@@paulportman3754 Everything ending defenders say does nothing but make the story worse. Eren was a total fucking maniac worse than hitler? Ok, where was this foreshadowed in the story exactly? The cabin doesn’t count because they were fucking bastards and Eren wasn’t given a choice. Not to mention Eren was always fully capable of compassion and even struggled to kill Annie. He was always headstrong in his dream of achieving freedom but nowhere is it implied he’d exterminate millions of children to do it just because. Hell we also have the idea that Eren was never free and it wasn’t his choice. Ok. Does AOT actually grapple with the consequences of a deterministic universe in a satisfying way? Oh that’s right. No it doesn’t. This series was built on characters making important decisions and their free will to do so (no regrets etc). None of this is actually discussed by the characters. It’s still garbage writing.
@@r.k845 Definitely. Another argument that drives me up the wall is the one that Eren only ever cared about his friends and no one else, which they use the train scene as evidence for. They treat him saying that they are more important to him than anyone as him saying he doesn't give a damn about anything or anyone else. Of course he loves his friends. They're the people he loves and wants to protect the most. However, that doesn't mean they are the only ones he wants to protect. Saying that only dramatically reduces the importance of what he was trying to achieve. This argument is also undercut anyway by what you mentioned, being that Eren didn't have any real choice in the matter. Ultimately, the thing that I hate the most about the ending is what they did with Ymir and her whole love curse nonsense. They reduced the entire story and all of the characters within it into some weird play/therapy session for a ghost, where she has to see someone kill the love of her life in order to feel better about herself. WTF!? Not only is that incredibly ridiculous and messed up, but the story doesn't even acknowledge it as such. There's even a scene where Mikasa wishes Ymir to find peace, when she should absolutely despise her for essentially forcing her to kill the person she loves most in the world. It's moments like these where the characters don't behave like real people that demonstrate just how nonsensical the ending is.
The whole School Castes argument is entirely destroyed if you actually read School Castes. In ch.130, at the end of volume 32, after Eren is kidnapped by the cult of Ymir, he immediately regrets wanting to create a "threat to all of humanity". Their idea that Eren is a senseless psychopath is unfounded
Eren smiles, eats, drinks and plays with Ramzi's family. Forgives Reiner for killing his people and his mother. Makes friends with Falco and even spares Gabi who killed Sasha. Goes to the other side and lives with people. Says they are just like him. Loves his parents, feels bad for patriots, worries about liberio and even his brother Zeke. Never once mentions he wants volunteers punished. Works alongside Yelena too. Eren waits until the very last moment until war is declared by Tybur only then does he attack. Even then he regrets what he has done and constantly cries about it. Clownvaderzz: Eren hates everyone beyond the walls and wants them all dead because of Armins book. The fact is this clown and ending defenders have reduced Eren to a typical mass murder villain to try make sense of the story. They are so deluded and full of BS and retcons. They clearly unironically didn't understand the story
But they didn’t even claim that Eren is a senseless psychopath, your claim is unfounded.. They stated more than enough that Eren regrets his actions and feels for the people that he has killed. Volume 32 more so underlines their point. Eren is conflicted and regrets the bad things he’s wishing for, but it doesn’t change the fact that he wished for them in the first place.
@@prettyboyg1278 They are arguing that Eren's main motivation for the rumbling is his boredom. If a person committing genocide primarily out of boredom is not the definition of a senseless psychopath to you, I don't know what to tell you. If it is, then the original comment still stands and yours falls apart.
Invaderzzz video is just as contradictory as Eren’s character in 139. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. There is no fluid way to provide answers for what happened to a retcon. The story retconned itself. Eren retconned himself. Invaderzzz by default had to retcon himself to explain both the story and Eren. There’s no other way to make sense of it. Great video !
If Eren wanted to do the rumbling then why did he feel guilty for going along with that choice? Why did he even give these other alternatives a chance? Why did he threaten Hanji to give him another answer? If Eren really want to do it, he wouldn’t have entertained the other choices. Also if Eren is doing this because he’s bored, then wouldn’t he just be bored from killing? The moment Eren kills someone is out of self defense OR saving someone. His monster side didn’t come out unless he’s threatened or someone that’s vulnerable is threatened. He didn’t use it for shits and giggles. Eren being upset humans were outside the walls was because he realized what the walls meant. Ever since his childhood, the walls were supposed to be for “protection”. Now he’s learning that humans were able to live outside of them. So what was the point of them? Is it to protect us or restrict us? Lastly, Eren has stated before that he did the rumbling for freedom, to protect Paradis, and for his friends. So him to say he doesn’t know in the last chapter is asinine. Watching AOT and character’s, especially Eren, be destroyed is really sad. But to see defenders try to defend this shit and gaslight others to believe them or “you didn’t understand the story!” Or “you’re not a true fan!” makes my blood boil.
As an anime only reading this made me sad because I said literally in a post recently to see Eren die after living a life of such hardship and not accomplish anything is so sad
To that first question, idk if you were trying to cook something amazing, but it backfired badly. He wanted to do the rumbling but because he isn't a complete sociopath and has morals.
@@errwhattheflip … exactly. That’s my point. If Eren was a psychopath and planned to be one all along, he wouldn’t feel remorse or trying to find other alternatives.
Did Invaderzz say he was some psychopath? The idea of Eren being bored is a bit of a weird layer. A true one which is blatantly stated, but weird nonetheless. Eren's boredom is moreso due to his internal nature of wanting freedom, and specifically to fight for it. He's always been characterized as a fighter with a huge drive for action. Not much of a strategist and allat. His boredom is mostly stemmed from not being able to apply that desire to fight for his freedom, which obviously wouldn't apply to the rumbling. I don't think that's why Eren was so upset about humans outside the walls. Isayama corrects it by clarifying that it was due to the oppression by people. Eren was always aware of how the walls were restrictive of the freedom of others. That's why he wanted to reach the sea and join the survey corps. Eren saying he didn't know is juxtaposed by his father saying "Eren you are free", so obviously we know that it was for that, but Eren doesn't fully understand his own motives. Why did he want freedom? It isn't enough to just say "It's part of who he is" because that doesn't answer anything. Hence the "I don't know why" @@titanblade3706
Making your main characters most important trait be reviled in a gag series not apart of the main manga that most people won’t take seriously or read is the opposite of good writing.
I like how these Eds just totally forget that Paradis exists.. Not once in these videos do they mention how they were being genocided for decades that Eren actually cared about his mother and his home which was destroyed due to the outside world its always like it was cause he wanted it like the outside world didn't deserve what was coming.. Eren never cared about his parents or his homeland he just wanted his own freedom and lives of his friends which again he had no idea that they would actually achieve..Like Eren's biggest influence throughout the whole story was his mother and the effect her ideology had on him...Not once in this whole video did anyone talk about that...139 ruins "Bystander" which from a writing pov was my favourite chapter
Oh, how much i agree with defenders forgetting about Paradis entirely. They root for the oppressors. Like, did we watch/read the same story? They wanna save the world just because there are a few more innocent people. Where do they leave Paradis at? In the garbage. The island doesn't matter. The world is important. What did Armin sacrificed at all?! Nothing, and he gained everything. Pfft.
@@trancer4e4life So are you saying the ideal ending would have had Eren killing the entirety of humanity outside the walls? What do you mean Paradis was left in the garbage they had 2,000 years of peace before their destruction? (Okay the exact time isn't stated, and it seems to be a few decades longer in the anime than the manga.)
isayama and ending defenders want us to feel bad for ppl outside the walls so bad when they're the same ppl who put paradis eldians in an open air prison with limited knowledge, technology, freedom and food and sent titans massacring them there regularly. like sorry but paradis eldians will never be these bad ppl yall wanted them to be in s4. idgaf abt anyone outside the walls
"No! I don't want that! Odin debunking Invaderzz's crappy arguments. I want Invaderzz to be a respected ending defender in the fanbase, for ten years at least!"
@@D14MBK How is that ad hominem? Ad hominem is when you go after a person rather than the arguments they're making so how is calling Invaderzz's points crappy an ad hominem?
You'll find that a lot of ending defenders are compromised because they treat AOT like it's their personal religion. It's a sacred text with no flaws, protected against anyone who dare point out it's failings. It's also interesting how a lot of them become or pretend to be masters of literature to explain some of the most simple characterizations incorrectly. Also the OST in the background, I need that.
" a lot of them become or pretend to be masters of literature to explain some of the most simple characterizations incorrectly" EXACTLY! They needlessly obfuscate the concept of freedom, showing the lengths they will go to in order to protect their sacred and precious text lol
Shash syndrome? Wrong. It should be Invaderzz syndrome because Invaderzz did it first. SHASH was afterwards in Tatacaw, where he failed in regurgitating what Invaderzz said.
Ending defenders destroying eachothers arguments by accident haha. We don't need to argue against them. Just laugh and slap some sense in to their stupid fans. Trust me I fell for Invaderzz video when I was an ED luckily after reading the manga again I realised he was a clown and his own video turned me from an ED in to a logical person who could accept that his favourite fiction had become trash thanks to shipping and the dogshit fabdom and editors
Gotta say You, Saint, and Browns are the best at tearing ED arguments apart! And IMO Shash is a better ED than Invaderzz by miles. Also Miku and Marin are best waifus! Just add Yor Forger and you got my holy trinity!
You wanna know how determinism works in Attack on Titan? It's a shield from criticism of contrived, bullshit writing. If you call out something that doesn't make sense, ending defenders can go, "It's predetermined, fuck you!"
I know I’m late to the video, but I think this is a pretty good analogy for the ending. Imagine AOT was originally a beautiful landscape painting with a ton of wonderful detail and a warm atmosphere, constantly being worked on by the painter. People love and follow the progress on painting and the it’s clear the artist knows his craft. The painter flounders a bit but the overall image is still coming together well. One day, the painter decides he’s almost finished and decides to do a few final ‘touch-ups’. He distorts the atmosphere of the painting with darker, desaturated colors, and paints over all of the extremely detailed landscape with a dense fog which makes the whole thing blurry and covers up the detail that was once clearly visible. Half of the people who were following it question why the hell the painter decided to change the whole direction of the piece and cover up his beautiful detailed work with some ugly fog, while the other half defends it, stating how genius the painter was in creating the dark tone, and that the fog is actually awesome because it’s ‘realistic’ and adds to the tone. This is basically where the AOT fandom is. The defenders tend to fixate on 139 in a vacuum, trying to rationalize all of the random, confusing aspects of the ending through self-contained headcanon. Our side generally focuses more on the bigger picture. The problem that many defenders don’t realize is that 139 being confusing and sloppily written is the least of it’s problems. The biggest issue is that it just doesn’t fit with the established story. None of it’s plot twists were properly foreshadowed (name me a single person who predicted any of the Eren twists prior to 139) and they failed to add anything. In most cases, the twists overwrote prior, perfectly fine plot points and completely replaced them with inferior ones. The problem is not that Eren’s motivation is irredeemable and confusing. The problem is that his motivation USED to be understandable and even sympathetic, but got REPLACED by a confusing and Iess relatable one. Even if his motivation can make sense if you think about it hard enough, it’s inherently less understandable, less sympathetic, and thus, less in-depth than Eren’s previously established one. Plot twists, especially those at the end of a series need to reveal information and ADD to what’s already established. Almost all if not every single plot twist in 139 actively removes depth and nuance from the story, as most clearly shown with Eren, so they should have never been included. Defenders tend to overlook this issue however, viewing the series through the lense that this deeper, superior version of the story never existed and use 139 as a basis to say that we were always overthinking things. But considering damn near NOTHING in the story foreshadowed most of 139’s twists and a good chunk of foreshadowing seemed to be point towards plot points that never went anywhere, I’m confident in saying our analysis is accurate. We were going to get our work of art, and were robbed by a last-minute paint-over that needlessly tried to ‘course-correct’ art already going in a beautiful direction, sending it straight into the brick wall of mediocrity. Defenders might think that the work of art we sought after never existed, and that 139 was always the story. But as someone who followed the series for years before 139, I know that the AOT we ended with is not the same one we fell in love with. We’re going to stick by the series’ original vision to the end, even if we need to rely on fan-mangas like AOTNR to do it. Thank you for reading my geeky-ass essay about a manga, if you made it this far. Hope you enjoyed.
I watched a video that actually convinced me that this was Isayama's original ending. It seems like he put himself into the story as Eren where he had to make a bad ending.
Honestly goated comment, keep spittin'. And exactly, even if what Eren's characterization was retconned to isn't as interesting as what he was before imo, it could have totally worked and been satisfying had the story built up to it (Like Breaking Bad). But since that wasn't the story we were given all this time, Eren suddenly being that way sucks balls
It used to be that everybody was upset that Eren became the bad guy in season 4. And so here's what I don't get why are you all now saying that chapter 139 ruined Eren? Eren was going head-long first into the Rumbling before the final 2 episodes (I didn't read the manga). If Eren tried to destroy the world since the beginning of season 4, and it was only at the very end that we learn that Eren had always planned on being defeated after 80% of the world had died, thus bringing him closer to being seen as the hero we knew in the first three seasons, then why say that it was chapter 139 that ruined it?
@@castonyoung7514 There is quite a lot of content on RUclips explaining this. So I am not gonna even pretend like I can drop all the details on you here in this comment of why people hate the ending. If you care enough then you can find it. The ending that ending haters typically wanted was one where Eren finished the rumbling and became the ultimate bad guy.
When I first listen to this invaderzz guy i thought we was reading two different stories they just can't accept that 139 completely ruins eren character good video man i enjoy listening to your previous videos on eren character keep up the good work 👍
It used to be that everybody was upset that Eren became the bad guy in season 4. And so here's what I don't get why are you all now saying that chapter 139 ruined Eren? Eren was going head-long first into the Rumbling before the final 2 episodes (I didn't read the manga). If Eren tried to destroy the world since the beginning of season 4, and it was only at the very end that we learn that Eren had always planned on being defeated after 80% of the world had died, thus bringing him over 20% closer to being seen as the hero we knew in the first three seasons, then why say that it was chapter 139 that ruined it?
@@castonyoung7514 I was reading the manga at the time and what you have to realize is that is a gradual decay that takes place after the end of what you know as Season 3 Part 2. The problem is that those small imperfections added up and the story, in its limited time frame, was unable to resolve those elements of the story. Each mistake that diverted the series from its core, essential themes further damaged the narrative. And some of those mistakes couldn't easily be undone. Like the formation of the alliance: once that was established, there was no way to go back and undo it. And even if Isayama had tried to undo it, it would have only further muddled the story, bogging it down and wasting time. Chapter 137 was the straw that really broke the camel's from what I can see. However, other details like Levi's survival, the formation of the alliance, Mikasa refusing to get over her unhealthy association with Eren and the lack of insight into her ancestral history, Historia being revealed to carry the child of a random character instead of Eren, (not even a main character mind you; if this series was so well planned, why didn't Isayama introduce this random farmer guy earlier and try to develop a believable relationship with such a significant character as Historia?). I can go on, but the problem is that many of the later decisions revolve around more typical shonen tropes and plot armor that greatly exceeds the amount established as acceptable previously in the series. That's why many call it Marvel-tier, Disney-tier, Deus-ex Machina, etc. Also, to be fair, people were only just getting used to this change of character after the time skip. People naturally don't like change, but Isayama did a great job of selling Eren's new character. After all, it fit really well with not only Eren's character development, but with the core themes of the series that had become more prominent in season 3.
Ahhh yes. Another day, another AoT ED defenders trying so die-hard to play mental gymnastics to convince us that the ending and the steps that led up to it were objectively good. I should do a video of my own expressing my own thoughts about this guy's videos and how hilariously contradictory they are. At least he ain't Shash, tho.
@@Odin69 Sages Rain legit made a video criticising the ending and "hating" on it. It didn't get many views so he decided to make a new one supporting the ending and well he got slightly more views. This just shows how disingenuous these guys are
Ending lover here, enjoyed this video. I loved the way you calmly and rationally took apart Invaderzz's arguments. As I found his arguments to be a stretch. I don't know if I have Sash Syndrome or not. Eren is the protagonist and I'm glad we agree on that. His actions were the driving force of the story and remained the center of the story for a majority of it. The only time where he wasn't the protagonist was during Liberio. Where the entire point was to see the other side. It's sad to really come to grips with the ending being terrible. I just want to continue liking in despite it's flaws as when I read the ending. I felt satisfied. But with these arguments, I don't know if I should like it or not.
I get it man, lately I've been rewatching some Amazing moments from this series, Eren activating the coordinates, Eren saving Armin before getting eating, Historia betraying her father, Levi vs Kenny, the collosal and armor identity, Armin's sacrifice, Erwin's charge, Jean becoming a leader, the Nutcracker titan, Eren and Reiner meeting in marley, such great moments. I wish Aot landed the ending because I just find this series so good, easy 9/10 for me. But then the last 15% happen... I don't criticise it because I want to see it fail, but because I absolutely loved this serie. What could have been...
Doing the rumbling because of boredom is much more of a Kenny thing if he got the power and quickly realized it didn't make him any more compassionate.
The funniest thing was the anime basically codified invaderzz video into the canon and proved it was the correct interpretation, and people are still malding over him lol
yeah almost as if Mappa changed the ending to fit Invaderzz garbage interpretation, the fact that Eren & Armin's Convo was changed refutes Invaderzz's claim
I'm planning on writing my own story. I don't know how to write, and I failed English 4 times before dropping out of highschool. But, it should be pretty easy. I'm just going to make my characters all perfect predictors. That way, everything makes sense
yams really ruined eren so the marleyans and other ppl outside the walls would come across as victims, even though they never were. even the eldians outside the walls were objectively less in the right abt what they did than paradis eldians. paradis eldians didnt kill kids until s4 and thought that titans were .. titans. not human beings. but eldians in marley KNEW the entirety of eldian history and still went ahead to massacre paradis eldians and even mock their deaths (annie) all for some status in marley - the country that oppressed them in the first place aka nazi germany. like WHAT??? how did a story abt oppression turn into sth where our main guy is now suddenly in the wrong and we're forced to believe nazi germany aka marley and its inhabitants and the rest of the world deserve more empathy than the oppressed ppl aka paradis eldians???? yams didnt only ruin eren tho. he also ruined every other character from inside the walls bc they all suddenly started acting inconsistent (them completely forgiving annie for example) and becoming pacifists ???? also why tf was it AGAIN only paradis eldians dying and killing each other in s4 while the oppressor and self hating eldians from outside the walls got away with everything and didnt pay any price?????? fuckass reiner and annie got more redemption and a happy ending than eren. like WHAT. this is why i could have been ok with eren becoming a villain in the end and his friends stopping it HOWEVER that should not have been an excuse to portray the eldian cause as an apolitical "violence always bad" thing. eren becoming a villain doesnt mean paradis eldians were wrong all along 😂😂 it also doesnt prove the world outside the walls right.
I just realized something. Rewatching this If Eren gained an ability that could make him see time all at once, He should be able to know what is the organic way that he’s going to lose. He should be able to see every moment, to the smallest interstices of time. If he could see through time and it exists all at once, he should be able to see what the ones who are going to stop going to say, think & do, since their all Eldians and could read their memories in the future and past like Zeke did with Grisha’s memories & he’s not even able to use the full power of the founder. If that’s the case, then for what reason does he need to change his entire plan to lead to that future? His involvement & interruptions shouldn’t be needed.
I don't know if you know this or mention this in your vid (just started watching) but back when 139 was released invaderzz hated it and was supporter of anr + historia importance etc etc. If you look up his old comments on reddit you'll find him hating on ending
AoT Trash Ending!!! There was no need to start the rumbling and genocide. The author could have changed the story and saved Eren’s character. To show Ymir Mikasa’s love for Eren, he killed 80% of the population of different parts of the world. Those people might not even know about Eldians. After plotting that story, it was the only option left to kill Eren. The author should have changed the story before the rumbling.
Odin, have you seen Invaderzz latest video on " The Rumbling is indefensible". Damn that video got ratioed by 50%. 😂 It's really hypocritical for him to say do not defend the Rumbling, yet defend what happened in the manga by saying it's circumstances driven. 🍌
The whole point of Eren was a mild mannered ordinary fellow who was in a tyrannical world who had a no other choice but violence if He was gonna be free even death knocked on His door If He wasn't gonna use violence and Dies Caste is more like a What If? Marvel equivalent to AOT
Invaderzz's time travel shenanigans just make me so mad lol. So Grisha desperately doesn't want Eren to get the titan. But he makes the decision to do it because he sees a future where he does. But theoretically, in this universe, if grisha still didn't want to do it after seeing the future, he could have just not done it? So basically, grisha wrongly believes he has only one choice, despite the fact that any human seeing a bad VISION of the future would probably attempt to change it. Grisha even attempted to change it by yelling at zeke. It makes no sense to use this as a character motivation. It's basically just it happened because Grisha is an idiot. But I don't even think they believe this. They genuinely believe it'd be impossible for grisha or anyone to change what they're doing given that they see the future (duh because it's the future). But that future is something he doesn't want. So there is literally zero reason why it would ever happen other than the fact that he sees it in the future. So, even though it doesn't make sense, it's basically "the plot happened this way because fate, because god wrote it this way. That's just life". That's not good storytelling. They've basically written a way to excuse the writing of any character who has seen the future. You need to be on extreme copium to buy this argument, but honestly I understand why people would believe it. I wonder how many ending defenders actually believe in this. Because invaderzz's video explaining this (the most popular one) is pretty big and respected in the aot community among ending defenders. But I rarely actually see anyone bring this up on Twitter or Reddit. The determinism argument is so bad, I feel like even a lot of ending defenders would have a hard time buying it.
Few problems and I haven't even fully watched past the first 5 minutes. You claimed that Eren did the rumbling out of necessity because his enemies wanted to destroy them, but Eren himself claimed that he doesn't actually have any enemies; that it's just people, and even before the ending we know Eren already knew that what he was doing wasn't just killing enemies but killing human beings, dreams, etc. The reason Eren holds his "I'll keep moving forward until my enemies are destroyed" is because it's a self-deluding statement, going back to his inner nature from childhood. As he's said before, Eren has always had an intrinsic desire to be free, even before he knew of the concept and was willing to do anything for it, even take away the freedoms (lives) of others who threaten his. Eren pretty much creates this childish persona, based on those ideals, to make his life easier so that he can see the other side as just enemies and not truly human beings. But we've seen this persona break. This is mainly in his breakdown with that refugee kid where he literally states that he did it, not to protect Paradis or his friends (albeit that was a motive of his), but because he wanted to wipe everything out after realizing how the outside world was. That doesn't sound like he was forced to by the world. Eren was forced, but only by his internal nature. That inner part of himself that always drove him forward regardless of what he believed
"If someone wants to take away my freedom, I won't hesitate to take away theirs", he verbatim states that he won't bother anyone UNLESS they try kill him. What about that statement implies that he would kill/rumble the world bc he just wanted to?
@@tinytitan8807 Because he said it like twice? Eren isn’t just taking freedom away. He literally cannot live without violence and combat. It’s why he immediately looks at Armin’s book and sees the titan’s oppression instead of just the wonder of the seas. There’s a reason why he has his “if we can’t fight we can’t win” thing
@@errwhattheflip by that logic if there weren't ANY walls no Titans and if world was peaceful he'd want to take away someone's freedom bc his "violent nature" which doesn't make sense cuz it goes against his "if someone takes away my freedom I won't hesitate to take away theirs" IE if someone PROVOKES me I won't sit lightly and take it Idk how you took that sentence and applied it to, "he would kill ppl bc his violent" bc guess what that's how most irl ppl are bc all he means is just don't try provoke with him and he won't do anything to you. Eren is a reactionary person bc prepare yourself this may shock you but Eren is only violent out of necessity.
Eren really doesn’t care or doesn’t want freedom his primary goal is to fight for it. And that’s why he joined the scouts, that’s why he went to marlya n thats why he did the rumbling.
The ending of AOT is so well written that nobody knows what the hell was going on and even people who like the ending have to resort to philosophical arguments as speculation
Yeah but that is "fate" in the end: When you know the end you can not change it because everything you do will lead to it. With the little tiny fact: You can kill every asshole including yourself that you saw in that future.. And there is again a paradox (create other timeline other univers or "kill" the fate and create an new one) that is the probleme you can't say: Thats the "rule" in my "univers" for "Timetravel" because: Every rule got a paradox or a million....
Great video! The "Ending Defenders vs Ending Defenders" segment is my favorite. It's probably one of the best evidences that the ending is poorly written. Also Odin, I want to suggest watching Mushoku Tensei. Not because it has anything to do with AoT, it just that I think someone who is as analytical and perceptive as you would enjoy it and I hope to see you make a video about it someday. The first few episode have some controversial scenes but it only last up to episode 8 in the anime, other than that the show is amazing through and through. One of my friend (who watch more anime / manga than I do and, more importantly, is also an AoT ending hater 😂 ) have just finished reading the LN and he said that it blew his mind how every details and characters, even minor characters have an important role to play in the story. I specifically told him not to spoil me about the ending, but from watching ss1 and hearing about some spoilers, it has already became my favorite shows ever. Don't read the manga tho, since the anime is adapted from the LN and everyone in the community agreed that the manga suck compare to the anime and LN of Mushoku Tensei.
1. Eighty Six 2. Odd Taxi 3. MT 86 was the clear number 1 for me. Odd Taxi and MT are very close, but to me these 3 were the definitive best anime last year
@@Odin69 Ahhh ok, I see. Haven't watch the 86 nor odd taxi yet, but I remember many people enjoyed 86 and Gigguk ranked odd taxi as his top 3 for anime 2021 (top 1 being Mushoku Tensei and the only reason why Odd Taxi got top 3 is because Gigguk doesn't know about AoT ending so he put AoT at #2) . My taste in anime is quite similar to Gigguk and he ranked 86 as his top 9 so personally speaking I probably would not enjoy it as much as you did (it'll probably be my top 3 last year if I did watch it) but I'm interested in seeing your thoughts so yeah I'll go watch that video of yours ^^
Fr, dude looks like a clown now for calling ending interpreters and defenders as “Pseudo-intellectuals”. Now the Anime has confirmed the defenders theories and interpretations it’ll be interesting to see how they move the goal post
@@JojoSmacks No, what it proves is that Invaderzz original interpretation was correct which is clearly shown in the anime. You can’t just go calling a retcon now because your interpretation was incorrect. You’re graspy at straws at this point.
Honestly the ending would've been fine if Armin is the one killing Eren, not Mikasa. It would at least conclude the theme of "necessary evil" when the ultimate pacifist of the story is pushed to kill his best friend for the peace he sought for. It would still be not great ending because of other things you've explained in these videos, but it can still be not pro-genocide AND shows that Armin has grown some balls that he would use violent measures when absolutely necessary, thus his talk-no-jutsu journey in the epilogue feels like have some bite to it. Heck, Ishi can even still have a bit of that martyr eren moment and having the rumbling near complete when he does like Armin being quite late, time move faster in real world when they talk or something, thus still guarantee the safety of paradiso. Again, not gonna be great ending, but it wouldn't be as trash. All just with the cheap, cheap price of not doing this ending to Mikasa plotline (ideally this plotline's ending would just be Mikasa letting go of her obsession/false image of Eren and moving on, but nobody would mind even if it's unsolved forever)
Comparing Light Yagami and Walter White to Eren is a major flaw a lot of people tend to make. It highlights the thinking flaw and why they don’t like how Eren ended up. In their minds he’s still the main character and protagonist of the story, so they want to fully understand his motives, when he’s NOT! The difference is we follow Walters and Lights POV throughout the entire story, till the very end, even when they become evil. That’s not what happened with Eren! After Historias hand kiss, we completely lose sight of Erens POV. He’s not leading us through the story anymore and the main character position got split amongst the Marley / Paradies characters. In short, Eren actually became THE antagonist of the story, while Walter and light remained main characters. So comparing their character arcs to Eren doesn’t make any sense, cause we purposefully lose sight of Erens motivations and we are not supposed to fully understand and agree with his decisions. He’s literally the antagonist, not only becoming bad.
A lack of POV doesn’t change the position of a MC/Protagonist. That’s like saying Sasuke became the MC of Naruto when he fought killer Bee because we’re no longer being lead through the story with Naruto in the specific part of the story. An Arc/event centering around a certain individual more than the protagonist doesn’t change protagonist or antagonist unless the author specifically states that’s the case & writes it. (Edited)
@@Kid_Kaizu Bad comparison because Naruto is the MC of the story, not Sasuke, so I never said anything close to this. That comparison would only make sense If Naruto was the one who left the village in later arcs, with us losing his POV for major parts of the story, while we continue it from the remaining Team 7s view. However, we never lost sight of Narutos goals and motivations, while Erens goals and motivations got hidden from us purposefully after reaching the sea. The MC Disposition of AoT and the POV got literally turned on it’s head since the Marley Arc. That’s when Isayama decided to draw parallels between the new and old characters, in relation to prior events happening. The attack on Marley mimics the first attack from chapter one for reasons, with the main difference being that Eren is the antagonist this time around.
I finally watched the final season of AOT. And I'm cool with Eren becoming a villian and his friends having to take him out. However the way the story played out just stinks of bad writing. It was needlessly convoluted and had too many contradictions to be a satisfying conclusion. I will disagree on one of your points though. Eren did indeed become the antagonist of the story. The reason being because he stopped being a POV character and became the foil for the rest of the POV characters to be stopped. After he starts the rumbling, we only really see Eren from the point of view of other characters.
l am Japanese, what is this? In Japan, fans don't redraw a manga just because they didn't like the last episode. Nor do other fans say things like "this is better than the original work". Because Japanese people always respect the author. I have never seen this kind of behavior in the history of Japanese manga.
It makes me very sad. This is extremely disrespectful to Isayama-sensei. AOTNR is not at all known or talked about in Japan. Also, the majority has accepted the last episode.
I was disappointed to be reminded of the difference in ethnicity.
Its already considered one of the best animes. Just because you can't cope about the ending doesn't mean people won't talk about it. Aot already is popular and won a lot of rewards.
Just take it as a fanfiction then, exept for AoT, ppl never redrew a manga story, and bc Japan doesn't do it doesn't mean others can't, you aren't special
@@Odin69 But hey, you managed to destroy not one but two big Ending Defenders. 😂 If on Twitter space, those two are big. There's a few more like Akshit, Vincent, Criticold (this dude is more pretentious than Shash), Qoenntrell that are big although they're at max 5k followers. 😂
this entire video is you taking a sentence or two out of context and blowing it out of proportion. you act like a character’s motivations can’t change or even conflict at different points in a story. sorry attack on titan wasn’t “eren finally gets powerful enough for revenge and destroys his enemies 😈” like damn bro that would’ve been some groundbreaking writing.
@@thr0ne_ you said, " entire video is you taking a sentence or two out of context and blowing it out of proportion" Context is established he says what happens prior then let's Invaders talk at no point is context taken out bc the scene being shown should tell you context hence why I say you probably didn't watch AOT bc you SHOULD know the context of the scenes both Invaderz and Odin are talking of and he several times uses sources from both Invaderzz video AND the manga/anime as proof so again I came to the conclusion you neither watched the video nor the anime.
This video actually raised my opinion on Attack on Titan funnily enough, I was confused by a few points in the ending and looking it up online just left me even more confused and soured my opinion of the ending. Now I see its just people jumping through hoops to defend issues that ended up having theories on the show that made it worse than it actually was. Now I see its just an okay but flawed ending instead of a giant confusing mess that ruins the whole show
Peak is peak . I was expecting a challenging way to Debunk Invaders but, this wasn't it. Bro literally admitted it was subjective an you still didn't move past it.
All these videos saying invaderz was wrong legit in the anime eren himself says” there was more to it, i hated the world outside the walls and wanted to erase it..” doesnt that sentence alone when talking to ramzi say invaderz is right in that saving eldia wasnt his only motivation? It was also because he WANTED TO DO IT
@@JinxisHere758 because hes childish and it wasnt the dream he dreamt of his entire life that him and armin had.. once he found out it was the opposite of what he thought he wanted to “erase it all away” . Atleast thats what i took from watching the show. Manga might give more in dept.
@@rickyclark9754 no. There is no other reason lol. Protecting the island of paradis from being destroyed is the sole reason that eren enacts the rumbling. And that can be backed up via the source material, more than enough breadcrumbs that lead directly to that conclusion. The way that invaderzz describes eren’s motivations you’d think he was talkin about the columbine shooters or some shit. And it’s completely baseless. He arrived at his conclusion by taking unnecessary liberties in his interpretation of the source material.
You should do some research on determinism. You might find in fact that you dont have free will. Does that make your entire story of your life meaningless, perhaps.
An ending hater makes a video saying that an ending lover doesn't understand the story. And ofc surprise surprise he reads AoT No Requiem. And unironically uses the word "wifu" and fetishises anime girls over real women. Your vibe is already off-putting as is. Makes it real difficult to finish the video full of wrong aot takes that have been debunked by the anime ending.
Just like we say in french you whippin everything. What does hating Aot ending has to do with calling anime girls wifu? As a woman that didn't like Aot I don't call girls wifu, and honnestly you're embarassing, not even answering his points, just calling him wrong bc...he didn't like the ending? And stop with those stupid comparaisons
@@daeith1233 calling anime girls wifus just adds to the overall cringe. And as for just saying he's wrong, that's cause he is. He made all the point that the ending itself debunked. What's the point of pointing out all the ways he's wrong. I didn't even bother finishing the video that's made in bad faith anyway.
@@maddie_97 the ending works bc it justify itself, but with totally different reasons that the philosophy the anime gave us so far, that's why he's debunking it. Tbh it's not hard, you're an AoT fan and you watched 4 seasons, you saw the evolution of story, yet the ending seems to have taken a total different path from that evolution, importants characters being sided, after being showed as predominant to the story, the contrary happening, some characters not getting proper conclusion, or a conclusion that contradict the one they gave you so far. My biggest issue is with love being the center of the resolution. I remember when I watched AoT finale being like "Oh I didn't remember Eren's feelings for Mikasa being this strong, or Eren and Mikasa's relationship being so revelant to the story to the point that it hinted the ending, guess I'll rewatch it from a shipper pov to understand it better" (I read the ending 3 years ago and for some reasons stopped being obsessed with aot after that) and...it didn't work. You barely remember Eren's so strong love feelings for Mikasa, what's worse is that instead of making me a total EM shipper, I rediscovered characters I didn't know I would have like so much years ago, like my fav used to be Mikasa and now it's Levi Erwin Hange for example. Saw how ending defender keep using the same narrativ "it's Eren story narrated by Armin and from Mikasa's pov" of saying things to make Mikasa look like the ULTIMATE main character, but watching AoT (or reading it) you barely remember Mikasa being a main, like yeah she's always there but you barely got her thoughts after her peak Trost arc, she's basically a watcher, if we didn't show her you could easily forget abt her presence. So a character being so narratively irrevelant suddently being the key a story she didn't even look involved in is a pretty debunkable thing
@@daeith1233 to clear the record, I'm not saying that aot had the perfect ending, I actually agree with some of the points you were making (important characters like Historia sidelined), I'm just saying Odin's criticism of invaderzz points is so off base I can't even begin to say it. Invaderzz hit the nail on the head with the way he interpreted what Isayama was going for with Eren's character. It sounded like Odin's problem was with invaderzz's supposed misinterpretation of aot, while his actual problem should have been with the route that Isayama had taken with his story. Invaderzz was damn near perfect with bringing out the author's intent. Odin just didn't like the intent itself (which is ok, btw, I'm not saying it's not).
@@daeith1233 as for Mikasa'a importance to the story, well she's actually one of the 3 main protagonists, so ofc her role in the finale and in Eren's character arc is important. You can argue Isayama didn't portray Eren's mutual feelings for Mikasa very clearly but I'd say it's a culture thing. Western expressions of love are more explicit than Eastern ones. Plus you have to take into account Eren and Mikasa'a age at the time. Eren very much took Mikasa for granted and was even jealous of her at the time but as he matured he expressed his appreciation of her that eventually grew into love with him reaching young adulthood. So it makes sense that this whole Eren loves Mikasa narrative didn't start till after the time skip.
I disagree heavily with this video, and found almost all of the argumentation very weak. I'll try to break it down in this comment chronologically. TL:DR at the bottom. Eren's Nature: This entire section is built on a large misunderstanding of Invaderzz's point, and made the entire section one gigantic strawman. Odin says Invaderzz supposedly claimed Eren is a "psychopath who would destroy the world out of boredom of not having to fight for freedom", and asks why Ending defenders think this is good character writing. But the point was not that. At all. Invaderzz used School Castes as an example to explore Eren's nature. About his yearning to fight for freedom at all costs. And the insane things he would be willing to do to achieve said freedom. About his deep wishes to be able to fight for freedom despite having it. It arguably makes Eren a better character. Not because it makes him seem psychopathic, but because it makes sense for his morals to do something as inexcusable as the Rumbling. Armin would never do it in Eren's shoes, nor Levi, nor Erwin, not ANYONE. But for Eren it's justified- due to both his morals and his nature. That isn't to say Eren DOESN'T have personal reasons to do the Rumbling. He justifies it believably, and his goal is genuine amd still valid. The point was that it's in his nature to resort to the Rumbling, no matter how unnecessary it really was. Determinism: First, let me say this: I agree that Invaderzz and Isayama could have expanded upon this concept better. But I found Odin's argumentation in this video to be non-functional. Determinism is NOT inherently tied to fate or destiny, as Odin heavily implies here. Determinism means that a set future is inherently based on a chain of events and decisions in the past and present. Whether it is set in stone or not is irrelevant in this context. PRE-DETERMINISM on the other hand is more closely tied to fate, Because that means that the past present and future is determined by something, whether it is destiny, god or a person. Now, in a deterministic world without perfect predictors, the world would seem just like ours. Choices in the past will affect the future, and "free will" is just a result of us making choices. A deterministic world can only be felt WHEN perfect predictors appear, who can confirm that the future is set in stone. Otherwise, determinism is a philosophy, and only a philosophy. Since AoT has perfect predictors (Attack Titan shifters), they confirm that fate is set in stone, because they can see memories of the future that are unavoidable. This is where the Newcomb's Paradox comes in. When a perfect predictor sees the future, and makes decisions based on that vision, they cannot know whether the future happens inherently, or happens BECAUSE they saw it in the first place. Odin somehow claims this is contradictive, when this concept is deeply tied into determinism. If a vision of the future comes true no matter what, it means that world is deterministic, but whether the future was unavoidable or not is impossible. Since perfect predictors are only predictors, not governors of causality. But this is by no means it's a convenient writing tool, as Odin claimed. It's just worldbuilding and time travel mechanics. Grisha giving the titan to Eren is not "because determinism". It's moreso that "determinism dictates that a predetermined outcome will be based on people's choices, and it cannot be changed". So why Grisha gave Eren the titan is still up to inference, and not inherently sweeped under the rug by Isayama. The only main takeaway is that since we as readers KNOW the future, there must have been a detail in the plot that led Grisha to give Eren the titan. And it doesn't have to be "fate". And in Eren's case (about knowing the Rumbling will happen), Eren didn't do the Rumbling BECAUSE he saw it. Eren still did it of his own free will. Eren still had his own personal reasons for wanting to do it. The logic is that through Eren's free will, he WOULD do the Rumbling, even if he didn't know the future. It's just that in a deterministic world with perfect predictors, Eren seeing the future MIGHT have caused a chain of events that made the future happen. But we don't know; because of determinism. In conclusion, there is no contradiction in the determinism theory. Neither is it something inherently tied to fate. We only know that the timeline of AoT is set in stone (or else we'd see multiple timelines and such), and certain characters are potentially affected by future visions. Whether they are or aren't is up to interpretation. Eren's contradictory actions: The point about when Eren actually saw the full future and why he was still motivated to destroy the world despite knowing he'll lose made me stumble for a second. But there's a defence to be made here. 1: Despite Eren being in a state of "omnipotence" and sees the entire timeline in a jumbled mess, doesn't necessarily mean he can't be himself at the same time. The panel where he says "I'll destroy every one of my enemies" when The Rumbling arrives in Marley goes to show that Eren DOES still want to destroy the world. But everything that has happened in all of history can still be outside of his control, like making Dina eat his mom or letting the Alliance stop him. These are not contradictive. 2: It's fair to assume Eren obtained the full vision of the future when the Fouding Titan was activated. That's how the FT works. But as for Armin saying he obtained them when he kissed Historia's hand- keep in mind those are Armin's words. We don't know how much Eren is disclosing or how wrong Armin is. Even if there is bo clear answer here, it is still a bad faith interpretation to think there is only one real answer here. 3: Eren could want to destroy the world AND let himself be defeated at the same time. Eren DOES want to continue the Rumbling, or else he would've just stopped it. But it is also a valid interpretation that he DIDN'T want to stop his friends from defeating him. He himself would not want to dispose of them, and there might still be a part of him that wants to grant Paradis its redemption. In conclusion: Yes, more work could have been done here. But all Odin has presented is the most negative interpretations possible, without being open to the fact there could be other interpretations. Ending defenders vs ending defenders: I found this argument extremely strange, and honestly disingenuous. As I stated earlier, AoT is a series that can have many different meanings extrapolated from. It's no wonder "Ending defenders" can have many different ideas about the series. That is a testament to how complex and rich AoT is as a series. As for ending haters: No. They do not have the same ideas about the ending. Try to imagine why there are MULTIPLE alternate fan endings to the series. They have different ideas too. Claiming that one side has contradictory ideas while the other hasn't is arrogant, sorry. And as Odin said in the beginning, that ending defenders have "Shash syndrome" where they think their fav series has no flaws is ridiculous, since I could reflect that argument towards haters as well: that they want so desperately to believe the ending is trash, that they deny any claim in defense being made. My point being: Engage in discussion. Use good argumentation. Regardless of what side you're on. Fate in storytelling: First of all: AoT is not about fate or destiny. I feel like I and Invaderzz have made that very clear. As for stories in general: A story which is tied to the theme of fate/destiny is not inherently better when it's extra character driven or have characters defy fate. This mindset does the concept injustice. Especially when Odin says that stories that are heavily tied to fate are only worthy by their ending and not their beginning and middle. Sure, JoJo and Berserk do these concepts well with how they do it, no matter how insignificant "fate" is in those stories. But let me recommend the Witcher series, which has most of its themes and worldbuilding heavily tied to fate (not so much characters or plot). The Witcher is not a series where you can just skip to the last book. You will fail to do the series justice. Final notes: Odin, you were good at showing extensive clips from Invaderzz's video to make your points. But your argumentation against them lacked the same amount of evidence that Invaderzz had. You continuously emitted statements and clarifications he made that substantiated his points, without using much evidence of your own. Most of your points consisted of you misunderstanding Invaderzz's approach or taking him out of context, and rambled on after completely missing the point. And your mindset of belittling "ending defenders" to steelmanning your points and making your position look undeniably stronger is borderline hilarious after evaluating the results. And you are defending 139 by using evidence from that chapter against defenders? From what I saw in this video, you did a hilariously poor job of it. And if this a valid recommendation, please speak slower. It's hard to understand you sometimes. TL:DR: Odin continuously interprets evidence from the series in bad faith, misunderstands Invaderzz's points, takes him out of context or omits information. He uses arguments that are either faulty or lacking substance, which makes the video fall apart. In addition, he makes his position of "ending hater" stronger by belittling ending defenders, which makes it funnier when he fails at it completely.
@@hankkingofmischief4372 ending haters get triggered by invaderzz video for some reason. And whenever they try to respond they usually make strawmans. Watch saintitchiefs response to invaderzz lol
You don't seem to understand determinism, or at least don't explain it in a way that shows you understand it. The reason free will is questioned in a deterministic view of the world is that it functions on the notion that things are just meant to happen a certain way, including human choices. You seem to think that free will has anything to do with determinism or denying it but I think it's irrelevant. It's deterministic because Eren had prior knowledge of the future and chose to not try to subvert what he saw, he even participated in ensuring it happened exactly as it was supposed to. In a sense his free will to ensure what he saw led to exactly what he saw, hence determinism. He essentially guaranteed the future happening the only way it was supposed to which is why it's terrible writing. If isayama had given Eren conflicting visions and his choices led to the rumbling then that would've made it not deterministic and less shitty.
Man really reduced eren to a generic 80s cartoon villian
Eren “Michael Myers” Yeager
Another issue with his argument. Even if what he says is true, it degenerates the character into something less complex than what he was.
@@r.k845 Exactly! Even if you could make this characterization make sense, it would still be a terrible writing decision.
@@paulportman3754 Everything ending defenders say does nothing but make the story worse.
Eren was a total fucking maniac worse than hitler?
Ok, where was this foreshadowed in the story exactly? The cabin doesn’t count because they were fucking bastards and Eren wasn’t given a choice. Not to mention Eren was always fully capable of compassion and even struggled to kill Annie. He was always headstrong in his dream of achieving freedom but nowhere is it implied he’d exterminate millions of children to do it just because.
Hell we also have the idea that Eren was never free and it wasn’t his choice. Ok. Does AOT actually grapple with the consequences of a deterministic universe in a satisfying way? Oh that’s right. No it doesn’t. This series was built on characters making important decisions and their free will to do so (no regrets etc). None of this is actually discussed by the characters. It’s still garbage writing.
@@r.k845 Definitely. Another argument that drives me up the wall is the one that Eren only ever cared about his friends and no one else, which they use the train scene as evidence for. They treat him saying that they are more important to him than anyone as him saying he doesn't give a damn about anything or anyone else. Of course he loves his friends. They're the people he loves and wants to protect the most. However, that doesn't mean they are the only ones he wants to protect. Saying that only dramatically reduces the importance of what he was trying to achieve. This argument is also undercut anyway by what you mentioned, being that Eren didn't have any real choice in the matter.
Ultimately, the thing that I hate the most about the ending is what they did with Ymir and her whole love curse nonsense. They reduced the entire story and all of the characters within it into some weird play/therapy session for a ghost, where she has to see someone kill the love of her life in order to feel better about herself. WTF!? Not only is that incredibly ridiculous and messed up, but the story doesn't even acknowledge it as such. There's even a scene where Mikasa wishes Ymir to find peace, when she should absolutely despise her for essentially forcing her to kill the person she loves most in the world. It's moments like these where the characters don't behave like real people that demonstrate just how nonsensical the ending is.
The thumbnail LMAOOO
"Invaderzz can (not) read"😭😭
The whole School Castes argument is entirely destroyed if you actually read School Castes. In ch.130, at the end of volume 32, after Eren is kidnapped by the cult of Ymir, he immediately regrets wanting to create a "threat to all of humanity". Their idea that Eren is a senseless psychopath is unfounded
But that would go against my argument, so I will ignore it 🙂 AoT is a story about Mikasa, from Eren's perspective, told by Armin 😍
@@gogeta_lp i feel an immense urge to hit my head in the wall every time i see this quote now, thanks invaderzz, what a men you are...
Eren smiles, eats, drinks and plays with Ramzi's family. Forgives Reiner for killing his people and his mother. Makes friends with Falco and even spares Gabi who killed Sasha. Goes to the other side and lives with people. Says they are just like him. Loves his parents, feels bad for patriots, worries about liberio and even his brother Zeke. Never once mentions he wants volunteers punished. Works alongside Yelena too.
Eren waits until the very last moment until war is declared by Tybur only then does he attack. Even then he regrets what he has done and constantly cries about it.
Clownvaderzz: Eren hates everyone beyond the walls and wants them all dead because of Armins book.
The fact is this clown and ending defenders have reduced Eren to a typical mass murder villain to try make sense of the story. They are so deluded and full of BS and retcons. They clearly unironically didn't understand the story
But they didn’t even claim that Eren is a senseless psychopath, your claim is unfounded.. They stated more than enough that Eren regrets his actions and feels for the people that he has killed.
Volume 32 more so underlines their point. Eren is conflicted and regrets the bad things he’s wishing for, but it doesn’t change the fact that he wished for them in the first place.
@@prettyboyg1278 They are arguing that Eren's main motivation for the rumbling is his boredom. If a person committing genocide primarily out of boredom is not the definition of a senseless psychopath to you, I don't know what to tell you. If it is, then the original comment still stands and yours falls apart.
Invaderzzz video is just as contradictory as Eren’s character in 139. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. There is no fluid way to provide answers for what happened to a retcon. The story retconned itself. Eren retconned himself. Invaderzzz by default had to retcon himself to explain both the story and Eren. There’s no other way to make sense of it. Great video !
If Eren wanted to do the rumbling then why did he feel guilty for going along with that choice? Why did he even give these other alternatives a chance? Why did he threaten Hanji to give him another answer? If Eren really want to do it, he wouldn’t have entertained the other choices.
Also if Eren is doing this because he’s bored, then wouldn’t he just be bored from killing? The moment Eren kills someone is out of self defense OR saving someone. His monster side didn’t come out unless he’s threatened or someone that’s vulnerable is threatened. He didn’t use it for shits and giggles.
Eren being upset humans were outside the walls was because he realized what the walls meant. Ever since his childhood, the walls were supposed to be for “protection”. Now he’s learning that humans were able to live outside of them. So what was the point of them? Is it to protect us or restrict us?
Lastly, Eren has stated before that he did the rumbling for freedom, to protect Paradis, and for his friends. So him to say he doesn’t know in the last chapter is asinine.
Watching AOT and character’s, especially Eren, be destroyed is really sad. But to see defenders try to defend this shit and gaslight others to believe them or “you didn’t understand the story!” Or “you’re not a true fan!” makes my blood boil.
As an anime only reading this made me sad because I said literally in a post recently to see Eren die after living a life of such hardship and not accomplish anything is so sad
To that first question, idk if you were trying to cook something amazing, but it backfired badly. He wanted to do the rumbling but because he isn't a complete sociopath and has morals.
@@errwhattheflip … exactly. That’s my point. If Eren was a psychopath and planned to be one all along, he wouldn’t feel remorse or trying to find other alternatives.
Did Invaderzz say he was some psychopath?
The idea of Eren being bored is a bit of a weird layer. A true one which is blatantly stated, but weird nonetheless. Eren's boredom is moreso due to his internal nature of wanting freedom, and specifically to fight for it. He's always been characterized as a fighter with a huge drive for action. Not much of a strategist and allat. His boredom is mostly stemmed from not being able to apply that desire to fight for his freedom, which obviously wouldn't apply to the rumbling.
I don't think that's why Eren was so upset about humans outside the walls. Isayama corrects it by clarifying that it was due to the oppression by people. Eren was always aware of how the walls were restrictive of the freedom of others. That's why he wanted to reach the sea and join the survey corps.
Eren saying he didn't know is juxtaposed by his father saying "Eren you are free", so obviously we know that it was for that, but Eren doesn't fully understand his own motives. Why did he want freedom? It isn't enough to just say "It's part of who he is" because that doesn't answer anything. Hence the "I don't know why" @@titanblade3706
The entire Invaderz video is him pulling out these random terms to excuse all of the holes since Isayama can't do no wrong💀
“Eren “Michael Myers” Jaeger” Nah im dead 💀
lol same
Making your main characters most important trait be reviled in a gag series not apart of the main manga that most people won’t take seriously or read is the opposite of good writing.
I like how these Eds just totally forget that Paradis exists.. Not once in these videos do they mention how they were being genocided for decades that Eren actually cared about his mother and his home which was destroyed due to the outside world its always like it was cause he wanted it like the outside world didn't deserve what was coming.. Eren never cared about his parents or his homeland he just wanted his own freedom and lives of his friends which again he had no idea that they would actually achieve..Like Eren's biggest influence throughout the whole story was his mother and the effect her ideology had on him...Not once in this whole video did anyone talk about that...139 ruins "Bystander" which from a writing pov was my favourite chapter
Oh, how much i agree with defenders forgetting about Paradis entirely. They root for the oppressors. Like, did we watch/read the same story? They wanna save the world just because there are a few more innocent people. Where do they leave Paradis at? In the garbage. The island doesn't matter. The world is important. What did Armin sacrificed at all?! Nothing, and he gained everything. Pfft.
@@trancer4e4life So are you saying the ideal ending would have had Eren killing the entirety of humanity outside the walls? What do you mean Paradis was left in the garbage they had 2,000 years of peace before their destruction? (Okay the exact time isn't stated, and it seems to be a few decades longer in the anime than the manga.)
Nobody forgets Paradis, but the rumbling was never written to be a positive or justified event
Well, ch 139 justifies it@@errwhattheflip
isayama and ending defenders want us to feel bad for ppl outside the walls so bad when they're the same ppl who put paradis eldians in an open air prison with limited knowledge, technology, freedom and food and sent titans massacring them there regularly.
like sorry but paradis eldians will never be these bad ppl yall wanted them to be in s4. idgaf abt anyone outside the walls
"No! I don't want that! Odin debunking Invaderzz's crappy arguments. I want Invaderzz to be a respected ending defender in the fanbase, for ten years at least!"
It’s hard to believe but I’m in love with Invaderzz 🥺
@@Odin69 what a man you are
They were crappy arguments
@@D14MBK How is that ad hominem? Ad hominem is when you go after a person rather than the arguments they're making so how is calling Invaderzz's points crappy an ad hominem?
You'll find that a lot of ending defenders are compromised because they treat AOT like it's their personal religion. It's a sacred text with no flaws, protected against anyone who dare point out it's failings. It's also interesting how a lot of them become or pretend to be masters of literature to explain some of the most simple characterizations incorrectly.
Also the OST in the background, I need that.
Oneheart - this feeling
@@Odin69 I edited my comment lol but thank you man, as an artist I need that soothing ambience on loop lmao
Based Baldwin fan
" a lot of them become or pretend to be masters of literature to explain some of the most simple characterizations incorrectly"
EXACTLY! They needlessly obfuscate the concept of freedom, showing the lengths they will go to in order to protect their sacred and precious text lol
I just realized, by Invaderzz interpretation of Eren, he's like Ryuk from Death Note. A bored Death God who wants to see chaos happen 😂
Odin back at it again, debunking these ch 139 lovers
They be debunking themselves
@@Odin69 Their shooting themselves, we don't even have to do it.
That's the worst part... @@Odin69
Shash syndrome? Wrong. It should be Invaderzz syndrome because Invaderzz did it first. SHASH was afterwards in Tatacaw, where he failed in regurgitating what Invaderzz said.
Ending defenders destroying eachothers arguments by accident haha. We don't need to argue against them. Just laugh and slap some sense in to their stupid fans. Trust me I fell for Invaderzz video when I was an ED luckily after reading the manga again I realised he was a clown and his own video turned me from an ED in to a logical person who could accept that his favourite fiction had become trash thanks to shipping and the dogshit fabdom and editors
Gotta say You, Saint, and Browns are the best at tearing ED arguments apart! And IMO Shash is a better ED than Invaderzz by miles. Also Miku and Marin are best waifus! Just add Yor Forger and you got my holy trinity!
Yor is 🔥
I always say this. You don't have to argue with Ending Defenders they contradict and destroy their own arguments themselves.
You wanna know how determinism works in Attack on Titan? It's a shield from criticism of contrived, bullshit writing. If you call out something that doesn't make sense, ending defenders can go, "It's predetermined, fuck you!"
I know I’m late to the video, but I think this is a pretty good analogy for the ending. Imagine AOT was originally a beautiful landscape painting with a ton of wonderful detail and a warm atmosphere, constantly being worked on by the painter. People love and follow the progress on painting and the it’s clear the artist knows his craft. The painter flounders a bit but the overall image is still coming together well. One day, the painter decides he’s almost finished and decides to do a few final ‘touch-ups’. He distorts the atmosphere of the painting with darker, desaturated colors, and paints over all of the extremely detailed landscape with a dense fog which makes the whole thing blurry and covers up the detail that was once clearly visible. Half of the people who were following it question why the hell the painter decided to change the whole direction of the piece and cover up his beautiful detailed work with some ugly fog, while the other half defends it, stating how genius the painter was in creating the dark tone, and that the fog is actually awesome because it’s ‘realistic’ and adds to the tone.
This is basically where the AOT fandom is. The defenders tend to fixate on 139 in a vacuum, trying to rationalize all of the random, confusing aspects of the ending through self-contained headcanon. Our side generally focuses more on the bigger picture. The problem that many defenders don’t realize is that 139 being confusing and sloppily written is the least of it’s problems. The biggest issue is that it just doesn’t fit with the established story. None of it’s plot twists were properly foreshadowed (name me a single person who predicted any of the Eren twists prior to 139) and they failed to add anything. In most cases, the twists overwrote prior, perfectly fine plot points and completely replaced them with inferior ones. The problem is not that Eren’s motivation is irredeemable and confusing. The problem is that his motivation USED to be understandable and even sympathetic, but got REPLACED by a confusing and Iess relatable one. Even if his motivation can make sense if you think about it hard enough, it’s inherently less understandable, less sympathetic, and thus, less in-depth than Eren’s previously established one. Plot twists, especially those at the end of a series need to reveal information and ADD to what’s already established. Almost all if not every single plot twist in 139 actively removes depth and nuance from the story, as most clearly shown with Eren, so they should have never been included. Defenders tend to overlook this issue however, viewing the series through the lense that this deeper, superior version of the story never existed and use 139 as a basis to say that we were always overthinking things. But considering damn near NOTHING in the story foreshadowed most of 139’s twists and a good chunk of foreshadowing seemed to be point towards plot points that never went anywhere, I’m confident in saying our analysis is accurate. We were going to get our work of art, and were robbed by a last-minute paint-over that needlessly tried to ‘course-correct’ art already going in a beautiful direction, sending it straight into the brick wall of mediocrity. Defenders might think that the work of art we sought after never existed, and that 139 was always the story. But as someone who followed the series for years before 139, I know that the AOT we ended with is not the same one we fell in love with. We’re going to stick by the series’ original vision to the end, even if we need to rely on fan-mangas like AOTNR to do it.
Thank you for reading my geeky-ass essay about a manga, if you made it this far. Hope you enjoyed.
Perfectly said
I watched a video that actually convinced me that this was Isayama's original ending. It seems like he put himself into the story as Eren where he had to make a bad ending.
Honestly goated comment, keep spittin'.
And exactly, even if what Eren's characterization was retconned to isn't as interesting as what he was before imo, it could have totally worked and been satisfying had the story built up to it (Like Breaking Bad).
But since that wasn't the story we were given all this time, Eren suddenly being that way sucks balls
It used to be that everybody was upset that Eren became the bad guy in season 4. And so here's what I don't get why are you all now saying that chapter 139 ruined Eren? Eren was going head-long first into the Rumbling before the final 2 episodes (I didn't read the manga). If Eren tried to destroy the world since the beginning of season 4, and it was only at the very end that we learn that Eren had always planned on being defeated after 80% of the world had died, thus bringing him closer to being seen as the hero we knew in the first three seasons, then why say that it was chapter 139 that ruined it?
@@castonyoung7514 There is quite a lot of content on RUclips explaining this. So I am not gonna even pretend like I can drop all the details on you here in this comment of why people hate the ending. If you care enough then you can find it.
The ending that ending haters typically wanted was one where Eren finished the rumbling and became the ultimate bad guy.
When I first listen to this invaderzz guy i thought we was reading two different stories they just can't accept that 139 completely ruins eren character good video man i enjoy listening to your previous videos on eren character keep up the good work 👍
:)
It used to be that everybody was upset that Eren became the bad guy in season 4. And so here's what I don't get why are you all now saying that chapter 139 ruined Eren? Eren was going head-long first into the Rumbling before the final 2 episodes (I didn't read the manga). If Eren tried to destroy the world since the beginning of season 4, and it was only at the very end that we learn that Eren had always planned on being defeated after 80% of the world had died, thus bringing him over 20% closer to being seen as the hero we knew in the first three seasons, then why say that it was chapter 139 that ruined it?
@@castonyoung7514 I was reading the manga at the time and what you have to realize is that is a gradual decay that takes place after the end of what you know as Season 3 Part 2. The problem is that those small imperfections added up and the story, in its limited time frame, was unable to resolve those elements of the story. Each mistake that diverted the series from its core, essential themes further damaged the narrative. And some of those mistakes couldn't easily be undone. Like the formation of the alliance: once that was established, there was no way to go back and undo it. And even if Isayama had tried to undo it, it would have only further muddled the story, bogging it down and wasting time. Chapter 137 was the straw that really broke the camel's from what I can see. However, other details like Levi's survival, the formation of the alliance, Mikasa refusing to get over her unhealthy association with Eren and the lack of insight into her ancestral history, Historia being revealed to carry the child of a random character instead of Eren, (not even a main character mind you; if this series was so well planned, why didn't Isayama introduce this random farmer guy earlier and try to develop a believable relationship with such a significant character as Historia?). I can go on, but the problem is that many of the later decisions revolve around more typical shonen tropes and plot armor that greatly exceeds the amount established as acceptable previously in the series. That's why many call it Marvel-tier, Disney-tier, Deus-ex Machina, etc.
Also, to be fair, people were only just getting used to this change of character after the time skip. People naturally don't like change, but Isayama did a great job of selling Eren's new character. After all, it fit really well with not only Eren's character development, but with the core themes of the series that had become more prominent in season 3.
Isayama is god and you can’t blame god for not understanding the story
Invaderzz did (not) understand the story
Ahhh yes. Another day, another AoT ED defenders trying so die-hard to play mental gymnastics to convince us that the ending and the steps that led up to it were objectively good. I should do a video of my own expressing my own thoughts about this guy's videos and how hilariously contradictory they are.
At least he ain't Shash, tho.
Yes you should!
@@Odin69 I'll see what I can do. Likely a live stream, perhaps?
:)
@@Odin69 Sages Rain legit made a video criticising the ending and "hating" on it. It didn't get many views so he decided to make a new one supporting the ending and well he got slightly more views. This just shows how disingenuous these guys are
Destroying ending defenders bs as always!
I'm dead when you said 'shash syndrome' 😂
Overall I like your explanation. Great video, as always!
now if he just accepts saint invite for a debate.
Odin, what a man you are… 🥹
Ending lover here, enjoyed this video. I loved the way you calmly and rationally took apart Invaderzz's arguments. As I found his arguments to be a stretch. I don't know if I have Sash Syndrome or not.
Eren is the protagonist and I'm glad we agree on that. His actions were the driving force of the story and remained the center of the story for a majority of it. The only time where he wasn't the protagonist was during Liberio. Where the entire point was to see the other side.
It's sad to really come to grips with the ending being terrible. I just want to continue liking in despite it's flaws as when I read the ending. I felt satisfied. But with these arguments, I don't know if I should like it or not.
I get it man, lately I've been rewatching some Amazing moments from this series, Eren activating the coordinates, Eren saving Armin before getting eating, Historia betraying her father, Levi vs Kenny, the collosal and armor identity, Armin's sacrifice, Erwin's charge, Jean becoming a leader, the Nutcracker titan, Eren and Reiner meeting in marley, such great moments.
I wish Aot landed the ending because I just find this series so good, easy 9/10 for me. But then the last 15% happen...
I don't criticise it because I want to see it fail, but because I absolutely loved this serie.
What could have been...
Doing the rumbling because of boredom is much more of a Kenny thing if he got the power and quickly realized it didn't make him any more compassionate.
I don't even think he would do it, but that makes more sense, so your point still stands.
The funniest thing was the anime basically codified invaderzz video into the canon and proved it was the correct interpretation, and people are still malding over him lol
yeah almost as if Mappa changed the ending to fit Invaderzz garbage interpretation, the fact that Eren & Armin's Convo was changed refutes Invaderzz's claim
I'm planning on writing my own story. I don't know how to write, and I failed English 4 times before dropping out of highschool. But, it should be pretty easy. I'm just going to make my characters all perfect predictors. That way, everything makes sense
Just in time Odin senpai. Better timing than Yellow Flash of the Leaf.
Naruto reference!
yams really ruined eren so the marleyans and other ppl outside the walls would come across as victims, even though they never were. even the eldians outside the walls were objectively less in the right abt what they did than paradis eldians. paradis eldians didnt kill kids until s4 and thought that titans were .. titans. not human beings. but eldians in marley KNEW the entirety of eldian history and still went ahead to massacre paradis eldians and even mock their deaths (annie) all for some status in marley - the country that oppressed them in the first place aka nazi germany. like WHAT??? how did a story abt oppression turn into sth where our main guy is now suddenly in the wrong and we're forced to believe nazi germany aka marley and its inhabitants and the rest of the world deserve more empathy than the oppressed ppl aka paradis eldians????
yams didnt only ruin eren tho. he also ruined every other character from inside the walls bc they all suddenly started acting inconsistent (them completely forgiving annie for example) and becoming pacifists ???? also why tf was it AGAIN only paradis eldians dying and killing each other in s4 while the oppressor and self hating eldians from outside the walls got away with everything and didnt pay any price??????
fuckass reiner and annie got more redemption and a happy ending than eren. like WHAT.
this is why i could have been ok with eren becoming a villain in the end and his friends stopping it HOWEVER that should not have been an excuse to portray the eldian cause as an apolitical "violence always bad" thing. eren becoming a villain doesnt mean paradis eldians were wrong all along 😂😂 it also doesnt prove the world outside the walls right.
Me on my way to respect people's opinion on the ending even if they think its terrible :
My sussy baka has, once again, published another astonishing video. Keep up the grind, my guy.
🥺❤️😘
I just realized something. Rewatching this
If Eren gained an ability that could make him see time all at once, He should be able to know what is the organic way that he’s going to lose. He should be able to see every moment, to the smallest interstices of time. If he could see through time and it exists all at once, he should be able to see what the ones who are going to stop going to say, think & do, since their all Eldians and could read their memories in the future and past like Zeke did with Grisha’s memories & he’s not even able to use the full power of the founder.
If that’s the case, then for what reason does he need to change his entire plan to lead to that future? His involvement & interruptions shouldn’t be needed.
I don't know if you know this or mention this in your vid (just started watching) but back when 139 was released invaderzz hated it and was supporter of anr + historia importance etc etc. If you look up his old comments on reddit you'll find him hating on ending
im pretty sure invaderzz mentioned something along those lines in the eren video
Only good thing about those videos is we get more content outta you!!!
AoT Trash Ending!!!
There was no need to start the rumbling and genocide. The author could have changed the story and saved Eren’s character. To show Ymir Mikasa’s love for Eren, he killed 80% of the population of different parts of the world. Those people might not even know about Eldians. After plotting that story, it was the only option left to kill Eren. The author should have changed the story before the rumbling.
Odin, have you seen Invaderzz latest video on " The Rumbling is indefensible". Damn that video got ratioed by 50%. 😂
It's really hypocritical for him to say do not defend the Rumbling, yet defend what happened in the manga by saying it's circumstances driven. 🍌
Nah I haven’t seen it, all I know is that he got ratiod
@@Odin69 Yup. It's real hard ratio statistically by 50%. 😂
The whole point of Eren was a mild mannered ordinary fellow who was in a tyrannical world who had a no other choice but violence if He was gonna be free even death knocked on His door If He wasn't gonna use violence and Dies Caste is more like a What If? Marvel equivalent to AOT
Invaderzz's time travel shenanigans just make me so mad lol. So Grisha desperately doesn't want Eren to get the titan. But he makes the decision to do it because he sees a future where he does. But theoretically, in this universe, if grisha still didn't want to do it after seeing the future, he could have just not done it? So basically, grisha wrongly believes he has only one choice, despite the fact that any human seeing a bad VISION of the future would probably attempt to change it. Grisha even attempted to change it by yelling at zeke. It makes no sense to use this as a character motivation.
It's basically just it happened because Grisha is an idiot. But I don't even think they believe this. They genuinely believe it'd be impossible for grisha or anyone to change what they're doing given that they see the future (duh because it's the future). But that future is something he doesn't want. So there is literally zero reason why it would ever happen other than the fact that he sees it in the future. So, even though it doesn't make sense, it's basically "the plot happened this way because fate, because god wrote it this way. That's just life". That's not good storytelling. They've basically written a way to excuse the writing of any character who has seen the future. You need to be on extreme copium to buy this argument, but honestly I understand why people would believe it.
I wonder how many ending defenders actually believe in this. Because invaderzz's video explaining this (the most popular one) is pretty big and respected in the aot community among ending defenders. But I rarely actually see anyone bring this up on Twitter or Reddit. The determinism argument is so bad, I feel like even a lot of ending defenders would have a hard time buying it.
Yeah, the AOT world is deterministic, but also Grisha gave eren the Titan mainly because of Carla.
Few problems and I haven't even fully watched past the first 5 minutes. You claimed that Eren did the rumbling out of necessity because his enemies wanted to destroy them, but Eren himself claimed that he doesn't actually have any enemies; that it's just people, and even before the ending we know Eren already knew that what he was doing wasn't just killing enemies but killing human beings, dreams, etc.
The reason Eren holds his "I'll keep moving forward until my enemies are destroyed" is because it's a self-deluding statement, going back to his inner nature from childhood. As he's said before, Eren has always had an intrinsic desire to be free, even before he knew of the concept and was willing to do anything for it, even take away the freedoms (lives) of others who threaten his. Eren pretty much creates this childish persona, based on those ideals, to make his life easier so that he can see the other side as just enemies and not truly human beings.
But we've seen this persona break. This is mainly in his breakdown with that refugee kid where he literally states that he did it, not to protect Paradis or his friends (albeit that was a motive of his), but because he wanted to wipe everything out after realizing how the outside world was.
That doesn't sound like he was forced to by the world. Eren was forced, but only by his internal nature. That inner part of himself that always drove him forward regardless of what he believed
"If someone wants to take away my freedom, I won't hesitate to take away theirs", he verbatim states that he won't bother anyone UNLESS they try kill him. What about that statement implies that he would kill/rumble the world bc he just wanted to?
@@tinytitan8807 Because he said it like twice? Eren isn’t just taking freedom away. He literally cannot live without violence and combat. It’s why he immediately looks at Armin’s book and sees the titan’s oppression instead of just the wonder of the seas. There’s a reason why he has his “if we can’t fight we can’t win” thing
@@errwhattheflip by that logic if there weren't ANY walls no Titans and if world was peaceful he'd want to take away someone's freedom bc his "violent nature" which doesn't make sense cuz it goes against his "if someone takes away my freedom I won't hesitate to take away theirs" IE if someone PROVOKES me I won't sit lightly and take it Idk how you took that sentence and applied it to, "he would kill ppl bc his violent" bc guess what that's how most irl ppl are bc all he means is just don't try provoke with him and he won't do anything to you.
Eren is a reactionary person bc prepare yourself this may shock you but Eren is only violent out of necessity.
Eren really doesn’t care or doesn’t want freedom his primary goal is to fight for it. And that’s why he joined the scouts, that’s why he went to marlya n thats why he did the rumbling.
the explanation for shash syndrome if hilarious
The ending of AOT is so well written that nobody knows what the hell was going on and even people who like the ending have to resort to philosophical arguments as speculation
Peak thumbnail 💀
42:02 I heard that he’s one of those that say it was “civil war”
Will you also review his other video, The Rumbling is Indefensible?
Hmm probably not tbh
armin assumed thats what he saw in chapter 90, he didnt say yes, or agree
Bro why do you speed up your videos, I have to watch in 0.75
Very nice video! You exposed him contradicting himself 3/4 times xD
And "being a slave to freedom" sounds cool but is an empty nonsensical sentence xD
Those who think the ending is peak fiction have never read good fiction before. You can tell that they have never read and understood classic novels.
you're right, ODDTAXI RULES!
You are wrong about retro causality. Retro causality says knowledge of the future becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Like Oedipus
Yeah but that is "fate" in the end: When you know the end you can not change it because everything you do will lead to it. With the little tiny fact: You can kill every asshole including yourself that you saw in that future.. And there is again a paradox (create other timeline other univers or "kill" the fate and create an new one) that is the probleme you can't say: Thats the "rule" in my "univers" for "Timetravel" because: Every rule got a paradox or a million....
Good video man keep it up 👍
Great video! The "Ending Defenders vs Ending Defenders" segment is my favorite. It's probably one of the best evidences that the ending is poorly written.
Also Odin, I want to suggest watching Mushoku Tensei. Not because it has anything to do with AoT, it just that I think someone who is as analytical and perceptive as you would enjoy it and I hope to see you make a video about it someday. The first few episode have some controversial scenes but it only last up to episode 8 in the anime, other than that the show is amazing through and through. One of my friend (who watch more anime / manga than I do and, more importantly, is also an AoT ending hater 😂 ) have just finished reading the LN and he said that it blew his mind how every details and characters, even minor characters have an important role to play in the story. I specifically told him not to spoil me about the ending, but from watching ss1 and hearing about some spoilers, it has already became my favorite shows ever. Don't read the manga tho, since the anime is adapted from the LN and everyone in the community agreed that the manga suck compare to the anime and LN of Mushoku Tensei.
I love Mushoku Tensei! It was my third favorite anime of last year!
@@Odin69 Ohhh wow, didn't know you watched it. Good to know that you like it 💪 But third?! 😳 Wait then which were the top 2? 😂
1. Eighty Six 2. Odd Taxi 3. MT
86 was the clear number 1 for me. Odd Taxi and MT are very close, but to me these 3 were the definitive best anime last year
I made a top 10 anime of 2021 video if you want to see my whole list and the reasonings I give! :)
@@Odin69 Ahhh ok, I see. Haven't watch the 86 nor odd taxi yet, but I remember many people enjoyed 86 and Gigguk ranked odd taxi as his top 3 for anime 2021 (top 1 being Mushoku Tensei and the only reason why Odd Taxi got top 3 is because Gigguk doesn't know about AoT ending so he put AoT at #2) . My taste in anime is quite similar to Gigguk and he ranked 86 as his top 9 so personally speaking I probably would not enjoy it as much as you did (it'll probably be my top 3 last year if I did watch it) but I'm interested in seeing your thoughts so yeah I'll go watch that video of yours ^^
37:51 LMFAOOO YOU JUST EXPOSED EDs
These Waifus are like fine Wines Odin, the older they get the more DELICIOUS they are and dry
Common Rafa W.
This video aged like milk with the slave to freedom stuff. Love it when new source material retroactively debunks videos
Fr, dude looks like a clown now for calling ending interpreters and defenders as “Pseudo-intellectuals”. Now the Anime has confirmed the defenders theories and interpretations it’ll be interesting to see how they move the goal post
@@BigJMCisayama retconning Eren in the anime doesn't prove these videos wrong it just proves how much isayama failed
@@JojoSmacks Its not a retcon if its consistent with the rest of the story. Also dont u have loli CP to like bro?
@@JojoSmacks No, what it proves is that Invaderzz original interpretation was correct which is clearly shown in the anime. You can’t just go calling a retcon now because your interpretation was incorrect. You’re graspy at straws at this point.
36:57 Nah on twitter there’s tons of people who argue/agree that Eren wasn’t acting, and shash did too in his Eren analysis video
Honestly the ending would've been fine if Armin is the one killing Eren, not Mikasa. It would at least conclude the theme of "necessary evil" when the ultimate pacifist of the story is pushed to kill his best friend for the peace he sought for.
It would still be not great ending because of other things you've explained in these videos, but it can still be not pro-genocide AND shows that Armin has grown some balls that he would use violent measures when absolutely necessary, thus his talk-no-jutsu journey in the epilogue feels like have some bite to it. Heck, Ishi can even still have a bit of that martyr eren moment and having the rumbling near complete when he does like Armin being quite late, time move faster in real world when they talk or something, thus still guarantee the safety of paradiso. Again, not gonna be great ending, but it wouldn't be as trash. All just with the cheap, cheap price of not doing this ending to Mikasa plotline (ideally this plotline's ending would just be Mikasa letting go of her obsession/false image of Eren and moving on, but nobody would mind even if it's unsolved forever)
Comparing Light Yagami and Walter White to Eren is a major flaw a lot of people tend to make. It highlights the thinking flaw and why they don’t like how Eren ended up. In their minds he’s still the main character and protagonist of the story, so they want to fully understand his motives, when he’s NOT! The difference is we follow Walters and Lights POV throughout the entire story, till the very end, even when they become evil. That’s not what happened with Eren! After Historias hand kiss, we completely lose sight of Erens POV. He’s not leading us through the story anymore and the main character position got split amongst the Marley / Paradies characters. In short, Eren actually became THE antagonist of the story, while Walter and light remained main characters.
So comparing their character arcs to Eren doesn’t make any sense, cause we purposefully lose sight of Erens motivations and we are not supposed to fully understand and agree with his decisions. He’s literally the antagonist, not only becoming bad.
A lack of POV doesn’t change the position of a MC/Protagonist. That’s like saying Sasuke became the MC of Naruto when he fought killer Bee because we’re no longer being lead through the story with Naruto in the specific part of the story. An Arc/event centering around a certain individual more than the protagonist doesn’t change protagonist or antagonist unless the author specifically states that’s the case & writes it. (Edited)
@@Kid_Kaizu Bad comparison because Naruto is the MC of the story, not Sasuke, so I never said anything close to this. That comparison would only make sense If Naruto was the one who left the village in later arcs, with us losing his POV for major parts of the story, while we continue it from the remaining Team 7s view. However, we never lost sight of Narutos goals and motivations, while Erens goals and motivations got hidden from us purposefully after reaching the sea. The MC Disposition of AoT and the POV got literally turned on it’s head since the Marley Arc. That’s when Isayama decided to draw parallels between the new and old characters, in relation to prior events happening. The attack on Marley mimics the first attack from chapter one for reasons, with the main difference being that Eren is the antagonist this time around.
Please review attack on titan no requiem Part 3.
I finally watched the final season of AOT. And I'm cool with Eren becoming a villian and his friends having to take him out. However the way the story played out just stinks of bad writing. It was needlessly convoluted and had too many contradictions to be a satisfying conclusion. I will disagree on one of your points though. Eren did indeed become the antagonist of the story. The reason being because he stopped being a POV character and became the foil for the rest of the POV characters to be stopped. After he starts the rumbling, we only really see Eren from the point of view of other characters.
If this is him being NICE, I hate to see what he was like with Sash.
What is the background music called?
Oneheart - this feeling
@@Odin69 thanks
7:32 when did he ever say it was perfect?
l am Japanese, what is this? In Japan, fans don't redraw a manga just because they didn't like the last episode. Nor do other fans say things like "this is better than the original work". Because Japanese people always respect the author. I have never seen this kind of behavior in the history of Japanese manga.
It makes me very sad. This is extremely disrespectful to Isayama-sensei. AOTNR is not at all known or talked about in Japan. Also, the majority has accepted the last episode.
I was disappointed to be reminded of the difference in ethnicity.
進撃の巨人をこれ以上販さないでくださ い。 こんな事になるなら、外国に日本の漫画を 送り出すべきではなかった。>!/s!
Its already considered one of the best animes. Just because you can't cope about the ending doesn't mean people won't talk about it. Aot already is popular and won a lot of rewards.
Nice copypasta from Titanfolk
Based Titanfolker
Just take it as a fanfiction then, exept for AoT, ppl never redrew a manga story, and bc Japan doesn't do it doesn't mean others can't, you aren't special
ODIN IS KING SHIT 👑
Ouch; this has aged poorly since actually ending friend; eren most definitely wanted to commit the rumbling, and wasn't even sure why
That is worse lmao.
Finally 🫶🏼
Invaderz watched too much of breaking bad
I wonder did Shash & Invaderzz fans mob against you after this video? 🤔
Nah
@@Odin69 But hey, you managed to destroy not one but two big Ending Defenders. 😂
If on Twitter space, those two are big. There's a few more like Akshit, Vincent, Criticold (this dude is more pretentious than Shash), Qoenntrell that are big although they're at max 5k followers. 😂
Will you review ANR part 3?
Tbh probably not, I haven’t even read it yet
this entire video is you taking a sentence or two out of context and blowing it out of proportion. you act like a character’s motivations can’t change or even conflict at different points in a story. sorry attack on titan wasn’t “eren finally gets powerful enough for revenge and destroys his enemies 😈” like damn bro that would’ve been some groundbreaking writing.
Just say you didn't watch the video💀and AOT
@@tinytitan8807 yeah man didn’t watch either just randomly commented 👍
@@thr0ne_ Acknowledging that you made an illogical comment based on nothing but headcanon is the first step to change😁
@@tinytitan8807 it’s not illogical you just disagree with it lol
@@thr0ne_ you said, " entire video is you taking a sentence or two out of context and blowing it out of proportion" Context is established he says what happens prior then let's Invaders talk at no point is context taken out bc the scene being shown should tell you context hence why I say you probably didn't watch AOT bc you SHOULD know the context of the scenes both Invaderz and Odin are talking of and he several times uses sources from both Invaderzz video AND the manga/anime as proof so again I came to the conclusion you neither watched the video nor the anime.
bro i dont agree with alot of invaderz, but u need some comprehension skills, just straight up twisted what he said
This video actually raised my opinion on Attack on Titan funnily enough, I was confused by a few points in the ending and looking it up online just left me even more confused and soured my opinion of the ending. Now I see its just people jumping through hoops to defend issues that ended up having theories on the show that made it worse than it actually was. Now I see its just an okay but flawed ending instead of a giant confusing mess that ruins the whole show
Peak is peak . I was expecting a challenging way to Debunk Invaders but, this wasn't it. Bro literally admitted it was subjective an you still didn't move past it.
kino
All these videos saying invaderz was wrong legit in the anime eren himself says” there was more to it, i hated the world outside the walls and wanted to erase it..” doesnt that sentence alone when talking to ramzi say invaderz is right in that saving eldia wasnt his only motivation? It was also because he WANTED TO DO IT
why did he hate the world outside the walls?
@@JinxisHere758 because hes childish and it wasnt the dream he dreamt of his entire life that him and armin had.. once he found out it was the opposite of what he thought he wanted to “erase it all away” . Atleast thats what i took from watching the show. Manga might give more in dept.
@@rickyclark9754🤦🏻♂️
@@marshalkagami am i wrong? Was that not also another reason besides them wanting to destroy paradis? Dont hand palm me im tryna understand this lol
@@rickyclark9754 no. There is no other reason lol. Protecting the island of paradis from being destroyed is the sole reason that eren enacts the rumbling. And that can be backed up via the source material, more than enough breadcrumbs that lead directly to that conclusion. The way that invaderzz describes eren’s motivations you’d think he was talkin about the columbine shooters or some shit. And it’s completely baseless. He arrived at his conclusion by taking unnecessary liberties in his interpretation of the source material.
Yeah...you're entirely wrong
Lol Eren died a virgin and accomplished nothing! 😂😂🤣
You should do some research on determinism. You might find in fact that you dont have free will. Does that make your entire story of your life meaningless, perhaps.
An ending hater makes a video saying that an ending lover doesn't understand the story. And ofc surprise surprise he reads AoT No Requiem. And unironically uses the word "wifu" and fetishises anime girls over real women. Your vibe is already off-putting as is. Makes it real difficult to finish the video full of wrong aot takes that have been debunked by the anime ending.
Just like we say in french you whippin everything. What does hating Aot ending has to do with calling anime girls wifu? As a woman that didn't like Aot I don't call girls wifu, and honnestly you're embarassing, not even answering his points, just calling him wrong bc...he didn't like the ending? And stop with those stupid comparaisons
@@daeith1233 calling anime girls wifus just adds to the overall cringe. And as for just saying he's wrong, that's cause he is. He made all the point that the ending itself debunked. What's the point of pointing out all the ways he's wrong. I didn't even bother finishing the video that's made in bad faith anyway.
@@maddie_97 the ending works bc it justify itself, but with totally different reasons that the philosophy the anime gave us so far, that's why he's debunking it. Tbh it's not hard, you're an AoT fan and you watched 4 seasons, you saw the evolution of story, yet the ending seems to have taken a total different path from that evolution, importants characters being sided, after being showed as predominant to the story, the contrary happening, some characters not getting proper conclusion, or a conclusion that contradict the one they gave you so far. My biggest issue is with love being the center of the resolution. I remember when I watched AoT finale being like "Oh I didn't remember Eren's feelings for Mikasa being this strong, or Eren and Mikasa's relationship being so revelant to the story to the point that it hinted the ending, guess I'll rewatch it from a shipper pov to understand it better" (I read the ending 3 years ago and for some reasons stopped being obsessed with aot after that) and...it didn't work. You barely remember Eren's so strong love feelings for Mikasa, what's worse is that instead of making me a total EM shipper, I rediscovered characters I didn't know I would have like so much years ago, like my fav used to be Mikasa and now it's Levi Erwin Hange for example. Saw how ending defender keep using the same narrativ "it's Eren story narrated by Armin and from Mikasa's pov" of saying things to make Mikasa look like the ULTIMATE main character, but watching AoT (or reading it) you barely remember Mikasa being a main, like yeah she's always there but you barely got her thoughts after her peak Trost arc, she's basically a watcher, if we didn't show her you could easily forget abt her presence. So a character being so narratively irrevelant suddently being the key a story she didn't even look involved in is a pretty debunkable thing
@@daeith1233 to clear the record, I'm not saying that aot had the perfect ending, I actually agree with some of the points you were making (important characters like Historia sidelined), I'm just saying Odin's criticism of invaderzz points is so off base I can't even begin to say it. Invaderzz hit the nail on the head with the way he interpreted what Isayama was going for with Eren's character. It sounded like Odin's problem was with invaderzz's supposed misinterpretation of aot, while his actual problem should have been with the route that Isayama had taken with his story. Invaderzz was damn near perfect with bringing out the author's intent. Odin just didn't like the intent itself (which is ok, btw, I'm not saying it's not).
@@daeith1233 as for Mikasa'a importance to the story, well she's actually one of the 3 main protagonists, so ofc her role in the finale and in Eren's character arc is important. You can argue Isayama didn't portray Eren's mutual feelings for Mikasa very clearly but I'd say it's a culture thing. Western expressions of love are more explicit than Eastern ones. Plus you have to take into account Eren and Mikasa'a age at the time. Eren very much took Mikasa for granted and was even jealous of her at the time but as he matured he expressed his appreciation of her that eventually grew into love with him reaching young adulthood. So it makes sense that this whole Eren loves Mikasa narrative didn't start till after the time skip.
I disagree heavily with this video, and found almost all of the argumentation very weak. I'll try to break it down in this comment chronologically. TL:DR at the bottom.
Eren's Nature:
This entire section is built on a large misunderstanding of Invaderzz's point, and made the entire section one gigantic strawman. Odin says Invaderzz supposedly claimed Eren is a "psychopath who would destroy the world out of boredom of not having to fight for freedom", and asks why Ending defenders think this is good character writing.
But the point was not that. At all. Invaderzz used School Castes as an example to explore Eren's nature. About his yearning to fight for freedom at all costs. And the insane things he would be willing to do to achieve said freedom. About his deep wishes to be able to fight for freedom despite having it. It arguably makes Eren a better character. Not because it makes him seem psychopathic, but because it makes sense for his morals to do something as inexcusable as the Rumbling. Armin would never do it in Eren's shoes, nor Levi, nor Erwin, not ANYONE. But for Eren it's justified- due to both his morals and his nature. That isn't to say Eren DOESN'T have personal reasons to do the Rumbling. He justifies it believably, and his goal is genuine amd still valid. The point was that it's in his nature to resort to the Rumbling, no matter how unnecessary it really was.
Determinism:
First, let me say this: I agree that Invaderzz and Isayama could have expanded upon this concept better. But I found Odin's argumentation in this video to be non-functional.
Determinism is NOT inherently tied to fate or destiny, as Odin heavily implies here. Determinism means that a set future is inherently based on a chain of events and decisions in the past and present. Whether it is set in stone or not is irrelevant in this context. PRE-DETERMINISM on the other hand is more closely tied to fate, Because that means that the past present and future is determined by something, whether it is destiny, god or a person.
Now, in a deterministic world without perfect predictors, the world would seem just like ours. Choices in the past will affect the future, and "free will" is just a result of us making choices. A deterministic world can only be felt WHEN perfect predictors appear, who can confirm that the future is set in stone. Otherwise, determinism is a philosophy, and only a philosophy.
Since AoT has perfect predictors (Attack Titan shifters), they confirm that fate is set in stone, because they can see memories of the future that are unavoidable. This is where the Newcomb's Paradox comes in. When a perfect predictor sees the future, and makes decisions based on that vision, they cannot know whether the future happens inherently, or happens BECAUSE they saw it in the first place. Odin somehow claims this is contradictive, when this concept is deeply tied into determinism. If a vision of the future comes true no matter what, it means that world is deterministic, but whether the future was unavoidable or not is impossible. Since perfect predictors are only predictors, not governors of causality.
But this is by no means it's a convenient writing tool, as Odin claimed. It's just worldbuilding and time travel mechanics.
Grisha giving the titan to Eren is not "because determinism". It's moreso that "determinism dictates that a predetermined outcome will be based on people's choices, and it cannot be changed". So why Grisha gave Eren the titan is still up to inference, and not inherently sweeped under the rug by Isayama. The only main takeaway is that since we as readers KNOW the future, there must have been a detail in the plot that led Grisha to give Eren the titan. And it doesn't have to be "fate".
And in Eren's case (about knowing the Rumbling will happen), Eren didn't do the Rumbling BECAUSE he saw it. Eren still did it of his own free will. Eren still had his own personal reasons for wanting to do it. The logic is that through Eren's free will, he WOULD do the Rumbling, even if he didn't know the future. It's just that in a deterministic world with perfect predictors, Eren seeing the future MIGHT have caused a chain of events that made the future happen. But we don't know; because of determinism.
In conclusion, there is no contradiction in the determinism theory. Neither is it something inherently tied to fate. We only know that the timeline of AoT is set in stone (or else we'd see multiple timelines and such), and certain characters are potentially affected by future visions. Whether they are or aren't is up to interpretation.
Eren's contradictory actions:
The point about when Eren actually saw the full future and why he was still motivated to destroy the world despite knowing he'll lose made me stumble for a second. But there's a defence to be made here.
1: Despite Eren being in a state of "omnipotence" and sees the entire timeline in a jumbled mess, doesn't necessarily mean he can't be himself at the same time. The panel where he says "I'll destroy every one of my enemies" when The Rumbling arrives in Marley goes to show that Eren DOES still want to destroy the world. But everything that has happened in all of history can still be outside of his control, like making Dina eat his mom or letting the Alliance stop him. These are not contradictive.
2: It's fair to assume Eren obtained the full vision of the future when the Fouding Titan was activated. That's how the FT works. But as for Armin saying he obtained them when he kissed Historia's hand- keep in mind those are Armin's words. We don't know how much Eren is disclosing or how wrong Armin is. Even if there is bo clear answer here, it is still a bad faith interpretation to think there is only one real answer here.
3: Eren could want to destroy the world AND let himself be defeated at the same time. Eren DOES want to continue the Rumbling, or else he would've just stopped it. But it is also a valid interpretation that he DIDN'T want to stop his friends from defeating him. He himself would not want to dispose of them, and there might still be a part of him that wants to grant Paradis its redemption.
In conclusion: Yes, more work could have been done here. But all Odin has presented is the most negative interpretations possible, without being open to the fact there could be other interpretations.
Ending defenders vs ending defenders:
I found this argument extremely strange, and honestly disingenuous. As I stated earlier, AoT is a series that can have many different meanings extrapolated from. It's no wonder "Ending defenders" can have many different ideas about the series. That is a testament to how complex and rich AoT is as a series. As for ending haters: No. They do not have the same ideas about the ending. Try to imagine why there are MULTIPLE alternate fan endings to the series. They have different ideas too. Claiming that one side has contradictory ideas while the other hasn't is arrogant, sorry. And as Odin said in the beginning, that ending defenders have "Shash syndrome" where they think their fav series has no flaws is ridiculous, since I could reflect that argument towards haters as well: that they want so desperately to believe the ending is trash, that they deny any claim in defense being made. My point being: Engage in discussion. Use good argumentation. Regardless of what side you're on.
Fate in storytelling:
First of all: AoT is not about fate or destiny. I feel like I and Invaderzz have made that very clear. As for stories in general: A story which is tied to the theme of fate/destiny is not inherently better when it's extra character driven or have characters defy fate. This mindset does the concept injustice. Especially when Odin says that stories that are heavily tied to fate are only worthy by their ending and not their beginning and middle. Sure, JoJo and Berserk do these concepts well with how they do it, no matter how insignificant "fate" is in those stories. But let me recommend the Witcher series, which has most of its themes and worldbuilding heavily tied to fate (not so much characters or plot). The Witcher is not a series where you can just skip to the last book. You will fail to do the series justice.
Final notes:
Odin, you were good at showing extensive clips from Invaderzz's video to make your points. But your argumentation against them lacked the same amount of evidence that Invaderzz had. You continuously emitted statements and clarifications he made that substantiated his points, without using much evidence of your own. Most of your points consisted of you misunderstanding Invaderzz's approach or taking him out of context, and rambled on after completely missing the point. And your mindset of belittling "ending defenders" to steelmanning your points and making your position look undeniably stronger is borderline hilarious after evaluating the results. And you are defending 139 by using evidence from that chapter against defenders? From what I saw in this video, you did a hilariously poor job of it.
And if this a valid recommendation, please speak slower. It's hard to understand you sometimes.
TL:DR: Odin continuously interprets evidence from the series in bad faith, misunderstands Invaderzz's points, takes him out of context or omits information. He uses arguments that are either faulty or lacking substance, which makes the video fall apart. In addition, he makes his position of "ending hater" stronger by belittling ending defenders, which makes it funnier when he fails at it completely.
agreed
Actually Odin hating this video is a testament to how complex and Rich invaders video is
@@hankkingofmischief4372 ending haters get triggered by invaderzz video for some reason. And whenever they try to respond they usually make strawmans. Watch saintitchiefs response to invaderzz lol
The absolute state of 139 defenders, making headcanons about a video full of headcanons to defend said video.
@@hankkingofmischief4372 Yeah, the man knows how to come up with headcanons, he's very creative.
You don't seem to understand determinism, or at least don't explain it in a way that shows you understand it. The reason free will is questioned in a deterministic view of the world is that it functions on the notion that things are just meant to happen a certain way, including human choices. You seem to think that free will has anything to do with determinism or denying it but I think it's irrelevant. It's deterministic because Eren had prior knowledge of the future and chose to not try to subvert what he saw, he even participated in ensuring it happened exactly as it was supposed to. In a sense his free will to ensure what he saw led to exactly what he saw, hence determinism. He essentially guaranteed the future happening the only way it was supposed to which is why it's terrible writing. If isayama had given Eren conflicting visions and his choices led to the rumbling then that would've made it not deterministic and less shitty.