And to add to that she uses her voice very nicely, it’s so refreshing hear a young lady that doesn’t sound like a creaking ship deck. I don’t know what has happened to voices in the last 20 years or so. They all try to groan like granny would have done in her 90s She obviously has a lot of understanding of her trade. It great to see.
The kids are trying, but they have a long way to go. I miss Sandy. His take on this abortion would be the polar opposite of this "glowing" review. These two have got to learn to be more discerning.
Very impressed with the host's presentation and professionalism. I did my mechanical engineering degree in the late '70s and few in my class would have been able to speak as coherently as these two, nevermind fully understand and explain the technologies. I wish I could be working in these exciting times as this interests me more than the IC and even steam engine technologies taught in my time.
On Ioniq 6, EV6 and the Genesis GV60 Hyundiai/Kia did change to an single coolant loop (only one reservoir). The theory is that the Ioniq 5 (as the first E-GMP vehicle) was initally planned using oil cooling for the motors and therefore the two coolant loops. Only late in the development they moved to water based cooling when it was too late to change a lot of stuff. This was then be done on the EV6 which availability was 6 month later.
The blue coolant is also non-conductive I believe which would promote more resiliency in a chain reaction event. Also I thought newer I5's have a single loop, no?
Thanks for explaining that. I have an EV6 and could not understand why I only had one cooling loop if all EGMP cars were essentially the same under the skin
Nice to see Alex again! From "intern" to "co-op"? Hope that's a promotion. Thank you both for another engaging and informative presentation. Such a pleasure to be guided through the design of these vehicles and their systems. It's a view we mere mortals would not otherwise get. Thank ye kindly! ^_^
I'd love to see more about the ICCU since that component seems to be failing on a lot of vehicles at around the 1 year mark for unknown reasons. If you go on the Ioniq 5 forums it's a well documented phenomenon but no one seems to really know why it fails almost always at the 1 year, 20,000 km mark.
Great to see a new face on the channel. Alex did a great job explaining the AC system. It would be great to get a table of each car's cooling/heating system and rank them on numerous factors like packaging, cost, efficiency, weight, etc.
Especialy if (when!) governments (will) makes repairability mandatory to prevent waste. (I know this is not high on the principle list of (US) engineers....)
On the Kona, they changed from a conductive to a (rather expensive) non-conductive coolant at a fairly early stage - maybe they were concerned about the effect of leakage within the battery, and kept with it for the 800V pack here.
On the Kona they had the unknown cause for the battery fires and changed due to that. After finding out it was a defective manufacturing process from their battery supplier they didn’t change any of their other “fix processes” back. The same reason the cars slow the charging to very slow around 80%, for a minute, when DC charging.
@@BatterVswithAntonio they had a recall on Ioniq and Kona (at least here in Europe) to replace the coolant with a different type one. The level on the reservoir was dropping, and then signaling an alert but without any leaks. It tends to be attributed to the coolant reacting with the cooling plates of the battery, is this what you are talking about? BTW can't wait to see your video about the battery pack.
@@MatteoBurroni it forms crystals 😅 but it turned to solid crystal outside of vehicle. so i don't thing the recall to flush the old coolant and change it for a new one is because of old low conductive coolant reacts with flux, it's just the coolant crystalazing.
Alex is very articulate - nice video! Pleased to see these Ioniq 5 teardown videos starting to come out. Thanks for taking the time to do such a thorough overview.
Both of you did a very nice job on both the pros and the cons. Really like the way she gave close-ups of showing how they actual bypass valve worked. And the explaining of how both systems work together if needed.
Excellent breakdown from both of you and it’s a reflection of the level of excellence from Munro associates. Loved the comparisons amongst the other EVs cooling systems and capabilities.
5:40: A lot of cars with heat pumps for space heating will disable battery cooling when you heat the cabin. By having a PTC inside the cabin, you can heat the cabin and cool the battery at the same time.. In my opinion, a smart design for cold climates.
The reason to include a PTC heater and put a resistive heater at the battery outlet is to reduce the temperature delta that the heat pump has to deal with. Heat pumps don't like big deltas.
Sorry but they have misunderstood the system. See my comment above. The PTC heater does not heat the cabin and it takes some time for the heat pump to heat the cabin.
@@hoyacht 20 Celsius to -20 or even lower, so at least 40K (differences are to be expressed in K). If you spec a heat pump for say, 30K and add a resistive heater, you save cost and weight on the heat pump and only lose range during the really cold edge cases.
@@godfreja No doubt the heatpump is fast. I'm happy too. But the heat does not come from the PTC heater. It's easy to confirm this with an OBD scanner which shows that the PTC heater pulls 4-5kW when heating the battery silently while the heatpump pulls at max 2kW initially when not so silently heating the cabin. There is no doubt that the PTC heater does not come on to heat the cabin - it cannot.
The inclusion of the cabin PTC in my experience with a Kona assists the heat pump while the latter is preparing itself for first use. From ambient 7°C and under when heat is first switched the PTC lights up for about 2 minutes drawing around 3.5 kW. The heat pump takes over and consumption drops to 0.6-1.0 kW. As for the inclusion of both condenser and evaporator in the cabin I was unsure if Alex noted that it also allows for control of humidity using reheat without involving the PTC. I'm glad our awesome hosts pointed out why I like the discrete componentry layout. It's fine to save money by integration but only if you pass on that savings to the consumer rather than pocket it.
Just a correction. The component shown at 16:30 is a liquid cooled condenser. They using the Powertrain cooling to cool the gaseous refrigerant during the high temperature phase. The battery cooling loop section helps with lower subcooling. The refrigerant then exits into a dryer and then a accumulator.
Trust me the PTC heater (Electric Duct Heater) does work and is needed in extreme cold. Its also is 100% efficient and cold, but not extreme temps, it's redundant. It works great and only when needed. Tested to -15F and cabin was toasty so fast. The heat pump seems to work into the single digits. Also the PTC is 100% sized to fully heat the cabin as well as the heat pump (6kW each). Morning warm up in the Winter is extremely fast int he Ioniq 5. I did a bunch of -15F to 72F tests last winter. Amazing! Much better than the Mach E Fluid PTC heater and heater core for sure. Another fun fact is battery heating, Down to -10F, the Hyundai does not heat the battery. The primary use of the battery heater is for fast DCFC in Winter Time. Their battery derating is minimal for cold use (unlike the Mach E).
Yeah IDK why he thinks they don’t need it. Tesla learned the hard way when their heat pumps were worthless at low temps. Plus it is more satisfying when you start out cold and gets the pump running.
@@waynerussell6401 That reeks of a cost saving measure or last minute hack. It's much less effective to have to heat up the entire motor and its coolant rather than just heating the cabin air.
@@денисбаженов-щ1б my observation of driving 8000 miles last winter. The Only heating was when approaching a DCFC with preconditioning enabled for my Ioniq 5 Limited AWD.
The Ionic 5 and Kia EV6 have exhibited power throttling after charging when the battery temp hits 51c. It would be interesting to track down how the thermo management configuration fails to keep the battery cool enough to avoid this.
The compressor consumes, in my observation, around 2kW peak. If we assume a quite generous COP of 5, that means the cooling system can reject about 8kW of heat maximum. On the consumption side, the battery can sink 240kW peak. If we assume 95% charging efficiency (again, I think that's quite generous) that's 12kW of waste heat evolved. Waste heat generated and heat removal capacity simply aren't designed to match. The car is designed to cover MOST charging scenarios by relying on the speed of charging and thermal inertia of the pack to simply hit a voltage bottleneck before it hits a thermal one. It's almost certainly not worth the cost and weight to build in higher cooling capacity simply to avoid worst-case charging scenarios, when you'd only recover a few minutes worth of charging time anyway.
@@AlexWhittemore The charging isn't the only thing affected. The power output throttling can drastically affect acceleration to the point where it's difficult to merge onto the e-way. Tesla doesn't have that problem. Just do it. Tesla could benefit from new programming of the Model S cooling capacity for the Plaid in Track Mode. The car can't make a lap of the Ring without restricting power because of battery temp.
From teslabjorns egmp videos it's the high difference in cell temps that's the problem. Some cells just don't get the same cooling, with the hottest determine the throttling and to me it's that snaked cooling path under the battery. The ones closer to the outlet will struggle.
Alex and Julian are two sharp individuals. Great presentation skills, clearly very knowledgeable. Personally i prefer 1 person presenting. I don't like 2 people explaining the same thing. Tends to come across as an explaination competition. If 2 people are involved, one should be prompting the dialogue with open ended questions or direction with the second person leading the explaination. Just my opinion. Also helps reduce the impression of "mansplaining" that people throw around today, though i don't think that was the case here.
PTC heater is used when the heat pump drops effect in very cold weather... PTC is then used to initial heat air to a temp where heat pump can take over.. so I have heard...
Julian and Alex make a great team! These vids point out novel ways OEMs approach similar functions. I’d like to learn more about why Hyundai is using one type of coolant for the inverters and motors, and a second for the drive battery.
That method of "creeping up on" the control of flow on the surface of the ball valve is pretty brilliant. I don't understand why such a high degree of control is needed at the lower end, And I can't speak on the software's ability to manage this system. But that's a really neat idea.
And according to Bjorn Nyland's testing they still can't keep the battery cells at a common temperature and often see 10-15K (°C..) difference between the coldest and hottest cell according to OBD..
@@zilogfan Heat pumps don't work well or at all in extreme cold conditions. The heat pump reduces the need for resistance heat, it doesn't eliminate it.
Re: the location of the PTC heater being at the outlet of the battery loop, it makes sense because they will have more control over the temperature that the battery cells actually experience. If they measure the temperature at the outlet, they can either throw more heat in, or stop heating before the fluid reaches the cells again since the battery itself also will generate heat while in operation. That's the only reason I can think of anyway.
Talking about the ICCU I would like to see one opened up and maybe if you have an idea why so many are failing after 10-12 months. One person said their dealer had 5 other (besides his) Ioniq 5s on the backlot waiting for ICCUs to come in, there seems to by a 1-3 month wait on parts since that piece is in such high demand.
I like the corrections on screen. Very detailed breakdown and easy to follow. Consider taking some pressure off camera man and ("Breakdown artist"? lol) by using the same on screen text to point out more detail or the specific items being discussed. Especially with so many components. For example I'm a mechanic so I can see the refrigerant connections vs coolant and I'm already familiar with what a condenser or evaporator should look like. i can imagine some struggling to keep up because of lack of familiarity. There are also many new to me things you guys breakdown and who knows what I'm missing 🤓 Great Job as always
Does adding a resistive heater help augment the rapid heating of the cabin along with the heat pump? I would think in colder climates a resistive heater would be a good option?
The measure stick for heating and cooling an EV is without question the octovalve by TESLA. However my Kia EV6 with HP has proven its ability in cold Swiss mountain weather below 0°C to heat quickly to 21°C and that without excessive noise. An EQE costing three times as much took three times longer and was extremely loud, especially for a ‚premium‘ brand a shame. In the beginning we had some fog problems with automated circulated air entering tunnels but we found settings to perfectly adjust the fine working system. Driving after 54 mostly ‚premium‘ cars my first Kia and it’s the best car ever. Just once change wheels and driven 13‘000 km with til automne 16,8 kWh per 100 km, in cold winter til now it’s 17,4 kWh. This is highly effective for a car of that size! The E-GMP platform is really outstanding and hopefully Hyundai Group like ever til now is learning from the best - Sandy Munro and Associates. Think after one year of Kia and Genesis the Coreans are now on a next level and will better manage transition than many other groups. Here also strategic partnerships will help e.g. Porsche and Kroatian Tesla Mate Rimac from Rimac-Bugatti. 🤫🤔😎🇨🇭
Indeed an interesting thermal design. One thing I will say is that it's refreshing to see a young female in STEM, it can be really difficult to find them even remotely qualified when you are trying to hire. An internship really puts her ahead of the majority of any applicants (and I recommend you guys hire her when she graduates).
Oh, it's constant tension "Gland Clamp". At first I thought you said constant tension "Band Camp", which kinda made sense too. ;> Great presentations guys/gals. Very educational. We appreciate the details! And of course, constant comparisons to other makes is the icing on the cake.
as far as the brackets needed, one would think that brackes could be injected molded plastic as opposed to stamped steel. cheaper later and more than strong enough to mount most of those components.
I have 2 Hyundai’s, one with dual heat pump/PTC and one with PTC only and the one without the heat pump is more range efficient in winter range for me. Now the biggest caveat is that my drives are under 20 min 95% of the time so barely time for just the heat pump to run effectively as the temperature stabiliser. The dual system pulls 7-8kw for at least 10 min on the very cold mornings while the PTC system pulls between 3-4kw
Min 20:55 I think that's the component that failed in my car after 2 days of taking it out (brand new) from the dealership, what a shame... And until now, I'm still waiting for my car 😢 to be fixed.. Thanks for this great video!
If you put the pcs heater at the outlet you can have the temperature sensor in the outlet as well, in the same package as the heater. So counterintuitively it might be easier architecturally.
my 2015 VW e Golf has a PTC heater too but it is in the coolant loop with a heat exchanger that is tied to the heat pump into the R134A so it boost the heat output of the heat pump when in very cold weather.
Very interesting video, my thoughs are that it is much easier to search for a leak if there are two separate resouvar instead of one joint one if you get one at some point
17:55, I had my superbottle changed under warrenty due to a broken pump or valve (not entirely sure). Total cost including labour and problem finding was 1.500 USD.
Problem is then instead of just heating up the interior directly, you have to heat up the entire motor and all of the coolant before getting any heat. It's being cheap to save a part but has significant downsides.
@@RobertHancock1 reducing part count whilst maintaining functionality and flexibility is key to Munro's doctrine. This Hyundia example has a heat pump and two resistive heaters. Their battery PTC heats the fluid after the battery which eventually gets routed back to the battery. Tesla uses their motors to create the heat, and their octovalue routes it to where its needed be it, battery, cabin or heating pump. Being cheap is a one dimensional focus on cost only. Designing lean is increasing the area in a spider chart with cost as one of many in a multifactorial plot
@@JoelSapp There is also a PTC heater to heat the cabin air directly, which is much faster than heating the coolant as well as the entire motor mass. Tesla's solution is definitely inferior in very cold conditions and people have complained about that.
Bjørn Nyland, using a OBD found out that the individual cells in this Ioniq 5 and EV6 can be up to 20C degree apart when looking at maximum and minimum temperatures while fast charging. When exploring the battery pack and thermals later on it would be interesting if you could find out why?
They appear to have 3 (4?) loops working against each other? Then with fast charging not starting until the lower temperature reaches 20 degrees and the upper temperature cutting the fast charge at 40-45 degrees, the system is "hunting" for a balance.
I have a MY23 Niro EV and it is basicly the same having a temp of at least 10C between Min and Max temp. I suspect the coolent is in series going though each module rather than in parallel which will far better but higher cost
An excellent exposé from Julian and Alex, as usual from Monro Live. I was curious that Hyundai uses a ball valve to control the flow of refrigerant at 22:00. Is the actuator nonlinear? Or have I completely missed something.
Despite the niggles, my impression of the view 'under the hood' is that it is a VERY tidily organized plant. And thank you to both Alex and Julian for a clear and detailed critique.
Thanks for this video. It has answered a lot I have had about the temperature conditioning of the batteries in the currently available brands of EV. I knew that Tesla put a lot of study into this process, and I was concerned that other vehicles did not have the same technology. Hyundai appears to have done their homework on getting this system to function close to what the Tesla is doing. Granted, as Alex has mentioned here, the parts are more "off the shelf" and "simpler" with serviceability being easier than that of Tesla, it is an effective system. All in all, I would feel much better about purchasing the Hyundai vehicles knowing they have a good battery temperature conditioning system. I know Tesla is constantly upgrading their systems with the latest and greatest technology - but I don't think these other companies are that far behind. Thanks again!
Having a electric heater allows for heating of the cabin while charging in cold countries without running more than the heater and a fan. And secures heating even if you run into -20-30c in the Nordic countries where the heat pump won’t be as effective.
As referenced by @NO3V, This seems to indicate why there's an "odd " variance in the cell and inlet temperatures, which in turn results in let's call it 'non-linear' charging performance depending on both internal and external conditions. Or, to put it another way, there's often a variable but narrow "fast charge" window where the controlling temperatures are both between 20°c and 45(?) °c. . (If you haven't seen the scan data from Bjørn Nyland and others...... Well worth a watch)
Was driving the Ioniq 5 today, very good driving experience. Not sure how they are going to hold up over time design wise. Car I was in already has 10K+ on the odometer.
An articulate review but more time could be devoted to informing about cooling efficiency. This may shock you, there are places in the world where you would never use a heater but would be always trying to keep the vehicle cool.
I heard VW charged extra(option) for heat pump vs resistance type cabin heater. Testing later determined no difference in efficiency with their unit and customer’s reimbursement for the option.
Just asking-do you collect efficiency data or comparison efficiency to other systems like Tesla’s and also weight? I believe I remember Sandy referring to “a gram a day” being a kind of motto in China for EV engineering, and he ended the video last week with his questioning the weight of the sliding console. It’s different to comprehend all the variables you must evaluate!
I am surprised you guys did not mention the shockingly frequent intervals that Hyundai calls out in the owner's manual to change the low-conductivity fluid. The manual states that it needs to be changed every 35k miles or every 36 months. On top of that, in order to get to the drain plug for that low-conductivity loop, you have to take off the entire front bumper cover, adding additional labor costs. Hyundai dealers have quoted anywhere from $300 to $1,200 to perform this service. As an Ioniq 5 owner, I am not looking forward to this. Strangely enough the Ioniq 6 does not retain the 2 coolant design.
@@anxiousappliance every 35k miles is shocking yes to replace a coolant. Very unusual for an EV. Most modern EVs don’t specify coolant replacement until at least 150k miles.
@@anxiousappliance When was the last time you changed your brake fluid? At $1,200 for 1,095 days that is $1.10 a day! That is shocking.! How about $33.20 per month! $398 per year. Fail to change it and find out how much more expensive it can be. Who needs that crap?
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Alex is a very confident and Articulate speaker and knowledgeable on her subject ,well done Alex :)
If only Alex's warm smile 😊 could melt Julian's cool exterior 😐
And to add to that she uses her voice very nicely, it’s so refreshing hear a young lady that doesn’t sound like a creaking ship deck. I don’t know what has happened to voices in the last 20 years or so. They all try to groan like granny would have done in her 90s
She obviously has a lot of understanding of her trade. It great to see.
Really impressive
Very impressive and glad to see Munro displaying such talent
Great show Alex, Julian!! Julian wear a different shirt next time please, you’re man boobs are not impressive 😊 distracts from the technical
Thanks! Julian and Alex, excellent presentation.
Thank you so much!
Great Job Alex and Julian! Excellent presentation.
👏 👏👏👏
Thanks for watching!
The kids are trying, but they have a long way to go. I miss Sandy. His take on this abortion would be the polar opposite of this "glowing" review. These two have got to learn to be more discerning.
Welcome back Alex, having the annotation of the acronyms is useful in keeping things moving without spelling out everything, a good compromise.
Very impressed with the host's presentation and professionalism. I did my mechanical engineering degree in the late '70s and few in my class would have been able to speak as coherently as these two, nevermind fully understand and explain the technologies. I wish I could be working in these exciting times as this interests me more than the IC and even steam engine technologies taught in my time.
On Ioniq 6, EV6 and the Genesis GV60 Hyundiai/Kia did change to an single coolant loop (only one reservoir). The theory is that the Ioniq 5 (as the first E-GMP vehicle) was initally planned using oil cooling for the motors and therefore the two coolant loops. Only late in the development they moved to water based cooling when it was too late to change a lot of stuff. This was then be done on the EV6 which availability was 6 month later.
The blue coolant is also non-conductive I believe which would promote more resiliency in a chain reaction event. Also I thought newer I5's have a single loop, no?
Thanks for explaining that. I have an EV6 and could not understand why I only had one cooling loop if all EGMP cars were essentially the same under the skin
Great! I wanna a diagram of I5 thermal system , it may be a direct desc. to us. 😁
@@TXCraig Looks like they cheaped out on yours 💀
Nice to see Alex again! From "intern" to "co-op"? Hope that's a promotion.
Thank you both for another engaging and informative presentation. Such a pleasure to be guided through the design of these vehicles and their systems. It's a view we mere mortals would not otherwise get.
Thank ye kindly! ^_^
I am confident nobody doubted that she will be a great addition to the team. Looking forward to the next teardown with great insights 😀
I suspect co-op means she gets better pay, so that would qualify as a promotion. Definitely a worthy addition to the team.
after 17:40 back to intern 😂
I'd love to see more about the ICCU since that component seems to be failing on a lot of vehicles at around the 1 year mark for unknown reasons. If you go on the Ioniq 5 forums it's a well documented phenomenon but no one seems to really know why it fails almost always at the 1 year, 20,000 km mark.
Great to see a new face on the channel. Alex did a great job explaining the AC system. It would be great to get a table of each car's cooling/heating system and rank them on numerous factors like packaging, cost, efficiency, weight, etc.
Wow the way Alex articulates and speaks is very soothing and impressive!
17:53 finally a Munro video that doesn't simply bash design haphazardly.
Especialy if (when!) governments (will) makes repairability mandatory to prevent waste. (I know this is not high on the principle list of (US) engineers....)
On the Kona, they changed from a conductive to a (rather expensive) non-conductive coolant at a fairly early stage - maybe they were concerned about the effect of leakage within the battery, and kept with it for the 800V pack here.
Probably to control interactions with the flux used to close the coolant plate. Additives in coolant can form gels when they mix with fluorides.
On the Kona they had the unknown cause for the battery fires and changed due to that. After finding out it was a defective manufacturing process from their battery supplier they didn’t change any of their other “fix processes” back. The same reason the cars slow the charging to very slow around 80%, for a minute, when DC charging.
@@BatterVswithAntonio they had a recall on Ioniq and Kona (at least here in Europe) to replace the coolant with a different type one.
The level on the reservoir was dropping, and then signaling an alert but without any leaks.
It tends to be attributed to the coolant reacting with the cooling plates of the battery, is this what you are talking about?
BTW can't wait to see your video about the battery pack.
@@MatteoBurroni Exactly, the gel forms and stops flow, causes an over pressure in the lines which will burst fittings.
@@MatteoBurroni it forms crystals 😅 but it turned to solid crystal outside of vehicle. so i don't thing the recall to flush the old coolant and change it for a new one is because of old low conductive coolant reacts with flux, it's just the coolant crystalazing.
Alex is very articulate - nice video! Pleased to see these Ioniq 5 teardown videos starting to come out. Thanks for taking the time to do such a thorough overview.
More to come!
Both of you did a very nice job on both the pros and the cons. Really like the way she gave close-ups of showing how they actual bypass valve worked. And the explaining of how both systems work together if needed.
Terrific work on this. Great information. And congratulations to Alex. She's definitely got a bright future in the industry!!! She did an amazing job.
Excellent breakdown from both of you and it’s a reflection of the level of excellence from Munro associates. Loved the comparisons amongst the other EVs cooling systems and capabilities.
Julian did a great job
Thanks Alex. Appreciate you taking the time to share with us.
5:40: A lot of cars with heat pumps for space heating will disable battery cooling when you heat the cabin.
By having a PTC inside the cabin, you can heat the cabin and cool the battery at the same time..
In my opinion, a smart design for cold climates.
Wow I can't believe how knowledgable and refined Alex is as an intern! She has a very bright future in front of her!!
Amazing and in-depth content! With your knowledge and explanations this is a lovely peak into EV development and growth over iterations!
You are both so well spoken! Thank you!
This has been one of the most interesting segments on the Ioniq 5 that I have seen thus far. Thanks!!!
The reason to include a PTC heater and put a resistive heater at the battery outlet is to reduce the temperature delta that the heat pump has to deal with. Heat pumps don't like big deltas.
How much delta T we are talking? 1 to 10?
Sorry but they have misunderstood the system. See my comment above. The PTC heater does not heat the cabin and it takes some time for the heat pump to heat the cabin.
@@hoyacht 20 Celsius to -20 or even lower, so at least 40K (differences are to be expressed in K). If you spec a heat pump for say, 30K and add a resistive heater, you save cost and weight on the heat pump and only lose range during the really cold edge cases.
I've found the Ioniq 5 is the fastest vehicle to get decent heat in the cabin that I have owned.
@@godfreja No doubt the heatpump is fast. I'm happy too. But the heat does not come from the PTC heater. It's easy to confirm this with an OBD scanner which shows that the PTC heater pulls 4-5kW when heating the battery silently while the heatpump pulls at max 2kW initially when not so silently heating the cabin. There is no doubt that the PTC heater does not come on to heat the cabin - it cannot.
Nice job Alex!
Thanks for this video. It shows the complexity of these modern machines. Great explanation by both engineers.
Well done, Alex! You have a great future ahead of you!
The inclusion of the cabin PTC in my experience with a Kona assists the heat pump while the latter is preparing itself for first use. From ambient 7°C and under when heat is first switched the PTC lights up for about 2 minutes drawing around 3.5 kW. The heat pump takes over and consumption drops to 0.6-1.0 kW.
As for the inclusion of both condenser and evaporator in the cabin I was unsure if Alex noted that it also allows for control of humidity using reheat without involving the PTC.
I'm glad our awesome hosts pointed out why I like the discrete componentry layout. It's fine to save money by integration but only if you pass on that savings to the consumer rather than pocket it.
Just a correction. The component shown at 16:30 is a liquid cooled condenser. They using the Powertrain cooling to cool the gaseous refrigerant during the high temperature phase. The battery cooling loop section helps with lower subcooling. The refrigerant then exits into a dryer and then a accumulator.
Nice to see new engineers and one being a woman, keep it up!
Well done. Nice to see Alex again! Lotsa love to all❤❤❤
Another great video for the Ioniq 5 ! Keep them coming!!!!!!
Thanks! Will do!
It's nice to see lots of videos from Munro live
More to come!
Trust me the PTC heater (Electric Duct Heater) does work and is needed in extreme cold. Its also is 100% efficient and cold, but not extreme temps, it's redundant. It works great and only when needed. Tested to -15F and cabin was toasty so fast. The heat pump seems to work into the single digits. Also the PTC is 100% sized to fully heat the cabin as well as the heat pump (6kW each). Morning warm up in the Winter is extremely fast int he Ioniq 5. I did a bunch of -15F to 72F tests last winter. Amazing! Much better than the Mach E Fluid PTC heater and heater core for sure. Another fun fact is battery heating, Down to -10F, the Hyundai does not heat the battery. The primary use of the battery heater is for fast DCFC in Winter Time. Their battery derating is minimal for cold use (unlike the Mach E).
Yeah IDK why he thinks they don’t need it. Tesla learned the hard way when their heat pumps were worthless at low temps. Plus it is more satisfying when you start out cold and gets the pump running.
Yet Nyland finds that despite the belt and braces approach, Korean cars continue to rapid gate.
@@zxggwrt Tesla uses resistance heating - stalled motors and code.
@@waynerussell6401 That reeks of a cost saving measure or last minute hack. It's much less effective to have to heat up the entire motor and its coolant rather than just heating the cabin air.
@@денисбаженов-щ1б my observation of driving 8000 miles last winter. The Only heating was when approaching a DCFC with preconditioning enabled for my Ioniq 5 Limited AWD.
I would expect many editing breaks when talking about such a complex subject and I don't think I saw any. Very impressive.
The Ionic 5 and Kia EV6 have exhibited power throttling after charging when the battery temp hits 51c. It would be interesting to track down how the thermo management configuration fails to keep the battery cool enough to avoid this.
The compressor consumes, in my observation, around 2kW peak. If we assume a quite generous COP of 5, that means the cooling system can reject about 8kW of heat maximum. On the consumption side, the battery can sink 240kW peak. If we assume 95% charging efficiency (again, I think that's quite generous) that's 12kW of waste heat evolved.
Waste heat generated and heat removal capacity simply aren't designed to match. The car is designed to cover MOST charging scenarios by relying on the speed of charging and thermal inertia of the pack to simply hit a voltage bottleneck before it hits a thermal one. It's almost certainly not worth the cost and weight to build in higher cooling capacity simply to avoid worst-case charging scenarios, when you'd only recover a few minutes worth of charging time anyway.
@@AlexWhittemore The charging isn't the only thing affected. The power output throttling can drastically affect acceleration to the point where it's difficult to merge onto the e-way. Tesla doesn't have that problem. Just do it. Tesla could benefit from new programming of the Model S cooling capacity for the Plaid in Track Mode. The car can't make a lap of the Ring without restricting power because of battery temp.
From teslabjorns egmp videos it's the high difference in cell temps that's the problem. Some cells just don't get the same cooling, with the hottest determine the throttling and to me it's that snaked cooling path under the battery. The ones closer to the outlet will struggle.
Alex and Julian are two sharp individuals. Great presentation skills, clearly very knowledgeable. Personally i prefer 1 person presenting. I don't like 2 people explaining the same thing. Tends to come across as an explaination competition. If 2 people are involved, one should be prompting the dialogue with open ended questions or direction with the second person leading the explaination. Just my opinion. Also helps reduce the impression of "mansplaining" that people throw around today, though i don't think that was the case here.
Clearly explained. Great work
PTC heater is used when the heat pump drops effect in very cold weather... PTC is then used to initial heat air to a temp where heat pump can take over.. so I have heard...
Julian and Alex make a great team! These vids point out novel ways OEMs approach similar functions. I’d like to learn more about why Hyundai is using one type of coolant for the inverters and motors, and a second for the drive battery.
Great camerawork & sound. I’m sure the work area is much more noisy. Thanks!
Yes, thanks
Thank you! I learn so much from this channel still have a 2K subscribers I hope get 1M soon.
That method of "creeping up on" the control of flow on the surface of the ball valve is pretty brilliant. I don't understand why such a high degree of control is needed at the lower end, And I can't speak on the software's ability to manage this system. But that's a really neat idea.
Really appreciate your helpful information. I am doing a study on battery thermal management. 🎉
Amazing work!
And according to Bjorn Nyland's testing they still can't keep the battery cells at a common temperature and often see 10-15K (°C..) difference between the coldest and hottest cell according to OBD..
The PTC could also be used when the car is plugged in and needs to be warmed up/defrosted.
ptc almost always uses more heat than a heat pump. If you have one you should be using it for energy conservation...
@@zilogfan Heat pumps don't work well or at all in extreme cold conditions. The heat pump reduces the need for resistance heat, it doesn't eliminate it.
Re: the location of the PTC heater being at the outlet of the battery loop, it makes sense because they will have more control over the temperature that the battery cells actually experience. If they measure the temperature at the outlet, they can either throw more heat in, or stop heating before the fluid reaches the cells again since the battery itself also will generate heat while in operation. That's the only reason I can think of anyway.
Very impressive thank you for the detailed breakdown!
Really like the information you both gave !!! Easy to understand, and pretty nice job by hyundai on build innovation !!
Glad you liked it!
Talking about the ICCU I would like to see one opened up and maybe if you have an idea why so many are failing after 10-12 months. One person said their dealer had 5 other (besides his) Ioniq 5s on the backlot waiting for ICCUs to come in, there seems to by a 1-3 month wait on parts since that piece is in such high demand.
I like the corrections on screen. Very detailed breakdown and easy to follow.
Consider taking some pressure off camera man and ("Breakdown artist"? lol) by using the same on screen text to point out more detail or the specific items being discussed. Especially with so many components.
For example I'm a mechanic so I can see the refrigerant connections vs coolant and I'm already familiar with what a condenser or evaporator should look like. i can imagine some struggling to keep up because of lack of familiarity. There are also many new to me things you guys breakdown and who knows what I'm missing 🤓
Great Job as always
Does adding a resistive heater help augment the rapid heating of the cabin along with the heat pump? I would think in colder climates a resistive heater would be a good option?
It's NOT as Efficient or Effective as a Supermanifold, octovalve, and Tesla made heat pump.
A resistive heater will greatly reduce range in cold weather.
@@markplott4820 Thank you.
@@DishNetworkDealerNEO Thank you.
The measure stick for heating and cooling an EV is without question the octovalve by TESLA. However my Kia EV6 with HP has proven its ability in cold Swiss mountain weather below 0°C to heat quickly to 21°C and that without excessive noise. An EQE costing three times as much took three times longer and was extremely loud, especially for a ‚premium‘ brand a shame. In the beginning we had some fog problems with automated circulated air entering tunnels but we found settings to perfectly adjust the fine working system. Driving after 54 mostly ‚premium‘ cars my first Kia and it’s the best car ever. Just once change wheels and driven 13‘000 km with til automne 16,8 kWh per 100 km, in cold winter til now it’s 17,4 kWh. This is highly effective for a car of that size! The E-GMP platform is really outstanding and hopefully Hyundai Group like ever til now is learning from the best - Sandy Munro and Associates. Think after one year of Kia and Genesis the Coreans are now on a next level and will better manage transition than many other groups. Here also strategic partnerships will help e.g. Porsche and Kroatian Tesla Mate Rimac from Rimac-Bugatti. 🤫🤔😎🇨🇭
Great information I appreciate the video
Thanks
Indeed an interesting thermal design. One thing I will say is that it's refreshing to see a young female in STEM, it can be really difficult to find them even remotely qualified when you are trying to hire. An internship really puts her ahead of the majority of any applicants (and I recommend you guys hire her when she graduates).
Dad - is that you? LOL
Oh, it's constant tension "Gland Clamp". At first I thought you said constant tension "Band Camp", which kinda made sense too. ;>
Great presentations guys/gals. Very educational. We appreciate the details! And of course, constant comparisons to other makes is the icing on the cake.
as far as the brackets needed, one would think that brackes could be injected molded plastic as opposed to stamped steel. cheaper later and more than strong enough to mount most of those components.
I have 2 Hyundai’s, one with dual heat pump/PTC and one with PTC only and the one without the heat pump is more range efficient in winter range for me. Now the biggest caveat is that my drives are under 20 min 95% of the time so barely time for just the heat pump to run effectively as the temperature stabiliser. The dual system pulls 7-8kw for at least 10 min on the very cold mornings while the PTC system pulls between 3-4kw
Same experience on e-soul. For long trips heat pump is great, -for short trips it eats battery.
Min 20:55 I think that's the component that failed in my car after 2 days of taking it out (brand new) from the dealership, what a shame... And until now, I'm still waiting for my car 😢 to be fixed..
Thanks for this great video!
Well done.
Nice to see a mention of serviceability advantages of not having a fully integrated cooling system.
If you put the pcs heater at the outlet you can have the temperature sensor in the outlet as well, in the same package as the heater. So counterintuitively it might be easier architecturally.
This definitely needed a diagram! Or two. Or three.
You don't get everything for free. As Julian said, you can get the full report, but you have to pay for it.
@@curioussand1339 🤑
It would take five minutes to scribble a whiteboard explanation of what the heck is going on.
Björn nyland got a 3 Sided Dokument how preconditioning works. Not only the Hardware ist that complicated 😂
These kids need to learn from WeberAuto with professor Kelly of how to present a technical design.
🙋♂️ THANKS JULIAN,ALEX, GRACE AND THE MUNRO TEAM 🤗👍💚💚💚
my 2015 VW e Golf has a PTC heater too but it is in the coolant loop with a heat exchanger that is tied to the heat pump into the R134A so it boost the heat output of the heat pump when in very cold weather.
Very interesting video, my thoughs are that it is much easier to search for a leak if there are two separate resouvar instead of one joint one if you get one at some point
More Alex. She is great!
The PTC cabin heater can be deactivated by the user, if preserving the last Wh of energy is crucial.
A flaw in this system is when fastcharge you cannot run ac-cooling in the cabin. Any reason you found for this or did i miss it in the video? 😅
17:55, I had my superbottle changed under warrenty due to a broken pump or valve (not entirely sure). Total cost including labour and problem finding was 1.500 USD.
Which you didn't pay....?
@@rogerstarkey5390 of cause. 0$
great presentation! would like initialisms to get spelled out in the captions please
The newer Teslas use resistive heating by putting their motors in an inefficient mode to use electricity to heat the coolant
However, that's "efficient" in terms of the system.....
The best part is a few extra lines of software.
Problem is then instead of just heating up the interior directly, you have to heat up the entire motor and all of the coolant before getting any heat. It's being cheap to save a part but has significant downsides.
@@RobertHancock1 reducing part count whilst maintaining functionality and flexibility is key to Munro's doctrine. This Hyundia example has a heat pump and two resistive heaters. Their battery PTC heats the fluid after the battery which eventually gets routed back to the battery. Tesla uses their motors to create the heat, and their octovalue routes it to where its needed be it, battery, cabin or heating pump.
Being cheap is a one dimensional focus on cost only. Designing lean is increasing the area in a spider chart with cost as one of many in a multifactorial plot
@@JoelSapp There is also a PTC heater to heat the cabin air directly, which is much faster than heating the coolant as well as the entire motor mass. Tesla's solution is definitely inferior in very cold conditions and people have complained about that.
Bjørn Nyland, using a OBD found out that the individual cells in this Ioniq 5 and EV6 can be up to 20C degree apart when looking at maximum and minimum temperatures while fast charging. When exploring the battery pack and thermals later on it would be interesting if you could find out why?
They appear to have 3 (4?) loops working against each other?
Then with fast charging not starting until the lower temperature reaches 20 degrees and the upper temperature cutting the fast charge at 40-45 degrees, the system is "hunting" for a balance.
I have a MY23 Niro EV and it is basicly the same having a temp of at least 10C between Min and Max temp. I suspect the coolent is in series going though each module rather than in parallel which will far better but higher cost
Please provide a PFD (flow diagram) of the heating circuits ;)
I think that's when you have to pay.
Great job
Good vid, though you got a little worried when talking about the Octavalve complexities/drawbacks.....
The PTC heater is a very inexpensive addition and effective backup for extreme weather or cabin heat while plugged in.
An excellent exposé from Julian and Alex, as usual from Monro Live. I was curious that Hyundai uses a ball valve to control the flow of refrigerant at 22:00. Is the actuator nonlinear? Or have I completely missed something.
Despite the niggles, my impression of the view 'under the hood' is that it is a VERY tidily organized plant.
And thank you to both Alex and Julian for a clear and detailed critique.
Possible to see the 2nd gen of the 4680 battery cells that started rolling out I think q2? Improvements, cost etc ?
Thanks for this video. It has answered a lot I have had about the temperature conditioning of the batteries in the currently available brands of EV. I knew that Tesla put a lot of study into this process, and I was concerned that other vehicles did not have the same technology. Hyundai appears to have done their homework on getting this system to function close to what the Tesla is doing. Granted, as Alex has mentioned here, the parts are more "off the shelf" and "simpler" with serviceability being easier than that of Tesla, it is an effective system. All in all, I would feel much better about purchasing the Hyundai vehicles knowing they have a good battery temperature conditioning system. I know Tesla is constantly upgrading their systems with the latest and greatest technology - but I don't think these other companies are that far behind. Thanks again!
Having a electric heater allows for heating of the cabin while charging in cold countries without running more than the heater and a fan. And secures heating even if you run into -20-30c in the Nordic countries where the heat pump won’t be as effective.
If you have a good enough heatpump you can still get a 2x COP down to around -30C.
@@rkan2 yes, but it might not be enough capacity to deliver the required heat.
Hope we see more of Alex.
Thank you for interesting video. It would be better with side by side comparison with other manufacturers with the weight of the total heat system.
The TESLA Supermanifold & octovalve & Tesla made heat pump is GENIUS.
As referenced by @NO3V, This seems to indicate why there's an "odd " variance in the cell and inlet temperatures, which in turn results in let's call it 'non-linear' charging performance depending on both internal and external conditions.
Or, to put it another way, there's often a variable but narrow "fast charge" window where the controlling temperatures are both between 20°c and 45(?) °c.
.
(If you haven't seen the scan data from Bjørn Nyland and others...... Well worth a watch)
Was driving the Ioniq 5 today, very good driving experience. Not sure how they are going to hold up over time design wise. Car I was in already has 10K+ on the odometer.
The spongebob transition was the best part. Thanks for that 😅
An articulate review but more time could be devoted to informing about cooling efficiency.
This may shock you, there are places in the world where you would never use a heater but would be always trying to keep the vehicle cool.
The coolant block with a dryer looks expensive to replace if servicing the coolant loop. Most people charge the dryer.
Great love Munro ! Where does one put his beer cooler in frunk with this setup ?? Asking for many impressed friend of the other usa made product ….
It would be great to see a schematic of the systems thay are talking about. I am a visual person. Some of this presentation left me baffled.
Must of been die cast aluminum parts on that heat exchanger?
Would like to see a separate tear down on it?
I know it is not mainstream in the US but it would be great to see Stelantils EMP platform thermally explained.
I heard VW charged extra(option) for heat pump vs resistance type cabin heater. Testing later determined no difference in efficiency with their unit and customer’s reimbursement for the option.
The RWD models for 2022 did not have a heat pump. I wonder if they left it in for AWD models for more efficient heating like was mentioned.
It depends on the country. In Canada we have the heat pump on the RWD model
Exactly. It depends on the country. In Denmark we have the heat pump on the RWD model too.
Thank you!
Just asking-do you collect efficiency data or comparison efficiency to other systems like Tesla’s and also weight? I believe I remember Sandy referring to “a gram a day” being a kind of motto in China for EV engineering, and he ended the video last week with his questioning the weight of the sliding console. It’s different to comprehend all the variables you must evaluate!
I am surprised you guys did not mention the shockingly frequent intervals that Hyundai calls out in the owner's manual to change the low-conductivity fluid. The manual states that it needs to be changed every 35k miles or every 36 months. On top of that, in order to get to the drain plug for that low-conductivity loop, you have to take off the entire front bumper cover, adding additional labor costs. Hyundai dealers have quoted anywhere from $300 to $1,200 to perform this service. As an Ioniq 5 owner, I am not looking forward to this. Strangely enough the Ioniq 6 does not retain the 2 coolant design.
every three years is "shocking"? Inconvenient, annoying - sure, but not shockingly frequent.
@@anxiousappliance every 35k miles is shocking yes to replace a coolant. Very unusual for an EV. Most modern EVs don’t specify coolant replacement until at least 150k miles.
@@anxiousappliance When was the last time you changed your brake fluid? At $1,200 for 1,095 days that is $1.10 a day! That is shocking.! How about $33.20 per month! $398 per year. Fail to change it and find out how much more expensive it can be. Who needs that crap?
Lots of cool technology
ok. good. I like your video. thank you