Hola, This is a brief part of a larger 3 hour class. The goal was to present the information as clearly as possible to students. I hope that it is clear that the material is interpreted and no demonstration is ever perfect. The material presented is specifically from Pacheco's "New Science" with some information also from Cruzado's commentary on the same text. The techniques demonstrated are: Treta 16 - The Gain (Ganancia) Treta 3 - The Lunge (Botonazo) Treta 12 - The Beat (Golpe) Puck
In the 2006 Spanish film "Alatriste" starring Viggo Mortensen, the rivalry between Spanish and Italian fencing is notably highlighted. Historicallly, at the time, southern Italy and Sicily were part of the Kingdom of Spain and many Spanish soldiers came from these areas. In the film, Mortensen has an epic duel with his main protagonist, a Sicilian swordsman and assassin played by Sicilian actor Enrico LoVerso. A very patriotic Spanish film.
And that movie shows the advantage of the more aggressive and linear Italian style in CONFINED spaces that don't allow you to traverse. Alatriste gets his ass handed to him when the Italian charges in because the pillars prevent him from traversing. His adopted son Inigo, however, shows the superiority of Destreza in open terrain. He traverses and turns to the right as if withdrawing and then gets the Italian with a backward swing with the dagger and hitting him in the sword-arm, making him helpless after that.
@@dab0331It's a shame that Alatriste didn't practice Escrima Antigua / Destreza Vulgare too, because it's more similar to Italian systems and works better in confined spaces as well.
Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti's defense against me ah? Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain. Inigo Montoya: Naturally you must expect me to attack with Capa Ferro? Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro, don't you? Inigo Montoya: Unless your enemy has studdied his Agrippa, which have.
thank goodness someone has a good sense of humor thanks for the princess bride perhaps ican interest you in senor arturo perez-revertes capitan alatriste~xoxo
If you guys want to know something extra, a lot of the spanish footwork and strikes were adopted into filipino martial arts, specificall their stick/blade fighting. The Filipinos took some of the ideas from the conqistitors and used it in their martial art. The difference is in FMA those same attacks and footwork can be used with and without the weapon.
@@jorndoff2002Just because the commenter didn't know you can use it without a weapon in Spain too, doesn't mean FMA systems are "watered down". They had their systems before colonization and they were just as intricate. So settle down with the colonial brainlet there.
@@MasoTrumoiPre-Colonial Filipino combatives were primitive until the introduction of Spanish technique, and steel. The Filipinos take offense to this notion because they have exported their arts as Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis to the west as a pride thing, and a money maker for the instructors without admitting Spanish fencing influence. Truth be told it is largely a scam in the west using watered down methods, and flow drill based mechanics that have little use in actual edged weapon application. It is pretty, but doesn't hold up ( as depicted) in combat. Allegedy Ferninand Magellan was killed by the cheftain Lapu-Lapu on the beach using a fire hardened rattan stick. Maybe a lucky blow, a sneak attack, or it never actually happened; however, they owe much of their refined technique to Spanish fencing, and prior to that it was largely untechnical stick and barong ass beating. I have studied both, and some Filipino systems maintain a great deal of fencing mechanics, and technique, many more have turned it into watered down patty-cake with compliant, static "attackers".
I read that Italian fencing favored more linear footwork over time, while the Spanish school favored side-to-side movement to get a better angle of attack on the opponent. BTW, the guy in red with the steel helmet looks scary...
Italian is linear and is more based on sword work aimed more towards attacking and killing the oponent. Spanish combat is circular and it combines footwork, geometry applied, math and other sciences as well as angular movements ououtside of the line of attack and it's primary objective is to control of the oponents' blade before striking.The last objective being taking a life since killing was considered mortal sin in the Catholic religion. You could watch some videos of CanalAEEA of Spain
A little biased explanation I must say, you differentiate the styles very well but to say that they applied geometry, math and science it is a stretch, they did no more than ant other style did, do you believe that other fencers developed their styles based on what looked more fancy or what experience showed them what was more effective? And to the religious part... Yes Spaniards were catholics but guess who else were, italians, they are quite literally the capital of catholicism, wars, duels, you kinda forget how big of a sin it is to kill but rather think how big of tragedy would be to die.
@@josefranciscoramirez4438You can search on the internet for these manuals, called VERDADERA DESTREZA, it uses geometry maths and more. Because half italy was spanish he was refereng to taht. Also there are a lot or tretas to disarm and not to kill, as he said it was a sin.
The lunge is an aggressive move in the Italian system, it is a kind of win or die thing. The Spanish system from what I have seen is more defensive and has a lot of counter attacks.
Yup, double touch can happen a lot in epee. That is the only issue with sport fencing IMHO is that it becomes a race to 5 touches, and that is why I switched to historic fencing since they realize that if you lose you likely die and therefore focus on having defense.
The spanish system "La Verdadera Destreza" was thought to be a "christian" way of defense. You would go more to disable your opponents than to outright kill them (like italians with Fabrizz or however the f*** its written). This gives you a much more defensive and secure system, you would either stop the fight or disable your opponent. With other systems, like the one mentioned before, you would either kill your opponent or die/get severely injured.
+Neo Henry From the treaties of Carranza if I recall correctly... The sole name of the manual is something like "Treaty about true destreza and the defense of the christian". This is valid only for Verdadera Destreza tho, Vulgar (Common) Destreza resembles much more italian fencing like Capo Ferros where you may take a bit riskier lunges and ateos, but still on a pretty solid bases. Hope I tempestades clarify it a bit.
I prefer historical fencing than modern/olimpic fencing, and this is a great video about one if not the best fencing techniques, there's no doubt the Spanish system is deadly, I love it, and I use some of these moves for olympic fencing, and it works, thanks for uploading this video. 5 STARS in my opinion.
According to one scholar, dancing in the 1600s is influenced by the fencing. There is a text on Spanish 17th century dancing that shows the dance footwork used the same terminology as the fencing manuals. This is described as an attempt to market dancing to a Spanish aristocracy that had already embraced fencing. See The Art of Dancing in Seventeenth-century Spain By Lynn Matluck Brooks.
This is a great little intro to Destreza for putting the basic concepts of right angle, circular movements, no-lunge in their martial context, to dispel any notion that these are no more than stylistic affectations.
Interesting video. I can really see the relationship between Spanish sword work and the Filipino Martial Arts that I study. Obviously the differences in the sword shapes and styles necessitate alterations but there are a good deal of similarities as well. Nice video and it is good to see Western Martial Arts making a comeback in recent years. I feel that in general, Western fighting abilities have been overlooked and downplayed to the benefit of Eastern methods.
Natasel. Giacomo Di Grassi says that a Gentleman should be able to improvise a weapon with whatever is at hand as he may not always have his sword. He probably didn't have goats in mind when he wrote that but probably would have advised us that time & measure apply to goat swinging too.
All of it depends on periods of course, but the Europeans folded steel way back like the Japanese. Why? To make their blades stronger of course. Later on Europeans had no need to fold any longer as they found ways to make great steel. The Japanese continued to do so. As for fighting styles I would say the europeans styles are superior, but as always it depends on the fighter.
It is an obvious commitment for every true proponent of the art to make a martial, spiritual and technical review on the teachings of legendary maestros like Don Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza and Luis Pacheco de Narváez (16th century). There is no end to the vivacity, beauty and magnificence of ancient fencing. (épéeist - 33)
You don't see bent knees in Destreza. That is consistent throughout. I don't remember any illustrations in Carranza, but Narvaez, Ettenhard, Thibault (an offshoot of Destreza), all have a very upright stance, and I have seen the same guard in texts up to the 19th century. I don't know how well it would work with the light blades of modern fencing, but it is quite effective with 16th & 17th century blades (and given the longevity, I assume 18th & 19th century blades as well.)
Spanish rapiers don't move right forward. Moving sideways is a better approach to your enemy. That's basic stuff. You'll find the spanish style much safer than any other.
If you ask me, there's a time and a place for both Spanish and Italian concepts. I've been looking at destreza for a number of months now and I'm adoring the system. However, I still believe there is a place for the other styles. I don't believe any system is the "best", since there are weaknesses in any system, but destreza is certainly a great one :)
The flick is a modern sporting innovation which relies on a light flexible blade. On the other hand circular cuts have a much longer history outside the sporting context. Replacing the full circular cut with a half cut is a valid option but that isn't what was described in the source text.
In the video there is also a discussion on engagement/parries. We must differentiate a French foil parry/engagement from the Italian system. French smallsword parries leave the tip on target and do not completely close the line. They are susceptible to forced glides. (See Gaugler's Science p.31). I was showing a specific action but if opposed by a French parry, there are a wide range of different options. In this case, I needed to stick to a particular technique as described in the text.
The movie Alatriste shows the advantage of the more aggressive and linear Italian style in CONFINED spaces that don't allow you to traverse. Alatriste gets his ass handed to him when the Italian charges in because the pillars prevent him from traversing. His adopted son Inigo, however, shows the superiority of Destreza in open terrain. He traverses and turns to the right as if withdrawing and then gets the Italian with a backward swing with the dagger and hitting him in the sword-arm, making him helpless after that.
@lysandermckain He is moving slowly because he's teaching technique and principles - it's the first and gentlest stage of training for combat. I asked about your background because real combat techniques (performed like this) often look silly to someone who does heavy sparring but hasn't learnt a pre-existing martial art. I've only dabbled in fencing but these techniques seem to reflect common martial principles: timing, posture, leverage, yielding rather than opposing force, etc..
im not saying rapier is superior to katana fencing im saying that in theory a rapieist is more able to predict the katanas moveset by looking at the montante or longsword fighting wheras the samurai never developed a sword like the rapier as you say the spear is the closest thing to a rapier in japan, either that or some varients of the tachi or katana which were straighter and thinner than normal but thats a good point the samurai using moves against a spearman to try and figure out a rapier
+elgostine Currently there are 47 different styles of Japanese koryu that from the 14th to the 19th century specialized not only in using katana, but in other types of weapons, unarmed martial arts and even strategic board games. You only learn that when you are a kendoka.
Honestly, the fight would favor the rapier. The rapier can strike faster than the katana, and stabs are much more difficult to block than slashes. If the fencer controls the pace, he wins. The katana would have to take the initiative and try to stay off line with diagonal steps in as he attacks.
There are plenty of HEMA schools in the area and the SCA as well. My advice would be to avoid ARMA. They seem like a good organization at first blush and they have made meaningful contributions. Unfortunately, they do not play well with others in significant ways. Be fair and google them and John Clements' books first to get a bigger picture. Generally, I try not to dissuade people from a particular school but this is my sole exception.
that would be like bruce lee's fast lead jabs vs. mike tysons 1 hit knockout out punches except with blades.. i think european fencing would win cause of footwork and there unconventional angles of attack to the wrist
@demomanchaos actually there were a couple shields associated with Fencing, the small buckler, and the larger Rotella, I think it would be Rodela in Spanish. The works of the Italian master CapoFerro illustrate the use of the Rotella and Rapier.
It is not modern fencing, but it is historic Spanish Destreza of the late 16th & early 17th centuries. Modern fencing is largely evolved from French and Italian schools that were more linear in their approach. Destreza took a more circular approach that led well to cuts. Also that the blades were heavier and had edges and a taper, which greatly affect the blade mechanics. What he is teaching is taken directly from the writings of Narvaez, one of the most respected masters of his day.
Seeing how effective the Verdadera Destreza was, one can just regret that Quevedo didn't write any fencing book [explaining the joke intensifies] Quevedo, one of best satirical writters of XVII century, was also so good a fencer than when he disagreed with Pacheco de Narvaez (the master of the Verdadera Destreza) about his preceived demerits of the system, he proved it by easily remove Narvaez's hat with a botonazo (thrust with blunt rapier)
@@christiana.v.w1607 Quevedo *did* use the Verdadera Destreza, just had more practical experience. One with actual experience *and* good teachings will win against one lacking either of those. Often the ones lacking training think that their experience is enough because they'rve won against people with training but without experience. People like Quevedo or Lope de Vega are more than eager to prove them wrong.
Neapolitan? Spanish army? The heck are you talking about? The Italians practically invented the art of cut and thrust. The Spanish and even the French school were derived from and influenced by the Italian tradition.
@@Lion718 "Jerónimo Carranza's seminal treatise De la Filosofía de las Armas y de su Destreza y la Aggression y Defensa Cristiana was published in 1582 under the sponsorship of Don Alonso de Guzmán El Bueno, 7th Duke of Medina Sidonia , but according to its colophon was compiled as early as 1569. Pacheco in a letter to the Duke of Cea in Madrid on 4 May 1618 stated that Carranza's system was based on the work of Italian fencing theorist Camillo Agrippa."
@jagerma5ter I am pretty sure that he is using either a rapier or sidesword blade from Darkwood Armory. You can look them up on-line, and they have a very nice selection of blades designed for sparring.
Maestro Puck's wife Mary is working on translating Carranza, and I believe much of Narvaez. Her specialty is in Golden Age Spanish. However, I don't know what the timing is.
The answer is far from that simple. Are they armoured? In what style? If the samurai gets to use two hands on his katana, does the duelist get a main gauche? Or do they both get off-hand weapons? And remember that the best katanas were made from imported Spanish steel -- a good katana isn't "harder" than a good rapier (whatever that means), but it is likely heavier and a lot shorter.
I read that Toledo, Damascus and Japanese sword steal were of the same source - Meteorite lumps from Near Toledo. That´s why its so difficult to duplicate. Anyone?
Funny how things evolve very similar in different times and places. This kind of footwork is very similar to a chines martial art called baguazhang. They use circular footwork to create angles from wich to attack. This is great stuff by the way. THX for posting silk
I second your posts, "it's sad times when people make comments about such that they know not of, or of people they haven't taken the time to learn about." Amen.
It actually happened in 1896, count Santelli, captain of the guards of Vienna vs. Japanese emperor's chief retainer. Santelli won 96:4, I think. But it was probably more due to rapier being better weapon than katana. Because of that difference, average samurai were fairly better swordfighters than average Europeans (since they have larger drawback to overcome), but master on master - weapon specifications play large role.
Having a period accurate Late European Knight with no armour facing a Samurai with no armour would be more interesting and more comparable. I would guess that the Knight would win because the fighting style is so much more centered because of his cross guards. So minuscule a difference, and yet a tremendous advantage.
We would like to offer our weight in chocolate chip cookies for Maestro Puck to relocate to our shire. This video proved very useful to us. Thanks for putting it up!
True. I don't think of the Italian (esp. Capoferro) use of the rotella as relying on the the shield, but as using it to support the blade, which is still the primary defense. I may have been missed demomanchaos's meaning, but the image I had was closer to a left foot forward version of CF's position F. I see that more often and see it requiring tempos to attack. Against someone using CF's Rotella, I work towards constraining the blade as normal, and direct more attacks to the outside line.
@murrayro The terms are different, but the Spanish do use the same hand positions. In workshops, he always lets the students know that he is coming from a classical italian background which could influence interpretation. I think part of the reason for describing it that way is most people in the room were familiar with Italian rapier, but not Destreza. Also Italian hand positions are not the same as the French ones commonly used in modern fencing. Ex. Terza has the palm facing in, not down.
The only text I know for sure "barrely about" it is L´Academie de l´Espee, but Im pretty sure your mate know it well. What I was trying to say is that Destreza is a "de facto" lost art as far as I know. But its great to see the efforts of some maestros trying to take it back to light, taking as a start the bases of the antique italian fencing art, and correct me if Im wrong, some Portuges remains about it. Pace^^
well the older the dance the closer to fighting it is, the footwork in the tango is very similar to the circle walking in bagua so i was making the leap trying to see what influenced the footwork this is a great video, wish there were more like it explaining Spanish Fencing but i have a question what is french, Italian, the rest of europe's fencing like?
Stepping off the line of attack to the left is classical and fatal. Stepping off the line of attack is modern and successful. Although I agree with this analysis, was that the point of this exercise?
Military conquests are more often a result of formations using pike and shot than single combat. I think studying Destreza would be very useful for a soldier but you're not going to place an atajo over an incoming bullet. When Jeronimo Carranza did take down a group of pirates in the Honduras they used a collection of long cattle-herding tools repurposed as pikes.
This is a tough question to answer without sounding jaded.... There is a lot of simularity between period fencing, and moden fencing. Terms change, technique not so much. As a fencer with about 20 years experience, still when I mention that, I get the attitude of "oh, you can't think laterally" or "oh, that doesn't translate, you can't use foil/epee techniques with a rapier" or at the worst "oh... Olympic fencing. Yeah, whatever." It's a bit of bigotry in the SCA that's still very present.
@036265 Most of us, actually. Why would we want to pay $15/mo to play a game of fake fighters with fake weapons and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it, when we fight our real friends with real swords? We treat sword play of the middle ages with the same amount of devotion to learning technique as martial artists of Asian systems.
Its not supposed to be sword fighting, Nor do the serious practitioners pretend they are sword fighting,.They are sports that are descended from swordfighting in the same way tent pegging and dressage are descended from military warhorse training.
mark my word . their clothing is going to be a retro (from way back when) fashion hit fall 2021. you'll see those ramants on the male and female models on the catwalks of Paris, Milan and Paris soon . cloaks will be added for fall winter 2021-2022 . spring summer 2022 as you see here, without the cloaks
Sorry, meant to finish that sentence with "stepping off the line of attack to the RIGHT is modern, and successful." This seemed to be discovered during the seminar. Was this the point of the exercise?
Hola,
This is a brief part of a larger 3 hour class. The goal was to present the information as clearly as possible to students. I hope that it is clear that the material is interpreted and no demonstration is ever perfect. The material presented is specifically from Pacheco's "New Science" with some information also from Cruzado's commentary on the same text.
The techniques demonstrated are:
Treta 16 - The Gain (Ganancia)
Treta 3 - The Lunge (Botonazo)
Treta 12 - The Beat (Golpe)
Puck
Oh neat, insert customary "first reply to 12y.o. comment" comment.
Greetings :) where can I find such nice rapiers?
In the 2006 Spanish film "Alatriste" starring Viggo Mortensen, the rivalry between Spanish and Italian fencing is notably highlighted. Historicallly, at the time, southern Italy and Sicily were part of the Kingdom of Spain and many Spanish soldiers came from these areas. In the film, Mortensen has an epic duel with his main protagonist, a Sicilian swordsman and assassin played by Sicilian actor Enrico LoVerso. A very patriotic Spanish film.
And that movie shows the advantage of the more aggressive and linear Italian style in CONFINED spaces that don't allow you to traverse. Alatriste gets his ass handed to him when the Italian charges in because the pillars prevent him from traversing.
His adopted son Inigo, however, shows the superiority of Destreza in open terrain. He traverses and turns to the right as if withdrawing and then gets the Italian with a backward swing with the dagger and hitting him in the sword-arm, making him helpless after that.
@@dab0331It's a shame that Alatriste didn't practice Escrima Antigua / Destreza Vulgare too, because it's more similar to Italian systems and works better in confined spaces as well.
Comments drifting into politics and religion have been deleted. Not relevant to subject matter.
high brow thinking, im all for authoritarian enforced liberalism
@@Tigerseye41 😂
Who the fuck was talking politics in a fencing video?
@@Tigerseye41 No one cares 😂
わお！なんてこと！最高！✨
極めてる…！！宗教に関してのものをよけているの素敵！
Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti's defense against me ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo Montoya: Naturally you must expect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro, don't you?
Inigo Montoya: Unless your enemy has studdied his Agrippa, which have.
+borimirtheboring where is that from??
The Princess Bride
thank goodness someone has a good sense of humor thanks for the princess bride perhaps ican interest you in senor arturo perez-revertes capitan alatriste~xoxo
Anyone who has seen The Princess Bride read this script exactly as it happened in the movie. Voices, banter, and all.
"Íñigo", not "Inigo".
He forgot the most important tip: R1 R1 R1 R1 R1
Isaiah
I prefer L2 R2222222...
ptsd
If you guys want to know something extra, a lot of the spanish footwork and strikes were adopted into filipino martial arts, specificall their stick/blade fighting. The Filipinos took some of the ideas from the conqistitors and used it in their martial art. The difference is in FMA those same attacks and footwork can be used with and without the weapon.
They were used with and without weapons in Spain as well. No difference. The Filipinos did a watered down version if anything.
@@jorndoff2002Just because the commenter didn't know you can use it without a weapon in Spain too, doesn't mean FMA systems are "watered down". They had their systems before colonization and they were just as intricate.
So settle down with the colonial brainlet there.
@@MasoTrumoiPre-Colonial Filipino combatives were primitive until the introduction of Spanish technique, and steel. The Filipinos take offense to this notion because they have exported their arts as Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis to the west as a pride thing, and a money maker for the instructors without admitting Spanish fencing influence. Truth be told it is largely a scam in the west using watered down methods, and flow drill based mechanics that have little use in actual edged weapon application. It is pretty, but doesn't hold up ( as depicted) in combat. Allegedy Ferninand Magellan was killed by the cheftain Lapu-Lapu on the beach using a fire hardened rattan stick. Maybe a lucky blow, a sneak attack, or it never actually happened; however, they owe much of their refined technique to Spanish fencing, and prior to that it was largely untechnical stick and barong ass beating.
I have studied both, and some Filipino systems maintain a great deal of fencing mechanics, and technique, many more have turned it into watered down patty-cake with compliant, static "attackers".
Many of these attacks exist in gong fu.
@@jorndoff2002 Bahahahhahaha bro said watered down version im gonna out my kampilan inside your ass bahahahahahaha
I read that Italian fencing favored more linear footwork over time, while the Spanish school favored side-to-side movement to get a better angle of attack on the opponent.
BTW, the guy in red with the steel helmet looks scary...
Italian is linear and is more based on sword work aimed more towards attacking and killing the oponent. Spanish combat is circular and it combines footwork, geometry applied, math and other sciences as well as angular movements ououtside of the line of attack and it's primary objective is to control of the oponents' blade before striking.The last objective being taking a life since killing was considered mortal sin in the Catholic religion. You could watch some videos of CanalAEEA of Spain
In Spanish style the aim was not kill, but "not to die".
A little biased explanation I must say, you differentiate the styles very well but to say that they applied geometry, math and science it is a stretch, they did no more than ant other style did, do you believe that other fencers developed their styles based on what looked more fancy or what experience showed them what was more effective? And to the religious part... Yes Spaniards were catholics but guess who else were, italians, they are quite literally the capital of catholicism, wars, duels, you kinda forget how big of a sin it is to kill but rather think how big of tragedy would be to die.
@@josefranciscoramirez4438You can search on the internet for these manuals, called VERDADERA DESTREZA, it uses geometry maths and more. Because half italy was spanish he was refereng to taht. Also there are a lot or tretas to disarm and not to kill, as he said it was a sin.
I was waiting for one of these people to come in dessed as Darth Vader..
The lunge is an aggressive move in the Italian system, it is a kind of win or die thing. The Spanish system from what I have seen is more defensive and has a lot of counter attacks.
Yeah, as my teacher usually said the lunge was usually called the 2 widow move XD because it usually ended with both dead.
Yup, double touch can happen a lot in epee. That is the only issue with sport fencing IMHO is that it becomes a race to 5 touches, and that is why I switched to historic fencing since they realize that if you lose you likely die and therefore focus on having defense.
The spanish system "La Verdadera Destreza" was thought to be a "christian" way of defense. You would go more to disable your opponents than to outright kill them (like italians with Fabrizz or however the f*** its written). This gives you a much more defensive and secure system, you would either stop the fight or disable your opponent. With other systems, like the one mentioned before, you would either kill your opponent or die/get severely injured.
Andres Halabi Where is the reference / book for that information about Destreza?
+Neo Henry From the treaties of Carranza if I recall correctly... The sole name of the manual is something like "Treaty about true destreza and the defense of the christian". This is valid only for Verdadera Destreza tho, Vulgar (Common) Destreza resembles much more italian fencing like Capo Ferros where you may take a bit riskier lunges and ateos, but still on a pretty solid bases. Hope I tempestades clarify it a bit.
I prefer historical fencing than modern/olimpic fencing, and this is a great video about one if not the best fencing techniques, there's no doubt the Spanish system is deadly, I love it, and I use some of these moves for olympic fencing, and it works, thanks for uploading this video. 5 STARS in my opinion.
According to one scholar, dancing in the 1600s is influenced by the fencing. There is a text on Spanish 17th century dancing that shows the dance footwork used the same terminology as the fencing manuals. This is described as an attempt to market dancing to a Spanish aristocracy that had already embraced fencing. See The Art of Dancing in Seventeenth-century Spain
By Lynn Matluck Brooks.
There is an English expression of the time q explains this perfectly: "Spanish love at sea, and if not so, to protect us from St. George"
And amusingly the Spanish said "Englishmen I want at land, and at sea, Virgin Mary help us". Talk about mutual grudgy respect...
notfeedy notlazy sorry but nobody say that in spain. We said «todo buen español debe mear mirando a inglaterra ».😅🤣
@@thor2795 Yo siempre lo hago xD directito pa' inglaterra.
I had heard the Spanish expression, it is curious that the English have a similar and inverse expression XD
Grande Blas de Lezo
This is a great little intro to Destreza for putting the basic concepts of right angle, circular movements, no-lunge in their martial context, to dispel any notion that these are no more than stylistic affectations.
This made me think of the Alatriste novel series by Arturo Perez-Reverte, and Alatriste’s rivalry with the italian Malatesta.
Interesting video. I can really see the relationship between Spanish sword work and the Filipino Martial Arts that I study. Obviously the differences in the sword shapes and styles necessitate alterations but there are a good deal of similarities as well. Nice video and it is good to see Western Martial Arts making a comeback in recent years. I feel that in general, Western fighting abilities have been overlooked and downplayed to the benefit of Eastern methods.
Natasel. Giacomo Di Grassi says that a Gentleman should be able to improvise a weapon with whatever is at hand as he may not always have his sword. He probably didn't have goats in mind when he wrote that but probably would have advised us that time & measure apply to goat swinging too.
All of it depends on periods of course, but the Europeans folded steel way back like the Japanese. Why? To make their blades stronger of course. Later on Europeans had no need to fold any longer as they found ways to make great steel. The Japanese continued to do so. As for fighting styles I would say the europeans styles are superior, but as always it depends on the fighter.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
Bruce Lee agrees that the European swordsman is the deadliest of all. JKD is fencing plus western boxing. The rest was for movies.
It is an obvious commitment for every true proponent of the art to make a martial, spiritual and technical review on the teachings of legendary maestros like Don Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza and Luis Pacheco de Narváez (16th century). There is no end to the vivacity, beauty and magnificence of ancient fencing. (épéeist - 33)
You don't see bent knees in Destreza. That is consistent throughout. I don't remember any illustrations in Carranza, but Narvaez, Ettenhard, Thibault (an offshoot of Destreza), all have a very upright stance, and I have seen the same guard in texts up to the 19th century.
I don't know how well it would work with the light blades of modern fencing, but it is quite effective with 16th & 17th century blades (and given the longevity, I assume 18th & 19th century blades as well.)
As someone who used to practice FMA, I can see the deep "strategic" influence.
probably not surprising. The Philippines were colonized by the Spaniards.....starting during the Renaissance....
Spanish rapiers don't move right forward. Moving sideways is a better approach to your enemy. That's basic stuff. You'll find the spanish style much safer than any other.
The spanish way is te best way of fencing.
If you ask me, there's a time and a place for both Spanish and Italian concepts. I've been looking at destreza for a number of months now and I'm adoring the system. However, I still believe there is a place for the other styles. I don't believe any system is the "best", since there are weaknesses in any system, but destreza is certainly a great one :)
unless you know the Italian way...and from a Spanish teacher Ha.
@@johnbland1585Spanish fencing was legendary back then... that’s the style that dominated the world
@@grigorirasputin7165 so was Italian and French fencing
Buffing up on those fencing skills, getting ready for that zombie apocalypse, eh? good, good
What a great teacher. Constantly checking understanding.
GLORIA AL IMPERIO ESPAÑOL!!!GLORIA A LOS TERCIOS!!!
The flick is a modern sporting innovation which relies on a light flexible blade. On the other hand circular cuts have a much longer history outside the sporting context. Replacing the full circular cut with a half cut is a valid option but that isn't what was described in the source text.
"One for all and all for one!"
D'artagan and the three 3⃣ musketeers.
the more fruity someone's stance looks, the better.
+FunnyAsSin
You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.
You are using Bonetti's Defense against me, ah?
+FunnyAsSin I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain
Lion Reichelt You are wonderful!
FunnyAsSin
Thank you! I´ve worked hard to become so!
Revisiting after a year: still a great vid. Diego Alatriste would be proud of you, Don Puck.
In the video there is also a discussion on engagement/parries. We must differentiate a French foil parry/engagement from the Italian system. French smallsword parries leave the tip on target and do not completely close the line. They are susceptible to forced glides. (See Gaugler's Science p.31). I was showing a specific action but if opposed by a French parry, there are a wide range of different options. In this case, I needed to stick to a particular technique as described in the text.
The movie Alatriste shows the advantage of the more aggressive and linear Italian style in CONFINED spaces that don't allow you to traverse. Alatriste gets his ass handed to him when the Italian charges in because the pillars prevent him from traversing.
His adopted son Inigo, however, shows the superiority of Destreza in open terrain. He traverses and turns to the right as if withdrawing and then gets the Italian with a backward swing with the dagger and hitting him in the sword-arm, making him helpless after that.
This is a pretty nice little video. I like his teaching style, and I am sure I can apply some of this to long sword.
@lysandermckain He is moving slowly because he's teaching technique and principles - it's the first and gentlest stage of training for combat.
I asked about your background because real combat techniques (performed like this) often look silly to someone who does heavy sparring but hasn't learnt a pre-existing martial art. I've only dabbled in fencing but these techniques seem to reflect common martial principles: timing, posture, leverage, yielding rather than opposing force, etc..
Commenting in 2020, I love how this video has over 300k views. Puck Curtis is the man!
im not saying rapier is superior to katana fencing im saying that in theory a rapieist is more able to predict the katanas moveset by looking at the montante or longsword fighting wheras the samurai never developed a sword like the rapier as you say the spear is the closest thing to a rapier in japan, either that or some varients of the tachi or katana which were straighter and thinner than normal
but thats a good point the samurai using moves against a spearman to try and figure out a rapier
+elgostine
Currently there are 47 different styles of Japanese koryu that from the 14th to the 19th century specialized not only in using katana, but in other types of weapons, unarmed martial arts and even strategic board games.
You only learn that when you are a kendoka.
Que lastima que sea en el puto inglés,no hay traducción?
I really liked this video. Good job Don Puck Un Zapo!
spanish are the best, everybody knows
We were the way to go in that time but nothing lasts forever
There is no Defense against the Spanish system
Why would you slide your blade down to his forte? .-.
Being in a position in which you can use his push to build the momentum of your own cut, or make it difficult for him to feel your disengage.
Hello from 2019!
Hard to believe this was more than a decade ago.
"En garde!" ⚔ "Arrgh!" 🏴☠️ ☠️ 🦜
Honestly, the fight would favor the rapier. The rapier can strike faster than the katana, and stabs are much more difficult to block than slashes. If the fencer controls the pace, he wins. The katana would have to take the initiative and try to stay off line with diagonal steps in as he attacks.
There are plenty of HEMA schools in the area and the SCA as well. My advice would be to avoid ARMA. They seem like a good organization at first blush and they have made meaningful contributions. Unfortunately, they do not play well with others in significant ways. Be fair and google them and John Clements' books first to get a bigger picture. Generally, I try not to dissuade people from a particular school but this is my sole exception.
"Arrgh!" 🏴☠️ ☠️ 🦜
that would be like bruce lee's fast lead jabs vs. mike tysons 1 hit knockout out punches except with blades.. i think european fencing would win cause of footwork and there unconventional angles of attack to the wrist
@demomanchaos actually there were a couple shields associated with Fencing, the small buckler, and the larger Rotella, I think it would be Rodela in Spanish. The works of the Italian master CapoFerro illustrate the use of the Rotella and Rapier.
nice in Kung Fu there are a lot of techniques which are similar to the technique at 3 min 8 sek
lol its funny how similar I do my rapier to destreza.. . I always hang out in terza and I do study a lot of Scherma, which Destreza was based off of.
It is not modern fencing, but it is historic Spanish Destreza of the late 16th & early 17th centuries.
Modern fencing is largely evolved from French and Italian schools that were more linear in their approach. Destreza took a more circular approach that led well to cuts.
Also that the blades were heavier and had edges and a taper, which greatly affect the blade mechanics.
What he is teaching is taken directly from the writings of Narvaez, one of the most respected masters of his day.
modern fencing it's shit compared like oldschool
3:12 is all you need
Seeing how effective the Verdadera Destreza was, one can just regret that Quevedo didn't write any fencing book
[explaining the joke intensifies] Quevedo, one of best satirical writters of XVII century, was also so good a fencer than when he disagreed with Pacheco de Narvaez (the master of the Verdadera Destreza) about his preceived demerits of the system, he proved it by easily remove Narvaez's hat with a botonazo (thrust with blunt rapier)
"The other" destreza was even more effective, the one used in streetfights and war.
@@christiana.v.w1607 Quevedo *did* use the Verdadera Destreza, just had more practical experience. One with actual experience *and* good teachings will win against one lacking either of those. Often the ones lacking training think that their experience is enough because they'rve won against people with training but without experience. People like Quevedo or Lope de Vega are more than eager to prove them wrong.
Italian is to generic. There is also Neapolitan witch has it's foundation in the Spanish army.
Neapolitan? Spanish army? The heck are you talking about? The Italians practically invented the art of cut and thrust. The Spanish and even the French school were derived from and influenced by the Italian tradition.
@@Lion718 I'm not sure what you're saying is true. Spanish swordsplay is entirely different. It is the opposite of the italian swordsplay.
@@Lion718 "Jerónimo Carranza's seminal treatise De la Filosofía de las Armas y de su Destreza y la Aggression y Defensa Cristiana was published in 1582 under the sponsorship of Don Alonso de Guzmán El Bueno, 7th Duke of Medina Sidonia , but according to its colophon was compiled as early as 1569. Pacheco in a letter to the Duke of Cea in Madrid on 4 May 1618 stated that Carranza's system was based on the work of Italian fencing theorist Camillo Agrippa."
@jagerma5ter I am pretty sure that he is using either a rapier or sidesword blade from Darkwood Armory. You can look them up on-line, and they have a very nice selection of blades designed for sparring.
This guy really knows his stuff. 5 stars.
Spanish dude: You're using Bonettas defense against me huh?
Maestro Puck's wife Mary is working on translating Carranza, and I believe much of Narvaez. Her specialty is in Golden Age Spanish. However, I don't know what the timing is.
The answer is far from that simple. Are they armoured? In what style? If the samurai gets to use two hands on his katana, does the duelist get a main gauche? Or do they both get off-hand weapons? And remember that the best katanas were made from imported Spanish steel -- a good katana isn't "harder" than a good rapier (whatever that means), but it is likely heavier and a lot shorter.
I read that Toledo, Damascus and Japanese sword steal were of the same source - Meteorite lumps from Near Toledo. That´s why its so difficult to duplicate. Anyone?
Funny how things evolve very similar in different times and places. This kind of footwork is very similar to a chines martial art called baguazhang. They use circular footwork to create angles from wich to attack.
This is great stuff by the way.
THX for posting
silk
I second your posts, "it's sad times when people make comments about such that they know not of, or of people they haven't taken the time to learn about." Amen.
BRAVO!
Un ruso comentando en español en un video de habla anglosajona ¿hola?
It actually happened in 1896, count Santelli, captain of the guards of Vienna vs. Japanese emperor's chief retainer. Santelli won 96:4, I think. But it was probably more due to rapier being better weapon than katana. Because of that difference, average samurai were fairly better swordfighters than average Europeans (since they have larger drawback to overcome), but master on master - weapon specifications play large role.
I can find zero reference to any of that.
We have iñigo montoya
The south of "Italy" (Napels) was Spanish at that time of the fencing.
Having a period accurate Late European Knight with no armour facing a Samurai with no armour would be more interesting and more comparable. I would guess that the Knight would win because the fighting style is so much more centered because of his cross guards. So minuscule a difference, and yet a tremendous advantage.
I'm going gut you like salmon
We would like to offer our weight in chocolate chip cookies for Maestro Puck to relocate to our shire. This video proved very useful to us. Thanks for putting it up!
chinese ba gua step is very similiar it makes complete sense how he cuts the angle combining circle and line
True. I don't think of the Italian (esp. Capoferro) use of the rotella as relying on the the shield, but as using it to support the blade, which is still the primary defense. I may have been missed demomanchaos's meaning, but the image I had was closer to a left foot forward version of CF's position F. I see that more often and see it requiring tempos to attack.
Against someone using CF's Rotella, I work towards constraining the blade as normal, and direct more attacks to the outside line.
@murrayro The terms are different, but the Spanish do use the same hand positions. In workshops, he always lets the students know that he is coming from a classical italian background which could influence interpretation.
I think part of the reason for describing it that way is most people in the room were familiar with Italian rapier, but not Destreza. Also Italian hand positions are not the same as the French ones commonly used in modern fencing. Ex. Terza has the palm facing in, not down.
Wow, I would love to take a class like this. I need to move out of the sticks.
The only text I know for sure "barrely about" it is L´Academie de l´Espee, but Im pretty sure your mate know it well. What I was trying to say is that Destreza is a "de facto" lost art as far as I know. But its great to see the efforts of some maestros trying to take it back to light, taking as a start the bases of the antique italian fencing art, and correct me if Im wrong, some Portuges remains about it.
Pace^^
well the older the dance the closer to fighting it is, the footwork in the tango is very similar to the circle walking in bagua
so i was making the leap trying to see what influenced the footwork
this is a great video, wish there were more like it explaining Spanish Fencing
but i have a question
what is french, Italian, the rest of europe's fencing like?
Spanish Empire!!!
I love unintentionally finding SCA videos or mentions
That last move he did at the end was sweet because no one saw it coming.
Stepping off the line of attack to the left is classical and fatal. Stepping off the line of attack is modern and successful.
Although I agree with this analysis, was that the point of this exercise?
With that last bit all I can think is "what time is it? Oh it's headshot time"
Martial Arts= Human Mechanics
Okay. I was thinking more of the bladework than the footwork. I will look into that.
この…なんて言い表せばいいか分からないけど、この、この…っ！雰囲気、好き。
剣があって…人がいて…(●´ω｀●)素敵✨
Military conquests are more often a result of formations using pike and shot than single combat. I think studying Destreza would be very useful for a soldier but you're not going to place an atajo over an incoming bullet. When Jeronimo Carranza did take down a group of pirates in the Honduras they used a collection of long cattle-herding tools repurposed as pikes.
really interesting
The prime parry was very interesting, I've yet to see that in a modern fencing match (unless they're taking to piss)
This is a tough question to answer without sounding jaded....
There is a lot of simularity between period fencing, and moden fencing. Terms change, technique not so much.
As a fencer with about 20 years experience, still when I mention that, I get the attitude of "oh, you can't think laterally" or "oh, that doesn't translate, you can't use foil/epee techniques with a rapier" or at the worst "oh... Olympic fencing. Yeah, whatever." It's a bit of bigotry in the SCA that's still very present.
Woah that armor in the back! Not relevant I know but. Compliments!
@036265 Most of us, actually. Why would we want to pay $15/mo to play a game of fake fighters with fake weapons and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it, when we fight our real friends with real swords? We treat sword play of the middle ages with the same amount of devotion to learning technique as martial artists of Asian systems.
Its not supposed to be sword fighting, Nor do the serious practitioners pretend they are sword fighting,.They are sports that are descended from swordfighting in the same way tent pegging and dressage are descended from military warhorse training.
That is just the way Gatka warriors move. It is called Pantra.
mark my word . their clothing is going to be a retro (from way back when) fashion hit fall 2021. you'll see those ramants on the male and female models on the catwalks of Paris, Milan and Paris soon . cloaks will be added for fall winter 2021-2022 . spring summer 2022 as you see here, without the cloaks
Are the silly costumes necessary? That red thing is ridiculous.
Have a feeling that half of them enrolled just to wear fancy dresses :p
1000 years in the waiting (historical joke)
Spaniards, the only western country that fight with samurais in Cagayan Battle
Los tercios 👌
Sorry, meant to finish that sentence with "stepping off the line of attack to the RIGHT is modern, and successful."
This seemed to be discovered during the seminar. Was this the point of the exercise?
I searched the name Heveran and the outcome and results was this.
"You are a pirate!" 🏴☠️ ☠️ 🦜
i dont understand why this has negative votes
Not relevant since Aragorn was not trying to use Thibault to counter the Uruk-hai's Capo Ferro.