The Myth of DBD's Balance
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- In this video, I make the argument that Dead by Daylight is actually balanced - though this balance hinges on an extremely unfair axis and swings very wildly to each side. There's also two matches from a recent showcase hosted by @hens333 that features Team Eternal vs XenoDBD (Spirit) and V1rtual (Blight).
00:00 Discussion
05:22 No-limit Spirit vs Eternal
13:15 No-limit Blight vs Eternal
Check out all 5 matches on Hens' channel: • Killer vs Survivor - "...
Watch live: / otzdarva
Join our community: / discord 
Игры
That's footage of my last match on Hawkins... Good times... 😭
bro i thought its back i imediatly searched for ways to get on it 😢
I honestly miss Hawkins sometimes
Good times? That map was awful
omg i cried. i miss hawkins so much
Man, I miss Hawkins... 😩
Yes Otz, Yun Jin is equal in strength to Pyramid Head, as Yun Jin has no guilt about the lives she ruined.
We love lore accurate Yun Jin.
Actually it's because they both have MASSIVE asses
@@hexmommy username checks out
she will have her appearance in the remake of silent hill 2 as Pyramid head's final form
@@Meowsamurai Imma guess they were shitting on this comment. Am I right?
@@kevinherms1642 yep
I love this line lol. “You don’t need Barbecue if you are faster than light! You are the barbecue.” Otz - 2023
then he proceeds to not find the gen and they finish it :/ rip pain res info functionality
I think a big part of balance complaints comes from the difference in killers and perks. The difference between a good nurse and a good sadako is hilariously bad, and the difference between STBFL, corrupt intervention and something like stridor or blood echo is huge. It doesnt feel good having such a massive disparity between these choices, and if you want to win then you feel funneled into the meta perks
As a Sadako main I disagree. I mostly win by large margin, granted while abusing weird perks sets and add ons
The wr winstreak with nurse is not much higher than with Sadako, but yes the killers are unbalanced between each other, however most the complaints I hear for some reason aren't even about that.
i get your point but blood echo on legion/plague is so good 😩
most killers in this game are absolute garbage
I wrote my own comment on this, but I would tend to agree. Swapping your addons or perks is not nearly as high an ask to some players as it is to swap killers, as the disparity between killers like Pig/Myers and Blight/Nurse feels like a totally different game. Some killer players just don't enjoy a large variety of killers - for them, the others may as well not be in the game. For those players, the game does feel unbalanced, and it may well truly be. Hopefully, a lot of this disparity can be addressed without significantly sacrificing the variance of the game and the identity of its killers.
I’ll be honest I saw the Hawkins map in gameplay and got really damn excited for a second.
Me too
Miss that map everyday
@@the_big_bad_reaper Both of u are crazy my guys..
@@the_big_bad_reaperbest myers map
definitely miss that map
@@maniqdbd7220 it’s not that I’m that big a fan of the map. It just gets me excited to see because it would mean Stranger Things was back in DBD.
Greatest BHVR´s challange in this game is not make it 50/50 for each side (wich I think its impossible) but not making player´s experience being miserable.
100% this is what the balance of DbD should be, not having the game be a miserable sweat fest, it should be fun, not "i need to bring the strongest perks and items, camp and tunnel just to have a 60% chance to win"
@@ALE199-ita I play 50/50, 3k hours right after Twins DLC. It´s kind a snow ball effect you know? Killers know that gens will fly if they pick a good survivor, survivors know that they will be tunneled because the killers doesn´t want to do 0k and then finally all toxicity takes the whole atmosphere of the game. My last matches always have someone disconnecting for minimal things or killers giving up when they realise that they will lose less time waiting some seconds to have a new game then doing the whole match process until the end. I feel like the whole community is kind intolerant with the game, part of this is BHVR fault because they had taken the game in this direction and now is kind a no way out street.
@@alexandretellini2677 a conceed button would help (triggering a vote on survivors end).
Sometimes you just don't want to stand at a gate with t-bagging survivors that won't leave the same you don't want to stick around on the ground while killer chase for 4th K
Totally agree. The downfall of balancing in games like overwatch is sacrificing fun for the sake of "balancing"
Exactly
A lot of it is also killer dependant. Your highest skilled skilled vs highest skilled survivors will have very different results if it's nurse vs if it's pig. Some killers at high mmr are simply destined to fail, while others are unstoppable.
Not much a survivor can do if they get tunnelled with a active trap.
I agree. Some killer players just don't enjoy a large variety of killers - for them, the others may as well not be in the game. For those players, the game does feel unbalanced, and it may well truly be.
Don't pretend like Nurse can't be beat
If that was true, wouldn't winrates reflect this? At 2:20 we get a very good chart (also one at 0:36 but I'll refer to the prior one for this comment) depicting who is where in the top 5%. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Trapper is in a good spot, or that Bubba and Demo are particularly strong. But at the highest MMR levels, which indicate the players who perform the best, Nurse and Sadako are equal. Heck, PIG is at 60%, only 1% below Nurse. Nurse is only "strongest" because her power can circumvent looping altogether and she's been around so long that almost everyone knows how to play her. Blight is only "strongest" because he has the best add-ons in the game and because he provides a consistent speed boost. But those two aren't even top 3 in win rate. And as the video showed, a Spirit can make for a very good game, with non-meta perks.
@@BenAnderson48 That's top 5% of the respective killers mmr. Top 5% of uncapped Nurse mmr will land somewhere in the 2000+++ mmr range. Top 5% of Trapper mmr isn't going to be anywhere above 1700 mmr (1900 is max capped mmr).
The survivors you will play at 1700 mmr are likely uncoordinated good players. The only survivor groups at 1900 mmr are going to be very experienced and coordinated survivors.
That being said, Nurse or Blight averaging 60% kill rate at top 5% is utterly unbelievable. There are tons of players with killer win streaks of hundreds of games. Nurse and Blight are expected to 4k at 1-3 gens left in competitive matches unless they're on a terrible map.
I think part of the problem regarding balance is what each side, Killer and Survivor, deem a "win" as. If the killer believes they need to get 3 or 4 kills for that game to be a "victory or win" then I believe most will lean towards the idea of the game being survivor sided. If you have some survivors who believe you need to get all 4 teammates out alive for a "win", they are going to think the game is killer sided. So what does Behavior consider a "win"? Is there such a thing in the game? Should killers be happy getting 1 or 2k as the standard? Should survivors be happy with 3 getting out? 2? I don't know. As a mostly killer main, I am quite happy with 2k as long as I played the way I wanted.
This is a great point. Each side not being happy and not getting "enough" is a big part of what feels bad about this game. Killers dont want anyone leaving, and survivors would love to just get 1 or 2 out! lol. awful state for the game to be in right now.
That is a good point especially with how hook states can be where you can have 8 hooks and 0 kills even though you did good but with no kills it feels like a loss
@@FunkadelicPeach It's sorta like even though it's a game which doesn't have a clear "win" condition, Only maximization of points or a "High Score", That people think there needs to be one since a clear win/lose con has become so prevalent in the majority of other titles that we just passively gravitate towards such a mindset.
If you play DBD, Know its for the experience of interchangeably being scared or playing the thing to be scared of, Play DBD for a sense of fun, And not for a sense of "Winning".
General sentiment in the groups I play with tends to be: 2k/2out is a tie, 3k/3out is a win, 4k/4out is a crushing victory/defeat.
But I know that a lot of people really don't even consider "ties" they think only in win or lose.
Win condition as killer is what Otz did with his 50 win streak: 3k or 4k if all gens get done; If all gens get done and at least 1 of the players opens the door and leaves=It's a loss. The thing is that Survivors wanting to get the 4man out is not considered a win, you do it when you see that the killer struggled a lot and you can just all escape, specially now that you have base BT and you can just hold W to the exit gate and be completely safe...That's also an oportunity for the killer to get more kills because survivors thought they already won and if the killer gets lucky and knows to spot a opportunity, it can be very well a 4k for the killer, but if you play as survivor and you're smart, leave the killer with his only 1k and escape.
The gap between the best and the worst in DBD is immense. The best killer and the worst killer aren't even playing the same game. Same with perks the worst perks basically do nothing and the best ones can carry a game.
Yeah I also commented something similar, it's the idea that certain builds and characters are way better than others. I WANT to play twins, I want to buy them, but they are so buggy and have never gotten buffed from their current spot, it keeps me from buying them. Even though I like her perks and abilities. I already made that mistake buying Pig, Trickster, and Nightmare (even though he's my main). And I just don't wanna throw money at something I know I'll hate later on.
@@theonlyMoancore good twins players are insanely oppressive. Twins are super solid, compared to a Pig
@@JH-dr4xo I know but their current state they run the risk of getting stuck for the whole game. I know when they fix them I'll genuinely be excited to buy them. With pig I was too excited with the concept of the ability I forgot to apply how useful it would be.
The worst perks can even actually hurt you
True these balances might be when you play the best killers but the majority it’s not the same
Personally after several thousand hours of gameplay and many more spent making up sources, I think DBD is balanced towards survivor because even though the killers are big and heavy I do not know if they weigh as much as four people
You made clown real happy
@@hexmommy hex: mommy left you for milkers
please, fix this comment.
hmm...I hope no one forgets that most of the player base plays solo queue, which I must say have probably less than a third of the efficiency of Eternal. And this is why I believe the game would always be balanced towards killers regardless of the balance changes. In other words, a average killer player could play 75% like the blight in the video but an average solo queue survivor team would likely perform far worse than properly trained team. Four people if trained together is stronger than 1, but four strangers never, regardless of how good they individually are.
Making up sources?
Honestly my main issue with the game is just how fast the games go when I play killer and how one decision can cause you to win or lose the game.
I feel like this is even more true for survivor. A survivor making a mistake means they get hooked maybe 40 seconds earlier than they should've. That means that any gen being worked on wouldn't have popped when it could've. A killer making a equal mistake would be, for example, a nurse failing to predict a 50/50. This would probably only prolong the chase by 10 seconds. I think survivors at the highest level (both killer and survivor at highest mmr) have an advantage over killers because the skill ceiling is higher for them but a bad killer facing a bad group of survivors will almost always win since survivor has a much lower skill floor than killer. Any mistake made by any of the 4 survivors will be brutal for them.
@@ALynn127 I don’t really agree with this although I can see what point you’re trying to make but killers time is more valuable so any mistake you make really matters of course the example you gave when you’re playing nurse mistakes you make don’t really matter or blight or spirit but if you’re playing any of the other killers, I think your mistakes matter more than survivors
@Bryson Emery 100% dude you have four people on survivors side so if one screws up the other 2 can still work on gens while the 3rd fixes said mistake
@@peterjonesly I’m just saying the killers time is four times more valuable than the survivors that’s just basic math because there’s one killer and four survivors so if you make a mistake as the killer, it wastes more time then as the survivors. Also, not everyone plays nurse. In fact, most people most killer means that want to have any skill involved don’t play nurse, because nurse is incredibly overpowered.
@@ALynn127 you do realise that if a survivor or two fuck up, the other 2 will be a band aid to that problem, right ?
If the devs wants the game to be competitively balanced, they HAVE to separate ranked and unranked. Because perfect balance doesn't matter if there's no fun to keep players interested.
I agree ranked would also give them accurate data on what’s the best and what isn’t
The sweats will just play in unranked to shit on people
@@Cynorkissilly argument, there’s no evidence of that being a major problem in other games. Just give the sweats skins and extra blood points
@@kingBing101 other games don’t have a role where a lot of players hate and want to punish the opposing side though
The sweatiest players will queue up for unranked because it will give them the greatest chance of stomping their opponents. That's how it works in virtually every game with ranked/unranked matchmaking.
The main issue why people view DBD as killer/survivor sided is wrong expectations. If a 60% win rate for killers is the developers goal, this means a killer kills around 2 people each round, but as always statistics dont work like that, so the expectation should actually be about 2400 kills in 1000 rounds of dbd or around 1600 escapes in 1000 rounds for the whole survivor team.
Yeah, the main issue why survivors see DBD as killer sided is due to the way the first kill can happen, while killers see DBD as survivor sided due to the way the first 3 gens can pop.
I have heard a killer call my SWF a bunch of genrushers, the first 2 gens popped in the first 50 seconds of the game(2/2 split, killer didnt check our gens) the 3rd gen popped about 80 seconds later(which, is slow considering we could have finished it in the next 50 seconds again), 4th gen popped 70 seconds later and the final gen popped a whole 200 seconds later. Thats nearly 7 minutes before the final gen pops. The match lasted 10 minutes and the killer had 0 kills. The average match lasts 12 minutes. This was before the gen rework too, if we truly wanted, we could finish the first 3 gens in 80 seconds and the next 2 gens in 70 seconds total(2/1 split to pop the 4th gen in 45 seconds and then finishing the final 45% of the remaining gen with 3 people within 25 seconds). That would have taken us 3 minutes at most.
Same for survivors calling me a tunneler because I killed someone at 4 gens remaining, even though I hooked everyone once before I even hooked someone for a second time. They just had 1 gen at 80% and due to me hooking someone nearby, I could keep it at 80% consistently and they kept looping around that area even though there were no more pallets left. This game lasted about 5 minutes.
Considering the entire context of those matches, that killer I faced claimed the game was survivor sided due to his own actions, while the survivors claimed the game was too killer sided because of their own actions.
The reason why I would call the game somewhat killersided right now, is due to solo survivor and the design of certain killers. The killers arent fun to play against, causing them to kill morale easily which creates easier kills, especially killers like Skull Merchant that require comms to counterplay, and solo survivor simply making a mistake that their teammates are unaware of and them not being able to communicate that mistake.
If I get tunneled in my SWF, you can bet your ass that at least 1 teammate will tank a hit. But soloq? Thats a mistake my teammates make that they are unaware of and nothing I can do about it. There still are some killers that are too weak for the current meta, and playing as those killers make it FEEL like the game is survivor sided. Depending on what killer I pick, and depending how I want to play has a lot more impact on the endresult of that game than what the survivors bring. Not by a lot, but more enough than it should.
the main reason i'd say is that what is shown in this video is the exception. Survs AND Killers bringing the strongest stuff they have is rare, more often its: the killer brings strong stuff and the surv try meme build or the other way around so the game feels unfair cause sometimes it is. if you play meyers and u play without addons and no gen slowdown vs a try hard swf bringing the strongest surv stuff there is, of course that game is not fair.
Lots of killers also feel like they lose if they get 2 kills even though it is the most balanced outcome.
@@fart63 well can you blame them for feeling like they lost when the meg and the claudette teebag them at the gate? ._.
@@freakdavid4085 yea it does suck anytime I bring anything but the strongest stuff every gen pops in 2 s comes and I do they to use my fun builr
I imagine the reason it feels like balance is so bad is because it's so binary. Either you win handily, or you lose with nearly no chance, and the variance in power with perks, addons, items, maps, and more kind of make it feel... crappy, especially when most of these are based on decisions made prior to entering the game. Even if it's technically balanced, it certainly isn't indicative of the average match's experience. Honestly, the nature of the game doesn't lend itself towards perfect balance, and I feel a perfect mix would lead to some pretty miserable homogeny, but I think the power swing is over the top as it is now.
yeah with the old pip system you could win the match and derank because you did nothing but suck on gens. or get stomped by survivors and get all four pips because you 8 hooked and chased the entire game. It encouraged interaction between the two sides and discouraged bad behaviors, The new MMR has done nothing but focued on kills and escapes and that has caused only worsening behaviors by everyone involved.
That's true. When I play killer, I have an average of 2 kills per game only because I can do absolutely nothing to insane skilled survivors in one match and just easily obliterate all 4 of them in the next match.
@@NameIsDoc Don't praise the old pip system, pips meant nothing and anyone could hit rank 1.
The solution is to account for match result, personal result and pips for MMR, fixes every issue that people whine about.
@@The_B_Button outside of that one issue yeah but for the most part Pips encouraged people to play the game as a game instead of as a gen pop simulator
@Doc_Ock_Rokc the problem is that pips weren't just encouragement, they were also the ranking system. You could fill your pips and still lose handily to a killer, then be matched against stronger killers. Alternately, you could win in such a way where you get few pips, then be matched against weaker opponents despite winning
Every time I see a balance video it’s (mostly, not entirely but MOSTLY) referring to SWF vs Killer which is very telling about solo queue matches.
I literally solo all the time since 2018 and I still am able to dominate getting to Rank 1 easily. Killer is literally to impossible to play and I am lucky to get to Gold Ranks. Either fix the game or people are just going to play the op survivor role
The fix: give solo queue players some kind of bonus to put them on par with SWFs. Such as basekit Bond, maybe slightly faster gen repair speed, etc.
@@nuclearpugg Getting to rank 1 isn't really impressive as it doesn't relate to skill in any way. MMR doesn't use rank but rather another hidden value. Pretty much getting to rank 1 on either side is just how long you grind for at this point and if you are still somehow struggling to get the ranks on killer then it's just an issue with your will to play the game. Stop looking for reasons to complain about balance and fix your own inability to learn.
@@nuclearpugg ok ?? you’re just shit at killer ..
Solo queue has never been as bad as people like to believe it is.
They just have an unrealistic expectation.
Even before the recent OP information changes, solo queue survivor was still very easy to win regularly.
With the new busted information it's even easier.
People talk about swf because it is CLEARLY the biggest problem
I never particularly cared about how balanced DBD is, rather how fun, and truth be told when people aren't trying to optimize everything it is fun.
I spend a lot of time in custom matches with friends where we do weird builds and use perks we never see and it's honestly a blast each time around.
same here!!
Ok but custom matches, you are not actually playing dbd then. If survivor AND killer are friends sitting in discord, nothing matters.
@@one_vegan_boi1097 You can't say that. Just because it's not how YOU play Dbd, doesn't mean that's how everyone needs to experience dbd. That's like saying people that only play custom games on halo, aren't actually play halo, it's weird and just not true. They are creating their own experiences in the game, just not participating in the ranked portion of the game.
Except there's one side that can completly ruin the other side fun with nobody being able to do anything to stop it.
How does a survivor player that want to have fun counter a face camping Bubba? How does a survivor player that want to have fun counter a tunneling killer? How does a survivor player that wants to have fun counter rancor?
One side can ruin the other's fun, meanwhile all the other side can do is... press Ctrl repeatedly to crouch and stand up.
@@DeBolttheBear The vast majority plays killer, soloq or swf. Very few people actually play custom with a 5man. So yes, at that point they are not playing dbd the way 99% of the playerbase plays dbd hence their experience will differ greatly in what is fun/balanced/oppressive. For example: You would never hard camp or hard tunnel someone out if they are your friend. Or you would never hold a 3gen as the knight or skull merchant for 20 minutes.
Of course they still play dbd, duh, but you don't experience the bad balancing nearly as much.
Hens: The Blight doesn't know which gen..
Otz: It doesn't matter you can just checK! you don't need barbecue if you travel faster the light!... YOU ARE THE BARBECUE!!!
the amount of grammatical errors in this comment blew my mind
It all boils down to the asymmetrical nature of the game, it's nigh impossible to perfectly balance both killer and survivor. Even then I feel that balance isn't everything, sometimes balance isn't fun so there ideally needs to be that middle ground of fun and balanced, but that's a tall order for any game company.
Balance can be fun, the important thing about Balance is that neither side is too strong that cause the other to not have fun, if by balance you make both sides unfun (like it currently is) you failed
Yeah I agree, because of the base nature of the game, it most likely isn’t possible to find a perfect balance. Consider why games like rocket league are pretty much perfectly balanced imo.
It is not impossible, super easy actually. The issue is that people want their shitty skills carried by op perks/items/add ons, and will always blame outside factors for their lack of success. So the real problem is the giant gaps in skill and shitty attitudes. How many times have you been flamed by survivors who couldn't loop for shit, then they go complain on Reddit how the game is killer sided?
@@ALE199-ita Any side being too strong isnt always the issue, any side being able to impact the fun significantly is.
Tunneling is only fun for the survivor if the killer doesnt have a hard coded anti-loop, a tunneling Trapper will get a lot less hate than a tunneling Clown, even though Clown and Trapper are pretty much on the same level. This is because Clown negates good mindgames quite significantly and heavily punishes a bad one. But even with Clown, tunneling can be somewhat fun if the tiles can be linked in a loop. As in that scenario you can still gain distance after a good mindgame.
Wesker is both anti-loop and anti-w, he can quickly close a gap, and since his grab hitbox is bigger, even though you're on the opposite side of a window, he can grab you while sliding along the wall. This makes a tunneling Wesker extremely unfun to play against.
You dont need to neccesarily nerf or buff a killer significantly, but you do have to make them both fun to play and fun to play against. Skull Merchant is a huge example of this. A 4 man SWF could defeat one in 10-15 minutes, which is good. But solo survivors? Games can last 50 minutes if the SM forces a 3-gen early on, and often the survivors lose. Thats not fun gameplay.
SM in this example can be relatively easily balanced by not being able to place a drone within the region of a hacked drone for the next 40 seconds or so.
if people want a perfectly balanced game, chess is right there
The fact that the highest level of Killer has to play crazy strong Killers like Spirit, Blight, or Nurse is really telling.
Me and my piramid couldnt make even a quarter of what they did with those
Yep, all other Killers need a bit of a tweek and some like myers, freddy and pig need an outright rework
Anyone claiming to be high MMR in DBD do it for their ego and have literal 0 evidence to back it up.
By "highest level" they're referring to competitive players.
Like Mr otz
So THIS study resulted like this, but your huntress vs deathslinger video had: no restrictions on killers, but restriction on the survivors as well as the killers best choice map. Neither killer won any of the games.
Edit: the survivors played so cracked in the blight game 😮
Probably cause huntress and death slinger are weaker killers and we’re going against the best swf tournament group itw
"Yo, Mr. White! Do you ever consider the possibility that Dead by Daylight, due to its assymetrical nature and origin as an indie passion project was never meant to be truly ballanced, yet the rising popularity alongside design changes which deeply altered the game's visuals to be less atmospheric and horror oriented sparked a renewed focus on gameplay and its shortcomings, while sporting a community that actively hinders any sort of constructive discurse?" - "Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?"
It's almost as if the entitled x mains want to stay as the underdog so they can excuse their own lack of ideas as to how to truly fix the game
I really want to watch the rest of the games you guys did for this test, cause if they are like either of the two matches I just watched, then I'll have a full afternoon of edge of my seat entertainment.
Otz and Hens have VODs on their twitch channels
You could just play the game yourself....
@@RealEvilLordExdeath I already do, over 1.4k hours in fact.
@@RealEvilLordExdeath lol thts like telling ppl who like watching sports games to go play the sport themselves instead of watching
@@fuzzywuzzy4564 i dont watch sport. I do sport.
I agree that 4 survivors having 3% chance to make a mistake benefits the killer, but guess what? If a killer makes a mistake, there are 4 players that can actively get benefits from that mistake. That is the problem with analyzing this game in risk/reward/benefit terms, it doesn't usually play exclusively into a side.
Not to mention that a killer mistake costs you heavily, meanwhile you can just dead hard and be safe or use Off the record and have passive immunity while the other 3 push gens
Why so biased? Killer's mistake is only his own fault. But one survivor mistake is capable of destroying a whole team. Many of the killer mistakes are ignorable and can have an easy come back. A lot of turn the table perks are available for killers. But one single mistake from a survivor can messes up them and only possible come back is hatch escape. This game is not that survivor sided given that that killer is not a brain dead troll piece and knows what he is doing. This is especially true in the last 6 months. Maybe try survivors sometimes.
@@0_Nobody What? Killer mistakes are absolutely not ignorable, each match is a game of seconds. A mistake doesn't just mean you wasted one moment, it invalidated the last 20 seconds of chase, which means you gave the survivors almost 3/4 of a gen for free. You saying one survivor mistake can ruin a game is just outright false as well. You didn't even address his mention of perks like dead hard or off the record which can bail you out of literally any mistake. Even if survivors do make a mistake and don't have a perk to cover it, how many killers can actually benefit more than taking one health state from someone? Seriously, i'd love to know. Exactly what scenario are you imagining where one survivor mistake cost the whole team?
@@Apathy293 So imagine the killer proxy camping the hook. A less experienced survivor runs in to unhook, but they get grabbed or downed instead. The killer knows what he's doing and drops the survivor on the ground to prevent the unhook and decides to slug to get the 4k. As a survivor you are forced to either go for the unhook and trade since your teammate failed, but risk not getting unhooked yourself. Or you have to continue doing gens and ignore your team, which means eventually they will all die and you have to look for hatch which is usually a 50/50. But trust me, one survivor mistake can screw over the whole team. Especially if one of them is not really trying or brings a meme build. You also have the type of mistakes survivors make where they end up ragequitting and DCing at 5 gens. Good luck trying to win against a sweaty killer after that. I've made many killer mistakes myself, and ended up getting a 4k in the end after all gens were finished because of survivor's mistakes. So in my experience it feels like survivors make mistakes more easily than killers. But it depends who you play with and against. Also dead hard is pretty much dead.
@@lumicore1333 That is not one survivor making one mistake. That is two survivors making five major mistakes. Also, each of those major mistakes haas at least one perk if not more that let's the survivor get away after making that particular fuck up. And, against two healthy survivors, more than half of all killers would have to trade those two survivors for just one down. So even your imaginary situation that was supposed to be stacked against the survivors is less likely than you claimed, and still stacked against the killer.
I think the easiest way to describe people's apathy with dbd is that it's described as a game of cat and mouse but it can feel like more of a game of Tom and Jerry with the volume of resources available and RNG deciding a win
Definitely, this video showed nothing but luck in both games. Spirit got extremely lucky a lot of times and blight got extremely unlucky, can't even fault the players nothing in their control
i think the issue arises from genuine skill differences, mmr i feel like still matches quite poorly very often. thus making it feel very unfair on either side
True put me in any of those games killer or survivor and it would be a horrible experience
Just like my friend who was matched with knightlight who played nurse while my friend was playing soloq. Matchmaking is indeed a huge factor.
@@evangingerson1271 exactly, matchmaking feels super bad sometimes.
That’s what I was thinking, it’s only a good average of kills because they forced a “perfect” matchmaking, whereas I’m convinced DBD matches survivors of vastly different skill levels occasionally
A lots of the time you will see lobbies with a 50 hour Meg, a 6k hour Nea, and a 2k hour Blight. Matchmaking is a big part of why the game feels really unfair at times.
Was just rewatching old vids, cheers mate
Devs after balancing such a sophisticated game using spreadsheets: "I think we did a pretty good job so far"
Hey otz, I saw all five games the other day live. They were all pretty exciting, hopefully you upload all of them at some point.
As someone who is still new to the game, only been playing a bit over 2 weeks now. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the game itself, obviously I'm not good enough to really talk about what is and isn't good, but I can say that whenever I'm playing Killer sometimes it does feel like the game is favoring survivors. Barely get first hook and 2 gens get done, then get second or third hook and 2 more are done. Chasing is extremely hard on a lot of characters which is why it's no wonder characters like Nurse or Skull Merchant are so popular. Being able to negate many mechanics of a chase, or just hard stalling seem to be the only ways to win against a team of good survivors. I've also been on the Survivor side when I just think "This guy has no chance of winning this game" because he's got 1 hook and we have 2 gens left and the 3 of us are working on 3 different gens. Which is pretty demoralizing when you're the killer in that situation.
At lower skill levels getting survivors is pretty easy or you have only medium length chases, but when you get to better players it just feels like chases go on forever and you have no chance of getting them. When someone has the map memorized and knows all the best loop spots, or even worse, when it's a 4 stack in voice chat you just instantly lose, you literally cannot win against a coordinated team in comms. Which made me realize why this game has no in game chat, because one of the main things working against survivors is no verbal communication. So when you have people that do have comms it feels hopeless really quickly.
But overall DBD doesn't really feel like a game that should be super balanced. Because if it was balanced then every chase would play out the same way (Though in higher MMR it does anyway just run to the same loop areas over and over but still at least there's some variety occasionally) which would get boring very quickly.
I would honestly love if you did these experiments with players that have around 500 hours! You might get very different results😅
Of course you would. Thats why the usefulness and balance of perks and addons are judged by the most experienced and most capable players in this regard.
As an example you would not gauge the Perfomance of Rallye Cars by letting them be tested by A lot of Grandmas and Granddads that are not able to utilize the Cars they are given to their fullest
@@DezKaiZer Unless you want DBD to be a game that only the best of the best can play then yes I think it should be tested by the majority of the actual player base : Playes who don't have thousands of hours who mostly play in solo que. Testing everything in high level swf settings with the strongest killers doesn't reflect what DBD is like for most of us.
@@LisasChillin This. The most common "counter" arguments I see from killer mains is that SWFs make the game harder to win, and the devs listen. SWF games are a significant MINORITY of the player base, and yet killers only complain about SWFs. The problem is very simple: the MAJORITY of the player base (solo queue) is unplayable literally because the devs base game changes around the minority of whining killers who don't like losing to SWFs.
@@LisasChillin Thats not the point when testing the BALANCE of something. You establish a baseline of potential and limits that way.
A game of DbD with different levels of Experience and Abilities will always be unbalanced because of the individuals. That does not mean that the game gets balanced Around the best players those are two completely different things.
@@DezKaiZer Actually, yes it does. That's just factually the case and we've seen it with many games over the years. Games get balanced for the top bracket and become unplayable at normal levels of play. Also, you may not test rally cars with grandmas, but you sure as fuck use normal, average people to test normal, average cars. DBD is not a rally car, it's a volvo you take your kids to school in.
My man. Otz you made me cry a tear with that king field ost used in the video. Such an underrated game
The kings field 4 menu music is so nostalgic, really good too see otz still has that love he had in the past for the souls series and from software.
Otz may be the only person in the world to still be relevant playing on Hawkins
i miss the map as much as you do 😭
Please make a video showcasing all 5 matches! Also I think the problem for many newer players is the average stats really hurts for them. 60% kills per game might be the same survivor and a random other most games. I know they just need to "get good" etc but that's hard when your chases last 10s and you don't have friends to practice 😑
In the end it said that all games are available on Hens Channel
I am extremely bad at survivor lol. I have around 750hrs and it's a grind, that's my biggest issue. I play both equally but still don't have all the great perks because I can't just drop $200 on everyone.
@@spookiuwu768 don't think that way. You can win games without perks, you don't need every meta perk etc. These people from the video could win pretty much every player in DBD without any perks, except for like top 500 other players. And when in the equal position only ~5-15 killers in the world could rival them. About the grind, I would give some quick tips: 1) use shrine of secrets more 2) focus on one build, and then focus on getting each perk from the build, so don't level up multiple survivors at once. 3) you should main only 1 survivor at this point, and don't unlock perks for others. When you reach tier 40 with a survivor, all of his perks are unlocked in the bloodweb, so you can go to your main survivor, spend like 100k bloodpoints and unlock all 3 of them instantly, instead of levelling up the survivor with perks you want to unlock to prestige 3. You can do that later, when you are satisfied with your unlocked perks. 4) if you didn't unlock all the unlocked perks on your main survivor yet, don't go for expensive items, instantly go for a perk in the bloodweb, and then unlock the second. Then you can either buy all the cheapest stuff, or the stuff you want. If you have any questions about the grind or the game in general, feel free to ask.
@@stan3540 didn't notice, thank you!
moron
That blight match was cool, can't wait to see the rest of the matches!
Something you left out, imo, that also plays a large factor is killer choice. Sure the game might be fine for Nurse, Blight, and Spirit, but maybe not for the rest of the killer roster. Survivors are just skins, so their power level is the same.
"Killer" is not the same as "Blight", some players just don't like playing the higher tier killers for various reasons such as playstyle of those killers. To those players, the game is much more skewed towards survivor than someone who plays Blight.
You are right that survivors dont have powers but you miss a very important detail.
I could literally turn your arguement arround and say: yeah this might be fine for cracked swfs but for soloq and two men survivors this game feels way more killer sided.
Survivors dont have a power but they have a team. Depending on how good the team work or coordination is the team can play on a different level.
"To those players, the game is much more skewed towards survivor than someone who plays Blight."
You are conveniently leaving out whether or not the survivors are playing in a swf or are soloq. Regarding killer choice, you can literally pick one of the worst killers such as Michael Myers and still get 4K if the survivors are all solo queue. But then the factors Otz discussed would come into play such as experience level of the solo survivors, mindset, perks, items, etc. But simply being soloq, there is practically no comms which is only the reason why these pros in the vid were able to stand somewhat of a chance against the Spirit & then defeat the Blight. Without comms, you are utterly screwed. No matter what people say, if DBD is balanced or not, one thing is for certain: soloq players are disadvantaged all the time. There is a higher chance for failure due to numerous possibilites. What if one of the soloq players disconnects due to not wanting to play? What if one of the players is lagging and it hurts the team? DBD being an asymmetrical assumes that the matches will be 1 killer vs a "team" of 4 survivors. But what if just one of those survivors doesn't feel like trying and memes or DCs due to any reason or is simply so bad they are non-existent?
@@leonthegamer2839You're not turning around their argument at all but rather making a separate point which is just as accurate and valid. Both what they said and what you said are 2 core issues that BHVR has yet to address, you've got 31 killers and only around 5 or less of them are actually strong. They can't make the rest stronger because it would be unfair to SoloQs, speaking of which a lot of perks have had to be nerfed because they were unfair to SoloQs (looking at old Pain Resonance, Eruption and such for example). The main problem here is that BHVR is desperately trying to find balance between 2 completely different groups with completely different needs. What's the result then? If they make killers too strong then it's ok for SWFs but SoloQs will get stomped hard, vice versa if they make killers too weak then it's ok for SoloQs but SWFs will stomp them. It's a team based game and survivors absolutely must have ways to communicate so we can put an end to this ridiculous juggling between the two survivor groups. It's exactly why the game feels killer sided for survivors or why it feels survivor sided for killers imo
@@ravensfan777 SWF breaks the game and it makes killer loose if they take it just a little serious. Solo Q is not as difficult as you try to make it, you just need at least 2 decent players who understand how to play and they can still manage a win if it's at least 1 escape by the exit doors after all gens get done.
@@1m073zh you gotta point there.
Still I did turn it arround though by stating that a strong swf is the nurse version of survivors instead of saying survivors are just skins which would ignore that aspect. I literally used the same wording and just replaced strong killers with swfs and the remaining killers with soloq.
Also I am afraid communication wont solve the issue by itself.
You could still get rather oblivious randoms, casual gamers or people just playing for their archieve. Being able to talk to them wont change a lot besides going absolutly mental probably.
So I think propper matchmaking would also be a key factor.
Imagine swfs would only be matched with good s tier and a+ tier killers players.
That would help a lot even without communication.
But the q-time prevents that I am afraid.
Other then that I agree. We got the issue on the killer side (perks being nerfed because they would be too strong on nurse or blight)
Killers are tried to be balanced arround swfs and soloq which is basically impossible.
Well erruption was actually an issue even for coordinated swfs because you cannot always call out you are going down properly.
I also think pain res was rather nerfed due to the 3 gen meta and didnt really have anything to do with swf vs soloq.
But yeah you are right there are two issue that are very similar. Strongest killers vs weak ones
Cracked swfs vs soloq.
I am afraid we will have to wait quite some time until those gaps are actually closed.
I've been playing this game for 5 years and never once thought it was going to die, let alone said it. Until this patch. This patch made me quit, and I know a whole bunch of people who can say the same. Not because of balance, but because the game just isn't fun anymore. They've taken out everything interesting and adding nothing new, and they think that "shaking up the meta" is all they need to do to keep the game going. They need to fix a ton of stuff, stop fixing the unintentional bugs that are purely fun and not problematic, make the game more interesting for survivors, give killers additional and more interesting add-ons, give survivors additional and more interesting items, add different game modes, etc. Balance patches just aren't going to cut it anymore. The game may not 'die' but player counts are definitely going to plummet, and they are already dropping by a significant margin by the day if you look at the numbers.
If anyone wants to know what I'm talking about when it comes to survivor items, go look at AZHYMOVS item idea video that was released a few days ago. THAT'S the kind of stuff BHVR needs to be focusing on, not constant balance patches and new killers/survivors.
YES THANK YOU
exactly
I love how Otz talks about balance then before the very first game starts we see the most broken thing in DBD. Map offering stacking. This is one of the things I do not think should be in the game UNTIL they properly fix most of the maps in this game. Maps are the most unproperly balanced thing in the game and have been for some time.
Offerings in general benefit survivors. They can use four different ones that each affect a single aspect of a match, meanwhile the killer only gets one.
Not all survivor player always used offering. How you garanty if all solo survivor always used offering? And if you remember all survivor have a same standard abilty like time doing gen, speed and etc. But killer have different speed. Thats already make a big different for killer side
Really good games, great to have u Otz with such excited commentary !
"Asymmetrical" horror game. Notice how I said asymmetrical, meaning that the killer should have most control in a game.
You should try this experiment with new survivors or none experienced survivors and have one experienced one and see how well the games are. Kinda like a simulation of solo queuing as an experienced player
Easy clean. He should do experiments with lobbies full of brand new players. Like he used to do with the one guy he was training to be a killer.
Yeah I don’t get the point of this video other than showcasing that the best in this game are good at the game? How does this even remotely translate to what the average player feels about balance. The average player is a solo-Q player, not a 4 man comp squad running sweaty perks and add ons going against even sweatier killers with busted add ons.
This game is built around only experienced players and that goes for survivor and killer but shitty to say new killers have a play style they can use from the jump…camping….tunneling…survivors on the other hand it’s built so only a few can escape but that’s only if the survivors play the game properly. Do loops, do proper altruistic plus instead of farming or letting you get to second state or even just the fucking dc…no one who actually plays this ducking game dcs….if they do then that’s another good reason to bring up. This game gets so many passes from its community and it’s actually sickening
I wouldn’t say it’s sided either way. Survivors have a lot more to use in order to ‘beat’ a killer but I feel like their mistakes are a lot more punished. On top of that, solo queue hurts a lot just because of survivor decisions for me. Whether it’s dc’ing, rage quitting, sandbagging - I can safely say that a lot of the games where I’ve died have been by poor play by myself or my team.
I’ve seen a rise in tunnelling killers and honestly, I think it’s because gen defence got nerfed as well as second chance. So it just became the most optimal strat to win. Which sucks for both sides.
Honestly, this. I couldn't care less about how many kills a killer is supposed to get (I play friendly killer anyway, my strat is pack bond with one person, then run around beating everyone else down, then letting pack bond heal them, rinse and repeat until I've gotten my brutality or everyone's gotten the memo. The only time I get kills is when a survivor is kind enough to take the hit) but honestly, when I play survivor, it feels like every killer BMs. It's always a killer that tunnels, face camps, pulls some other garbage to get their 4k that just isn't fun for anyone else; and that's not getting into the people that pick Box Bitch (aka Pinhead) and then AFK on their own box.
Oh bullshet I have want afk millions of times, played while eating and played with one hand yet I mostly escape or almost escape. Been playing since 2018 I have no problem getting to Rank 1 and I literally only play solo because I have no friends and you get quicker matches. Stop lying survivors like you are killing this game or making people not want to play killer
@@nuclearpugg ...I...I never said the game was killer sided at all. I said survivor feels more punishing - as most games where my teammates gives up or dc it's a guaranteed loss unless the killer turns friendly. Players like me aren't 'killing the game'...in fact, i'd like to think i'm one of the more optimistic thinking players in the game. I play both sides and I can see it from both sides. Survivors have more tools to win the game but it's still 60% winrate for killers...and I honestly think it's not because the game is built that way, it's just that there have been a lot of rage quitting survivors. They're whats ruining this game for other players - entitled players who throw tantrums when certain things don't go their way.
There's no need to be so aggressive or rude when you're not even reading what I wrote...
@@nuclearpugg Mate, you're part of the fucking problem and you admit it.
@@LittleMsJester01 survivor dictate the passing of the match if a killer makes a mistake he is punished hard ( losing a gen) every second matter as a killer, if a survivor makes a mistake maybe he get hit or put on a hook that much smaller punishment
we need to see all the matches!!
rip not showing what perks and addons do on the 2nd match, but w/e. thse killer matches were insane. would love love more vids like this! the commentary over insane playres is so cool
Loved the vid otz, Your channel is actually what is helping me learn DbD. I was wondering, im a new player and this is my first like update. Your last tier list was 6 months ago I was wondering if you could post an updated tier list . I hope you have a great day an thank you and your discord for helping learn DbD!
Personally I think it started out survivor sided with Insta flash lights and endless loops and spots that could trap a killer permanently but these days it’s a lot more balanced
And to be fair, There were the days of very strong BBQ & Chili killers too.
It's so balanced Killers can literally hold matches hostage for 40 minutes with a 3 gen lmao.
Also, when killers had insta flash light saves, you had insta kill Moris and insta chainsaw Billy.
Killer mains are such an embarrassment.
If you actually played any killer other than A-S Tier you would realize that most killers in this game are absolute garbage and get stomped by even mediocre solo q
@@unvaxxed313 so what your saying is your just bad 🤣 I’m a slinger main/ ghost face main don’t come at me with that crap you salty cry baby
@@bigbadwolf3199 cry me a river you big baby 😂 you just can’t handle the game is actually balanced now you crutch perk using swine 😂 and you want to talk about holding games hostage ? Why don’t you talk about survivor spots on rocks and other places that killers can’t reach that salty survivor animals like yourself use to hold a game hostage your the joke here 😂 now bug off you unwanted waist of carbon
I love this duo commentary from Otz and Hens. Very enjoyable.
Congrats on 900k Otz!! Well deserved!
Love the Hawkins map gameplay, wish it came back, I was learning DbD when it was around and it actually really helped me learn important mechanics like why Hawkins was a terrible map
Yeah, I feel like that's one of the best videos on the topic. I feel like the only point missing is huge difference between killers you play. I happen to play all and I can win a game with pretty much every single one but if the game goes bad for a weaker killer it just goes downhill. They only thing I really got going for me is experience and pretty casual mindset.
Casual mindset might not be the best for winning, but I would've been burned out with the game much faster, since I don't want any competitive experience out of it.
The second thing is you literally have no idea what is going to happen in the game so you often have to assume, all of your opponents are tryhards, with sweaty builds. For example even a single map offering can just ruin your game. Extreme differences between games and the unknown, is what builds so much anger in people.
this was truly a treat to watch, Thx Odz and Henz! Luv Friends
No way you used the Dark Reality music from King's Field hahaha that song is amazing, I love it.
I thought the stats did not count games with DC's. Which means the actual killrate is higher than 60%. Although it's an interesting question, should those be counted? They definitely contribute to how the game feels when playing, and some games that should count as a loss when someone DC's in late game are no longer counted. But balancing a game around how often people leave is also silly.
But they do count games where survivors suicide on first hook or just give up because the killer countered them or wasn't the killer they wanted to face. So the numbers can also be inflated the other way
Yes, that's absolutely right. I think it's also fair to say that DCs affect survivors more often and heavily than they do Killers for the same reasons stated in the video. It's a shame but nothing the developers can do will ever reduce DC rates to 0%.
Especially with all the DCs when people are already Dead on hook, getting hooked. Or when people lag out last second that match is thrown to the wind 😂.
@@notOtzdarva I mean if they remove the DC button as it only really serves as punishment with penalties anyway 👀…
@@notOtzdarva There is an easy way done by a few other games. When you DC your locked out of matchmaking until the round you left is done! THEN the Penalty timer starts. So quitting a game that lasts another 10 minutes then you have a 3 minute timer on top of that.
I miss Hawkins so much, it was such a nice different map :(
I was tripping so hard when I saw he was playing on Hawkins, felt like a mandala effect for a minute
I had heard about a tournament like this but could never manage to find it. I really hope to see more matches / streams like this where both the survivors and killers could go all out. Obviously the killers featured were the top 3 and it would've been nice to see a bubba or a hag.
Skill matters in this game. Imo a very goof SWF have a higher chance of beating a very good killer than the killer beating the SWF. Very good killers have a higher chance of beating a solo Que team though. Of course this all depends on how skillful the players are. What annoys me though is that most of the time its the survivors complaining about tunnelling/camping, when they have a bunch of second chance perks, and the ability to easily gen rush the killer at their disposal. Its not completely unbalanced, its just a battle of who plays fair and who plays to win.
I kind of wish they would do a throwback weekend once in a while, just for fun. Maybe as a separate game mode. Revert to old versions of the game, old maps, old perks, etc. I understand that could be a headache and impossible in some instances due to licensing issues...but it would be fun.
Here’s the balance list
Solo Queue: Don’t bother
Duo SWF: Killer-sided, but somewhat easier to strategize
Trio SWF: Mostly balanced, usually depends on the random
Full SWF: Usually survivor-sided
Its neither killer or survivor sided, Its PC sided Lol
The 4v1 also holds true for bringing the best stuff. The killer only needs to bring themselves to determine their side. Survivors are most of the time not a well coordinated team let alone all 4 bringing the best stuff. Survivors also have a huge advantage at bringing offerings tho. Determining which realm, how far apart the hooks are, where hatch and/or basement is, as well as making visibility harder. Killer can only affect 1 of those things.
Yeah this experiment basically shows that a SWF with strongest stuff against the killer with strongest stuff will have ~40% escape rate which just goes to show that against solo q a killer is absolutely in an advantageous position. You can bring the strongest map, perks, items and addons and because you aren’t in a team it all might get invalidated by someone with No Mither, as killer you bring the strongest stuff and you are already at your best odds.
@@dungeaterfancam this is why I laugh when some killers say they never win any games and all survivors have the advantage. Anybody that plays solo queue knows that your chances of winning are determined by dice roll and you have no control over it.
@@fart63it really boils down to what killer and build you're playing. If you try freddy or pig with no slowdown perks you'll likelly get obliterated. On that same coin a spirit with sloppy and full slowdown will win the majority of her games. So those complaints are very subjective
That is the one aspect that was missing here. For survivors to even have a chance in something like this they need to be 4 man swf with basically everyone wirhin the team being at least good.
A killer player decides his way of playing by himself. He doesnt need any help from another player.
If you have a soloq team with no communication the strongest stuff wont do nearly as much.
As far as offerings are concerned yes survivors have the advantage but only if they are in an swf again and agree on what to bring.
Affecting the visability though isnt a huge factor and can actually back fire depending on the killer you go against. Increasing hook distance is also not that strong unless survivors bring multiple of those.
The strongest offerings are map offerings followed by hatch offerings followed by basement offerings.
However basement can be strong but might not be worth bringing a offering though. Hatch offerings are decent but most of the time killer can deny hatch from becoming an option by sluggging.
If the survivor role wants to sweat or compete with sweaty killers they have to fullfill one condition first:
Have a 4 man swf with good and experienced players in it.
That is a big big reason why many survivors call the game killer sided because if you dont have the option to play in a 4 men it is more often then not.
@@dungeaterfancam tbf this is showing the highest level of both sides. Average matches the survivors AND the killer aren't gonna be that great. Also in this ideal scenario the survivors are ok with being camped and tunneled because the bigger picture matters more. That's almost never the case in pub matches.
I've been having a hard time playing dbd these last few days because it's just demotivating trying to have fun and seeing all these people having such negative feelings i love DBD with the good and the bad I play games for fun though and I can't find the fun with dbd these last few days I truly hope nothing but the best for the community and that I can come back one day with the games community in higher spirits and the Hawkins memories hit hard thanks for sharing this beautiful clip and video otz
You played dark reality in the background, literally my favorite piece of video game music ever
The music at the start is from a game on the PS1 called Vagrant story. It has a great soundtrack. I recommend the Ifrit boss music too!
And I ask how did the killers get those kills? They certainly didn't do so just by applying gen pressure like a lot of people say. Campy tunnly plays a factor in this as well and that is where the problem lies. You have to play a certain way to get a good result that may or may not be fun for either side. First game you showcased is a perfect example.
Exactly.
I wish the unhook survivor straight up lost their hitbox (invulnerable, but cannot take hits for allies), for 80 seconds or until doing conspicuous action. Deactivated in the endgame.
Essentially BASE Off The Record on Steroids.
Now tunneling is impossible, and camping is only ever useful to get a hook swap (which is balanced, since 0 pressure on gens otherwise).
Now the only way to kill people is by getting MORE hooks overall, not more hooks on less people.
And YES, I am a killer main. Once the game is balanced around hook stages, as opposed to kills, it will be finally fair-ish
To killer mains it doens't matter if they got the win through uncounterable unfun strategies, they just care about winning, they are literal sociopaths.
Plus, all of the factors you mentioned (experience, resources, rng, mindset) have VARYING weight from one match to another.
There are situations in which your experience becomes irrelevant, or it's the only difference between win and loss. Sometimes an entire team all bring purple medkits with syringes and they all die in 2-second chases - and sometimes a single survivor with a styptic changes an entire match.
They just need some type of matchmaking change that puts all Blights, Nurses and other strong killers against SWF premades, and leave the other killers against solo q
Love the King's Field OST on the background
the issue in balance of this game lays in solo q and swf, if you as a killer, play vs a swf, you have much less chances of winning than vs a solo q team
on the other side, if you play survivor without a full team, chances of you losing are MUCH higher
Outside of game comms and buff addons are why the game will never be balanced. They'd have to add comms to the base game and remove add-ons that are just straight buffs, adding/leaving add-ons that change how a killer plays like mirror myers or object puke plague. That way they can balance a killer at a base level without having to worry about the buff add ons making them even better.
This. It's honestly not possible to balance the game against both having voice chat with a well-coordinated group of teammates versus being placed with random people and no ability to easily communicate.
The game is never truly balanced
On one side you have survivors that are playing casually make mistakes but dont sweat
On the other you have a killer who has been bullied 3 matches in a row and tunnels or camps and doesnt care
The roles can also be reversed thus creating an infinite paradox
Sometimes you get casuals the other sweaty tryhard swf as killer
Yeah there's a lot of you getting the bad end of the other team, I'm guilty of it too after losing 3 games in a row to the usual gen rush teabaggers I throw on the best perks, play nurse and just go in with the intent to win no matter what, then get put up against a 4 man solo who're all just trying to do their archives
I do feel bad when I stomp a casual team because I have fought nothing but gen rushing swfs for the last 4 matches and wanted to do a complete lockdown plague build but because the devs don't include a causal mode i have no choice in ether matter.
Oh yeah, but the survivors should be able to make the decision to play sweatier that match and still stand a chance. Thats currently not the case. Killers do have the decision to play sweatier and still stand a chance.
Against a sweaty Nurse, you have to play sweaty the moment you load in the game. Against a sweaty SWF, you can play relatively casual the first 2 gens. I faced a sweaty SWF 2 days ago while playing as Doc, I played super casually the first 3 gens while they tried playing as optimally as possible. I still got a 4k that game. Right before that game, I was casually playing survivor, we encountered a sweaty Wesker and it was impossible to win by the time we knew he was sweaty.
Survivors are more in need of a tunnel protection early game, than killers are in need of gen protection early game. Killers dont really start losing untill survivors leave the game through the gate. Survivors start losing the moment someone dies before 3 gens are done.
@@Predated2 survivors play sweaty all the time. again it only takes 47 seconds on average for a gen to be done.
I've played plenty of times where 3 gens pop before the first chase is done and I rushed the chase to be sub 60 seconds.
@@Predated2 Its often up to perks. If killer wants to play optimally they need to bring loads of gen regression and slow down perks, which if you havent cause you wanna do a more fun build you can be easily rushed if a chase lasts more then 1 min. You just gotta hope you get lucky and are put up against a team that is alos just looking to mess around a bit
Well done, what a fantastic game! Both teams and killers! Outstanding play and technique!
WAIT, THAT MUSIC IN THE BEGINNING, THAT'S SNOWFLY FOREST FROM VAGRANT STORY!!!!! Nobody knows about this damned game and I love that it snuck into here somewhere, I knew you had good taste!
The problem with the balance in this game is that depending on the players skill level to goes from one extreme to the other, and imo that's ridiculous and unsustainable and should be looked at.
And the killer pick. Some are clearly superior to others and all that.
That's the problem with the "killer" statistics.
Tbh I think the big issue is because the ideal kill rate of 60% isn't seen as an overall win for most killers? As a survivor it sucks to die, as a killer only getting 2 kills feels bad, meaning that the ideal balancing point feels rough! I think the issue itself isn't actually about the balance though, it's about how fun the game feels to play. Adding back in things like BBQ stacks, or giving players statistics for their average kill rate, the killers they do best on, etc could be nice?
Or, if you REALLY want to shake things up, and make people have a better time with the game? Bring back more dumb stuff like the snowmen. No one cared that the game was unbalanced when you could hide inside a snowman and high five someone else, only to find out it's the killer. It was hilarious and delightful, and more silly dumb stuff like that would be a delight. Make the fun more cooperative and less competitive overall. (It's like how Smash is better with items).
I agree king, concurring so hard right now
I feel like I'm at a point where I play at a moderately high MMR and I usually either stomp or get stomped. I can't really hug loops tightly and I struggle a lot with running while looking behind me, so when I'm against players who can I tend to lose loops real badly on both sides.
Otz's commentary is absolutely hilarious every time, I love it XD
Im not going to argue against your line of thought
But there is more to take into consideration
How balanced the numbers may look, if the game feels awfull for so many players, you can call it well balanced for as long as you want
A terrible game experience, will get players to complain, and leave the game
Yet still, there are so many players who try to defend the game as a "objectively well balanced game"
The escaperates and killrates dont matter if over 50% of the games right now have 1 or more people who just give up within the first 2 minutes of a match starting
Alone yesterday in a 3 hour gaming session, i remember
1 leon who killed himself on the first hook of the game
1 ace, who just disconnected on his first down
1 doctor player who just disconnected when 2 gens popped before he managed to down 1 person
a claudette + kate prem8 team who both just gave up after they got outplayd once while trying to do head on shenanigans
And a blight who went afk because he was on 3 gens with only 2 hooks
Maybe every of those people had a reason to leave the game, but that was basically half of all my games, where at least someone just thought to themselves "im not gonna play this game to the end"
And how ever good you reason the balancing state of the game, if half of the matches dont get playd till the end because someone is fed up with something
And with this in mind you can throw all the argueing about balance out the window
because whatever we have now, might be a lot, but definetly not a healthy gamestate
There should be a documentary on the insane structure of this game's balance. The difference between the weakest players and the best is like 2 different games. I can accept both sides having a fair chance overall and the 60% kill rate being healthy as things stand. Problem is you can't play chill while still wanting to try to play well. If the opposing side sweats cause they want to win either you have to sweat or get demolished neither of which is fun. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing to win, I do it, but I have to play my hardest if I want that 60% chance to win as killer.
who cares dude. if u dont want to try just don't care about winning. just lower ur expectations. when I for example play new killers IDC if I lose I'm having fun either way.
They really need to bring Hawkins back with the 4 locker setup. So many good memories with the head on squad
"You don't need bbq when travel faster than light!" - not Otzdarva
I think a lot of the "imbalance" people talk about comes down to mindset and what you consider "fun" at least for the average player anyway, lets take Bubba for example you can win so much more simply facecamping someone especially in basement rather than playing normally but it's not really "fun" for the killer and the counter to it is also not "fun" for the survivors either especially when it's SWF.
The game is much more balanced when the killer especially is willing to do anything to win like camping and tunneling or the survivors are willing to let a team mate die to enable a draw/win by getting 2/3 people out instead of risking everyone dying for that person.
Most of the complaints are going to come from killers (especially low tier killers) not willing to camp/tunnel or survivors that do get camped tunneled out of a game really early, the problem being the most efficient/effective way to win the game is nowhere near as fun and there's not really a way to put people who want to "tryhard" or have "fun" in seperate game lobbies.
This
Why noone is talking about that fantastic Nea jump on 4:28 ?
I actually caught this showcase live! It's really interesting that the average landed near 60%, because it seemed like Killers outright wouldn't have the time to kill everyone normally with how fast gens went, creating an interesting division between hooks and kills as a win metric. There were also a lot of pivotal moments that could have had huge impacts on the statistics.
It's really easy to see how the game can feel biased, ESPECIALLY if a player restricts themselves from "toxic" behaviour like tunneling or slugging (which seem almost mandatory to win against a strong SWF). I still feel like Survs have an advantage at Eternal's level, but the main point that there are essentially just issues that balance out by chance definitely holds.
I mean thats the problem with this showcase. Its a sample size of 5. Taking it seriously beyond some entertainment for what balance in the game means is pretty pointless. Statistics can't be taken from a 5 game sample and used with any credibility.
what killers were played? was it only blight, nurse and spirit, or did they use some m1 killers like Ghostface, freddy or trapper?
Low rank favors killer, Medium is pretty balanced, & High rank favors survivors.
It’s 4V1 so when played to maximum efficiency survivors have the advantage as they can be at 4 different places at once which is a significant advantage. The reason it’s not all survivor sided is because in the low ranks, especially with randoms, there’s often people doing nothing, wasting time or even throwing others under the bus.
But as someone who plays at a high level I almost always get stuck playing against sweaty SWF w highly coordinated plays. At times it’s exhausting when you want to learn a new killer or use a meme build. DbD should add casual & rank matches so people can choose whether they want to play competitively or just have fun.
It is strange how tournaments have determined that tunneling, camping, and slugging are the most efficient ways to gain progress as killer. It seems some things never change.
Until surviving survivors get gen repair buff for every dead teammate, it won’t change.
Dead survivor == less possible survivor progression.
bvhr forces it, alot of killers can't walk half away across a match or stay in chase for to long. looping is extremely OP on certain maps to many chained pallets or vault locations together all the survivors always go to the same loop locations!. camp and tunneling when need to be forces survivors to come to the killer instead of wasting time chasing or kicking a gen that does nothing.
You fell into the same trap as the devs: balancing the game around "its fair if everyone sweats their balls off and camps and tunnels every hook" does not lead to a healthy game, it leads to camping and tunnelling every hook.
This.
Eliminating the extraneous variable of "player mistakes", balance is only achieved when Survivors are running their best stuff and Killers are limited to only play 4 of the available 31 characters (while still camping and tunnelling).
Balance should allow Killers to play fairer and go for more hooks. As such, either chases need to be made quicker or gens made slower and then tunnelling/camping can be heavily punished.
Man... those matches... I was on the edge of my seat the whole time
Nostalgia hit hard with my dear old hawkin's laboratory
The biggest imbalance in this game is SWF existing.Even after soloq buffs SWF still have massive advantage over soloQ players like knowing each other locations,giving information about killers location/perks,coordinating and making strong perks even stronger like adrenalin deliverance etc.
SWF fucks the balance and is only here because it needs to exist otherwise you cant play this game with your friends other than customs.
Maybe that is it - SWF only in customs?
The problem is that devs are baby survivor mains, and they make changes to help them get more wins...Without realizing (Or they know but they dont care because survivor players are the majority and that's where they get their money) that those buffs makes SWF more and more powerful than it already is
@@kingol4801 we all hope so , but people will justify the whole friends bring more players to the game and all that
Most people in a SWF are casual players.
@@BwanaLasPelotas "The problem is that devs are baby survivor mains, and they make changes to help them get more wins..."
They've spent the past seven years nerfing survivor and buffing killer.
I think the main issue I have with dbd balance is when one side doesn't want to bring strong items but the ither side goes all out. Also maps are very inconsistent in balance.
The difference is one "side" needs to bring strong "items" to get a chance at winning while the other "side" can just play without any perks and still get at least 1 man out.
When I picture the scale of “DBD balance”, I see a scale that isn’t truly equal, but both sides are shifting up and down so fast that the human eye can only comprehend each side of the scale being centered
Amazing like usual ! However u didnt talk about one important factor : none-solo survivors . Which many people say that only benefits the survivors (which I disagree upon, it could go both ways). + the fact that it makes the game more fun
watching these matches live was nutty, spirit player DEFIED PHYSICS
The "Top MMR" experiment was with Top 3 Killers it seems. Imho, it negates it tremendously as the common belief is the game is slightly Killer sided until about High MMR, equal-ish around there, and then absurdly Survivor sided towards the end of High MMR and beyond into Top MMR (assuming, again, you didn't bring a Top 3 Killer). And when the Survivors are SWF'ed up partially or fully, they tend to win at ALL MMR levels. (See SWF's with like 200 wins to 1 loss all the way to a 2/3-man SWF joining up to stop losing at mid MMR.).
As another note, please notice the common belief that DBD doesn't balance their game like most normal other games. DBD balances around the very average MMR and around the very top 3 Killers. What does that mean? Perks that have nerfs in their versions history from Corrupt to Pop compared to Survivor features like 2-charge medkits, basekit BT with upgraded OTR and more and more genrushing perks. Who's hurt the most by it? M1 Killers that should now merit consideration for becoming obsolete/deleted from the game.
I have suggested solutions in the official forums every few months, and I see similar versions of a few them implemented over time, like Survivor Activity Icons. Here's a few of my latest ones in quick bullets that I can remember atm;
- Killer Corrupt Intervention just like a Killer Terror Radius. I think you get the picture here, Nurse has 0-5 seconds of it. Trapper has 30-40 seconds of it.
- Small buffs to M1 Killers base powers, like Trapper holds 1 more trap, Ghostface has a base 18 second Shroud cooldown, Wraith gets half of his uncloak speed burst back.
- The more you buff Killers and the leave Killer perks alone, the MORE you can add to Survivors in basekit and in perks. It even opens the game to more exciting opportunities in Survivor gameplay like, random example, crafting for a special item or perk mid-match. Make the game action-packed and fun instead of being the only videogame that when a balance patch comes out, it is 90% nerfs.
- Locking the game for more fun. What do I mean by this? The best one I have in my mind is locking the gen repairing. It essentially has no progress bar anymore (or hidden). All matches last about 8-10 minutes. Survivors genrushing will push the hidden gen repair timer to 5-6 minutes. Killers doing well in their match, denying gens (or 4 Survivors playing for immersion and unplanned boldness) will push the hidden timer to 14-16 minutes. Now there is tremendously less need for slowdown/rushing perks. Remember the crafting a special item/power from a previous bullet?
- Other minor Balancing Mechanics; basekit Grim Embrace for 20 seconds. Basekit DS for 30 seconds.
- The "5th and maybe 6th" Perk slots on both sides of the game, except when you click their slots, the perks menu is purposely slashed down to 10-30 Underused Perks.
very well said. and this is why people are so convinced it's heavily in one sides favor. you have wraith players who havent even unlocked a quarter of the perks yet complaining about bnps and dead hard and prove thyself and super medkits, and you have survivors running chase builds getting matched against nurses and blights. it is not possible for bhvr to bring the trapper up to a level where he can compete with something that's meant to compete with the nurse, and vice versa.
The point of the video is if you want to be on equal footing to sweat squads you can play either Nurse, Blight or Spirit and that’s it outside of esoteric strategies and memes like condemned sadako
I also think that the question is not about balance but fun and enjoyment.
With the latest update, I noticed that the killers felt almost forced to play certain perks and tunnel/slug/camp to have a chance, while survivors have even fewer chances against A-tier killers.
Anyway, going back to play basement chest Bubba to brighten up EU lobbies. BYE AND THANKS FOR THE VIDEO!
Basement chest bubba is gigachad! Always enjoy to see one:)
I can't remember the last time I went up against a killer that DIDN'T have either Sloppy/Jolt/or Call of Brine.
It's miserable. I play 50/50 killer/survivor and I never bring slowdown perks. Win or lose, do it quickly and it won't be as miserable
As a killer, kill rates and wins are not the same. You can use kill rates as your basis for 'winning', but that's a personal/player-made goal rather than a game-design goal. Therefore you can never have proper balance because there is no definitive way to win as a killer. For example, you're still awarded points if you don't sacrifice any survivors. In regards to the survivor side - it's a little bit different. For one, you're not on a team, but there are 4 players per trial. Survivors win individually by surviving the trial regardless of how many escape. With that said, in terms of gameplay I think the problem with DBD is that there is much less room for error on the survivor side and that's the true problem.
Is it not a design goal, when the developers came front and directly said that 3 kills is a win? 2 kills is a tie. Hatch is neither, and only gate escape counts as a win for survivor. This is what determines your mmr in game. The developers have literally said this on stream to be the way mmr designed. So it technically is. You get points sure, but your don't go up in your mmr.
I'm surprised to see that the stats show the game is way more balanced than it feels sometimes. I guess it just depends on who you end up against.
I don't really feel like asymmetrical games like this lend themselves well to a competitive scene, but it's always fun to see someone who's at the peak of what they love doing it really, really well. Great matches.
Only issue with using the statistics previously provided is they were posted before the HUD update and the nerf to all slow down perks and medkits/dead hard. I'd be curious what the new stats will be with the above changes