Mate, you've got no sense of adventure and no spontaneity. And at the risk of offending you, you sound like you might be a bit of a control freak. It's 2023, aren't we supposed to respect the garage door's choice to remain open or closed? Should we judge it on that basis?
As a safety and risk engineer, everything u said is correct. Everyone is too scared to address these real issues incase they are viewed as anti ev. This could be a future asbestos mass lawsuit in my opinion. Thanks for bringing this up. Everyone needs to know the risks.
Why would anyone be afraid of being viewed as anti EV? I'm as anti EV as it's possible to get. If something is bad, and EVs most definitely are, is there some reason why you shouldn't be opposed to it? Idiots like that are one of the main reasons EVs exist in the first place. It is the job of everyone who knows the truth to let people know just how worthless, dangerous, and environmentally damaging EVs actually are. Quit covering things up. Be PROUD of being anti EV. You might just save the world.
If it were, why hasn't the same happened to anything else with lithium ion? All lithium ion has the same chance of failure with nearly everyone carrying a phone, many people and companies use laptops instead of desktops, all industries use portable radios, etc. The EV is just more prominent as its bigger so the fire is more blatant and they have more cells in them. The statistics still show EVs are 60 times less likely to catch fire than ICE ND 130 times less than hybrids. The main issue is that EVs are nearly impossible to put out when they do catch fire. The news just loves to spin things the way they want.
I visited a friend in Sydney recently. We parked in an underground parking structure in Haymarket to have lunch at Darling Harbour. All of your messaging about the potential hazards of charging EV's in enclosed speces came flooding back as I looked at 6 Teslas all recharging in the dedicated charging bays grouped together in this underground space. As we walked to the exit we couldn't help but notice that there was only one way out that wouldn't be cut off by a fire, if it were to occur, and no way to avoid the smoke. No warnings were posted anywhere near the charging bays pertaining to particular emergency measures. These are just my observations. Please, no pro-EV trolls.
Good point. The Novotel Wilson car park in Chinatown, Sydney, has a dedicated bay right in front of the lifts, I have noted there are stairs leading down to ground so will be very mindful where to run if smoke ever billows out from an EV.
Like many tragedies in history, things will only change after a disaster or serious accident before governments realise they need to do more in managing hazards and risks as new technologies are introduced and existing infrastructures aren't designed or equipped to cope. Battling one EV fire is bad enough let alone six EVs grouped together. It will ultimately come down to how diligent the carpark operator is in managing the risks. Another issue is the increasing weight of vehicles given EVs are much heavier. Although this pales into comparison with the risk of battery fires.
Why would you think that anyone pro-EV was a troll? Anyway, EV owner of 5 years and 90,000 km here and of course I am interested in safety as everyone should be. The data shows that your petrol powered car is 25 times more likely to burst into flames than an EV and the biggest cause of fires in car parks is petrol theft. So should there be warning signs for each petrol car too? Bear in mind that at any one time there are very few if any people in an underground or multi-story car park. I am sure the owners of the car park meet all of the city regulations.
Tesla battery management Is designed against things going crazy thermally I’d suggest that they might have a better track record on the fire hazard front than most . We know about the problems that General Motors have had with their cheaper Electric Cars … those are best parked in a safe space with nothing important above them …
I was in a shopping centre carpark at Top Ryde Sydney about 10 hours ago. Two cars a Tesla and a BYD were charging in the second basement car park . There are 3 basement levels and about 10 above ground. No warning signs at all, no pressurised escape routes. One car was fully charged and was still there when I left 4 hours later. It also occurred to me that carparks are full of those 'short' steel speed humps, the ones that give your car and your battery a good jolt, even at low speeds. It would be interesting to know what damage can occur to a battery when it has been over "its annual quota " of speed humps. Noted that this incident involved an NCM chemistry battery but there is also minimal information on the allegedly safer batteries that have replaced them. The information black hole is the most disturbing problem of all, and as an EV owner I think that this lack of information has to be sorted out. Quickly.
I'm actually a security guard at a shopping centre, we have 6 monthly fire training and there's still no mention of procedures for EV fires or risk. Even my security firm which handles about 100 centres doesn't have a procedure. Our security buggys are lithium powered and so is the cleaning equipment, the smell those two units produce during charging is worrying.
@@Grant82gc also vapour released from EV car batteries can ignite. Someone garages exploded caught on camera on yt. Caused by VAPOUR. You know how even in normal zinc AA batteries YOU GET LEAKAGE? A bit like that except its multiplied 2000 batteries. 2000 Imagine your house going down in flames and you being homeless or burned beyond recognition or having your outer skin burned. Imagine.
I have a charging unit fixed externally with free energy from solar panels. Charging of the vehicle takes place in the open. The vehicle incurs high mileage and is used commercially for pick up/delivery of specialised small items in an urban area. It is quiet, clean, and very cheap, and I suspect I might know its values and limitations reasonably well. @@esecallum
John, You are absolutely right. I worked in engineering design and in particular, the petrochem industry, for almost 50 years and, as you know, we have thousands and thousands of regulations and guides / standards to ensure safest possible operations. Low probability - high consequence events have really been studied over and over again to minimise risks. All you are very reasonably asking for is the same due diligence regarding ev battery risks. This is becoming ever more important as more and more ev's are rolled. Thanks for your good work. Let's prevent reasonably foreseable bad events.
I would guess many people would actually move closer to the smoking vehicle so they could extinguish the fire or prevent a fire if they catch the smoke just appearing.
@@AutoExpertJC The main problem is how difficult they are to extinguish set against a ICE vehicle , having seen a standard vehicle fire when the fire brigade arrived they had the fire out in seconds . This just doesn’t happen with EVs , in fact they tend to carry on unchecked so will tend to consume every thing around them . And even reignite when it’s assumed they are safe , sorry but I think you’re being to kind on the industry . The potential for these vehicles to be the source of a major disaster , is totally unacceptable and should be addressed immediately . Kind regards 👍
I just retired after 40 years in the fire service. The senior officers aren’t game to say what they would like to say about EV safety due to them being beholden to their net zero evangelist masters. There needs to be some standards adopted for ventilation, smoke alarms, fire walls or other separation into the building code. Fail safe mechanisms in EVs and EV chargers also need to be improved to talk to battery BMS and shut down prior to thermal runaway
The big difference with ICE is that risks can be managed with proper maintenance. If you can smell fuel or have wiring that is shorting out, you really need to do something about it. The real danger for batteries is that they tend to go poopy-ina-pants in unexpected and invisible ways. On the one hand ICE gives you some warning about problems which are hard to ignore (unless you are an idiot), and on the other batteries can seriously bite you no matter how smart you are or how good you are with charging and maintenance. It only takes one little defect in one of the thousands of cells in an EV to be a ticking time bomb. Hands up those who think manufactures will have a 100% perfect record going forward? Even if they do their job properly, the dendritic growth problem John talks about is real and is caused by discharging the cells. There are no guarantees that being careful about discharging the batteries is going to save you, because it's impossible to monitor every cell in an EV battery or do proper balanced charging. If EV battery problems follow the usual pattern for Lithium cells, the greatest periods of danger are when the battery is being charged or immediately after when it is first put back into service. John is 1000% correct in saying that vehicles should not be charged inside your house. I'll go even further and say you should probably convert that garage into a tool room or workshop. Forget about storing your EV in there.
@@jeffk464 Gasoline needs between a 6:1 and 20:1 fuel/air ratio to sustain combustion. Since gasoline fumes are heavier than air, they tend to take quite a bit of time to build up to the point they can "reach" a source of ignition higher up. In many unheated garages, the fumes tend to harmlessly "leak" out under the doors unless the amount spilled is significant.
Idiotic... In your house you probably have at least a half dozen devices with the same chemistry batteries including power tools, laptops, smart phones and so forth and if you are like most people you've never experienced a fire. Batteries are safe and arent 'ticking time bombs' or whatever the hyperbolic crowd says... Heck Lithium batteries are used in avaiation and we arent getting mass reports of fires aboard airplanes these days either.
Insurance (home) compnies will soon be banning charging EV's in integral garages - some are already insisting your EV is parked 20m from your house if your property is a great fire risk (wood construction, thatched roof etc). This will spread and be a common restriction soon enough.
@@esecallum Indeed,I can't see to be honest how it's going to work once EV ownership gets to maybe 30% + . But those who pray to the church of EV can't see it ...
@@paulnewman9275 Range anxiety. stuck in a traffic jam? bp goes thru the roof. as your charge keeps dropping. charge trucks wont get to you due to jam ! cant keep it near the house. insurance premiums sky high.
I'm waiting to see how long it will take for insurance companies to not insure your property, if you charge an ev within a certain distance if that property.
Expect laws to protect the EV manufacturers. Something like "We must all share the risk for the greater good". Translation, politicians own the stock and took the payoffs.
@@zoltanrudolfIt's not so much a change in policy as acceptance that private purchasers won't buy them. Or maybe EV's are self identifying as ICE's. Whatever, it is government bungling where they have no competence.
Few months ago, one EV caught fire in Munich (at least what I heard) in parking garage. The black smoke literally clouded the entire area. I was not near that smoke but I could smell that horrible stench. It was pinching my vocal cords and lungs. This thing is cancerous. And the worse problem is once it get lit, you cannot put it down that easily. Firefighters were literally waiting for this to burn out..., to put down what is left to our down.
As a HV technician I had to do diagnose some batteries that were faulty, most times it starts with something very minor, and the BMS detects it and don’t let the contactors close. I won’t believe on a scenario that the battery was damage and you will be able to drive. Any unbalance, difference of temperature or insolation values is easily detected by the BMS. It’s no impossible to happen, just can’t see it happening someone making damage and being able to drive away, at least with the systems I have been working.
Here in Perth, Karrinyup shopping center has 4 EV charging stations all tucked away in the corner of one of the underground carparks where they have the Sunday morning flea markets. The center has recently undergone redevelopment which also incorporates residential apartments. I would assume there are additional EV charging stations in the other underground carparks.
I recall that Chermside Westfield in Brisbane has installed the EV charges in the base of the lowest carparks right in the a far corner of the Pink Carpark - just as a warning to people not wanting to park near EV charging stations at that specific shopping centre. I can't speak for other shopping centres in the Greater Brisbane area. But keep your eye out.
I had a 44 gallon drum of fuel blow up in a panel beaters shop when we went to a fire in the 80’s and the factory’s roller door blew out. The door was much bigger but the explosion here looked of a similar size. P.S sources of ignition can be a beer fridge, a battery charger or other electric device. Static electricity can be produced by one fluid travelling across air etc like clouds making lightning. That’s why they earth petrol tankers delivering fuel.
@@Inisfad not real smart are you. As water is heavier than petrol therefore slips down permitting the petrol to rise to the surface and continue to burn. Besides, the existing temperature is so high that the water poured on the fire evaporates even before it can extinguisher the fire. The latter is true if small quantity water is poured. Thus the petrol fire cannot be extinguished by water.
Just looking at the risk factors, it's very unusual for anyone to regularly refuel an ICE car in a garage or enclosed space, most normal people would open the door for the short time that they did for example, remove a fuel tank or something similar. If it becomes the normal thing to leave cars plugged in overnight, this is increasingly likely to happen! Easy solution is "refuel" outside, being charged seems to link most cases.
I was in Barcelona a few weeks ago, EV caused evacuation of a hotel underground car park just up the road from ours.Smoke pouring from it and coming up through the entry/exit ramps - luckily it didn't develop into a full blown thermal runaway fire but next time who knows.
With reference to your multistorey car parking for EV's there could be a bigger problem with that .IF the multistorey car park is old the structure might not be good enough to hold up the weight of these EV's - here in the UK a lot of multistorey car parks have banned EV's going any higher than ground floor because the car park could collapse purely of the enormous weight of multiple EV's charging in them.
@@AutoExpertJC Haven't you heard about the UK's problem with foamed concrete? they are closing hundreds of schools built with it because the concrete is crumbling and ceilings are falling down. It is commonly referred to as “crumbling concrete” and described as “80 percent air”. It has also been nicknamed Aero Bar, a popular chocolate bar that contains pockets of air. RAAC has been assessed to put buildings at risk of collapse after exceeding its 30-year lifespan.
We've had quite a few news reports regarding cheap arse chinese scooters bursting into flames in peoples houses over here. It's only a matter of time before the whole thing gets out of control as EV numbers increase.
Wait till more of the Chinese EV's arrive in other countries across the globe. Already Mings Garage are selling loads (via business hire fleets) of their new EV's and Burn Your Dreams BYD are also about to launch their new hot cars 🔥
You bring a series of very important points home regarding the obvious problem that a lot of EV batteries develop. Thanks for the info , you need to be heard by a lot more people!
A lot of EV batteries develop. How many is a lot? What percentage of EV batteries per year or per 100K miles driven? What is the obvious problem? EV batteries are sealed and emit no gases while charging (unlike lead acid incidentally). I am pleased this guy is an expert on battery chemistry though and not some youtuber-expert. That is good to know.
My petrol car does not catch fire in a car park. I don’t fill my car with petrol in a car park but in a petrol station I was always taught don’t leave batteries of any kind charging after they are fully charged as this may cause a fire.
Thanks John, your info about safety and the real carbon implications of EVs has been useful for informing others. Also, God help us when the day comes when a car parking building full of EVs goes up!
Totally agree John. All charging should be outside. I note that Malaysia were moving to make basement charging illegal in shopping centers and apartments. Not sure where that has wound up to date.
Yet another great video, and another reason to park 500m away from any EV charging station. Since I found you Jon I've started re-parking when I realise I've pulled in beside an EV.
Cheers John, All of this information about EV's and lithium batteries in general has changed the way I think about these batteries now. I don't own an EV and to be honest I don't plan to for some time as I share your concerns in relation to surrounding countermeasures and battery disposal etc. However, due to your videos I now try to be much safer with my lithium batteries in my home that I have in countless devices.
I have used Milwaukee electric battery tools thru my building and carpentry works, I bought the gardening tools and the big 12amp hour batteries. When you charge them they certainly put of a concerning smell, and a pinkish powdery material present around the terminals of both charger and batteries.
The battery is not a tight fit when installed in the tool. It vibrates in the housing while you run the tool, like a trimmer. This chafes the plastic. The Milwaukee battery has some kind of a 'brain' circuit board in it. I assume it is doing some sort of cell monitoring. Not like a dumb old Nicad battery pack.
@tripplefives1402 Yup, it makes one think of whereabouts on your property would you plan to have the fire. Funny thing, my alarm system control panel recently had a swollen lithium backup battery. The headline would read "Cause of fire: alarm system."
Not the least surprising is the deafening silence on this topic on ANY of the EV specific RUclips channels around the net. Funny that! Well done on your balanced coverage!
This highlights another huge difference between the 'modes' of EV and ICE fires - the unpredictability of the former. They can just 'decide' to go up sitting quiescently, sometimes even when not charging. 99.9% of of ICE fires (at a guess) occur _while they are attended,_ at the very least with their ignition on (electrics thus capable of generating a spark) or actually running (hot engine components)
The argument that EV's catch fire less often than ICE vehicles is irrelevant: governments globally are pressing for ICE vehicles to be phas 18:44 ed out. After which it will be 100% EV fires, so you're correct, authorities must be looking at solutions rapidly.
If the future wasn't dark enough. The prospect of a world filled with EV's is looming. In my 60 plus years I have never given a thought to parking next to another car. Or being in an enclosed area with one. Unless it was a Triumph Stag. They had a reputation. But now if I see plugged in cars I will be parking elsewhere. And the numbers will only increase.
Thanks, yes my list of perceived regulatory requirements is growing. Now we have to make sure every EV is sold with a Safety Data Sheet (SDS) listing all toxins and PPE requirements in the case of a thermal runaway. Furthermore I would like some sort of black box in the vehicle to save all the sensor data of the last day 10 seconds prior to a catastrophic collision so that all parties besides the manufacturers have the evidence to determine the true cause. I was in Texas recently and the motorways are littered with shredded tyres and stones that regularly impact windscreens etc and it is not hard to imagine the future of semis, cybertrucks, EV vans and SUVs being regularly hammered by flying debris.
Was at Box Hill Hospital today parking on 2 levels in basement. From the bottom of ramp at B2, there would be about 20 ev charging points for the fleet cars. It would be almost impossible to pass if one of these cars caught fire.
A home in suburban Pittsburgh, Pa was blown to bits this past August. Unfortunately, six people died. The neighbor’s security camera footage of the explosion is incredible. I wondered if an EV explosion was the cause. But I think it was due to a natural gas leak.
With the recent car carrier ship incident plus all these other incidents its very worrying. At this point it would be safer to buy a lead acid battery fitted golf cart to commute around a town and city rather than a unpredictable lithium ion battery fitted huge EV.
Thanks for keeping us aware of EV risks John! But what about your Bluetti battery pack? Have you put it somewhere safe in case this goes poopie in its trousers?
Different chemistry being LifeP04, they don't contain cobalt and are less likely to self destruct when in thermal runaway. Tesla Powerwall on the other hand contains thousands of Li-ion batteries and are usually Installed in the garage.
Some shopping malls in Poland already banned the EVs from underground carparks. I just came back from holidays there and the number of EVs on the roads is quite large. This might be the reason why someone started thinking about the potential toxic fire issue. Another thing is, make and model choice is huge, when compared with Australia.
I've been screaming about EVs being a fire hazard to your family and home and the democrat party is demanding you bring home! Remember you you voted for this!
We went to Gunwharf Quays shopping centre in Portsmouth UK, as we drove into the underground car park I noticed about 20 EV charging bays on the left and another 20 or so to the left, these were the first bays in the car park by the entry/ exit road. Not very clever I parked right by the escalator to outside. The sad thing is there’s another deck below which has to exit by these bays thus trapping about 900 cars in a confined space, not clever at all.
This guy is 💯 right! Australia and is she will be right attitude. Watch this space as the EV population gets bigger so will the danger! I myself work in the explosive industry and I see this attitude all the time.
He is right. And there seems to be one particular battery chemistry which is more given to exploding than others. I am sure that insurance companies have the data.
@@giddyurp I don't think so. Even if a lead acid battery does catch fire (and I have never heard of that happening), it can be extinguished in the usual way - by depriving the fire of oxygen. The lithium batteries come with their own oxygen supply built in. You just can't put them out !
@@paulsutton5896Lead acid does explode. It's very rare, and is caused by the battery being overcharged with really high current I believe, and we are talking about really small amounts of hydrogen, so nothing like what a lithium battery does. Lead acid is remarkably safe, especially some of the newer designs.
@@paulsutton5896 you should go and read the safety label on a lead acid battery. They all say ensure they are charged in a well ventilated area. You don't get to put a hydrogen fire out because it just goes bang all at once.
@@giddyurp Yes. Hydrogen is flammable. It also dissipates readily, making is way quickly upwards, out of the way of any sources of ignition. We have been using this type of battery for well over 100 years. Is it purely by good luck that we never hear of a lead-acid battery fire? Yet the relatively new technology of lithium batteries seem to "go off" regularly. Eight people dead in UK since 2018 - trying to charge their bicycles !!!!. Six battery fires per day in China, where the ev is commonplace. Very awkward in car parks and tunnels and so forth. This is a problem which needs to be adressed.
Hi John, I should have written this first since it speaks directly to your question and it is also something that I think should be higher on the priority list. Most people do not understand the various battery chemistries and probably think that "lithium ion" is all the same thing when it is not. There is no legislation or even discussions about using safe chemistry from any governing body anywhere as far as I'm aware. Most places are pushing the switch to EVs quite forcefully, which will probably mean cheaper higher density chemistries like lithium cobalt will be used by those companies trying to win the range and price wars that will happen. We should be using safer battery chemistries. Tesla and I think most European manufacturers use lithium manganese or hybrid chemistries rather than the much more dangerous lithium cobalt, however looking at the Fremantle Highway I have to wonder if this is actually the case. It certainly looks like a lot of cars in China are running lithium cobalt battery packs and I think they have a problem, but it's pretty hard to get figures out of China. We usually only find out from videos posted to social media and those are likely to be rare. LiFePO is safer even than lithium hybrid chemistry, however the problem with alternate chemistries is that the energy density goes down the further you get from lithium cobalt chemistry. I think the energy density is low enough that sodium ion batteries look pretty good, and at this point it seems likely that they are even safer. There's not much data on that technology yet though. LiFePO is also lower voltage, being 3.2V nominal instead of 3.7V. So yes, I think discussions around battery chemistry are pretty important and LiFePO seems to be one answer, even if it does not give the ultimate range that everyone seems to want it's probably better suited to light vehicle transport. It does mean that the various governments are going to have to relax their stance on "no ICE by 2030" or whatever mandates they come up with. They would be better off mandating for safer battery chemistries.
As an engineer John. Could you do the numbers on what type of pressures a vessel would have to be designed to to contain a TR or Vapor outgassing of a lithium ion battery to be self contained?
- Someone from Mclaren should be able to answer that - Rich Rebuilds demonstrated a P1 battery which internally combusted (A123 LFP cells from a bygone era) probably will get "no comment" from the big M.
Trying to make a pressure vessel to contain a thermal runaway is tricky. Venting and cooling (to reduce quasi static pressures and chance of runaway in first place) is likely more productive strategy. I hear John implying using roof space rather than basement? These EVs are way heavier than necessary so the number should be limited to avoid overloading structure. Nuclear weapons are designed to only detonate the conventional explosives if they are in a pool fire - ok they might spread fissile material and not make that place too habitable but they shouldn't wipe out a city. Maybe some weapons designers should look into making EVs safer?
@@stephenhookings1985 your standard Tesla model 3 is 200kg heavier than a Camry. Which still makes it 500kg lighter than a ford ranger and over a ton lighter than a Toyota Land Cruiser. This whole EVs are going to cause car parks to fail is bullshit
Maybe a law that says anyone operating a tunnel must have a vehicle ready to shove a burning vehicle out of the tunnel ASAP.. and if that means a water curtain, breathing apparatus etc for the driver of said vehicle...so be it. Interesting if the EV was a fully laden passenger bus...
But the Electric Viking just posted a video recently, saying that there's new EV battery technology that will surely kill off the ICE cars for sure in short time.... What the heck are we going to do??! We're doomed!!😅
There was a video of someone taking a scooter into a lift in Asia somewhere. The battery cooked off in the lift. Can you imagine that, being stuck in a small space, less than a couple of square metres, and you can not exit until it gets to the next floor
It's worth emphasizing one of John's points that Low Probability is not equal to Low Risk. Risk is a combination of Probability and Consequence. The Nuclear industry has known this for decades.
John, have you considered the weight of EV’s? Would a multi storey car park accept the weight of large numbers of such vehicles, and what would a collision of a conventional vehicle with a heavy battery vehicle look like?
Great video - pragmatic and rational, and thus I'm not sure how it could be construed as fear mongering. As the percentage and age of EV's increases, so too will the number of thermal runaways and / or fires related to EV's. These fires require different approaches to ICE related fires, and carry different risk factors. Think about the number of dimwitted drivers out there, the number of people you know who don't maintian their vehicles or do even basic checks on a daily or weekly basis, or the number of people who do dumb things with power boards or extension cords. Now imagine some of them driving and / or keeping well maintained and / or charging an EV without a basic understanding of how it works / where the battery is located and what its vulnerabilities are, how to check for potential damage after an accident / how to safely charge it at home. It's not anti EV to want discussion about this and reasonable safety measures & guidelines (which appear to be in short supply) put in place.
Don't forget the dimwitted battery operated remote combustion vehicle owners that _think_ they'll be capable of doing their own repairs and customising.
@@davidnobular9220 - I guess the Holley instruction sheet neglects to mention that their aftermarket parts are only suitable for _real_ cars. My Dad's old boom-box contains 12, slightly corroded, D size batteries. If you plug that into a tezz-lah, I'm certain you will get the power boost you are looking for. At the very least, it will make the battery operated remote combustion engined vehicle look better.
Many homes also have gas water heaters and furnaces in the garage. They are a wonderful source of ignition for any flammable vapor, be it gasoline, battery vapor, leaking natural gas or even spray painting. As a rule you should never store gasoline, propane tanks, etc in a closed garage. 😮😮
Nice to see you correctly using the term deflagration after your previous confusion with detonation. There's nothing particularly gentle about deflagration - a 1 Bar over pressure shock wave will invariably kill you, even half an atomosphere will launch you off your feet and do things like demolish houses and destroy bulkheads on ships. There's plenty of literature from US nuclear test on this very subject.
Great common-sense report. It's a pity that your suggestions will probably fall on deaf ears until events force them to be implemented. Cart before the horse is the default position in OZ when it comes to safety regulations.
Drove past a minor nose to tail accident, where a pickup truck ran into the back of a Tesla. Normally I would just expect a tow truck or two But there was a fire truck and a police car in attendance It looks like the emergency services are well aware of the dangers of even small crashes with EVs
Here in the UK the multi story car park owners Are not too keen to have EV above the ground floor because of the extra weight ,and I think they believe a fleet of Evs will collapse the floors that is why they put the charges on the lowest floor for Evie‘s which is normally below ground… Great vids I always look forward to the next one keep up the good work👍
the manual for my motorcycle (Sinnis Hoodlum 125) states that if you are involved in even a minor incident involving an impact to the vehicle from any angle and by any cause (shunt, t-bone or drop), that you should take it to a service agent and have the bike inspected for safety. That's for a petrol bike.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 I use Lithium Polymer batteries in my RC airplanes. They can be very dangerous. Once a fire starts, they cannot be put out usually without smothering them under a lot of sand. In a car they would be impossible to put out. They produce their own Oxygen as they burn so traditional methods don't work. That's why that ship in the Atlantic burned for a week before it burned itself out. It was carrying EVs.
A few years ago I worked at a company that designed solar electric systems. Battery storage and venting was a critical aspect of the design because all batteries have a venting potential. This is not a new problem or unique to lithium batteries or EVs. A few years before that I worked as an ent at a company that designed small motors and blowers. I got a call from someone who was installing our blowers in a mine. I told him our motors were not explosion proof or designed for that application and to cease using them immediately. It is scary how often people who have no idea about safety and risks blithely go about their days without professional advice.
As a reminder, EV fires overall are very rare, but EV vapour cloud explosions (VCE) are even less likely, involved in just 10.77% of all EV battery fire incidents since 2010.
Rare because there's bugger all of them and they're relatively new. Lets see how it pans out when there's more of them (including, shall we say less "premium" offerings..) around, its a ticking time bomb. Ive seen high capacity lipos run away personally, tiny by comparison, stuff for rc cars,still very scary. We have already had exploding phones and "hoverboards", will be cars next.
This has been food for thought! As for charging an EV outside our house that could also be very problematic in case disaster hits. The reason is that the well we use for our drinking water would be only about twenty meters from the charging point and I would expect that the toxic components of a runaway battery will most likely poison the well and make it unusable. (Another Erin Brockowich moment...)
I disagree. Everyone knows it’s a problem. Everyone admits it’s a problem. Everyone is trying to minimise the risks. Just in the same way that everyone knows nuclear power plants are a risk, but everything is done to minimise the risks. In Norway 27% of passenger vehicles are EVs, and 88% of new car sales are EV. If this was the problem you are purporting it to be, it would be seen there first… but it simply isn’t. Your personal fear mongering doesn’t change that. The facts are that in the US there is one EV vehicle fire for every 205 million miles traveled. In comparison, there is one fire for every 19 million miles traveled by ICE vehicles. The facts don’t support your opinion.
@@johnwade1095 Right. And let’s put all lithium ion powered devices in the same place. Mobile phones, electric bikes, electric scooters, drones, cordless power tools, laptops, pacemakers, defibrillators. That makes perfect sense, right?
the "facts" are too new and thus too skewed. there are a few million ev-s in the us while there are about 250+million ICE cars, the evs are new, very new, most being less than 10 and even 5 years old. while the ICE vehicles are in average 12 years old, AVERAGE, in other words there are many that are more then 12 years old. its very similar in the EU, also 250+million cars, 12 years old on average etc
Indeed. It’s becoming a case of the boy who cried wolf. Nobody is listening any more, because the EV bashing is so relentless. Stating every few minutes that “it’s not that I’m anti EV….. but…” reminds me of police interaction videos where the person being arresting keeps repeating “I’m not resisting:”, while they kick, and scream, and spit, and bite, and throw punches, and them state “I’m not resisting” again. Maybe it’s simply because his entire business model of “I get cars cheaper for you” doesn’t work on fixed priced cars - like Tesla?
@@zorbakaput8537 but that's the point, there isn't that much material, just that EVER EV fire makes the news and then every anti EV channel shows the same incident over and over. If the same happened with ICE fires there would be a whole news channel broadcasting live 24/7 to keep up. Remember every time there was a crash in a Tesla involving autopilot? Alwasy made the news. Those stories have gone away as there have been improvements to the system and hopefully people using the system better, i.e. not treating it as "full self driving" and not paying attention.
@@zorbakaput8537 A Petrol car fire is about 20 times more likely than an EV fire (Data from Sweden Safety Bureau - ruclips.net/video/9kNIyTQ2jeM/видео.htmlsi= ) but nearly every 2nd vid for the last few months…
A lot of the EV plug in points I see at my local shops are right near the entrances to the shops, escalators and main pedestrian walkways through the car parks.
With the batteries that contain Cobalt, the cars themselves as well as the property where the car is normally garage should have a prominent hazchem sign to warn first responders to the potential danger.
when anything related to electric car fires the media in uk might show it or might not, we had 1 report on the freemantle highway , i had to look through you tube to find out what happened next
My son is a firefighter and he said if a EV fire happens in Calif. on the freeway they have to shutdown both sides of the freeway. He said the jet from the explosion goes a crazy distance which I believe was 200 ft.
My friend owns a Chevy Volt and got a letter from his insurance stating they will not cover the car for a battery fire. Plus he can no longer park or charge the Volt in the garage if he wants fire coverage on his home going forward.
The main reason it's not seen as a major concern is that lithium ion batteries are used in basically everything today. Many watches, headphones, earbuds, all phones, flashlights, radios, etc. The current statistics is 1 in ten million batteries will fail. Of course many EVs have thousands in one pack so the odds is higher. But that's why EVs really should be pushed more towards things like LFP or sodium as they're far more stable with a failed battery basically being just a nonfunctional battery.
I used to look after and drive a 1914 Petrol Electric 42 seater bus. Its large petrol tank was sited under the drivers seat immediately above a very large sparking propulsion dynamo. You might think that over 100 years development from then "might" be enough to better resolve what are quite basic issues with electric propulsion safety?
The issue of flammables within the home is that almost all homes are not intrinsically safe. e.g. Intrinsically safe power sockets, switches, lights and appliances. All of which can be ignition sources. Nor are homes well ventilated as the modern design goes for fully sealed windows and doors...
Personally, I prefer an electric remote activated garage door opener, rather than the alternative exploding garage door opener.
; though it seemed to be an effective blast window - reducing destruction to one room only.
Mate, you've got no sense of adventure and no spontaneity. And at the risk of offending you, you sound like you might be a bit of a control freak. It's 2023, aren't we supposed to respect the garage door's choice to remain open or closed? Should we judge it on that basis?
But the explosive one is much faster...
GARN! live dangerously.
@@skunkjobb it is preferable to be able to close after opening, no matter the mechanism.
As a safety and risk engineer, everything u said is correct. Everyone is too scared to address these real issues incase they are viewed as anti ev. This could be a future asbestos mass lawsuit in my opinion. Thanks for bringing this up. Everyone needs to know the risks.
imo ev's demonstrate the human species' propensity to go along with BS and not learn from past toxic disasters
Why would anyone be afraid of being viewed as anti EV? I'm as anti EV as it's possible to get. If something is bad, and EVs most definitely are, is there some reason why you shouldn't be opposed to it? Idiots like that are one of the main reasons EVs exist in the first place. It is the job of everyone who knows the truth to let people know just how worthless, dangerous, and environmentally damaging EVs actually are. Quit covering things up. Be PROUD of being anti EV. You might just save the world.
I'm anti-EV, and I'm not scared.
@@wadewilson6628 you never heard of Wittenoom? They even bought tailings to the miner's homes so the children had a lovely blue sand (asbestos ) pit.
If it were, why hasn't the same happened to anything else with lithium ion? All lithium ion has the same chance of failure with nearly everyone carrying a phone, many people and companies use laptops instead of desktops, all industries use portable radios, etc. The EV is just more prominent as its bigger so the fire is more blatant and they have more cells in them.
The statistics still show EVs are 60 times less likely to catch fire than ICE ND 130 times less than hybrids. The main issue is that EVs are nearly impossible to put out when they do catch fire. The news just loves to spin things the way they want.
Let’s hope politicians have lots of these EVs parked at Parliament House when they go “poopie.”
In their own homes, not the peoples house.
Why would you want the taxpayers to lose more money?
There are literally 58 new EV chargers all being installed in one big group together underneath Parliament House.
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars fingers crossed.
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars with three V16 diesel generators to run them.
I visited a friend in Sydney recently. We parked in an underground parking structure in Haymarket to have lunch at Darling Harbour. All of your messaging about the potential hazards of charging EV's in enclosed speces came flooding back as I looked at 6 Teslas all recharging in the dedicated charging bays grouped together in this underground space. As we walked to the exit we couldn't help but notice that there was only one way out that wouldn't be cut off by a fire, if it were to occur, and no way to avoid the smoke.
No warnings were posted anywhere near the charging bays pertaining to particular emergency measures. These are just my observations. Please, no pro-EV trolls.
Good point. The Novotel Wilson car park in Chinatown, Sydney, has a dedicated bay right in front of the lifts, I have noted there are stairs leading down to ground so will be very mindful where to run if smoke ever billows out from an EV.
They sink big ships that's enough for me.🚢🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Like many tragedies in history, things will only change after a disaster or serious accident before governments realise they need to do more in managing hazards and risks as new technologies are introduced and existing infrastructures aren't designed or equipped to cope. Battling one EV fire is bad enough let alone six EVs grouped together. It will ultimately come down to how diligent the carpark operator is in managing the risks.
Another issue is the increasing weight of vehicles given EVs are much heavier. Although this pales into comparison with the risk of battery fires.
Why would you think that anyone pro-EV was a troll? Anyway, EV owner of 5 years and 90,000 km here and of course I am interested in safety as everyone should be. The data shows that your petrol powered car is 25 times more likely to burst into flames than an EV and the biggest cause of fires in car parks is petrol theft. So should there be warning signs for each petrol car too? Bear in mind that at any one time there are very few if any people in an underground or multi-story car park. I am sure the owners of the car park meet all of the city regulations.
Tesla battery management Is designed against things going crazy thermally I’d suggest that they might have a better track record on the fire hazard front than most . We know about the problems that General Motors have had with their cheaper Electric Cars … those are best parked in a safe space with nothing important above them …
I was in a shopping centre carpark at Top Ryde Sydney about 10 hours ago. Two cars a Tesla and a BYD were charging in the second basement car park . There are 3 basement levels and about 10 above ground. No warning signs at all, no pressurised escape routes. One car was fully charged and was still there when I left 4 hours later. It also occurred to me that carparks are full of those 'short' steel speed humps, the ones that give your car and your battery a good jolt, even at low speeds. It would be interesting to know what damage can occur to a battery when it has been over "its annual quota " of speed humps. Noted that this incident involved an NCM chemistry battery but there is also minimal information on the allegedly safer batteries that have replaced them. The information black hole is the most disturbing problem of all, and as an EV owner I think that this lack of information has to be sorted out. Quickly.
Serves you right for buying into this bs. A victim of slick marketing and WEF propaganda.
I'm actually a security guard at a shopping centre, we have 6 monthly fire training and there's still no mention of procedures for EV fires or risk. Even my security firm which handles about 100 centres doesn't have a procedure. Our security buggys are lithium powered and so is the cleaning equipment, the smell those two units produce during charging is worrying.
@@Grant82gc also vapour released from EV car batteries can ignite. Someone garages exploded caught on camera on yt. Caused by VAPOUR. You know how even in normal zinc AA batteries YOU GET LEAKAGE? A bit like that except its multiplied 2000 batteries. 2000
Imagine your house going down in flames and you being homeless or burned beyond recognition or having your outer skin burned. Imagine.
These Chinese EVs are catching fire like mad in China.
I have a charging unit fixed externally with free energy from solar panels. Charging of the vehicle takes place in the open. The vehicle incurs high mileage and is used commercially for pick up/delivery of specialised small items in an urban area. It is quiet, clean, and very cheap, and I suspect I might know its values and limitations reasonably well. @@esecallum
John, You are absolutely right. I worked in engineering design and in particular, the petrochem industry, for almost 50 years and, as you know, we have thousands and thousands of regulations and guides / standards to ensure safest possible operations. Low probability - high consequence events have really been studied over and over again to minimise risks. All you are very reasonably asking for is the same due diligence regarding ev battery risks. This is becoming ever more important as more and more ev's are rolled. Thanks for your good work. Let's prevent reasonably foreseable bad events.
E.V = Extremely Volatile.
And F F = what? > Fully Fucked< perhaps if we keep burning this "finite" polluting fuel.
That moped video is terrifying... hard to imagine the panic I'd feel if I suddenly saw billowing, acrid smoke in an underground carpark
With your young kids and ageing parents all on the way to dinner...
@@AutoExpertJCA definite headless chicken type of situation 😂😂😂
I would guess many people would actually move closer to the smoking vehicle so they could extinguish the fire or prevent a fire if they catch the smoke just appearing.
@@VompoVompatti I'd be interested to know the procedure for this with electric vehicles.
@@AutoExpertJC The main problem is how difficult they are to extinguish set against a ICE vehicle , having seen a standard vehicle fire when the fire brigade arrived they had the fire out in seconds . This just doesn’t happen with EVs , in fact they tend to carry on unchecked so will tend to consume every thing around them . And even reignite when it’s assumed they are safe , sorry but I think you’re being to kind on the industry . The potential for these vehicles to be the source of a major disaster , is totally unacceptable and should be addressed immediately . Kind regards 👍
I just retired after 40 years in the fire service.
The senior officers aren’t game to say what they would like to say about EV safety due to them being beholden to their net zero evangelist masters.
There needs to be some standards adopted for ventilation, smoke alarms, fire walls or other separation into the building code.
Fail safe mechanisms in EVs and EV chargers also need to be improved to talk to battery BMS and shut down prior to thermal runaway
The big difference with ICE is that risks can be managed with proper maintenance. If you can smell fuel or have wiring that is shorting out, you really need to do something about it. The real danger for batteries is that they tend to go poopy-ina-pants in unexpected and invisible ways. On the one hand ICE gives you some warning about problems which are hard to ignore (unless you are an idiot), and on the other batteries can seriously bite you no matter how smart you are or how good you are with charging and maintenance. It only takes one little defect in one of the thousands of cells in an EV to be a ticking time bomb. Hands up those who think manufactures will have a 100% perfect record going forward? Even if they do their job properly, the dendritic growth problem John talks about is real and is caused by discharging the cells. There are no guarantees that being careful about discharging the batteries is going to save you, because it's impossible to monitor every cell in an EV battery or do proper balanced charging.
If EV battery problems follow the usual pattern for Lithium cells, the greatest periods of danger are when the battery is being charged or immediately after when it is first put back into service. John is 1000% correct in saying that vehicles should not be charged inside your house. I'll go even further and say you should probably convert that garage into a tool room or workshop. Forget about storing your EV in there.
Its actually impressive how few car fires there are given the explosive nature of gasoline.
@@jeffk464 Gasoline needs between a 6:1 and 20:1 fuel/air ratio to sustain combustion. Since gasoline fumes are heavier than air, they tend to take quite a bit of time to build up to the point they can "reach" a source of ignition higher up. In many unheated garages, the fumes tend to harmlessly "leak" out under the doors unless the amount spilled is significant.
Batteries can also be damaged in accidents or with rough driving. Not everyone goes to the workshop for repairs immediately.
All the Chinese EVs NZ has decided to import should be fun.
Idiotic... In your house you probably have at least a half dozen devices with the same chemistry batteries including power tools, laptops, smart phones and so forth and if you are like most people you've never experienced a fire. Batteries are safe and arent 'ticking time bombs' or whatever the hyperbolic crowd says... Heck Lithium batteries are used in avaiation and we arent getting mass reports of fires aboard airplanes these days either.
Insurance (home) compnies will soon be banning charging EV's in integral garages - some are already insisting your EV is parked 20m from your house if your property is a great fire risk (wood construction, thatched roof etc). This will spread and be a common restriction soon enough.
20 meters !!!!! Hugh distance in cities. EV Uninsurable trash.
@@esecallum Indeed,I can't see to be honest how it's going to work once EV ownership gets to maybe 30% + . But those who pray to the church of EV can't see it ...
@@paulnewman9275 Range anxiety. stuck in a traffic jam? bp goes thru the roof. as your charge keeps dropping. charge trucks wont get to you due to jam ! cant keep it near the house. insurance premiums sky high.
Jesus, what a complete load of bollocks. Do you know what happens to an EV in a traffic jam? Nothing. Literally nothing.
@@esecallumLOL. Traffic jam causing an EV to run out of charge? Too funny!
I'm waiting to see how long it will take for insurance companies to not insure your property, if you charge an ev within a certain distance if that property.
It will come for sure.😊
Expect laws to protect the EV manufacturers. Something like "We must all share the risk for the greater good". Translation, politicians own the stock and took the payoffs.
Good video John. Interesting that England has now changed its EV policies to become more realistic and have these kinds of discussions.
Indeed, very good news indeed.
Like ULEZ?
@@unfurling3129 Something sensible was done in England?!
@@zoltanrudolfIt's not so much a change in policy as acceptance that private purchasers won't buy them. Or maybe EV's are self identifying as ICE's. Whatever, it is government bungling where they have no competence.
Doh? I wrote to my MP about the dangers of EV charging points in residential areas. No reply.
Few months ago, one EV caught fire in Munich (at least what I heard) in parking garage. The black smoke literally clouded the entire area. I was not near that smoke but I could smell that horrible stench. It was pinching my vocal cords and lungs. This thing is cancerous. And the worse problem is once it get lit, you cannot put it down that easily. Firefighters were literally waiting for this to burn out..., to put down what is left to our down.
If this was a aircraft, they’d all be grounded
They did ,the 787 had lithium batteries that did smoke up
Boeing installed fireplaces and chimneys in those aircraft for that very reason.
@@andrewallen9993 crematoriums. They build good coffins as well. So well in fact the authorities stepped In and stopped them building more .
As a HV technician I had to do diagnose some batteries that were faulty, most times it starts with something very minor, and the BMS detects it and don’t let the contactors close. I won’t believe on a scenario that the battery was damage and you will be able to drive.
Any unbalance, difference of temperature or insolation values is easily detected by the BMS.
It’s no impossible to happen, just can’t see it happening someone making damage and being able to drive away, at least with the systems I have been working.
Here in Perth, Karrinyup shopping center has 4 EV charging stations all tucked away in the corner of one of the underground carparks where they have the Sunday morning flea markets. The center has recently undergone redevelopment which also incorporates residential apartments. I would assume there are additional EV charging stations in the other underground carparks.
That sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen and pure common sense has been diluted over the generations!!! 😮😮😮😮
I recall that Chermside Westfield in Brisbane has installed the EV charges in the base of the lowest carparks right in the a far corner of the Pink Carpark - just as a warning to people not wanting to park near EV charging stations at that specific shopping centre. I can't speak for other shopping centres in the Greater Brisbane area. But keep your eye out.
LOL Baa Baa Baa
I had a 44 gallon drum of fuel blow up in a panel beaters shop when we went to a fire in the 80’s and the factory’s roller door blew out. The door was much bigger but the explosion here looked of a similar size.
P.S sources of ignition can be a beer fridge, a battery charger or other electric device. Static electricity can be produced by one fluid travelling across air etc like clouds making lightning. That’s why they earth petrol tankers delivering fuel.
And I believe that those fossil fuel fires can be put out with…water???
@@Inisfad not real smart are you.
As water is heavier than petrol therefore slips down permitting the petrol to rise to the surface and continue to burn. Besides, the existing temperature is so high that the water poured on the fire evaporates even before it can extinguisher the fire. The latter is true if small quantity water is poured. Thus the petrol fire cannot be extinguished by water.
@@nicko6710I think you missed @inisfad ‘s sarcasm
@@axelknutt5065 This is John's youtube comments. Full of anti EV bots.
Just looking at the risk factors, it's very unusual for anyone to regularly refuel an ICE car in a garage or enclosed space, most normal people would open the door for the short time that they did for example, remove a fuel tank or something similar. If it becomes the normal thing to leave cars plugged in overnight, this is increasingly likely to happen! Easy solution is "refuel" outside, being charged seems to link most cases.
I was in Barcelona a few weeks ago, EV caused evacuation of a hotel underground car park just up the road from ours.Smoke pouring from it and coming up through the entry/exit ramps - luckily it didn't develop into a full blown thermal runaway fire but next time who knows.
Smoke is toxic beyond belief 😮😮😮😮
With reference to your multistorey car parking for EV's there could be a bigger problem with that .IF the multistorey car park is old the structure might not be good enough to hold up the weight of these EV's - here in the UK a lot of multistorey car parks have banned EV's going any higher than ground floor because the car park could collapse purely of the enormous weight of multiple EV's charging in them.
The weight will be fine. It's nowhere near collapse.
Which car parks have banned them?
eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2023/06/uk-car-parks-could-collapse-under-the-weight-of-evs-report-warns/
@@AutoExpertJC Haven't you heard about the UK's problem with foamed concrete? they are closing hundreds of schools built with it because the concrete is crumbling and ceilings are falling down. It is commonly referred to as “crumbling concrete” and described as “80 percent air”. It has also been nicknamed Aero Bar, a popular chocolate bar that contains pockets of air. RAAC has been assessed to put buildings at risk of collapse after exceeding its 30-year lifespan.
The moment they start parking cars on the roofs of schools that'll be a huge problem. Until then it'll remain irrelevant drivel.
We've had quite a few news reports regarding cheap arse chinese scooters bursting into flames in peoples houses over here. It's only a matter of time before the whole thing gets out of control as EV numbers increase.
Wait till more of the Chinese EV's arrive in other countries across the globe. Already Mings Garage are selling loads (via business hire fleets) of their new EV's and Burn Your Dreams BYD are also about to launch their new hot cars 🔥
Red Hat, LOL
@bentullett6068 hahahaha I am stealing that 😂😂 Mings Garage
@@Thund3rcrash go for it. I stole it of someone else's comment.
You bring a series of very important points home regarding the obvious problem that a lot of EV batteries develop.
Thanks for the info , you need to be heard by a lot more people!
A lot of EV batteries develop. How many is a lot? What percentage of EV batteries per year or per 100K miles driven? What is the obvious problem? EV batteries are sealed and emit no gases while charging (unlike lead acid incidentally). I am pleased this guy is an expert on battery chemistry though and not some youtuber-expert. That is good to know.
My petrol car does not catch fire in a car park. I don’t fill my car with petrol in a car park but in a petrol station
I was always taught don’t leave batteries of any kind charging after they are fully charged as this may cause a fire.
Thanks John, your info about safety and the real carbon implications of EVs has been useful for informing others.
Also, God help us when the day comes when a car parking building full of EVs goes up!
Jon. We love. You love. We all love. EV, tech. Beautiful. Rushed to market quality bulk AA’s glued into chassis
Totally agree John. All charging should be outside. I note that Malaysia were moving to make basement charging illegal in shopping centers and apartments. Not sure where that has wound up to date.
Nice to hear your solutions rather than just noise.
What are the safety concerns and how can they be mitigated or reduced.
Yet another great video, and another reason to park 500m away from any EV charging station. Since I found you Jon I've started re-parking when I realise I've pulled in beside an EV.
Excellent news.
Cheers John,
All of this information about EV's and lithium batteries in general has changed the way I think about these batteries now.
I don't own an EV and to be honest I don't plan to for some time as I share your concerns in relation to surrounding countermeasures and battery disposal etc.
However, due to your videos I now try to be much safer with my lithium batteries in my home that I have in countless devices.
I have used Milwaukee electric battery tools thru my building and carpentry works, I bought the gardening tools and the big 12amp hour batteries. When you charge them they certainly put of a concerning smell, and a pinkish powdery material present around the terminals of both charger and batteries.
The battery is not a tight fit when installed in the tool. It vibrates in the housing while you run the tool, like a trimmer. This chafes the plastic.
The Milwaukee battery has some kind of a 'brain' circuit board in it. I assume it is doing some sort of cell monitoring. Not like a dumb old Nicad battery pack.
@tripplefives1402 Yup, it makes one think of whereabouts on your property would you plan to have the fire.
Funny thing, my alarm system control panel recently had a swollen lithium backup battery. The headline would read "Cause of fire: alarm system."
I am more than happy to drive my in-laws around in an EV. If it happens to go into thermal runaway, I’ll pretend to cry at the funeral
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
John your video is educational and stimulating as usual. Keep up the good work!
Not the least surprising is the deafening silence on this topic on ANY of the EV specific RUclips channels around the net. Funny that! Well done on your balanced coverage!
This highlights another huge difference between the 'modes' of EV and ICE fires - the unpredictability of the former. They can just 'decide' to go up sitting quiescently, sometimes even when not charging. 99.9% of of ICE fires (at a guess) occur _while they are attended,_ at the very least with their ignition on (electrics thus capable of generating a spark) or actually running (hot engine components)
The argument that EV's catch fire less often than ICE vehicles is irrelevant: governments globally are pressing for ICE vehicles to be phas 18:44 ed out. After which it will be 100% EV fires, so you're correct, authorities must be looking at solutions rapidly.
If the future wasn't dark enough. The prospect of a world filled with EV's is looming. In my 60 plus years I have never given a thought to parking next to another car. Or being in an enclosed area with one. Unless it was a Triumph Stag. They had a reputation. But now if I see plugged in cars I will be parking elsewhere. And the numbers will only increase.
Thanks, yes my list of perceived regulatory requirements is growing. Now we have to make sure every EV is sold with a Safety Data Sheet (SDS) listing all toxins and PPE requirements in the case of a thermal runaway.
Furthermore I would like some sort of black box in the vehicle to save all the sensor data of the last day 10 seconds prior to a catastrophic collision so that all parties besides the manufacturers have the evidence to determine the true cause.
I was in Texas recently and the motorways are littered with shredded tyres and stones that regularly impact windscreens etc and it is not hard to imagine the future of semis, cybertrucks, EV vans and SUVs being regularly hammered by flying debris.
Was at Box Hill Hospital today parking on 2 levels in basement. From the bottom of ramp at B2, there would be about 20 ev charging points for the fleet cars. It would be almost impossible to pass if one of these cars caught fire.
If? When.
You should bring it to the attention of building code inspectors and the fire marshall.
Another great analogy John . You're becoming to be my best form of information on these grenades . :)
I like the idea of making EV people drive all the way to the roof. 🤣 Shoo, EV people, shoo 🤣
It’s where the solar panels will be installed
The extra weight of the EV s will bring the roof down on everything else.😂
Up to the roof and keep going.
@@54macdog yep - like the Not The Nine O'Clock News sketch where the cars are directed "out" of the cargo ship....(I'm going back a bit here)
Clearly shows the rush to EV’s has ignored the true dangers few understand. Thanks for your entertaining rants
A home in suburban Pittsburgh,
Pa was blown to bits this past August. Unfortunately, six people died. The neighbor’s security camera footage of the explosion is incredible. I wondered if an EV explosion was the cause. But I think it was due to a natural gas leak.
Awesome video. Please keep up the education John. This needs to be considered as EV's grow market share. Thank you
With the recent car carrier ship incident plus all these other incidents its very worrying. At this point it would be safer to buy a lead acid battery fitted golf cart to commute around a town and city rather than a unpredictable lithium ion battery fitted huge EV.
I'm anti ev because I'm an electrician and I can see the coming issues and I can also see the safety hazards in them
Keep pushing the issue mate👍
Thank goodness someone is talking about this.
Thanks for keeping us aware of EV risks John! But what about your Bluetti battery pack? Have you put it somewhere safe in case this goes poopie in its trousers?
Different chemistry being LifeP04, they don't contain cobalt and are less likely to self destruct when in thermal runaway. Tesla Powerwall on the other hand contains thousands of Li-ion batteries and are usually Installed in the garage.
@@ozzybloke4830 Aha, good to know! Thanks for the explanation!
I was thinking the same thing. Interest in JC’s thoughts around this
Some shopping malls in Poland already banned the EVs from underground carparks. I just came back from holidays there and the number of EVs on the roads is quite large. This might be the reason why someone started thinking about the potential toxic fire issue. Another thing is, make and model choice is huge, when compared with Australia.
I've been screaming about EVs being a fire hazard to your family and home and the democrat party is demanding you bring home! Remember you you voted for this!
Thanks John. Just learnt a new word - 'deflagration'. Would never have picked it.
We went to Gunwharf Quays shopping centre in Portsmouth UK, as we drove into the underground car park I noticed about 20 EV charging bays on the left and another 20 or so to the left, these were the first bays in the car park by the entry/ exit road. Not very clever I parked right by the escalator to outside. The sad thing is there’s another deck below which has to exit by these bays thus trapping about 900 cars in a confined space, not clever at all.
This guy is 💯 right! Australia and is she will be right attitude. Watch this space as the EV population gets bigger so will the danger! I myself work in the explosive industry and I see this attitude all the time.
He is right. And there seems to be one particular battery chemistry which is more given to exploding than others. I am sure that insurance companies have the data.
Lead acid batteries are the most prone as they generate hydrogen when charging. Scary isn't it.
@@giddyurp
I don't think so.
Even if a lead acid battery does catch fire (and I have never heard of that happening), it can be extinguished in the usual way - by depriving the fire of oxygen.
The lithium batteries come with their own oxygen supply built in.
You just can't put them out !
@@paulsutton5896Lead acid does explode. It's very rare, and is caused by the battery being overcharged with really high current I believe, and we are talking about really small amounts of hydrogen, so nothing like what a lithium battery does. Lead acid is remarkably safe, especially some of the newer designs.
@@paulsutton5896 you should go and read the safety label on a lead acid battery. They all say ensure they are charged in a well ventilated area. You don't get to put a hydrogen fire out because it just goes bang all at once.
@@giddyurp
Yes. Hydrogen is flammable. It also dissipates readily, making is way quickly upwards, out of the way of any sources of ignition.
We have been using this type of battery for well over 100 years.
Is it purely by good luck that we never hear of a lead-acid battery fire?
Yet the relatively new technology of lithium batteries seem to "go off" regularly.
Eight people dead in UK since 2018 - trying to charge their bicycles !!!!.
Six battery fires per day in China, where the ev is commonplace. Very awkward in car parks and tunnels and so forth.
This is a problem which needs to be adressed.
Hi John, I should have written this first since it speaks directly to your question and it is also something that I think should be higher on the priority list. Most people do not understand the various battery chemistries and probably think that "lithium ion" is all the same thing when it is not. There is no legislation or even discussions about using safe chemistry from any governing body anywhere as far as I'm aware. Most places are pushing the switch to EVs quite forcefully, which will probably mean cheaper higher density chemistries like lithium cobalt will be used by those companies trying to win the range and price wars that will happen.
We should be using safer battery chemistries. Tesla and I think most European manufacturers use lithium manganese or hybrid chemistries rather than the much more dangerous lithium cobalt, however looking at the Fremantle Highway I have to wonder if this is actually the case. It certainly looks like a lot of cars in China are running lithium cobalt battery packs and I think they have a problem, but it's pretty hard to get figures out of China. We usually only find out from videos posted to social media and those are likely to be rare.
LiFePO is safer even than lithium hybrid chemistry, however the problem with alternate chemistries is that the energy density goes down the further you get from lithium cobalt chemistry. I think the energy density is low enough that sodium ion batteries look pretty good, and at this point it seems likely that they are even safer. There's not much data on that technology yet though. LiFePO is also lower voltage, being 3.2V nominal instead of 3.7V.
So yes, I think discussions around battery chemistry are pretty important and LiFePO seems to be one answer, even if it does not give the ultimate range that everyone seems to want it's probably better suited to light vehicle transport. It does mean that the various governments are going to have to relax their stance on "no ICE by 2030" or whatever mandates they come up with. They would be better off mandating for safer battery chemistries.
As an engineer John. Could you do the numbers on what type of pressures a vessel would have to be designed to to contain a TR or Vapor outgassing of a lithium ion battery to be self contained?
- Someone from Mclaren should be able to answer that - Rich Rebuilds demonstrated a P1 battery which internally combusted (A123 LFP cells from a bygone era) probably will get "no comment" from the big M.
Trying to make a pressure vessel to contain a thermal runaway is tricky. Venting and cooling (to reduce quasi static pressures and chance of runaway in first place) is likely more productive strategy.
I hear John implying using roof space rather than basement? These EVs are way heavier than necessary so the number should be limited to avoid overloading structure.
Nuclear weapons are designed to only detonate the conventional explosives if they are in a pool fire - ok they might spread fissile material and not make that place too habitable but they shouldn't wipe out a city. Maybe some weapons designers should look into making EVs safer?
@@stephenhookings1985 your standard Tesla model 3 is 200kg heavier than a Camry. Which still makes it 500kg lighter than a ford ranger and over a ton lighter than a Toyota Land Cruiser. This whole EVs are going to cause car parks to fail is bullshit
Thanks for sharing this with us. Yes, EV technology still needs to be studied.
I'm interested in what will happen when there is an EV fire in for example the north connex or m5 tunnel?
I think he may have posed this question in a previous video, and yep it makes me glad we don't have many tunnels here in Adelaide.
Maybe a law that says anyone operating a tunnel must have a vehicle ready to shove a burning vehicle out of the tunnel ASAP..
and if that means a water curtain, breathing apparatus etc for the driver of said vehicle...so be it.
Interesting if the EV was a fully laden passenger bus...
Hadn't even considered the home insurance question. The thought of these in parking garages is pretty scary.
But the Electric Viking just posted a video recently, saying that there's new EV battery technology that will surely kill off the ICE cars for sure in short time....
What the heck are we going to do??! We're doomed!!😅
Real Vikings had no electricity they paddle their boats by hand ✋
Love your colorful alternate descriptive words, please keep up the good work. Hello from Berkeley, IL in the USA.
The horse has already bolted.
Expect lots of great footage in the not too distant future.
Back in the day, bangers were usually old.
Thx John. No more highrise or underground parking for me!!!
I guess EV now stands for Explosive Vehicles.
There was a video of someone taking a scooter into a lift in Asia somewhere. The battery cooked off in the lift. Can you imagine that, being stuck in a small space, less than a couple of square metres, and you can not exit until it gets to the next floor
I shake my head at anyone who even considered purchasing an EV.
It's worth emphasizing one of John's points that Low Probability is not equal to Low Risk. Risk is a combination of Probability and Consequence. The Nuclear industry has known this for decades.
John, have you considered the weight of EV’s? Would a multi storey car park accept the weight of large numbers of such vehicles, and what would a collision of a conventional vehicle with a heavy battery vehicle look like?
Is there any reason why you don’t see Caltex servos in basement car parks? Would be very convenient for shoppers.
Rules about fumes and ventilation...oh wait....
Wish my workshop was crystal clean and tidy like yours 😮😊
Great video - pragmatic and rational, and thus I'm not sure how it could be construed as fear mongering. As the percentage and age of EV's increases, so too will the number of thermal runaways and / or fires related to EV's. These fires require different approaches to ICE related fires, and carry different risk factors.
Think about the number of dimwitted drivers out there, the number of people you know who don't maintian their vehicles or do even basic checks on a daily or weekly basis, or the number of people who do dumb things with power boards or extension cords. Now imagine some of them driving and / or keeping well maintained and / or charging an EV without a basic understanding of how it works / where the battery is located and what its vulnerabilities are, how to check for potential damage after an accident / how to safely charge it at home. It's not anti EV to want discussion about this and reasonable safety measures & guidelines (which appear to be in short supply) put in place.
Don't forget the dimwitted battery operated remote combustion vehicle owners that _think_ they'll be capable of doing their own repairs and customising.
@@maifantasia3650 I tried to put a Holley 360 on my Tesla.....didn't make any difference.....
@@davidnobular9220 - I guess the Holley instruction sheet neglects to mention that their aftermarket parts are only suitable for _real_ cars.
My Dad's old boom-box contains 12, slightly corroded, D size batteries. If you plug that into a tezz-lah, I'm certain you will get the power boost you are looking for. At the very least, it will make the battery operated remote combustion engined vehicle look better.
Many homes also have gas water heaters and furnaces in the garage. They are a wonderful source of ignition for any flammable vapor, be it gasoline, battery vapor, leaking natural gas or even spray painting. As a rule you should never store gasoline, propane tanks, etc in a closed garage. 😮😮
I used too consider buying an Ev .......not now.
Nice to see you correctly using the term deflagration after your previous confusion with detonation.
There's nothing particularly gentle about deflagration - a 1 Bar over pressure shock wave will invariably kill you, even half an atomosphere will launch you off your feet and do things like demolish houses and destroy bulkheads on ships. There's plenty of literature from US nuclear test on this very subject.
I got a big gouge in my helmet once. When BJs go wrong. You should do a piece on it.
How is a helmet involved if you’re getting a B-J ?
Sounds interesting 😢
@@spinnymathingy3149 The other helmet, I'm assuming.
@@kevinfoo8031 She was Canadian. I think that should make everything clear.
Hungry or did you say the wrong thing?
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars She was trying to make poutine I think
In NZ, the insurance companies are talking with the electrical registration board to make the charger outlet fitted externally to the dwelling.
Great common-sense report. It's a pity that your suggestions will probably fall on deaf ears until events force them to be implemented. Cart before the horse is the default position in OZ when it comes to safety regulations.
Drove past a minor nose to tail accident, where a pickup truck ran into the back of a Tesla.
Normally I would just expect a tow truck or two
But there was a fire truck and a police car in attendance
It looks like the emergency services are well aware of the dangers of even small crashes with EVs
Here in the UK the multi story car park owners Are not too keen to have EV above the ground floor because of the extra weight ,and I think they believe a fleet of Evs will collapse the floors that is why they put the charges on the lowest floor for Evie‘s which is normally below ground… Great vids I always look forward to the next one keep up the good work👍
More likely they put them on the bottom floor to avoid long wire runs.
There was something I read in the UK this year about how multi storey car parks weren't designed to take the weight of Evs and needed to be rebuilt.
the manual for my motorcycle (Sinnis Hoodlum 125) states that if you are involved in even a minor incident involving an impact to the vehicle from any angle and by any cause (shunt, t-bone or drop), that you should take it to a service agent and have the bike inspected for safety. That's for a petrol bike.
Note to myself: do not park next to an EV!
I hate talking to those people, too.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 I use Lithium Polymer batteries in my RC airplanes. They can be very dangerous. Once a fire starts, they cannot be put out usually without smothering them under a lot of sand. In a car they would be impossible to put out. They produce their own Oxygen as they burn so traditional methods don't work. That's why that ship in the Atlantic burned for a week before it burned itself out. It was carrying EVs.
A few years ago I worked at a company that designed solar electric systems. Battery storage and venting was a critical aspect of the design because all batteries have a venting potential. This is not a new problem or unique to lithium batteries or EVs. A few years before that I worked as an ent at a company that designed small motors and blowers. I got a call from someone who was installing our blowers in a mine. I told him our motors were not explosion proof or designed for that application and to cease using them immediately. It is scary how often people who have no idea about safety and risks blithely go about their days without professional advice.
As a reminder, EV fires overall are very rare, but EV vapour cloud explosions (VCE) are even less likely, involved in just 10.77% of all EV battery fire incidents since 2010.
10.77% is pretty high and definitely a clear danger
Does that include China.
Nope there stats are too high to publish lest the industry is damaged. @@stevemogan5384
Rare because there's bugger all of them and they're relatively new. Lets see how it pans out when there's more of them (including, shall we say less "premium" offerings..) around, its a ticking time bomb. Ive seen high capacity lipos run away personally, tiny by comparison, stuff for rc cars,still very scary. We have already had exploding phones and "hoverboards", will be cars next.
Oh well we can ignore the risks entirley then cant we !!!
This has been food for thought! As for charging an EV outside our house that could also be very problematic in case disaster hits. The reason is that the well we use for our drinking water would be only about twenty meters from the charging point and I would expect that the toxic components of a runaway battery will most likely poison the well and make it unusable. (Another Erin Brockowich moment...)
I disagree. Everyone knows it’s a problem. Everyone admits it’s a problem. Everyone is trying to minimise the risks. Just in the same way that everyone knows nuclear power plants are a risk, but everything is done to minimise the risks.
In Norway 27% of passenger vehicles are EVs, and 88% of new car sales are EV. If this was the problem you are purporting it to be, it would be seen there first… but it simply isn’t. Your personal fear mongering doesn’t change that.
The facts are that in the US there is one EV vehicle fire for every 205 million miles traveled. In comparison, there is one fire for every 19 million miles traveled by ICE vehicles. The facts don’t support your opinion.
Good point. I suggest the same solution - put them a long way from population centers, with a concrete shield in case anything goes wrong.
@@johnwade1095
Right. And let’s put all lithium ion powered devices in the same place. Mobile phones, electric bikes, electric scooters, drones, cordless power tools, laptops, pacemakers, defibrillators. That makes perfect sense, right?
So tell me what Norwegians have done to mitigate this?
the "facts" are too new and thus too skewed.
there are a few million ev-s in the us while there are about 250+million ICE cars, the evs are new, very new, most being less than 10 and even 5 years old.
while the ICE vehicles are in average 12 years old, AVERAGE, in other words there are many that are more then 12 years old.
its very similar in the EU, also 250+million cars, 12 years old on average etc
@@xerr0n So the peak of the danger curve is yet to arrive.
I never thought that could happen with an EV, I just expect them to catch fire. And these fires are very toxic and hard to put out.
Give it a rest John. Yet another EV’s are dangerous vid. You need to find another hobby.
Indeed. It’s becoming a case of the boy who cried wolf. Nobody is listening any more, because the EV bashing is so relentless.
Stating every few minutes that “it’s not that I’m anti EV….. but…” reminds me of police interaction videos where the person being arresting keeps repeating “I’m not resisting:”, while they kick, and scream, and spit, and bite, and throw punches, and them state “I’m not resisting” again.
Maybe it’s simply because his entire business model of “I get cars cheaper for you” doesn’t work on fixed priced cars - like Tesla?
Why there is so much material to work with?
@@zorbakaput8537 but that's the point, there isn't that much material, just that EVER EV fire makes the news and then every anti EV channel shows the same incident over and over. If the same happened with ICE fires there would be a whole news channel broadcasting live 24/7 to keep up. Remember every time there was a crash in a Tesla involving autopilot? Alwasy made the news. Those stories have gone away as there have been improvements to the system and hopefully people using the system better, i.e. not treating it as "full self driving" and not paying attention.
@@zorbakaput8537 A Petrol car fire is about 20 times more likely than an EV fire (Data from Sweden Safety Bureau - ruclips.net/video/9kNIyTQ2jeM/видео.htmlsi= ) but nearly every 2nd vid for the last few months…
@@just_passing_throughanymore is one word 🤡
A lot of the EV plug in points I see at my local shops are right near the entrances to the shops, escalators and main pedestrian walkways through the car parks.
With the batteries that contain Cobalt, the cars themselves as well as the property where the car is normally garage should have a prominent hazchem sign to warn first responders to the potential danger.
Keep up the great and honest content .. spread the word and blinkers come off before many life's lost
when anything related to electric car fires the media in uk might show it or might not, we had 1 report on the freemantle highway , i had to look through you tube to find out what happened next
The up & over garage door - so 20th century. New technology brings you the out, down & under door. So much more exciting.
This occurred in Erie, Colorado.
My son is a firefighter and he said if a EV fire happens in Calif. on the freeway they have to shutdown both sides of the freeway. He said the jet from the explosion goes a crazy distance which I believe was 200 ft.
My friend owns a Chevy Volt and got a letter from his insurance stating they will not cover the car for a battery fire. Plus he can no longer park or charge the Volt in the garage if he wants fire coverage on his home going forward.
The main reason it's not seen as a major concern is that lithium ion batteries are used in basically everything today. Many watches, headphones, earbuds, all phones, flashlights, radios, etc. The current statistics is 1 in ten million batteries will fail. Of course many EVs have thousands in one pack so the odds is higher. But that's why EVs really should be pushed more towards things like LFP or sodium as they're far more stable with a failed battery basically being just a nonfunctional battery.
I used to look after and drive a 1914 Petrol Electric 42 seater bus. Its large petrol tank was sited under the drivers seat immediately above a very large sparking propulsion dynamo. You might think that over 100 years development from then "might" be enough to better resolve what are quite basic issues with electric propulsion safety?
The issue of flammables within the home is that almost all homes are not intrinsically safe. e.g. Intrinsically safe power sockets, switches, lights and appliances. All of which can be ignition sources. Nor are homes well ventilated as the modern design goes for fully sealed windows and doors...