Better Jet Alignment Through Elbows?
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- No increase in watt output was observed sadly.
Current bottlenecks:
-Still only a 12V DC system, the Midnite Classic doesn't like to PWM down to 12V from high input voltages.
-Input wires are now a limitation, amps are higher and the extension cord I'm using is only 16 gauge. I'm pusing 7 Amps through it which over the distance probably results in a noticable difference. I have 4 gauge aluminum wire to bury.
-Lots of windage from water in the housing, a Turgo will remedy most of this.
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We've come a very long way since the waterwheel, it's insane how good your system is now
Curious why you haven't used a Y fitting vs a T, Y fittings lose much less motive force when it comes to changing the direction of fluids. Binged your whole turbine series today - cant wait to see more!
wow! thats excellent progress! very well done joe 😊 im impressed!
at this rate you'll be powering the whole neighbourhood!!! lol
Interesting... When you went from the small diameter paddle wheel to the larger diameter paddle wheel you increased the amount of Torque but you kept the old Alternator. If you want more power out you need to replace the Alternator with a higher rated output requiring more torque. The larger the Diameter / Radius the more torque (ft/lb) for the same water pressure.
Hot water, as in almost boiling water will soften and expand the hose. Makes for easier assembly, and disassembly.
Hello Joe - nice setup! I think you will get better if you put a Y crossing that points slightly down in smooth curves! So you have less frictional losses
From the first time I saw your tri-clamp fittings I wondered if you might work in a dairy or a dairy supply company. For many years the only place you saw those fittings was in the dairy industry. They are a great way to go so that you have flexibility for experimentation.
Try dairy places use them, They are also very popular in the food industry as well, much of the commercial machines use items like this as they make for either quick work of cleaning and or redirecting to another machine, example one machine might pump x food and where another machine might pump a wrapped type food like raviolis while the same type of machines on the mixing or back end would do the same function for the front ends.
That was my same thought as well!
I've always called them milk line fittings.
@@farmerkjs6042 They are " Victaulic flanges " I believe.
Making huge progress Joe, congratulations!
There are apps for measuring how loud things are, I use NIOSH SLM. I’m in awe at how quiet your turbine is now compared to when you first rigged it up. Sounded more like a jet engine back then!
Awesome! I love the incremental improvements.
NAPA sells some nice T-bolt clamps that will work much better than the worm style you've got. They're stainless too.
Tri Clamp was news to me. I worked with an earlier version of it as dairy farm pipeline systems use the same connectors. Most of ours were wingnuts because they'd never be disturbed once in place, but there were a few we regularly had to reposition, mostly a transfer pipe to move it between going to the bulk tank or the wash vat, and a section in the front of the barn to get tractors in or out.
This is your passion...this is your calling... start a company that builds, installs, services, puts live web cams to show their operation and and offer financing with third party financing. Your future awaits...go and do.
Really great stuff man! Keep it up! You've really inspired me to build one of these some day when I have property that has a stream :)
The dream.
are they called Tri Clamp fittings because you need three hands to assemble ...... ;-)
Or at least three thumbs.
😂
For adjustment, I would consider some sort of double plate design with a square bung of about 2 inches square, This would allow for about 1 inch of play in either direction.
Plate one would have a large hole in the middle with some bolts and nuts that can me used to move the middle plate that has the large bung, the bung would be threaded all the way to allow you to connect you pipe connection on one side and your jet on the other side, Plate 3 would be your mounting plate that bolts to the stainless steel box, The inside and out side plate would have a section that is recessed down to allow the middle plate to move about 1 inch up, down and side ways while still being ridged enough to not have any slop in it. Pretty much this means if said design was indeed made could allow you to adjust it with ease with could be unbolted and added to another type of box as well. Provided your box is square and not have any rounded type edges. I think something like this could be made in cad pretty easy, The bolts would go in the none recessed part in a much larger part of the unit. I think this is this is the best description I can give. The nuts would be welded to the outside plate and a bolt thru it and a lock bolt on the other side, One can use extension nuts that are about 1 to 2 inches long to allow for great welds and flat and true adjustments. Something like this should be able to give you super fine adjustment if one were to use fine threads, one could even use hex machine bolts as well for use with hex wrench.
This was in the original plan, I will try to incorporate adjustment in the turgo design.
It's probably worth making the stainless version of the box circular so that you don't get water bouncing back off the flat edges and slowing it down. It might not make a huge difference but it's worth a go
hi joe, for jet alignment have you thought of using screws or something to align the jets, kind of a 4-jaw chuck alignment?
Yes
Perhaps a surround around the jet like how a mig welder has so splash back isnt effecting the water droplets from being disrupted
but to understand a nozzle you gain in pressure but lose velocity/gpm a bigger nozzle you lose pressure but gain velocity/gpm
an adjustable jet nozzle could be engineered similar to a jet aircraft nozzle to understand pipe friction you can push more water though a bigger pipe but a bigger pipe requires more gpm to catch up possibly depleting the reserve
once you have an adjustable nozzle you could use Arduino chip to make micro adjustments and control output and auto adjust pressure by setting input variables
but for now maybe rig up a lazer to site the jets perfectly to the spoons
a Y would be much better than a T type as a t or sharp bend like that would hamper flow a great deal as water has to stop and flow in a sharp 90 it also slows down the vekocity and pressure as water is a solid so as it hits that t part you would think the opposite but water moves fast but it moves like toothpaste in a tube a Y divides
a t reduces velocity as it has to "wait" on the water moving into the side out before water moves though the strait portion
something else may be possible is pulsed on and off with arduino a pulse would give possibly an increase in pressure as the pulsed could be alternating so that as a weight or "timing mark" could be used to pulse the jet as a certain mass hits the mark increasing acceleration
you likely would need to include a pressure/air chamber to cushion the water hammer from the pulses
the pulses could be timed for very fast or slower
I love the setup I like how you designed it im considering a water wheel or micro hydro like this perhaps energy could be stored in a centrifugal battery
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage
You still need to look into the tbolt clamps for the hose.
The voltage drop over your wires shouldn't be too bad based on some rough guesses. I'm getting only about 3% drop based on 3 phase AC, 86 volts (from previous video, though that may have changed with the new set-up), a 75 feet wire run, 6 amps (~500 watts) running through a 16 awg wire (best guess and worst case scenario) great job and awsome content, keep up the great work
You are spot on! I'll still be upsizing it in the future.
Good job on filming.
keep up the good stuff
Just an FYI It looks like you are losing some energy with a bit of water blowback in your square housing. If you made a conical shape inside to direct water away from your fins and down you could gain some wattage. Impressive project. Personally I would have another turbine available to run so you can generate power while the other is off. In an installation in hymalayas they had more money to work with but set up 6 turbines like yours mounted on their side and in their turbine room you could turn off any turbine while the others ran and they could stick in 4 more. Now they were supplying a town. As an engineer I look for ways to keep things operating because it might be your only source of power. If you stored more water at the top you could have a reserve as well in case you need it.
A propane torch on low and a rotating motion is your friend to loosen hoses on barbed fittings. Especially if she is just can't be cut any more. Just FYI.
Hi Joe, have you considered making a laminar flow adapter ? This may help with alignment as well.
You took a simple concept and made it complicated.
If you use two 45 deg elbows in series (inside the box) you can adjust the direction of the jet by setting the relative rotation of the elbows.
Hello!! love watching this kind of videos and i applaud using your knowledge to benefit yourself and others by recording it. I just have one question. What is the use of this turbine system? sorry for my ignorance i am trying to understand.
It produces power
Wouldn't it help to somehow fillet the inner corners of the housing. Seems it would minimize turbulence in there if it were rounded. The industrial housings seem to be all rounded on the inside.
Nice and smooth
Just watched the previous episode on this and commented on the triclamps, cool that people were interested in what they are. Are you worried at all that one of your outlets is infront of your pressure gauge? Kind of defeats the purpose of a pressure gauge.
Dear future joe, this hose has a near blowout in the next few months. And you do upgrade😉👍
Nice job! I follow all of your projects. As an electrical engineer I would suggest you install an electrical connection box and get rid of those wires only connected with WAGO connectors/clamps. They are great for temporary connections but if you push high amps through your cables they might not be the best pick.
What wire gauge are you using now, which conducting material (copper or alloy) and how long are your cables?
I would guess 12ga extension cord, atleast 100ft long.
I think he would be much better off using a twist-loc cord ends as a means of disconnect.
How is the power output with the elbows?
Yeah, I was thinking that long radius bends would be better. And if some way to avoid the TEE.
instead of making the small housing surrounding the turbine why not just make metal support members spanning across inside of the blocks to support the generator ? This way the water could be flung outward away from the turbine with less chance of bouncing back . You could add a plate cover across the top of the support members to have separation between the wet part and dry part of the alternator .You could also make brackets with nipples welded on attached to the same support members to hold the nozzles at the proper alignment angle. You could use a cheap laser pointer aimed at the turbine for precise positioning of the nipples the nozzles thread onto. The spent water would still drain out of the bottom of your tailrace .
As already pointed out a "Y" splitter fitting of the main feed pipe would give you superior flow to the nozzles .
you should look into just getting a manifold of those fittings and mounting it to the block inside the hutch. and you really should put a high point with a bleeder to collect and vent air that gets trapped.
I couldn't read the gauge, how many PSI are the jets running at? And thanks for posting and posting the links for the parts! Keep up the good work!
That t-piece for the 2nd jet is killing your efficiency. The only pressure that's seeing is backpressure from the primary jet. Connect the 2nd jet back to the first so there's a loop, that will even out the pressure between them, or at least switch to a Y-split. Ideally, you'd build a large-diameter loop around the perimeter and use street elbows off it to the jets, the longer the water flows in the small-diameter bent pipe, the lower your pressure will be.
The angle of the nozzle against the shovel must be essential. Another thing: The horizontal turbine wheel is not perfect. When the water meet the middle of a Pelton shovel, it directs the water backwards to both sides of the turbine wheel. That means , one part of the water is going downwards, as it should, but the other part is going up and the falling down on the wheel and disturbing the rotation.
Answer: Rebuilt the set-up of the turbine wheel to vertical position. (Yes, I am no fun)
I suspect that the position and the size of water jets is not optimal. Rebuilt the water jet attachment, so you can make fine adjustments vertical and horizontal of the water to get a perfect aim, and the Pelton principle will work better.
I steered away from that orientation to keep the water out of the generator bearings.
Awesome vid.. question are you paying for your water.. or is that some kind of capture system?
Looks like the short pipe became deformed when you installed it. Probably better to try to keep the pipe straight or replace it with a non-flexible pipe for higher throughput.
here is a thought, you are losing IMO efficiency in the corners in the box itself, i would make a round enclosure or some ramps vertical to the flow to adjust the loss of pressure or to streamline the flow rate. just looking from a far away, id do those things, discard my comment if im wrong, cheers!
Very nice
Big difference in noise.
Interesting, do you lose energy in the flow as it comes around that elbow? My intuition makes me think it would get slowed by a sharp bend like that and lose some of the potential generating power
Would most of the jet velocity be coming from the pressure + nozzle, rather than the flow speed in the pipe? I'd think so.
@@BooMeringue1 Sure but the velocity of the water plays a part in the amount of pressure so loss in velocity = loss of pressure. Now whether or not it's significant is a whole other thing. It may very well be too small a difference to matter but I'm curious if he could calculate the loss/gain in generation capability with different configurations of fittings at the turbine housing
Here Kris tried to see if it made a difference ruclips.net/video/iyJQCpecUz4/видео.html
A heat gun will soften that vinyl hose and make it easy to add and remove those fittings.
Maybe no improved power but looks super nice and quite - good job! Have you started using the power for the normal household and seeing some savings from all the effort?
I keep it loaded with some resistive loads to heat my insulated workshop
@@JoeMalovich Great - and thank you for keeping us entertained with smart content during our corona insulation.
Might you get better water velocity with less turbulence if you turned the white box 45° to the left? I was wondering how much it would increase the velocity and decrease the turbulence if the water pipes could come straight in from the corners where there’s more distance they have the pipes run straight into the turbine in a straight line.
Did it help with the efficency ? How much power do you get from it after this improvement ?
Very nice job and this gives a lot of ideas ! Thanks.
How about maintenance ? How long before a need to replace the main parts ?
I didn't notice a change in efficiency. It's much quieter which is really nice.
I haven't noticed much wear, my source of water is pretty clean. The bearings and seals will go before the spoons.
hey dude make the containment box for the turbine rounder, less energy loss from the water hitting the walls and sharp edges!!!
I know tri clamps all to well spent 40 years in the food industry sanitary welding thin wall stainless tubing ; )
Are you still setup to weld it? My 90 degree tee fittings aren't ideal and so I need a manifold with 45 degree branches on one side. I was going to try my hand at it but I'm still a rookie at welding.
@@JoeMalovich Sorry I am retired and my eyes are not up to it now. Look up TIG welding here on you tube.
And get some scrap to practice on. Good luck
Where does your water come from and what head do you have at the pellen wheel. very simply set up thanks
Isn't there a decrease in efficiency if you have hard right angled bends vs bends with large radii?
I did not notice any
@@JoeMalovich I just did the math based on numbers from earlier videos, the drop was around 6.81 mbar, so 0.00681 bar. Which should not be a measurable difference.
Only if he was using the full flow of the ID of the pipe and hose. He is using the pressure and not the volume as the nozzle is about an 1/8th inch opening.
I ran the numbers on our first picohydro generator, and almost all of the head loss in our plumbing was in the last fraction of an inch, where we were using a brass reduction fitting as a nozzle. I haven't watched all your videos, so I don't know if you've gone over the details of your nozzles. They look nicely tapered. If there is any significant length at the smallest diameter, that's where your head loss will be. As that length approaches zero, any head loss in the nozzle will drop off dramatically.
@@JoeMalovich www.pondtrademag.com/do-different-pvc-fittings-really-make-a-difference-in-water-flow/
They found 12% Difference Joe?
The headphone is not that bad I dropped my chrome book in my dentist sink yesterday and it got all wet, still works pretty good, it has one of those auto water on faucets...
It still works fine. I've sent cheap earbuds through the laundry without harm too.
Aren't those cups designed to deflect the water backwards, so it absorbs the maximum kinetic energy?
Hi Joe ever tried a screen to brake the splash back/vortex in the areas where tis is seen the screen will alow water passing through some atleast.... Sort of a baffel?!?!
Brilliant job👌what’s the head
Boiling hot water helps soften the hose...
Hi Joe, what made your system run more quietly, was it the elbows or better jet nozzle position?
good one
Thanks for the great videos :)
What do you think your current bottleneck in power production is? Is it those wires? "Any improvements made anywhere besides the bottleneck are an illusion." - Gene Kim, The Phoenix Project
I think it's many things at this point. Turgo will solve some of them, 48v batteries others.
How about a cylindrical housing would that change anything?
I like what I see here but how much water is being used for this? What is the water source? If you’re using a pump to create the pressure, what is the difference in energy cost to energy production?
Gravity fed from a spring up the hill. About 30 gpm
Where can I buy this kind of turbine..
And what is the pressure you have used in this system... 😊 thanks from syria
instead of a square box make a circluar one to reduce cavitation.
Can you increase the diameter of the orifice in your spray nozzles? even just 3~4 mm would increase the mass of the moving water substantially
whats the flow rate pm?
I know it isn't really a relevant question, but what kind of headphones were those that fell in the box
THINK ABOUT CRANKSHAFT WINDAGE IN A HIGH PERFORMANCE ENGINE ! THE WATER SPLASHBACK IS ROBBING YOU OF SOME EFFICIENCY ! MAYBE IF THE BOX WAS WIDER THE WATER WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO BOUNCE BACK AT THE ROTOR?
I dont know much about hydraulics, but i was thinking about the T splitter pipe which splits the single hose to 2 going to the turbine. What if you used a Y splitter? Would that make flow more efficient?
Also very interesting videos. I love them
They don't make wye fittings in this style for cheap. I might in the future try welding one up.
@@JoeMalovich Ah i expected that issue... Would love to see one in the future
@@JoeMalovich What about something like these? www.beveragecraft.com/y-fittings/
Too small, still have sharp 90s.
Logically i think the elbows are worse than the bending hose, primarily because the elbow makes tighter bends, smaller radius bends.
If you did another housing would you make it about 2-3 feet larger so you can kneel down and work in front of you rather than stooping over and working below you? I can’t remember if you said in a prior vid - What is the sizing of this hut 3x3x2 feet? That hose - new nozzle??
This pit is 5'x5', it's really a good size. Maybe another 6" would have been ideal. I'm happy with it.
Joe Malovich as long as you’re happy with it, is all that matters. I was wondered if you would do something larger next time as you look a little cramped at times. 6x6 would give ample working space and a large turbine :D I know gopros perspective makes things look different to reality (I ride men bikes and some stuff on go pro is easy steeper than it appears).
warm up the hose to make it easier to get on/off
How did you rectify your 3 phase output?
Have you timed it to see what RPM it is turning?
What is the exact type of motor/generator is used? And can you tell us the specifications of the motor/generator?
links in the description.
After all them upgrades ya need bigger motor now lol
Hellow,turbine model??
Sanitary fittings are mostly used by the dairy industry
Those jets are humming! How much head do you have to get this much pressure?
275 feet
those elbows will cause more resistance and slow down your flow, no?
Shorter hoses produce less friction, so less loss. Also the better jet alignment should improve power output. Noise = lost energy so having the jets in better alignment that makes less noise should make more power.
iirc he's relying more on the pressure and not flow rate as much; a 1/8" nozzle is gonna cut flow much more than an elbow ever could!
@@scrambledmandible Maybe, just basing that thought on all the main water lines I have laid while working for a utility company that were designed by engineers. They stayed away from 90's and used sweeping directional pipe instead. The coefficient of friction of a 90 is very high according to the engineers anyway.
I want to get in touch with you. You can help me make a turbine for this to install in the Argentine patsgonia. I congratulate you on your work, greetings Juan Jose
Sure thing, my email is malovich@gmail.com
Are those Cowin headphone?
E7
@@JoeMalovich thought so I have the same pair
Wow 500 Watts
11:38 said by Jesus while practicing at home
500w under what load?
Under ideal load from the mppt controller
How much head are we dealing with here ?
Sorry , new here
Do not recall exactly, Its like 1000 feet give or take...
275 feet
My biggest number is the pipe length at 760 feet.
RIP Headphones and hinges...
^.^
Oh my God! Gravity just happened...!
Where are you getting your water from and how are you putting pressure on that line
How many gallons per hour is required to run this setup? Here it's 1 cent per 8 gallons of water to break even for the output I would need to use 97.52 gallons per hour at the cost of 12.19 cents per kw/h. So, if the setup does 1/2 kw/h my max g/h would be 48.76. So, I would see about something of around 30-35 g/h.
AT THE 8 MINUTE AND 16 SECOND MARK OF YOUR VIDEO IS EXACTLY WHEN YOU NEED A CLAMPTITE ! YOU COULD HAVE MADE A PERMANENT HOSE CLAMP EVEN WITH A LOOSEY GOOSEY PIPE !
P.S. I HAVE NO AFFILIATION TO CLAMPTITE !
by having the water deflecting back your are getting the most out of your jet hitting the impeller your don't want it to hit flat. when it hit a flat surface you lose energy when you hit just inside of the cup and the water get redirected back it acts as a jet pushing the impeller forward and increasing your output force by about 30%. you can test this by using a bowel attached to a 2 by 4 board about 3ft long using a hose hit a flat spot on the board and then the bowel hope this makes scene i seen this on someone else's youtube Chanel at 1:27 of his video hope this helps you ruclips.net/video/S6oNxckjEiE/видео.html
Also, that tackling of your screwdriver means that it is as strong screwed together. If you go further screwing it, you damage your screwdriver really bad. So please don't do that again.
Sander Den Hollander it looks like he uses a „schlagschrauber“ i dont know the english word (the one you use on your car wheels) , this thing is built to do that
@@benediktdotter4039 impact wrench.
dan cobar thats the word 👍🏻
Don't show people how you are about to stab yourself with a screwdriver...
Fajne własna mini elektrownia. ( goomle.cba.pl )
Thumbs down for shaky-vision