I find this rather odd, as a heat pump extracts low quality heat and raises the quality, typically having a coefficient of performance around three whereas electric resistance heating has a COP of one. That means using the heatpump as the source of heat should use roughly 1/3rd the amount of power of the space heater.
Ya from an efficiency standpoint the heat pump should win so I misspoke there. The real thing I'm trying to test is pure kw usage. The space heater is simply smaller and will pull a small and consistent load. Whereas the car's system will fluctuate all the way up to 2 or 3 kw just to heat a small area. I'll be posting a follow-up very soon, apologies for the confusion as I misstated it from the beginning as a test of efficiency instead of just pure kw usage while still providing adequate heat.
@@CarsJubilee why not just use the on-board heater then? Resistive heaters are about 100% efficient. Just don't turn up the heat too high, as that will make the on-board hvac run hard at the start. After a while the heat pump will kick in and consumption drops significantly.
I'm going to post a follow up video hopefully soon. I tried heating just the driver's footwell with on board system and at fan level 1 temp 72 and it didn't raise the footwell heat at all. Fan level 3 starts raising temp very slowly but still not much. Space heater did it easily and raised temp 40 degrees with a consistent and low load. That means in true winter conditions to really get any warmth the car's system is going to have to be running non stop and pull triple the load to heat the same area.
Thank you! I have a 2023 SEL and it is winter. I appreciated seeing the energy use screen and have found that my car is using about 20% of the total energy for climate. My temperatures are a fair bit colder than yours and was wondering what the effect of cold weather is. The draw is pretty much a constant 1.2 to 1.5 kw, and it needs the cabin heat. It took a bit to find the screen but was worth the hunt.
You're welcome! 20% is not bad at all, sometimes I've seen it as high as 50% but that may be towards the front end of the trip when the car is still trying to get the cabin temp stable. I've only used the small heater for testing but I would probably use it as an emergency heat source if I ever got stuck and needed to conserve battery.
Quite creative testing. one factor is windshield defog capabilities. I tend to drive using heated seats due to short distance driving and the windshield can fog up. It happened today at 35 degrees, 4 mile urban driving. Energy is used by heating but also by dehumidification or AC compressor operation. BTW the SE model does not the cool graphics info display. They look awesome and I wish I had them. Thanks.
Heat pumps should in theory be a lot more efficient than a restive heater (space heater). Heat pumps burn energy to "move" heat from outside to inside, as long as the outside temp is higher than the evaporation point of the coolant they can take heat from outside and move it inside to increase the cabin temp, based on the temperature outside they can range from over 400% efficient (250W for 1kW of heat) down to about 100% but you need to be in very cold temps to get close to that lower bound. Restive heater burn energy to directly make heat so are capped at 100% efficiency (aka 1kW of electric for 1 kW of heat) so should almost never beat out a heat pump for heat generated per watt used.
Thanks that makes sense conceptually, heat pump is the more efficient heater. However for many of us that are driving by ourselves on long commutes, especially those with 200 mile commutes, the heat on driver only setting is still running a system that is meant to heat the entire car whereas a tiny space heater is just that and nothing more. I'm going to do a follow up video when I have some colder temps to verify real world load in cold weather. The weather went from frigid to warm right when I was putting this together.
@@CarsJubilee I expect that you can get away with running a small resistive heater+fan to keep your hands or face warm, but if you care about the cabin temp staying at 68F during a journey then I am very skeptical that it will beat out the car's AC/heatpump system for heat per watt. Heatpumps are just bi-directional AC units that have a radiator/evaporator at both ends, so they can move heat outside or inside depending on the direction of the coolant flow. I've not looked into how the Hyundai one is set up but it can have multiple in-out ports sharing a single compressor so that it can move heat from outside to battery, outside to inside, inside to battery, inside to outside, etc.
@@devlin1991 100% agree, if you are heating the whole cabin then you should absolutely just use the car's system as that is what it's there for. From what I've heard, this is supposed to be a very efficient system between the heat pump and ptc heaters. If you only need heat for the driver, it seems like this could be an extra 20 miles of range in desperate times.
What if you use the 12v heaters that plug into the cigarette lighter port? It may work for a driver only scenario and pulls from the 12v battery instead of the main battery pack. Performance should be similar to the lower wattage AC one.
That's a great point, hadn't thought of that. Just took a quick look and there don't seem to be many as many options available with the 12v but I'd be curious to test one out as that would work for anyone without V2L. The good part with V2L is you have flexibility with the size of heater, you could technically run a heater big enough to warm the car but still use less than the heat pump.
Not sure this trick works.. you might soon realize that these little heaters consume less because they heat less compared to heat pump. The whole goal of the heat pump is to reduce the use of the built-in resistive heater, comparable to your little heaters, by pulling heat from outside while cooling outside. Therefore, the true test to do is a trip of let's say 2 hours, with same outside low temp, same desired temp inside, AND measure inside temp. In one case you put car heating system on with heat pump, in the other car heating completely off and addition of separate heater. You'll soon realize that you heat and get temperature raise proportional to the kw they burn. And that it doesn't get to the desired inside temperature. Conclusion: If you want to extend range, more easily lower your desired temp of the car built-in heating system.
100% right that the space heater will provide less heat. If the goal is to heat the whole car then there's no point in using the space heater like you said. You are also right that the little space heater will definitely not provide the same level of heat as the car's system. But I'm thinking specifically where only the driver is in the car and that driver just needs a tiny bit of heat to stay warm. In that case running the car's system is using more kw than the driver actually needs, even on driver only heat mode. I'll try testing it if I turn down the temperature and see how low I have to go to get it equal in kw usage. From overall efficiency standpoint the car's system wins but it's a large system so maybe something smaller would save range for specific situations.
I bought the Honeywell small heating unit to see if would heat my Ioniq 5. This idea works very well but the small heating unit MUST be stabilized because it will tip over when making any turn. I secured it with Velcro strips to a small piece of granite (4”X4”) that was the color sample for our new kitchen. But a piece of wood or metal would also work. I set the car to fan speed 1 at 70 F and the Honeywell fist to high for a few minutes and then to low. The car was very comfortable with a coat on. Remember to unplug the Honeywell after the car will be off overnight for safety reasons.,
Oh wow that's awesome James, glad it's working for you and really good point about the tip over. How cold has it been outside when you've used the Honeywell?
Can you measure the temperatures with and without the heaters on the driver side and in the center of the cabin? This test makes no sense if the heaters provide little or no heat. Please show how fast it takes to heat up the cabin. Good video regardless. Please keep ‘me coming.
Thanks Mac, ya I'm going to try and get some more temp readings and load readings. Just have to wait for the temps to drop a little bit here to get some realistic numbers.
Most older EVs use resistive element heaters, just like a space heater. Even the RWD Ioniq5 and EV6 in the US use resistive heaters. Those heaters are even more efficient than plugging a space heater into the V2L because they run directly off the high voltage battery without needing to have have the battery voltage stepped down by the inverter like the V2L plug requires (and uses electricity to do so). A resistive element heater is 100% efficient at turning electricity to heat, in this case it is probably more like 95% because of the electricity and heat loss to convert the 750-ish volts in the battery to 120V at the V2L plug. The heat pump at 60F is probably 300% efficient and probably only reaches the 100% efficiency mark somewhere at or near freezing. The under-dash shots I’ve seen of the Ioniq5 show high voltage wiring under the dash, so I suspect there is probably a back-up resistive element heater for those occasions. Needless to say, there is a reason that most newer EVs have heat pumps…they are more efficient than resistive heaters except in the coldest of cold temperatures.
Thanks for the great explanation Kevin! Everything you are saying makes complete sense. I'm definitely not at your level of understanding regarding the heating system so I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my follow up video. Hoping to be done in the next week or so. In real usage for the specific scenario of only providing heat to the driver, I think the car's system might use more kw compared to a small space heater. Especially if I'm only trying to heat the driver's footwell for example. The car's system is going to be more efficient in terms of creating heat but for that very specific use I think it's going to pull a bigger load. Any thoughts?
@@CarsJubilee. A number of individuals in this thread have pointed out that the coefficient of performance for a heat pump exceeds that of a space heater probably of the order of 3X. As such for each watt of energy the heat pump will provide 3 watts of heat compared to 1 watt of heat for the space heater ( at best as the space heater is not 100% efficient). Using the power usage as a comparative metric is inappropriate as it is not a measure of the heat or temperature rise you get. In the extreme one could say “use a 60 watt light bulb for heat “. It will use less energy for sure but one won’t be very warm. I will go looking for your follow on video. I really enjoy your channel. Many great insights. Thanks for taking the time.
All things equal that is true. However like I mentioned in specific scenarios where the driver is the only person in the car and you don't need to heat the whole cabin, a space heater will pull less kw even if the car climate system is in driver only mode.
I would make an adjucated guess and say, that this is wrong. Do me a favor and drive around for 4 hours. The car will heat up with the heatpump and as the chosen temperature is reached, the kw usage will drop. So it is just wrong to assume the kw usage over the whole 4 hours.
@@ludwigsonline3499 unfortunately winter conditions are gone in my area. But I did manage some more small scale testing about a week ago that I think will provide enough data, just need to put the video together. At the end of the day it's all an educated guess like you said until someone can test it out. But I did see someone on here say their kona was pulling 3-4 kw on their live readout over the course of their winter drive. Not sure of exact conditions but that bodes well for a small space heater.
I haven’t used the Ioniq 5 in cold conditions but I would think that the amount of power the heating pulls will depend on how cold it is outside and how warm it is inside and how warm you want it to be. Just like the air conditioning, where the power draw varies quite strongly depending on these conditions and settings. So I would think assuming that the heat pump pulls 1.2kW no matter what can’t be quite right. Moreover, the amount of heat the heat pump produces at 1.2kW is likely very different from the amount of heat a 200W heater produces. If the heat pump draws too much for your taste but you don’t need all that heat, just switch it off when you don’t need it and switch on again when you need it. Quite easy via the menu. My two cents.
In the winter if I'm going highway speeds, the car is having to keep the heater running to combat the cold air around the car. I only tested in near freezing temperatures, the guys living up in Canada will likely be pulling more than 1.2 kW consistently just to maintain cabin temperature at highway speeds in their cold winters. The 200W heater was just an example that would only work if the driver is the only person in the car, even then as you mention it might not be enough - probably not enough in Canada. Luckily winter range is not something I have to deal with typically but I thought it was a fun experiment. And I agree, you would save energy if you just don't use the heater.
@@CarsJubilee , it's definitely an idea for quickly heating up the back of the car, if not already pre-heated, for example for a pet that wouldn't benefit from seat heating. I might actually do that on occasions.
Hey Eric, I'm envisioning this for a very specific scenario which I mentioned in the video. Hopefully buyers that are thinking about buying or already bought the Ioniq 5 figured out their range needs and charging options. But if you bought the car before winter, then you are really just guessing what your winter range is going to be. Sure there are some winter range test videos out as examples but different driving conditions (elevation change, actual exterior and interior temps) will yield completely different results so it's really an estimated guess until you make that drive yourself. Winter for me is much more mild compared to winter for our friends up in Canada. Then once winter hits, what if you can no longer hit the range you need for your daily commute if you want heat? Are there other options besides selling the car? You can't return the car because it's not meeting your expected range. So what can you do? There are a plethora of options, like turning on heated seat and heater steering wheel plus layering up and then braving the cold with the heat off. Or buying heated gear like said heated jacket etc. But there's another angle with the V2L which it seems has not been explored which is where this video is coming from. Very curious to hear what other people have been trying in these kinds of situations. I've tried layering in 30-40 degree temps and found it acceptable for me but that's city driving for short amounts of time and just for experiment sake as I don't need the range for my daily commute. But I don't think personally I'd be able to handle it in below freezing exterior temps on the freeway (higher speeds means colder cabin) for 4 hours without some heat. But I'm also not used to way below freezing temps so maybe others will chime in and say they've doing it no problem. Is this something you've had a chance to try? Would love to hear personal experiences as it really helps everyone learn together.
Adjusting the car's temperature dial and fan speed or wear several jackets might also be effective compared these v2l heaters? I would check also if best to use car's air system anyway for to get fresh air else these v2l heaters might not prevent dangerous increased drowsiness and condensation on windows and stinky air and covid transfer if anyone else inside
100% agree, no heat is the most effective method. I'm going to have to play around with temp and fan settings to get some more kw readings so that's a good point. That's true about air quality and a good point, would probably need to at least open the windows or circulate cabin air every once in awhile. Definitely thinking this is only for a situation where the driver is by himself going on a long drive :)
I guess if you wanted to take this even more extreme, how about adding some sort of plastic screening around the front seats or driver (something like I have seen in cabs for COVID) to reduce the area being heated? Of course, I would never do this, but it might be interesting as another experiment. I think I'd just rather live with the range loss and hit a closer charging station.
Hah ya that's an interesting thought about trying to retain the heat around them for someone trying to squeeze out that extra mile but still wanting heat. Agreed, not really something that I see myself doing or needing to do. But in the off chance you live somewhere with limited charging or even no charging options, it's good to know you may have some options with the V2L vs no heat in the cabin for the winter.
You realize that cars have not always had heaters, and early cars could be very cold and drafty. Folks dressed for the weather and used lap blankets, neither of which would draw down your battery.
Yes everyone can drive without heat if they would like and I'm sure many including myself have done that. Plus seat heater and heated wheel don't pull enough load to make a difference typically so those would be on. This is just a demonstration that there's something usable that would help conserve range for a specific scenario that many have thought about (heat vs range in the winter). I've driven quite a bit without the heat on with insulated pants/shirt/heavy jacket/warm socks/lined hat etc and that was only 30 degree temps. At even colder temps, if I were in this situation I'd probably want some heat. It seems like the real question is the safety aspect and whether there is a safer option out there that can make use of the V2L outlet while using lower wattage than the car's climate system.
I would agree, winter range even without considering heat could be a 30% range loss just due to the batteries. Then once you turn on the car's heat that incurs another range loss. That's really why I even thought to experiment. If someone buys the ioniq 5 with epa rated 256 mile range but then starts realizing that in winter they are under 200 miles of range, now they aren't sure it's enough for their daily commute by themselves. Then they have to worry about the heat, so what if there was a way to save some range?
Sorry but my Ioniq 5 still gets 3.5 miles per Kw because I set cruise control speed at 63 mph. Others drive at 75 mph with changing speeds due to traffic and that uses a lot of energy. Thanks
Hey Peter, sorry if there was information that was provided in an unclear manner regarding kWh and kW as it slipped my mind. For anyone confused about the conversion here it is, hopefully that will help clear up any thing I may have mislabeled or misspoken about: The energy E in kilowatt-hours (kWh) is equal to the power P in kilowatts (kW), times the time period t in hours (h).
@@CarsJubilee being M sc EE I just hate the misconception of power (W) and energy (kWh) (btw the battery has 77,4 kWh) PS. the prefix kilo (1000) is k (not K)
Mm maybe if you have a non limited trim which doesn't have V2L inside the car? Otherwise limited trim V2L inside the car works great even with the car moving.
Hey Michael, some people are getting stuck on my misswording which is my mistake. I'm not arguing that the space heater is more efficient, as that's not true. What I'm trying to show is that a space heater will use less kw than the car's climate system (and actually do a better job) to heat a small area even if using driver only heat mode. I look forward to proving that point further in my follow up as that's clearly been the case in my additional testing since this video.
I don't want to discourage you from making videos. But using Home heaters in a moving car would be reckless. They are not even "recommended" be left in a house unattended. If there is one that is designed for a car then maybe but please don't try using home heaters in a vehicle. At least you mentioned having the trip switch but......
Thanks for the feedback Omar. Just playing devil's advocate here, any specific reason why you wouldn't use it in the car? The specific scenario I see it being used is by a single driver on his own with the space heater somewhere on the floor next to him, maybe the passenger footwell. In this scenario the heater is not being left unattended. The only other thing I can think of is the manuals usually state to maintain a clear area around the space heater. Anything else that might be a safety issue?
@@CarsJubilee In general it is the risk of fire. Even if you are using it for the driver only something can shift in the vehicle that can get to the heater space and ignite (lint, paper, etc.). In general in a home you don't even want it on carpet for the same reason. Even if 99% of the time nothing will happen, if it happens that 1% while you are driving 50-60 miles per hour you will not be able to react to stop the flames and can end up hurting yourself or others. After long usage the unit could still be so hot that if somehow it flips over (for example if you leave it parked where someone could give your car a love tap) then it is another possibility of something catching fire. In general, using an item for what it is not intended (using a knife as a screwdriver, using a chair as a ladder, etc.) is not recommended. I won't stand on a moral high horse because of course I have done things like this myself, but some things are better off just not done. If you want to take the risk yourself its your call, but better off to not recommend it to others.
@@omarastacio3939 completely understand where you are coming from and like you said everyone has a different threshold or tolerance for what they seem risky. I can definitely understand the knock over risk and risk of fire so thanks for bringing those up. I was thinking the Honeywell which advertises itself as cool to the touch housing would help alleviate that as there is supposedly no exterior surface that would get that hot. Clearly still some risk there so appreciate the feedback.
As far as I can tell, you’ve proved that a small space heater consumes less electricity than a medium space heater, which consumes less than a large space heater. I think we already knew that. The issue is: how much energy is required to heat the cabin given a constant outside temperature, and is a space heater less or more efficient than car’s heat pump. You haven’t addressed that. You also haven’t considered that all of these heat sources will cycle on and off once the cabin reaches your desired temperature. If a space heater draws half the power but operates for twice the time, you’ve gained nothing.
@@troubadour52 Sorry just saw this in the under review section of comments. I agree my testing here didn't provide enough data so that's something I'm working on, just trying to get cooperative weather conditions when I'm free to film. Based on what I've seen, again still need to provide the footage to prove it, the car is using around 2 kw to get driver only temp even close to 70F cabin temp at driver only mode in 50 degree exterior temps. Yes the car will eventually cycle on and off once it reaches those temps but based on feel, it doesn't feel like its reaching 70F cabin temp at driver only mode whereas the space heater is pulling a consistent and smaller load and surpassing the 70F mark wherever it's pointed, and can also be toggled off once I feel warm enough. I should have waited and provided a more complete video with more footage but it's just been really difficult to film since it's all weather dependent. Please check back in when I post the update =) Will try to convince you more there haha.
Hahah definitely a no go. I don't know if I'm ever going to get to finish the follow-up video but at the very least I think it shows that having V2L has potential in a moving and stationary position for so many different applications.
haha ya I was thinking that just the other day about the battery, though if winter mode is enabled the car will sort it out itself to keep the battery warm enough from what I understand? No calls from the fire dept plus not something I've actually used. This was a little experiment that kind of surprised me in it's effectiveness. I have about half footage for a follow up that really highlights how the space heater can be really effective at putting out low volume hot air vs the car's system but winter is gone and I can't really test properly anymore so it may just end up being an open ended experiment. But it does open up ideas if you are stationary and camping. Maybe space heater or heated blanket instead of running the heat all night, we'll see if myself or others put that to any use.
@@CarsJubilee to some degree (pun intended). Seems any EVs with heat pumps, unlike resistive heaters, have problems bellow -10c. Canadian specs have the resistive heaters standard so it may be less of a problem but US & Canada both dont yet have the new Euro software that preconditions the battery while approaching a charge station on your planned route. It's been mentioned that switching to sport more some 20kms from your charge point will help. The rationale behind this is that Sports mode apparently heats up the battery to aid in power delivery. I wont be getting my Ioniq 5 before July so I can't try this yet.
Ya truth be told I don't know enough about this heating system, still so much to learn. Yes I'm definitely looking forward to the battery preconditioning update and seeing how that helps with charging speeds. Are in Canada? You must be one of the lucky ones then that got their order in early, I heard only 1000 Ioniq 5s imported total for 2023 and the remaining orders were cancelled or being shifted to 2024 :(
@@CarsJubilee You dont know how lucky I got for my order. I ordered January 15th and they closed orderings on the 18th! My last email delays fabrication on month to June so I dont expect to see it before July. It's a long wait. At least I have a Bolt EV to drive until then. Not stuck with those insane gas price.
Ya that's the point I was trying to make. If you are driving by yourself, the heat pump (even in driver's only mode) is more than you need. It's a system made to heat an entire car so it pulls more load. Whereas if you only need a little bit of heat, a small space heater would provide that easily. Yes the heat pump is more efficient by design but it might be using more energy because it's a bigger system. Which is great for when you need to heat the entire car but slightly wasteful if you just need a little driver heat.
Interesting experiment, indeed. The Ioniq 5 seems to have very intricate play with the heating circuits and coolant loops, there's more than just cabin heating going on: ruclips.net/video/qRdq1y9RQhY/видео.html
Ya right on, it's way more complex than I can even pretend to understand. That's why I'm just looking at what the car is telling me. If climate system heat is on, how many kw is it pulling? I think I need to pull some more accurate winter numbers and with different heat settings to really show if a small low watt heat source would really save range.
You can’t just do basic calculation like that, what about humidity in the car? You need fresh air that need to be heated, heat pump did not run at full speed all the time, it is a variable speed compressor, there is a lot of variable that you did not consider.
I agree it's not a perfect test but that's the beauty of the plug in space heater. You know EXACTLY how much you are going to use. Whereas with the car built in HVAC, I still believe it will use more but the unknown is exactly how much more because it is variable. And yes you have to account for humidity if it becomes an issue etc. It depends on the driver's situation.
I think to mesure real value you have tou understand the first thing to heat to save énergie is the battery it self. The battery will most efficiente if it stay over 10 c . Here juste a concept not a science value. Sorry about my pour anglish Thank trying sharing idea
I find this rather odd, as a heat pump extracts low quality heat and raises the quality, typically having a coefficient of performance around three whereas electric resistance heating has a COP of one. That means using the heatpump as the source of heat should use roughly 1/3rd the amount of power of the space heater.
Ya from an efficiency standpoint the heat pump should win so I misspoke there. The real thing I'm trying to test is pure kw usage. The space heater is simply smaller and will pull a small and consistent load. Whereas the car's system will fluctuate all the way up to 2 or 3 kw just to heat a small area. I'll be posting a follow-up very soon, apologies for the confusion as I misstated it from the beginning as a test of efficiency instead of just pure kw usage while still providing adequate heat.
Turn heating all the way down and use the seat heater, and steering wheel heater if needed. Saves even more power.
Ya 100% agree, if it's not brutally cold then totally doable that way. Just exploring options if that weren't the case.
@@CarsJubilee why not just use the on-board heater then? Resistive heaters are about 100% efficient. Just don't turn up the heat too high, as that will make the on-board hvac run hard at the start. After a while the heat pump will kick in and consumption drops significantly.
I'm going to post a follow up video hopefully soon. I tried heating just the driver's footwell with on board system and at fan level 1 temp 72 and it didn't raise the footwell heat at all. Fan level 3 starts raising temp very slowly but still not much. Space heater did it easily and raised temp 40 degrees with a consistent and low load. That means in true winter conditions to really get any warmth the car's system is going to have to be running non stop and pull triple the load to heat the same area.
@@CarsJubilee yes, I see where this might work in very cold conditions and especially for short trips.
Thank you! I have a 2023 SEL and it is winter. I appreciated seeing the energy use screen and have found that my car is using about 20% of the total energy for climate. My temperatures are a fair bit colder than yours and was wondering what the effect of cold weather is. The draw is pretty much a constant 1.2 to 1.5 kw, and it needs the cabin heat. It took a bit to find the screen but was worth the hunt.
You're welcome! 20% is not bad at all, sometimes I've seen it as high as 50% but that may be towards the front end of the trip when the car is still trying to get the cabin temp stable.
I've only used the small heater for testing but I would probably use it as an emergency heat source if I ever got stuck and needed to conserve battery.
Quite creative testing. one factor is windshield defog capabilities. I tend to drive using heated seats due to short distance driving and the windshield can fog up. It happened today at 35 degrees, 4 mile urban driving. Energy is used by heating but also by dehumidification or AC compressor operation. BTW the SE model does not the cool graphics info display. They look awesome and I wish I had them. Thanks.
Heat pumps should in theory be a lot more efficient than a restive heater (space heater). Heat pumps burn energy to "move" heat from outside to inside, as long as the outside temp is higher than the evaporation point of the coolant they can take heat from outside and move it inside to increase the cabin temp, based on the temperature outside they can range from over 400% efficient (250W for 1kW of heat) down to about 100% but you need to be in very cold temps to get close to that lower bound. Restive heater burn energy to directly make heat so are capped at 100% efficiency (aka 1kW of electric for 1 kW of heat) so should almost never beat out a heat pump for heat generated per watt used.
Thanks that makes sense conceptually, heat pump is the more efficient heater. However for many of us that are driving by ourselves on long commutes, especially those with 200 mile commutes, the heat on driver only setting is still running a system that is meant to heat the entire car whereas a tiny space heater is just that and nothing more.
I'm going to do a follow up video when I have some colder temps to verify real world load in cold weather. The weather went from frigid to warm right when I was putting this together.
@@CarsJubilee I expect that you can get away with running a small resistive heater+fan to keep your hands or face warm, but if you care about the cabin temp staying at 68F during a journey then I am very skeptical that it will beat out the car's AC/heatpump system for heat per watt. Heatpumps are just bi-directional AC units that have a radiator/evaporator at both ends, so they can move heat outside or inside depending on the direction of the coolant flow. I've not looked into how the Hyundai one is set up but it can have multiple in-out ports sharing a single compressor so that it can move heat from outside to battery, outside to inside, inside to battery, inside to outside, etc.
@@devlin1991 100% agree, if you are heating the whole cabin then you should absolutely just use the car's system as that is what it's there for. From what I've heard, this is supposed to be a very efficient system between the heat pump and ptc heaters. If you only need heat for the driver, it seems like this could be an extra 20 miles of range in desperate times.
What if you use the 12v heaters that plug into the cigarette lighter port? It may work for a driver only scenario and pulls from the 12v battery instead of the main battery pack. Performance should be similar to the lower wattage AC one.
That's a great point, hadn't thought of that. Just took a quick look and there don't seem to be many as many options available with the 12v but I'd be curious to test one out as that would work for anyone without V2L.
The good part with V2L is you have flexibility with the size of heater, you could technically run a heater big enough to warm the car but still use less than the heat pump.
Not sure this trick works.. you might soon realize that these little heaters consume less because they heat less compared to heat pump. The whole goal of the heat pump is to reduce the use of the built-in resistive heater, comparable to your little heaters, by pulling heat from outside while cooling outside. Therefore, the true test to do is a trip of let's say 2 hours, with same outside low temp, same desired temp inside, AND measure inside temp. In one case you put car heating system on with heat pump, in the other car heating completely off and addition of separate heater. You'll soon realize that you heat and get temperature raise proportional to the kw they burn. And that it doesn't get to the desired inside temperature. Conclusion: If you want to extend range, more easily lower your desired temp of the car built-in heating system.
100% right that the space heater will provide less heat. If the goal is to heat the whole car then there's no point in using the space heater like you said.
You are also right that the little space heater will definitely not provide the same level of heat as the car's system. But I'm thinking specifically where only the driver is in the car and that driver just needs a tiny bit of heat to stay warm. In that case running the car's system is using more kw than the driver actually needs, even on driver only heat mode. I'll try testing it if I turn down the temperature and see how low I have to go to get it equal in kw usage.
From overall efficiency standpoint the car's system wins but it's a large system so maybe something smaller would save range for specific situations.
My car doesnt have an internal VTL. However it does have a 12v outlet in the boot so you gave me the idea of using a 12v heater.
Ahhh yes that would work!
I bought the Honeywell small heating unit to see if would heat my Ioniq 5. This idea works very well but the small heating unit MUST be stabilized because it will tip over when making any turn. I secured it with Velcro strips to a small piece of granite (4”X4”) that was the color sample for our new kitchen. But a piece of wood or metal would also work. I set the car to fan speed 1 at 70 F and the Honeywell fist to high for a few minutes and then to low. The car was very comfortable with a coat on. Remember to unplug the Honeywell after the car will be off overnight for safety reasons.,
Oh wow that's awesome James, glad it's working for you and really good point about the tip over.
How cold has it been outside when you've used the Honeywell?
Battery loss is not in kW, but in kWh. This is very essential to use right units in such a video.
Can you measure the temperatures with and without the heaters on the driver side and in the center of the cabin? This test makes no sense if the heaters provide little or no heat. Please show how fast it takes to heat up the cabin. Good video regardless. Please keep ‘me coming.
Thanks Mac, ya I'm going to try and get some more temp readings and load readings. Just have to wait for the temps to drop a little bit here to get some realistic numbers.
Most older EVs use resistive element heaters, just like a space heater. Even the RWD Ioniq5 and EV6 in the US use resistive heaters. Those heaters are even more efficient than plugging a space heater into the V2L because they run directly off the high voltage battery without needing to have have the battery voltage stepped down by the inverter like the V2L plug requires (and uses electricity to do so). A resistive element heater is 100% efficient at turning electricity to heat, in this case it is probably more like 95% because of the electricity and heat loss to convert the 750-ish volts in the battery to 120V at the V2L plug. The heat pump at 60F is probably 300% efficient and probably only reaches the 100% efficiency mark somewhere at or near freezing. The under-dash shots I’ve seen of the Ioniq5 show high voltage wiring under the dash, so I suspect there is probably a back-up resistive element heater for those occasions.
Needless to say, there is a reason that most newer EVs have heat pumps…they are more efficient than resistive heaters except in the coldest of cold temperatures.
Thanks for the great explanation Kevin! Everything you are saying makes complete sense. I'm definitely not at your level of understanding regarding the heating system so I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my follow up video. Hoping to be done in the next week or so.
In real usage for the specific scenario of only providing heat to the driver, I think the car's system might use more kw compared to a small space heater. Especially if I'm only trying to heat the driver's footwell for example. The car's system is going to be more efficient in terms of creating heat but for that very specific use I think it's going to pull a bigger load. Any thoughts?
@@CarsJubilee. A number of individuals in this thread have pointed out that the coefficient of performance for a heat pump exceeds that of a space heater probably of the order of 3X. As such for each watt of energy the heat pump will provide 3 watts of heat compared to 1 watt of heat for the space heater ( at best as the space heater is not 100% efficient). Using the power usage as a comparative metric is inappropriate as it is not a measure of the heat or temperature rise you get. In the extreme one could say “use a 60 watt light bulb for heat “. It will use less energy for sure but one won’t be very warm. I will go looking for your follow on video. I really enjoy your channel. Many great insights. Thanks for taking the time.
A resistance heater will use more energy, than a heat pump. That is why the are used.
All things equal that is true. However like I mentioned in specific scenarios where the driver is the only person in the car and you don't need to heat the whole cabin, a space heater will pull less kw even if the car climate system is in driver only mode.
I would make an adjucated guess and say, that this is wrong. Do me a favor and drive around for 4 hours. The car will heat up with the heatpump and as the chosen temperature is reached, the kw usage will drop. So it is just wrong to assume the kw usage over the whole 4 hours.
@@ludwigsonline3499 unfortunately winter conditions are gone in my area. But I did manage some more small scale testing about a week ago that I think will provide enough data, just need to put the video together. At the end of the day it's all an educated guess like you said until someone can test it out. But I did see someone on here say their kona was pulling 3-4 kw on their live readout over the course of their winter drive. Not sure of exact conditions but that bodes well for a small space heater.
I haven’t used the Ioniq 5 in cold conditions but I would think that the amount of power the heating pulls will depend on how cold it is outside and how warm it is inside and how warm you want it to be. Just like the air conditioning, where the power draw varies quite strongly depending on these conditions and settings. So I would think assuming that the heat pump pulls 1.2kW no matter what can’t be quite right. Moreover, the amount of heat the heat pump produces at 1.2kW is likely very different from the amount of heat a 200W heater produces. If the heat pump draws too much for your taste but you don’t need all that heat, just switch it off when you don’t need it and switch on again when you need it. Quite easy via the menu. My two cents.
In the winter if I'm going highway speeds, the car is having to keep the heater running to combat the cold air around the car. I only tested in near freezing temperatures, the guys living up in Canada will likely be pulling more than 1.2 kW consistently just to maintain cabin temperature at highway speeds in their cold winters.
The 200W heater was just an example that would only work if the driver is the only person in the car, even then as you mention it might not be enough - probably not enough in Canada.
Luckily winter range is not something I have to deal with typically but I thought it was a fun experiment. And I agree, you would save energy if you just don't use the heater.
@@CarsJubilee , it's definitely an idea for quickly heating up the back of the car, if not already pre-heated, for example for a pet that wouldn't benefit from seat heating. I might actually do that on occasions.
This is not a hack, if you are planning to skimp on comfort for range on a $50k+ car then use a heater jacket instead.
Hey Eric, I'm envisioning this for a very specific scenario which I mentioned in the video. Hopefully buyers that are thinking about buying or already bought the Ioniq 5 figured out their range needs and charging options. But if you bought the car before winter, then you are really just guessing what your winter range is going to be. Sure there are some winter range test videos out as examples but different driving conditions (elevation change, actual exterior and interior temps) will yield completely different results so it's really an estimated guess until you make that drive yourself. Winter for me is much more mild compared to winter for our friends up in Canada. Then once winter hits, what if you can no longer hit the range you need for your daily commute if you want heat? Are there other options besides selling the car? You can't return the car because it's not meeting your expected range. So what can you do?
There are a plethora of options, like turning on heated seat and heater steering wheel plus layering up and then braving the cold with the heat off. Or buying heated gear like said heated jacket etc. But there's another angle with the V2L which it seems has not been explored which is where this video is coming from. Very curious to hear what other people have been trying in these kinds of situations.
I've tried layering in 30-40 degree temps and found it acceptable for me but that's city driving for short amounts of time and just for experiment sake as I don't need the range for my daily commute. But I don't think personally I'd be able to handle it in below freezing exterior temps on the freeway (higher speeds means colder cabin) for 4 hours without some heat. But I'm also not used to way below freezing temps so maybe others will chime in and say they've doing it no problem. Is this something you've had a chance to try? Would love to hear personal experiences as it really helps everyone learn together.
Interesting scenario, thanks for checking these heaters and it’s a good idea.
Thanks Chris appreciate the feedback!
Adjusting the car's temperature dial and fan speed or wear several jackets might also be effective compared these v2l heaters? I would check also if best to use car's air system anyway for to get fresh air else these v2l heaters might not prevent dangerous increased drowsiness and condensation on windows and stinky air and covid transfer if anyone else inside
100% agree, no heat is the most effective method. I'm going to have to play around with temp and fan settings to get some more kw readings so that's a good point.
That's true about air quality and a good point, would probably need to at least open the windows or circulate cabin air every once in awhile. Definitely thinking this is only for a situation where the driver is by himself going on a long drive :)
I guess if you wanted to take this even more extreme, how about adding some sort of plastic screening around the front seats or driver (something like I have seen in cabs for COVID) to reduce the area being heated? Of course, I would never do this, but it might be interesting as another experiment. I think I'd just rather live with the range loss and hit a closer charging station.
Hah ya that's an interesting thought about trying to retain the heat around them for someone trying to squeeze out that extra mile but still wanting heat. Agreed, not really something that I see myself doing or needing to do. But in the off chance you live somewhere with limited charging or even no charging options, it's good to know you may have some options with the V2L vs no heat in the cabin for the winter.
You realize that cars have not always had heaters, and early cars could be very cold and drafty. Folks dressed for the weather and used lap blankets, neither of which would draw down your battery.
Yes everyone can drive without heat if they would like and I'm sure many including myself have done that. Plus seat heater and heated wheel don't pull enough load to make a difference typically so those would be on. This is just a demonstration that there's something usable that would help conserve range for a specific scenario that many have thought about (heat vs range in the winter). I've driven quite a bit without the heat on with insulated pants/shirt/heavy jacket/warm socks/lined hat etc and that was only 30 degree temps. At even colder temps, if I were in this situation I'd probably want some heat. It seems like the real question is the safety aspect and whether there is a safer option out there that can make use of the V2L outlet while using lower wattage than the car's climate system.
From what I've seen of other trip reports, in true cold weather the ioniq gets around 2.1 m/kw rather than the 3.3
I would agree, winter range even without considering heat could be a 30% range loss just due to the batteries. Then once you turn on the car's heat that incurs another range loss.
That's really why I even thought to experiment. If someone buys the ioniq 5 with epa rated 256 mile range but then starts realizing that in winter they are under 200 miles of range, now they aren't sure it's enough for their daily commute by themselves. Then they have to worry about the heat, so what if there was a way to save some range?
Sorry but my Ioniq 5 still gets 3.5 miles per Kw because I set cruise control speed at 63 mph. Others drive at 75 mph with changing speeds due to traffic and that uses a lot of energy. Thanks
Please be clear on units kW and kWh (power v. energy)
Hey Peter, sorry if there was information that was provided in an unclear manner regarding kWh and kW as it slipped my mind.
For anyone confused about the conversion here it is, hopefully that will help clear up any thing I may have mislabeled or misspoken about:
The energy E in kilowatt-hours (kWh) is equal to the power P in kilowatts (kW), times the time period t in hours (h).
@@CarsJubilee being M sc EE I just hate the misconception of power (W) and energy (kWh) (btw the battery has 77,4 kWh)
PS. the prefix kilo (1000) is k (not K)
Ahh makes sense now, apologies! Hopefully my experiment wasn't too shabby and still made sense even taking into account the errors.
I thought you couldn’t be in drive with the v2l working.
Mm maybe if you have a non limited trim which doesn't have V2L inside the car?
Otherwise limited trim V2L inside the car works great even with the car moving.
Please look up how a heat pump works compared to resistance heater. This video is misinformed.
Hey Michael, some people are getting stuck on my misswording which is my mistake. I'm not arguing that the space heater is more efficient, as that's not true. What I'm trying to show is that a space heater will use less kw than the car's climate system (and actually do a better job) to heat a small area even if using driver only heat mode. I look forward to proving that point further in my follow up as that's clearly been the case in my additional testing since this video.
I don't want to discourage you from making videos. But using Home heaters in a moving car would be reckless. They are not even "recommended" be left in a house unattended. If there is one that is designed for a car then maybe but please don't try using home heaters in a vehicle. At least you mentioned having the trip switch but......
Thanks for the feedback Omar. Just playing devil's advocate here, any specific reason why you wouldn't use it in the car? The specific scenario I see it being used is by a single driver on his own with the space heater somewhere on the floor next to him, maybe the passenger footwell. In this scenario the heater is not being left unattended. The only other thing I can think of is the manuals usually state to maintain a clear area around the space heater. Anything else that might be a safety issue?
@@CarsJubilee In general it is the risk of fire. Even if you are using it for the driver only something can shift in the vehicle that can get to the heater space and ignite (lint, paper, etc.). In general in a home you don't even want it on carpet for the same reason. Even if 99% of the time nothing will happen, if it happens that 1% while you are driving 50-60 miles per hour you will not be able to react to stop the flames and can end up hurting yourself or others. After long usage the unit could still be so hot that if somehow it flips over (for example if you leave it parked where someone could give your car a love tap) then it is another possibility of something catching fire. In general, using an item for what it is not intended (using a knife as a screwdriver, using a chair as a ladder, etc.) is not recommended. I won't stand on a moral high horse because of course I have done things like this myself, but some things are better off just not done. If you want to take the risk yourself its your call, but better off to not recommend it to others.
@@omarastacio3939 completely understand where you are coming from and like you said everyone has a different threshold or tolerance for what they seem risky. I can definitely understand the knock over risk and risk of fire so thanks for bringing those up. I was thinking the Honeywell which advertises itself as cool to the touch housing would help alleviate that as there is supposedly no exterior surface that would get that hot. Clearly still some risk there so appreciate the feedback.
As far as I can tell, you’ve proved that a small space heater consumes less electricity than a medium space heater, which consumes less than a large space heater. I think we already knew that. The issue is: how much energy is required to heat the cabin given a constant outside temperature, and is a space heater less or more efficient than car’s heat pump. You haven’t addressed that. You also haven’t considered that all of these heat sources will cycle on and off once the cabin reaches your desired temperature. If a space heater draws half the power but operates for twice the time, you’ve gained nothing.
@@troubadour52 Sorry just saw this in the under review section of comments. I agree my testing here didn't provide enough data so that's something I'm working on, just trying to get cooperative weather conditions when I'm free to film.
Based on what I've seen, again still need to provide the footage to prove it, the car is using around 2 kw to get driver only temp even close to 70F cabin temp at driver only mode in 50 degree exterior temps. Yes the car will eventually cycle on and off once it reaches those temps but based on feel, it doesn't feel like its reaching 70F cabin temp at driver only mode whereas the space heater is pulling a consistent and smaller load and surpassing the 70F mark wherever it's pointed, and can also be toggled off once I feel warm enough.
I should have waited and provided a more complete video with more footage but it's just been really difficult to film since it's all weather dependent. Please check back in when I post the update =) Will try to convince you more there haha.
My portable dyson heater pulls 1500 watt. It will be a terrible idea to use this while driving 🤣
Hahah definitely a no go. I don't know if I'm ever going to get to finish the follow-up video but at the very least I think it shows that having V2L has potential in a moving and stationary position for so many different applications.
Except you're not heating the battery doing this.
Did the fire department call yet?
haha ya I was thinking that just the other day about the battery, though if winter mode is enabled the car will sort it out itself to keep the battery warm enough from what I understand?
No calls from the fire dept plus not something I've actually used. This was a little experiment that kind of surprised me in it's effectiveness. I have about half footage for a follow up that really highlights how the space heater can be really effective at putting out low volume hot air vs the car's system but winter is gone and I can't really test properly anymore so it may just end up being an open ended experiment. But it does open up ideas if you are stationary and camping. Maybe space heater or heated blanket instead of running the heat all night, we'll see if myself or others put that to any use.
@@CarsJubilee to some degree (pun intended). Seems any EVs with heat pumps, unlike resistive heaters, have problems bellow -10c. Canadian specs have the resistive heaters standard so it may be less of a problem but US & Canada both dont yet have the new Euro software that preconditions the battery while approaching a charge station on your planned route.
It's been mentioned that switching to sport more some 20kms from your charge point will help. The rationale behind this is that Sports mode apparently heats up the battery to aid in power delivery.
I wont be getting my Ioniq 5 before July so I can't try this yet.
Ya truth be told I don't know enough about this heating system, still so much to learn. Yes I'm definitely looking forward to the battery preconditioning update and seeing how that helps with charging speeds.
Are in Canada? You must be one of the lucky ones then that got their order in early, I heard only 1000 Ioniq 5s imported total for 2023 and the remaining orders were cancelled or being shifted to 2024 :(
@@CarsJubilee You dont know how lucky I got for my order. I ordered January 15th and they closed orderings on the 18th!
My last email delays fabrication on month to June so I dont expect to see it before July. It's a long wait.
At least I have a Bolt EV to drive until then. Not stuck with those insane gas price.
The heat pump will be much more efficient. It's probably putting out a lot more heat than those space heaters.
Ya that's the point I was trying to make. If you are driving by yourself, the heat pump (even in driver's only mode) is more than you need. It's a system made to heat an entire car so it pulls more load. Whereas if you only need a little bit of heat, a small space heater would provide that easily.
Yes the heat pump is more efficient by design but it might be using more energy because it's a bigger system. Which is great for when you need to heat the entire car but slightly wasteful if you just need a little driver heat.
Interesting experiment, indeed. The Ioniq 5 seems to have very intricate play with the heating circuits and coolant loops, there's more than just cabin heating going on: ruclips.net/video/qRdq1y9RQhY/видео.html
Ya right on, it's way more complex than I can even pretend to understand. That's why I'm just looking at what the car is telling me. If climate system heat is on, how many kw is it pulling? I think I need to pull some more accurate winter numbers and with different heat settings to really show if a small low watt heat source would really save range.
You can’t just do basic calculation like that, what about humidity in the car? You need fresh air that need to be heated, heat pump did not run at full speed all the time, it is a variable speed compressor, there is a lot of variable that you did not consider.
I agree it's not a perfect test but that's the beauty of the plug in space heater. You know EXACTLY how much you are going to use. Whereas with the car built in HVAC, I still believe it will use more but the unknown is exactly how much more because it is variable.
And yes you have to account for humidity if it becomes an issue etc. It depends on the driver's situation.
I think to mesure real value you have tou understand the first thing to heat to save énergie is the battery it self.
The battery will most efficiente if it stay over 10 c .
Here juste a concept not a science value.
Sorry about my pour anglish
Thank trying sharing idea
Thank you for sharing and that's an excellent point about the battery temperature! I definitely had not thought about that.