I don’t understand how people complain so much about the reading experience. It flows well and it’s honestly been a page turner for me. I wouldn’t say it’s dense or hard to read at all.
Same. I guess it's how you react to words you don't understand. if you get frustrated immediately at a word you don't understand and have to look it up mid sentence then yeah, you may have a hard time of it. Most of my difficulties came with terminologies such as words for someone's station in the world or words for animal species or references to greek, hindu, roman and christian mythology/theology. It never detracted from what I was reading and I would read till I hit the end of a chapter before going over the words I had difficulty with. About six times out of ten I was right in my estimation of what words meant but either way it didn't change much in the way the characters interacted or the plot unfolded. That being said it is layered and i think it will warrant a reread by the time I'm finished reading BoftNS. While it's a page turner, it's a completely different beast from say an Elmore Leonard novel.
Agreed. There were many words I had to look up or infer from context, but they were almost always in service to the world building. I also disagree with claims about the narrator being unreliable. Modern readers project their moral biases on Severian and judge him untrustworthy.
I truly believe the Malazan series is one of the - if not THE - best fantasy series ever created. I also think that THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is a spectacular human achievement. To me, THE NEW SUN is comparable to the achievement of humanity going to the moon for the first time. It is absolutely incredible. In Top Ten books of all time, no matter the genre.
I've read it, but long ago for the first time, and I haven't reread it recently. I thought Severian did have a perfect memory, but it recounts things as they happen to him first, and it's so hectic that they don't make sense. Then he gives a more straightforward explanation in the next chapter. Flowers and death? I should reread the duel with the razor-edged hypnotic orchids again. I love that bit. I notice that when you're quoting Severian about women, he's always explicitly talking about men's reaction to women (presumably his own reaction generalized to men). There's probably something to be made of that. You're probably an older and more careful reader than I was when I first read it-- it took me several reads to notice that the skyscrapers are repurposed rocket ships, even though Wolfe says it again and again. Later in the series, Severian has a moment of revelation that a great deal of his troubles were the result of his attraction to women, and it was a burden for him. Some of the vocabulary is explained in a chapter in a book called _The Castle of the Otter_ Maybe that's included in more recent editions. You might want to catch up with the book, since it has jokes people told in Severian's world. The one from the Guild of Torturers is pretty good.
I would ammend Severian's comments to be specifically an overall characterization of Agia, rather than some wholesale condemnation of all women. Contextually, his musing comes after the event in which Agia attempts to sexually seduce him in order to distract him from some larger event which you now know, but she ultimately fails which leaves Agia extremely angry, yet as Severian notes, still kinda randy. In my reading of his dichotomy, there are women of the first camp ("if we are to remain men we must offer our lives") which encompass the spectrum of those that desire that classic Disney princess paternalism of a man who must literally be willing to die for her, who offers impossibilities like the moon or eternal love and desire, all the way to women who prefer a more modern egalitarian rewording of 'offer our lives' to simply be faithfulness, loyalty, and affection in a state of monogamy. The other camp to which Severian condemns Agia is the one he characterizes as those "to remain men...we must overpower and outwit". I believe the saying "if you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" evokes this type of person pretty well. Agia represents the cohort of women who accept and perpetuate the toxic masculine/feminine divide, who revel in that sort of borderline sadomasochistic destructive interplay. Pick a fight with your partner and then passionately make up, and then fight and then make up, on and on. To them it is true that REAL men are dominate and conquerors. If she acts in a destructive way and is still dominated, it must be because the person is a REAL man. Conversely derived is the implication that if the man is cowed by her actions, he is less than a man, so retroactively deserves the scorn she has spent previously heaping on him. He essentially sums up at the end of that scene that he recognizes her as really bad Trouble with a capital T, but he's still madly attracted to her. Poor poor stupid Severian. I do believe Severian has a less than ideal view of women, but I also think if you were to ask him the hypothetical "didn't your parents teach you any manners? or how to treat a lady?" you might arrive at a more favorable view of him. Yet by and large the world of the Book of the New Sun is very equal and lacks any standout sexual oppression. Especially for a world in a medieval setting. Coming from some previous 'grimdark' fantasy I read where it's the 10th depiction of, 'Here reader is your female POV. Her village was destroyed in a war. Her father and brothers butchered and/or her mother was raped. Women are either nobles or whores. She cant leave the tavern she works at for fear of getting raped in the streets. Still, she gets raped in Book XX as part of her character arc. What's the matter, dont you know this is H I S T O R I C A L L Y A C C U R A T E?" the BOTNS is almost utopian. Almost.
Personally, I'd describe Severian's views on women as a madonna-whore complex. He either sees them as angels like Dorcas or Thecla, or as the worst people ever like Agia or Jolenta. I mean, I don't blame him for thinking that way. He grew up in an all boys guild where his only relationship with women were as prisoners that could be raped as part of their punishment after all.
The term Saudade: “ a vague and constant desire for something that does not and probably cannot exist, for something other than the present, a turning towards the past or towards the future; not an active discontent or poignant sadness but an indolent dreaming wistfulness.” I think that is the closest term I know to match your 'Nostalgia for something you have never experienced' . I had a similar feeling from the book, but hadn't found how to articulate it. Great video. Really glad you are enjoying it, and appreciating how odd, and layered it is. And of course, our good friend Severian and his constant mental gynmastics ;)
Interesting. In Portuguese “saudade” is a quite common word. “Saudade" is a mixture of feelings of lost, longing, distance, love - everything mixed up. I think there isn’t a word a that can really translate it. Your description of it is very good though.
Thanks you! A word that cannot be defined sounds like the perfect definition for Botns. Also sounds like one of Severian's everyday words xD It's interesting how different languages have words that can't really be translated literally, especially in regards to Wolfe's 'translation' of Botns.
One of the central tensions that increases the depth of the book is the fact that we are faced with a society where things like dreams, thoughts, hallucinations, space, and time itself are always under question not only because of the narrator’s mental state but also because of incredibly high technologies that blur the lines between all of those things. Is Severian hallucinating? Is it some sort of mental projection? Or is it something that’s actually real even if it’s a totally crazy image like a woman’s hand as big as a car? Reality becomes harder and harder to pin down because of the world’s science fantasy environment which when combined with Severian’s unreliable narration creates a complex puzzle for the reader to unravel.
I feel like I don't really have a grasp of technology in this world yet. I had this feeling that the world might indeed have become so bizarre that the weirdest things and sensory impressions are possible, and I'm curious what is yet to be revealed in that regard. Tbh I wasn't quite sure if hallucinations was the correct word for what's going on with Severian but I chose it for lack of a better world ^^
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn The books is designed more than any other I've read for re-reading. So that might be what it shares with the Malazan Book of the Fallen. There's a podcast about Wolfe called "Re-Reading Wolfe", but I wouldn't jump into that until you've finished the series as it is super spoilery. The technology stuff will become clearer though as you get further (even on a first reading). Though a few key things aren't revealed until very late in the series.
I enjoyed listening to your take on the first book in this masterpiece. Keep in mind that this book is a translation of "posthistoric' manuscript, perhaps a sacred one, which has survived many centuries of 'futurity'. See the appendix "A note on Translation". As such the text would be 'unreliable' even without an unreliable (supposedly solitary) narrator. No text survives centuries unaltered. There are passages that jump out at one as being something that some scribe in a long forgotten monastery would think ought to be in The Book. Without spoiling the books to come, I'd just say examine the concepts of 'posthistoric' and 'surviving centuries of futurity' as possible clues. The Book of the New Sun, among many other things is, not least, a meditation on Time. This is built into the structure of the book and this structure is what makes you feel nostalgia for something you have yet to encounter. Wolfe reveals what he is up to in the very first words of the text--the poem before the first chapter "A thousand ages in thy sight; are like an evening gone. As short as the watch that ends the night; before the rising sun" Being a meditation on time, it is also a meditation on identity. This addresses your concern about Severian's character and attitude about women. The narrator, Severian, are many. Not least of which, he is a woman!. You'll see it in future readings--if you read carefully. You'll have to because while the narrator philosophizes and poetizes beautifully and deeply throughout, he's at his best in those seemingly throwaway passages--which show rather than tell.
Don’t forget that Severian is an unreliable narrator who most likely brags about romantic conquests that never happened, or not to the degree that he’d like the reader to think.
The idea that the plot is simple or straightforward is a bit strange. I don't want to spoil anything, but that is far from reality. On its surface you can describe the book as: shit Jesus walks around a bit. That, however, is not the point of the book. I guess if I was going to describe the book it would be as a time traveling buildungsroman.
Wolfe is remarkable in his ability to stay completely true to the point of view of his character exclusively without inserting his own opinions or moralities into them. Since Severian was raised in such a particular cloistered environment, necessarily his viewpoint is extremely skewed. Also he is very young and inexperienced and going through what amounts to a late puberty unsupervised and stumbling headlong through a very crazy series of events.
Great video, though I would like to add a few things that might alter your perception of Severian as a character, especially in regards to his opinions on women and the concept of love. I'm not going to say that his opinions are good, and I will try to avoid (significant) spoilers but continue at your own peril. His opinions on women and love, are greatly soiled by his interactions with Thecla and Agia(Who are a good portion of the female characters in the book), who both exploited his paltry understanding of what he considered love for their own petty gain. Thecla was the first individual Severian would claim to love and his understanding of the relationship was that it was mutual love. But to Thecla it was entirely as a form of escapism from her impending demise, perhaps appreciation but certainly not love in the strict sense of the word. As to how Severian comes to learn this is spoiler territory, but is a good reason to show why The Book of the New Sun should really be read all at once rather than individually in its parts, since the reader is sometimes left confused by the oftentimes strange and unreasonable behaviour of Severian, which is then explained later. Severian is both benevolent and cruel (He shows kindness and treats the clients to as much extra food he can muster, and yet he facilitates their torture and so on) and this dichotomy is expressed everywhere in his character, which is why he can objectify women and yet also claim to love them, and sprinkle on a little bit of ego inflating locker room talk you get his weird stance on women.(Plus I think that isn't always the same Severian doing the narration) I think it is patently false to claim that Severian is a misogynist, as it is clear that he cannot bring himself to hate or detest anyone or anything throughout the book(Even when it would be perfectly understandable for him to do so), and you shouldn't avoid this book because you disagree with his statements on women. If anything his unsavoury opinion on women is more an indication of his experiences that are being built upto over the course of the book. Well that was a massive block of text, but I do recommend reading the Book of the New Sun, as you will hopefully find that Severian's poor opinion of women and love doesn't sour the story but in fact comes to make it better especially with what Severian ultimately comes to determine about the nature of love and compassion. There is so much more I could say but I will leave it that.
I've been told that Botns is rather supposed to be seen as one novel but I had a lot of thoughts I wanted to express after book 1 already ^^ I find Severian difficult to properly judge because of the layers in the narration. If we consider him being influenced by his experiences with Thecla and Agia, that still makes him a poor judge of women as a whole (while obviously being a sign of him being a flawed character). I don't know yet how much experience the narrating Severian has with women, but honestly I don't think it matters, because he should either know better if he's had more experience, or refrain from the type of generalisation he makes, if he hasn't. I am not sure yet what i should think of the behavior of the female characters. A benevolent explanation might be that Severian was simply unlucky to run into 2 women that exploited him early on and that his views based on that are reflected in our cast of female characters, similarily to how his mental state is reflected in the narration. Less benevolent to the series is that the way women are portrayed in the book can lead to laying the blame at the female characters' feet, independently from Severian's biased judgement. I cannot pass final judgement here but the latter is...problematic. Also, loving a woman and being sexist/objectifying women do not rule each other out, unfortuntunately, and Severian is certainly not an exception here. When it comes to discussing sexism and misogyny, the context of society matters, and so far I don't feel like I can judge the society of Botns. That being said, whatever the society's views are, our perspective on it will still be clouded by Severian's biased perception. By the way, my rant about Severian was not meant to be a criticism of the book. Actually, all of his unreliability and BS do make him interesting as a character, and it shows that human nature can be very contradictory.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn I agree with your more nuanced analysis, I just simply ran out of time. I think all the characters in TBotNS are deeply flawed individuals, and certainly agree that Severian shouldn't be given a pass for his opinions, but I think later in the book his behaviour (I cannot say redeemed) but becomes more nuanced. Which is why I think it makes him and well the rest of the cast, great characters who are fuelled by their ambitions and insecurities and whose actions are being motivated by quite unclear forces until being made apparent later. To top it off we have a narrator who is unable to tell the difference between truth and his mind's fiction. My justification for writing my earlier comment was mainly to get other readers to not avoid the book based on Severian's intial characterisation of women.
@@terminus.est. Absolutely agree that the book should not be avoided because of Severian! Characters being frustraing doesn't have to be a bad thing. It would have been weird to not address Severian's issues though, especially as a female reader.
Hey I had a question. You mentioned that you have read fantasy books with harder plots? wanted to see what is the most difficult one plot wise that you have read?
Would definitely love to hear more Wolfe stuff from you. I never found the prose/language *too* difficult, knowing a bit of classical language roots lets you pick up most of it. it is impressive how deeply he digs though, not hard to follow but surprisingly arcane. The actual plot though, oof, i dunno. On the surface it seems simple but I don't think I could at all describe what happens or why, especially into the back half of the series. Definitely going to need a few reads to really grok it.
I'm expecting to feel confused once I'm finished, actually xD It's all really weird, in a good way I guess. I've heard it really profits from a reread. I enjoyed the prose and was happy it wasn't impossibly difficult to read.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn - It profits from several re-readings. :-) The answers to many seemingly un-answered puzzles really are in there, but boy he does not hold your hand and explain it to you.
People who have issues with Severian's takes on women forget that he lives in a time period with traditional gender roles. People who have issues with Severian's takes on women are in denial that there are fundamental differences between men and women - in terms of lived experience due to biology, but also in terms of interests. Severian's takes are not problematic. If anything, he is a keen observer of male/female dynamics. It may be politically incorrect in the 21st century, but doesn't mean they are not valid.
I love Book of the New Sun, but it is difficult in a different way from Malazan. It's more hard to follow because of the multiple layers of unreliable narrator. I'd love to see more Gene Wolfe content from you though!
Love your videos :) BOtNS is one of my favorite series and I read it 2x so far. I just love that it is an experience. If you can't know everything you have to feel it and the mystery works your subconscious. Also you always find new things and the meaning evolves. That's the personal aspect I love about reading. So something mysterious and surreal is exactly my thing, cause I'm very intuitive and I like dealing with abstract feelings. Painting with words. Words that are music. Bin gespannt, wie dir die restlichen Bücher gefallen! And I also can't wait until a certain guy with a PhD in fantasy lit takes this on :)))
Thank you! Yes, I enjoy having to figure out stuff about SFF worlds myself, too! I've actually read a theory somewhere online that being intuitive is an important factor when it comes to liking Malazan. We all know there is only one person who can do an APt discussion of this, right? xD
He interacts with 6 women in the first book, only 1 "falls in love with him within 1 hour" - and that's due to the circumstances of how they met let's say. His a teenager that has very limited exposure to women, other than through his trade. He will fall for most beautiful women he meets, there's nothing strange about that. The strange philosophizing he indulges sometimes is strange.
I would say that there are many aspects of someone that a person can find attractive, maybe Severian isn't just talking about physical attraction? Also, women objectify men as well. This is nothing new.
Well, obviously there are many layers of attraction, and Severian certainly does not limit his judgement to physical appearances. Yes, women can objectify men, too, but there isn't the same history of sexism behind it. Sexism towards women should never be an excuse to treat men badly, ever. The possibility of women doing it too should not be a justification for men. Men objectifying women sadly has the weight of centuries of internalized sexism behind it, which is why it still, to this day, needs to be called out, which I firmly believe is key to everybody, no matter the gender, becoming a better person.
I really really enjoyed this. Severian of course is no authority on love or women as you say. This whole memoire and his endless interactions with women is his attempt to figure HIMSELF out -- which he never completely pulls off in this book. I will say something about his "love and desire" passage at the Inn of Lost Loves. Maybe this will make the passage make more sense. Severian is not saying "a woman has to be attractive to be loved." Rather he said that "if you desire a woman you will eventually fall in love with her." And "if you love a woman, she will become attractive and desirable to you." As you probably know by now, he never overcomes his tendency to draw up lists of women he's encountered and compare them. And in those he regularly ranks Agia near the bottom in physical beauty -- trying to determine why he is so attracted to her.
Just came through volume 1(part 1 and 2)! Needed a break to process it all so I'm reading A Canticle for Leibowitz now which is awesome so far. Looking forward to volume 2(part 3 and 4)!
Oh, that was unexpected: I was trying to remember the name of this Book/Series recently, as I read it about 15 years ago. Don't remember much except that I liked it as it was so depressing to read. Not that I was asking for this type of emotions, but I enjoyed how the author put me into the state of the created world (or so I remember it). Or maybe it was this "saudade" mentioned in the comment section. Also, as I most probably read it in Russian, I believe it was very well translated then. And now I think I should find some time and read it in English to enjoy the original (and see if I struggle. Read Malazan in English, understood almost everything). Thank you!
"It's entirely possible that I might misinterpret things that are made clear later on..." yes, definitely, haha... or at least, they're made less hazy for discerning readers (this is not to say that you aren't). That said, within the context of the book, the views that Severian's shares about women are completely understandable, and actually do a lot for the world-building and character development. I don't think readers need much (if any) more than what you're holding (Shadow and Claw) to piece that together. You do have less than half the story there though, and I think you'd benefit from further reading/contemplation. Besides my curiosity about who you'd consider to be "authorized" to speak about women, I question who else could possibly be a more qualified authority in regards to the women of Urth? I'd hazard to say that literally nobody is better suited than he. Remember, it's very far removed from the sensitivities and structure of our "enlightened" era. Regardless, I'm sure Wolfe would appreciate your passionate response to his writing, haha. I have a theory that those bits you read are almost explicitly for the female audience, if you understand me. I'm trying desperately not to spoil anything here...
I’m planning on rereading the Book of the New Sun this year, and your thoughts were very insightful and interesting. Yup, Severian is up there for Unreliablest Narrator Ever. 😆 I see you haven’t posted in months. Any plans to come back to Booktube? I’d love to see more. 🙂
I purposefully didn't address the translation aspect because viewers might want to find out on their own, but yes, it certainly adds another layer of unreliability! I'm not sure (yet) when exactly Severian is telling his story, it's only been hinted that he will become Autarch. I am planning to do a spoiler-talk eventually :)
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn apologies for any spoilers, it's been a year or so since I've read it and I thought these were things brought up fairly early on. I will edit my comment to avoid spoiling other readers.
Great video, I hope you read Claw and post another one. I have not heard a woman's perspective before on these books and aside from the deserved outrage at Severian's immature, inexperienced, and misguided views on women, your thoughts on the rest of the book are interesting too. Keep it up!
its almost comical how poorly he understands women and how much he deludes himself about their views of him. it shouldnt be forgotten that he is the whole time cherrypicking his words around events in an attempt to portray himself in a gratiating light, and that said, this is what he considers to be a glowing account of his journey? lol. What i find most interesting about re-reading BotNS is trying to understand just why Severian acts the way he does. hes such a thoroughly flawed being
I was wondering if the language would have been a issue but most of the words are just made up or latin. Regardless due the first person narrative a lot just aren't explained. Makes the worldbuilding difficult but it makes perfect sense in the context. I did eventually look up sabertache which is a real word. There also really aren't a lot of spoilers. You think there might be one but Wolfe gives you the answer about 150 pages in. But looking forward to the review. And AP has this on his list to get to, after he gets done with ICE or if he decides.tondo Dune.
Yes, lots of Latin words! My latin vocabulary is very...ehem...rusty, haven't needed it in 10 years ^^ I'm still avoiding looking up stuff about the world or the meaning of things, but then, I'm expecting to still be confused at the end. Yeah, AP mentioned he's gonna tackle it eventually, but I couldn't not put in the challenge :)
Alzabo and notule spring to mind when thinking about made up words, but I'm actually hard pressed to think of many others. Even the ones that sounded really made up to me are all existing words, derived from Latin, Greek, French, Italian, etc. Many terms were used specifically in certain historic periods, which doesn't make it easier. More than once did I look up a word just in case, (because common, this is not a real word!) just to discover that actually in fact, it is.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn that's a really good question! I never actually stopped to consider that. Strange, that is just never occurred to me to ask myself that question
These books are on my list, so thank you for this. It sounds really up my alley, apart from the "women-thing". I'm curious about what you think of the rest of the books, so i'm definitly looking forward to your next spoiler free discussions of these books.
I'm not sure yet if I'm going to do spoiler-free videos on every book since they're supposed to be seen as one book (I've been told), so I might not have all that much to add after each one, but I will pobably do an update on my final thoughts once I'm done :)
Just found your channel! Such a great video :) I really appreciate how you brought up Severian's weird weird monologue on women, also how it's important to recognize that a character's views are not always indicative of the author's views. HOWEVER the dead giveaway that you're not going to enjoy a read is usually in the author's characterization of women. I don't want to bash any authors because there's only a handful of men in the world who can actually write women, but wow it is painful reading a book when you have to constantly worry if they're going to bring up a female character and completely break immersion. I think that was probably the biggest strength of Malazan because on my first read I had no idea what anybody really looked like or even what their gender was and I had a very good understanding of their underlying character regardless of those superficial details. Anyway have a wonderful day and thanks for the content
Glad to find a review by a woman. I had been getting hints it was iffy, but wasn’t sure if it would be deal breaker iffy going off male reviewers who seemed to glass over it.
Honestly though, you going on about Severian's philosophical ruminations on the nature of women. Which by the way you seem to interpret in a very literal sense when in fact they are in my opinion dealing with abstractions. There is so much more to talk about. For example your observation about the feeling of having read the book at a younger age but forgotten it, the feeling of déjà vu, you were onto something very interesting there. Instead you just mention it in passing but then go on about his view on women. Only a woman could get so hung up on these specific points of his character.
Well, it is impossible to do this book justice in a 20 minute video (without abstracting, one might say), that's why I have done a 2 hour discussion collab. But beware, it features not one, but two women.
Having grown up during the time period in which these books were written, I also experienced a sense of deja vu - particularly regarding the way women are portrayed and treated. I had a similar experience while reading your comment. But I’m sure only a woman would get so hung up on these specific points of your character.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn btw I don't have anything against women. I'm just not sure why it's even a topic of discussion regarding the narrative of the books. The way you describe it seems lke Severian is describing a woman every other paragraph.
Except for the weakness of the female characters, these might be perfect books. It fills me with joy just thinking of reading them again. If you can get past the seemingly antagonistic nature of the narration toward the reader, you begin to enter a dialog with the books. Wolfe spoke on this often, saying novels should be dialog. There should be a reason to re-read them. Each of the main characters is so much more realized as people because of their flaws in presentation of the story. Eventually, you begin to read with this kind of engrossing paranoia. You start reading and meta-reading at the same time, asking yourself what you know about the wants and perception of the narrator. It's great.
OMG! I thought English was your first language! Maybe it seems perfect to me because I speak it much worse... But... talking about the New Sun... I read it after Malazan too and I didn't find it too complex; I was expecting because of some online comments a lot of things to decipher but I found the four books (+1) quite simple except maybe for one element I don't want to spoiler now. I found the story pleasantly dreamlike, unique, with things explained later and others not, but not in a more complex way than Malazan. Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon, that is a very difficult novel ;-) About the language: I read it in Italian, my mother language. It has some weird words but nothing that cannot be understood thanks to the context. In the end the books remained in my heart but mainly thanks to some meta-textual-games. I really did not sympathize with Severian and I suspect his negative relationships with women may be more of Wolfe's problem than a deliberate artistic choice. Maybe I'll talk more about some aspects in your next Wolfe videos. I'm excited to see them, because I have a strange love for these books and I also really like your analyses.
Having read a lot of Wolfe's books, I'm curious as to why you think the way women are treated or portrayed is a "Wolfe problem" as opposed to how a character he writes sees women. Ive never gotten this hint from him, but happy to be shown I'm wrong if there's other evidence.
@@ryanoneal8480 It's primarily how the women in the books are mostly enemies or sexual objects. But I have to (and want to) read other novels of the author before developing a final idea on the matter. I have wrote "I suspect" for a reason.
@@fremdaobservanto1205 yes, I would definitely encourage you to read more Wolfe before casting too many aspersions. BotNS is completely in one obviously flawed narrators pov.
Hm, I have not (yet) done any research if Wolfe ever talkes about his intentions regarding the female representation in Botns. However, so far it felt like a deliberate choice to me since Severian's problematic views are so blatantly obvious, and it fits in with his way of presenting and analysing his thoughts in general. I felt like it was getting a little more difficult to understand towards the end, so I'm curious how I'm gonna feel once I finish the series but so far I love the atmosohere. There were a bunch of latin words so maybe you have an advantage if you speak Italian, idk :) Thank you for watching and commenting :)
Thank you for the video. As much as I love the books I just feel like shit about the authors view on gender. I find his depictions of women not literery device but a many dimensional fault. For all god's sakes do we really need all those "heaving bosoms", etc. And Wolfe is not laying a critique of medieval male imagination, rather he is incriminating his own limits.
I don’t understand how people complain so much about the reading experience. It flows well and it’s honestly been a page turner for me. I wouldn’t say it’s dense or hard to read at all.
Same. I guess it's how you react to words you don't understand. if you get frustrated immediately at a word you don't understand and have to look it up mid sentence then yeah, you may have a hard time of it. Most of my difficulties came with terminologies such as words for someone's station in the world or words for animal species or references to greek, hindu, roman and christian mythology/theology. It never detracted from what I was reading and I would read till I hit the end of a chapter before going over the words I had difficulty with.
About six times out of ten I was right in my estimation of what words meant but either way it didn't change much in the way the characters interacted or the plot unfolded. That being said it is layered and i think it will warrant a reread by the time I'm finished reading BoftNS.
While it's a page turner, it's a completely different beast from say an Elmore Leonard novel.
Agreed. There were many words I had to look up or infer from context, but they were almost always in service to the world building.
I also disagree with claims about the narrator being unreliable. Modern readers project their moral biases on Severian and judge him untrustworthy.
A bit hard in the beginning imo but when I got it it got good.
Because people like being spoon fed, and there’s a lot of simpletons out there.
Except for the play and the stories from the book I completely agree. And I'm not even a great reader
I truly believe the Malazan series is one of the - if not THE - best fantasy series ever created. I also think that THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is a spectacular human achievement. To me, THE NEW SUN is comparable to the achievement of humanity going to the moon for the first time. It is absolutely incredible. In Top Ten books of all time, no matter the genre.
I've read it, but long ago for the first time, and I haven't reread it recently.
I thought Severian did have a perfect memory, but it recounts things as they happen to him first, and it's so hectic that they don't make sense. Then he gives a more straightforward explanation in the next chapter.
Flowers and death? I should reread the duel with the razor-edged hypnotic orchids again. I love that bit.
I notice that when you're quoting Severian about women, he's always explicitly talking about men's reaction to women (presumably his own reaction generalized to men). There's probably something to be made of that.
You're probably an older and more careful reader than I was when I first read it-- it took me several reads to notice that the skyscrapers are repurposed rocket ships, even though Wolfe says it again and again.
Later in the series, Severian has a moment of revelation that a great deal of his troubles were the result of his attraction to women, and it was a burden for him.
Some of the vocabulary is explained in a chapter in a book called _The Castle of the Otter_ Maybe that's included in more recent editions. You might want to catch up with the book, since it has jokes people told in Severian's world. The one from the Guild of Torturers is pretty good.
It *does* makes sense! Incredibly well said. (The 'nostalgia for what you've not experienced' part.)
I would ammend Severian's comments to be specifically an overall characterization of Agia, rather than some wholesale condemnation of all women. Contextually, his musing comes after the event in which Agia attempts to sexually seduce him in order to distract him from some larger event which you now know, but she ultimately fails which leaves Agia extremely angry, yet as Severian notes, still kinda randy.
In my reading of his dichotomy, there are women of the first camp ("if we are to remain men we must offer our lives") which encompass the spectrum of those that desire that classic Disney princess paternalism of a man who must literally be willing to die for her, who offers impossibilities like the moon or eternal love and desire, all the way to women who prefer a more modern egalitarian rewording of 'offer our lives' to simply be faithfulness, loyalty, and affection in a state of monogamy.
The other camp to which Severian condemns Agia is the one he characterizes as those "to remain men...we must overpower and outwit". I believe the saying "if you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best" evokes this type of person pretty well. Agia represents the cohort of women who accept and perpetuate the toxic masculine/feminine divide, who revel in that sort of borderline sadomasochistic destructive interplay. Pick a fight with your partner and then passionately make up, and then fight and then make up, on and on. To them it is true that REAL men are dominate and conquerors. If she acts in a destructive way and is still dominated, it must be because the person is a REAL man. Conversely derived is the implication that if the man is cowed by her actions, he is less than a man, so retroactively deserves the scorn she has spent previously heaping on him.
He essentially sums up at the end of that scene that he recognizes her as really bad Trouble with a capital T, but he's still madly attracted to her. Poor poor stupid Severian.
I do believe Severian has a less than ideal view of women, but I also think if you were to ask him the hypothetical "didn't your parents teach you any manners? or how to treat a lady?" you might arrive at a more favorable view of him.
Yet by and large the world of the Book of the New Sun is very equal and lacks any standout sexual oppression. Especially for a world in a medieval setting. Coming from some previous 'grimdark' fantasy I read where it's the 10th depiction of, 'Here reader is your female POV. Her village was destroyed in a war. Her father and brothers butchered and/or her mother was raped. Women are either nobles or whores. She cant leave the tavern she works at for fear of getting raped in the streets. Still, she gets raped in Book XX as part of her character arc. What's the matter, dont you know this is H I S T O R I C A L L Y A C C U R A T E?" the BOTNS is almost utopian. Almost.
Personally, I'd describe Severian's views on women as a madonna-whore complex. He either sees them as angels like Dorcas or Thecla, or as the worst people ever like Agia or Jolenta.
I mean, I don't blame him for thinking that way. He grew up in an all boys guild where his only relationship with women were as prisoners that could be raped as part of their punishment after all.
The term Saudade: “ a vague and constant desire for something that does not and probably cannot exist, for something other than the present, a turning towards the past or towards the future; not an active discontent or poignant sadness but an indolent dreaming wistfulness.” I think that is the closest term I know to match your 'Nostalgia for something you have never experienced' . I had a similar feeling from the book, but hadn't found how to articulate it. Great video. Really glad you are enjoying it, and appreciating how odd, and layered it is. And of course, our good friend Severian and his constant mental gynmastics ;)
Interesting. In Portuguese “saudade” is a quite common word. “Saudade" is a mixture of feelings of lost, longing, distance, love - everything mixed up. I think there isn’t a word a that can really translate it. Your description of it is very good though.
@@lucianaetrigan Ah that's what it's from then. I think, as far as I can find, that word is the closest approximation of this
Thanks you! A word that cannot be defined sounds like the perfect definition for Botns. Also sounds like one of Severian's everyday words xD
It's interesting how different languages have words that can't really be translated literally, especially in regards to Wolfe's 'translation' of Botns.
One of the central tensions that increases the depth of the book is the fact that we are faced with a society where things like dreams, thoughts, hallucinations, space, and time itself are always under question not only because of the narrator’s mental state but also because of incredibly high technologies that blur the lines between all of those things. Is Severian hallucinating? Is it some sort of mental projection? Or is it something that’s actually real even if it’s a totally crazy image like a woman’s hand as big as a car? Reality becomes harder and harder to pin down because of the world’s science fantasy environment which when combined with Severian’s unreliable narration creates a complex puzzle for the reader to unravel.
Or can some or all of the inconsistencies be attributed to wolfe's translation job...
I feel like I don't really have a grasp of technology in this world yet. I had this feeling that the world might indeed have become so bizarre that the weirdest things and sensory impressions are possible, and I'm curious what is yet to be revealed in that regard. Tbh I wasn't quite sure if hallucinations was the correct word for what's going on with Severian but I chose it for lack of a better world ^^
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn The books is designed more than any other I've read for re-reading. So that might be what it shares with the Malazan Book of the Fallen. There's a podcast about Wolfe called "Re-Reading Wolfe", but I wouldn't jump into that until you've finished the series as it is super spoilery. The technology stuff will become clearer though as you get further (even on a first reading). Though a few key things aren't revealed until very late in the series.
@@nicholasbielik7156 So far I haven't looked anything up about Botns. I don't mind spoilers that much but it's still fun to find out in your own.
Yes, it would be like someone from 200 years ago reading a novel where VRChat plays a critical role in the plot.
I enjoyed listening to your take on the first book in this masterpiece. Keep in mind that this book is a translation of "posthistoric' manuscript, perhaps a sacred one, which has survived many centuries of 'futurity'. See the appendix "A note on Translation". As such the text would be 'unreliable' even without an unreliable (supposedly solitary) narrator. No text survives centuries unaltered. There are passages that jump out at one as being something that some scribe in a long forgotten monastery would think ought to be in The Book.
Without spoiling the books to come, I'd just say examine the concepts of 'posthistoric' and 'surviving centuries of futurity' as possible clues. The Book of the New Sun, among many other things is, not least, a meditation on Time. This is built into the structure of the book and this structure is what makes you feel nostalgia for something you have yet to encounter.
Wolfe reveals what he is up to in the very first words of the text--the poem before the first chapter "A thousand ages in thy sight; are like an evening gone. As short as the watch that ends the night; before the rising sun"
Being a meditation on time, it is also a meditation on identity. This addresses your concern about Severian's character and attitude about women. The narrator, Severian, are many. Not least of which, he is a woman!. You'll see it in future readings--if you read carefully. You'll have to because while the narrator philosophizes and poetizes beautifully and deeply throughout, he's at his best in those seemingly throwaway passages--which show rather than tell.
Don’t forget that Severian is an unreliable narrator who most likely brags about romantic conquests that never happened, or not to the degree that he’d like the reader to think.
Well, my issue is with exactly that, the way he presents things. His unreliability (that I also talked about) is not the point.
Oh so sorry I missed this when it came through! I picked this series up a few months ago and am currently loving it.
The idea that the plot is simple or straightforward is a bit strange. I don't want to spoil anything, but that is far from reality. On its surface you can describe the book as: shit Jesus walks around a bit. That, however, is not the point of the book. I guess if I was going to describe the book it would be as a time traveling buildungsroman.
Wolfe is remarkable in his ability to stay completely true to the point of view of his character exclusively without inserting his own opinions or moralities into them. Since Severian was raised in such a particular cloistered environment, necessarily his viewpoint is extremely skewed. Also he is very young and inexperienced and going through what amounts to a late puberty unsupervised and stumbling headlong through a very crazy series of events.
Great video, though I would like to add a few things that might alter your perception of Severian as a character, especially in regards to his opinions on women and the concept of love. I'm not going to say that his opinions are good, and I will try to avoid (significant) spoilers but continue at your own peril.
His opinions on women and love, are greatly soiled by his interactions with Thecla and Agia(Who are a good portion of the female characters in the book), who both exploited his paltry understanding of what he considered love for their own petty gain. Thecla was the first individual Severian would claim to love and his understanding of the relationship was that it was mutual love. But to Thecla it was entirely as a form of escapism from her impending demise, perhaps appreciation but certainly not love in the strict sense of the word. As to how Severian comes to learn this is spoiler territory, but is a good reason to show why The Book of the New Sun should really be read all at once rather than individually in its parts, since the reader is sometimes left confused by the oftentimes strange and unreasonable behaviour of Severian, which is then explained later. Severian is both benevolent and cruel (He shows kindness and treats the clients to as much extra food he can muster, and yet he facilitates their torture and so on) and this dichotomy is expressed everywhere in his character, which is why he can objectify women and yet also claim to love them, and sprinkle on a little bit of ego inflating locker room talk you get his weird stance on women.(Plus I think that isn't always the same Severian doing the narration) I think it is patently false to claim that Severian is a misogynist, as it is clear that he cannot bring himself to hate or detest anyone or anything throughout the book(Even when it would be perfectly understandable for him to do so), and you shouldn't avoid this book because you disagree with his statements on women. If anything his unsavoury opinion on women is more an indication of his experiences that are being built upto over the course of the book.
Well that was a massive block of text, but I do recommend reading the Book of the New Sun, as you will hopefully find that Severian's poor opinion of women and love doesn't sour the story but in fact comes to make it better especially with what Severian ultimately comes to determine about the nature of love and compassion. There is so much more I could say but I will leave it that.
I've been told that Botns is rather supposed to be seen as one novel but I had a lot of thoughts I wanted to express after book 1 already ^^
I find Severian difficult to properly judge because of the layers in the narration. If we consider him being influenced by his experiences with Thecla and Agia, that still makes him a poor judge of women as a whole (while obviously being a sign of him being a flawed character). I don't know yet how much experience the narrating Severian has with women, but honestly I don't think it matters, because he should either know better if he's had more experience, or refrain from the type of generalisation he makes, if he hasn't. I am not sure yet what i should think of the behavior of the female characters. A benevolent explanation might be that Severian was simply unlucky to run into 2 women that exploited him early on and that his views based on that are reflected in our cast of female characters, similarily to how his mental state is reflected in the narration. Less benevolent to the series is that the way women are portrayed in the book can lead to laying the blame at the female characters' feet, independently from Severian's biased judgement. I cannot pass final judgement here but the latter is...problematic.
Also, loving a woman and being sexist/objectifying women do not rule each other out, unfortuntunately, and Severian is certainly not an exception here. When it comes to discussing sexism and misogyny, the context of society matters, and so far I don't feel like I can judge the society of Botns. That being said, whatever the society's views are, our perspective on it will still be clouded by Severian's biased perception.
By the way, my rant about Severian was not meant to be a criticism of the book. Actually, all of his unreliability and BS do make him interesting as a character, and it shows that human nature can be very contradictory.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn I agree with your more nuanced analysis, I just simply ran out of time. I think all the characters in TBotNS are deeply flawed individuals, and certainly agree that Severian shouldn't be given a pass for his opinions, but I think later in the book his behaviour (I cannot say redeemed) but becomes more nuanced. Which is why I think it makes him and well the rest of the cast, great characters who are fuelled by their ambitions and insecurities and whose actions are being motivated by quite unclear forces until being made apparent later. To top it off we have a narrator who is unable to tell the difference between truth and his mind's fiction. My justification for writing my earlier comment was mainly to get other readers to not avoid the book based on Severian's intial characterisation of women.
@@terminus.est. Absolutely agree that the book should not be avoided because of Severian! Characters being frustraing doesn't have to be a bad thing.
It would have been weird to not address Severian's issues though, especially as a female reader.
Hey I had a question. You mentioned that you have read fantasy books with harder plots? wanted to see what is the most difficult one plot wise that you have read?
One of my favorite series ever
Great breakdown! I read the whole quadrilogy + Urth this year, and my mind was BLOWN to smithereens. I just subscribed to your channel !
Would definitely love to hear more Wolfe stuff from you. I never found the prose/language *too* difficult, knowing a bit of classical language roots lets you pick up most of it. it is impressive how deeply he digs though, not hard to follow but surprisingly arcane.
The actual plot though, oof, i dunno. On the surface it seems simple but I don't think I could at all describe what happens or why, especially into the back half of the series. Definitely going to need a few reads to really grok it.
I'm expecting to feel confused once I'm finished, actually xD It's all really weird, in a good way I guess. I've heard it really profits from a reread.
I enjoyed the prose and was happy it wasn't impossibly difficult to read.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn - It profits from several re-readings. :-) The answers to many seemingly un-answered puzzles really are in there, but boy he does not hold your hand and explain it to you.
The plot is he's trying to do his job.
People who have issues with Severian's takes on women forget that he lives in a time period with traditional gender roles. People who have issues with Severian's takes on women are in denial that there are fundamental differences between men and women - in terms of lived experience due to biology, but also in terms of interests. Severian's takes are not problematic. If anything, he is a keen observer of male/female dynamics. It may be politically incorrect in the 21st century, but doesn't mean they are not valid.
I love Book of the New Sun, but it is difficult in a different way from Malazan. It's more hard to follow because of the multiple layers of unreliable narrator. I'd love to see more Gene Wolfe content from you though!
Yes, I agree! I'm planning to do more content but it's gonna take me a while to finish the series as I want to take my time with it :)
Love your videos :) BOtNS is one of my favorite series and I read it 2x so far. I just love that it is an experience. If you can't know everything you have to feel it and the mystery works your subconscious. Also you always find new things and the meaning evolves. That's the personal aspect I love about reading. So something mysterious and surreal is exactly my thing, cause I'm very intuitive and I like dealing with abstract feelings. Painting with words. Words that are music. Bin gespannt, wie dir die restlichen Bücher gefallen! And I also can't wait until a certain guy with a PhD in fantasy lit takes this on :)))
Thank you! Yes, I enjoy having to figure out stuff about SFF worlds myself, too! I've actually read a theory somewhere online that being intuitive is an important factor when it comes to liking Malazan.
We all know there is only one person who can do an APt discussion of this, right? xD
He interacts with 6 women in the first book, only 1 "falls in love with him within 1 hour" - and that's due to the circumstances of how they met let's say. His a teenager that has very limited exposure to women, other than through his trade. He will fall for most beautiful women he meets, there's nothing strange about that. The strange philosophizing he indulges sometimes is strange.
I would say that there are many aspects of someone that a person can find attractive, maybe Severian isn't just talking about physical attraction? Also, women objectify men as well. This is nothing new.
Well, obviously there are many layers of attraction, and Severian certainly does not limit his judgement to physical appearances.
Yes, women can objectify men, too, but there isn't the same history of sexism behind it. Sexism towards women should never be an excuse to treat men badly, ever. The possibility of women doing it too should not be a justification for men. Men objectifying women sadly has the weight of centuries of internalized sexism behind it, which is why it still, to this day, needs to be called out, which I firmly believe is key to everybody, no matter the gender, becoming a better person.
Great video. You just gained a new subscriber.
Thank you!
I really really enjoyed this. Severian of course is no authority on love or women as you say. This whole memoire and his endless interactions with women is his attempt to figure HIMSELF out -- which he never completely pulls off in this book.
I will say something about his "love and desire" passage at the Inn of Lost Loves. Maybe this will make the passage make more sense.
Severian is not saying "a woman has to be attractive to be loved." Rather he said that "if you desire a woman you will eventually fall in love with her." And "if you love a woman, she will become attractive and desirable to you."
As you probably know by now, he never overcomes his tendency to draw up lists of women he's encountered and compare them. And in those he regularly ranks Agia near the bottom in physical beauty -- trying to determine why he is so attracted to her.
Just came through volume 1(part 1 and 2)! Needed a break to process it all so I'm reading A Canticle for Leibowitz now which is awesome so far. Looking forward to volume 2(part 3 and 4)!
Oh, that was unexpected: I was trying to remember the name of this Book/Series recently, as I read it about 15 years ago. Don't remember much except that I liked it as it was so depressing to read. Not that I was asking for this type of emotions, but I enjoyed how the author put me into the state of the created world (or so I remember it). Or maybe it was this "saudade" mentioned in the comment section.
Also, as I most probably read it in Russian, I believe it was very well translated then. And now I think I should find some time and read it in English to enjoy the original (and see if I struggle. Read Malazan in English, understood almost everything).
Thank you!
Yes, it's not exactly an uplifting read ^^
If you read Malazan in english you'll be fine!
ya they are great miles of conversation for these books
Indeed!
God help me the algorithm has finally recommended me book reviews 😂. At least it recommended me one of the greatest novels ever written.
"It's entirely possible that I might misinterpret things that are made clear later on..." yes, definitely, haha... or at least, they're made less hazy for discerning readers (this is not to say that you aren't). That said, within the context of the book, the views that Severian's shares about women are completely understandable, and actually do a lot for the world-building and character development. I don't think readers need much (if any) more than what you're holding (Shadow and Claw) to piece that together. You do have less than half the story there though, and I think you'd benefit from further reading/contemplation. Besides my curiosity about who you'd consider to be "authorized" to speak about women, I question who else could possibly be a more qualified authority in regards to the women of Urth? I'd hazard to say that literally nobody is better suited than he. Remember, it's very far removed from the sensitivities and structure of our "enlightened" era. Regardless, I'm sure Wolfe would appreciate your passionate response to his writing, haha. I have a theory that those bits you read are almost explicitly for the female audience, if you understand me. I'm trying desperately not to spoil anything here...
I’m planning on rereading the Book of the New Sun this year, and your thoughts were very insightful and interesting. Yup, Severian is up there for Unreliablest Narrator Ever. 😆
I see you haven’t posted in months. Any plans to come back to Booktube? I’d love to see more. 🙂
I hope you do a spoiler talk because I'd love to discuss this more.
I purposefully didn't address the translation aspect because viewers might want to find out on their own, but yes, it certainly adds another layer of unreliability!
I'm not sure (yet) when exactly Severian is telling his story, it's only been hinted that he will become Autarch.
I am planning to do a spoiler-talk eventually :)
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn apologies for any spoilers, it's been a year or so since I've read it and I thought these were things brought up fairly early on. I will edit my comment to avoid spoiling other readers.
@@ryanoneal8480 No problem! I personally don't mind spoilers that much, so no harm done on my side, but thank you for your consideration :)
Great video, I hope you read Claw and post another one. I have not heard a woman's perspective before on these books and aside from the deserved outrage at Severian's immature, inexperienced, and misguided views on women, your thoughts on the rest of the book are interesting too. Keep it up!
its almost comical how poorly he understands women and how much he deludes himself about their views of him. it shouldnt be forgotten that he is the whole time cherrypicking his words around events in an attempt to portray himself in a gratiating light, and that said, this is what he considers to be a glowing account of his journey? lol.
What i find most interesting about re-reading BotNS is trying to understand just why Severian acts the way he does. hes such a thoroughly flawed being
I was wondering if the language would have been a issue but most of the words are just made up or latin. Regardless due the first person narrative a lot just aren't explained. Makes the worldbuilding difficult but it makes perfect sense in the context.
I did eventually look up sabertache which is a real word.
There also really aren't a lot of spoilers. You think there might be one but Wolfe gives you the answer about 150 pages in.
But looking forward to the review.
And AP has this on his list to get to, after he gets done with ICE or if he decides.tondo Dune.
Yes, lots of Latin words! My latin vocabulary is very...ehem...rusty, haven't needed it in 10 years ^^
I'm still avoiding looking up stuff about the world or the meaning of things, but then, I'm expecting to still be confused at the end.
Yeah, AP mentioned he's gonna tackle it eventually, but I couldn't not put in the challenge :)
Alzabo and notule spring to mind when thinking about made up words, but I'm actually hard pressed to think of many others. Even the ones that sounded really made up to me are all existing words, derived from Latin, Greek, French, Italian, etc. Many terms were used specifically in certain historic periods, which doesn't make it easier. More than once did I look up a word just in case, (because common, this is not a real word!) just to discover that actually in fact, it is.
@@dentanau I did recognize many latin words, too. Come to think, do we know when our translator lives??
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn that's a really good question! I never actually stopped to consider that. Strange, that is just never occurred to me to ask myself that question
@@dentanau It could even add another layer if the translator had written it for the audience of his time period!
These books are on my list, so thank you for this. It sounds really up my alley, apart from the "women-thing". I'm curious about what you think of the rest of the books, so i'm definitly looking forward to your next spoiler free discussions of these books.
I'm not sure yet if I'm going to do spoiler-free videos on every book since they're supposed to be seen as one book (I've been told), so I might not have all that much to add after each one, but I will pobably do an update on my final thoughts once I'm done :)
Severian needed to meet someone like this:
ruclips.net/video/Lde4qgB3zYY/видео.html
"You now nothing, Severian"
Just found your channel! Such a great video :) I really appreciate how you brought up Severian's weird weird monologue on women, also how it's important to recognize that a character's views are not always indicative of the author's views. HOWEVER the dead giveaway that you're not going to enjoy a read is usually in the author's characterization of women. I don't want to bash any authors because there's only a handful of men in the world who can actually write women, but wow it is painful reading a book when you have to constantly worry if they're going to bring up a female character and completely break immersion. I think that was probably the biggest strength of Malazan because on my first read I had no idea what anybody really looked like or even what their gender was and I had a very good understanding of their underlying character regardless of those superficial details. Anyway have a wonderful day and thanks for the content
Gene Wolfe ruined reading for me. Nothing comes close. The short sun was his best series. Followed by new sun and then his soldier series.
Glad to find a review by a woman. I had been getting hints it was iffy, but wasn’t sure if it would be deal breaker iffy going off male reviewers who seemed to glass over it.
Honestly though, you going on about Severian's philosophical ruminations on the nature of women. Which by the way you seem to interpret in a very literal sense when in fact they are in my opinion dealing with abstractions. There is so much more to talk about. For example your observation about the feeling of having read the book at a younger age but forgotten it, the feeling of déjà vu, you were onto something very interesting there. Instead you just mention it in passing but then go on about his view on women. Only a woman could get so hung up on these specific points of his character.
Well, it is impossible to do this book justice in a 20 minute video (without abstracting, one might say), that's why I have done a 2 hour discussion collab. But beware, it features not one, but two women.
Having grown up during the time period in which these books were written, I also experienced a sense of deja vu - particularly regarding the way women are portrayed and treated. I had a similar experience while reading your comment. But I’m sure only a woman would get so hung up on these specific points of your character.
@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn btw I don't have anything against women. I'm just not sure why it's even a topic of discussion regarding the narrative of the books. The way you describe it seems lke Severian is describing a woman every other paragraph.
Except for the weakness of the female characters, these might be perfect books. It fills me with joy just thinking of reading them again. If you can get past the seemingly antagonistic nature of the narration toward the reader, you begin to enter a dialog with the books. Wolfe spoke on this often, saying novels should be dialog. There should be a reason to re-read them. Each of the main characters is so much more realized as people because of their flaws in presentation of the story. Eventually, you begin to read with this kind of engrossing paranoia. You start reading and meta-reading at the same time, asking yourself what you know about the wants and perception of the narrator. It's great.
OMG! I thought English was your first language! Maybe it seems perfect to me because I speak it much worse...
But... talking about the New Sun...
I read it after Malazan too and I didn't find it too complex; I was expecting because of some online comments a lot of things to decipher but I found the four books (+1) quite simple except maybe for one element I don't want to spoiler now. I found the story pleasantly dreamlike, unique, with things explained later and others not, but not in a more complex way than Malazan. Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon, that is a very difficult novel ;-)
About the language: I read it in Italian, my mother language. It has some weird words but nothing that cannot be understood thanks to the context.
In the end the books remained in my heart but mainly thanks to some meta-textual-games.
I really did not sympathize with Severian and I suspect his negative relationships with women may be more of Wolfe's problem than a deliberate artistic choice.
Maybe I'll talk more about some aspects in your next Wolfe videos. I'm excited to see them, because I have a strange love for these books and I also really like your analyses.
Having read a lot of Wolfe's books, I'm curious as to why you think the way women are treated or portrayed is a "Wolfe problem" as opposed to how a character he writes sees women. Ive never gotten this hint from him, but happy to be shown I'm wrong if there's other evidence.
@@ryanoneal8480 It's primarily how the women in the books are mostly enemies or sexual objects.
But I have to (and want to) read other novels of the author before developing a final idea on the matter. I have wrote "I suspect" for a reason.
@@fremdaobservanto1205 yes, I would definitely encourage you to read more Wolfe before casting too many aspersions. BotNS is completely in one obviously flawed narrators pov.
Hm, I have not (yet) done any research if Wolfe ever talkes about his intentions regarding the female representation in Botns. However, so far it felt like a deliberate choice to me since Severian's problematic views are so blatantly obvious, and it fits in with his way of presenting and analysing his thoughts in general.
I felt like it was getting a little more difficult to understand towards the end, so I'm curious how I'm gonna feel once I finish the series but so far I love the atmosohere.
There were a bunch of latin words so maybe you have an advantage if you speak Italian, idk :)
Thank you for watching and commenting :)
Thank you for the video. As much as I love the books I just feel like shit about the authors view on gender. I find his depictions of women not literery device but a many dimensional fault. For all god's sakes do we really need all those "heaving bosoms", etc. And Wolfe is not laying a critique of medieval male imagination, rather he is incriminating his own limits.
Yeah he literally falls in love with every woman that crosses his path. It’s almost a bit of a gag. 😂
Bist du deutsch, warum sprichst du englisch?