The TF2 Food Chain (Class Counters in TF2)
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- An exploration into who counters who in TF2 and the best way to illustrate this in a single graphic.
1:30 Researchy Stuff
3:00 Methody Stuff & Caveats
5:42 Class Counters (Table)
7:00 Insights and Analysis
9:14 Class Counters (Flow Diagram)
9:33 Class Counters (Circle Diagram)
10:37 End Bit, probably going too far now with these time stamps
12:15 Bonus Clip
Zatiranyk's Table:
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Jamesiae72's Flow Diagram
/ my_thoughts_about_the_...
NekoRyuk's Circle Diagram (see comments)
www.metabomb.net/overwatch/ga...
FireThePyro's Absolutely Incorrect Diagram
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The true top of the food chain: *Random Crits*
The sad truth hurts
*Laughs with vaccinator*
Random Person melee crits
Kim무이 well, fuck.
*laughs in pan*
The actual TF2 food chain:
Sandvich > Heavy
I believe your food chain is reversed... Unless your talking about a sandwich made of mutant bread.
@Samdaboss Gaming yup, he's done nothing but teleport bread for 3 days and here we are
Sandvich/Banana/Buffalo steak/Chocolate/Fishcake/Metal sandvich/Sandvich with wrapping paper < Heavy
A couple of those are strange but existing food choices
So pootis being eaten by bread is meta now?
@@1mariomaniac that's an arrow painting to the heavy.
Medic: *is countered by everyone*
_gets über_
"Oh how the turn tables"
Uber is useless unless he is ubering someone
@@scatterFr um...ok? That can be true but I don't see your point.
@@1mariomaniac what i am saying is that uber is useless without someone to uber
@@scatterFr I still don't see how that's relevant to my comment, plus it can be used as a safeguard to your own life if something goes wrong. (Pop it don't drop it.)
@@1mariomaniac U cant relly turn tables if there is no one to uber
Demoman can pose a soft counter to Heavy, as if he can quickly burst his massive health pool with 3 pills against an immobile class.
Im bad, but i find using stickies in conjunction with pipes is a MUCH better way to deal with heavies (especially when they have a pocket med)
Just go quickie with stock, shoot two stickies at the hoovy, shoot two pipes while detonating them. Insta kill
@@draconiclegends2007 too much effort. just click head
@@draconiclegends2007 Wait why would you kill a hoovy though? They just wanna give out sandwiches
@@silksongoutyet Whoops wrong term sorry. I would never kill an actual hoovy.
This all makes sense when you take “food chain” metaphorically but we all know in an ACTUAL food chain, Heavy would just eat everyone.
So that's where he gets all the ham for his sandviches...
@@Reragi oof
you just put the worst image in my head-
No the mutant sandwich eats everyone
eat hot chip and lie why does heavy the biggest of the mercenaries not simply eat the others?
pyro hard counters demoknight (air blast)
Most pyros arent smart enough to realize that
Depends on how many heads demo has. Max heads is hard to kill with stock.
@@magikturtle_7628 Really? I just M2 rape them in the corner while they burn and rage quit.
@@Necro2Juggalo that is the best way of putting it I have ever heard
does any class not hard counter demoknight?
I am shocked that you didn’t put pyro as a counter to demoknight. The fact that pyro can permanently keep demoknights out of melee range while dealing afterburn and burst damage to them is definitely a counter.
Yeah demo just cannot kill a pyro if they use airblast.
@@Jpeg_skeleton eihrblast
@@ruileite4579 are you ok?
@@ruileite4579 watch solar light just that spelling is killing me
@@Jpeg_skeleton it's the onomatopoeia for the airblast sound he uses
The bottom of the TF2 food chain: Me
The top of the bottom: Me on a good day
@@SeamstarSmokey Same lol
C H I L L I N at the bottom of the food chain lol
Its you as a medic
@@cuddlefish7798 I'm a medic main
No one :
TF2 Food chain : Let's bully the Engineer
nopeVoice Of Reason
No one meme: *is dead*
Normies: GUYS LOOK AT THIS FUNNY MEME I FOUND
Life of an engineer main
Engineer: Time to use mini sentry
*Laughs in mini-sentry*
I would say that Sniper counters other Snipers because who's better than a class that can literally kill you from across the map in one shot than another class that can literally kill you from across the map in one shot.
Sniper still has that close range weakness but extremely skilled Snipers can instantly quickscope headshot you at very close range making his weakness almost negligible, especially if their team has a strong defence, so who's better countering him than with another Sniper.
also, when there is an enemy sniper, the sniper cant stay calm and aim carefully, because if they stand still aiming away from a sniper, they will get headshotted probably.
CoUnTeR sNiPeInG
At first I thought 'Yeah of course Sniper counters Sniper, I should have mentioned that'. But after thinking about it, in a sniper vs sniper fight, with skill being equal, neither has an advantage, so I don't think this would be considered a counter but it depends on the definition. I came across another term called 'copy counter' when you just copy what the enemy is doing to try and counter them so I guess this would be the best way to describe it.
Or y'know, bullshit your way with the huntsman ridiculous hitbox for the close range stuff.
@@Toofty If you take sniper to deal with a sniper, it should probably be called a counter tho lol
I'd like to point out that as a Heavy main with many many hours on him I believe that Demo counters Heavy completely. Assuming neither have a Medic and both are at an average, exact same skill level, all a Demo has to do is just hit Heavy three time with some pipes. And if he misses, usually his Stickies will finish him off in a heartbeat.
Good point counter point as pyro i protect the heavy with my life.
@@natesmith7217 thank you for putting the team in team fortress 2
Three pills to a medicless heavy is just such an easy kill
me playing demo- misses all my shot in the heavy point blank range while i watch my suffering unfolds as I die while reloading
EXCEPT he have the fist of steel
“Heavy Medic combo counters everyone”
Sniper and Spy: Hold my jarate and cigarette
Also:A demo medic combo would destroy them, scout or soldier could atleast trade their life for the medic's, a full reved up brass beast heavy would destroy them even without a medic, pyro can airblast them away, level 3 sentrys have a massive minigun resistance. Not as big as the minigun resistance of the mvm tanks but still
Depends on the skill level a good heavy can't get stabbed easily and a good medic normally usé vaccinator to quite the sniper counter obviously a 20 Hours heavy and a 15 Hours medic are ni problem but a good medic and a good heavy can make a giga counter (im a main heavy with 400 Hours on the class)
Hold my 100 percent Uber charged Medi gun
@@eh2587 heavy can easily destroy sentries if the engineer places them in a spot where weird map geometry lets him shoot it without getting shot by it
As a heavy main and a medic main, spy does not work as a counter against such a combo if either one of them are pulling their weight. Sniper however...
The most effective way to avoid dying to a sniper is just to uninstall the game, otherwise accept the fact that you are going to get headshot several times each round if there's a competent sniper on the enemy team
"heavy being pocketed by a medic counters everyone"
-laughs in fully charged headshot and backstab
*laughs in vaccinator and basic awareness
@@876r2rfs vacinator wont help alot since you'll have to change the resistance due to other classes spamming
you can uber and switch to another resistance, y'know
it only takes like 12 seconds to get a point of uber
@@876r2rfs ye tru forgot about that
@@876r2rfs dont see it getting used alot so i just forgot it exists
Heavy with medic counters everyone except teleporters.
U can telephrag people with über
Also Heavy with Holiday Punch
telefrag*
I have telefragged an Uber combo and it’s truly a transcendent moment to kill the invincible.
Nabil Mouasher KILL THE GODS WITH SCIENCE!
Taunt kills counter it too.
Engi with sentry : looks strong but actually is weak
Engi without sentry : looks weak but stronger that you think
Engi with mini-sentry : looks weak but annoying and strong and high re-buildable thing is combined. It means
*RUN*
_I have a _*_shotgun_*
I have a *red tape recorder*
“What kind of defense is this?!”
“I AM THE DEFENSE”
He said Razorback. diamondback*
@@BlackMoonlight759 can someone kill the uncle Dane wannabe
ah yes, my favourite league of legends character, tjorbjorn
Personally I prefer legolas
The best character is either R2-D2 or Groot
I think gambit is the best league character
@@jeffreychen1045 I think it's lego-lass
I prefer bu uh uhh
And Demopan counters every class
P Y R O A I R B L A S T
@@memebot4320 tf2 merceneries doesn't have souls acording to the lore medic stole them and added to himslef this is why they can't stay dead and medic has more then one soul and everytime he dies he just bargains whit the devil and comes back to life
It doesnt even need to be demo, it just needs :PÄÑ
@@keagers_oh_mine1629
*airbasts*
@@pighater1111 oh dear god
Okay I have to argue the fact that Heavy is infact a hard-counter to Pyro, since Heavy fires bullets instead of projectiles, that means that the Pyro cannot reflect anything. Heavy's huge damage ramp-up and his health will quickly dispatch a Pyro before it can kill him, and most Heavys with the sandvich will come out fine. Of course, flareguns are also an weapon for Pyros to have, but it is only a minor hinderance since Heavy can retreat and heal up.
While i agree with all of this, there is a situation where this can maybe end up having pyro kill the heavy. The pyro sets heavy on fire, heavy retreats to eat sandvich, and then pyro burns heavy while he is stuck in sandvich taunt. However, most of the time it does not work like this, still thought it is an important thing to consider.
@@a.person1805
You make it sound like afterburn is anything but a minor nuisance that's only sometimes dangerous.
The only real way for a pyro to down a hoovy is by surprise. Ambush Misha and don't let up on the trigger until he's crispy.
And clearly the counter there is just slap on Nat and turn your sensitivity up by a tenfold
Actually if heavy dont have medic pyro can outplay him, but only on certain maps or with very risky combo what work only on 300 hp heavy
@@fabianromowiczcz3085 Nope I have never seen a pyro outplay a heavy in a 1v1 situation, where both are at their full/mostly full hp. The only situations where pyro is able to kill heavy is when either heavy is low on health or focusing someone else and pyro has a backburner.
Toofty: "Unless your a god at airblasting"
LazyPurple as Pyro: "Hold my beer"
Our example to follow as Pyro mains
LazyPurple is a TF2 Main xD
Sketchek: "I am 4 parallel universes above you"
gotta protect my baby
Kristianma and Sketchek*
I'd rather say spy is a soft-counter to engie
Unless you get the engie when distracted (good engies spycheck 90% of the time), you cannot really fight him directly, since
A) the shotgun outdamages the revolver (the amby fixes this but still)
B) if you fight the engie he can simply unsap his sentry and the sentry will kill you
C) smart engies don't get trickstabbed
Spy can ruin the engie's life on certain situations (like when using the gunslinger) but for the most part is just a minor annoyance
Exactly.
Also FINALLY someone besides me who realised that shotgun outdamages revolver(revolver at max ramp up, only does 60 dmg, meaning Spy physically can't two shot Engy but Engy can with wrench or Shotgun)
actually everything is right but even the most skilled players get trickstabbed even b4nny the best tf2 player gets trickstabbed
If a spy is coordinated, he can sap your sentry the moment his team comes in. There is almost nothing you can do about that, unless you are permenantly wrangled and rocketing approaching teammates
Engie also has a tool to counter spies, aka the pomson which reduces übercharge on medics AND reduces cloak meter on hit, and the Southern Hospitality exists which adds a bleed effect on hit to a spy.
As an engineer main this is true
No one:
Medic mains:
The ubersaw > Everyone
Theyre not wrong
No One:
Spy mains: “If you could use the deadringer as skillfully as i do, you could be better than everyone, like me ohohohoho”
Nobody memes are barely jokes
@@vbgvbg1133
Same goes for you, tizmoid
Alice Margatroid R A N D O M C R I T
I know I'm late to the party.
I main medic, and this video didn't have a lot to say about medic, so I'm going to throw in my two cents.
It's true that every other class has more firepower than you, but some are more dangerous to you than others.
A scout, sniper, pyro, and soldier are your biggest problems. They either have high mobility, or can kill you from far away, and all of them have the firepower to kill you easily. They're your biggest counter.
Then there's demo and heavy. It's true that demo can sticky jump, but they deal so much damage to him that unless the demo is very good, he won't be able to do it a lot or at all. So those classes can kill you easily, but they're low mobility generally means that they won't surprise attack you.
Spy and engie are usually the smallest problems for you. Because your medigun will heal your patient no matter where you look, you can constantly be checking your back, even in the middle of a fight. And engies are not usually a threat unless you're blundering into a sentry.
But as a medic, your biggest friend is any of your power classes. Almost anybody of equal skill to you can gun you down if you're on your own. So, stick close to your teammates and run away like a lil bitch if they die.
Medic can do amazing trickstabs to basically anyone except heavy with full health. It's rare, but if they're not aware of your presence, go for that backstab with the confidence of "the ubersaw has too much crits" and hope you can get that ubercharge if then you're circled, pop it and run back like a bitch but with more dignity.
Seriously. Melee fighting a medic is dangerous, boys. But you're fucked if anyone's shooting at you. Except wm1 pyros, blutsauger saves your life and kills him.
True you might be soft countered by those classes.
But you **also** soft counter those classes (except sniper) on virtue of buffing your teammates enough to deal with those classes.
Medic pretty much hard counters engineer and is soft countered by sniper.
If this whole comment is 2 cents I don't want a dollar
The reason I play a protective Pyro: Help my teammates. Help the medic too.
But also to Spy check and remove projectiles and explosives.
Yea there’s so many cocky scouts and demo knights that’s are so predictable it’s funny
Imo heavy is a strong counter to pyro, he melts the pyro and is in relatively good shape afterwards especially as he can just eat a sandvich and be at full health
In a straight-up fight, yes. But with pyro’s mobility, he can flank the heavy and deal a lot of damage before he can get his minigun readied.
@@Jamseth_Ingramious *laughs in brass beast*
Strong counter is stretching it, if Pyro if heading a heavy head on then that pyro will be dead while Heavy will be at good shape but if Heavy gets flanked from the side or behind the Heavy is either dead or in bad shape. If a Pyro is close enough when it starts shooting then the Heavy won’t be able to ready and turn in before the Pyro skirts around him. Now this is in a one on one situation which isn’t likely, a Heavy will most likely be at the center of the map meaning team mates will be at the ready for either side so while Pyro may take the Heavy down he’ll be in a pretty bad shape and get finished by a opposing class.
@@hmmm4989 *Laughs in degreaser and panic attack*
@@justdem1490 idk why I even made my comment, maybe I didn't know the brass beast was slower. OR I mistook it with the tomislav. I was new back then.
4:40 your eternal reward in a nutshell
Why I use sometimes
Medic is the most powerful class so everyone in enemy Team want him dead.
So medic can counter everyone, but everyone also counters medic.
George Kourgialis a really good way to put it
@@keyring5080 Pretty much, yeah. A Medic is so powerful he can literally change the tide of combat and turn a relentless beatdown into a steamroll.
Medic on his own lacks the firepower, having upwards of 130~140 DPS with his primary weapon (unless you are using the crossbow, that one has a much lower DPS).
However, what the Medic lacks in firepower, he does make up for with random crit chance. So really, a Medic could potentially be incredibly powerful in either a melee situation or when escaping an enemy (more often than not, the enemy faces defeat if the Medic can lead his projectiles well enough).
But he lacks in the other compartments and is extremely reliant on a good team to keep him alive.
I play as Medic and managed to kill a Sniper _with my crossbow._
@@RagoxHatena Well it is a man who would laugh maniacally when doing a heart procedure for Heavy.
Uber medic counters everyone *except* for pyro.
Pyro is a hard counter for Uber medic (except when using the Phlog).
Against ubered Medic alone - sure, but against a combo - you're very likely to die.
Also, the Quick-fix completely counters airblast.
Cinex true, but that’s vulnerable to everything else.
QuickFix leaves you vulnerable.
I used to main medic (and still play him a ton) & have really taken up pyro lately.
If a combo is focused on something a pyro can take advantage, it just depends on skills.
wel that means that you wont have a problem XDD
don't forget the dragon's fury. also pyro doesnt guarantee the possibility of an uber deny, just makes it possible. not really a hard counter.
Demo and Soldier are also a soft counter against über Medic except if he use quick fix then he is hard counter for all of the three and countered by engineer.
random crits: counter every class
vaccinator: counter random crits
melee crits: counter vaccinator
Air blast can kinda counter everything here.
Random crit projectile > air blast
Vac medic > air blast
Melee > air blast
@@BongBong-Gaming Random crit hitscan > airblast
Uber > Random crits (including melee)
Airblast > Uber
1:11
Here we see the wild spy trying to flee a ferocious scout,as his last resort,he jumps down to the first floor,only to fall to a clumsy and painful death
4:40 I just love seeing those little skits that you can witness in TF2, the innocence in both of the players and stuff
A heavy with medic counters everyone in the game
A phlog pyro with medic breathes heavily in the corner
Heavy medics are easy to counter. Especially with pyro with the ability to airblast.
kritz rocketjumper op
How to deal with a heavy medic combo
-3 engies
-another medic
-a pyro from behind the corner
@@jaredsmith1998 Cool so we'll just use around half our team to kill 1/6th of their's.
Great team plan, can't wait to get screwed afterwards.
Tainted Nimbus It was 3 different methods lol
Pyro counter's demoknight
Reason: they can airblast them back
Crazy that he didn’t mention that - its one of the hardest counters in the game.
A demoknight can literally do nothing against a pyro who knows how to press m2
@@oofouchowie6425 Well, a demoknight can do one thing: tomfoolery. If I had a refined metal for every time I've killed someone as demoknight by just doing some wacky stuff and hoping they don't react in time/know what to do against it, I'd be able to make a generic unboxing video.
8:04 "I feel like i can just run away from the demoknight" **Gets killed by demoknight**
that's a demopan
I know this was months ago but I can't believe you missed the fact that pyro hard counters demoknight.
meh not real haerd counters since his should makes it have almost 0 afterburn dmg
@ Airblast. When talking about a demo knight without booties then things get a little complicated
Fire counters knight too
@@eh2587 that’s hybrid knight, also a pyro could also reflect the grenade launcher
@@brody2611 the grenade launcher fires faster than a pyro can airblast
With those "situational" counters like scout vs demoknight and pyro vs sniper, couldn't you say that they both soft-counter each other? So they both have transparant sculls against each other on the diagram. Because they can both exploit the other's weakness.
Sniper: *laughs in 150 dmg quickscope shot at 2 feet away from a scout* all your heads look 12 feet tall
Heavy: *Laughs in vaccinator medic making your fully charged headshot do a whopping 38 damage*
When i saw Spy as an known counter i laughed so hard, because Jarate Bushwacka w1 + m1
As for demoknight and his counters in general, I'd say he hard counters spy, trolldier, and Vaccinator medics. He also soft counters scout and demoMAN.
He is absolutely hard countered, and by that I mean completley shut down by heavy, sentry guns, and Pyro (if he can airblast properly.)
He's also soft countered by sniper, scout, and Soldier.
Demoknight needs to get in melee range of his opponent, that is his primary weakness. His shield charge, resistances, and increased melee range help compensate for that weakness.
Any class that can nullify those advantages by either outdamaging Demoknight at melee range (Heavy, sentries, Scout.) or by making it impossible for him to get in range in the first place (Heavy, sentries, scout, sniper, pyro, soldier.) can effectively shut him down if they know what they are doing.
However, if he gets in melee range it's only a matter of time before he kills you.
Natasha heavy
If it's a samurai demo vs samurai demo or soldier it's a matter of time of who hits first but if its eyelander demoknight then the best counter is don't let him get heads (look at the eyes)
Curious how demoknight hard counters spy and trolldier?
@@meeperdudeify because they move fast. And remember trolldiers cant hit you if you're out of their melee range. Spies also the same thing. It's hard to kill a pro demoknight who has a lot longer range on his melees
@@meeperdudeify Demoknight can completely outrange spy, and unless you're a god at trickstabs he's going to kill you in 2 hits.
Trolldier only has one powerful attack up his sleeve, if a Demoknight has some heads rolling they're going to survive the crit swing or dodge it entirely.
"Pocketed heavy counters everyone in the world"
Spy&Sniper: Say hello to me little friend!
yeah, and in mid-range, heavy can make sniper flinch.
**Explodes**
Vaccinator go brrrrr
Only if Quick Fix or Kritzkrieg
For sniper i just try to instinctively crouch
For spy: *just turn around*
I would add. Scout soft counters pyro. Heavy soft counters soldier. And the biggest one demo counters heavy. But the real issue here is that some classes excel 1v1 some in groups. Some classes excel in the open some in close spaces. These traits are often much stronger than class vs class dynamics. Also pyro is kinda a special class who acts more like medic in the sense that they provide utility and special plays more than counters.
Big agree.
Heavy counters soldier? hahaha, sure, you clearly haven't played enough to get instakilled by a crocket, you know, what happens when soldiers just hold down click at the capture point
@Jonald Grump When Random crits is so prevalent that weapons are balanced around it, you can't talk about balance without them
Scout vs Pyro is mostly a matter of circumstance and skill. On open ground the Scout can keep his distance but in closed-in environments the pyro can air-blast the scout into a corner unless the scout is so skilled that he can aim his gun whilst being air-blasted but if he's completely disorientated by airblasts then the Pyro stands a chance on open ground if the scout gets too close.
Soldier can peak a Heavy from a substantial range so it's not a hard counter. Demo mostly just counters a heavy who sticks to the cart.
Also Pyro can act a flanker but a Pyro acting as point-defense will hard counter a flanking pyro because he'll have his team to break the dead-lock of W+M1 battles.
NANCOK you haven’t played enough to learn your rollout and then get hard tracked by a heavy and get shredded out of the air.
Where’s medic? I guess everyone knows he counters everyone. Syringe gun is definitely the best weapon in the game
ah yes syringe gun
the advanced nail gun
and a mini minigun for medic
it deal high DPS
for some reason its overshadowed by crossbow >:(
why? syringe is gud
why hey pick crossbow
are they META dude or Medick
The syringe gun is OP. It needs to have a range of 100 hammer units, do 1 damage, and have the fire rate of a sniper rifle.
@@hmmm4989 yeah OP and Trash in same time
I mean OP in melee range
and tRash in Long range
You're right about demoman mainly countering engineer, but demoman also counters every class near doors, corners, or the payload.
Wait though, in my experience, Pyro counters Demo and Demoknight pretty hard. Because Demo lacks any kind of hitscan weapon, Pyro can not only reflect all of his projectiles, but also keep a charging demo out of arms reach (which isn't very hard to see coming sense Demo screams at the top of his lungs to announce to the world that he's making a charge.)
If a Demoknight comes to Pyro, Pyro can simply puff him away if he gets to close and burn/shoot him from medium distance. and sense it'll always be a uphill fight for the Demo, Demo either has to run away or wait for a teammate to come in order to have even a chance at surviving (unless Pyro uses a backburner or dragon's fury)
and before you say, Yes Ik targe has strong fire resistance, but that doesn't make them resistant to air blast, that just means they're going to die slightly slower.
There is a weird caveat to Demoman vs Pyro that makes it less clear-cut: both the Grenade Launcher and the Stickybomb Launcher have a faster fire rate than the Flamethrower's airboat rate, meaning they'll still hit you with some shots if they spam enough. Also, reflected stickies really aren't a direct threat to Demoman.
Pyros for some reason have a much harder time airblasting grenades and especially stickies than rockets in my experience. Also air-detonating stickies or loose cannon counters airblast.
Depends on the range. Airblasting stickies is effectively worthless if he detonates them in your face or has them between the two of you, leaving him to freely pop you with pills during your airblast cooldown.
@@xyzzy-dv6te From my own experience there are two factors that make airblasting grenades and stickies much harder than rockets. The biggest factor is that the grenade launcher unlike the rocket launcher doesn't show when it's about to fire; so in a close quarters confrontation the pyro has very little to no time to react depending on their latency. Second factor is that the grenade/sticky launcher shoots faster than the flamethrower airblasts so pyros have to evaluate if a projectile should be blasted back or ignored.
Also the reason stickies are even more effective probably boils down to inexperience since it's surprisingly rare that demomen use the sticky launcher against pyros.
I think tf2 doesn't have as much counters as you think it does. Sure, engie obviously > scout, but for things like sniper > pyro the line becomes blurry and is best described as 8:00
Sniper does not have anything that specifically counters pyro other than his range which can apply to anyone when their far away from him. This can also be twisted in the opposite, if the pyro is close to the sniper, does that make pyro the counter to sniper?
I think it is more like this: A class can counter ANYONE if the situation is in their favour. For example, spy can theoretically be a counter to pyro if the pyro has no reason to believe there's a spy near him hence being an easy target for spy. This is because stealth is spys strength
good point. although in for example pyro vs sniper unlike other classes pyro just stops doing damage at a certain range. remember that counters are about an overall advantage. no one can win just because they have a good counter. yeah it is especially true in tf2 as was already mentioned in the video but there are still bound to be statistically some advantages between classes, and some are also put in on purpose.
Spy if not noticed can counter anything except uber. If nobody notices the spy, the spy kills everyone. however, if the spy is noticed, he will die quickly unless he escapes, or is Starykrow or Swipez.
@@vbgvbg1133 yeah every class can kill the entire team if nobody notices them. You either have a good flank route where you're better off with scout or something, or you walk through the enemy team which should have been spy checking all this time.
Guy Ender Yeah. However, most people would notice taking damage. Spy is the most dangerous class if unnoticed, but the easiest to deal with, unless its Starykrow or Swipez
massive idiot Darwin’s danger shield strong counters pyro
Here I was hoping you were going to give us tasty recipes for how to cook each class
You did a hella great job pal'. Keep doing vid's like that one))
0/10 didn't put pyro at the top of the food chain
*laughs in competitive*
*laughs in casual*
*laughs in community servers*
*_laughs in all game classes_*
@@danforce4222 2pockets means less uber
The higher level of play you are in, The more the counter relies on skill rather than the class itself.
Yes, exactly. Nice way of putting it.
Since when do crit rockets require skill?
@@rompevuevitos222 thats why in comp there are no random crits
@@justanalias5642 So everyone agrees that crits are not balanced and they refuse to remove them? this comunity really has problems
I mean, they remove an entire aspect around wich weapons are "balanced" and they still fail to see the issue with said aspect
@@rompevuevitos222 noone uses those weapons tho
Pyro for sure counters Demoknight because of the airblast which can corner him while he's on fire, this is extremely difficult to get out of if you have 2 pyros constantly airblasting you into a corner, or one airblasting you, and the other constantly dosing you in flame.
2 parts got a chuckle out of me that were in the background gameplay
4:42 a pyro taunts then gets backstabbed by a spy with the thing that makes you turn into whoever you backstab during the brief turn around
8:15 Someone wants a melee fight of honor
I think these diagrams are fairly accurate, however in competitive play it changes a bit. Pyro is rarely run since skilled scouts completely shut him down from a distance, making him less viable.
It's a bit situational, especially in regards to player skill and environment; Against less skilled Scouts, Pyro can be a real threat since the flamethrower and its after burn can chew through Scout's small health pool very quickly. It takes a competent scout to get around this; in tight spaces, Pyro usually wins since Scout has less room to maneuver
It _is_ situational, but this is also what the Thermal Thruster is for. The week it came out I said it's a game changer, and only now am I starting to see people use it properly... after copying me mostly
5:03 Red medic heals blu soldier.
Toofty: wait that’s illegal
@Pikachu is cun kinda r/woooosh
@@Arslan35 well it is actually a red spy and we do get the joke.
@@cultleaderofmonke4758 _kinda_
@@Arslan35 how so?
@@cultleaderofmonke4758 you need to explain to urself
The demo knight vs scout comparison is a tricky one, for example a freshly spawned eye-lander demo can be an easy pick for a scout, but one with max heads can out-run a scout making him an easy pick, other influencing factors like shield choice and melee choice can really mix that up even more, tide turner charge focused demoknights/hybrid knights tend to do best out of the gate
I think that pyro is a hard counter to demo knight because of the combination of air last and fire damage
Medic: exists
ToofyTV: *I'll pretend I didn't see that*
I was about to say that. I mean yeah, he's the healing class but when cornored melee medic is strong. And blutsauger is wonderful against w+m1 pyros.
Here’s a dumb little story of me playing “Sentry Heavy”
Once on Upward, I was using the brass beast and sitting next to a levels one dispenser and shooting people. It was fun until I heard “I am fully charged!” on the other team. Then, I saw an Uber Pyro with his pocket medic coming right towards me. Since I was having fun role playing as a sentry gun, I just continued to shoot at the Uber Pyro. He then pulled out her melee and started wacking me. Their Uber ran out so I murdered The Pyro and the medic just ran for his life.
After that, I thought of calling my friend on discord and getting him to play engie and build a dispenser for me to be “Sentry Heavy” again.
Lol
"Sentry goin' up!"
"YATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATA!'
Heavy may not outsmart bullet
But he outsmart Uber
The fact that you're trying to leave pyro's gender unknown made me happy
An image of Sentry Heavy from Lazypurple kicks in defeating a soldier offscreen.
Whenever I think of making a table, I always make the medic slot how well he synergizes with the class for example
Starting the match scout is a great pocket giving you a faster rollout while building Uber
On the point on defense a heavy is a great heal target because he just won't die with good awareness
As a medic main I use every medigun except for vacc and when I use kritz pyros are good on defense and decent on offense
You can have a pocket soldier or demo to screw over engineers
Spy uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......
Overheal snipers so they can survive a quick scope headshot
Healing engineers gives them the capability to survive rocket spam towards there sentry guns and ubering them while they carry the gun is an invincible sentry
Healing other medics give them similar benefits but instead of rockets and a sentry it's whoever they're pocketing so they can stay with their pocket for longer periods
Just easy to give info like this is how I'd graph medic
I haven’t been playing for too long, maybe about two weeks up to this point, but your Pyro vs. Sniper point kinda makes sense. I managed to find a Scorch Shot and I’ve worked on the aim enough to be able to hit Snipers across 2Fort with it
Any good sniper should be able to headshot you for attempting to flare him, but if the sniper seems focused on something else it can be a good way to screw with their aim since the fire damage makes them flinch.
Pyro vs Demoknight is possibly the biggest mismatch in the game. Unlike Heavy where you can at least get a hit in before dying, a somewhat competent Pyro is *completely* invulnerable to a Demoknight (unless he's using the Phlog)
John Smith Unless said pyro with phlog has crits oof
I was honestly waiting for someone to make this video. Idk who, but someone. And you did it! Thanks dude!
No probs, glad you enjoyed!
**Like** if you speak more than one language!
Если **РУССКИЙ** ставь лайк!
Me too
@@Polyglot_English bot!
I like how you added demoknight as another class
3:58 I think the person who wrote that was talking about a ‘counter’, as in counterattack or a response to an attack. The soft counter I think you are talking about is something that partially nullifies or is somewhat good against something else, like you said pyros air blast and soldier.
“Heavy pocketed by a medic hard counters everyone”
Me: Demoman pocketed by a medic destroys them, demoman without a medic can still probably 1v2 them. Sniper counters them. Spy counters them. Soldier can at least drop the medic. Heavy doesn’t output enough damage to take down a sentry if the engineer is skilled with the wrangler.
Panda Chong Pyro can also airblast them away
Boba Fett there’s a lot of others things I didn’t mention as well.
Another thing:a fully reved up brass beast heavy alone would destroy them unless they have uber
1:10 that spy's ragdoll reminded me of the vine "we back at it a gain at Krispy Kreme
spy: BACK AT IT AGAIN AT RED'S BREAD
spy: *jumps into the sign, dies and turns blu*
How do you only have 50k, your channel is epic af
"Heavy being pocketed by a medic counters everyone"
Sniping is a good job mate
From my Pyro experience:
Scout: good against Pyro, but is very likely to die, if he enters the flamethrower's range.
Soldier: same as in the video.
Pyro: shotgun for the win.
Demoman: I often find Demo as a counter to Pyro. His grenade launcher has lower attack interval than the airblast and the stickies are the only reflectable projectiles, that don't get neutralized by airblast.
Heavy: good against Pyro, but very likely to die, if he gets ambushed.
Engineer: yes, Pyro sucks against sentries by himself, but he can reflect its rockets to kill the Engie. He can also use the Panic Attack to quickly destroy mini-sentries, that the Engineer puts down when he retreats.
Medic: Pyro counters stock uber and crit-boosted Soldiers and Demos, but gets shut down by the Quick-fix. He is fairly good against Vaccinator, since he can use both fire and bullets and has a strong arsenal of melee weapons.
Sniper: same as in the video.
Spy: toast.
Honestly from playing pyro, I find that besides heavy and a good sniper, a decent scout is a very good counter, even if they do get in range of your flamethrower, as soon as you whip out your flare gun they don't stop jumping a good scout will usually evade you
@@idkidkidk123 Scout is one of the cases where I'd recommend going Shotgun. Yes, high-level Scouts are hard to hit with a Flaregun, but the Shotgun makes things a bit more even. It's basically a slightly worse Scattergun, but you have more health and the Scout may or may not be on fire.
I agree but also Pyros are great against demoknights though, at least if you can airblast them when they try to charge
Also the weapons from the jungle inferno update can change this too as the jetpack can make you get pretty close to a sniper and the flamethrower has an absurd longer range
@@Xhelah207 but you need to aim, and the only reason most people play pyro is to not have to aim!
Spy: Burnt Baguette
If you like info graphics...
Then you’re INFO a treat XD XD XD XD XD XDXDXDSXXASX
end me
I'm afraid no, or time would collapse.
Bro, you just posted cringe!!!
Infographics: YOU vs TF2 HEAVY
Unless YT is acting up again your comment (while not viewing replies) is the last comment I made.
XD CD XD X D XD XD XD XD XD
When you put the counters for demoknight I thought "hey what about scout", but you're right that it seems to vary a lot depending on the situation
Honestly, I'd say that Pyro is a fairly decent counter to Demoknight as well. Considering how it relies on getting into melee range, a competent pyro who knows how to time his airblasts is able to basically keep a demoknight at bay on their own.
Personal revisions:
Demo can counter heavy pretty easily whenever there's an ounce of cover to hide behind (even with a medic).
Heavy hard counters pyro, pyro cant approach a revved up heavy easily (at all) and even if you catch him unrevved he can still rev up, kill you, and be left with enough time to eat a sandwich.
Pyro has at best an even matchup with soldier if the soldier has a shotgun. Not even a soft counter at that point.
Spy is too easy to consistently play around to be considered a significant counter to anything.
Heavy is not countered by spy and has at worst an even matchup, at best heavy is doing the countering being the second best spychecker in the game.
The mere existence of the razorback gives a sniper or his team enough time to react and kill a spy.
I'll concede that Engie is soft countered by spy but only in the sense that he can disable a sentry long enough for a demo/soldier to kill it.
Heavy counters scout harder than many people want to admit.
Sniper counters himself.
Pyro counters demoknight.
Pyro:
hard counters: spy, medic, demoknight/hybrid anyone at close range (unless they are a heavy), ubercharged classes (except phlogs and quickfix uber)
Soft counters: sniper without the cozy camper (detonator or any flaregun), shortstop scouts at close range (huge knockback added)
I would also like to add, a decent scout vs a decent pyro will most likely result in a scout win, I'd say its at least a soft counter
I disagree with the Razorback. The soy has a revolver
Trolldier (a meme subclass almost as common as demoknight): Counters sniper, medic, and gunslinger engie. Is countered by heavy, scout, normal soldiers (soft, the rest are hard counters in my experience), demo (of all flavors), and other engies.
This assumes all players involved in the matchup are of approximately equal skill. Just spitballing.
You can ambush with the backburner while they arent revved up.
How to hard counter demoknight: right click with your primary weapon as pyro.
Hoo boi, I can't wait to use my P H L O G primary to kill a demoknight
*_p h l o g_*
Paul Braley as not really
blutsager battle medic has worked out for me way more than it shouldve
I believe any ubered class vs pyro is two options: a soft or hard counter. This depends on map and positioning. If they aren’t near any Instant death areas, than all pyro can do is survive and stall out the Uber, thus making a soft counter. If they are near an insta-death area, pyro can air blast them off the map and kill the Uber and the players, thus making a hard counter.
Skill is the ability to bolster your class' strengths and overcome its weaknesses in order to fulfill its role. A Sniper is a long-range class that prioritizes killing small health targets at a distance or cripple bigger health targets to help his team deal with them. The Sniper's secondary is the opposite : dish out small damage to a single close quarters enemy quickly to lower their health and give him a chance to escape. It's also used to finish off enemies on low health. If a Sniper is on the front lines, he'll most certainly die (weakness), or simply won't be as efficient. If a Sniper practices his aiming, then he can dish out his instant crippling damage on enemies more often, and help the team tremendously (strength). If he has a different secondary weapon (i.e. Cozy Camper) then he might be at a disadvantage when ambushed (weakness). However, if his aiming and reflexes are excellent, he can deal headshots on closer enemies too (overcame weakness). So he could technically counter any class under or equal to 150 HP, no matter the distance. But game-wise, he should be vulnerable to any ambush (or other Snipers) or under fire. If two enemies jump on him, he's a goner! Even a Soldier shooting rockets at him from a distance could put the Sniper at bay. It prevents the Sniper from doing his job since he cannot cripple down the enemy team. And I think that's what the counters should be evaluated on. Not the classes, since they are extremely versatile, but their jobs. Scout : it's a short-range class that prioritizes distracting the enemy team or playing the objective. Soldier : it's a medium-range class that prioritizes dealing great damage to or provide pressure to the enemy team. Pyro : it's a short-range class that prioritizes ambushing the enemy team or protecting his team from enemy ambushes (hence why the compression blast wasn't a thing for Pyro at the time). Demo : it's a medium-range class that prioritizes dealing heavy damage to the enemy team or pushing the enemy team back to allow his team to advance (basically, secure the front lines). Heavy : it's a medium-range class that prioritizes killing enemies breaching the front lines or assist in crippling down enemies at the front lines. Engy : it's a short to medium-range class that prioritizes punishing enemies going behind his team and provide his team the means to maintain the front lines. Medic : it's a short-range class that prioritizes negating the enemy's work (might be better worded) and helping his teammates fulfill their roles. Spy : it's a short-range class that prioritizes wearing down the enemy team and alleviate the work of his teammates. Based on these definitions (or mindset at least), most if not all tools and play styles allows these roles to be fulfilled. Demoknights can dish out heavy damage on a single target (swords are around 195 dmg on crit charge if I remember), and killing Snipers, Soldiers or Demos helps his team in slowing pushing through the front lines, for example. Snipers have an easier job taking out Scouts, Engies, Medics, Snipers, and Spies. The Scouts are fast, so it's a bit harder, and Spies are mostly invisible, so it's extremely hard to take care of them. Pyroes can be easily crippled down, Demos and Soldiers are harder to deal with, and a Heavy is a very easy target as long as the Sniper isn't under his fire. So Sniper counters Heavies, Engies, Medics, and Snipers, since that's what his role is best at. Scouts, Pyroes, and Spies are harder to deal with, since they are mostly ambushing, taking cover, basically not being on the front lines where the Sniper can see them. Soldiers and Demos are more of a neutral state, since they excel in pressuring their enemies, and can easily cancel the Sniper's role. But when they aren't, then the Sniper has the advantage. Which is why those two are counters to the Sniper, as well as Scouts (distracting the Sniper), Spies (taking out the Sniper), other Snipers (dealing with small health targets at a distance), and Pyroes (ambushing the Sniper). For Medics, since their role is to negate the enemy's work (be it an uber to break their defense or healing teammates to patch up the damage they received), they are a counter to every class, including enemy Medics. However, since their role is to negate the enemy's work, they can be countered by any class as well, since they too can negate what the Medic negated (in other words, dealing the damage patched up by the Medic or ruining a push thanks to a Pyro for example). It still doesn't simplify the graph, but at least it includes every possible variants, since we compare the classes on a more abstract level, without skill levels needed to be considered (no matter what your skill level is, a Sniper will always be better at taking down classes that are farther away and to cripple the enemy team).
The TF2 Food Chain but Everytime Toofty says "counter" you take a shot.
The TF2 Food Chain but you get an alcohol-induced coma
The tf2 food chain but I’m going to the hospital
9:04, pyro heavy dynamic depends on if the pyro knows his movement and if he has the panic attack degreaser combo
Preety much every 1v1 gets changed if the people know their movement
I am a spy main, and i can say that engineers are not easy options, if they are not busy. They morely stay in their nest, means that they are more spy-aware. Also sometimes they cooparate with pyros.
5:00 That kinda reminded me of the "Good night girl, see ya tomorow" meme
Also a few seconds before he said "Raining down death"
For me, a class is overpowered when his only counter is himself(*coughs* sniper)
med is different. med is the only real heal class. tbh it counters everything with a team but alone yeah, he cant really do stuff except surfing
Sniper isn't just countered by himself. There's spy, as well as long range harassment damage from classes like pyro and soldier.
@@dubsy1026 well first of all RAZORBACK second of all if he has a good team he's a god. look at Invite 6s or prolander koth sniper is a god.
yeah but you need realy good aim with sniper to stop every single threat. also 6s are an entirely different meta.
@@amadis8892 to me razorback snipers are a joke, all it takes is a couple nice shots.
@@amadis8892 The razorback a counter? It's a slowdown, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to clap those cheeks with a revolver. Also a sticky jumping demo can eat those ass checks two hands. If you do a jump with the sticky jumper you can fly across the map.
I'd love to see a part 2 to this, including all the different sub-classes. Maybe you could do it for a 150k sub special or something. Or just keep it in your back pocket for when you need to make a video & don't know what to make it on.
I think pyro is a hard counter to demo knight because a decent pyrom won’t take any damage from one
4:39
This is so sad, can we get an F in the chat
You want me to start a chain or what well ok
F
@@pundex2984 F for fart in my nostril really fucking hard so I die
@@learnova1761 bruh lmao
f
the pyro just wants to enjoy the battlefield
*[Hear Charging scream at the distance]*
>Screen shakes
>Crit sound
You are ded, not big soup rice.
Demonight is a light counter to everything except Engie, Heavy and some experienced Pyros in my opinion.
I guess it depends on if it's pure demoknight or hybrid knight.
Ironically, soldiers and demomen generally have more movement options due to their ability to jump with explosions. They can typically (read as: not necessarily easily and very situationally) escape a demoknight if they're not empty on ammo - soldier especially, since he can pull off a rocket jump more quickly.
Demoknight is odd; he's an ambush class like pyro, but relies even more on being unexpected due to unreliable melee hitreg and his sheer lack of range or countering tools against hyper-mobile offensive/explosive opponents like soldier or demoman. One could argue that the explosion resistance on some shields gives him a slight upper hand, but with the lack of projectiles, he's way more vulnerable to zoning and becomes ultra-reliant on his charge to close the gap. He's like pyro on hard mode.
Then there's hybrid knight, which is more versatile and would add another paragraph to this already massive wall of text had I no self-restraint and more time. Then there's stuff like jumping on exploding pills to achieve an effect similar to sticky jumping, and AAAAAAAGHHH WHY IS THIS SO COMPLICATED
@@dominusempyreus2383 and then trimping becomes a thing.
I'd say that soldier and scout in the open can just run away and make it someone else's problem and if the demoknight has 5 heads a heavy is an easy kill as shield+crit
I definitely don't think the wheel is overly complicated; I think it's a nice way to look at it
I know im late but it probably depends on the demoknight heads if he has more than 3 heads and he can reach the scouts speed if he doesn’t have boost with baby face’s blaster
What makes Soldier deadly is not that he is super effective against every other class, rather that he has no major exploitable weakness.
get on a higher ground than the soldier
Engie has so many counters because the Sentry can rip a team apart if they aren't focused.
Not to mention the best in-battle healing, ammo replenishing and the best mobility tool. He's arguably the most powerful class, which is why he needs good counters and weaknesses.
Engies are pretty powerful with a well placed sentry, a great support with a good dispenser, and withe teles, anything is possible. Until a spy goes and does the sapper spam.
i think that, in a similar way that pyro has a small advantage against soldier, soldier has a small advantage against scout
I think for the iffy situational counters , you could use mini - counters , which are just too situational to always work out , but can work when they do
I've always loved your inforgraphics
TF2 food chain: exist
Pro players: I'm going to end this man whole career
* insert French laugh here *
If you factor in the stock syringe gun with medic you would have a good counter to scout in most cases. Their is even an achievement for kill a scout 500 with the DPS of a needle gun.
I think this is an interesting topic for discussion. Perhaps if you were ever thinking of doing a more comprehensive look at dynamics between classes, you could try interviewing players who main (and have much experience on) each class, because I think that would help to remove considering weapon loadouts even in the complex look. My thinking is that someone who plays so much of a class can see another class more generally, considering the wider scope of play outside a loadout.
Toofty: Make video about class counter
Spy main: Class counter?, never heard about that.
*screams while engulfed in flames*
heavy + medic counters everyone you say?
*tf2 spy would like to know your location*
*Ubercharge would like to destroy your explaination*
@@flux9122 *I would like to see you pop that Uber with a knife in your back*
-A big earner spy(yes I know its shit but i mean chainstab)
*fully charged headshot would like to know your location.*
the knight versus scout dillemma is probably based off of the map. with scout, you can easily escape a knight if there's plenty of space, but as a knight, if there's very little space, you can charge through and demolish a scout.
Instead of having semi transparent icons id have prefered to have just a different color, like red for a full counter and orange of yellow for a soft counter
Anyone its well done , great job on the video !
I think pyro should atleast soft counter demoknight with airblasts
I think heavy is good against all, but sniper and spy.
10:30 👌
Not really depends on who your playing against. Heavy can easily be taken down by a demo from mid range
@@blazer1820 I beg to differ, a heavy can easily maneuver around pills at mid range.
Obviously skill affects performance. Any class can take down any class as long as someone has the skill to do so.
I play heavy all the time, no class poses much of a threat other than spy's or snipers in my opinion/gameplay.
Spies and snipers are the biggest threat
A really good scout can be really annoying to deal with though.
@@putridmoldyman306 just gotta have good tracking ;)
If all else fails, Natasha.
In comp semi competent demo destroys heavy. By heavies actually become soft counters to spies.
Was lookin for dis
I think a good way of distinguishing hard and soft counters is by comparing them to counters and checks in competitive Pokemon. A counter is something that can switch in and get the kill, while a check can only do so when not having to switch in first. In TF2, a counter would therefore be a class, that can always reliably kill another one, wheras checks only have the upper hand when setting up an engagement on their own terms.