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It isn't just vocations where the Catholic Church has no idea what to do with LGBT persons. Consider rights issues such as housing, employment, and physical safety. The Church has a long tradition of papal teaching on human dignity...which is straight up ignored whenever the person's under consideration are LGBT.😊
Wow, so well argued. Churches are very good at articulating a sexual ethic theology that condemns all same-sex activity, but they are terrible at offering any meaningful direction on how same sex attracted persons are to live a life that is not lonely and isolating. As I see it same-sex attracted Christians are faced with a "Sophie's choice" of either being single and celibate for your whole life, or face eternal damnation if you succumb to love and romance with a person of the same sex. I made the choice to remain single and celibate. It has been miserable and I prayed for decades to become straight. I prayed to find just the one woman to whom I could be attracted enough to marry. (I never found her.) I prayed for enduring, long term friendships, but have learned that even the many great friendships I have are transitory and ever changing. Friends move away, friends get married, friends have kids and all these things take up their time and energy, rightly so. So friends are not the same as being with someone with whom you are permanently committed to "do life" together. I am now in my 60's and retired. I have kept my faith and love God, but there is no denying that I am living a lonely, solitary life. I thought obeying the church's teaching would lead to God's best for me and I would find the vocation you reference. So even though I have lived a chaste single life, that has not happened. It leads me to conclude that traditional theology is lacking. Yes I am well aware there is credible affirming Christian theology, but for any organization that adheres to the traditional teaching, they have to articulate how same sex attracted persons can live sexually obedient lives that do not result in the miserable, lonely life I experience. I do not recommend my life as model for anyone. Thank you for so clearly outlining the deeply flawed and unworkable instruction presented to same sex attracted Christians.
I feel for you and am shocked. I’m 66, Dutch, brought up Catholic, and not by church but by common society was thought that being and acting homosexual was wrong. I have always believed i was ok and therefore it was not wrong. I escaped family and provincial life at age 19 in ‘77 and in ‘79 came out. 6 Weeks later i had my first, Jewish, lover and i have never felt a mm that God was against this. I did not leave the church and felt that likely i was a better Catholic, the basis Loving church Jesus was to build on the Rock Peter , than most church leaders who were busy with anything but Love and saving the world. My faith has helped me to do certain difficult things in life like having ten foster children. I do not fear God. Your comment and life story makes me feel very sad. You could have made not only yourself but also someone else happy. Sex is not dirty. My first lover died thirty years ago. I’ve had relationships since. Have met wonderful Gay people and am now again seriously involved with a Hindu man. The church with its dogmas is created by people. Please don’t let people’s dogmas further lead your life but the Love of Christ. To be frank, i don’t quite understand why you did not see that. It’s not too late. There’s a lot of 60+ serious Gay men out there that want to connect. For God sake reach out. Best is a dating site like Silver daddies. Look for divorced or widowers. They have proven to be serious. It’s Not too late. I wish you Love 💕 Louis.
Wow - thank you so much for the vulnerability in sharing! I'm so sorry to hear where the church has lead you! It's never too late to come out and start living life - I've known people who came out in their 50s and started families, or came out in their 80's and finally got married to the love of their lives. I believe in you!
Yeah man; it is lonely existence. As a deconstructing Xtian, I'm leaning more into Buddhist philosophy and hoping to reincarnate as a woman in next life to be with a man without all these trials of living hell. As for marrying a woman part; that's something completely abominable and unnatural to me as it would induce me the disgust of woman forced into lesbianism or bestiality. I would rather die or butcher women forced into me. Never in my life would I pray to be with a strange flesh as women look like animals to me physically (sorry for being brutally honest, but please do bear with me). I love men only, and I'm not lesbo (woman trapped in gay man's body ehh). Take heart, dude. ❤ Perhaps all these suffering lead to better reincarnation who knows xD The harsh fact: most heterosexual activities are also immoral, biblically. Who knows; those who persecute us could also reincarnate as lesbos or animals and suffer in the next life as their due?
I recently came across this amusing comment on TikTok: “SSA is ass backwards in more ways than one.” Very well-presented video. I first discovered you through the “I tried to be straight” podcast. Although you’re years younger than me, I genuinely admire your journey. At 29, I still grapple with genuine self-acceptance, having endured years of self-hate. While I didn’t grow up Catholic, many of the experiences you described in this video resonated deeply with my own. I felt defective and evil, regardless of my efforts to be straight, or at the least less gay. I'm moving forward with love for myself, and whoever my eventual partner in life will be, but it's still a struggle. I hope you keep telling your story and making videos like these. You may save somebody from the years of shame and pain I experienced.
Wow, that is such a powerful story, friend! I'm so sorry to hear that you had to endure that, but it brings me joy to hear that you're working on it and living a better life now! Whoever you find for a partner is going to be a lucky person :)
The Catholic message for gay folks: "sit in the corner and knit or play the organ for us - until you eventually die." I eventually became Episcopalian...
@@GayExTrad Thank you. It's much like Log Cabin Republicans: how many years do you want to beat your head against the wall before you realize that you're not welcome?
@@markgreene3483Mayor Pete, now secretary of transportation grew up catholic and married his husband Chasten in a Episcopalian church and are the proud parents of 2 toddlers. Your loss Catholics
Im not gay but I go to a Lutheran Church and at my old congregation, there was this happy gay married guy I knew who was raising a couple boys. very normal church going family, put a smile to my face.
Dude, I came to the exact same conclusion years ago and was one of those closeted super Catholics just waiting for death/planning suicide. Once I truly comprehended that the Church has no place for me and that arguments for God's existence and the truth of Christianity are actually incredibly weak, there was no going back. I still have a lot of growth and healing to do but I have no regrets about taking this journey out of religion and would strongly encourage other young gay Catholics to do the same!
Please excuse the substitution of letters for numbers and other silly evasions. As you probably know RUclips gets very twitchy when certain words are mentioned. But not to demean or belittle your experience, but if you were planning your eventual su1c1de you weren't anything resembling a Catholic. A Catholic just won't check out early, because we don't know what experience, painful or otherwise, might be a Grace necessary for Salvation, a purgation, etc., that makes us finally and truly accept the redemption of Calvary. Please for the Love of Christ realise that there is more to life than what makes you hard. That thinking it is the be all and end all and basing your entire personality around it makes you a hollow shell of a man. Makes you actually a repellant and fundamentally untrustworthy person. Such a powerful obsession really does cut you off from the Grace of God and from the person you are meant to be and distorts your relationship with other people into something quite dark and unhealthy. Because it is such an all consuming passion. As for mistaking yourself for a one time Catholic, there are a great many people who join the the Catholic Church or indeed are brought up in it, who feel they are faithful Catholics in a state of Grace, but unfortunately formation and catechism has in many dioceses been so bad since the 1960s a lot of these people don't have a blind clue what the actual teachings of the Church even are. Don't even know what you are meant to do as a Catholic nor understand the Sacraments. So sadly they are deceived, and if not in a state of mortal sin are at the very least labouring under _grave_ errors and greatly imperiling their souls, and to say their priests and bishops are extremely remiss would be a spectacular understatement. For instance a shocking 70% of American Catholics attending regular diocesan parish Masses for instance did not believe in the Real Presence. Which begs the question of why they even bother. For as St Paul say "he who eats unworthily eats his own condemnation, for not perceiving the Body of the Lord, becomes guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord". Many people that go to Catholic Mass therefore arguably aren't faithful Catholics. Don't even understand what that means. I have seen analogous things in Protestantism, half of which now appear to hold to the heresy of Arianism, that is the belief Jesus Christ is not coeternal or otherwise inferior to God the Father. Which was rejected by the earliest councils but yet is an extraordinarily persistent and durable error. Traditional Catholics do a fair bit better and at least take catechism and formation seriously. If you care to understand where you might have been deprived of authentic Catholicism I would recommend the short and sweet _Catechism of St Pious X._ Preferably discussing it with a well formed Catholic or ideally a spiritual director who is a properly faithful Catholic priest. And saying the Traditional priests hate us in my experience just isn't remotely accurate. The priests at the FSSP oratory I go to are well aware I am a man that is attracted to men, that I regularly had sex with men till my reversion back to Catholicism just after Easter this year. But they regardless have been extremely compassionate, welcoming and understanding. The FSSP only says the Latin Mass and other Sacraments according to the traditional Latin missals and rites of 1962. So to say they are traditional Catholics is somewhat of an understatement. They are also in full communion with the Holy See. But they consistently tell me during spiritual direction and in confession that having attraction to other men isn't a sin, but that indulging it is, as would be say casual shreks with a woman. But that temptation isn't a sin, only giving in to it. Including not only external acts but also willfully entertaining fantasies, etc. I would be lying if I said it was easy. I regularly slip back into impurity, stuff that would make your hair curl. Without getting into gory details some of it could without exaggeration land me in hospital. But so far I have been able to resist actually sinning with someone else, and it is easier to resist the more time goes on and the more I pray and avail myself of the Sacraments. Everyone has their cross to bear and as Our Lord said "whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not fit to be my disciple". My wonderful priests constantly stress both in personal conversation and in their homilies that Jesus died for the Forgiveness of our sins, we just have to avail ourselves of this wonderful gift. And He knows full well how weak and fallen we are, so provides Sacramental Confession and Holy Communion. And also Purgatory as a final mercy if we do not have the strength to take the much easier path of voluntary penance in this life to purify our souls of the spiritual scars of sin which remain even if our sins are forgiven. So saying the Church just wants us as same sex attracted men to just sit in a corner until we die is not true, no more than saying it wants divorcees to do the same. No, She wants both to remain chaste and to participate in the fullness of the Christian sacraments. Because as I have said if you live a life of sexual obsession you are not living in Grace by living in bondage to your passions. At the end of the day you will also be utterly miserable and not get remotely what you want.
@cianmoriarty7345 yeah, thanks for the tip. I don't believe in any of that, nor am I interested in what you're selling, but if it makes you happy, then hey to each their own.
@FuddlyDud fundamentally, they lack evidence or contradict the data that we do have. If you want to know more, I'd recommend checking out atheist/skeptic channels like Alex O'Connor, Genetically Modified Skeptic, and Paulogia or scholars of the Bible/early Christianity like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan.
Thank you for your impeccable logic and honesty! Millions of Catholic straight couples quietly form their own consciences, ignore the pre-scientific, medieval thinking, and practice birth control. This is much harder to do for queer people, because we don’t blend in.
My husband and I are recovering Catholics who were raised in Roman Catholic families. When our parents found out we were more than college roommate, the reaction was apoplectic and it was as bad as it would get. My now husband's parents said it was a sign from god for my husband to become a priest. We were horrified, gave up on the Catholics, ran away to San Francisco in 1982, and lived happily ever after. We are together 46 years now.
@@DIBBY40 yes, but it took twenty years and the threat of never speaking to them again unless they treated David with respect and a equal member of the family. Sometime, time can heal old wounds…
Thank you for making this video. I'm a Catholic gay guy. Just turned 40. I understand your pain and your points. Yes, I cannot agree with church teaching and regarding how they minister and treat gay folks like us. But aside from that, I still derive benefit from the church. The sacraments, devotion to the Blessed Virgin, to St. Joseph, to the saints and angels. My spiritual and prayer life has been enriched by all of these including the rosary, chaplet of Divine Mercy, and writings of the saints, thanks to the Catholic church. Do I think the church should do more for gay people? Of course. Do I disagree and feel hurt by the church's stance that gay people should either be in a mixed orientation marriage or remain celibate for the rest of their lives? Most certainly. I am against spiritual abuse and bigotry. I thirst for genuine change within the church. But at the same time I cannot negate all the good things that the church has done for me. For me, God is not homophobic. This might sound strange or ironic for some but I genuinely feel the maternal presence of the Blessed Mother, the paternal care and presence of St. Joseph and our Lord whenever I pray. I am wounded and hurt by a lot of the members of the church but not utterly destroyed. I thirst for genuine and lasting reforms in the church, and I call out her mistakes in the past and the bad things that she continually do to gay people but I am also grateful for the things she has done in my life especially in my darkest moments. I hope this makes sense.
That totally makes sense! Yeah, I think there can be so much good that the church provides in peoples' lives, and it sounds like you've been able to make it work - so happy for you!!
When you used the statement that "With God, everything is possible", it reminded me of a large billboard that is on the side of the highway between my town and the next. In very large print, it states "With God all things are possible". Every time I pass by that billboard I can envision myself climbing up to it and adding the words at the bottom "But not probable" to it. I too, have been a life long Catholic and I have to agree with everything you presented in this video. I also, like you, adhered to the Traditional Latin Mass, but now that has been taken away and I'm drifting without anything. I have found that the more I separate myself from the idea of "God", the better I feel about myself. Forty years ago, I went to confession and admitted that I was gay. I was told that "God's not going to forgive that because He can't". That was my last confession and I never went back. That confession remains as an open festering wound that never heals. I prayed my ass off begging God to heal that wound, but nothing ever changed and I have lost any faith in prayer. You packed so much thought and information into this video that I had to watch it three times in order to absorb most of it. You have a way of being able to articulate what I can often only feel. I loved the church, but feel that I also suffered irreparable from it greatly too and the farther I can put distance between it and myself, the less mental pain and suffering I experience. THANK YOU for these videos. In a non religious way, you have been a blessing to me.
You were given bad advice…once. Doctors do that too, have you stopped going back to them? Come on, I know it was hurtful, and was so out of that priest’s ignorance. But as someone who has suffered the same, and for the same reasons, I have to advise you that you just have to get past it. For some reason, we can’t let go of that one time we were hurt by a priest’s bad advice, but let any other profession, legal, medical, etc. do the same and what do we do…look for another opinion. Just because they are a priest doesn’t mean that advice they gave you that one time was right, go talk to a priest you trust and you trust because they’ve demonstrated some pastoral acuity and understanding!!
"God's not going to forgive that because he can't." Proof positive that the Catholic Church believes deep down that merely being gay i.e., having deep seated homosexual tendencies, is the unforgivable sin! 😠😡😡🤬 By believing that they have conceded the point to John Calvin that some people are predestined and automatically consigned to the infernal place and not the celestial North Korea called heaven. What sort of god would do that? To me it shows that Christianity itself is intrinsically evil because it worships a sociopathic god. Plus Christianity's track record is terrible, it's absolutely terrible. If you ask any Jew or Muslim what they think of Christianity they'll give you an earful!
Dang, I'm so sorry that happened to you! The unfortunate reality is that to go back to the church would mean enduring that sentiment and having more of those negative encounters. There's soooooo many better churches/religious groups out there to join than catholicism. I'm so glad to hear that my videos are helping!
I am not trying to play gotcha or something, just an honest question. Why did you never go back to confession? Did you take the priest at his word? Or did you think that every priest would say the same? Did you try to go back?
Its almost funny how Catholics are virtually Pragmatists when they talk about their religion, until suddenly the topic of gay marriage comes up. Suddenly Catholics are not Pragmatists at all! Anyway, I joined the Patreon - the world needs more content like this!
I just read your profile. I sense you are Théy essential Catholic as in the beginning of that loving church build by Jesus on the shoulders of the Rock Peter. Beautiful culture, developed over centuries, like music, the ‘Virgin’ adoration, the Saints that in many ways can be examples to us but most of all, believing and knowing nothing for sure which leads to mystery, not dogmas are for me, a Gay man of 66, a reason to have never left the church.
As a former Catholic I can attest to everything you've said. The hours of prayer, eucharist adoration, apologetics, bible study, and self-driven conversion therapy - I didn't know anyone who spent as much time as I did trying to square the circle. It wasn't until I broke away, and found peace in myself that things started to turn around. In a lot of ways, if I'd described my dating life and marriage, but left out the gender of my eventual spouse, I'd be the model of the Good Catholic who got married and remained faithful. Years later my conservative father is trying to get me back in the church as if anything has changed. I recently attended a funeral mass for a family member and was shocked at the language changes to the Mass ritual. Somehow the Church has become MORE exclusionary in the last 10-20 years than it used to be. No longer was Christ's blood shed "for you and for all", but now just "for many." Even if the Church suddenly became welcoming, I have too many reasons to NOT believe in the existence of an almighty creator. The one thought that has haunted me my entire life is the easiest way for me to explain my position: An All Powerful, All Good, All Knowing Creator would be horrifically EVIL to create a universe where they would condemn the plurality of their creation to eternal torture to uplift a minority who's only purpose is to worship the being. The mindset behind these beliefs are the purest definition of tribalism: the Other is to be feared, condemned, and/or converted. Even as a flawed human being, if I were able to program conscious beings in a simulation, I would have no need for those being to even know I existed. The whole purpose of their existence, from my perspective, would simply be for me to see what THEY achieve independent of my biases and expectations. I would have no need for them to recognize me for creating their simulation. What need would an all-powerful creator have for constant eternal adoration? Only an egomaniac would need something like that.
Wow - thank you so much for sharing! It sounds like you were also in deep and have really thought about this. The church most certainly has regressed in the past 10-20 years as more and more people fall away, what remains are the most radical people who then control the church. I suspect it'll keep going down hill. And great points on the flaws in god's existence!
@@GayExTrad - If Pope Francis dies or retreats, it’s very likely that a next Pope comes from Africa. I’ve spend a greater time of the last 17 years in east Africa, Ethiopia to be exact, and i can assure you that things will definitely regress and will be mirrored after their extreme conservative culture and turn 180 degrees on what Jesus would have wanted. Like in our middle ages. Gays persecuted and hetero men making children with several women and not properly look after them coz thát’s their culture and thát the church condones.
@@AmbiguouslyGray - With recognition of both your gender you are the perfect basic loving Christian which is Catholicism in it’s roots and here in the Netherlands, although indeed most bishops were appointed by the Polish and German Popes due to their conservative beliefs, most priests are rather progressive. They certainly did not change the text towards type mad exclusion in which the Lord’s blood was shed just for the ‘happy’ few. Might be an American thing. The almightiness of God was proclaimed by church leaders. Likely during the council of Nicea by emperor Constantin. A nice tool which the nobility via a Pope could use to keep the illiterate masses under control. Yet as far as i know Jesus never spoke of an almighty God. I’ve never believed in that. Don’t blame God for what goes wrong nor thank God for what goes well. For me that has always been superstition. For me God/Jesus is a lecture and example for how to make the best of things and i think that’s what the early Christians, without any dogmas meant to achieve with that early, Catholic, church. It all went a bit funny so yes, i do understand you.
I think sometimes we feel that we can understand why God does things the way he does. God is not a dictator. God loves you. You have free will. He’s a God of protection. And if we live outside of him, what may feel peaceful is not sustainable long term. We are going to have bad days, and understanding our existence in itself is mind boggling. But everyone who believes in God can’t be out of their mind…
I would never say believers are out of their minds. I would say that indoctrination that lasted your entire childhood, and built up weekly and annual traditions, have a powerful influence over you for the rest of your life. Especially when it can bring comfort during difficult times. How many believers do you think there would still be if we outlawed religion until you were 18 or 21? There would still be believers, but my circumstantial evidence would suggest in dramatically fewer numbers.
Wow, I was born and raised Catholic but damn I've never heard of anything like this. Kinda makes me glad I never had a super religious family. Conservative yes, but more in a libertarian sense. As homophobic as some of my family members might talk, most of them are actually quite chill. In particular, it was one uncle of mine who said something years ago that really stuck with me. "God wouldn't have given you a brain if he didn't want you to use it." Growing up, I always resented having the brain that I did because I could never simply accept something 100%. I always retained some level of doubt. But as I've gotten older I've come to see it as much more of a blessing than a curse I'm not Catholic anymore except by culture(Mexican catholic on my father's side and Portuguese/Italian Catholic on my mother's side) and I don't really attend mass except for special occasions with family. I'm gay but that wasn't really what drew me away from the church. From the time I was little, I always struggled with the idea of hell and what happens after we die. When I was 16 and eventually met people from another country who were not Catholic or even Christian, I couldn't reconcile the fact that they were going to hell with the fact that they had treated me with so much more kindness and compassion than even my own family and friends. It wasn't really all at once or anything, but after that, I stopped identifying as Catholic. By the time I was 17, I completely lost interest in trying to be a part of that system. I said, "screw it, I'll find something that works for me." And I did. And I'd say I'm doing okay for myself after leaving the Church. My dad did guilt trip me into getting confirmed at 18 but I eventually gave up on even doing that after a while and I think he realized it was pointless. Now in my mid twenties, I can't say that life is easy. But at the very least, I don't hate myself and I've got good people around me. For me, that's enough of a reason not to be Catholic anymore I'd be lying if I didn't say there's a part of me that wishes the Church would change, but I have no such delusions that, even if it does happen, it will be in my lifetime. So I'm okay with how things stand for now. Regardless, I appreciate the perspective you bring to the table. It's nice to hear from other former Catholics about their experiences growing up gay in the Church, even and especially when they're different from mine
Thanks for sharing! Yeah, catholicism is such a varied/diverse experience - some families are great and just stick around for the culture, others go bananas with the rules. Whatever it is, I too hope for a day when the church can change, but in the meantime, I'm not going back - life's too good now. As you pointed out, once you leave religion, a lot of the self-hate goes away. Wishing you the best!
I'm a huge fan. I admire your mental clarity, the quality and strength of your arguments. As an older guy, from an older generation, I envy your youth, and your speed to transition from something (trad ? catholic ?) to ex-something. I was slower, and at your age I was more confused. Looking forward to your next installment.
Great vid! I think we also tend to underestimate the effectiveness of ‘ex gay or celibate gay’ propaganda by Catholic Church influencers. These propagandists pander mostly to heterosexual Catholics, and thats what matters when jt comes to keeping the majoriry of Catholics on board with official teaching. It doesn’t matter that 99/100 gays end up leaving the Church. So long as they can point to one or two people and say ‘ well see that persons says they’re happy being a gay Catholic’ or ‘that person says they were in the gay lifestyle and it was completely degenerate and demonic’ straight Catholics will have their preconceived biases confirmed. I mean, this even happens jn your own comment sections. Sometimes I wonder how many of these supposed ‘testimonies’ are actually written by anonymous Catholic propagandists that aren’t even gay. This has certainly happened with the ex gay movement. And also the influence of bisexuals. Ever notice how the Church never once makes reference to bisexuality? Ever notice how the preferred language of ‘same sex attracted’ over ‘gay’ allows them to not differentiate between gays and bisexuals? Its so they can use the bisexuals who then enter heterosexual relationships as proof that gays can be converted. Like yes , you are ‘same sex attracted’ but are you also ‘opposite sex attracted’ ? The evasion of the ‘gay’ label leaves that unanswered. Another thing I wish you’d touched upon is the reality of celibacy. If celibacy is so fulfilling, why don’t straight Catholics do it? If these priests were to go tell young heterosexual Catholic males they have to stay celibacy for life and never fallin love with or have sex with women, 95% of them would leave the Church. Yet these same people consider celibacy ‘just another burden’ akin to needjng to stay monogamous or something when you’re straight. But thats a false analogy. Demand that they stay celibaye for life and you’ll see how quickly their hypocricy shows up. Nice vid though. We need a lot more of this kind of content. You are the antidote to the ‘celibate gay testimonial’ propaganda of the Catholic Church. If they wanna use personal anecdotes as propagand, its only fair game for us to do the same ( though we also have science on our side when they don’t)
Very astute observations! I'm continually fascinated by the 'ex gay' catholic media machine. Like you said, the audience is always straight catholics wanting to hear that their hate doesn't actually harm anyone or that if their gay children just were better people, they'd come back to the church. And to your other point, I've never seen a testimony of someone say that they went from exclusively SSA to predominantly opposite sex attracted - it's always this vague language about how god changed them but they never actually say what they're trying to give off.
I’ve read that the Jesuits have ordained gays to be priests as long as they remain celibate. I wonder if these priests can actually remain celibate. It must be very difficult if they’re longing to be intimate with another guy
Celibacy is no different for gay or straight people. It is a choice. It is only difficult if the person doesn't have that gift. According to Paul, it is the preferred state, but if a person lacks the gift, he or she should marry. The only difficulty in monastic terms would be that the person is lodging with other men or other women if lesbian, and that could be difficult without a real gift for celibacy.
Yeah, many groups ordain celibate yet gay men against Vatican guidelines. The majority of all priests break their vows at some point throughout their life
I was raised baptist, but I can relate to a lot of this. When I confided in my pastor that I was struggling with reconciling my attraction to other boys with what the Bible says and the church teaches, his “advice” was basically that I’m being influenced by demons and to just pray harder for deliverance. It took me to some pretty dark places until I eventually walked away from the church and never looked back. Anyway, great video. Subscribed 😊
Thank you! I thought I was the only one struggling with this. You went through my whole thought process from the last 6 years (I’m 18 now but I started trying to follow Catholic teaching since I was 12, growing up in an extremely devout religious Latin family). You touched on every aspect of living the celibate gay life and the same thought processes I have had on how to reconcile my same sex attraction and gender dysphoria with church teaching. You said it betta than I could evaaaaa. Thank you, God bless you for all that you’re doing. You’re dissipating façades that a lot of “faithful” queer Catholic youth are self-inculcating themselves to hold fast to and self-internalize. I have decided that after years of attempting, I will not deprive myself any longa of experiencing romantic love and internal peace. I have only ever liked my same sex. Never once in my childhood did I ever feel bad about it until I saw socio-religious stigma and discrimination against us🌞I only felt guilty the more I brain-washed myself with anti-gay rhetoric, Catholic rhetoric. I still believe in God and all the dogmas of the church but I don’t believe that he will send me to hell for realizing an attraction that I NEVA had a choice in choosing! Periodt
4:15 The LDS church actually has some stats on mixed orientation marriages and they're pretty sad. At least 70% of them end up in divorce after a few years. Thats worse than average for newly weds in America
Loved watching that. Very well articulated and put together. Whilst much of the internal establishment differs from the Pentecostal tradition, a lot of the same motivations and views are found. I appreciate what you're doing to help bring perspective and understanding.
Thank you. I was one of those kids who tried so hard, i almost hanged myself. You put into words what i couldn't, but came to realize when i meditated in a psych ward.
Hey, I actually ended up finally coming out to my mom (a VERY traditional Latin mass catholic) and it's amazing how people like her only recite what they've been taught. She gave me the typical "it's okay, it's not a sin for having those feelings, but you just can't act on it" and the classic "it's an abomination". I guess before I saw this video I've always felt the exact feeling that you've so methodically laid out, I just didn't have the words to say it.. "they just don't know what to do with me"
The more faithful a Catholic is, the more of an NPC they become. Sorry to hear she had a negative reaction when you came out!! We’re here for you, friend 🙏
@@GayExTrad Hey thanks! That REALLY means a lot to me. The whole situation sucks bc it's like her brain physically cannot construct thoughts outside of her ideology, so it's impossible to engage in REAL CONVERSATION with her. I also wanted to say that it is SO comforting to know that I'm not alone and that there ARE other people who were raised just like me, on the extreme side of the faith in a household where listening to famous exorcists, prepping for the 3 days of darkness, and the unceasing praise of people like anne catherine emmerich was a daily occurrence. Keep making these types of videos for sure!
The Church does not forbid gay Catholics from experiencing love or forming close relationships. Loving another person, regardless of gender, is not considered sinful. However, it views sexual activity outside of marriage as sinful, believing that the proper context for sex is within marriage between a man and a woman. Both heterosexual and homosexual acts outside marriage are considered sins. The difference is that same-sex couples cannot marry in the Catholic Church, while opposite-sex couples who engage in premarital relations can eventually marry to align with Church teachings. Allowing a gay person into the priesthood, I think, could be seen as creating a situation that may not align with traditional expectations of celibacy, much like how placing a priest in a convent would feel out of place. Divorced individuals also cannot remarry in the Catholic Church. To me, this highlights the Church's consistency-it all hinges on whether its teachings on homosexuality are valid or not. I believe they are; you seem to feel otherwise. Have you heard of Opus Dei numeraries or associates? They are lay Catholics, yet they live a single, celibate life. They aren’t religious but secular. How do you see them fitting into your understanding of Catholic vocations? While most people are indeed called to marriage, there are also lay Catholics who commit to lifelong celibacy. You have missed out on so many nuances but I do feel your frustrations .
Thank you for the thoughtful comment and your input! Yes, there is some degree of grey area surrounding private vows, consecrated virgins, and other semi-vocations. The theology of these states in life seem quite novel and acceptance within the church quite dubious - but they perhaps come closest to what a gay person in the church could find as a fulfilling avenue of service while having some sort of institution/cultural recognition.
This is a straw man. Take the homosexual 'sex act' out of it. Can gay people now marry and have relationships? because you know, homosexuals' relationships don't revolve around anal sex. Plenty of them don't even engage in that. So are 'chaste' gay relationships ok? Of course not, because then you'll say it's a 'near occasion of sin'. And don't forget that the very ATTRACTION to the same sex is considered 'intrinsically disordered' aka ordered to that which is not good. So no, you lied when you said that 'falling in love is okay'. No it isn't. The Church considers it as a sign of disorder which. must not be indulged. Your theology is cruel. It calls the love gay people have for each other 'intrinsically disordered'. Shame.
Opus Dei have advocated breaking the seal of confession for gay catholics. They exploit the faithful in service of powerful ruthless authoritarians. They practice slavery under the cover of religion.
Hey, So I liked a lot of what you had to say, and I’ve certainly observed it in the church. Moreover I think we need more such discussions in the church. But my experience has been quite different in many ways to what you’ve described. I’m Catholic and have same sex attraction, and I absolutely agree the church needs to figure out what to do with people like me as the present way isn’t working. But I’ve also received a lot of love and understanding from priests and laypeople who know this about me. I am also celibate and have been for 18 years (I haven’t masturbated for that long either). Yes, sometimes I get frustrated and think “what if”. I still have many unanswered questions. But I know that what the church asks is possible, and I know that I’m much happier than I was when I was having sex and masturbating. I could never reconcile my religion with my attraction, so I chose my religion. I do have many good male friendships that I’ve had to work at (and the most important of these know my struggle). I know it’s only my experience, but I know there’s others like me. I absolutely concede your point that no one actually knows about what such a life looks like, and this is something I’m trying to work out how to address. I think the church needs to take away the taboo on having the attraction. And you’re absolutely right: I think of all the actual gay/SSA (whatever term you want) people I know personally, I’m the only one that is doing what I’m doing, so the statistics aren’t there either. Again, I can only give my experience, but I wanted to share as this is something very important to me though I guess I’m coming at from the other end somewhat. I’m really grateful for your video. I think it’s raised some very important problems that need to be addressed, and it’s nice to see someone seeing some of the things I’m seeing as well.
If it works for you, more power to ya! I appreciate the kind comment and you sharing your perspective - it sounds like you’ve built a great life that you’re content with. Maybe the world needs to hear more of your voice if you were to ever consider making a channel! I’d certainly subscribe. Many blessings to you!!
@ thanks so much for your reply. Yeah, I’m getting closer and closer to just going to my bishop and talking to him about it. I think of myself as a young Catholic and I would’ve loved to hear about someone that’s has experienced what I’ve experienced, but you just don’t hear about it. And no one wants to really talk about it. Thanks, maybe one day I will make a channel. If I do I’ll definitely have good discussion with you :)
I was raised Catholic, and the attitude of the Catholic Church, coupled with the abuse scandal, drove me to believe that religion was the cause of all evil. It wasn’t until I found Judaism that I found spiritual fulfillment and community acceptance of my whole self. That won’t be the solution for everyone (conversion is hard and takes years!), but it works for me.
@ from a Gay perspective, queer members are welcome in most synagogues, and same-sex marriages are performed by most rabbis. Also: debate and disagreement are built into the religion and we’re all expected to be able to respectfully disagree with each other.
And then if you look at subreddits like “SSAChristians” or “SSACatholics”, most seem like they are suffering from depression, spiritual isolation, and anxiety about/in their celibacy.
Yup - 'ssa support groups' are some of the most depressing comments on planet earth - and the worst part is most of their problems could be solved if they just stopped being catholic
I participate in these groups and unfortunately that is true. SSA is a huge cross to bear, but I'm sure their sufferings will be recompensated with the beatific vision of God in Paradise. 😃 That's my only hope, as I also have SSA. You cannot escape suffering on Earth because of the original Sin, only to choose it.
Thank you for this video. I'm very happy I left the church, and I feel more free than ever before; I am still religious, though I can safely say I no longer drive myself insane worrying about every inkling of thought that goes through me, nor do I feel like I was born as a disgusting creature for having "disorganized thoughts," etc. I'm happily in love with my partner, and I don't have to be alone for my entire life. Infernalism and the fear and control that is baked into it is truly a sick thing. I tried everything; I read everything; I attended classes; nothing changed. I still hated myself. Love yourself while you can, love those around you, and live your life. Don't allow the fear of this institution to control every fiber of your being; realize it for what it is-a controlling organization that cares nothing for you.
It really scares me the amount of people say they left church or they ex catholics, that is the THE worst thing you can do, your personal relationship with God/Jesus, Holy Mary, and everyone else is what counts. No matter what priests are saying, no matter what church opinion is, no matter anything, you are always part of the Church, you can always practice the sacraments, you are not forbidden to be a part of it, you can do everything what straight people do, Jesus loves us all no matter what some old pervert priests think. I am gay and I couldnt care less if my Catholic church thinks im sick or crazy, I know what I feel for the Heavenly Family and no opinion can change that. Never abandon church because someone thinks you shouldn’t be part of it, they have no clue. Just pray for them and yourself for the Lord to lead you, no one can touch you. Chastity? God is not going to unlove you if you find a person who you love. So dont worry about that, not even for a tiniest bit. Those who judge you and claim to be the best Jesus superstars are so delusional, and just because of their judgement only they literally negate everything they think they believe in, so they are basically no where. Have faith and it will be great
I was a cradle Catholic. I am abstinent, but the Church suborned suicide to me through it's doctor St. John Chrysostom when I was 13. He wrote that I would be better off dead. He wrote that I was worse than a murderer because murderers destroy the body where as gay men destroy the soul within the body. That led me to fear myself too much to have same-sex friends. That led me to devalue my life so that I felt cheated by God when he didn't allow me to die from my first cancer at 29. I was only able to have a male friend when I met someone who wasn't contaminated with the Church's evil. That's the only reason I am still alive.
I felt deep sorrow that you've left the Catholic Church but I hope that your belief in God continues. As a gay man and a Catholic Christian, I believe in true love which has no conditions. God has created humankind from his almighty love, a love which has no end because it's an eternal love. In my own experience, I asked God (through silent prayer) to tell me what I should do about my sexuality. The response I received was to keep being my true self, the person who God has created. It's my business who I am and I don't see the point in telling the whole of humanity. There's no heterosexual who feels compelled to shout out their sexuality so why is it important for many LGBTQIA+ people to shout it out. Nobody on this Earth has the right to call you or any other LGBTQIA+ person, a sinner. You may recall that God says in the scriptures that no mankind is called to judge others, only the Creator (God) is the judge. As my Catholic priest preaches, anyone who points a finger should be mindful of the judgement which returns to them because there's many fingers pointing back. None of my words can make you decide what is the right thing to do but I hope that somehow, the Holy Spirit. is speaking a poignant message to you through them. If this happens, Praise Jesus Christ. 🙂
Great content! I used to be on the front lines of this fight with the Evangelical movement, but there's nothing left of that work except an argument about the President-Elect
In the mid 90’s I was visiting Italy with a friend and his boyfriend who was a Franciscan (priest?/brother?) anyway he knew some other guys who were on staff at the Vatican. So we spent the afternoon there eating cherries with a room full of gay clergy and non-clergy Vatican staff.
The Catholic Church is quite clear on the issue as is Sacred Scripture and Sacred tradition which is backed up by natural law. We all have crosses to bear and fight to overcome. That being said I will offer prayers for you. -Traditionalist Catholic
“We all have crosses to bear” realistically, how would you respond if the church told you you needed to stay celibate for the rest of your life? If celibacy is so easy, and it’s just another cross to bear, why do people get married?
Well said. The number of times I've been told that the only "true love and happiness" that I could ever experience as a gay person was if I was pushed off to the side to remain single while the rest of those around me get married.🙄
I'm not Catholic, but I am a Christian. My first reaction was that just leaving in protest makes sense if a person loves God but cannot find a place within the institution. Being a Christian doesn't require institutional affiliation. But, I guess it is hard to leave for many who have been brought up Catholic, imbued with that sect's teachings. Your discussion here is enlightening. I'm glad to learn in detail about everything you have covered. Almost any gay Christian will have gone through this experience in most sects. The Biblical interpretation about homosexuality, rooted in heterosexual, patriarchal prejudices that stretch back millennia is hard to uproot. I am in the last quarter of my life, and as a protestant Christian, I had the same struggles you describe. I married a woman, had children (twins), and lived a celibate life in the marriage after the children were conceived. My reasons were spiritual. It is hard now after the children have grown. I have a disabled son, so I still have a reason to stay in the relationship, and as time goes by, all couples become more entangled in so many ways to make separation difficult. In old age, there isn't much in the world anymore to go to or hope for (though personalities differ). If I were young and knew what I do now, I think my life could have included a happy marriage to a man I loved, but so many circumstances prevented me, not least my inability to reconcile my homosexuality with my faith. But Robert Frost was right, I shall never be able to go back for good or ill: "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveler, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth; Then took the other, as just as fair, And having perhaps the better claim, Because it was grassy and wanted wear; Though as for that the passing there Had worn them really about the same, And both that morning equally lay In leaves no step had trodden black. Oh, I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubted if I should ever come back. I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference."
Love your content! As a gay catholic, I see myself in the experiences you describe. Just wanted to point out that there are some (not a lot, but they exist) active voices in the Church promoting a REAL inclusive approach to homossexuality, like Fr. James Martin, Sister Jeannine Grammick and others. If you are catholic, LGBTQ+ and not wanting to waste your life living in agony repressing the natural desire to be in a loving relationship, there is hope. The path is not easy, and most parishioners may not understand you, but there is hope for change. I am Brazilian, catholic, gay, in a relationship and part of a diversity ministry in my diocese. The Church is for everyone and there are people working for change. Peace and good to everyone!
While I can appreciate that your church is LGBTQ+ inclusive, I feel inclined to point out that no one is asking for churches to be for everyone. After all, I can't think of a single person that would be ok with a known child molester or murderer being in their church. However, it is well beyond the point where religion should've woken up and realized that there's just nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality. I don't care how many gay people you know that live what you would consider to be bad lives. There are plenty of gay people living wonderful lives. Enough is enough. I'm so tired of having to defend my sexuality to religious bigots.
@@ryanscottlogan8459 Not acordding to the Pope, which has supported their ministry in many instances. LGBTQ catholics exist, have existed and will continue to exist until the end of times. Hopefully there will always be people like them that make these existences bearable and meaningful. May God bless you and open your heart to the suffering of others.
@@scottmoore7588 You are right. This should be a non issue, whether you are religious or not. The Pope has recently made declarations in support of the legal protection of LGBTQ unions and made pretty strong declarations aggainst prejudice of any kind towards LGBTQ people, which is grave sin. It is sad that many people still use religion to hurt and to oppress others, specially when the main concern of he Gospel is with freedom, peace and universal love. I am sorry for all the bigotry you have endured. This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Sr. Jeanine Grammick has been plugging along with her message for the past forty years at least, bless her heart, and in all that time the church hasn’t budged an inch - indeed it has only doubled down under Pope Francis. Sr. Grammick will be long dead before even the slightest change occurs. All that work will have been for naught:
63-year-old gay, daily Mass going Catholic here, with the same man for the last 31 years. And thoroughly Jesuit trained. Let me try to help a bit, here, as you make some great points, but there are some very important points "missing". The Catholic Church does not have, at all, a "2,000-year-long history" of being against gay people. In fact, we had just about nothing, at all, to say about being gay until around the year 1100AD (that's a full 1,000 years into our Church). Cf., John Boswell (who taught me), "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality" (1980), and "Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe" (1994). These works of the utmost scholarship from original-language sources in our history put paid to the idea that the Church has "always" been against us. Not only is that not true, we celebrated "gay unions", in various forms, and for a long time. But while we're "waiting" to get rid of this "intrinsically disordered" nonsense (and that's exactly what Cardinal McElroy of San Diego calls it), ALL Catholics have a "nuclear option" which, of course, the institutional Church hopes we'll "forget". The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that your own CONSCIENCE is the "highest moral authority" and that "you have the right to act according to your conscience" and that "nobody should be forced to act contrary to their own consciences." THAT is the "highest magisterium" in this Church. And any pope, bishop, priest who tells you that that isn't so is quite simply and provable... wrong. (I quite simply, and openly, "ignore" the hedging that my conscience should be "upright and true", or "well-formed", as I AM the one doing the forming; you can't tell me my conscience is the highest moral arbiter.. and then say, "but only if your conscience agrees with mine"?) Thomas Aquinas himself goes as far as to say "a person must follow his conscience, even if it is mistaken!" Despite this lunacy that "the Church's Teaching never changes" - that teaching once said it was just fine to drown "witches"; to burn (even saints!) at the stake; and to charge money so you could get a rebate on the time you had to spend in purgatory (we lost half the Church to Protestantism over that gem of "Church Teaching" - ... it does change. And often. We can all find reasons for being separated from the Love of God; in the case of gay people like myself, many, many practical reasons. But my CONSCIENCE teaches me, before and above anything else, AS a Catholic. I hope this might have helped, if only just a bit. Peace be with you.
The primacy of conscience clause is virtually never taught in Catholic Churches. It might as well not exist, because for all practical purposes, it doesn’t. And by the way, I too knew John Boswell in New Haven. His monumental work is now almost entirely forgotten, as though it too never existed.
@@thomasniel2009 John left us much too early. Are we classmates?! I'm JE 80, Law 83. Of course, you are right on both counts here, but I was simply trying to give our younger brother an "out" (or an "in", depending on how one looks at it). I suppose, in the end, I think it's complicated, but not "that" complicated. As others below have noted, if the pastor at "that" church isn't welcoming, find one who is? Because so many are living (often willingly?) without the history Boswell gave us, or the primacy of conscience, doesn't actually make them any less.. existent? I mean, if one wants to find reasons to stay with the Church (I was baptized and confirmed into it, I'm as much a part of it as anyone else), we'll find them. And if people are happy just dumping on it, they're free to do so? Anyway, boola boola brother!
@@gerardmcgorian7070 I was in the grad school from 81-83, though I won't say which one here (not law). I heard Boswell lecture on several occasions and of course read his books. He lived in a high-rise apartment building right across the street from Partners bar where a good friend of mine lived and I saw him at the pool there and talked with him several times. It is sad that the church has openly rejected his work or found ways to contradict or demean it, as has indeed happened, but mostly it's just forgotten. More about Boswell: Did you know he spoke more than forty languages (including several dead ones) fluently and learned a new language every year as his lenten discipline? It's true. He told me so himself.
@@thomasniel2009- Than the church leaders are wrong but not the faith. Yes, living life reasonably free and happy does require independent thinking and research. And depending from which social/religious nest you come, also some tits and balls.
@@thomasniel2009 He and I were very close friends, he was actually my undergrad advisor, I majored in the philosophy of language, so, yes, I am well aware of his brilliant background.
Hey, I just saw your second interview on dragons of victory. really liked it. So why not interview him for a future episode on your show. You two have really good chemistry
Hello, gay Coloradan and former very conservative catholic here as well. I've had a partner for a number of years. When I say "former" I mean, I'm no longer actively engaging in the church, but I still live my life by much of the precepts in as much as I believe in doing good, "love one another", etc. I still consider myself Catholic, in as much as that is how my view of the human person and the world conform to most. But don't feel I've had a place in the church either. I have found personally, that much of the philosophical and metaphysical underpinnings and worldview of Catholicism make the most sense to me as well, in as much as justifying a reasoned basis to believe in Monotheism, the Aristotelean conception of knowledge and personhood, etc. Obviously, I've found that the moral evolution of Catholicism, especially in regards to the LGBTQ issues has been severely lacking, impractical and not keeping up with the major scientific and psychological developments in the area of human sexuality. And it seems unfortunately, that every time that those within the church whom are willing to make progress on the issue (such as pope Francis), are pulled back by the most conservative voices and members and beaten back into conformance. I'm curious to know where you are at currently in your spiritual journey - if you have completely abandoned a monotheistic view, joined a more affirming branch of Christendom, or feel more compelled to be an agnostic or atheist now?
Thanks for sharing, friend! I know many people that have remained in the church and found a supportive catholic community. I personally don't espouse a monotheistic view of the world and have left religion all together - one of the many ideas I have for future videos. Keep living your best lift, friend!!
Jason Evert. I would love if you did videos on him. He came to my Catholic high school years ago. I see that him and his wife are on the anti trans train.
Great video! I love that you pointed out the contrast between what the apologists say when they want you to become or stay Catholic vs what they REALLY think when they're talking to eachother. I'm tired of the bait and switch with friendly apologists vs insane statements from saints, popes, councils, and modern Catholics talking to themselves. The Catholicism of Peter Kreeft is almost a different religion from the Catholicism of Michael Voris. I also had no idea that that 2005 document says that gay people have a hard time making friends or relating to both men or women because of their sexual orientation. That is delusional and it's sad that people believe that.
Cade, having watched the 50-minute video with your story and now this one, I feel like there's a lot I wish I could talk to you. Your story is like mine but mine has been slower and not so polarized at such an early age. I'm a bit older than you, I'm 29, turning 30 in 3 months. I'm from Mexico (and to begin with, Catholicism in Mexico has a kind of different flavor and cultural and historical context than Catholicism in the U.S.) I guess that like you, there was a time I was so passionate about (conservative) Catholicism but never reaching to the radical traditionalist wing, which I see is more common in the U.S. In my case, it was thanks to my knowledge of english I came to know and be influenced by U.S. catholic media (EWTN, Catholic Answers, Bishop Barron, Fr. Mike Schmitz, Jason Evert etc.) Long story short, I'm currently on the phase of learning to accept my sexuality but not rejecting Christianity but rather reconciling them, and it has been mostly thanks to two things: 1) The constant hostility that conservative catholicism both in the U.S. and latin america has over Pope Francis (that kind of blew away for me the whole idea of the Catholic Church being the church with the pure and perfect doctrine that catholic apologists always said to be); and 2) knowing the Episcopal Church online. I see that in your case, your closeness to radical traditionalism gave you a very pre-Vatican II punishment-based view of sin and hell. In my case, I always suscribed to Bishop Barron's view on hell which was not viewed as a punishment but rather as a state of self-exclusion, even to holding to Bishop Barron's view that hell might even be empty. I guess that more balanced view on hell and sin has kind of prevented me from going to that extreme. I have slowly come to accept myself as a gay man thanks to the Episcopal Church. I was so blown away by learning that many of the beautiful things I loved about catholic worship, theology and spirituality are in the Episcopal Church while accepting and affirming LGBT people and relationships. Problem in my case, since I'm from Mexico, I only watch Episcopal Church masses online, which still give me a lot of peace. (Note: The Anglican Church of Mexico is not as affirming yet as the U.S. Episcopal Church.) I still think the Catholic Church can and should develop a much better pastoral approach to SSA/LGBT people even without changing its doctrine. I think that the document Fiducia Supplicans is a good starting point to that. But I agree with you that even with that, the Catholic Church with its current doctrine offers a very abstract and almost impossible life for SSA/LGBT people to live with, and I don't see a way how that doctrine could honestly change in a coherent catholic development of doctrine. That's why even Fiducia Supplicans needs to reiterate over and over again that doctrine is not being changed even while it is opening the door to a pastoral gesture that certainly made trads very angry. So I guess right now my question for you at the moment would be, have you ever considered exploring LGBT-affirming christian denominations like the Episcopal Church or an independent catholic church? Here in Mexico there's so very very few and small progressive christian churches. I envy a lot you guys in the U.S. that have so many great progressive and inclusive churches. If you allow me to recommend 2 books to you would be the books Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology, and From Sin to Amazing Grace: Discovering the Queer Christ, both by Rev. Patrick Cheng (a gay episcopalian priest from New York). Trust me, I was totally blown away by those two books. Anyways, forgive my long comment, it has been good discovering your videos and I hope they provoke some good thought and conversation for people on both sides of the debate.
@@carlosvillarreal6743 What an amazing comment! I appreciated very much the way you analyzed and responded to the comments made in that video. I don’t entirely agree with everything you said, but I do agree that it is very necessary for the Catholic Church to spend more time, intellectual effort and charitable service in working out a more humane theology that genuinely aids men and women who are SSA. I don’t agree that promoting SSA relationships is the way to do that - as seems to be the case with Episcopalians - but I do agree that we (as a Church first, and as a result, by the Grace of God, a society and culture) must become more understanding, compassionate, affirming of SSA individuals who are trying to work out how to live their lives as disciples of Christ. I make the analogy that we are all on a pilgrimage to God in this life. The road that we must take is not at all distinctly clear but St Peter is leading this pilgrimage and tries to shine a light on the path when it is dark. To make it even more challenging, we don’t all walk with the same ease. Some are more agile, others are more fragile and still others cannot walk at all. The destination, as it turns out, is not entirely about arriving to a point (Union with God) but largely about how we help each other on the way there. I’ll keep your efforts to that end in my prayers even as I ask the same from you. From the places and perspectives that the good Lord in his wisdom has positioned us, as far apart and distant as that may be, He can and does direct us to work for a common end, a common goal, a better world for those of us who are different than the ideal. We may never meet in this life @carlosvillareal743 but our efforts in this life by the grace of God can converge in God and make it a better place for everyone! La Paz contigo!!
Thanks for leaving such a well thought-out comment, Carlo! I can tell this is something you've thought about a lot. I think even agreeing that people can have different versions of catholicism breaks the magic 'infallibility' of the church. I certainly agree that many different people can have different spiritual beliefs - even find immense peace in them. Approaching religion from a human perspective allows us to be flexible and flourish - but I think it's a long shot to then say objectively speaking that it is THE divine agents' will in the world. I think the church should develop its doctrine and be more like the Episcopal church - allowing queer folks to stay in their religious communities - but I doubt the church will ever actually change. I don't have time for the pastoral approach route - I don't want platitudes, I want to be accepted. I think religion and sexuality can be reconciled, but to chalk that reconciliation up to an objective god seems like a stretch.
Hey I like your stuff. I find one very unfortunate aspect of American Catholics, and particularly Catholics from more traditionalist backgrounds (myself included), is that they often struggle to see the Church as anything other than another ideology --- maybe the best ideology, the "one true" ideology, but an ideology nonetheless. A self enclosed complete system of intelectual assent (this is a very OKAY definition of ideology but I don't want to get sidetracked). There's an historic and philosophical undercurrent that I think makes Catholics box in the church like this that I can't fault people for. If you approach the Church like an ideology, I'd have a tough time disagreeing with anything you've said. But if you look at the Church as a people united mystically and sacramentally to Jesus Christ (which I think is a truer and I'd say more historical way of seeing the Church), you're a bit more at peace with the fact that the Church changes like a flower changes. You don't see "infallible" in a sweeping objective prescriptive way. I spent time with the SSPX, the FSSP and other Latin Mass communities and I'm always a bit shocked by how these groups don't see how they look at the world through very modern categories while they think they're somehow holding on to some "purer" version of the apostolic Faith. I just don't agree at all. Take for instance the many many traditionalists who hold a very fundamentalist view of evolution. On the surface, they appear to be holding on to an older view and justify it due to its antiquity. But they forget that the Church never really endorsed such a fundamentalist view NOT because the Church is better, or wiser -- it's just that people didn't experience the world reducing things to scientific categories. Even Augustine said that the world was clearly not made in seven days. But with the proliferation of science in modernity, many Christians (and yes, even Catholics --- but not as much as American Christians) thought that science was at odds with their stories and so then approached science antagonistically. But the Church then wrestled with these new categories and eventually (and by historical standards I'd say quickly) saw that science and faith didn't really contradict each other as much as they were in two different categorical universes. What does this have to do with gay stuff? Well for one, the concept of homosexuality as we know it today is historically new. And it's new because heterosexuality as we know it is new. Until maybe 300 years ago, the idea of falling in love with someone and getting married was kind of a novelty. People used to think it was weird that St. Thomas More loved his wife. In those days, before the pill, before women's products, men hung around men, and women hung around women. People got married as was politically or socially convenient, and lots had little side affairs going on (both with opposite and same sex). This is how much of the Islamic world still operates today. Kind of a big don't ask don't tell. Any way, the church finds itself now wresting with this question --- and it's messy. Sorry typing on my phone as I wait for the bus so I hope this is more or less coherent. Keep up the great work.
First off, great job at summarizing complex theology in an accessible way! Though I’m curious to see how people like Bishop Baron or Fr Mike Schmidt would respond to these charges. My relationship with Catholicism has been bitter-sweet. I’d say there were good things about it and also horrific things about it. Net of it all, I decided what’s best for me was to tap out and live my life on my own terms instead of trying to fit a square peg into a circle that’s not at all designed for me - much to the protest of apologists. I wouldn’t have been the actuary (fancy statistics person at an insurance company) that I am now had I not had my elementary and high school education with the Jesuits. The focus on academic excellence was foundational to my love for mathematics which then became pivotal to my career trajectory. That said, it came with the massive price of self-hatred and low sense of self-worth growing up in an unapologetically queerphobic space. The novena masses to Saint Jude, along with hours of Eucharistic adoration, and rosary after rosary to remove my same sex attraction clearly did not work as advertised! It also didn’t help that the parish priest I turned to while my faith was unraveling in university recommended that I participate in Courage. It’s a ministry for those experiencing same sex attraction. In sum and substance, it’s conversion therapy without it being called that. The church now dances around how that ministry is marketed (because conversion therapy is illegal in some jurisdictions), but an astute observer should be able to piece it together fairly quickly. My relationship with the Church now is complicated. It’s a large part of my family’s (parents’ generation and up) identity and is used to process communal emotions like grief, joy, solidarity in hardship, etc. I’m still learning to have honest and respectful conversations with active believers on this specific topic or on what led to my apostasy/atheism without setting off their threat responses. I guess a good next topic is how to navigate this space of being queer and formerly Catholic, but still regularly interacting with religious folks who, for lack of a better word, have willfully backwards view of things, and have constructive dialogue/allow for them to be welcomed fully into our new, authentically gay and secular lives.
It seems like you've been on quite the journey, friend! So glad to hear that you're finally out 🙏. I agree, the hard things in dealing with being formerly catholic, is that being catholic formed so much of who we are - and in many ways, made us better people. And it's tough to also hold that it severely damaged us and hindered us from fully actualized lives. But, c'est le vie. I shall add that idea to to my future video list!
I grew up catholic and went catholic school grades 1 to 12. I can't but help and remember how many " flamboyant " priests and brothers we had and all of the masculine looking and acting nuns. And yet no one could seem to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what was really going on. My catholic high school has been in the news in the last few years for firing the vice principal when he was found to be a homosexual and and long time English teacher who was there perhaps a dozen years when she " confessed " that her female " roommate " was more than just a roommate . So as long as you were liar about yourself to the outside world all was good . Tell the truth and goodbye . I still get a newsletter about 3 or 4 times a year asking me for money. Yikes ! I recently heard a radio documentary which said that the only thing keeping the catholic church going in the united states is the growing Latino population. My very white church which used to have 3 masses on Sunday now only has 1. The grade school I grew up in is barely hanging on even with consolidation with other schools. People for the most part do not want to have 7 to 14 children, want to use birth control and almost everyone has grown up with openly gay people, family, friends, co workers. Just from a financial situation I don't see how these " teachings " from before most of us were born are going to work. People no longer live in small insular places. You can move to a new city or state, change religions or decide to join the fastest growing religion in this country which none. Ok catholic church, the ball is now in your court.
Exactly! Yes, it's true that the only way catholicism is keeping up is through a larger latino population and also conservative politics, but are latino friends also seem to be catching on that the church is a sinking ship and leaving in droves to. Nobody wants to adhere to the antiquated, mandatory rules of the church.
I grew up a Christian and was always told it's not sinful to have same sex attraction but acting on it is . I did not chose to be Bisexual it's who i am and i ain't sorry, and i ain't changing for no one. This is who i am you either like me or dont. I left religion 9 years ago. I said to my family I'm not going to spend the rest of my live pretending to be someone I'm not. I'm Bi and I'm not ashamed.
This hits so close to home and is a big reason why I left the church. People try to “reassure” queer Catholics that “we’re all called to be chaste!” It’s so tone deaf.
Precisely! It's so maddening for straight catholics to do the whole 'well, I'm attracted to people I'm not attracted to' schtick, as if it were even in the same realm of experience
Before I watch the video, a blind message here. As a catholic man, perhaps we put too much emphasis on homosexuality being a “ sin”. In my eyes if you are homosexual (obviously a sin) that’s no different than me sinning in the ways that I do. Love the sinner, hate the sin is what I preach. Not so much to say “ hate the gays” but as a Christian, trying to live right. As “ Christian’s” we get carried away though, because by trying to live right, sometimes we live by hate and disdain for others. And it’s not right. From a catholic man to you, I preach love, just as Jesus wanted me too. Keep loving the way you do. Love is better than no love.
You spoke about where all the lgbt Catholics went. I think you found them in your comments. It’s amazing how each person’s journey is different yet so similar at same time. Great video!
I just saw your comment on the I tried to be straight podcast. You were really good on that show. I hope they have you back. Do you know when we can expect your next video ? Do you want to give a hint about what it is ? Take care
Glad you enjoyed the interview! I talk to Nate a lot but most likely won't be back on the podcast. My next video should be posted next week - it's a breakdown of how the influencer Care Ellington was radicalized. On my patreon, I have some the existing outline and will have early access there.
Have you ever noticed how Jesus responded to the religious people of His time? By the way He addressed them in Matthew 22 --it’s clear that He wasn’t a fan of religion. In fact, He taught that religion crushes people and makes them carry a burden too heavy to endure. Religion uses guilt and fear to try to keep you in line. Its rules are designed to force your steps, and it relies on systems and rituals to earn God’s approval. When you’re taught that you have to do certain things to earn God’s blessings or avoid His punishment, that’s religion. When you think about it, Jesus came to end all religion. He didn’t come to teach us more rules to follow in order to earn our relationship with God. He came to die in our place to secure that relationship for all who believe. Religion weighs people down with unrealistic expectations, but Jesus sets us free❣️ -- Matthews 22:36-40
I'm lucky I'm in Asia. Buddhism or Taoism are religions that never judge people. All these LGBT issue in Christianity is just a non-issue in oriental religions. Anyone can cultivate themselves - practice martial arts, practice meditation and attain enlightenment.
If your vocation is to be a healthy, sexually active, gay Catholic, then look no further than the OGs: Saints Sergius and Bacchus. Let nobody on Earth -- lay or clergy, lead you astray from their example or teachings. Remember, before the 1800s, no distinction existed between gay and straight. All of the early church prayed to this gay couple as an example of perfect love for each other and the divine. If anybody attempts to punish you, then I strongly suggest you call them out for their hypocrisy and blasphemy.
A late friend of mine who was a gay man and a cradle Roman Catholic said to me. “The only way I could be a Catholic and maintain my self respect as a human being was to join the Episcopal Church.”
I'm an aroace woman. If I had stayed Catholic and forced myself to live a traditional life of getting married and have kids I probably would have killed myself by now because that life sounds like hell to me. Becoming a nun wasn't an option either because that also sounds like hell.
I wish I could do better for you, but that's just the way it is. This is the doctrine God has revealed to the church, and this is the doctrine the church presents for belief. Those who reject it reject what God has revealed. In te Domine, speravi.
God didn't make the Church oppose the creation of a national suicide hotline be cause it mentioned gays among other groups. You're blaming God is. blasphemous.
My original post was lost so I'll say God allowed his son to die for all of us. It took me a long time to learn that God didn't want me or others like me to wallow in self-hatred but to accept his grace from Jesus. I don't understand the Catholic Church's stance, but I believe that if God allowed his perfect son to die for us then no one has the right to refuse access to those who wish to come.❤
I went to Mass with my husband a couple of weeks ago. I put my arm around him during the sermon. I kissed him at the sign of peace. We received communion. Did we get some weird looks? Maybe. I just don’t give two fucks anymore.
Hey, catholic guy here, just wanted to say I'm deeply sorry and scandalized that the people you met didn't take time to understand and accompany you and have been judgemental. And more importantly, that you were told that you absolutely have to get married and that all encounters with men are near occasions of sin (that's just them forcing their scrupulosity on you imo). One seminarian told me that gay people can have a vocation and even love and fecundity in the same way as straight people who can never find a partner (that's a more well-known case in the church).But it's true that a lot of church members are not doing their job of meeting people where they are and trying to walk the path with them.
I know! But I try to fly below the radar with my family. They know I am a homosexual, but as long we don't talk about it, they treat me fine. I can't join the party and eat the cake with them, but it could be worse.
I’m Catholic, Gay, and in a relationship. I’m 66 and never felt guilty and knew that most church leaders are not Catholic, the basic church in the teachings of Christ to be build on the Rock Peter was. I am ok with Jesus’s teaching and feel very home in that church’s culture. Beautiful music, worship of the Virgin etc. Today is all Saints. Tomorrow all Souls. ✝️ 🏳️🌈
I dont go to church but i still practice catholic rites at home and i think it's still possible to be gay and catholic. A few other catholics are gay too but we arent so obvious about our faith. Tho we recognize tht the best way to approach it is to just have a normal partnership with the person we love. What i understand is tht the catholic church doesnt accept how homosexuality is with lust being the main component of the relationship since back then gay men only fucked for fun or something like that. If the relationship is purely non-sexual, im pretty sure there is nothing wrong with that since the main drive of christian love is to sacrifice for the other above oneself. So i would imagine tht if lust is sacrificing in place of love then the relationship is alright. At least tht is in my understanding of how it can work and a few others who think the same.
Yeah, there are many gay catholics in loving, committed relationships in which lust doesn't get in the way of love, yet sexuality is a core form of connection in their love
@@GayExTrad Also, don't forget that the Church condemns even chaste same sex relationships under the banner of 'near occasion to sin' and or 'scandal'. It is never just about the sex acts, because the attraction itself is 'intrinsically disordered'- aka ordered to that which is sinful, so must not be indulged in any manner whatsoever, sexual or not. They always default to 'its just the sex act' to make their theology seem less bigoted.
“They know the Lord more than you ever will.” That’s a pretty prideful and wild assumption. I’ll pray for you sir and hope you find much happiness. I do agree with you that the church does have some issues to deal with regarding homosexuality. I don’t think the answer is to disregard the church and making them out to be a bad guy. What about other religious communities that are just as bad or even worse? What about gay Catholics that have been able to find a happy life in the church?
@@mitchellandersen9199 I must admit this is my new favorite conversation chain under my video - previously it was someone telling me to try Islam. But having a pissing match over holiness is infinitely amusing to me
@@GayExTrad pretty amusing to me as well. I don’t take any of this stuff seriously as it is. Also love that you just avoided the questions too. Also to be fair, you’re the one that started the pissing contest. I wasn’t even calling myself holy. You’re a pretty silly fella! 😂 I’ll be praying for you and wishing you happiness though!
I'm finding this video to be very different from the previous two, longer ones. I don't like the jumpy video editing which is distracting, and the tone sounds like a preacher. In contrast, the previous two were very engaging. In other words, I find this one to be more of a rant and unfortunately can easily be dismissed, while the previous ones were more persuasive. Can you somehow return to your previous style?
For sure - I think different videos require different styles. This video is much more pointed and aggressive, while the other videos are much longer and story-based. Look forward to a variety of styles in future content - encompassing both the previous style and this style. I appreciate your input!
One thing that helped me in the process is to stop worrying about being gay. I used to look down at me because of that, but these feelings stoped to haunt me when I focused on other things. I'm still Catholic. Yes, SSA is part of me and I have to fight against these kinds of sinful thoughts and actions. Maybe I'm called for marriage. I know some gay guys who are happily married and have many children. Sometimes I have these dreams. Or maybe I'm called to be a priest or a monk. Being gay isn't a dead end for practicing Catholicism. Next month I'm going to be baptized and the in full communion at the Church
Bruh, I hate to be so blunt, but it’s literally not worth it - aborting your conversion is going to save you years of your life from being wasted. I get being Catholic now seems cool, but it won’t in a few years when you leave
Doesn’t the Catholic Church command tbat there be genuine love and attraction between spouses? Thats why the Church very rarely recommends ‘mixed orientation marriages’. As a gay man, you will never be able to give your wife what she deserves- a person who actually is attracted to her, not one who pretends to do that. Gay men like you who never accept their sexuality have ruined enough women’s lives.
@@RationalistMH i wonder if maybe the fact that they dont give birth and also have the option to be distant from the families they were pressured to have, makes it easier for gay men to make that choice to settle for a loveless marriage for the sake of status...
There is room for gay couples in the Catholic Church. Maybe where you are from they don’t have an open hearts ministry, or Courage or DignityUSA. I could tell you the community that I am apart of a Franciscan church community are very welcoming of both myself and my husband. There is room, and sometimes you need to make it.
Courage has five goals, the first of which is "To live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality". This comes directly from the Courage RC website. And what exactly is the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality? CCC 2357: ...Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved... There is no room in the Catholic Church for gay people, and there won't be until there is a drastic reform within the Church. I hope you can be part of that reform.
@@GayExTrad the Catholic Church welcomes individuals who experience SSA but that doesn’t mean they affirm, accept or celebrate homosexual relationships or people who embrace a homosexual identity .
What is Reform Judaism like? I've been exploring some progressive Christian denominations and while I heard a bit of Reform Judaism I still don't know much about it (or Judaism in general).
@@Sep358 Judaism is the religion of Jesus, but Judaism does not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Jews believe there is one G-d. There are a wide variety of beliefs about God, heaven, hell, etc. Judaism is more a religion of actions than beliefs. In traditional (orthodox) Judaism, Jews are expected to try to follow the 613 commandments found in the Hebrew Bible. (It is not possible to follow them all!) Reform Judaism, which originated in Germany about 200 years ago, is the largest Jewish movement in the USA. One of the biggest differences between Reform and Orthodox Judaism (besides the egalitarianism) is that Reform Jews do not believe that you must try to follow all of the 613 commandments. They believe that some of the laws of the Hebrew Bible are not feasible, practical, or relevant to modern life. So, while some Reform Jews will follow the kosher dietary laws, many do not. While some Reform Jews will refrain from work, etc., on the sabbath, many do not. If you want to get a sense of what Reform Judaism is like, I would try watching a Friday night shabbat service of Central Synagogue on RUclips. It's absolutely beautiful, even if you don't understand Hebrew (most people don't understand it, but they have a prayer book with English translations of the prayers and songs.) If you're interested in hearing a Reform Rabbi talk about the basics of Judaism, ReformJudaism.org offers an affordable 3 hour class called Taste of Judaism. Finally, I will say that the more I learn about Judaism, the more I see Judaism's influence in Catholicism!
You and Brandon Robertson should do a podcast😮. You guys could discuss what gay community should look like which would be very insightful. Wait! Are you gay??
I listen to you both, and both of you are great communicators You’re both on the same side of the coin, but from two different angles. While he tries to show how gay people should not be excluded, but fully excepted and fully functioning in the body of Christ On the other hand, you seem to be saying, although the church says gay people are excepted, yet when you read the fine print , (which they hope gay people don’t read) they don’t fully except gay Christian community I truly hope that you guys can connect and discuss both your views. If so, I know a-number of people who would tune into that.
Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. The Way is a life of Chaste Celibacy in Imitation of Jesus Christ. The Truth is that the Sexual act is exclusively intended by God the Father for monogamous heterosexual marriage for the procreation of life to to bring about children for his Eternal Kingdom in Heaven . The Life is mortification of ones own passions and desires and renunciation of sin for The True Pure Divine Love Of Jesus Christ, our neighbor as well as our self. Jesus says that in order to follow him we must pick up our CROSS Daily which means redemptive suffering is essential to being an Authentic Lover of Jesus Christ and the Royal road to Eternal Life with God in Heaven. Any other path is counterfeit and a Dead end. Fyi, I'm ex gay and finally accepted this way and LOVING IT !!! Never had more Peace before in my Life !
I am abstinent. Ex-gays are assholes. The term was made up so that most Christians would assume that everyone who calls himself "gay" is sexually active.
I wish I could support you, But I can't. support of just $1.00 its cheap as heck until I send you a buck and then feel bad and send a buck to the 50 other channels. I did thumbs up though and I enjoyed the talk so thanks.
Its not the job of The Church to conform to you. She cannot change teachings of the Bible, though many "progressive" theologians try to make the claim that when the Bible refers to homosexuals its speaking strictly in a context of men with boys. This is eisegetical and requires one to ignore other teachings in the Old and New Testamant. If you do not believe in Christ or the Bible im not sure what the purpose is of complaining that you do not have a space in the Church.
Church must've know what to do with gay people: convert to Jesus and heal bad thoughts and bad sexual action and second thing church must do is condemn those who keep insisting in the homossexual sin.
If you get caught between the Moon and Vatican City...I know it's crazy, but it's true...when you get caught between the Moon and Vatican City, the best that you can do is fall in love?
@@GayExTrad Yes, the church established for the purpose of facilitating Henry's adultery with Ann and divorce from Catherine. They do have nice vestments though.
If suffering had no meaning, Christ would not have to suffer. In suffering, you can either rebel or accept it and trust Him. There is a lot of pride ;) and attempts to justify oneself in your vid, we all do it, regardless of our preferences, nihil novi... ;)
Religion always has issue with LGBT as they need to have people to hate which is a sin.....hate was always a sin. There is no sin in being created LGBT.
If you think the world needs more of my content, consider supporting my work on patreon: www.patreon.com/c/gayextrad
For even $1, you'll get access to a lively private discord server to talk with other folks in your same shoes.
It isn't just vocations where the Catholic Church has no idea what to do with LGBT persons. Consider rights issues such as housing, employment, and physical safety. The Church has a long tradition of papal teaching on human dignity...which is straight up ignored whenever the person's under consideration are LGBT.😊
Read the life od saint mary of egypt
Not Just about being gay, its not good to live in any sin
@@NinevehMusicNZ-xf8yj What does that have to do with human dignity?
Wow, so well argued. Churches are very good at articulating a sexual ethic theology that condemns all same-sex activity, but they are terrible at offering any meaningful direction on how same sex attracted persons are to live a life that is not lonely and isolating. As I see it same-sex attracted Christians are faced with a "Sophie's choice" of either being single and celibate for your whole life, or face eternal damnation if you succumb to love and romance with a person of the same sex. I made the choice to remain single and celibate. It has been miserable and I prayed for decades to become straight. I prayed to find just the one woman to whom I could be attracted enough to marry. (I never found her.) I prayed for enduring, long term friendships, but have learned that even the many great friendships I have are transitory and ever changing. Friends move away, friends get married, friends have kids and all these things take up their time and energy, rightly so. So friends are not the same as being with someone with whom you are permanently committed to "do life" together. I am now in my 60's and retired. I have kept my faith and love God, but there is no denying that I am living a lonely, solitary life. I thought obeying the church's teaching would lead to God's best for me and I would find the vocation you reference. So even though I have lived a chaste single life, that has not happened. It leads me to conclude that traditional theology is lacking. Yes I am well aware there is credible affirming Christian theology, but for any organization that adheres to the traditional teaching, they have to articulate how same sex attracted persons can live sexually obedient lives that do not result in the miserable, lonely life I experience. I do not recommend my life as model for anyone. Thank you for so clearly outlining the deeply flawed and unworkable instruction presented to same sex attracted Christians.
I feel for you and am shocked. I’m 66, Dutch, brought up Catholic, and not by church but by common society was thought that being and acting homosexual was wrong.
I have always believed i was ok and therefore it was not wrong. I escaped family and provincial life at age 19 in ‘77 and in ‘79 came out.
6 Weeks later i had my first, Jewish, lover and i have never felt a mm that God was against this. I did not leave the church and felt that likely i was a better Catholic, the basis Loving church Jesus was to build on the Rock Peter , than most church leaders who were busy with anything but Love and saving the world. My faith has helped me to do certain difficult things in life like having ten foster children. I do not fear God. Your comment and life story makes me feel very sad. You could have made not only yourself but also someone else happy. Sex is not dirty.
My first lover died thirty years ago. I’ve had relationships since. Have met wonderful Gay people and am now again seriously involved with a Hindu man. The church with its dogmas is created by people. Please don’t let people’s dogmas further lead your life but the Love of Christ.
To be frank, i don’t quite understand why you did not see that. It’s not too late. There’s a lot of 60+ serious Gay men out there that want to connect. For God sake reach out. Best is a dating site like Silver daddies. Look for divorced or widowers. They have proven to be serious. It’s Not too late.
I wish you Love 💕 Louis.
Wow - thank you so much for the vulnerability in sharing! I'm so sorry to hear where the church has lead you! It's never too late to come out and start living life - I've known people who came out in their 50s and started families, or came out in their 80's and finally got married to the love of their lives. I believe in you!
I hope you know it's never too late to live your life and find love if that's what you want ❤
Yeah man; it is lonely existence. As a deconstructing Xtian, I'm leaning more into Buddhist philosophy and hoping to reincarnate as a woman in next life to be with a man without all these trials of living hell.
As for marrying a woman part; that's something completely abominable and unnatural to me as it would induce me the disgust of woman forced into lesbianism or bestiality. I would rather die or butcher women forced into me. Never in my life would I pray to be with a strange flesh as women look like animals to me physically (sorry for being brutally honest, but please do bear with me). I love men only, and I'm not lesbo (woman trapped in gay man's body ehh).
Take heart, dude. ❤ Perhaps all these suffering lead to better reincarnation who knows xD
The harsh fact: most heterosexual activities are also immoral, biblically. Who knows; those who persecute us could also reincarnate as lesbos or animals and suffer in the next life as their due?
Pick up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him. Pretty simple concept if you ask me.
I recently came across this amusing comment on TikTok: “SSA is ass backwards in more ways than one.” Very well-presented video. I first discovered you through the “I tried to be straight” podcast. Although you’re years younger than me, I genuinely admire your journey. At 29, I still grapple with genuine self-acceptance, having endured years of self-hate. While I didn’t grow up Catholic, many of the experiences you described in this video resonated deeply with my own. I felt defective and evil, regardless of my efforts to be straight, or at the least less gay. I'm moving forward with love for myself, and whoever my eventual partner in life will be, but it's still a struggle. I hope you keep telling your story and making videos like these. You may save somebody from the years of shame and pain I experienced.
Wow, that is such a powerful story, friend! I'm so sorry to hear that you had to endure that, but it brings me joy to hear that you're working on it and living a better life now! Whoever you find for a partner is going to be a lucky person :)
The Catholic message for gay folks: "sit in the corner and knit or play the organ for us - until you eventually die." I eventually became Episcopalian...
I am doing the same thing and have started to attend an Episcopal church. I am starting to feel at peace with myself and accept who I am.
yup! So glad you found your way out 🙏
@@GayExTrad Thank you. It's much like Log Cabin Republicans: how many years do you want to beat your head against the wall before you realize that you're not welcome?
@@markgreene3483Mayor Pete, now secretary of transportation grew up catholic and married his husband Chasten in a Episcopalian church and are the proud parents of 2 toddlers. Your loss Catholics
Im not gay but I go to a Lutheran Church and at my old congregation, there was this happy gay married guy I knew who was raising a couple boys. very normal church going family, put a smile to my face.
Dude, I came to the exact same conclusion years ago and was one of those closeted super Catholics just waiting for death/planning suicide. Once I truly comprehended that the Church has no place for me and that arguments for God's existence and the truth of Christianity are actually incredibly weak, there was no going back. I still have a lot of growth and healing to do but I have no regrets about taking this journey out of religion and would strongly encourage other young gay Catholics to do the same!
So glad you made it out!! It's a long journey but worth it
Please excuse the substitution of letters for numbers and other silly evasions. As you probably know RUclips gets very twitchy when certain words are mentioned.
But not to demean or belittle your experience, but if you were planning your eventual su1c1de you weren't anything resembling a Catholic. A Catholic just won't check out early, because we don't know what experience, painful or otherwise, might be a Grace necessary for Salvation, a purgation, etc., that makes us finally and truly accept the redemption of Calvary.
Please for the Love of Christ realise that there is more to life than what makes you hard. That thinking it is the be all and end all and basing your entire personality around it makes you a hollow shell of a man. Makes you actually a repellant and fundamentally untrustworthy person.
Such a powerful obsession really does cut you off from the Grace of God and from the person you are meant to be and distorts your relationship with other people into something quite dark and unhealthy. Because it is such an all consuming passion.
As for mistaking yourself for a one time Catholic, there are a great many people who join the the Catholic Church or indeed are brought up in it, who feel they are faithful Catholics in a state of Grace, but unfortunately formation and catechism has in many dioceses been so bad since the 1960s a lot of these people don't have a blind clue what the actual teachings of the Church even are. Don't even know what you are meant to do as a Catholic nor understand the Sacraments.
So sadly they are deceived, and if not in a state of mortal sin are at the very least labouring under _grave_ errors and greatly imperiling their souls, and to say their priests and bishops are extremely remiss would be a spectacular understatement.
For instance a shocking 70% of American Catholics attending regular diocesan parish Masses for instance did not believe in the Real Presence. Which begs the question of why they even bother. For as St Paul say "he who eats unworthily eats his own condemnation, for not perceiving the Body of the Lord, becomes guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord". Many people that go to Catholic Mass therefore arguably aren't faithful Catholics. Don't even understand what that means.
I have seen analogous things in Protestantism, half of which now appear to hold to the heresy of Arianism, that is the belief Jesus Christ is not coeternal or otherwise inferior to God the Father. Which was rejected by the earliest councils but yet is an extraordinarily persistent and durable error.
Traditional Catholics do a fair bit better and at least take catechism and formation seriously.
If you care to understand where you might have been deprived of authentic Catholicism I would recommend the short and sweet _Catechism of St Pious X._ Preferably discussing it with a well formed Catholic or ideally a spiritual director who is a properly faithful Catholic priest.
And saying the Traditional priests hate us in my experience just isn't remotely accurate.
The priests at the FSSP oratory I go to are well aware I am a man that is attracted to men, that I regularly had sex with men till my reversion back to Catholicism just after Easter this year. But they regardless have been extremely compassionate, welcoming and understanding.
The FSSP only says the Latin Mass and other Sacraments according to the traditional Latin missals and rites of 1962. So to say they are traditional Catholics is somewhat of an understatement. They are also in full communion with the Holy See.
But they consistently tell me during spiritual direction and in confession that having attraction to other men isn't a sin, but that indulging it is, as would be say casual shreks with a woman. But that temptation isn't a sin, only giving in to it. Including not only external acts but also willfully entertaining fantasies, etc.
I would be lying if I said it was easy. I regularly slip back into impurity, stuff that would make your hair curl. Without getting into gory details some of it could without exaggeration land me in hospital.
But so far I have been able to resist actually sinning with someone else, and it is easier to resist the more time goes on and the more I pray and avail myself of the Sacraments.
Everyone has their cross to bear and as Our Lord said "whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not fit to be my disciple".
My wonderful priests constantly stress both in personal conversation and in their homilies that Jesus died for the Forgiveness of our sins, we just have to avail ourselves of this wonderful gift. And He knows full well how weak and fallen we are, so provides Sacramental Confession and Holy Communion. And also Purgatory as a final mercy if we do not have the strength to take the much easier path of voluntary penance in this life to purify our souls of the spiritual scars of sin which remain even if our sins are forgiven.
So saying the Church just wants us as same sex attracted men to just sit in a corner until we die is not true, no more than saying it wants divorcees to do the same.
No, She wants both to remain chaste and to participate in the fullness of the Christian sacraments.
Because as I have said if you live a life of sexual obsession you are not living in Grace by living in bondage to your passions. At the end of the day you will also be utterly miserable and not get remotely what you want.
@cianmoriarty7345 yeah, thanks for the tip. I don't believe in any of that, nor am I interested in what you're selling, but if it makes you happy, then hey to each their own.
@@SkepticGamerNerd
Hey, I see you’re now of the belief that arguments for Christianity are also weak. How so? :)
@FuddlyDud fundamentally, they lack evidence or contradict the data that we do have. If you want to know more, I'd recommend checking out atheist/skeptic channels like Alex O'Connor, Genetically Modified Skeptic, and Paulogia or scholars of the Bible/early Christianity like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan.
Thank you for your impeccable logic and honesty! Millions of Catholic straight couples quietly form their own consciences, ignore the pre-scientific, medieval thinking, and practice birth control. This is much harder to do for queer people, because we don’t blend in.
Precisely!
My husband and I are recovering Catholics who were raised in Roman Catholic families.
When our parents found out we were more than college roommate, the reaction was apoplectic and it was as bad as it would get.
My now husband's parents said it was a sign from god for my husband to become a priest.
We were horrified, gave up on the Catholics, ran away to San Francisco in 1982, and lived happily ever after.
We are together 46 years now.
Did your parents ever reconcile to your situation? ❤
You are a wonderful strong couple. Respect.
@@DIBBY40 yes, but it took twenty years and the threat of never speaking to them again unless they treated David with respect and a equal member of the family.
Sometime, time can heal old wounds…
Wow - 46 years together sounds wonderful!! So glad you read the writing on the wall and moved somewhere better
@@richardbernard6845
Former Marine, former Franciscan seminarian, retired FBI. I can validate your points
@@JohnDowd-r8t 🙏🙏
@@GayExTrad
I am glad to meet someone who learned his worth through duty to others. I applaud you.
Thank you for making this video. I'm a Catholic gay guy. Just turned 40. I understand your pain and your points. Yes, I cannot agree with church teaching and regarding how they minister and treat gay folks like us. But aside from that, I still derive benefit from the church. The sacraments, devotion to the Blessed Virgin, to St. Joseph, to the saints and angels. My spiritual and prayer life has been enriched by all of these including the rosary, chaplet of Divine Mercy, and writings of the saints, thanks to the Catholic church. Do I think the church should do more for gay people? Of course. Do I disagree and feel hurt by the church's stance that gay people should either be in a mixed orientation marriage or remain celibate for the rest of their lives? Most certainly. I am against spiritual abuse and bigotry. I thirst for genuine change within the church. But at the same time I cannot negate all the good things that the church has done for me. For me, God is not homophobic. This might sound strange or ironic for some but I genuinely feel the maternal presence of the Blessed Mother, the paternal care and presence of St. Joseph and our Lord whenever I pray. I am wounded and hurt by a lot of the members of the church but not utterly destroyed. I thirst for genuine and lasting reforms in the church, and I call out her mistakes in the past and the bad things that she continually do to gay people but I am also grateful for the things she has done in my life especially in my darkest moments. I hope this makes sense.
That totally makes sense! Yeah, I think there can be so much good that the church provides in peoples' lives, and it sounds like you've been able to make it work - so happy for you!!
When you used the statement that "With God, everything is possible", it reminded me of a large billboard that is on the side of the highway between my town and the next. In very large print, it states "With God all things are possible". Every time I pass by that billboard I can envision myself climbing up to it and adding the words at the bottom "But not probable" to it. I too, have been a life long Catholic and I have to agree with everything you presented in this video. I also, like you, adhered to the Traditional Latin Mass, but now that has been taken away and I'm drifting without anything. I have found that the more I separate myself from the idea of "God", the better I feel about myself. Forty years ago, I went to confession and admitted that I was gay. I was told that "God's not going to forgive that because He can't". That was my last confession and I never went back. That confession remains as an open festering wound that never heals. I prayed my ass off begging God to heal that wound, but nothing ever changed and I have lost any faith in prayer. You packed so much thought and information into this video that I had to watch it three times in order to absorb most of it. You have a way of being able to articulate what I can often only feel. I loved the church, but feel that I also suffered irreparable from it greatly too and the farther I can put distance between it and myself, the less mental pain and suffering I experience. THANK YOU for these videos. In a non religious way, you have been a blessing to me.
You were given bad advice…once. Doctors do that too, have you stopped going back to them? Come on, I know it was hurtful, and was so out of that priest’s ignorance. But as someone who has suffered the same, and for the same reasons, I have to advise you that you just have to get past it. For some reason, we can’t let go of that one time we were hurt by a priest’s bad advice, but let any other profession, legal, medical, etc. do the same and what do we do…look for another opinion. Just because they are a priest doesn’t mean that advice they gave you that one time was right, go talk to a priest you trust and you trust because they’ve demonstrated some pastoral acuity and understanding!!
"God's not going to forgive that because he can't." Proof positive that the Catholic Church believes deep down that merely being gay i.e., having deep seated homosexual tendencies, is the unforgivable sin! 😠😡😡🤬 By believing that they have conceded the point to John Calvin that some people are predestined and automatically consigned to the infernal place and not the celestial North Korea called heaven. What sort of god would do that? To me it shows that Christianity itself is intrinsically evil because it worships a sociopathic god.
Plus Christianity's track record is terrible, it's absolutely terrible. If you ask any Jew or Muslim what they think of Christianity they'll give you an earful!
Dang, I'm so sorry that happened to you! The unfortunate reality is that to go back to the church would mean enduring that sentiment and having more of those negative encounters. There's soooooo many better churches/religious groups out there to join than catholicism. I'm so glad to hear that my videos are helping!
I am not trying to play gotcha or something, just an honest question. Why did you never go back to confession? Did you take the priest at his word? Or did you think that every priest would say the same? Did you try to go back?
@@jeannebouwman1970maybe he thinks every priest will say the same. I may disagree, but I can understand his reasoning
Its almost funny how Catholics are virtually Pragmatists when they talk about their religion, until suddenly the topic of gay marriage comes up. Suddenly Catholics are not Pragmatists at all! Anyway, I joined the Patreon - the world needs more content like this!
I just read your profile.
I sense you are Théy essential Catholic as in the beginning of that loving church build by Jesus on the shoulders of the Rock Peter. Beautiful culture, developed over centuries, like music, the ‘Virgin’ adoration, the Saints that in many ways can be examples to us but most of all, believing and knowing nothing for sure which leads to mystery, not dogmas are for me, a Gay man of 66, a reason to have never left the church.
@louisdewit4429 I'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say there, but I hope you're doing well!!
So glad to have you join!! The world needs more Kevigen content too!!
"They are not here anymore" survivor bias at its worst. Thank you for stating it so directly.
It's the tragic reality of a hateful institution forcing people to hate themselves ... 💔
As a former Catholic I can attest to everything you've said. The hours of prayer, eucharist adoration, apologetics, bible study, and self-driven conversion therapy - I didn't know anyone who spent as much time as I did trying to square the circle. It wasn't until I broke away, and found peace in myself that things started to turn around. In a lot of ways, if I'd described my dating life and marriage, but left out the gender of my eventual spouse, I'd be the model of the Good Catholic who got married and remained faithful.
Years later my conservative father is trying to get me back in the church as if anything has changed. I recently attended a funeral mass for a family member and was shocked at the language changes to the Mass ritual. Somehow the Church has become MORE exclusionary in the last 10-20 years than it used to be. No longer was Christ's blood shed "for you and for all", but now just "for many."
Even if the Church suddenly became welcoming, I have too many reasons to NOT believe in the existence of an almighty creator. The one thought that has haunted me my entire life is the easiest way for me to explain my position: An All Powerful, All Good, All Knowing Creator would be horrifically EVIL to create a universe where they would condemn the plurality of their creation to eternal torture to uplift a minority who's only purpose is to worship the being. The mindset behind these beliefs are the purest definition of tribalism: the Other is to be feared, condemned, and/or converted.
Even as a flawed human being, if I were able to program conscious beings in a simulation, I would have no need for those being to even know I existed. The whole purpose of their existence, from my perspective, would simply be for me to see what THEY achieve independent of my biases and expectations. I would have no need for them to recognize me for creating their simulation. What need would an all-powerful creator have for constant eternal adoration? Only an egomaniac would need something like that.
Wow - thank you so much for sharing! It sounds like you were also in deep and have really thought about this. The church most certainly has regressed in the past 10-20 years as more and more people fall away, what remains are the most radical people who then control the church. I suspect it'll keep going down hill. And great points on the flaws in god's existence!
@@GayExTrad - If Pope Francis dies or retreats, it’s very likely that a next Pope comes from Africa. I’ve spend a greater time of the last 17 years in east Africa, Ethiopia to be exact, and i can assure you that things will definitely regress and will be mirrored after their extreme conservative culture and turn 180 degrees on what Jesus would have wanted. Like in our middle ages.
Gays persecuted and hetero men making children with several women and not properly look after them coz thát’s their culture and thát the church condones.
@@AmbiguouslyGray - With recognition of both your gender you are the perfect basic loving Christian which is Catholicism in it’s roots and here in the Netherlands, although indeed most bishops were appointed by the Polish and German Popes due to their conservative beliefs, most priests are rather progressive. They certainly did not change the text towards type mad exclusion in which the Lord’s blood was shed just for the ‘happy’ few. Might be an American thing. The almightiness of God was proclaimed by church leaders.
Likely during the council of Nicea by emperor Constantin. A nice tool which the nobility via a Pope could use to keep the illiterate masses under control. Yet as far as i know Jesus never spoke of an almighty God. I’ve never believed in that. Don’t blame God for what goes wrong nor thank God for what goes well. For me that has always been superstition. For me God/Jesus is a lecture and example for how to make the best of things and i think that’s what the early Christians, without any dogmas meant to achieve with that early, Catholic, church. It all went a bit funny so yes, i do understand you.
I think sometimes we feel that we can understand why God does things the way he does. God is not a dictator. God loves you. You have free will. He’s a God of protection. And if we live outside of him, what may feel peaceful is not sustainable long term. We are going to have bad days, and understanding our existence in itself is mind boggling. But everyone who believes in God can’t be out of their mind…
I would never say believers are out of their minds. I would say that indoctrination that lasted your entire childhood, and built up weekly and annual traditions, have a powerful influence over you for the rest of your life. Especially when it can bring comfort during difficult times. How many believers do you think there would still be if we outlawed religion until you were 18 or 21? There would still be believers, but my circumstantial evidence would suggest in dramatically fewer numbers.
Wow, I was born and raised Catholic but damn I've never heard of anything like this. Kinda makes me glad I never had a super religious family. Conservative yes, but more in a libertarian sense. As homophobic as some of my family members might talk, most of them are actually quite chill. In particular, it was one uncle of mine who said something years ago that really stuck with me.
"God wouldn't have given you a brain if he didn't want you to use it."
Growing up, I always resented having the brain that I did because I could never simply accept something 100%. I always retained some level of doubt. But as I've gotten older I've come to see it as much more of a blessing than a curse
I'm not Catholic anymore except by culture(Mexican catholic on my father's side and Portuguese/Italian Catholic on my mother's side) and I don't really attend mass except for special occasions with family. I'm gay but that wasn't really what drew me away from the church.
From the time I was little, I always struggled with the idea of hell and what happens after we die. When I was 16 and eventually met people from another country who were not Catholic or even Christian, I couldn't reconcile the fact that they were going to hell with the fact that they had treated me with so much more kindness and compassion than even my own family and friends.
It wasn't really all at once or anything, but after that, I stopped identifying as Catholic. By the time I was 17, I completely lost interest in trying to be a part of that system. I said, "screw it, I'll find something that works for me."
And I did. And I'd say I'm doing okay for myself after leaving the Church. My dad did guilt trip me into getting confirmed at 18 but I eventually gave up on even doing that after a while and I think he realized it was pointless.
Now in my mid twenties, I can't say that life is easy. But at the very least, I don't hate myself and I've got good people around me. For me, that's enough of a reason not to be Catholic anymore
I'd be lying if I didn't say there's a part of me that wishes the Church would change, but I have no such delusions that, even if it does happen, it will be in my lifetime. So I'm okay with how things stand for now.
Regardless, I appreciate the perspective you bring to the table. It's nice to hear from other former Catholics about their experiences growing up gay in the Church, even and especially when they're different from mine
Thanks for sharing! Yeah, catholicism is such a varied/diverse experience - some families are great and just stick around for the culture, others go bananas with the rules. Whatever it is, I too hope for a day when the church can change, but in the meantime, I'm not going back - life's too good now. As you pointed out, once you leave religion, a lot of the self-hate goes away. Wishing you the best!
I'm a huge fan. I admire your mental clarity, the quality and strength of your arguments. As an older guy, from an older generation, I envy your youth, and your speed to transition from something (trad ? catholic ?) to ex-something. I was slower, and at your age I was more confused. Looking forward to your next installment.
Thank you for the kind words - it’s comments like this that keep me posting!! Wishing you the best, friend!
Great vid! I think we also tend to underestimate the effectiveness of ‘ex gay or celibate gay’ propaganda by Catholic Church influencers. These propagandists pander mostly to heterosexual Catholics, and thats what matters when jt comes to keeping the majoriry of Catholics on board with official teaching. It doesn’t matter that 99/100 gays end up leaving the Church. So long as they can point to one or two people and say ‘ well see that persons says they’re happy being a gay Catholic’ or ‘that person says they were in the gay lifestyle and it was completely degenerate and demonic’ straight Catholics will have their preconceived biases confirmed. I mean, this even happens jn your own comment sections. Sometimes I wonder how many of these supposed ‘testimonies’ are actually written by anonymous Catholic propagandists that aren’t even gay. This has certainly happened with the ex gay movement. And also the influence of bisexuals. Ever notice how the Church never once makes reference to bisexuality? Ever notice how the preferred language of ‘same sex attracted’ over ‘gay’ allows them to not differentiate between gays and bisexuals? Its so they can use the bisexuals who then enter heterosexual relationships as proof that gays can be converted. Like yes , you are ‘same sex attracted’ but are you also ‘opposite sex attracted’ ? The evasion of the ‘gay’ label leaves that unanswered. Another thing I wish you’d touched upon is the reality of celibacy. If celibacy is so fulfilling, why don’t straight Catholics do it? If these priests were to go tell young heterosexual Catholic males they have to stay celibacy for life and never fallin love with or have sex with women, 95% of them would leave the Church. Yet these same people consider celibacy ‘just another burden’ akin to needjng to stay monogamous or something when you’re straight. But thats a false analogy. Demand that they stay celibaye for life and you’ll see how quickly their hypocricy shows up. Nice vid though. We need a lot more of this kind of content. You are the antidote to the ‘celibate gay testimonial’ propaganda of the Catholic Church. If they wanna use personal anecdotes as propagand, its only fair game for us to do the same ( though we also have science on our side when they don’t)
Very astute observations! I'm continually fascinated by the 'ex gay' catholic media machine. Like you said, the audience is always straight catholics wanting to hear that their hate doesn't actually harm anyone or that if their gay children just were better people, they'd come back to the church. And to your other point, I've never seen a testimony of someone say that they went from exclusively SSA to predominantly opposite sex attracted - it's always this vague language about how god changed them but they never actually say what they're trying to give off.
I’ve read that the Jesuits have ordained gays to be priests as long as they remain celibate. I wonder if these priests can actually remain celibate. It must be very difficult if they’re longing to be intimate with another guy
No doubt. And it is not only Jesuits.
The Jesuits are a disaster in the church.Happily they are in a state of collapse.They have half the priests they had in 1965.
Celibacy is no different for gay or straight people. It is a choice. It is only difficult if the person doesn't have that gift. According to Paul, it is the preferred state, but if a person lacks the gift, he or she should marry. The only difficulty in monastic terms would be that the person is lodging with other men or other women if lesbian, and that could be difficult without a real gift for celibacy.
straight priests are called to celibacy too so that's fair, what I don't see fair is that homosexual lay catholics are forced to it
Yeah, many groups ordain celibate yet gay men against Vatican guidelines. The majority of all priests break their vows at some point throughout their life
I was raised baptist, but I can relate to a lot of this. When I confided in my pastor that I was struggling with reconciling my attraction to other boys with what the Bible says and the church teaches, his “advice” was basically that I’m being influenced by demons and to just pray harder for deliverance. It took me to some pretty dark places until I eventually walked away from the church and never looked back. Anyway, great video. Subscribed 😊
Yiiiiiiiiikes - that‘a so terrible! Glad you found your way out, friend 🙏
Thank you! I thought I was the only one struggling with this. You went through my whole thought process from the last 6 years (I’m 18 now but I started trying to follow Catholic teaching since I was 12, growing up in an extremely devout religious Latin family). You touched on every aspect of living the celibate gay life and the same thought processes I have had on how to reconcile my same sex attraction and gender dysphoria with church teaching. You said it betta than I could evaaaaa. Thank you, God bless you for all that you’re doing. You’re dissipating façades that a lot of “faithful” queer Catholic youth are self-inculcating themselves to hold fast to and self-internalize.
I have decided that after years of attempting, I will not deprive myself any longa of experiencing romantic love and internal peace. I have only ever liked my same sex. Never once in my childhood did I ever feel bad about it until I saw socio-religious stigma and discrimination against us🌞I only felt guilty the more I brain-washed myself with anti-gay rhetoric, Catholic rhetoric. I still believe in God and all the dogmas of the church but I don’t believe that he will send me to hell for realizing an attraction that I NEVA had a choice in choosing! Periodt
Love it - keep living your best life!! Glad to hear that you think my videos do our experience justice
4:15 The LDS church actually has some stats on mixed orientation marriages and they're pretty sad. At least 70% of them end up in divorce after a few years. Thats worse than average for newly weds in America
Yeah, the LDS are big fans of mixed-orientation marriage - it's a clown show over there in Utah
Loved watching that. Very well articulated and put together. Whilst much of the internal establishment differs from the Pentecostal tradition, a lot of the same motivations and views are found. I appreciate what you're doing to help bring perspective and understanding.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you. I was one of those kids who tried so hard, i almost hanged myself. You put into words what i couldn't, but came to realize when i meditated in a psych ward.
So glad that you're still here with us, friend! It's not an easy process leaving, but I'm soooo glad you were able to find help. Many blessings!
Hey, I actually ended up finally coming out to my mom (a VERY traditional Latin mass catholic) and it's amazing how people like her only recite what they've been taught. She gave me the typical "it's okay, it's not a sin for having those feelings, but you just can't act on it" and the classic "it's an abomination". I guess before I saw this video I've always felt the exact feeling that you've so methodically laid out, I just didn't have the words to say it.. "they just don't know what to do with me"
The more faithful a Catholic is, the more of an NPC they become. Sorry to hear she had a negative reaction when you came out!! We’re here for you, friend 🙏
@@GayExTrad Hey thanks! That REALLY means a lot to me. The whole situation sucks bc it's like her brain physically cannot construct thoughts outside of her ideology, so it's impossible to engage in REAL CONVERSATION with her. I also wanted to say that it is SO comforting to know that I'm not alone and that there ARE other people who were raised just like me, on the extreme side of the faith in a household where listening to famous exorcists, prepping for the 3 days of darkness, and the unceasing praise of people like anne catherine emmerich was a daily occurrence. Keep making these types of videos for sure!
@@TimidDreams absolutely! Shoot me an e mail - I'd love to talk further
@@GayExTrad Hey awesome! I'd love to as well! Is it linked somewhere on your channel by any chance?
The Church does not forbid gay Catholics from experiencing love or forming close relationships. Loving another person, regardless of gender, is not considered sinful. However, it views sexual activity outside of marriage as sinful, believing that the proper context for sex is within marriage between a man and a woman. Both heterosexual and homosexual acts outside marriage are considered sins. The difference is that same-sex couples cannot marry in the Catholic Church, while opposite-sex couples who engage in premarital relations can eventually marry to align with Church teachings. Allowing a gay person into the priesthood, I think, could be seen as creating a situation that may not align with traditional expectations of celibacy, much like how placing a priest in a convent would feel out of place. Divorced individuals also cannot remarry in the Catholic Church. To me, this highlights the Church's consistency-it all hinges on whether its teachings on homosexuality are valid or not. I believe they are; you seem to feel otherwise. Have you heard of Opus Dei numeraries or associates? They are lay Catholics, yet they live a single, celibate life. They aren’t religious but secular. How do you see them fitting into your understanding of Catholic vocations?
While most people are indeed called to marriage, there are also lay Catholics who commit to lifelong celibacy. You have missed out on so many nuances but I do feel your frustrations .
Thank you for the thoughtful comment and your input! Yes, there is some degree of grey area surrounding private vows, consecrated virgins, and other semi-vocations. The theology of these states in life seem quite novel and acceptance within the church quite dubious - but they perhaps come closest to what a gay person in the church could find as a fulfilling avenue of service while having some sort of institution/cultural recognition.
This is a straw man. Take the homosexual 'sex act' out of it. Can gay people now marry and have relationships? because you know, homosexuals' relationships don't revolve around anal sex. Plenty of them don't even engage in that. So are 'chaste' gay relationships ok? Of course not, because then you'll say it's a 'near occasion of sin'. And don't forget that the very ATTRACTION to the same sex is considered 'intrinsically disordered' aka ordered to that which is not good. So no, you lied when you said that 'falling in love is okay'. No it isn't. The Church considers it as a sign of disorder which. must not be indulged. Your theology is cruel. It calls the love gay people have for each other 'intrinsically disordered'. Shame.
Opus Dei have advocated breaking the seal of confession for gay catholics. They exploit the faithful in service of powerful ruthless authoritarians. They practice slavery under the cover of religion.
Hey,
So I liked a lot of what you had to say, and I’ve certainly observed it in the church. Moreover I think we need more such discussions in the church. But my experience has been quite different in many ways to what you’ve described.
I’m Catholic and have same sex attraction, and I absolutely agree the church needs to figure out what to do with people like me as the present way isn’t working. But I’ve also received a lot of love and understanding from priests and laypeople who know this about me. I am also celibate and have been for 18 years (I haven’t masturbated for that long either). Yes, sometimes I get frustrated and think “what if”. I still have many unanswered questions. But I know that what the church asks is possible, and I know that I’m much happier than I was when I was having sex and masturbating. I could never reconcile my religion with my attraction, so I chose my religion. I do have many good male friendships that I’ve had to work at (and the most important of these know my struggle). I know it’s only my experience, but I know there’s others like me. I absolutely concede your point that no one actually knows about what such a life looks like, and this is something I’m trying to work out how to address. I think the church needs to take away the taboo on having the attraction.
And you’re absolutely right: I think of all the actual gay/SSA (whatever term you want) people I know personally, I’m the only one that is doing what I’m doing, so the statistics aren’t there either.
Again, I can only give my experience, but I wanted to share as this is something very important to me though I guess I’m coming at from the other end somewhat.
I’m really grateful for your video. I think it’s raised some very important problems that need to be addressed, and it’s nice to see someone seeing some of the things I’m seeing as well.
If it works for you, more power to ya! I appreciate the kind comment and you sharing your perspective - it sounds like you’ve built a great life that you’re content with. Maybe the world needs to hear more of your voice if you were to ever consider making a channel! I’d certainly subscribe. Many blessings to you!!
@ thanks so much for your reply. Yeah, I’m getting closer and closer to just going to my bishop and talking to him about it. I think of myself as a young Catholic and I would’ve loved to hear about someone that’s has experienced what I’ve experienced, but you just don’t hear about it. And no one wants to really talk about it.
Thanks, maybe one day I will make a channel. If I do I’ll definitely have good discussion with you :)
Another great video! You are a beautiful person and I'm glad you are here to share your life and views with us. Keep being awesome!
Thank you! Will do!
I was raised Catholic, and the attitude of the Catholic Church, coupled with the abuse scandal, drove me to believe that religion was the cause of all evil. It wasn’t until I found Judaism that I found spiritual fulfillment and community acceptance of my whole self. That won’t be the solution for everyone (conversion is hard and takes years!), but it works for me.
That's so awesome!! I've heard many good things about judaism
@ from a Gay perspective, queer members are welcome in most synagogues, and same-sex marriages are performed by most rabbis. Also: debate and disagreement are built into the religion and we’re all expected to be able to respectfully disagree with each other.
@@ajvanbreen That's awesome!
And then if you look at subreddits like “SSAChristians” or “SSACatholics”, most seem like they are suffering from depression, spiritual isolation, and anxiety about/in their celibacy.
Yup - 'ssa support groups' are some of the most depressing comments on planet earth - and the worst part is most of their problems could be solved if they just stopped being catholic
I participate in these groups and unfortunately that is true. SSA is a huge cross to bear, but I'm sure their sufferings will be recompensated with the beatific vision of God in Paradise. 😃
That's my only hope, as I also have SSA. You cannot escape suffering on Earth because of the original Sin, only to choose it.
Thank you for this video. I'm very happy I left the church, and I feel more free than ever before; I am still religious, though I can safely say I no longer drive myself insane worrying about every inkling of thought that goes through me, nor do I feel like I was born as a disgusting creature for having "disorganized thoughts," etc. I'm happily in love with my partner, and I don't have to be alone for my entire life. Infernalism and the fear and control that is baked into it is truly a sick thing.
I tried everything; I read everything; I attended classes; nothing changed. I still hated myself. Love yourself while you can, love those around you, and live your life. Don't allow the fear of this institution to control every fiber of your being; realize it for what it is-a controlling organization that cares nothing for you.
So glad you found your way out and into a religious community that accepts you! That's so awesome to hear
It really scares me the amount of people say they left church or they ex catholics, that is the THE worst thing you can do, your personal relationship with God/Jesus, Holy Mary, and everyone else is what counts. No matter what priests are saying, no matter what church opinion is, no matter anything, you are always part of the Church, you can always practice the sacraments, you are not forbidden to be a part of it, you can do everything what straight people do, Jesus loves us all no matter what some old pervert priests think. I am gay and I couldnt care less if my Catholic church thinks im sick or crazy, I know what I feel for the Heavenly Family and no opinion can change that. Never abandon church because someone thinks you shouldn’t be part of it, they have no clue. Just pray for them and yourself for the Lord to lead you, no one can touch you. Chastity? God is not going to unlove you if you find a person who you love. So dont worry about that, not even for a tiniest bit. Those who judge you and claim to be the best Jesus superstars are so delusional, and just because of their judgement only they literally negate everything they think they believe in, so they are basically no where. Have faith and it will be great
that sure sounds like you're in a cult
I was a cradle Catholic. I am abstinent, but the Church suborned suicide to me through it's doctor St. John Chrysostom when I was 13. He wrote that I would be better off dead. He wrote that I was worse than a murderer because murderers destroy the body where as gay men destroy the soul within the body.
That led me to fear myself too much to have same-sex friends. That led me to devalue my life so that I felt cheated by God when he didn't allow me to die from my first cancer at 29. I was only able to have a male friend when I met someone who wasn't contaminated with the Church's evil. That's the only reason I am still alive.
Thank you for this video ! 💜👌
You're so welcome!
Fantastic Video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I felt deep sorrow that you've left the Catholic Church but I hope that your belief in God continues. As a gay man and a Catholic Christian, I believe in true love which has no conditions. God has created humankind from his almighty love, a love which has no end because it's an eternal love. In my own experience, I asked God (through silent prayer) to tell me what I should do about my sexuality. The response I received was to keep being my true self, the person who God has created. It's my business who I am and I don't see the point in telling the whole of humanity. There's no heterosexual who feels compelled to shout out their sexuality so why is it important for many LGBTQIA+ people to shout it out. Nobody on this Earth has the right to call you or any other LGBTQIA+ person, a sinner. You may recall that God says in the scriptures that no mankind is called to judge others, only the Creator (God) is the judge. As my Catholic priest preaches, anyone who points a finger should be mindful of the judgement which returns to them because there's many fingers pointing back.
None of my words can make you decide what is the right thing to do but I hope that somehow, the Holy Spirit. is speaking a poignant message to you through them. If this happens, Praise Jesus Christ. 🙂
So glad to hear a positive Catholic perspective - many blessings to you too!!
Great content! I used to be on the front lines of this fight with the Evangelical movement, but there's nothing left of that work except an argument about the President-Elect
Glad you enjoyed! Yeah, the evangelical movement is going downhill
In the mid 90’s I was visiting Italy with a friend and his boyfriend who was a Franciscan (priest?/brother?) anyway he knew some other guys who were on staff at the Vatican. So we spent the afternoon there eating cherries with a room full of gay clergy and non-clergy Vatican staff.
that's the majority of clerics for you, haha, good times
Really great video, as always. Most of the people who should see it won't, but at least you might save some lives.
I hope so!
The Catholic Church is quite clear on the issue as is Sacred Scripture and Sacred tradition which is backed up by natural law. We all have crosses to bear and fight to overcome. That being said I will offer prayers for you. -Traditionalist Catholic
Natural law is made up, and dare I saw your other two sources
christians sure are callous
@@GayExTrad Denying that reality exists to justify decadent behavior doesn’t make it so.
“We all have crosses to bear” realistically, how would you respond if the church told you you needed to stay celibate for the rest of your life? If celibacy is so easy, and it’s just another cross to bear, why do people get married?
Well said. The number of times I've been told that the only "true love and happiness" that I could ever experience as a gay person was if I was pushed off to the side to remain single while the rest of those around me get married.🙄
No literally - it's just a vacuous phrase
Nailed it. So eloquently.
🙏🙏
I'm not Catholic, but I am a Christian. My first reaction was that just leaving in protest makes sense if a person loves God but cannot find a place within the institution. Being a Christian doesn't require institutional affiliation. But, I guess it is hard to leave for many who have been brought up Catholic, imbued with that sect's teachings. Your discussion here is enlightening. I'm glad to learn in detail about everything you have covered. Almost any gay Christian will have gone through this experience in most sects. The Biblical interpretation about homosexuality, rooted in heterosexual, patriarchal prejudices that stretch back millennia is hard to uproot. I am in the last quarter of my life, and as a protestant Christian, I had the same struggles you describe. I married a woman, had children (twins), and lived a celibate life in the marriage after the children were conceived. My reasons were spiritual. It is hard now after the children have grown. I have a disabled son, so I still have a reason to stay in the relationship, and as time goes by, all couples become more entangled in so many ways to make separation difficult. In old age, there isn't much in the world anymore to go to or hope for (though personalities differ). If I were young and knew what I do now, I think my life could have included a happy marriage to a man I loved, but so many circumstances prevented me, not least my inability to reconcile my homosexuality with my faith. But Robert Frost was right, I shall never be able to go back for good or ill:
"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
Wow - thank you so much for sharing! I'm not sure I have the words to speak into your experience, but I wish you the best!!
Love your content! As a gay catholic, I see myself in the experiences you describe. Just wanted to point out that there are some (not a lot, but they exist) active voices in the Church promoting a REAL inclusive approach to homossexuality, like Fr. James Martin, Sister Jeannine Grammick and others. If you are catholic, LGBTQ+ and not wanting to waste your life living in agony repressing the natural desire to be in a loving relationship, there is hope. The path is not easy, and most parishioners may not understand you, but there is hope for change. I am Brazilian, catholic, gay, in a relationship and part of a diversity ministry in my diocese. The Church is for everyone and there are people working for change. Peace and good to everyone!
Both heretics.
While I can appreciate that your church is LGBTQ+ inclusive, I feel inclined to point out that no one is asking for churches to be for everyone. After all, I can't think of a single person that would be ok with a known child molester or murderer being in their church. However, it is well beyond the point where religion should've woken up and realized that there's just nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality. I don't care how many gay people you know that live what you would consider to be bad lives. There are plenty of gay people living wonderful lives. Enough is enough. I'm so tired of having to defend my sexuality to religious bigots.
@@ryanscottlogan8459 Not acordding to the Pope, which has supported their ministry in many instances. LGBTQ catholics exist, have existed and will continue to exist until the end of times. Hopefully there will always be people like them that make these existences bearable and meaningful. May God bless you and open your heart to the suffering of others.
@@scottmoore7588 You are right. This should be a non issue, whether you are religious or not. The Pope has recently made declarations in support of the legal protection of LGBTQ unions and made pretty strong declarations aggainst prejudice of any kind towards LGBTQ people, which is grave sin. It is sad that many people still use religion to hurt and to oppress others, specially when the main concern of he Gospel is with freedom, peace and universal love. I am sorry for all the bigotry you have endured. This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Sr. Jeanine Grammick has been plugging along with her message for the past forty years at least, bless her heart, and in all that time the church hasn’t budged an inch - indeed it has only doubled down under Pope Francis. Sr. Grammick will be long dead before even the slightest change occurs. All that work will have been for naught:
63-year-old gay, daily Mass going Catholic here, with the same man for the last 31 years. And thoroughly Jesuit trained. Let me try to help a bit, here, as you make some great points, but there are some very important points "missing".
The Catholic Church does not have, at all, a "2,000-year-long history" of being against gay people. In fact, we had just about nothing, at all, to say about being gay until around the year 1100AD (that's a full 1,000 years into our Church). Cf., John Boswell (who taught me), "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality" (1980), and "Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe" (1994). These works of the utmost scholarship from original-language sources in our history put paid to the idea that the Church has "always" been against us. Not only is that not true, we celebrated "gay unions", in various forms, and for a long time.
But while we're "waiting" to get rid of this "intrinsically disordered" nonsense (and that's exactly what Cardinal McElroy of San Diego calls it), ALL Catholics have a "nuclear option" which, of course, the institutional Church hopes we'll "forget". The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that your own CONSCIENCE is the "highest moral authority" and that "you have the right to act according to your conscience" and that "nobody should be forced to act contrary to their own consciences." THAT is the "highest magisterium" in this Church. And any pope, bishop, priest who tells you that that isn't so is quite simply and provable... wrong. (I quite simply, and openly, "ignore" the hedging that my conscience should be "upright and true", or "well-formed", as I AM the one doing the forming; you can't tell me my conscience is the highest moral arbiter.. and then say, "but only if your conscience agrees with mine"?)
Thomas Aquinas himself goes as far as to say "a person must follow his conscience, even if it is mistaken!"
Despite this lunacy that "the Church's Teaching never changes" - that teaching once said it was just fine to drown "witches"; to burn (even saints!) at the stake; and to charge money so you could get a rebate on the time you had to spend in purgatory (we lost half the Church to Protestantism over that gem of "Church Teaching" - ... it does change. And often.
We can all find reasons for being separated from the Love of God; in the case of gay people like myself, many, many practical reasons. But my CONSCIENCE teaches me, before and above anything else, AS a Catholic. I hope this might have helped, if only just a bit. Peace be with you.
The primacy of conscience clause is virtually never taught in Catholic Churches. It might as well not exist, because for all practical purposes, it doesn’t. And by the way, I too knew John Boswell in New Haven. His monumental work is now almost entirely forgotten, as though it too never existed.
@@thomasniel2009 John left us much too early. Are we classmates?! I'm JE 80, Law 83. Of course, you are right on both counts here, but I was simply trying to give our younger brother an "out" (or an "in", depending on how one looks at it). I suppose, in the end, I think it's complicated, but not "that" complicated. As others below have noted, if the pastor at "that" church isn't welcoming, find one who is? Because so many are living (often willingly?) without the history Boswell gave us, or the primacy of conscience, doesn't actually make them any less.. existent? I mean, if one wants to find reasons to stay with the Church (I was baptized and confirmed into it, I'm as much a part of it as anyone else), we'll find them. And if people are happy just dumping on it, they're free to do so? Anyway, boola boola brother!
@@gerardmcgorian7070 I was in the grad school from 81-83, though I won't say which one here (not law). I heard Boswell lecture on several occasions and of course read his books. He lived in a high-rise apartment building right across the street from Partners bar where a good friend of mine lived and I saw him at the pool there and talked with him several times. It is sad that the church has openly rejected his work or found ways to contradict or demean it, as has indeed happened, but mostly it's just forgotten.
More about Boswell: Did you know he spoke more than forty languages (including several dead ones) fluently and learned a new language every year as his lenten discipline? It's true. He told me so himself.
@@thomasniel2009- Than the church leaders are wrong but not the faith.
Yes, living life reasonably free and happy does require independent thinking and research. And depending from which social/religious nest you come, also some tits and balls.
@@thomasniel2009 He and I were very close friends, he was actually my undergrad advisor, I majored in the philosophy of language, so, yes, I am well aware of his brilliant background.
Hey, I just saw your second interview on dragons of victory. really liked it. So why not interview him for a future episode on your show. You two have really good chemistry
He's great!
Hello, gay Coloradan and former very conservative catholic here as well. I've had a partner for a number of years. When I say "former" I mean, I'm no longer actively engaging in the church, but I still live my life by much of the precepts in as much as I believe in doing good, "love one another", etc. I still consider myself Catholic, in as much as that is how my view of the human person and the world conform to most. But don't feel I've had a place in the church either. I have found personally, that much of the philosophical and metaphysical underpinnings and worldview of Catholicism make the most sense to me as well, in as much as justifying a reasoned basis to believe in Monotheism, the Aristotelean conception of knowledge and personhood, etc. Obviously, I've found that the moral evolution of Catholicism, especially in regards to the LGBTQ issues has been severely lacking, impractical and not keeping up with the major scientific and psychological developments in the area of human sexuality. And it seems unfortunately, that every time that those within the church whom are willing to make progress on the issue (such as pope Francis), are pulled back by the most conservative voices and members and beaten back into conformance. I'm curious to know where you are at currently in your spiritual journey - if you have completely abandoned a monotheistic view, joined a more affirming branch of Christendom, or feel more compelled to be an agnostic or atheist now?
Thanks for sharing, friend! I know many people that have remained in the church and found a supportive catholic community. I personally don't espouse a monotheistic view of the world and have left religion all together - one of the many ideas I have for future videos. Keep living your best lift, friend!!
Jason Evert. I would love if you did videos on him. He came to my Catholic high school years ago. I see that him and his wife are on the anti trans train.
I got one up about him on my channel already!
@@GayExTrad just saw it. I would also like to see you react to his entire chastity talks like romance without regret
Great video!
I love that you pointed out the contrast between what the apologists say when they want you to become or stay Catholic vs what they REALLY think when they're talking to eachother. I'm tired of the bait and switch with friendly apologists vs insane statements from saints, popes, councils, and modern Catholics talking to themselves. The Catholicism of Peter Kreeft is almost a different religion from the Catholicism of Michael Voris.
I also had no idea that that 2005 document says that gay people have a hard time making friends or relating to both men or women because of their sexual orientation. That is delusional and it's sad that people believe that.
The bait-and-switch is exactly how cults work - it's so sad to see!
Cade, having watched the 50-minute video with your story and now this one, I feel like there's a lot I wish I could talk to you. Your story is like mine but mine has been slower and not so polarized at such an early age. I'm a bit older than you, I'm 29, turning 30 in 3 months. I'm from Mexico (and to begin with, Catholicism in Mexico has a kind of different flavor and cultural and historical context than Catholicism in the U.S.)
I guess that like you, there was a time I was so passionate about (conservative) Catholicism but never reaching to the radical traditionalist wing, which I see is more common in the U.S. In my case, it was thanks to my knowledge of english I came to know and be influenced by U.S. catholic media (EWTN, Catholic Answers, Bishop Barron, Fr. Mike Schmitz, Jason Evert etc.)
Long story short, I'm currently on the phase of learning to accept my sexuality but not rejecting Christianity but rather reconciling them, and it has been mostly thanks to two things: 1) The constant hostility that conservative catholicism both in the U.S. and latin america has over Pope Francis (that kind of blew away for me the whole idea of the Catholic Church being the church with the pure and perfect doctrine that catholic apologists always said to be); and 2) knowing the Episcopal Church online.
I see that in your case, your closeness to radical traditionalism gave you a very pre-Vatican II punishment-based view of sin and hell. In my case, I always suscribed to Bishop Barron's view on hell which was not viewed as a punishment but rather as a state of self-exclusion, even to holding to Bishop Barron's view that hell might even be empty. I guess that more balanced view on hell and sin has kind of prevented me from going to that extreme.
I have slowly come to accept myself as a gay man thanks to the Episcopal Church. I was so blown away by learning that many of the beautiful things I loved about catholic worship, theology and spirituality are in the Episcopal Church while accepting and affirming LGBT people and relationships. Problem in my case, since I'm from Mexico, I only watch Episcopal Church masses online, which still give me a lot of peace. (Note: The Anglican Church of Mexico is not as affirming yet as the U.S. Episcopal Church.)
I still think the Catholic Church can and should develop a much better pastoral approach to SSA/LGBT people even without changing its doctrine. I think that the document Fiducia Supplicans is a good starting point to that.
But I agree with you that even with that, the Catholic Church with its current doctrine offers a very abstract and almost impossible life for SSA/LGBT people to live with, and I don't see a way how that doctrine could honestly change in a coherent catholic development of doctrine. That's why even Fiducia Supplicans needs to reiterate over and over again that doctrine is not being changed even while it is opening the door to a pastoral gesture that certainly made trads very angry.
So I guess right now my question for you at the moment would be, have you ever considered exploring LGBT-affirming christian denominations like the Episcopal Church or an independent catholic church?
Here in Mexico there's so very very few and small progressive christian churches. I envy a lot you guys in the U.S. that have so many great progressive and inclusive churches.
If you allow me to recommend 2 books to you would be the books Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology, and From Sin to Amazing Grace: Discovering the Queer Christ, both by Rev. Patrick Cheng (a gay episcopalian priest from New York). Trust me, I was totally blown away by those two books.
Anyways, forgive my long comment, it has been good discovering your videos and I hope they provoke some good thought and conversation for people on both sides of the debate.
@@carlosvillarreal6743 What an amazing comment! I appreciated very much the way you analyzed and responded to the comments made in that video. I don’t entirely agree with everything you said, but I do agree that it is very necessary for the Catholic Church to spend more time, intellectual effort and charitable service in working out a more humane theology that genuinely aids men and women who are SSA. I don’t agree that promoting SSA relationships is the way to do that - as seems to be the case with Episcopalians - but I do agree that we (as a Church first, and as a result, by the Grace of God, a society and culture) must become more understanding, compassionate, affirming of SSA individuals who are trying to work out how to live their lives as disciples of Christ. I make the analogy that we are all on a pilgrimage to God in this life. The road that we must take is not at all distinctly clear but St Peter is leading this pilgrimage and tries to shine a light on the path when it is dark. To make it even more challenging, we don’t all walk with the same ease. Some are more agile, others are more fragile and still others cannot walk at all. The destination, as it turns out, is not entirely about arriving to a point (Union with God) but largely about how we help each other on the way there. I’ll keep your efforts to that end in my prayers even as I ask the same from you. From the places and perspectives that the good Lord in his wisdom has positioned us, as far apart and distant as that may be, He can and does direct us to work for a common end, a common goal, a better world for those of us who are different than the ideal. We may never meet in this life @carlosvillareal743 but our efforts in this life by the grace of God can converge in God and make it a better place for everyone! La Paz contigo!!
Thanks for leaving such a well thought-out comment, Carlo! I can tell this is something you've thought about a lot. I think even agreeing that people can have different versions of catholicism breaks the magic 'infallibility' of the church. I certainly agree that many different people can have different spiritual beliefs - even find immense peace in them. Approaching religion from a human perspective allows us to be flexible and flourish - but I think it's a long shot to then say objectively speaking that it is THE divine agents' will in the world. I think the church should develop its doctrine and be more like the Episcopal church - allowing queer folks to stay in their religious communities - but I doubt the church will ever actually change. I don't have time for the pastoral approach route - I don't want platitudes, I want to be accepted. I think religion and sexuality can be reconciled, but to chalk that reconciliation up to an objective god seems like a stretch.
Hey I like your stuff. I find one very unfortunate aspect of American Catholics, and particularly Catholics from more traditionalist backgrounds (myself included), is that they often struggle to see the Church as anything other than another ideology --- maybe the best ideology, the "one true" ideology, but an ideology nonetheless. A self enclosed complete system of intelectual assent (this is a very OKAY definition of ideology but I don't want to get sidetracked). There's an historic and philosophical undercurrent that I think makes Catholics box in the church like this that I can't fault people for. If you approach the Church like an ideology, I'd have a tough time disagreeing with anything you've said. But if you look at the Church as a people united mystically and sacramentally to Jesus Christ (which I think is a truer and I'd say more historical way of seeing the Church), you're a bit more at peace with the fact that the Church changes like a flower changes. You don't see "infallible" in a sweeping objective prescriptive way. I spent time with the SSPX, the FSSP and other Latin Mass communities and I'm always a bit shocked by how these groups don't see how they look at the world through very modern categories while they think they're somehow holding on to some "purer" version of the apostolic Faith. I just don't agree at all. Take for instance the many many traditionalists who hold a very fundamentalist view of evolution. On the surface, they appear to be holding on to an older view and justify it due to its antiquity. But they forget that the Church never really endorsed such a fundamentalist view NOT because the Church is better, or wiser -- it's just that people didn't experience the world reducing things to scientific categories. Even Augustine said that the world was clearly not made in seven days. But with the proliferation of science in modernity, many Christians (and yes, even Catholics --- but not as much as American Christians) thought that science was at odds with their stories and so then approached science antagonistically. But the Church then wrestled with these new categories and eventually (and by historical standards I'd say quickly) saw that science and faith didn't really contradict each other as much as they were in two different categorical universes. What does this have to do with gay stuff? Well for one, the concept of homosexuality as we know it today is historically new. And it's new because heterosexuality as we know it is new. Until maybe 300 years ago, the idea of falling in love with someone and getting married was kind of a novelty. People used to think it was weird that St. Thomas More loved his wife. In those days, before the pill, before women's products, men hung around men, and women hung around women. People got married as was politically or socially convenient, and lots had little side affairs going on (both with opposite and same sex). This is how much of the Islamic world still operates today. Kind of a big don't ask don't tell. Any way, the church finds itself now wresting with this question --- and it's messy.
Sorry typing on my phone as I wait for the bus so I hope this is more or less coherent. Keep up the great work.
Very good points, friend! I’ll have to give it a second read - clearly you’ve thought about this topic very deeply
First off, great job at summarizing complex theology in an accessible way! Though I’m curious to see how people like Bishop Baron or Fr Mike Schmidt would respond to these charges.
My relationship with Catholicism has been bitter-sweet. I’d say there were good things about it and also horrific things about it. Net of it all, I decided what’s best for me was to tap out and live my life on my own terms instead of trying to fit a square peg into a circle that’s not at all designed for me - much to the protest of apologists.
I wouldn’t have been the actuary (fancy statistics person at an insurance company) that I am now had I not had my elementary and high school education with the Jesuits. The focus on academic excellence was foundational to my love for mathematics which then became pivotal to my career trajectory.
That said, it came with the massive price of self-hatred and low sense of self-worth growing up in an unapologetically queerphobic space. The novena masses to Saint Jude, along with hours of Eucharistic adoration, and rosary after rosary to remove my same sex attraction clearly did not work as advertised!
It also didn’t help that the parish priest I turned to while my faith was unraveling in university recommended that I participate in Courage. It’s a ministry for those experiencing same sex attraction. In sum and substance, it’s conversion therapy without it being called that. The church now dances around how that ministry is marketed (because conversion therapy is illegal in some jurisdictions), but an astute observer should be able to piece it together fairly quickly.
My relationship with the Church now is complicated. It’s a large part of my family’s (parents’ generation and up) identity and is used to process communal emotions like grief, joy, solidarity in hardship, etc. I’m still learning to have honest and respectful conversations with active believers on this specific topic or on what led to my apostasy/atheism without setting off their threat responses.
I guess a good next topic is how to navigate this space of being queer and formerly Catholic, but still regularly interacting with religious folks who, for lack of a better word, have willfully backwards view of things, and have constructive dialogue/allow for them to be welcomed fully into our new, authentically gay and secular lives.
It seems like you've been on quite the journey, friend! So glad to hear that you're finally out 🙏. I agree, the hard things in dealing with being formerly catholic, is that being catholic formed so much of who we are - and in many ways, made us better people. And it's tough to also hold that it severely damaged us and hindered us from fully actualized lives. But, c'est le vie. I shall add that idea to to my future video list!
I grew up catholic and went catholic school grades 1 to 12. I can't but help and remember how many " flamboyant " priests and brothers we had and all of the masculine looking and acting nuns. And yet no one could seem to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what was really going on. My catholic high school has been in the news in the last few years for firing the vice principal when he was found to be a homosexual and and long time English teacher who was there perhaps a dozen years when she " confessed " that her female " roommate " was more than just a roommate . So as long as you were liar about yourself to the outside world all was good . Tell the truth and goodbye . I still get a newsletter about 3 or 4 times a year asking me for money. Yikes ! I recently heard a radio documentary which said that the only thing keeping the catholic church going in the united states is the growing Latino population. My very white church which used to have 3 masses on Sunday now only has 1. The grade school I grew up in is barely hanging on even with consolidation with other schools. People for the most part do not want to have 7 to 14 children, want to use birth control and almost everyone has grown up with openly gay people, family, friends, co workers. Just from a financial situation I don't see how these " teachings " from before most of us were born are going to work. People no longer live in small insular places. You can move to a new city or state, change religions or decide to join the fastest growing religion in this country which none. Ok catholic church, the ball is now in your court.
Exactly! Yes, it's true that the only way catholicism is keeping up is through a larger latino population and also conservative politics, but are latino friends also seem to be catching on that the church is a sinking ship and leaving in droves to. Nobody wants to adhere to the antiquated, mandatory rules of the church.
I grew up a Christian and was always told it's not sinful to have same sex attraction but acting on it is . I did not chose to be Bisexual it's who i am and i ain't sorry, and i ain't changing for no one. This is who i am you either like me or dont. I left religion 9 years ago. I said to my family I'm not going to spend the rest of my live pretending to be someone I'm not. I'm Bi and I'm not ashamed.
No sin in being born LGBT
So glad to hear you found your way out! You don't need to change for anyone
@GayTradSpeaks Thank you. You too be yourself and be happy. And don't let any tell you any different. Stay strong bro and stay being your true self.
@@GayExTrad There is no way of changing sexual orientations, and why should there be, but we can choose our bigotry or not to have any at all!
Homophobia is a sin.
I like the sentiment
So well said and laid out. I’m not a Catholic, I’m Mormon and related so much to so many of the points you made. Thank you.
The LDS & traditional Catholic experience of the world are so similar!
Interesting! I haven't heard about that before. Yeah, most documents about homosexuality are in the 80s/90s and just seem to have stuck for no reason
This hits so close to home and is a big reason why I left the church. People try to “reassure” queer Catholics that “we’re all called to be chaste!” It’s so tone deaf.
Precisely! It's so maddening for straight catholics to do the whole 'well, I'm attracted to people I'm not attracted to' schtick, as if it were even in the same realm of experience
Ok straight Catholics, you be " chaste " too, Let's see how long it lasts
I agree. Goes for all religions as if gays are not part of humanity. Its them that are not.
precisely
Before I watch the video, a blind message here. As a catholic man, perhaps we put too much emphasis on homosexuality being a “ sin”. In my eyes if you are homosexual (obviously a sin) that’s no different than me sinning in the ways that I do. Love the sinner, hate the sin is what I preach. Not so much to say “ hate the gays” but as a Christian, trying to live right. As “ Christian’s” we get carried away though, because by trying to live right, sometimes we live by hate and disdain for others. And it’s not right.
From a catholic man to you, I preach love, just as Jesus wanted me too. Keep loving the way you do. Love is better than no love.
Would love to hear your thoughts after you’re done too!
As a gay man I agree with you am so proud of you and for the record your not alone 💯:) wish you good things
🙏🙏 many blessings to you too!
You spoke about where all the lgbt Catholics went. I think you found them in your comments. It’s amazing how each person’s journey is different yet so similar at same time. Great video!
haha, it seems like I've turned into a bit of the pied piper
@ Pride piper haha
@@travelingtherapist740 Imma have to steal that line 😂😂
I just saw your comment on the I tried to be straight podcast. You were really good on that show. I hope they have you back. Do you know when we can expect your next video ? Do you want to give a hint about what it is ? Take care
Glad you enjoyed the interview! I talk to Nate a lot but most likely won't be back on the podcast. My next video should be posted next week - it's a breakdown of how the influencer Care Ellington was radicalized. On my patreon, I have some the existing outline and will have early access there.
@@GayExTrad They should have you back, you still have a lot to say ! How are you doing handling the election results ?
@@charlesritt5088 I'm fine with the election - I'm here to fight, not mope
@@GayExTrad I wish I could have your attitude
Repeatedly, I'm seeing in the comments how you were able to put into words what many of us could only hold in our hearts. Thank you, Cade
You're very welcome - it's an honor to speak on behalf of so many of us who've been hurt
Have you ever noticed how Jesus responded to the religious people of His time? By the way He addressed them in Matthew 22 --it’s clear that He wasn’t a fan of religion. In fact, He taught that religion crushes people and makes them carry a burden too heavy to endure.
Religion uses guilt and fear to try to keep you in line. Its rules are designed to force your steps, and it relies on systems and rituals to earn God’s approval. When you’re taught that you have to do certain things to earn God’s blessings or avoid His punishment, that’s religion.
When you think about it, Jesus came to end all religion. He didn’t come to teach us more rules to follow in order to earn our relationship with God. He came to die in our place to secure that relationship for all who believe.
Religion weighs people down with unrealistic expectations, but Jesus sets us free❣️
-- Matthews 22:36-40
Love it!
I'm lucky I'm in Asia. Buddhism or Taoism are religions that never judge people. All these LGBT issue in Christianity is just a non-issue in oriental religions.
Anyone can cultivate themselves - practice martial arts, practice meditation and attain enlightenment.
Love that!!
If your vocation is to be a healthy, sexually active, gay Catholic, then look no further than the OGs: Saints Sergius and Bacchus.
Let nobody on Earth -- lay or clergy, lead you astray from their example or teachings.
Remember, before the 1800s, no distinction existed between gay and straight. All of the early church prayed to this gay couple as an example of perfect love for each other and the divine.
If anybody attempts to punish you, then I strongly suggest you call them out for their hypocrisy and blasphemy.
Very cool!
A late friend of mine who was a gay man and a cradle Roman Catholic said to me. “The only way I could be a Catholic and maintain my self respect as a human being was to join the Episcopal Church.”
Love it! 😂
I'm an aroace woman. If I had stayed Catholic and forced myself to live a traditional life of getting married and have kids I probably would have killed myself by now because that life sounds like hell to me. Becoming a nun wasn't an option either because that also sounds like hell.
So glad that you were able to find a way out and live life on your terms!!
I wish I could do better for you, but that's just the way it is. This is the doctrine God has revealed to the church, and this is the doctrine the church presents for belief. Those who reject it reject what God has revealed.
In te Domine, speravi.
This is the doctrine the church has said a divine agent has revealed to it - who knows what a god may think
@GayTradSpeaks The Church knows.
God didn't make the Church oppose the creation of a national suicide hotline be cause it mentioned gays among other groups. You're blaming God is. blasphemous.
My original post was lost so I'll say God allowed his son to die for all of us. It took me a long time to learn that God didn't want me or others like me to wallow in self-hatred but to accept his grace from Jesus.
I don't understand the Catholic Church's stance, but I believe that if God allowed his perfect son to die for us then no one has the right to refuse access to those who wish to come.❤
Interesting perspective - thanks for sharing, friend!
I went to Mass with my husband a couple of weeks ago. I put my arm around him during the sermon. I kissed him at the sign of peace. We received communion.
Did we get some weird looks? Maybe. I just don’t give two fucks anymore.
Good for you!!
Good work!
Thank you! Cheers!
Hey, catholic guy here, just wanted to say I'm deeply sorry and scandalized that the people you met didn't take time to understand and accompany you and have been judgemental. And more importantly, that you were told that you absolutely have to get married and that all encounters with men are near occasions of sin (that's just them forcing their scrupulosity on you imo). One seminarian told me that gay people can have a vocation and even love and fecundity in the same way as straight people who can never find a partner (that's a more well-known case in the church).But it's true that a lot of church members are not doing their job of meeting people where they are and trying to walk the path with them.
🙏
6:58 can someone explain to me what was that bread from Argentina thing? 😅 I'm argentinian and i'm lost
Haha, there’s a Eucharistic miracle from Argentina that Catholic apologists love talking about
I know! But I try to fly below the radar with my family. They know I am a homosexual, but as long we don't talk about it, they treat me fine. I can't join the party and eat the cake with them, but it could be worse.
One day, you'll be out on your own and get to live life on your own terms! Wishing you the best, friend 🙏
The book “In the Closet of the Vatican ‘ by Frederick Martel is a real eye opener. In short it’s all too ridiculous and happy I’m an “apostate.”
I've heard good things about that book!
I’m Catholic, Gay, and in a relationship. I’m 66 and never felt guilty and knew that most church leaders are not Catholic, the basic church in the teachings of Christ to be build on the Rock Peter was. I am ok with Jesus’s teaching and feel very home in that church’s culture. Beautiful music, worship of the Virgin etc.
Today is all Saints. Tomorrow all Souls. ✝️ 🏳️🌈
That's awesome - so happy for you!! I know there's so many amazing, gay catholics who love the lord and their church community!
I dont go to church but i still practice catholic rites at home and i think it's still possible to be gay and catholic. A few other catholics are gay too but we arent so obvious about our faith. Tho we recognize tht the best way to approach it is to just have a normal partnership with the person we love. What i understand is tht the catholic church doesnt accept how homosexuality is with lust being the main component of the relationship since back then gay men only fucked for fun or something like that. If the relationship is purely non-sexual, im pretty sure there is nothing wrong with that since the main drive of christian love is to sacrifice for the other above oneself. So i would imagine tht if lust is sacrificing in place of love then the relationship is alright. At least tht is in my understanding of how it can work and a few others who think the same.
Yeah, there are many gay catholics in loving, committed relationships in which lust doesn't get in the way of love, yet sexuality is a core form of connection in their love
@@GayExTrad Also, don't forget that the Church condemns even chaste same sex relationships under the banner of 'near occasion to sin' and or 'scandal'. It is never just about the sex acts, because the attraction itself is 'intrinsically disordered'- aka ordered to that which is sinful, so must not be indulged in any manner whatsoever, sexual or not. They always default to 'its just the sex act' to make their theology seem less bigoted.
“They know the Lord more than you ever will.” That’s a pretty prideful and wild assumption. I’ll pray for you sir and hope you find much happiness. I do agree with you that the church does have some issues to deal with regarding homosexuality. I don’t think the answer is to disregard the church and making them out to be a bad guy. What about other religious communities that are just as bad or even worse? What about gay Catholics that have been able to find a happy life in the church?
I would my life savings that I could find a queer person who was significantly more religious that you
@ I’d also bet my life savings that I could find someone who knows more than them. We can go back and forth and play this game.
@ also who are you to judge someone else’s convictions and their devoutness in their faith? Also without having a conversation with me. 😂
@@mitchellandersen9199 I must admit this is my new favorite conversation chain under my video - previously it was someone telling me to try Islam. But having a pissing match over holiness is infinitely amusing to me
@@GayExTrad pretty amusing to me as well. I don’t take any of this stuff seriously as it is. Also love that you just avoided the questions too. Also to be fair, you’re the one that started the pissing contest. I wasn’t even calling myself holy. You’re a pretty silly fella! 😂 I’ll be praying for you and wishing you happiness though!
I'm finding this video to be very different from the previous two, longer ones. I don't like the jumpy video editing which is distracting, and the tone sounds like a preacher. In contrast, the previous two were very engaging. In other words, I find this one to be more of a rant and unfortunately can easily be dismissed, while the previous ones were more persuasive. Can you somehow return to your previous style?
For sure - I think different videos require different styles. This video is much more pointed and aggressive, while the other videos are much longer and story-based. Look forward to a variety of styles in future content - encompassing both the previous style and this style. I appreciate your input!
This some interesting context
🙏🙏🙏
4:27 believe me, theirs plenty of women with sexual issues would love a marriage like that lol
haha
One thing that helped me in the process is to stop worrying about being gay. I used to look down at me because of that, but these feelings stoped to haunt me when I focused on other things.
I'm still Catholic. Yes, SSA is part of me and I have to fight against these kinds of sinful thoughts and actions. Maybe I'm called for marriage. I know some gay guys who are happily married and have many children. Sometimes I have these dreams. Or maybe I'm called to be a priest or a monk. Being gay isn't a dead end for practicing Catholicism.
Next month I'm going to be baptized and the in full communion at the Church
Bruh, I hate to be so blunt, but it’s literally not worth it - aborting your conversion is going to save you years of your life from being wasted. I get being Catholic now seems cool, but it won’t in a few years when you leave
Doesn’t the Catholic Church command tbat there be genuine love and attraction between spouses? Thats why the Church very rarely recommends ‘mixed orientation marriages’. As a gay man, you will never be able to give your wife what she deserves- a person who actually is attracted to her, not one who pretends to do that. Gay men like you who never accept their sexuality have ruined enough women’s lives.
@@RationalistMH i wonder if maybe the fact that they dont give birth and also have the option to be distant from the families they were pressured to have, makes it easier for gay men to make that choice to settle for a loveless marriage for the sake of status...
Don't listen to anyone but God. Resist them. Go into God's arms. Enter the Church.
@@xxlolmasterxx9216 This
There is room for gay couples in the Catholic Church. Maybe where you are from they don’t have an open hearts ministry, or Courage or DignityUSA. I could tell you the community that I am apart of a Franciscan church community are very welcoming of both myself and my husband. There is room, and sometimes you need to make it.
Courage is NOT gay affirming. Please leave the Catholic Church alone.
Courage has five goals, the first of which is "To live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality". This comes directly from the Courage RC website. And what exactly is the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality?
CCC 2357: ...Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved...
There is no room in the Catholic Church for gay people, and there won't be until there is a drastic reform within the Church. I hope you can be part of that reform.
Hoping you can be a light to people in the church and make room for more gay people - wishing you the best!
Courage is for chastity not welcoming of gay couples
@@GayExTrad the Catholic Church welcomes individuals who experience SSA but that doesn’t mean they affirm, accept or celebrate homosexual relationships or people who embrace a homosexual identity .
Left for Reform Judaism, which is 100% egalitarian. Never been happier in a religious setting.
Love it!!
What is Reform Judaism like? I've been exploring some progressive Christian denominations and while I heard a bit of Reform Judaism I still don't know much about it (or Judaism in general).
@@Sep358 Judaism is the religion of Jesus, but Judaism does not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Jews believe there is one G-d. There are a wide variety of beliefs about God, heaven, hell, etc. Judaism is more a religion of actions than beliefs. In traditional (orthodox) Judaism, Jews are expected to try to follow the 613 commandments found in the Hebrew Bible. (It is not possible to follow them all!) Reform Judaism, which originated in Germany about 200 years ago, is the largest Jewish movement in the USA. One of the biggest differences between Reform and Orthodox Judaism (besides the egalitarianism) is that Reform Jews do not believe that you must try to follow all of the 613 commandments. They believe that some of the laws of the Hebrew Bible are not feasible, practical, or relevant to modern life. So, while some Reform Jews will follow the kosher dietary laws, many do not. While some Reform Jews will refrain from work, etc., on the sabbath, many do not. If you want to get a sense of what Reform Judaism is like, I would try watching a Friday night shabbat service of Central Synagogue on RUclips. It's absolutely beautiful, even if you don't understand Hebrew (most people don't understand it, but they have a prayer book with English translations of the prayers and songs.) If you're interested in hearing a Reform Rabbi talk about the basics of Judaism, ReformJudaism.org offers an affordable 3 hour class called Taste of Judaism. Finally, I will say that the more I learn about Judaism, the more I see Judaism's influence in Catholicism!
Leave the church or never join it in the first place.
And everyone who did join, leave too
You and Brandon Robertson should do a podcast😮. You guys could discuss what gay community should look like which would be very insightful. Wait! Are you gay??
That might be an interesting conversation! Yes, I am indeed gay
I listen to you both, and both of you are great communicators You’re both on the same side of the coin, but from two different angles. While he tries to show how gay people should not be excluded, but fully excepted and fully functioning in the body of Christ On the other hand, you seem to be saying, although the church says gay people are excepted, yet when you read the fine print , (which they hope gay people don’t read) they don’t fully except gay Christian community I truly hope that you guys can connect and discuss both your views. If so, I know a-number of people who would tune into that.
@@GayExTrad I loved your conversation on the I tried to be straight podcast , I hope they ask you back
You can be LGBT and Christian 👨❤️👨
Technically yes
You’re literally everywhere haha 😅
Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. The Way is a life of Chaste Celibacy in Imitation of Jesus Christ. The Truth is that the Sexual act is exclusively intended by God the Father for monogamous heterosexual marriage for the procreation of life to to bring about children for his Eternal Kingdom in Heaven .
The Life is mortification of ones own passions and desires and renunciation of sin for The True Pure Divine Love Of Jesus Christ, our neighbor as well as our self.
Jesus says that in order to follow him we must pick up our CROSS Daily which means redemptive suffering is essential to being an Authentic Lover of Jesus Christ and the Royal road to Eternal Life with God in Heaven. Any other path is counterfeit and a Dead end.
Fyi, I'm ex gay and finally accepted this way and LOVING IT !!! Never had more Peace before in my Life !
‘Ex gay’ isn’t a thing. No one turns from 100% gay to 100% straight cause of ‘God’
Why is it that when a straight person chooses celibacy nobody calls them an “ex-straight”, but when a gay person does it they’re an “ex-gay”? 🤔
🥗🥗🥗
I am abstinent. Ex-gays are assholes. The term was made up so that most Christians would assume that everyone who calls himself "gay" is sexually active.
I wish I could support you, But I can't. support of just $1.00 its cheap as heck until I send you a buck and then feel bad and send a buck to the 50 other channels. I did thumbs up though and I enjoyed the talk so thanks.
No worries! I appreciate the thumbs up 🙏
Its not the job of The Church to conform to you. She cannot change teachings of the Bible, though many "progressive" theologians try to make the claim that when the Bible refers to homosexuals its speaking strictly in a context of men with boys. This is eisegetical and requires one to ignore other teachings in the Old and New Testamant.
If you do not believe in Christ or the Bible im not sure what the purpose is of complaining that you do not have a space in the Church.
🚨cult alert🚨
@@GayExTrad Perhaps you should use some of that Patreon money to buy a dictionary. Because you clearly don't understand what a cult is.
Church must've know what to do with gay people: convert to Jesus and heal bad thoughts and bad sexual action and second thing church must do is condemn those who keep insisting in the homossexual sin.
might want to workshop the comment a little and use a little more punctuation
Makes me glad I joined the Anglican Church of Canada.
🎉🎉🎉
“Snake oil salesmen”😂😂😂😂
😂😂
If you get caught between the Moon and Vatican City...I know it's crazy, but it's true...when you get caught between the Moon and Vatican City, the best that you can do is fall in love?
I'm unfamiliar with that phrase - is that a common phrase?
@@GayExTrad ruclips.net/video/xWoGS5B9fvA/видео.html
I recomend for you Courage International.
Absolutely the fuck not
@@GayExTrad Why not?, is by pride?
The people who participate in courage international are miserable and a lot of them commit suicide.
"People who really love god aren't attracted to men." What is your source?
Catholic bigots
@@GayExTrad Oh. Screw them.
I meant "valid" sources
@@redgodofwar7723 Nope, there's no official catholic document with a quote quite that direct
They want them to be priests and nuns
Close - try watching the rest of the video
@@GayExTradI grew up in the Catholic Church and becoming a priest was the other option if you don't want to get married to a woman
Do you know Opus Dei ?
I am familiar
Only enough to know that it's danger to national security and the Republic.
@@frankelliott244 you are living in a movie, not real life
Come on over to the Episcopal Church with me!
It sounds like y'all having a blast over there!
@@GayExTrad
Yes, the church established for the purpose of facilitating Henry's adultery with Ann and divorce from Catherine.
They do have nice vestments though.
👀 genuinely happy committed lay celibate Catholic here. So this makes it one at least! 😄
Love it! haha - glad you've found peace and joy in the Faith - that's awesome!!
If suffering had no meaning, Christ would not have to suffer. In suffering, you can either rebel or accept it and trust Him. There is a lot of pride ;) and attempts to justify oneself in your vid, we all do it, regardless of our preferences, nihil novi... ;)
That’d be pretty cool if god didn’t have to torture himself
Religion always has issue with LGBT as they need to have people to hate which is a sin.....hate was always a sin. There is no sin in being created LGBT.
exactly
@@GayExTrad we must pray for the lost souls in the homophobic lifestyle.