Baby Reindeer & Narcissism (Chapter 3)
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- Опубликовано: 30 апр 2024
- Dr Kirk reacts to Baby Reindeer (Netflix, 2024) and discusses narcissistic personality disorder, abuse, sadism, psychopathy, and abuse.
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Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
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I interpreted the ending as, a realization that it wasn't his fault. Donnie was simply doing a nice gesture in the beginning of the series just like the bartender at the end. It was just a matter of chance that the person he did it for was Martha. He can see that he was just being nice and ended up being taken advantage of, just like the abuse that he went through with Darrien as well. The ending felt almost like a consolation, to not blame himself because it could've happened to anyone.
I love this!!
Yes, I thought this too!
I'm going to cry into my pillow now.
I didn't think this was the ending meaning, but this is now what I will go with. What a lovely interpretation ❤
The ending is about him discovering his codependency, his own narcissism.
He is drawn to people he feels sorry for because he thinks he can fix them and in so doing fix himself.
His relationship with Martha wasnt altruism. Had it been that, he would have called it quits much earlier.
Instead, he showed very classic codependency.
Narcissists and Borderline people use their codependents, but codependents also use their Narcissists.
Dr Kirk: I am stepping back from daily videos for a little bit
Netflix: The hell you are.
Ha! Yeah, but now... I'm seriously stepping back. Gotta finish my book! :)
@@PsychologyInSeattle. But what about all the stuff that has come out since? The real Martha has revealed herself and is being unhinged in the media plus Richard attempted to have a relationship with a trans woman that he also encouraged to audition for the role of Martha. There’s more and we need your views.
@@PsychologyInSeattle Piers Morgan interviewing her the real Martha 9pm UK 🇬🇧 time utube !
@@PharmaSmilesAnd she lied her ass off.
The BDSM sadism kink vs real sexual sadism was best described to me as "There is a big difference in a actor playing a murderer in a movie/theater vs a real murderer"
I watched Baby Reindeer a few days before I saw Kirk’s posts about it. Hearing his analysis shifted my perspective tremendously. I was so frustrated by Donnie’s repeated spiraling back to his abusers. Literally talking to the screen, “No! No! No! Don’t do that! What is wrong with you!?” After viewing Kirk’s compassionate, knowledgeable response I began to see how the circular nature of abuse and trauma can contribute not only to a sense of impotence and hopelessness but to the projection of highly charged judgment onto the victims. I’ve gotten a clearer perspective on my own experiences of abuse and trauma. I realize that my reaction to the show reflected my own self-talk. So I sit here with a bit more compassion. For victims. For abusers. For myself. What a journey we’re on! The complexity of being human. What we are all caught by and dance with. It confirms just how beneficial this channel is for me. Thanks, Dr. Honda.
Dana, you exhibit humility and wisdom. Very commendable. You lead the way.
Episode 4 explains everything. But maybe for some viewers, this explanation should have come sooner, because I have seen many people finding Donny obnoxious. Which happens in real life too when you see the toxic behaviours without knowing their causes....
My theory is Don was abused when he was younger which makes him more susceptible to abuse as an adult. Unfortunately, abusers can sniff out those who've been abused 😥
The monologue in episode 5 explained a lot. If I must pick a line, "I hate myself more than I love her" hits hard. The self hatred, the concious and subconcious desire to gain control of the situation, the denial, the attempt to act as if everything was normal, trying to convince yourself that you can face it, that you could be better and still have compassion... they're so complicated and difficult to explain because sometimes we don't even know what's happening to us.
This show and its popularity hopefully will end up educating a lot of people and going to change a lot of mindset around victim blaming.
As someone who has been a victim of every kind of abuse he faced, the way you describe why victims do the things they do is spot on. I’ve realized a lot of these things but have never had another person articulate them. Thanks for that. It’s validating to know someone understands.
Wow, thanks. Coming from you, that means so much. Truly. That's why I make these videos, so I can provide a little more validation for people like you.
This show really is incredible. I don't think I've ever seen male abuse on screen like this. It's always been in the shadows...and that is how people get away with it. How brave Gadd is for speaking about it and normalizing that it's OK to speak about. Such a big step in the right direction!
So often it’s even the punchline. Hopefully this is a watershed moment in the discourse- and we as consumers reject those other narratives that discount male victims or make fun of them.
What’s amazing about this show is having a male experiencing abuse and having a female relate to it.
@@UrsulaZA A woman being able to relate to abuse (of anyone) is in no way surprising.
"I wish I could tell you I left" was the line in the series that affected me the most, not just because I relate to it but because of the way it's mirrored throughout Donny's understanding of his abusers. Martha isn't self-aware enough to clock that her grandiose tales aren't being believed, her awareness of the harm she's causing cuts in and out as the fantasy takes over. Darrien talks about Donny's speech as being "very brave" blankly, like he doesn't even understand that he's the one being talked about. In the final episode when Donny is trying to piece together Martha's backstory that made her this way, he's searching for some meaning--why me? Why did this happen to me? And comes up empty. The sinking, empty realization that the people who hurts us have motivations that are forever unknowable to us, unknowable even to themselves sometimes. Similar to how we can fail to explain our own behaviour. Ugh. It's too real.
Yes, all of what you said!
Why him? He spoke to her, that's all the in she needs!
I disagree but not harshly- i think both abusers have awareness, Martha- I don't think she cares if people believe her and almost, she likes to lie (controlling the truth) dares people to confront her so, she can antagonize them (imposing control).
Darren is aware, of what he is but likes his image. I think he sees he is in a bit, of a prickly situation because Donnie, is no longer 'a nobody' and also, acknowledges, Donnie's bravery.
They may both indulge, in delusions but both have strong, self serving and self protecting qualities.
@@lagomorph770his wounding made him vulnerable and attractive, to predators
Want to speak personally here: this is the heaviest Dr. Honda video I've ever watched, personally. Just want to send hugs to everyone who has ever had to recover from something so horrific, I am among your number, I believe you, I support you, we are not alone, and it is not our fault. I am so, so sorry and the only slight consolation is the more this is spoken about, the less of this suffering for others in future.
I have seen you in the comments and love your input on many things. Especially this comment right here!
@@s.melonita4454 Thank you so much, sincerely! ❤
Likewise, both FishareFriends and s.melonita. I feel safer approaching these heavy topics with Dr Honda but also with the thoughtful regular commenters here such as yourselves ❤
I second everything! 💕
Thank you for your comment, we go through this together ❤
I was stunned by how well His parents responded. Those few
Scenes were So powerful.
I was surprised that Dr. Honda didn't talk about this scene with his parents.
His parents are pretty indicative of British working class parents from that generation. We're pretty tough.
Well, his fathers experience of abuse was why. His fathers angry outbursts at Martha when she was harassing the parents, were a symptom of his own sexual abuse at the hands of the catholic church
I was sobbing through that scene. Very powerful! I wish I had a dad like that.
I burst into tears when he said, "I didn't want you to think less of me."
This depicts the shame of being sexually assaulted so well. It can feel like this dirty, dark, shameful secret.
As soon as it's brought to light, it loses its power, and healing can begin.
I really love that Martha's threats are what brought him closer to his parent's and that he had a new level of acceptance from them, which helped him accept himself too.
This episode must have been so challenging to relive, writing it and acting it out. How brave of him, and how traumatizing at the same time
I hope he has a really good therapist around him.
I have been through a relationship with a Sociopath and definitely considered writing a book about it as a way to help me recover. I got cancer not long after and entered a deep depression and a type of loneliness I have never experienced. I studied personality disorders for a year or more and it helped somewhat but it doesn’t really help the feeling of how pathetic you feel about your own self. As in how could I have been so stupid, so desperate that I continued on with it after seeing things that started not to make sense, and inconsistencies and blatant lies. He was good, very, very good…but I am not a stupid person. I will never trust myself again in entering into another relationship. I did go after him, got him fired and exposed him for who he was but I will always expect a retaliation at some point.
@@CopingwithGrattitudeI'm really sorry that you went through all of that. It's incredibly challenging
He had to do a lot apparently to dissociate himself with Donny Dunn and to see it as an external experience rather than his own. He also used it as a means to overcome his failures and insecurities by confronting them and seeing himself as a flawed, fragile human being who made a whole lot of mistakes that he was willing to accept. He clearly has a great psychiatrist to end up being able to make such a series. Martha on the other hand seems to be still struggling with the underlying aspects of her own trauma, and the personality disorder(s) that have arisen from them.
I love that you discussed this series and especially discussed how victims aren't always in a position to run away, not just physically but also mentally, from their abusers. Thank you for doing what you do, Dr K!
Thanks, Nihu!
This review gave me so much freedom for having lingering feelings for my former abusers. I have struggled with those feelings and have been very hard on myself for having them. Thank you!!
I so agree with you, I'm so glad you said that you don't see mental illness in Donnie. I've been thinking about that a lot. People everywhere are saying he's mentally ill. I doubt that in the extreme, what I see is someone shy, English (! don't speak up), male, lack of self esteem and, going through an extreme episode. I would have lost my lolly way before he would!
Scottish, you mean?
@baintreachas You're right. Scottish. The UK folks can be very guarded emotionally.
@@LyndaHill honestly i misread this the first time and thought you were calling being English a mental disorder- but yeah, stiff upper lip and all that
Oh heaven forfend :) I lived in England many years ago and love it. And the English, but they could do with some loosening up. @baintreachas
I haven't seen the video yet but I froze when I was watching the assault of donny by darrien. It happened to me a couple of months ago, not to this extent in any way but similar. I went down similar rabbit hole that donny did after the assault. This show made me realise that I am not alone.
I'm very sorry this happened to you!
Believe me, you are not alone 💙
You deserve love and support and healing
Sending you good vibes over the interwebz. You definitely aren't alone, and in nk way was it ever your fault.
@@salomealhusami594 thank you for your kindness ❤️
Same here. It was an intense scene to watch. It also rid me of some self blaming. The journaling of my thoughts and side of the story- coping mechanism down to the T. It's terrible but I still give him a thank you for sharing how raw it is for the victim. I'm sorry you had this experience.
The ending with Bartender was a great way to free him from shame and guilt. Donny probably felt as if Marta’s actions were his fault, but in reality, he was showing kindness (as the bartender did with him), but he did it to a person who was not well mentally.
I think this is spot on
I thought the ending was so powerful, when he deletes the police-requested timeline and replaces it with those two lines about how he felt the moment he met Martha. I interpreted it as him finally centering himself in this experience. Up to this point, Donny had prioritised Martha's feelings (arguably) over his own. The police had asked for evidence of what Martha had done to him. Donny erasing that narrative to replace it with HIS feelings, HIS interpretation of what had happened felt like a really powerful moment of taking back power and placing himself back at the centre of his own life.
Such a stunning show.
I never was as frustrated with Donny as with his friends and family's inability to see that if someone is acting that weird something is going on. Dude was a mess, he needed help the whole time. A person who goes back to a stalker/abuser is not stable. He was screaming in silence.
As someone who has a very hard time setting boundaries, this show was really unsettling for me. I kept saying "oh no" out loud, at the edge of my seat. I've been working on that (the boundaries) for quite a while now, but it takes time and haaaard work. I recognized myself so much it was a really hard watch at times. Very real, very well done, very nuanced, so, so human. Thank you for your videos, Dr. Honda.
I am one of those too, I have allowed others to just plow through my boundaries or I simply lack the one necessary for a healthy relationship. I had to stop dating completely.
This was incredibly hard for me to watch, I felt numb and lightheaded when I watched this episode. I was sa when I was 18 and everything that was depicted in this episode hit home for me because when I was sa I kept putting myself in dangerous situations where I would potentially be assaulted again. It was so tough and I couldn’t concentrate the rest of the day. I cried and had to take breaks during the episode. But the show described the emotions after an assault so well. I really identified with it so much that I felt like I kept disassociating for the rest of the day. It was so hard and triggering but it’s so important for people to watch because it’s reality.
I had a really similar reaction, I also felt like I could forgive myself a little bit for the first time.
I interpreted the ending as showing how simple an act it was that he did that caused Martha to stalk him and when seeing it between “regular” people at the end it really highlights the fact of how mundane it was that it could’ve been anything and really wasn’t his fault.
But it WAS his fault for not respecting or relating to his spidey senses and not fighting the growing pressure she put on him. He could have stopped it. Been there done that. Hard but possible
@user-gu7kk5zk2b yes... victim blaming... its what we do here. I think you need to listen to Dr. Honda more closely
I am extremely glad that the BDSM thing has been mentioned. The truth is, when you are intrigued by violent dynamics and your sexuality is very kinky, you can bump into Darriens of the world. If you do it in your twenties and you have romanticised violence, you may end up in an abusive relationship and realise it a lot later just because, they tell you are not a good submissive, if you don't tolerate sth. They go on and make you feel guilty if you try to stop them in a session, because it's you that cannot take it.
YES! So many abusers hide as 'doms' in the BDSM community.
The HBO series from a few years ago "I may destroy you" takes a similar route, the protagonist is a British black woman, she also writes and plays the protagonist of that series that's also based on personal experience. I would say it was the gateway to "Baby Reindeer" and would strongly recommend it.
Yeh that was good too 👍
Great suggestion. Thank you.
I love how human and empathic is your channel
For me the ending translated as - I am in the same situation as the stalker, I can identify with the stalker, I can see where the stalker is coming from... but I am NOT going to do the same. It represents the fine line, the difference. Not all hurt people hurt others to the same extent. There is a line and we do not see him crossing it. Very healing message.
Okay hear me out...I personally appreciate the tone shift at the end of episode four because my go-to coping mechanism is humor, so going directly from experiencing something insanely dark to making jokes about it is what my journey as a survivor has always looked like. Within an hour of the first time I was assaulted as a teenager I was already making jokes in my head about the absurdities surrounding my assault. I totally get how weird that might seem but this element of the show made me feel very seen.
I agree with you! I also did not go into this hearing and thinking it was only a comedy. I felt the dark tones on some levels from the starting scene in ep 1.
was looking for this comment. how i’ve dealt with traumas like this in the past was always brushing it off and going about life as normal and like you said even joking about it to kinda convince myself that the situation i was in wasn’t so devastating. going through therapy i understand and see when i do it more now than i did then but this was honestly my favorite part of the show because especially with him having a bunch of partners and it seeming lighthearted that’s how i acted when i was at rock bottom. thanks for commenting this the validation was nice tbh
I get that. Experienced some gory complications after an operation, not knowing how to cope in the moment, I started making jokes that I found funny, just so I would laugh. Sounds insane, but I deal with stuff with humor.
@@UrsulaZA My therapist told me that humor is actually a very mature coping strategy. So, I congratulate myself for it and so should you lol
@@sophiemyers1035 thank you for saying that 😅 let’s be PROUD then
We don’t have to get into it but as a survivor, I threw up watching this show. There is nothing more horrifying than thinking (praying) you are in safe hands (especially on drugs, vomiting, so vulnerable) and having that sick realization that you are not in safe hands, can’t move scream or save yourself. The confusion, darkened by reality. Innocence dies.
Same . Sending hugs 🫂. I had no idea going into it what the show was about and how triggering it would be or I would’ve likely avoided. I cried through the whole thing . So many are confused or don’t understand his spiral , the return to the abusers and how complicated and clusterfucked it all got in his brain. But I sat there nodding through it because it all makes absolute sense. Those of us who’ve been there are in our own club of understanding I suppose
I’m so sorry sending hugs to you both… ❤
Wow this actually helped me immensely I have a long history of abuse, rape sexual assault and being dosed with extreme drugs without my knowledge. My journey almost ended with suicide until I started therapy about 17 years ago. Now I'm still experiencing PTSD symptoms but I'm in a marriage with someone who treats me like gold, working on a graphic novel that explores all of this and have a life I love. I def have come across that sadomasicistic type and didn't even realize thats what he was. The experience was soo dark and especially since it was a friends dad who claimed to be a fashion photographer. Healing from his acts has taken decades even to talk about it. If your reading this YOU can heal and there are AMAZING resources out there and therapists. THANK you for helping me understand my own experience's love this show sooo much.
My ex was like him. Cold on the inside but superficially charming. Hurt me severely, over and over. When we went to therapy, he always said or did something awful just before. So I looked very unstable and strange in every session. He has no remorse. Sadistic. Narcissistic. Then tried to send me love letters to guilt me after his abuse episodes.
😢
wow. when you talk about how a safe person might be who you have to set a boundary with because of an unsafe person. wow. thank you.
Yes. This is a well-known phenomenon in my profession. And I've personally been there before, so I know how that feels. It sounds like you do as well. If so, I'm so sorry that you went through that.
I think the meaning of the ending is realization that it wasnt his fault,he didnt do anything wrong for free 1 cup of tea.
I liked your review. Just one thing I've got to disagree with but understand your conclusion, having lived in both US and UK - the colleagues at the bar where Donny worked are very representative of a lot of British men, where the culture is one of 'harmless banter's. Of course it's not harmless but so many men take it to the extreme, with other men, who they actually consider to be friends. It's not seen as any kind of bullying in our culture, just boys being boys. Of course, it's likely received as bullying but again it's a cultural thing and most men pretend it's ok. In contrast, in the US I saw none of this behaviour, it's even frowned upon to poke fun at anyone. It's the total other end of the spectrum which kind of sucks the fun out of everything. I'm guessing somewhere in the middle but more towards the US way is better but not all the way. I can understand how someone not used to UK culture would find those characters cartoonishish but they are very real and very common.
When you talk about taking your power back after abuse, it reminded me of something I used to do when I was younger. I'd lose my memory when I drank a lot. I'd act relatively normal, but wouldn't remember the night. I'd often seek companionship and end sleeping with someone I met at the bar. I wouldn't remember the next day. If the person had left in the morning, I sometimes wouldn't even know what happened until I talked to the person again.
Looking back, I notice that when it happened, I would feel the need to see the person again, in order to have a mental image of what happened while I was black out drunk. So, to kinda take my power back in a sense.
Also, I was so ashamed of having one night stands, so by having s*x a second time, it made it less shameful to me.
32:06 As someone who has struggled for years to get the right diagnosis for a rare medical condition, it was one of the happiest days of my life when I finally got the pathological results 🙃
I really liked the song choices for this series, they were really clever and not too on the nose. I especially liked the scene when he had just found out she was a stalker, but then he accepted her friend request on facebook and _Happy_ _Together_ played. Also the scene when _Love_ _Is_ _The_ _Drug_ played, it was a nice contrast
I think it’s interesting that he legally punished Martha but not the other guy
That would be a near impossible case to legally pursue for a variety of reasons.
Unfortunately.
Look at how hard it was to get the police on board with Martha. If she had not been on a list for stalking a cop & had a record, it's doubtful the police would have cared.
@@theConquerersMama that’s true. I’m not blaming the victim. I’m not. And I can see how things can spiral. But he’s being victimized by two different people and pursued the guy who raped him. He pursued Martha too. He stalked her first.
He'd have to explain his voluntary taking of the guys drugs, whether or not it was fully voluntary.
If it went to court, it'd be a very uncomfortable situation, especially if he was accusing them both of stalking, mistreatment or manipulation.
I was also baffled why he went back to the male abuser, even though it was for business?
I might have to watch some parts again to fully understand.
@@margaretr5701 I agree. I need to review too.
Yeah R charges are very hard to get and don’t forget in that system homosexuality was criminal until not long ago in the UK so… would be very unlikely and be probably horrific as a process - that said I feel
Like someone like Martha is also a risk to a society equally eg. The violence
I've not seen Baby Reindeer and to be honest I don't think I'd be able too, however the way the presenter here has described the protagonist's mentality and after effects of the different aspects of abuse has helped me find words to express how I felt after my own experiences with both sexual and lack of bodily autonomy trauma that I've never been able to express before.
I've just emailed this video to my therapist so we can discuss this later when we start covering that aspect of my trauma work. Thank you for helping me be able to articulate something that was very difficult for me to experience and I've never felt like I could accurately explain to others
9:00 Thank you so much for being the only channel owned and operated by a man who I’ve ever heard say this.
I had a knife in my boot when it happened to me. But there were two other men in the next room who knew what was happening. I am so sick of being told I should have killed a person.
I remember when I was a teenager, I had a few drinks, & a man I thought was a friend, waited till I was asleep. He assaulted me. But because I got sexually aroused, I thought it was my fault sad 😢 I know now it wasn't.
😢
Getting aroused is natures way to protect your body/private parts from being hurt, internally damaged and so on. Nature helps you in strange ways and it is not abnormal, even when rape happens.
Horrible to endure this all and on top being confused why you get aroused, even when assaulted.😢
The body has built in respondents, the amgydala has built in respondents; dna has built in respondents...it is shameful how it has tried and actually been able to weapons to an ignorant audience or panel.
Thank you for reviewing Baby Reindeer.
I think the message of the ending scene was that he blamed himself for the Darren stuff and also blamed himself for Martha, like thought giving her the free drink was a really dumb move on his part and started this whole thing. But once the guy does it for him he realizes it's just a nice gesture and he shouldn't have to blame himself for all that. That's what I interpreted anyway.
Oh thx for this positive interpretation..desperately needed a little respite on this dark subject matter...but wait, it means it could happen to any one..oh no..there we go again..😅
I think the ending just shows that human kindness continues, regardless of the evil he had experienced, there are still kind people out there and things can possibly get better.
I would love for you to go over him going back to Darrien at the end- I interpreted it as Donny trying to understand how Darrien viewed him. Trying to make sense of his experience.
Was he complicit?
was he a victim?
Was he a peer?
Did Darrien respect him and see value in him other than someone to exploit?
Did he have any real value?
Please talk about that more if you can!
I’m also beyond confused with this part. Why was Darrien not angry/afraid of having been exposed publicly by Donny, since he had watched it? Donny just had to say his name and Darrien would go down bad, yet Darrien didn’t seem to be afraid/angry at all.
Secondly, why did Darrien offer him an “actual” real job this time? And why did he say he wouldn’t SA him anymore? Just to keep him close? Try and Control him not to turn him in since he was giving him a job and he could take it from him?
Also , did Donny really accept the job and worked with Darrien then?? I can’t tell…
I think you broke this down so well, personally I found these experiences to be deeply and painfully relatable, even as a female victim of both SA and stalking I've never seen a piece of media represent these topics as realistically as this show has.
The element of his bisexuality and his reflection on his own sexuality I also found to be a strong element, then the fear, shame/embarrassment, feeling victimized, alone, and terrified of intimacy.. It all was so raw and more relatable than anything else I've ever watched covering these topics.
A lot of elements in the show rang true for my own traumatic experiences, I was groomed as a teenager by an adult man I met through an internet forum for teenagers with depression where he was a mod. Then I had a period of hypersexuality during the start of my adulthood, I ended up in a healthy relationship but after that relationship ended someone I'd went on 2 dates with violently assaulted me in my own house the week before covid broke out.. The years afterwards I lost friends, sought out therapy, felt angry, isolated and unseen, during that time I also ended up being stalked by not just one but by multiple different men (2 following me home after trying to approach me as I was walking down the street at night, one of them tried to force his way into my apartment at one point, and another one sending me obsessive delusional texts from different numbers over the course of several years).
Richard's character Donny talks about feeling like people out on the street could see that he was assaulted, like it's a stamp on your forehead, he ponders if his empathy makes him an easy prey, those are thoughts I've had far too often.
I can't say how incredibly validating it is to see another victim portray their story, tell the world and for the world to listen, because quite honestly most of us don't feel seen or heard, a show like this can contribute to so many important conversations that I'd gladly have if people allowed me to pour my heart out a bit.
Lots to process, one thing though, just a thought. The scenario where Donny begins dating and abandoning dates, that you described as cartoonish? I think was a scene used as a juxtaposition against the backdrop of extreme abusive disfunctionality that he had experienced and still was experiencing, it was a way of showing how terribly he had veered off course into very dangerous territory, extreme unhealthy lifestyle and the inability to relate to 'ordinary' people with 'ordinary' lives and conversation. Starkly different, I feel it was a tool to represent this.
I haven't heard this show spoken about as a comedy. It's a tragedy about a Man who happens to be a comedian...
I am off low, baffled that it was described as a dark comedy. There’s literally nothing funny about this entire show.
People say it's a comedy???
😮
If I'm remembering, correctly classical comedy has an element, of tragedy and bc thus, '🎭'
2 things about this episode 4 I find impressive:
How extremely good the actor depicting the abuser is.
How sweet, smooth and soft spoken this character is. He does horrible thing in a very gentle manner which is absolutely horrible.... Abuse is often happening that way😱😱😱😱
You're right the culture is ready , being post me too. It takes the culture exactly where it is. It is a mirror. There is still so much to do.
Thank you for your analysis, it helps the conversation so much... It's so important...
So much great insight and layers added with your commentary - thank you! But you didn't include the part where she explains why she calls him Baby Reindeer! That was the part that got to me, emotionally. Is that just me? She talks about how she had a soft toy as a child, and it was her comfort when she was lonely and "when they fought. And they fought a lot". Just those few words bout her childhood, and you could sense the deep trauma she suffered. The reindeer toy was her only comfort, so she named him after it
Thanks, Louise!
this show just felt so raw
Darrien types are rare, but much easier to find in the entertainment industry. Yes, yes yes
I was hoping you’d talk about how he started to feel sexual attraction to Martha
Was hoping for that too. No one has spoken about that.
Well, before that they showed us him typing in the word "extreme" on a porn website, I'm thinking he developed a fascination with CNC (consensual non-consent) and from there fell into taboo sexual habits as a form of self-punishment or as a means to feel in control. It reads as him having perhaps have had a sex addiction, from sexual encounters with numerous people, unsafe encounters, watching porn he feels bad about all the way to him imagining sex with his stalker.
Perhaps the sex addiction was just a result of a hypersexual response after sexual trauma, or those imaginations were to make himself believe that he wanted these things as a way to feel less victimized. I'm betting on a combination of both but definitely the latter as he does go back to his assaulter to work with him again.
It might have been a way of regaining the control as well.
Lack of messages caused a fear of unknown and of unpredictability. (Can't tell how she feels and what she's up to)
When he imagines $xual act with Martha, at the comfort and safety of his room, he is the one dictating all the conditions. She can't hurt him this way. Therefore he is taming his fear by exposing himself to the fear factor in an enviroment that is actually safe.
@@gdzie.pieprz.rosnie it could be and it might not be. So many people are desperate to find acceptable solutions to Donny’s behaviour to make it more palatable. We all want to believe that he is the victim.
@@Nat_Ash_Awell... Because if he told the truth, he IS the victim
Hi Dr. Kirk!
I think the tonal shifts are a really nice touch. A lot of victims feel this intense fear, anger and sadness based on their trauma but cover it with a light-hearted more comedic persona to others. It's like the saying the funniest people are usually the saddest or something along those lines. I think it's supposed to be jarring because typically we don't deal with that level of emotional swings. But in the eyes of a victim that has to still maintain their life, it becomes more of a play or comedy and that's their only form of control. It should leave us feeling uncomfortable. It isn't normal. But for Donny, it's how he combats his victimization without stumbling into a deep depression.
I appreciate your takes!
I hadn't watched this show until I saw you reacting to it. 1.) I appreciate the large trigger warning in the beginning. I have dealt with both stalking and SA and felt safer knowing mentally what I was preparing for I was also able to prepare myself and walk away during the SA scenes. As you mentioned, even if you've done tons of therapy like I have (and in my case am now a therapist myself) it can still be extremely triggering. 2.) I don't think anyone has phrased it so well that "if I can keep my eye on the abuser...I'll know when it's coming". This was my experience with stalking. At least if I was in contact with them I knew what to expect...in a way. But without that it's the paranoia of sort of looking over your shoulder and waiting and constant fear. 3.)As always, I appreciate your kind and compassionate way of talking about the victim and helping others to see the complexity of human nature when viewing their abusers. 4.) Overall, thank you. You're doing great work by discussing this and expanding, and even changing, other's perspectives about these very difficult situations.
I took the ending to be a realization that a truly kind gesture wants nothing in return. No expectation of a tit for tat transaction (Darrien). I think he also realized a kinship with Martha in that moment. Donnie will never have a kinship for Darrien.
The 4th episode was horrible. I wish I never watched it and really listened to your trigger warning. I didn't. But I didn't know that the sexual assault happens when Donny is drugged. That is what gets me every time I watch or read a rape scene with a victim who is under the influence.
What got to me was when Donny said in the voice over that what is driving him mad is that he doesn't know what exactly the bastard did to him when he was unconscious. That's because I was in the same situation. I was drugged and out during a mania episode, and to this day, I don't know if anything was done to me while I was unconscious. It's a question that's been haunting me for 6 years now. 😪
I hate when sometimes a murderer will say that it was “bdsm gone overboard” when they literally murdered someone. Bdsm never includes hurting someone. It’s just murder, and they’re trying to make up lies. Unfortunately it seems like sometimes people believe them.
This series was so raw. While i absolutely loved it, fantastic dipiction of trauma and how us as humans deal with it. It was very relateable and helpful to see Gadds experience. Especially with the retraumatising and self loathing. I am usually pretty good at mindfulness and self regulating, aware of triggers but the content that happened in ep 4 as you said its very triggering. After the series i couldnt stop crying. My partner didnt understand and it lead to me admitting to him the next day my own experiences which was good for our relationship as id been feeling guilty for so long that id held that id hidden it from him.
40:10
Did he actually get back in business with him or was he placating him one more time so he could get away?
To me it felt like he went to face him but then fear took over so he just said what he needed to say to get out. I don’t know. I am genuinely curious to know if most people thought he was actually going to work with him again.
I have seen one comment saying he must by lying because he went back to work with his abuser. One, stfu to that person & two, we don’t know what actually happened afterwards or if that scene was something he really did in real life.
Omg Dr. Honda is the first person to mention Irréversible in relation to this film. I keep bringing it up and no one knows what I’m talking about!
It’s the first film I saw that haunted me like that.
Yes. Humberto and I reference this movie as the toughest to watch. Brutal.
I went to see it at an independent cinema in Newcastle. I was triggered by the middle act and left to use the toilet but the audio was being played in there as well! At least I knew when it was safe to go back in! It is a film which gets free rent in the minds of most viewers.
@@PsychologyInSeattle and your feelings about it are so similar to mine. It’s something that imprinted on me. Beautiful but yes, brutal is the right word.
@@beckypadgettwillson3656 I sometimes don’t read the description of films and just watch them because I want to have no expectations. That’s how I watched both of these films. And I watched Baby Reindeer before it got viral spread. I’m now wondering if I should stop doing that! 🙃
Brilliant anylsis of the show! I Learned so much about about the complextities of both the characters and perpetrator. Thank you for using your platform to talk about difficult issues and the discussions in the chat.
I feel so sick. I've been trying to watch the episodes, but this definition startled me. "What is Machiavellianism? Machiavellianism is a personality trait that denotes cunningness, the ability to be manipulative, and a drive to use whatever means necessary to gain power. Machiavellianism is one of the traits that forms the Dark Triad, along with narcissism and psychopathy🥺
Thank you Dr Honda for watching and recapping because God knows aI can't.
This movie deserves a Oscar
series
Dr. Honda I want to thank you for covering this series. I started watching it when I saw part 1 of your video.
I still have questions about why he went back to his abusers house? Was it to conquer his fear? To regain strength? Or was it showing he was falling into the loop again? I couldn’t tell if the producer had bad intentions.
Thank you for your insight and knowledge!
This man deserves all the awards ! 🎉 kudos to him and he's bravery
I've watched all 3 videos and they are so incredibly valuable to watch. Thank you!
Question about a lesser theme in the movie and even in your commentary- in situations like this, why is the pain and experience of the female partner who was cheated on throughout the relationship,lied to and exposed to life-threatening disease thru his behavior, not acknowledged?
Obviously, Donny is victimized by the horrific rape and then descends down a spiral of sexual deviance as an extended reaction to his trauma.
There is no empathy for his (prior) girlfriend in your remarks- you chastise her for expressing her desire for intimacy.
His double life could have brought about great pain and suffering for her and in the case of black women, specifically who disproportionately are infected by HIV & AIDS by dishonest partners living secret lives, this is a huge issue. The movie ultimately portrays this woman and her mom as selfless martyrs who love him and help him heal- and that is the trope and behavior that gets rewarded when it comes to men who are struggling with double lives and wrestling with their sexuality.
Their female partner is a prop in their growth and healing vs an victim as well.
I know there are much bigger and profound messages and themes in the movie and in your analysis... but everything else is so well-covered, this trope sounds and feels not right.
And to be honest my commentary isnt primarily about this film or analysis but this common theme that centers a man and his sexuality/needs and suggests that good women... or non homophobic women should suppress their needs and feelings (even for basic health and safety) to support their queer partner and thats what being a good person looks like.
It's a trope that dehuminizes the woman, subjegates her needs, and right to safety in the service of some "greater good"- his needs.
I know Im putting a lot into a very small part of the story or analysis, but I never see this acknowledged out in the media and was curious what others think.
I know hurt ppl hurt ppl, but where is there the accountability to stop the hurt and not ruin another person's life? Everyone in this movie has likely been victimized horrendously- we are watching the point in time of the main character's victimization story (and the ending entonates that he may ultimately become an offender as well)
Also I hope you guys can catch my nuance here and know that Im not victim blaming. I feel tremendous empathy for Donny. Im just asking about the gf Neely. It's clear that it's written for us to feel empathy for Teri and see her as a victim. Her character is carefully written to show her as a full, healthy person. She ends up happy and in a relationship with someone else by the end.
The tropes of crazy fat woman and selfless/sexless/doting woman of color did bother me a bit though.
21:30 to 23:30 Appreciated your comments on trauma, sexuality and kink. I like the door metaphor you use.
I was on GHB for a sleep disorder after trying Everything else. Got it from a doctor in Seattle. It’s called Zyrem, or Xyrem. After taking it I was Fully Awake and couldn’t move at all! I was Sure I was dying, and couldn’t move at all. I couldn’t speak. Nothing.
😢😢😢
Thank you Dr Honda yet again you knocked it out the park. I was so excited to see you covering this because your analysis is on point and opens my mind in so many ways, this one touched me particularly. Thank you so much. Richard gadd is such a brave person for being so raw and I applaud him !
Interesting that you mentioned Irreversible which (as an avid horror movie fan) is still the most disturbing and horrorifying film I've seen. The scenes in episode 4 did remind me of Irreversible with the nauseating psychedelic film style and palpable fear. Baby Reindeer was far less crass and voyeuristic than *that scene in Irreversible and I really appreciated that.
Episode 4 resonated hard enough and was beautifully done
In some moments I literally saw my abuser in "Darriens" face. The same grooming techniques. This was a very hard episode to watch for me, although I thought I processed it mentally well enough.
Very triggering.
Thank you, Dr. Honda for reacting to this and making it easier for me to cope with what I just saw.
So well said! Thank you Dr. Honda 🙏
ugh it would disgust me if my partner would not respect my „i‘m not feeling it today“. And i would never say something like „shut up“ to my partner, if he isn‘t in the mood for sex.
i can relate to a lot of confusing actions by donny but I can't wait to hear what your take is on the last ep where he visits again 🤷🏻♀️
I was wondering if Donnie really got involved in the Cotton Mouth show with Darrian. I hope not. I don't think he said if he did or not.
On the edge of my seat for this series!!
Very glad you made the distinction between kink s&m and this! 🎉
thank you for covering this! i just finished this mini series last night and it was a wild ride
I loved the girl friend, Keely’s- mother so much though. She turned out to be an angel. And Keely, wanting the best for him. And Terri. Bless Terri.
Brilliant interpretation! I so appreciation your analysis and have learned for my work as a Life Coach. And I also believe we are all artists within...it's as if we are giving our soul a voice. Kudos!
In the last scene I felt he began to humanize Martha. He was possibly even feeling guilt for her being arrested. As a therapist, I often see very wounded souls having too much compassion for those that victimize them. “Who am I to…(fill in the blank) when look at me.” I sensed he would not become a stalker and likely have a hard time even showing too much affection out of fear that he is like Martha.
By the way, thank you for a great psychological review of this movie.
About the tone shifts comment, I do think the framing of the show as a comedy and the show having comedic moments is incredibly intrinsic to it all. It’s made clear from the moment that man is dancing in front of him asking if he looks like a phoenix and his narration says “When people ask me why I got into comedy…”
Dark ass joke to make, but it makes it clear that this IS his power. This show being a comedy show is his truth. That moment and him later cycling through his ridiculous dates, ratting on about scuba diving while he’s here as a coping mechanism for his horrendous assault, highlights the dissonant unreality of what he’s experiencing.
Comedy is as intrinsic to the show and him being a comedian is to the narrative, and the fact that he’s able to joke about any of this at all is powerful.
If this were a fictional story, he probably kills her in self-defense and stands up to his abuser. But I think the world needed to see every bit of this story and how it turned out. Not just this dangerous level of stalking, but the empathy he still had for her, the detail at the end of her childhood neglect, & the fact that he returned to his abuser, which is a real thing that happens and something a lot of us have questioned.
Also, if she hadn’t crossed the lines that she did, I think you might have a decent section of the internet talking about how awful he was, and the narcissistic tendencies he had. But he did acknowledge in interviews the mistakes he made along the way that maybe made matters worse. But he also had an excuse as well with what he went through with Darrien.
The story needed to be told through his eyes, & we needed to hear his emotions through narration for it to have the impact that it did.
28:40 - I get why as a viewer you dont want to go back to a light tone after the assault scene, but I feel like the tone is not about the viewer but about the writer and a way to take power back or away from what happened.
My mom is handicapped and it is not fun or funny, but we laugh about stuff that people shake their head at. Because if we dont laugh we have to feel the real thing. And sometimes we do, but sometimes we need to breath.
At 2:54 kirk mentions “there are safety mechanisms used during this type of sex . For example, there is a SAFEWORD used to STOP” if someone feels uncomfortable for those who don’t know. My husband had to explain this to me. Unlike in the show with Donny in S4E4. I was turned off by the title but eventually watched all episodes once I started and honestly I didn’t have any true deep thoughts about it one way or another until P.I.S. explained in detail. Thank you.
Irreversible is the only movie I have ever watched that I actually feel traumatized me. I saw it in the early 2000's and there is not a week that goes by that it doesn't pop into my head.
I also was so traumatized and felt it myself. Even after so many years, my body reacts and my vieuw on men in general is not positive.
Together with my own experiences, i really can not be with a man anymore. Even searching a man to do stuff in my home is very challenging. Humanity is horrible if you really think deeply what happens al over the world.
This movie was so raw..., like nature is.
Thank you for doing such an exellent job, helping people to deeply understand ourselves & one another
There needs to be a part 2 and 3. where 2 would be Martha's Pespective and 3 being that rapist character.. since we all now have established that no one just gets born a monster.
The real life Martha has come out with her perspective. She’s threatening to sue Netflix etc
Please don't give them ideas for how to exploit every last drop from this as studies do to often -- it would ruin was was great about this story telling.
The real Martha is being interviewed by Piers Morgan utube 9pm today !
Sometimes we keep going back to people who’ve hurt us. It’s easy to blame the abuser, call them psychopaths and claim we had no choice in the matter, but the truth isn’t that simple. Simplistic thinking does more harm than good. Abusers usually give something the victim yearns for so badly that the vulnerable person is willing to put up with just about anything to get their fill. Typically, the person gets victimized yet isn’t fully aware of this dynamic and is perplexed, ashamed, and feels utterly worthless because they can’t cut their ties with the abuser. In Donnie’s case, he is unable to get his emotional needs from a healthy loving relationship. Instead, he keeps going back to people who hurt him. Only by understanding why he does this, then learning to establish boundaries and addressing his needs within healthy relationships will the cycle end.
The writing of the endings as a therapy reminds me of I May Destroy you by Michaela Coel. This was a highly acclaimed show in the UK a few years ago. Worth a watch!
I always thought of myself as not a creative or imaginative person until I started doing nails. Then I discovered I do have an imagination and creativeness about myself. And it’s been very healing
Also I am realizing I want to rewatch the ending. I draw a VERY different conclusion than those of you who are suggesting healing for Donny.
I saw cycle of abuse and mistreatment and him continuining the cycle by likely becoming a Martha
I saw the same. That he might start obsessing over the bartender.
Gosh diddily darn it. I might have to sign up for netflix out of curiosity to watch this. Fascinating and great videos on it either way Dr. Honda
Thanks for pointing out S&M in the kink community is not the same as the sadism displayed by people who r@pe, and that the community at large does have safety mechanisms. It's far from perfect, people get through the cracks, but that's largely a result of greater societal issues (patriarchy, victim blaming etc) and the way the stigma limits victims abilities to self advocate
I’m honestly very confused and shocked that people are frustrated with Donny in the slightest… perhaps it’s because I have lived through similar things and have literally walked in his shoes, but I was not frustrated with him even once. I’m actually pretty triggered by seeing how frustrated many ppl are, even those that are mentioning that they’re glad to learn more bc they think they were wrong to feel frustrated after hearing dr. Honda explain it more, just bc it illuminates how most of society has probably felt about me in the moments I was most vulnerable and victimized in my life… ppl just don’t know/understand what they don’t know/understand, even if many weren’t even trying to be invalidating or cruel.
This show and your reaction to it has been so healing for me in processing and making sense of things that happened to me
Great analysis! I’m going to watch again and try to see yours and he commentators’ points of view.
Would love to hear your take on P Diddy
Thank you, I watched the whole of your series. It is very substantial. And thanks for the encouragement to write. I don't find it easy to start: there is also much shame from my side.
Thank you. I don't kink shame as long as all participants are consenting adult humans (even if they are a human in their fursona), but the key is consent. Remove consent and anything, no matter how innocent it may sound on paper feels gross.
Is there a chance that the person "Martha" was based on will have some sort of reaction to this series - restart the stalking, etc? (I haven't seen the whole series, so forgive me if it's all wrapped up in the end!)
The real Martha had exposed herself and given her side in recent days. She wants to sue Netflix.
Thanks! Well done. 👋🏻
Thanks, Distracted!
Dr. Kirk thank you for analyzing this show! When I first watched this series I had so much hope for Martha being a redeemable character because I’ve met quite a few women and have one person in particular in my life that I find very similar to Martha. Not nearly as violent or obsessive, but still very emotionally disturbed and probably in need of psychological recovery.
I’m going to view other videos of yours talking about Narcissistic abuse because there’s a huge connotation that Narcissists are evil, but I truly believe that in the case of Martha she isn’t an evil person. In fact in the end when Martha reveals the reason for why Donny was her ‘Baby Reindeer’ I had to take an emotional break to just cry. I think Martha is an extreme case of someone who is so deep in self-loathing and isolation that they self sabotage what they actually want.
I’m not fully aware of Martha’s narcissistic aspects, but I kept hoping that there would be a revelation that Martha and Donny have a connection through their trauma and kind of became a healthier thing for the two of them. Unfortunately that didn’t happen tho…
I think that as you stated at the beginning of this show that Martha is someone who needs help. And I’m curious to hear more of your thoughts on why Martha is the way she is. When Donny starts the show and says “I just felt sorry for her”, I too likely would’ve felt the same way Donny had. Martha to me looks like a person who needed a friend and it’s said that I think she can’t help but self sabotage.
I appreciate the shoutout to the landscaping / plant industry!