind.
I needed to hear this. Thank you! Ordering that book.
You needed to hear that some god commanded the genocide of toddlers, just because they were unfortunate to be born in a different tribe.
Microphone Hell What if he was saving hem from being born in a tribe that would most likely sacrifice them to a different God. If babies automatically go to heaven what if Gid was taking their lives so that they won’t end up being like their parents. And then so Israel is saved, the babies are saved in heaven and Gods plan is not ruined to save the entire world
@@ellasmith6554"What if he was saving hem from being born in a tribe that would most likely sacrifice them to a different God?" Don't you see a common theme with Father God? Christian claim that it is maximally powerful, and yet, whenever it tries to save people, other people must die.
Judeo-Christianity is a religion of death rituals and blood magic.
@@ellasmith6554 "If babies automatically go to heaven" I don't think the Bible says anything about babies going to heaven. In fact, it is more likely that they go to hell, because they are born with the original sin of Adam and Eve.
you're mom
The second point (drawn from Aquinas) reminds me of what Fr Thomas Hopko said about this topic. Basically, in order to show that He is merciful, God must also show that He can deliver justice. In a world where humanity is used to men, women, and children being wiped out, perhaps God uses this method in order to show His strength. It should be noted that this is far from ideal, however. I think that the overarching purpose of all this is to show that God is the "I AM", as opposed to Ba'al (among other deities) who are not.
Congratulations tough guy in the sky. Thanks for reminding us of how genocidal you can be.
@@exmateria1 There's not not much of an argument, or really anything of value, in your comment. Not sure what your point is.
“I should beat my child to show them how merciful I usually am”
Do you really think you need to beat your child to show them how merciful you are in comparison? Do you need to be an a**h*** every once and a while to show how nice you are?
Handing out justice entails that someone has done something wrong or is guilty of something. If you want to flex your punishing prowess why extend this show of awesome “justice” on innocent children and babies?
My first question is if anyone notices the similarity with the "war" for territories for the chosen people of today, is it very similar to the one in the Old Testament?
The second question: did they know about the existence of Satan in the Old Testament period and when did Jesus tell them that "You have the father of lies as your father"?
I mean, they could make the difference with whom they had contact at that time?
And the third question, why do the Jews say that their God is not ours?
What’s the point of judgement day if god just gives this judgement randomly
I tend to lean towards the non-literal view, because while the adult Canaanites fully knew of and willingly engaged in sinful behavior, the children didn't fully comprehend what was going on and/or most likely were unwilling participants. We think of children as innocent by-standers, so why would God command the Israelites to slaughter them when they had no choice in the environment they were brought up in? How is it sinful on the child's part if a child is forced to do something abhorrent against their will? The sin would be pinned on the perpetrator obviously, not the child. If the adults were engaging in pagan child sacrifice, why would God think the Israelites killing Canaanite children would be an appropriate counter move? You don't fight fire with fire, do you? Children should not be held accountable for anything they were forced into because of their innate immaturity and lack of deep knowledge of the scope of what constitutes sinful behavior.
yea and I mean its just kind of hard to believe that god can just whip any nation or ethnicity out just because "he wants to"
In the Old Testament God warns that he will punish sin up to the third and fourth generation. So this is part of Old Testament law where families and nations were punished for sin. There were severe consequences to sin before Jesus fulfilled the law. So here God is being consistent with what he said. He also punishes his own people allowing nations to plunder and attack his own people. Think of all the infants that were killed by the Egyptians of the Hebrews, but Moses is spared. So it’s not as if Gods people had it easier, in fact they were held more accountable and were to be a light to the nations. I really do believe there is an aspect to this where you have to admit God you are God and I am not and you know what’s best. As for the infants who died in these instances I believe that they went to heaven, just like the hebrews infants that were lost.
@@keithbirdwellWell thank God! I mean, sucks to be the parents or the older children but screw em. The kids won’t miss them anyway. I’m sure an angel will just give them a puppy and they’ll forget all about them.
@@7bag7 I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying here.
Don’t forget that God is omniscient. He knew exactly what was in the hearts and future of all those he punished and his divine judgement is true and fair. The children might’ve been innocent for the moment but may have grown up to be even far worse than their parents in their wickedness.
This is nothing more than making excuses for something that you know personally in your heart is not moral.
it actually sickens me to hear this from people.
I guess it's okay for God to end an innocent life just as long as it's not yours or your children or your wife or your husband or your family members.
My guess is , you haven’t watched the video
If u have and your heart is still hardened towards God , that’s up to u
The point is the context has to be taken into consideration
I know nothing I’ll say will let you see reason
But I pray u find your way
And to say people don’t care unless it happens to them
I guess you’ve never seen the reaction of a devout Christian whose lost a loved one
@@crossbearer6453 Well your guess is incorrect not surprising.
Does your moral values come from yourself or do they come from your God of the Bible ?
@@Bugsy0333 our constitution has morals from the Bible
Mine also comes from the Bible
Jesus Christ said we were born equal( first slave abolitionists were Christians using this)
Men should love their wives
Marry only one ( removing polygamy)
Etc
We are to mimick Christ not God of the Old Testament
That was a strict God responding to a stubborn time period
His actions can be accounted for but not for us to follow
@@crossbearer6453 Please answer the question ? Do your moral values come from yourself or do they come from your God of the Bible ?
For me; God command the killing plain and simple. Putting it in the bible for us to know that he is GOD ,. He own our very soul, and with that we can not cling in this life but the afterlife.. Who cares if they are all killed if he will then resurect them thru jesus.. I think the state of that people is better dead than to live more years bear children commit more sin in the eye of the Lord and end up in hell. Thats the real tragedy of the soul. Endless tragedy...
That makes the god you believe in more like ISIS then Jesus
Is isis responsible of every soul they kill?
@@hazzatube7505 There is no violation of Natural Law if I destroy my own car or my own House...Can you sue me in court if I sell my books or Burn my books??
God is the owner and creator of all things...He can take it or give Life according to his will...
@@pinoysarisari7374 "Can you sue me in court if I sell my books or Burn my books??" In Western Countries, we will put you in jail if you premeditate to kill your children.
@@MicrophoneHell-ec3bm you don't own your children.....if you kill your children, you go to jail...
Totally different with God who LITERALLY own everything and Created everything....
There is no Natural law violated if God decides to erase his creation...
IF God cannot undo his creation, then he is not God...
OR God is simply a Gay effeminate God who is weak and afraid of his own Creation...LOL
Why does Matt look like he's about to cry every time the video goes to Camera 2? *wink*
Hey! That's just how my face looks! :)
There is no problem with GOD in the OT. He’s the same yesterday, today, and forever. The problem is our pansy effeminate notions of God that we’ve created in our minds.
This God is a scumbag! Ask the Amalekites and the Canaanites!
GeoCoppens Go tell it to God at the day of your judgement.
@@markj.t.1633 Ha, ha ,ha, you're such a loon! Where is your sky daddy hanging out all the time?
@buymebluepills Thank god, I'm that stupid!
GeoCoppens God is a righteous judge. They got what they deserved for attacking Gods chosen people.
What does it say about a holy book, and an all-knowing, and benevolent god that one has to bother with interpretations of his genocidal commandments. Isn't it simpler to say that the words in OT are the words of Jewish priests who were justifying the legitimacy, and power of Israelites? Why would a kind god leave us with so much ambiguity, so much doubt as to whether committing genocide is wrong under any circumstances, and do we not have the wherewithal to judge for ourselves a priori that if god commands it, then god is wrong?
"God told them not to go to war against the Moabites "
LMAO, yeah, because God did it himself by turning the Moabites and their allies against one another and they killed each other off.
Then the Israelites just walked up and took the plunder from the battlefield. So much booty it took them three days to haul it all off.
True story! Well, only true if you believe the Bible.
"smite the inhabitants of that city" (Deuteronomy 13)
This implies that those who would flee the city would not be slain. We see multiple examples of this such as Lot fleeing Sodom and Rahab denouncing Canaan to seek refuge in Israel. In like manner, we are all commanded to flee the evils of this world and seek refuge in Christ through the Church before the day of judgement.
Another dimension of God as creator who can give life and take the life away, is that God know the end of any human being before birth to the time of dying...what the person would do and his children would do if he be alive and well...
This problem is a catch 22. When Moses commanded that the non-conbatants be enslaved, rather than left to starve in the wilderness, its called immoral. When they are put to the sword, its called immoral. The fact of the matter is, there was no good option. The innocents that died are surely alive in Christ.
How can an omniscient god run out of good options?
If those people were so sinful and YHWH wanted to probe his might, then why not gather all the Israelites and then make those sinful people vanish into thin air right in front of the Israelites?
In this way, Israelites are not commanded to murder babies, the sinful people disappear without suffering, and YHWH proves his might.
If god is unable to create good humans he has no business in creating them.
OK, but don't ever ask me to love the stranger or be pro-life again. If life is sacred with exceptions, then it isn't.
How can a perfect god produce an imperfect creation? Even worse, every time it attempts to fix the mistakes of its creation, it fails.
who told you this world is still perfect??
Go read Genesis...It is already cursed because of Adam's sin...
@@pinoysarisari7374 "who told you this world is still perfect??" The question is how can a perfect god create an imperfect world. Your response did not answer the question.
@@MicrophoneHell-ec3bm because you are a F00lish SINNER with a Free Will....God is perfect, yet you and I continue to Sin...You should question yourself of why you are a f00l and a sinner....and not God...
@@pinoysarisari7374 Free will does not excuse an imperfect world.
If god was perfect, then it would have created a perfect free will. Meaning, in any given situation, humans would always make the right choice using their free wills.
So, the question remains, how can a perfect god produce an imperfect world?
If your creation is not perfect, then by consequence, you are not perfect.
A perfect being would have perfect knowledge and understanding, perfect analytical skills, and thus, it would able to take perfect action that resulted in perfect consequence.
The action of God of Abraham resulted in a world filled with sin. A world that it hates. Therefore, this god either doesn't exist or it is not perfect.
@@MicrophoneHell-ec3bm LOL...you want a Robot??....that's basically what you want....LOL
When adoptive parents bring home a child from a challenging background, even in cases of very young children, they are often undertaking a great sacrifice of what may entail lifelong issues for the poor child. One may surmise that the Canaanite children may have posed a cultural obstacle and tether to the past in a culture soon to be created by God with the intent of painting on a blank canvas.
The way I understand these passages is that God was choosing a people out from among all other peoples to be His. The plainest reading to me is that these things were commanded so that no taint of the terrible evil that had overrun these cultures would stain the culture of His chosen people. As horrible as it is to think of the death of innocent children, it seems clear in the OT that this was the reasoning behind it. It would be one thing of these people had 2,000 years of Christian cultural influence to enable them to handle living alongside the non-combatant population. But the Israelites were a rough and tumble people, prone to go astray with the smallest push. This was what God had to do to make a stubborn people into His people from whom all nations would receive salvation through Christ.
I think we can hope as Christians that small children below the age of reason corrupted by their cultures but without personal sin who were lost in these conflicts are not eternally condemned by God, even if He took them in their childhood. And one may reason that using the Israelites as his means of “vomiting out” these people may very well have served the purpose of imprinting on their souls what their fate could be if they fell altogether into evil like the Canaanites.
I understand the perspective. But it really does seem like post-hoc justification.
So we have 3 options when dealing with these passages:
1. These passages are fiction and we don't believe they happened
2. Yes, God can be evil, and that's his perogative
3. The bible sometimes contain exaggerations that we don't take literally
I'm all for deeper interpretations of a passage, but sorry there's no way this makes sense here. One god orders the slaughter of a people, the other says turn the other cheek and pray for your enemies. One's got to go. I don't see a way to reconcile the two without going through twisted biased logic.
I'm a devout catholic and have been for 15 years. It's my biggest hurdle. Let us try and understand and not run away though. Let's pray to God for better understanding.
@@justinjustinjustin10 I criticize Muslims for being hypocritical and finding twisted ways to interpret obviously violent passages in their book, so the last thing I want is to become that hypocrite myself. You have to draw the line somewhere. As far as I'm concerned, the old and new testaments are two separate books.
yoe91 it does leave me with a lot of questions. I get your confusion and other emotions. The only excuse in this whole video that even somewhat satisfies me is that people being wiped out isn't to be taken literally. Maybe so. But how do we know?
I struggle with things about God when it comes to evil in the world. Yes I know we have free will and people can choose evil but I wish a God tried as hard as Satan does. I know God can bring good out of evil in order to bring about a greater good but that leaves me with a pit in my stomach. If I was a father, I'd never want my child to be raped, for example, to bring about a greater good. There is no good that justifies the allowance of a child rape. Sometimes sadly I feel like we are all puppets on strings in this world and I hate thinking that way. Like we are damned if we do dammed with he don't. Im sure as hell not gonna follow Satan but following God sometimes seems so contradictory and leaves me with more confusion than peace. Personally I'm having a bad day today in general so I'm a bit in negative mode. Promise me that like me you'll keep praying and keep researching these topics.
yoe91 in fact, the whole Bible is comprised of different books
@@justinjustinjustin10 Heh yeah I hear you. God wants us to make the right choice, for that to even be possible there has to be bad choices as well. You may not want your child to experience rape, but he does need to learn the rough nature of life on his own.
And yes, I'm definitely searching for answers ! Obviously the truth doesn't come easy: theists and atheists alike grapple hard for entire lives.
There is none good no not one. All have fallen short of the glory of God.
All have missed the mark bulls-eye 🎯
I don't understand how you can say that the Bible is not inspired by God (or "that's not really what happened or that's not really what God meant") and still be Christian...?
Early Christians didn't have a Bible, were they still Christians?
@@davemartin8409 Yeah Early Christianity was diverse in the first couple of centuries and early Christians did not adhere to one set doctrine. It wasn’t until the 5th century when Christianity started to become orthodox when the Catholic Church canonized the Bible.
@@86thrasherThat’s not true
@@justchilling704 it is... the bible was written after the death of jesus.
@@scarf550 they had the Old Testament, and the had the world of the New Testament in early circulation, they also had the oral teaching of the New Testament prior to it being pinned.
I would recommend watching a video by chuck missler on the nephilim. It would help explain why a loving God would do what He did to these people described in Genesis 6 and Numbers 13:33.
Let's be honest, the annihilated groups in the old covenant were not sentenced to such punishment only because they behaved in evil manner, because a lot of other groups did evil and were not sentenced to annihilation, and the mentioned verses clearly aren't talking about exile from the land. The only reason why those specific groups were sentenced, is because their fundamental nature was so degenerated that some of them have passed the point of reconciliation and were no longer human, while others have reached a point where the only way to avoid the complete degeneracy and annihilation was to intermix with the Israelites.
@Mac mcskullface Sure, there are cases when only the parents are evil, while their children are still capable of abandoning the evil tendencies, but I'm talking about a case when the process of corruption is taking place over many generations, to a point of genetic changes , when the children are no longer human, or the evil tendencies became a part of their inherit nature. Regarding your other question, it's very simple, because I recognize the Israelites as the morally superior ones in this case, or their legal tradition as the most authentic one in general, while the Bible which was their standard, is also my standard for any judgement, and I've no reason whatsoever to trust the other side in this or any other issue.
@Mac mcskullface Actually, we have a buch of sub-human species which have degenerated to a point of extinction, while the line between a human and a non-human in case of the Biblical standard is much thiner than what we can observe when studying those sub-human species. The most basic reason is the authenticity of the Israelite tradition, which is the only legal tradition or moral system which have passed the test of time, as the most coherent one with our human nature, and which is the foundation for a society or civilization which I prefere over any other, especially in case of the Amalekites, whose tradition is a complete failure, and don't have any alternative sources at all.
Your god commanded them to take the virgins among the little girls of the Midianites as sex slaves.
So not even the disgusting excuse you offer here works.
@@ivanos_95 Do you have evidence from the holy book about these genetics claims, or these are just your theories?
@@canberk1667 There is evidence for the claim of complete and absolute evil of people who were wiped out. God flooded the earth because "the hearts of man were nothing but evil continuously" meaning that they were completely evil all the time. God offered to save Sodom and Gommorah if there were found just a few righteous people in the cities, none were found. In these two cases God was more than willing to not destroy these people if they had any speck of goodness.
Moreover this argument is flawed and inconsistent from an atheist standpoint. Atheists also often make the argument that if God is all good how could He allow all the evil that's occuring in the world right now? They complain about the evil, but when God deals with the evildoers they also complain and call God a moral monster.
History, how we understand it today is not how people used to understand history. History as a discipline in the way we know it is still rather new.
Hebrew lamguage is CRAWLING with various idioms. To give one example:
When God said He will punish sins of fathers on children "to the third and fourth generation", that expression means simply "for however long it takes".
And it's not about children. It means "previous generation did xyz, learn from it and don't repeat mistakes".
Just because God punishes doesn't mean He lives for it. He craves for rewarding what is good. But if we wanna push it🤷🏼...we "forced Him to do stuff against us.
The Lord giveth and taketh away. He wiped out the world population save Noah & family. Now, to some of this generation, God’s right to end life is not politically correct and so they spin interpretation of Scripture so that God isn't “guilty” of genocide. His ways are not our ways. We don’t always understand and we must be willing to accept His way on faith without manipulating Scripture to agree with our sense of how God should act.
rkw7250 Spot on! We mortals with limited knowledge must bend our knees and minds to Almighty God.
Hogwash
@@przemeksledziewski1973 Ahh! A single word pronouncement of condemnation without a shred of evidence or testimony to back up your pronouncement. Why bother to post such a silly comment? If you're a child, learn how to debate when you disagree. If you're an adult, perhaps you should put forth time and effort to mature.
@@dlw3425
I can say the exact same thing about your comment. Not a shred of evidence
Thank you
Remember the rule of Bible apologists...if a verse looks GOOD for God, it's literal and true. If a verse like 1st Samuel 15:3 looks BAD for God, it's "out-of-context" or "misinterpreted" or (more contradictory) "the authors of the verse were not being accurate"....IOW, admitting it was just the Hebrews/Israelites LYING to claim "God is on our side". Which means anything in the Old Testament is suspect.
☝️💯
The problem is the modern church changed the teaching on the death penalty.
I love how you can interpret all the brutal behaviour in the Bibble anyway you want... just ignore all the brutality :D, try doing it with any other book :D. Must be fun living in delusions and beliving in psychopatic God of old Testament (who's personality was obviously made up by people 2000 years ago justifying their inhuman behaviour).
"try doing it with any other book"
If the underlying text in the original language of any other book allows for such a possibility, you should indeed absolutely pursue such a possibility if you want to understand what the text most likely intends to convey to its intended contemporary audience of the time.
@@Mic1904
The underlying text applies the same word to the chattel as to the human slaves.
In Anne Catherine Emmerich she does mention that those nations were remanants of some race of Giants which God hated and wiped out during the flood of Noah...
As a 24 years old cradle Catholic I'm kind of going on an Agnostic Atheist phase, which means I DON'T know if God does or doesn't exist.
I recommend reading Aquinas and checking out Matt Fradd's other talks on him and his arguments on this channel
Continue your journey of honesty to yourself. No god to this day has been demonstrated to exist. Billions of people are mind manacled by their parents and communities, why, because unfortunately they have inherited religions stepped in superstition and ignorance.
Ancient peoples did the best they could with the understanding of the best minds available to them at the time. We have progressed since then. Now, we have a better understanding of the world and the universe at large. Fully, by no means whatsoever, but less ignorant than our ancient ancestors. Move forward AJ into a less ignorant world.
How are you going 10 months later Aj?
@@giuseppesavaglio8136 you believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created something?
@@SteveC-Aus Umm... no, science does not say anything is impossible, per say. It simply gives the best answer available, on a particular subject, with the current best evidence at hand and always is subject to revision. It's how knowledge moves forward.
Sometimes the current answer to something is, we do not know.
If you want an example of nothing created something...ask some theists. It's the basis for existence of most forms of god/s.
Self creation. Good luck with that.
_"once again we would __7:26__ go back to that God did not say that the __7:28__ Israelites could make a judgment for __7:30__ themselves about you can take human life __7:33__ whenever you feel like in the sense of __7:35__ now that it would be even worse I'd say __7:38__ to allow genocide in the sense of you __7:40__ can end the life of any human being you __7:42__ feel as necessary just like you can __7:44__ write a writ of divorce in fact God __7:46__ specifically commanded Israel to not go __7:49__ to war with other nations to leave leave __7:51__ to not get into fights with Moab the __7:54__ Moabites for instance but here God is __7:57__ restricting and exercising his authority __8:00__ that He rightly has to take human life"_
What about Israelis going to war with the mainly Israelites of Muslim and (indirectly) Christian confessions who are referred to as Palestinians?
The mental gymnastics by this guy is amazing! Why can't we also apply the same logic to all other verses in the bible? Like maybe Jesus is not really divine and walking on water was metaphoric and not literal. Maybe he is just a myth that was meant for people of ancient times. Maybe he did not raise Lazarus from the dead so we can just completely avoid that verse as being inaccurate and forget that it belongs in the bible.
"Why can't we also apply the same logic to all other verses in the bible". You can, and you should, if the evidence of the underlying text in the original language permits such a possibility as being the likely intended meaning. Otherwise, nope.
@@Mic1904
The intended meaning is that god wanted perfect genocide with the occasional exception of taking sex slaves.
@@MrCmon113 Well then, that all sounds settled.
@@Mic1904There is no evidence that these passages are not literal. Saul was rebuked for not killing the king and all the animals. So the whole command to kill men, women, children and animals was absolutely literal, for otherwise Saul was rebuked and punished for something non-literal, which doesn’t make sense. Also, the Mosaic laws gives clear instructions to destroy completely nations that are close to them, including women, infants and animals, while for further laying nations onlu the men should be killed while women should be taken captive and such. This is clearly a practical law with practical application. How would you make a distinction between these laws in practice if it wasn’t literal in the first place. All this crap for it not being literal is just made up because we don’t like God in that way. Lets be real. Nebuchadnezzar understood this better than most Christians nowadays:
“for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done” ~ Daniel 4:35
Yeah when Jesus said, that he is a door, he actually ment that he two pieces of ply wood, 2 hinges and a lock
yeah..... pick n choose the passage you like or don't like and justify it with twisted logics..... may as well wipe off the 10 commandments too then killing is ok
One thing to clarify when having these discussions is that it's not about whether God has the right to take life but about how he takes it. For example, Let's say that all the people alive during the time of Noah were deserving of death. Now imagine you were given two options on the method of execution:
1. Drowning everyone
2. Instantly vaporizing everyone
One is painful and the other is instant and painless. You might say that the adults deserve a painful death but what about the children? God had the ability to give the children a painless death and instead gave them a painful one. What does that say about God?
@wellspring2life who flooded the earth?
Are children less sinful than adults? Maybe on the surface, but fundamentally the Bible says we are all conceived in sin. Ever from the moment you were knitted together in your mother's womb you were an enemy of God and a child of wrath. I know it sounds horrible but it's the reality of it. Apart from Christ we all deserve judgement. That is why the gospel is such good news.
@@BenjaminAnderson21
Torturing babies is good.
That's Christianity in a nutshell.
The bible says that it is very difficult to accept its teachings. And I agree, it is diffcult to understand why God would kill babies, this is something I continue to doubt as a believer
First of all that we have to give up the idea that the God we seek is allpowerfull. Secondly propably too the idea that this is his realm or antyhing he wanted. People don't realize that the main Christian prayer (Lord's prayer) askes to establish his rulership here too and not only in heaven. A kingdom that has to still "come" is simply not here yet. The Cathars used this prayer very much as it reflected their believe that the master of this world is evil.
TRULY RELIGION OF PEACE😂😂😂
I still find the lack of justification for the destruction of children of the evil societies, if such destruction was literal. Though the OT passages are difficult to justify to non believers, i still have faith that God's will is so far greater than ours, that I cannot judge God's actions but believe God justice is beyond me questioning it.
Or prove he's worth praise or real. Just ( but I believe ) not facts. Let's say osiris waz da ultimate God and your heading to 🫀⚖️🪶??? Wha will you do if dats true all dis time even if Egyptians died out.
My take is that he usually says remove all wickedness and since he’s omniscient he knows how these children will lead to wickedness and wickedness can not be present with God
@@sosukeaizen2723 so almighty gawd nobody haz a kryptonite??
Who told you the commands actually came from the Creator of the Universe?
@@charlsecy ????
Well I suppose one question to ask the parents and grandparents out there: if you were in the Israelite army, sword at the ready, would you start looking for the two year olds (trust in the God Almighty…)? And if the spiel is this is literal, that is not literal, that was overcome by the cross then it is simply word games.
The God has the right to take life doesn’t cut it. God could let babies die if he wanted to take their lives. You can’t justify killing a baby by the sword. I am a Christian and I have a big problem with the OT and the pathetic attempts of those who attempt to justify what it says
@nadreb13 God is not guilty if he manifests himself into human and randomly rape a beautiful women and he is not guilty 😂
Do you disagree that God has the right to take life? If not, why would it be better that God let's the child die, than command that the child be killed?
@@danielgalvez7953 That is not the problem. The problem is how is a God perfect, UNCHANGEINGand loving if he just kills people, both adults and children and then in the New Testament God is loving. It clearly contradicts and saying "well its just different kind of love, you can murder people out of love" is insane and wrong. Either God decides what he wants depending on the convinience or he is unchanging in the morality coming down from His eternal love.
@maciejtedeque8096 as far as I can tell that is the problem for poster of this comment thread. I have no reason to think he agrees with your viewpoint. My comment was addressing what he said alone, nothing else.
@maciejtedeque8096 I myself struggle with this topic, rather than question how it is loving I go for specifically merciful. How can an all-merciful God command the driving out under penalty of death the canaanite people? You'll see that apologists will argue that it's God's prerogative, his right to take life, and they will argue that it is entirely possible for God to order this without being unloving, and I think they can sort of win that side, simply out if semantics if they define love a certain way(not even a terrible way) and they get creative with what God could do to compensate the children that this would wrong. I go specifically for mercy, an all merciful God as I understand it would never issue such a command, but at the same time, as I understand it an all merciful God wouldn't allow limited people to choose an infinite hell, and yet the faith I proclaim dictates that it is so. So, as a good catholic, I wrestle with this, I try my best to learn and understand, and in the meantime choose to trust this strange Jesus who has been such a good friend to me.
1:42, that I would agree with. Esp. in 1 Samuel 25, where David wanted to wipe out the whole male household over a beef of disrespect with one man Nabal. Opting not to just punish him but destroy his genealogy in the process.
If 1 Samuel 15 were in the Quran Christians would be criticizing the hell out of it (pun intended).
No
This helps 🧐
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and *women, children and infants*, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
And this is ok because of the ff. Choose one, according to the speaker:
1. Jesus rose from the dead. And that’s what really matters, right?
2. God has the right to kill. Who are we to question Him?
3. Dying by a soldier’s blade may be less suffering than dying by a plague. How touching.
4. It didn’t really happen. Just figures of speech ;) But the parting of the Red Sea? That’s literal. :P
These explanations would make Vladimir Putin blush.
Literally none of those accurately represent any of the arguments put forth in this video. And I say that as someone who has much to disagree with Trent Horn on.
@@Mic1904 Those were exactly the arguments put forth in this video. I will leave it to the viewer to decide which of us is lying. 🙂
@@MasterKoala777 Yes, if by 'exactly', you mean 'not remotely'. For starters, what you list as argument #1 isn't even posited as an argument. The following three are posited as arguments, but aren't remotely represented well here.
I agree though, it would be very straightforward for anyone to watch the video and determine who's 'lying' (a position you seem needlessly willing and quick to take it to).
@@Mic1904 I will not waste time arguing with fanatics in the comments section. Anyone who watches the video will see that I literally just summarized his arguments. Bye, troll.
@@MasterKoala777 Yes, anyone who challenges your statement that you freely post in an open forum is a fanatic, troll and time waster. You, alone, present worth, value and accuracy to the comments section, and for that, we thank thee.
(^ Sorry, I just thought I'd summarize your position with a similar level of accuracy that you afford others.)
Heck, what about new testament?
Acts 5:1-10 GW
A man named Ananias and his wife Sapphira sold some property. They agreed to hold back some of the money ⌞they had pledged⌟ and turned only part of it over to the apostles. Peter asked, “Ananias, why did you let Satan fill you with the idea that you could deceive the Holy Spirit? You’ve held back some of the money you received for the land. While you had the land, it was your own. After it was sold, you could have done as you pleased with the money. So how could you do a thing like this? You didn’t lie to people but to God!” When Ananias heard Peter say this, he dropped dead. Everyone who heard about his death was terrified. Some young men got up, wrapped his body in a sheet, carried him outside, and buried him. About three hours later Ananias’ wife arrived. She didn’t know what had happened. So Peter asked her, “Tell me, did you sell the land for that price?” She answered, “Yes, that was the price.” Then Peter said to her, “How could you and your husband agree to test the Lord’s Spirit? Those who buried your husband are standing at the door, and they will carry you outside for burial.” Immediately, she dropped dead in front of Peter. When the young men came back, they found Sapphira dead. So they carried her outside and buried her next to her husband.
I truly don’t see the issue with this. God gives life to all people and takes away all life when it is right. We as humans have a tiny fraction of all human knowledge, which in turn is a tiny fraction of all possible human knowledge, which in turn is an infinitely tiny fraction of God’s knowledge. We are in no position to objectively know whether it will be good in the long term for someone to die a certain way
@@Kenny-mu2xb a God like that would be a literal monster.
@@monkkeygawd We are in no position to know that
@Kenny-mu2xb uh... common sense lets me know.
@@monkkeygawd moral of the story don't cheat.
As far as I understand it, the land belonged to the Israelites. The Canaanites were there and would tempt the Israelites to worship other gods and toward idolatry. Simple, cut off your right hand if it offends you. The story was written to emphasize thst point. But thats just my two cents.
How do we know then, which elements to take literally, and which to take figuratively? Doesn't it erode our confidence in the truth of the bible, given thts its exaggerated? Was the wealth of Solomon exaggerated?
We should read scripture through the lens of Jesus. When Phillip asked Jesus to show him the Father, Jesus said "anyone who has seen me has seen the father". So, if we really believe Jesus is fully God, we can look to him to show us what God is like. This includes looking at the commands he gave us to help us understand what kind of commands God would give. Jesus openly contradicts some old testament laws (eye for eye, tooth for tooth) with his own commands (turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc). This kind of thing gives us really good indicators of how to interpret old testament scriptures, and how to decide what to take literally, or figuratively, etc. I believe this is called a Christocentric biblical hermeneutic, and I think it's really worth looking into, if we really believe Christ is God.
@@becky6644 if Christ is God, tht makes him also complicit in the genocide tht occurred in the OT. It's not like God was a rogue deity and Jesus had to come later and clean up his mess. He and the father are one, so any ills the father is accused of he's also complicit.
@@mrwolley1741 sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself properly. What I meant is if God seems to command something in the old testament that goes directly against Jesus' teaching and example, then I believe it's good grounds to think God didn't actually command that thing, and the authors of those biblical books misunderstood the situation.
@@mrwolley1741 I think Jesus shows us most clearly what God is like, so we can adjust the way we view the rest of scripture in light of that.
@@becky6644 evn tho I may not agree this makes more sense than a God who commands genocide that we have to pretend is a loving gesture.
The reason why people cannot accept the harsh punishment of pagan people's in the Old Testament is because they are very used to the modern
understanding ofthe Christian God, as someone who is this soft, nice, loving God...
God eventhough he's loving he is fully entitled to be just and angry.
When Gid chooses to be angry, as St. Paul says "it's a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God".
and they call Allah the god of the Muslims evil
@@JamalAdam455 The christian God says "be angry and sin not". Which means you are allowed to be angry and react in the face of injustice, always maintaining due temperance.
But the Islamic God calls his followers to massacre non Muslims or treat them as second class citizens, almost a slave, if they do not convert to Islam, that's an immoral and evil God.
Matt, I enjoyed Trent's exhortation on suffering. But, I'm still having trouble working through how Trent uses his "passive will" to gloss over the fundamental problem of so much needless and senseless suffering today. Trent fails to absolve an all good God of the destructive and violent aspects.
Do you mind giving some examples of needless suffering?
@@killianmiller6107 I would love to. Bless your heart. Babies born with terrible disease, people dying of starvation cuz they can't work, innocent people going to jail. Things like that come to mind. It just seems like everybody gives credit to God for all the good in the world, but never wanna assign any blame for the bad unless it's to a weakling Satan straw-man bogey-devil.
@@ArmchairPhilosopher360 what is good?
@@jackdaw6359 Good is acting out what's best for me now, tomorrow and 20 years from now. Good is also acting out what's best for me, my family and society in general. I don't think of good as a person, but as a means to God, whatever that is.
@@ArmchairPhilosopher360 if God applies your definition, eliminating you (an ant) can be considered for a great good. Your good is thus relative and your ramblings against God not being good does not even give an all powerful being the same chance you have to be subjective. This is nonsensical. It would be as absurd for an ant to judge a human just much more so.
It proves we should not believe every word in the Bible, again Bible is written by men who never met Jesus !
This video suggests you do not have a reliable mechanism for distinguishing the literal from the metaphorical so you cherry pick the option that is most palatable to you. Post hoc rationalisation.
at the end of the Day, we Know the bible is true because of all its prophecies...
(Malachi 1:11)
"My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty."
@@pinoysarisari7374 Thank you for your reply. Even if your proposition is accepted that biblical prophecies all came true that does not logically follow that everything else claimed in the bible (or any other text) is also true. That is called a hasty generalisation fallacy. Do you have a reliable mechanism for distinguishing the metaphorical from the literal in the bible? If not then we are at an impasse. Have a good day.
@@ZombieHoard we know we have the mechanisms because
1) prophecies in the bible came true...
2) Catholics have their own prophets , whose prophecies also came true....the authority to interpret scripture belongs to the Catholics..
Example OF Prophecies...
ST. CYRIL of Jersualem
"It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men's knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly ; and because it brings into subjection to godliness the whole race of mankind, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals the whole class of sins, which are committed by soul or body, and possesses in itself every form of virtue which is named, both in deeds and words, and in every kind of spiritual gifts."
---Catechetical lectures 18, 360 A.D.
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
"...and now in times of peace by God's grace receives her due honours from kings and those who are in high place 1 Timothy 2:2, and from every sort and kindred of men. And while the kings of particular nations have bounds set to their authority, the Holy Church Catholic alone extends her power without limit over the whole world; for God, as it is written, has made her border peace. "
----Catechetical lectures 18, 360 A.D.
ST. AUGUSTINE
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the WHOLE world employs in her regard."
------The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.
@@pinoysarisari7374 What are the mechanisms you can differentiate the metaphorical from the literal? Prophecy cannot logically be that mechanism. Catholics have come to accept a version of evolution. Does that mean the story of Adam and Eve are metaphorical or literal?
@@ZombieHoard IF God is working through our Catholic prophets and all these prophecies are fulfilled, then the Spirit of right interpretation and Authority belongs to the Catholics...
And if Rome can able to metaphorically interpret Adam and Eve as symbols of Fallen humanity, then there is no problem with that...The interpretation of the Catholic church is the interpretation of God...
I been trying to get closer to god and reading my Bible and I came across this verse and Leviticus and it’s hard to understand. There’s some dark stuff in the old testament.
Thanks Matt and Trent. Great talk.
Great talk???? Its just two guys justifying genocide.
An Overview of Different Perspectives
Exactly what they're doing today to the "Palestinians" theyre "God" commanded them to do to the Canaanites, etc and condoned their enslavement as well.
Yes, God did in fact, condone people owning other people... But never people making others sex slaves or doing whatever they wanted to their slaves.
@@linkskywalker5417God did not condone owning people, He gave instructions for those who are stuck in a time or place where that was basically the only option or it was extremely common.
@@emma_luce_1123 Naaah. If god could allow for someone to be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, he could have abolished slavery.
@@linkskywalker5417 sex slavery is forbidden.
So either cherry pick the the bible or accept that your God behaves hypocritically and thus has no discernable nature. Perhaps not commiting your life to a contradictory religion is a third option.
God is a perfect example of kindness vs niceness. God is kind but not nice! Hell, purgatory, natural disasters, death, allowing bad things to happen, Noah’s Flood, destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, even sacrificing His own Son on the cross proves it. We imagine God is all nice when He’s not because we confuse kindness which God is with niceness!
You’re sick
Where does infanticide fit into the kindness/niceness paradigm? 🤔🤔🤔
@@melancholymoshpit no
@@ashleybriones2445 If we could see inside your mind, we would learn that you are just as sick as the rest of us.
So one can order the murdering of children and be considered "kind"? How does this make any sense at all?
You’re mad at God? He should be mad at you.
Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!
I think the big problem with Atheists have with this question is that they seem either unwilling or unable to look at the situation from the perspective of the Christian or you could say the perspective of God looking at us Humans. It has to do with there being such a thing as sin, virtue and God's authority to exercise judgement and to ultimately decide when, where and how people will die if he so wants to intervene. What is sin? It is a crime against God, but more specifically it is a crime against God's compassion towards us.
The narrative of entering the promise land has much imagery of things like water baptism and purgatory. The Canaanites are also supposed to be an exceptionally sinful people. Now God could have just had all the Canaanites drop dead and have all the Israelites walk in and take over the land at a declaration of faith. He didn't do that. Instead of giving the land to them after a declaration of faith, he had them do tasks that showed their faith, love and obedience to the Lord. Things such as marching around a city walls blowing horns for a week or burning all their spoils of war. It was a message that heaven wasn't going to be given for free, but they would have to earn it by acting as God's hands on earth in spreading peace and good will. As mentioned in this video, there were commands that put restrictions on the Israelites that had a bent towards piece. And there were Canaanites that were spared according to the stories, so there is reason to believe that the Canaanites would have been spared if they left their evil ways, just as God was willing to spare Sodom, but alas such was not so. They were so full of sin and obstinate about it that they were sent to their judgement.
The story is consistent within its own moral framework. The problem is that Atheists see all killing or death as bad and attempt to hold Theists up to their standard as if that was the standard that Theists have. My problem when talking about such a part of the bible is that I feel like they don't actually want to have a discussion. They simply want to name call and finger wag. They refuse to see it from your moral perspective. And when you take their moral perspective they cannot defend and refuse to defend, with also often refusing to condemn, atrocities done by Atheistic leaders or those who have similar ideological views in some other area of life. And so my conclusion is that they are hypocrites that simply want to morally grandstand and they don't even believe in the standard they want you to live by.
Where is logic in creating evil people knowing they will do evil? Only good people should be created, it´s that easy.
Michael Heiser has the best answer to this question, in my opinion.
It's fascinating to listen to this intelligent articulate man spending so much mental energy trying to explain away the things that are in the Bible.If you start from a position of faith, you will strive to find a rationale for the things you read, but if you approach the writings from the point of view of someone who is looking for proof of the existence of a benevolent god then you have to conclude that the truth is, no such god
exists.
Hey, Robert,
Studying the history of The Catholic Church alongside Her Dogma should help you. You may want a enclyopedia to help understand dogmatic definitions. If you are inclined to philosophy, "the 5 proofs" attributed to Saint Tommaso de Aquino should be useful.
"if you approach the writings from the point of view of someone who is looking for proof of the existence of a benevolent god then you have to conclude that the truth is, no such god exists."
Maybe people shouldn't approach a writing trying to find only what they personally wish to find, and a God only of their personal desiring, taste and preference, then?
@@Mic1904 So you believe in a malevolent god then? You're happy with that?
@@michaelsaint9794 I have seen the Aquinas "proofs". They don't hold water
@@SpielinWhelan Who said I believe in such a thing? I'm suggesting maybe people shouldn't base their beliefs on what is and isn't true based upon what they *want* to be true. You can go to the Bible and look for whatever you personally want to find - you're not guaranteed to find it, you're not owed it, and no one guarantees your arbitrary stance to be the barometer of truth.
1 Chronicals, 20: total war; brutal - even viscious - genocidal destruction. David was no saint at this point in his reign.
This seems like a very selective argument to explain away some very deep flaws in the Bible. What criteria is there then to take passage literally or regard them as hyperbole?
Well it's hard to take the passages of absolute destruction literally when the same people who are mentioned as being utterly eliminated, man, woman, and child- show up the next chapter alive and well. The obvious explanation is hyperbole.
@@torpedofish1173 So how do you deal with sections like Exodus and Herod's massacre of the innocents where there doesn't seem to be any archaeological evidence to support the claims in the Bible? Can that be put down to hyperbole as well?
Save Me , there is hardly evidence for or against it. But, what we do know about the time period in which Jesus was at Bethlehem is the town was extremely small. We are talking 300. Given that, how many sub two year olds would you expect to find? Likely only 5-6. How much archeological evidence do you need? Rome bathed the whole world in blood. Do you think 5-6 little kids warrants writing about from the Romans perspective? It was just another day of duty for them.
Your question cannot be completely answered by a mere RUclips comment. It's a huge question. It would likely take years to understand how to correctly interpret the Bible. In terms of teaching authority, the Catholic Church alone has the power to correctly interpret Scriptures since she was the one who canonized such books.
@@donaldcaga5962 So you are saying no one can understand the bible unless they become the "cathoilic church" . How does one become the catholic church?
My working theory is that the story of the Bible is the Israelites and then Christians developing a proper understanding of God (Eg The Good, the Moral Law) in the process of history. So a bloodthirsty story from the OT is flawed not because God is flawed, but because humanity is. In this sense, the Bible is inspired not in that God had men write what he would have written, but that men wrote what they thought of when thinking of God. And the more they thought about God through history, over many generations, the closer they arrived at the just and merciful universal God of Jesus and not the tribal deity of the OT. Which, is, I think, hopeful, in that it presumes that we are still learning about God and our understanding of Him does not end with Revelation, but continues to perfect through scholars, philosophers, theologians, saints, and historical events.
Yahweh sounds like a real jerk
I think Jesus is against him
How is it that we as Christians can "Know" that God actually commanded anything if we cannot rely on the bible to convey facts. If the Bible needs interpretation and we as fallen mortals with our imperfect understanding cannot possibly know what happened in the old testament or even the new.
Also, if God is all powerful why not do anything Himself. Why "Use" humans or microbes to do his dirty work? What could possibly be so offensive in a God's eyes that is "all loving, and all good"? This seems now to be degrading of the nature of God Himself.
Therefore I propose that this argument needs work.
He did it Himself with the flood of Noah's time. As for the killings, i will say it's His way to show the Israelites the price to enter the promised land. How much blood they have to spill to build a nation so special that His Word will born into. It's our human nature to reject killing as moral. But if we have to for the sake of a nation, then it will be a good reminder for us to protect it from corruptions especially from false gods.
It's just the way i see it. Please correct me if I'm wrong whatsoever...
@@papasmurf9017 I'm sorry. I can't figure out what are you trying to say... Care to elaborate more?
"wiping off blood from basket ball" lol. good point
Not a good point at all. The idea that a maximally powerful and wise creator god will command the killing of toddlers just because their parents were sinful, is utterly ridiculous.
That is infinitely more silly than throwing your car in the junkyard just because you have a flat tire.
@@MicrophoneHell-ec3bmmore like throwing the car in the junkyard while having no flat tires
my channel has a playlist that sufficiently answers this question. The Law of God reveals things about Canaan that many are overlooking
The fact that so many christians are willing to believe gratuitous violence is ok as long as God commands it is very disturbing
Does God as the creator have the right to give as well as take life?
@@SteveC-Aus no. thatd be like saying a parent has the right to take their childs life.
@@Plushiecandie that doesn’t follow, human beings are not divine, they did not create humanity, nor can they create even a grain of sand, let alone an entire universe. A human killing another human is murder, God alone is the author of life. Have a great weekend and peace be with you.
@@SteveC-Aus god being "divine" makes it even worse. He has ultimate power yet acts so poorly, theres no excuse lol.
@@Plushiecandie All of your comments here are based on a wholly arbitrary set of opinions about what you think is right and wrong, ultimately built on nothing of any ultimately meaningful consequence in the cosmos.
A pretzel looks straightforward vs all those arguments. God is a human mind concoction. Simple and obvious.
The biggest problem is trying to defend or justify it. Gross
They'll try to justify it and then five minutes later be going on about "love". The hypocrisy is insane.
Exodus "god" is not the Father Jesus was talking about. In fact Jesus calls Yahweh out several times in the gospels.
If Hell is real, then the annihilation of pagan peoples by God is a really insignificant question. If God is justified for sending people to eternal damnation, how is he then unjustified in taking the lives of corrupt peoples? The flood of Noah for example... justified? Is their a greater example of genocide in the bible? What's the justification? From Genesis 6: 11-13: "And the earth was corrupted before God, and was filled with iniquity. And when God had seen that the earth was corrupted (for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth,) He said to Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, the earth is filled with iniquity through them, and I will destroy them with the earth."
If people leave God and become completely corrupt, what right to life do they still have if God is the source of their life in the first place? This is a warning for our own times, if we leave God behind, we'd better be ready for the consequences. Atheism isn't justified at all... #1 - It isn't true. #2 - It's devoid of hope, meaning and purpose which is contradictory to human nature, #3 - If life ends at death, morality has no purpose... and if life has no purpose, then who cares if genocide happens. What does it matter? It's just the human race sorting out it's survival in a natural evolution of cultural/societal norms. So, either way an Atheist isn't winning the argument. Justice can only exist if there is something perfect to be judged against.
If God knows the end from the begininng, and eternal consious torment is real, then God created humans he knew he was gonna punish forever. Who can worship a God in heaven while he sustains the torment of their loved ones who may not have believed?
You're a complete psychopath who doesn't care about the suffering he is causing at all.
The pain of others doesn't matter to you.
That's what Christianity is.
Levels of cope I didn’t know were possible. Wow.
I have a question why he would tell people to murder anyone if we know about ptsd and so on. Not even thinking about victims.
and they call Muslims terrorists and killers
Oh no... not the basketball analogy again. 😭😂😂😂
If someone says "go out there and slaughter them" in the context of a basketball game we know they are being hyperbolic because the context doesn't align with the phrase. We know that a basketball game doesn't consist of murder and pillaging.
If someone says "go out there and slaughter them" in the context of a war the phrase is immediately literal because the context aligns with the phrase. People get slaughtered in war.
I've heard this false equivalency between what the Israelites did to the Amalekites and a basketball game so many times that I'm beginning to think that Christians legitimately don't know the contextual difference between the two.
Also the idea that "utterly destroy" is a figure of speech is laughable at best. Saul spares King Agag and some of the animals and God is angry about it. He regretted even making Saul king.
Wtf? 😂
So God was being hyperbolic when he gave the order but was upset when the order wasn't literally carried out? Come on guys.
My view is that those aren't errors in the Bible, but since the scribes were humans with human feelings and exaggerations, they mixed in some human frailness into the Divine Inspiration. However, the message is still communicated through the Holy Scripture infallibly.
So humans added their flaws to the Bible.
And also it’s “infallible” (no flaws) because Holy Spirit. That’s makes no sense but alright 😂
It’s either perfect, or it’s not
@@Wrestleroftheyear Imagine it's an orange. The juicy fruit (the core teaching) is infallible and contains no error, while the surrounding zest is mixed with typical human feelings and behaviour, such as anger, lust, lying, etc. You can find these in various stories called midrashes - Exodus being the best example. In the story, God is literally depicted as a killing machine murdering innocent children and the Pharaoh's army. As Jesus revealed to us, God is nothing like that, He's infinitely loving and caring towards everyone. So the OT version gives a distorted picture, distorted by projecting human cruelty onto Him.
Also, there are indeed historical inaccuracies, however, that's of very little importance regarding salvation.
@@davethesid8960 why in the world would god or the Holy Spirit ALLOW humans to write a distorted and evil picture of god if it’s not true?? I would think since god decides what’s in his perfect word that he would just not have them put those parts in…….
Curious how do you tell the difference between the “infallible core” and the stuff that are lies?
It honestly sounds like (not just you, a lot of Christian’s) you’re just cherry picking the stuff that you personally like and sounds positive but I would love to know how you tell the difference if it’s not that
@@davethesid8960 if the texts have historical and otherwise things that are not true…….that is kind of a problem for when it comes to “salvation”
The only reason I would think I need that kind of salvation is because the texts (and pastors) tell me that…….but again we can agree the text has been wrong so I would think it could be wrong about all of that part too
@@Wrestleroftheyear I'm not following you.
Trent Horn is an A Level tap dancer and mental gymnast. If Jesus is the word of god, and god verbally orders the killing of Canaanite toddlers, then Jesus was the revelation of the will of god i.e. Jesus was the one who verbally commanded the prophets to go to the army generals, and instruct them to genocide neighboring tribes.
If Jesus is the word god, and it has been with god since the beginning, then Jesus is the one physically passing all the Old Testament Laws and Decrees.
how are you sure it's Genocide??...you go flip the next chapter in the bible and you will see the Canaanites are still there living among Israel during King David and King Solomon's reign...Those Genocide verses in scripture is obviously Figurative language in the same language we make in sports when we SLAUGHTER another Team in Football...
@@pinoysarisari7374 "how are you sure it's Genocide??" Genocide definition - The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.
@@MicrophoneHell-ec3bm by a HUMAN BEING as an actor...That is one component of Genocide....
God is not human being...He is the sovereign Creator...
You might as well complain to God of Genocide too because humans die after 100 years of Age....LOL....
Besides NOTHING there suggest that God made a Genocide against Cananites since next Chapters in the bible about Solomon and David shows there are still Cananites living among Israel....Those things about Cananites are simply Figurative language...
@@pinoysarisari7374 Maybe they are figurative or maybe they are just made up nonsense. The later is probably more likely.
@@pinoysarisari7374
Solomon is literally reprimanded for not slaughtering everyone, you absolute nitwit.
It's like they wrote the story SPECIFICALLY to forestall your pathetic excuse and you still ignore it. Because you're completely unfamiliar with those stories. You just defend the bible without knowing it's content.
FYI, Israelites were a subset of Canaanites and Hebrew is Canaanite language
@ramboram03 not ture. Israelites are from Abrahams lineage, Abraham was Caldean.
So we are fortunate not to be born in the time of Noah for example? What about the sins of Noah’s predecessors.The God of the old Testament makes H. Itler seem like Tinkerbell,
This is a violent religion, and he was dancing around the truth.
Jesus is Lord
Aquinas logic (God has the right to take life). OK, let me re-read the story in Exodus 31 on the Midianite genocide. Pickup after the initial carnage at verse 17-18 (Moses says) "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." My hope is that it is exaggeration like Trent mentioned could be a way to explain away the violence. But if it's not an exaggeration, God is a monster. So as I will no longer try to twist my morality into a pretzel, let me stick with the belief that this is ancient Hebrew propaganda written by bronze age savages.
Upon what objective basis do you judge God to be a monster?
I'm not judging God. I am judging the horrendously violent texts written about god in the bronze ages.
@@FixItScotty Ok. Upon what objective basis do you judge 'the horrendously violent texts written about god in the bronze ages' to be such?
@@Mic1904 By modern, enlightened societal standards. I know what you're getting at with this whole "objective morality" apologetic nonsense. Sorry, but if you can excuse genocide and rape because someone in the bronze age said "God had his reasons", we don't have any more to discuss.
@@FixItScotty Oh, so by entirely arbitrary and meaningless standards, then. Good. As long as we're clear. It is not 'nonsense' to ask for an objective basis for the literal concept of right and wrong upon which each individual bases their lives (sometimes with wildly differing standards).
No excusing anything here, but good reach. How much we do or do not have to discuss in your mind is entirely up to you, but makes no change to the reality of the situation.
Why don't intellectually responsible Christians simply say, "yes the Bible does seem to support---or at very least NOT condemn---certain immoral things in places, BUT... I, as a Christian, am big enough to admit that Christianity is based upon faith and not upon an infallible book... the Bible was written to satisfy man's ideas of what man thought Gods ideas were at certain points in history." That way, you are being open and honest to yourself and others, while maintaining respectability.
That's not how it works.
Thou shall not kill......this shows the torah was indeed written by men
So many other moral choices that could have been used other than genocide, slavery and rape. If every jot and tittle is from god. Then he is an immoral monster. Or people making excuses for immoral actions justified in a book claiming god told them to.
I don't think people can rightly assert that every jot and tittle is from god considering translations insist and they are by their nature imperfect
so your claiming that the bible has been corptede@@tomn4483
@@tomn4483then with that logic, how are we to believe anything in the Bible??
@@onnabear Well I'd first ask you to define what God's Word means in relation to the bible and whether he dictated every word like muslims believe about the Quran. While this is an issue that isn't really settled and is definitely not central to salvation, I think that what makes most sense is that the 'inspiration' of God, and therefore the infallibility, in the sense of the Bible came from HIs moral/theological guidance compared to his exact dictation of the truth of historical facts. from a historical perspective, we know each gospel supports the other because of the undesigned coincidences between the gospels, answers to historical questions that come from another gospel that can be answered in a different gospel.
Have you read the old testament? The people who are punished in the Old testament were committing absolutely despicable crimes, against women and children and other men. And you don't get to dictate what is and is not moral.
Yes He did,and He's sending His Son and His mighty Angels to do it again ,with fireznot water. That's how he cleanses the earth.Thats why He uses the Wheat and the Tares.Tares are human weeds.He will weed ahis garden.
ive only read it all the way through buttt......the O T is a blood bath. i was blown away
Uh, why did you leave out the great flood?
So the first response is the bible could be false. The second is God is an evil b'stard. The third is the bible is full of exaggeration and it is not always clear whether something is literal or not and possibly the resurrection was not literal or an exaggeration.
Couldnt it be god is not perfect? We are potentially close to creating new life in the form of self aware machines. Would we not then be imperfect gods to the machine.
That was the part of the Old testament that made me depart from Christianity at 11 years old after my mum had bought me a illustrated bible.
Now at 50, I've developed a personal relationship with the divine and understand that the old and new testaments were never meant to be one book. Jesus was at odds with the existing Hebrew faiths and was literally re educating his disciples in their relationship with the divine life force that animates all life. A lot of the old testament is anti life..
Pick and choose
@@przemeksledziewski1973Isn’t that what everyone does?
@@7bag7
I guess that makes it ok
I rather burn in hell than worship Yahweh
That is definitely an option, though I don’t think you’d want that.
@OverTheTop112 Idk why but your comment made me lol
The way Christians try to justify their Bible sometimes border on the spectacular!
As do the mental gymnastics atheistic and agnostic thought plays with explanations for the human condition.
@@brianpe6704
Your evil outlook is caused by your religion. That's an obvious explanation of your condition.
This was a very poor explanation to justify the unjustifiable. It’s unfortunate that people like you are blind with fanaticism and mislead your audience.
@simplygilgh If we evolved from animals, how did we go from "survival of the fittest" to "worship the deity that fits us best," and why didn’t animals get the memo to invent their own gods?