Thank you for the talk. A long-time Zen practitioner, the past few years I have started to wonder whether Zen misses out in emphasizing the teaching of emptiness more than the teaching of the four truths. An excellent article by a Thai Forest monk, Thanissaro Bikkhu, titled "The Far Shore," appeared in Tricycle Magazine in 2018 and shook me up. Seeking relief from suffering propelled me to Zen Buddhism, but it seems I chose a tradition that stresses emptiness. Ha!
While i do get the point, or the relative truth of the statement that "when you're suffering, you're doing something wrong" , or put differently, "suffering is pain X resistance", I really feel this needs to be put into perspective that the opposite is also true: because as sentient beings,and particularly as human beings, we're just wired for suffering, because the whole setup of our existence is fraught with insoluble contradictions and double-binds such as intellectually knowing that our personal survival is impossible (no one has lived forever so far) while at the same time being deeply compelled to continuously invest most part of our interest and intentional activities struggling hard to ensure exactly this: our personal survival on all levels (physical, emotional, social, motivational, spiritual,...)... So it's much deeper than just working on kind of deliberately dropping our resistance against pain (although this is surely a vital part of the practice). I mean, really overcoming suffering takes so much more than that -- and most of all a willingness to deeply LOOK and see and appreciate the fact that any escape -including all spiritual practices to somehow find a way to "overcome", "let go of", even " transcend" suffering - is totally impossible; and in that sense, no: you're not doing anything wrong when you're suffering. Rather, exactly when you finally see it is completely impossible to free yourself from it, you might be the closest to the truth you've ever been. And in that sense, it's a sense that you're doing everything RIGHT- because it puts you right on the spot, on the only spot that ever matters: where your experience is so deep and overwhelming that it is no longer possible to think of yourself and your suffering, or ANYTHING, as different. Because that's the only moment when the barrier melts away, and the impossible liberation might suddenly happen..
If I'm suffering then I'm doing it wrong.... Is it then wrong for me to feel the pain of empathy for others? Or the pain of growth through increased awareness, as I felt when I ate my first vegan meal this week that brought me closer to ending my part in the suffering of animals? Or the pain that comes from sitting longer in zazen and having deeper insight?
Sometimes people can't change their painful circumstances. Resisting that is suffering. Sometimes people "can" change their painful circumstances. Then people should resist rightfully. The third group of people is when someone is in a situation where it's not clear if you should resist or surrender to your pain. Should you keep fighting or give up? There is no clear cut formula.
@@rainydaycommenter8537 Resisting in Shinzen's formula does not mean resisting objective circumstances, it means resisting the pain you already experience on the level of nervous system
Can you talk about types of suffering? Buddha said life is suffering almost 2000 years ago. But suffering of a failed relationship is not the same as a more material type suffering like lets say poverty or not having enough to eat etc.
It's a good question, and hits to the heart of the matter. I like Olivier's reply up above, suffering = pain Xs resistance. The pain from a failed relationship & from poverty/starvation are of a different order. But pain and suffering are never conflated in Zen. They're different things. You could be in so much pain from starvation that you kill an innocent person for $ to buy food. That would be a suffering route. Or you could take another route with less overall suffering.
Thank you for the talk. A long-time Zen practitioner, the past few years I have started to wonder whether Zen misses out in emphasizing the teaching of emptiness more than the teaching of the four truths. An excellent article by a Thai Forest monk, Thanissaro Bikkhu, titled "The Far Shore," appeared in Tricycle Magazine in 2018 and shook me up. Seeking relief from suffering propelled me to Zen Buddhism, but it seems I chose a tradition that stresses emptiness. Ha!
Thank you, Shozan! this is the best one yet and good on Brad for the promo!
While i do get the point, or the relative truth of the statement that "when you're suffering, you're doing something wrong" , or put differently, "suffering is pain X resistance", I really feel this needs to be put into perspective that the opposite is also true: because as sentient beings,and particularly as human beings, we're just wired for suffering, because the whole setup of our existence is fraught with insoluble contradictions and double-binds such as intellectually knowing that our personal survival is impossible (no one has lived forever so far) while at the same time being deeply compelled to continuously invest most part of our interest and intentional activities struggling hard to ensure exactly this: our personal survival on all levels (physical, emotional, social, motivational, spiritual,...)... So it's much deeper than just working on kind of deliberately dropping our resistance against pain (although this is surely a vital part of the practice). I mean, really overcoming suffering takes so much more than that -- and most of all a willingness to deeply LOOK and see and appreciate the fact that any escape -including all spiritual practices to somehow find a way to "overcome", "let go of", even " transcend" suffering - is totally impossible; and in that sense, no: you're not doing anything wrong when you're suffering. Rather, exactly when you finally see it is completely impossible to free yourself from it, you might be the closest to the truth you've ever been. And in that sense, it's a sense that you're doing everything RIGHT- because it puts you right on the spot, on the only spot that ever matters: where your experience is so deep and overwhelming that it is no longer possible to think of yourself and your suffering, or ANYTHING, as different. Because that's the only moment when the barrier melts away, and the impossible liberation might suddenly happen..
Ok, good points!
All united in our self-centered delusions
Thank you for this!
My pleasure!
I read your book years ago and enjoyed it. Didn’t know you had a channel until Brad mentioned it. Your cool.
Welcome aboard! Thank you!
As someone who hasn't been vaccinated and is a Zen buddhist, I appreciated you calling me stupid. Just kidding. I didn't appreciate it.
Glad I found your RUclips channel, you and Brad Warner are my Zen go to guys ! Thanks for the content.
Thanks Marco, I'm glad you found it too. Thanks for the support.
Brad sent me. 👽
Life has suffering. Suzanne Stein street photographer.
Wise photographer!
If I'm suffering then I'm doing it wrong.... Is it then wrong for me to feel the pain of empathy for others? Or the pain of growth through increased awareness, as I felt when I ate my first vegan meal this week that brought me closer to ending my part in the suffering of animals? Or the pain that comes from sitting longer in zazen and having deeper insight?
These are pains you're talking about, though, not suffering. There's a difference. I'm talking about the "second dart" in Buddhism.
@ thanks for the clarification!
Hi!!! 👋🏻👋🏻👋🏻 I’m another one Brad sent! Enjoying your content very much. 🙏🏻
Thank you Jennifer!!
... is there any anger in Zen, or any Zen in anger?... that is my question...🤕🙉🙈🙊😁
Definitely. I'm angry right this very moment!! ;)
@@zenconfidential25 the whole world seems angry these days, even the weather...
@@writteninthesky Well put. The weather has every right to be angry!
I like Shinzen Young's equation: suffering = pain X resistance
Sometimes people can't change their painful circumstances. Resisting that is suffering. Sometimes people "can" change their painful circumstances. Then people should resist rightfully.
The third group of people is when someone is in a situation where it's not clear if you should resist or surrender to your pain. Should you keep fighting or give up? There is no clear cut formula.
@@rainydaycommenter8537 Exactly, well said
@@rainydaycommenter8537 Resisting in Shinzen's formula does not mean resisting objective circumstances, it means resisting the pain you already experience on the level of nervous system
Can you talk about types of suffering? Buddha said life is suffering almost 2000 years ago. But suffering of a failed relationship is not the same as a more material type suffering like lets say poverty or not having enough to eat etc.
It's a good question, and hits to the heart of the matter. I like Olivier's reply up above, suffering = pain Xs resistance. The pain from a failed relationship & from poverty/starvation are of a different order. But pain and suffering are never conflated in Zen. They're different things. You could be in so much pain from starvation that you kill an innocent person for $ to buy food. That would be a suffering route. Or you could take another route with less overall suffering.