The most beautiful concept that you all display so well in this series of discussions, and one of the biggest things I came away with, is that when I drop the conditions around my own worth and feelings of being loved by a higher power, I naturally and easily can drop any conditions or barriers to loving others. I felt a weight come off my shoulders listening to this series of interviews. Thank-you from my deepest place of love and respect. Getting back to our roots isn't about practicing strange doctrines like polygamy or United Order. Returning to our foundations is being able to remove all barriers and truly love and serve one another of our own free will. No coercion. No guilt or shame. Just a simple return to the foundation found in Christ's teachings and example.
I'm a happy LDS member who considers himself an open minded but also dedicated Christian. The church has been nothing but wonderful for me and my family and blessed our lives which is why I stay faithful. I watch these videos on this channel because I understand there are atrocities that have happened and still happen in our church as well as all others. I think it's important to not cherry pick when it comes to history. Anyways, I just gotta say I really really enjoyed Steven a lot. He's a gem of a person who has nothing but love in his heart and it's very obvious from these 4 segments. I enjoyed his views, his knowledge and depth of historical events. Just wanted to say thank you Steven and thank you John for putting this on.
I was raised in the LDS church and, for the most part, raised my family there. I left 19 years ago. My son's church sings, prays and really has a lot of fun with making the gospel come alive for them. It is great. The church I attend is an offshoot of the LDS Church and tends to be more reverent in meetings, but we love singing. We have special numbers with guitars, drums, violins, and flutes. We have original hymns made for our church too. It is pretty great. I went back to a LDS ward a year or so ago and it similar to how Steve described it.
These changes would mean the LDS would have to drop the ONE TRUE CHURCH claim. What could they do with that? Salt Lake won't let go of their superiority complex.
When it comes to "giving notes" to the brethren for job they have been doing operating the church this episode has been pretty wholesome. The topics covered seem sincere and honestly to aimed at illuminating a path for the church to improve itself. While there is criticism here and there it's pretty gentle and the vibe is one of genuinely trying to help (not to sabotage the church or see it come to "harm") Good episode folks!
Yes! Tithing should be voluntary! Give what you can and when you can. Something I love about the Catholic church is that there are special charities and parish related fundraising through tithing and many choose to give what they can do those options too. And I agree about making the word of wisdom optional... My ex-husband even explained that there is a section about limiting meat consumption during parts of the year due to when meat was more readily available so if the church can allow energy drinks, and sodas and meat all year then making word of wisdom voluntary at this point makes sense. I think the LDS church would be even more diverse and dynamic if they allowed their beautiful diverse members to incorporate their cultures into the meetings. Since coming back to the Catholic church from non-denominational protestant Christianity, I am unafraid to sing OUT raise my hands in worship too. No one can take my faith or baptism away. It is my right to run to Jesus I'my worship and I would love to see LDS do the same.
Another happy LDS member here. I have no objections to Steve's suggestions, and loved that all his suggestions were simply a return to past LDS tradition. I don't see removing "coffee prohibition" as super problematic for active church membership, especially considering Jana Reiss study showed that 40% of active millenial LDS had drunk coffee in the past 6 months. Jana Reiss study showed that younger Mormon's are less interested in following a long list of arbitrary "Mosaic Law" style set of rules, and more interested in charity, love "Gospel of Christ" style religion. FYI on the music... From my research, the Guitar has never been explicitly banned from use in sacrament meeting, though many leaders around the world considered guitar innappropriate for sacrament meeting. In my stake in Hamilton, NZ, using guitar in sacrament is quite normal, though even in my city you will get the odd bishop who prefers to stick to piano for special musical items. The 1989 handbook stated: "[m]usic and musical texts are to be sacred, dignified, and otherwise suitable for a Latter-day Saint meeting." However, other church pamphlets discouraged the use of brass and percussion. Later handbooks discouraged the use of "most brass and percussion". E.g. 2010 handbook: "Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion,[fn1] are not appropriate for sacrament meeting." The 2021 handbook revisions REMOVED the explicit banning of any instruments. The current handbook states: "Sacred music that is written or sung in culturally diverse musical styles may help unify congregations. Music coordinators and priesthood leaders may include a variety of appropriate musical styles that appeal to members of various backgrounds." The comments in this article suggest that Benson and Packer were two of the GAs responsible for many leaders banning guitar and other supposedly "less worshipful" instruments. bycommonconsent.com/2022/01/14/handbook-changes-music-at-church/
I can’t believe what I just heard! Instead of being judgmental he responded the way Jesus would. I never thought in my lifetime that the Mormon could be my spiritual brother. If they could embrace grace as a basis for salvation instead of a works basis I would truly embrace them as my brother even though we disagree on many theological issues. God is truly opening the eyes and minds of the Mormon people.
What if you put an ice cube in your green tea. Hot drink is now mildly warm. I’m a thinker. And what about soup? Is that a hot drink? Can I drink coffee with a spoon.
I believe that the difference between evangelical Christianity and any other religions is that all other religions is man seeking God where Christianity it’s God seeking man.
*theosis not apotheosis which is a pagan concept where men are elevated to gods. Theosis in Catholicism and Orthodox is by holiness being conformed to the image of God and "partaking of the divine nature" not being an independent god among a pantheon, but achieving communion with the one God.
Voluntary tithing would assume that the LDS church is not a corporation, but its behavior rather indicates that it is (thinking of running shopping malls, having a missionary "sales force", etc).
Just a short comment on tithing, comparing it to my own religion. In Islam we pay zakat, which is considered an obligation. Zakat has to be used to help the needy - so it cannot be used for building mosques etc. Zakat only applies to wealth that is above your daily needs. So if you earn barely enough to live, you don't need to pay zakat. There are many religious organizations that you can pay your zakat to, but you can also give it to people in need individually - let's say your neighbor is poor and meets the criteria to receive zakat, you can just go and give him the money without reporting to anyone about it. This means there is no control - noone will know if you payed your zakat, and how much it was.
God’s GRACE is the key to Christian Faith. Your guest is right on regarding Grace. Most Christians see LDS Church as a religion based on works not Grace, thus a cult.
If the Mormon church were more crafty they would declare Heavenly Mother to be the Holy Ghost. Even in parts of Judaism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy some of the church fathers referred to the Spirit in the feminine. I brought this up at a gospel principles class and people gave me a look of shock and horror lol
My family growing up once attended a community event at a Christian (non-mormon) church and there was a drumset prominently located on the stage. From there on, my parents referred to it as the "First Church of the Drumset". I don't think amping up the music in the LDS church would go over well with the established church base, although the younger members may appreciate it.
My mother converted to Mormonism as a teen while the rest of her family were Southern Baptists. Eventually some joined the Church but not my grandfather. When I stayed with them in the Summer we went to Mormon Church & So Baptist on Sundays. What a difference and not only the joyous music either. They would also shout out “Hallelujah”, “Praise Jesus” and such. My grandmothers best friend was a black lady who smoked! I found that church to be more fun Regarding musical instruments; the church of my upbringing encouraged the members to learn the arts including learning to play musical instruments. My great-grandfather even has a clarinet in the LDS Museum that he played at the funeral procession forJoseph and Hyrum. Are they afraid of a joyful noise? Is it too vain? I don’t understand the benefit from limiting a joyous noise and how that is more spiritual somehow
Hi Steven, Your asking the Mormon Corporation to behave like a religion. Corporations are all about the "Maximumization of shareholders wealth." And they have performed this well estimated to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars! Leaders currently might claim,.as i have heard is current practiced, all you receive is already Gods, how can you withhold Gods portion, tithing! The Mornon church has historically taught its members to pay their tithing before paying rent, food, clothing even necessities for children, and God will bless you for being faithful! Corporations are not known for compassion! Rather a twisted logic that would have people short their families needs to amass a large corporations wealth! You might enjoy the history but without experiencing it from within, as a member, you don't possess the complete picture!
This guy has great ideas, but he also is not coming at this from a place of being raised in the church and told certain things (a lot of them) that turned out to not be truth. At this point, it would just piss me off if the church made tithing/word of wisdom voluntary, because so many of us lived as if our salvation depended on it, because that was the truth. Not concerned that it will happen though.
20:50 Making the word of wisdom voluntary ... can you imagine someone going through the endowment on mushrooms? ... or doing sealings while on MDMA? ... talk about your "spiritual" experiences.
I have soo much to say on this episode! Begin with the WOW.. Joseph Smith had a bar in the Nauvoo house and sold beer for heavens sake.. and then fast forward wasn’t it Hugh B brown that actually added any hot drink to it? Including chicken noodle soup! Then add tithing to this mix and this is all requirements to Get into the temple.. kind of Like a college admittance fee right? That might sound like we have free agency in that and yes we can choose to or not but when it’s conditioned in order to receive salvation? My eyes are opening to the actual control the church wants over its members! Any time i think of any rule or regulation now I say.. is this really what Jesus would do? Would he really expect people to not drink coffee or tea in order to get to the celestial kingdom? And more especially when you realize that it was not a commandant when it was implemented.. it wasn’t until prohibition that it became a commandment.. The more I understand the way the church does things the more I realize how much of a reactionary church it is! They react after the fact to fix what needs fixed! That’s not revelation! That’s not prophecy! Then let’s add the fact that women in the church actually had the ability to lay hands on the sick and speak in tongues.. Zina Smith Young actually mentions that in the book In Sacred Loneliness.. its sad that so many don’t know anything about church history and even now They don’t know unless they decide to look into it for one reason or the other.. My deal in searching was about polygamy and then went down the rabbit hole.. CES letter and the gospel topics essays and watching these podcasts to get better informed on what took place.. There’s soo much! I have an idea for you.. if there was a facebook page set up just for church history and then links can be added so regular members who don’t have a clue can look on it and maybe just maybe get exposed to these truths! That way regular members that have recently been exposed to these things have a way to share with them and have their eyes opened without them thinking You are on some anti Mormon agenda.. After all this is actually history! Right?
On the issue of tithing, we were taught that we were the kingdom of God and that tithing is meant to build up the kingdom. However, giving your 10% is only recognized by financial contributions to the chosen church. If I as an individual choose to build up the kingdom outside the recognized channels, it is not considered as faithful. The entire world and all beings are part of the kingdom of God and not exclusive to the bounds of the “Church”. If I build one soul, inside or outside the “Church”, I am building the kingdom of God, whether it adds anything financially. Being recognized as faithful in this context, allows a more inclusive perspective and real relationship with God and His creations.
In the Catholic Church we believe that faith through God’s grace is 100% a gift from God/Christ because he loves all of us (enough to make the ultimate sacrifice, absorb our sin and suffer and die on the cross). Catholicism is NOT works based! We believe God invites us into relationship with him and so his invitation requires a response. Are we going to participate in his love story or do we choose our own will? I believe God’s will is objective truth. Faith includes charity (to love God above all, including above our own desires. And to love one another). Please know there are so many misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Please study up and learn and never stop seeking the truth. Father Mike Schmitz produces a great podcast through Ascension Presents. Also, God invites us to gather together to worship him. How do you do this without a church?
The cross was an instrument of torture and execution. Even growing up Methodist, I hated the idea of wearing one around my neck. In my opinion, it isn't beautiful, it's horrifying. I remember asking my LDS cousin why she didn't wear a cross, and when she told me that it was because they believed that Christ was alive, not dead, and I loved that. A schoolfriend was JW and told me that she believed it was 'taking a graven image before God', which made absolute sense as well, especially after I learned that the cross was actually a pagan symbol long before Christianity took it to their own as a symbol of the crucifixion. blech.
Regarding APOTHEOSIS: Did you know that we have a mural of George Washington looking down from the clouds surrounded by a bevy of his Goddess-wives on the ceiling of the United States Capitol building - and it wasn't even a Mormon who painted it. Its been there since 1865. THE GODDESS IS REAL!
In the Christian churches the cross is “empty” and total represent the gift of Christ who died and was resurrected. The Catholic Church with Christ on the cross is a symbol emphasizing His death.
Not disagreeing with you but Could you imagine having your wedding at a temple and a bunch of homeless people hanging out in the parking lot waiting for a meal.
I think if they wanted to say that it is your choice to drink coffee or tea but they recommend getting addicted to substances then they could frame it like we are receiving this new revelation because in the world there are now a lot of different addictive things that were not as popular or well known at the time Joseph Smith lived such as different kinds of pills and drugs that are being passed around recently. So the guideline could be updated to say to avoid addictive behaviors and that caffeine is addictive so to make your own choice and use medication safely and wisely. And they could frame it like okay first when Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were setting up the church they were given a lot of specific black and white instructions but now over time as the church members have become stronger and more faithful they are now ready for a higher law which does involve being able to choose for yourself whether to follow the recommendation to avoid addictive substances or to use them if the spirit has confirmed to you through personal revelation if it is right for you to drink them. so it's kind of an ego boost for the members to say that we are now going to practice a higher law.
Hi Steven, The weirdness of Mormonism is presented as factual, and as Mormonism lays claim to being the "only true church," brilliant people in sciences believe and teach foolishness over sciences they are educated in as facts! While it may appear entertaining to some it is definitely misleading and distasteful to many, causing its members to believe in fairytales as facts alters their view of reality and makes them like children speaking babble in a 21/st century world! Were the fairytales used as metaphors with hidden spiritual messages as opposed to facts, members could remain in our reality yet seek beyond our understanding without making fools of themselves to the scientific community and the world in general! They could work with the sciences as opposed to battling it! Mormon leaderships failure to comprehend its own doctrine, such as becoming gods, and thus moving away from it makes them look like someone stepped in something and tracked it into the house! It stinks, its not desired and needs to be cleaned up with as little attention as possible! Were Mormonism to drop it "only true church" claim, it could help more people with less BS. I don't see that as likely! It's like the Social Security system promised us retirement funds for paying in all these years. Many people received funds from it paying little or nothing in. Now its our turn to receive and the Govt. speaks of insolvency, which was never an option as we were lead along, it was always backed by the strength of the U.S. Govt. Using this metaphor toward Mormonism, there have been promises made to its members, sacrifices paid and when the reward becomes watered down such as the current leaders no longer make the claim members are gods in embryo, the psychological loss can cause a crack up in the memberships identity! The gold turns to ashes and their lifes ambition crumbles before them! Don't you think the members deserve something more rewarding?
As a NeverMo, I like how Joseph was so creative, imagining a totally new thing, Jews going to the Americas, Heavenly Mother, Freemasonry, treasure digging, the golden pot, polygamy, Kolob, God having a body, etc. Other churches, e.g. Jehovah's witnesses, are much less creative and only tweak the existing scriptures. That is why, Mormonism is my favorite high demand religion. For some time, I dabbled in scientology, which is even weirder, but that one is too cruel and over-demanding to be successful.
What I'm hearing is: "Keep Mormonism weird" but change it to be completely different than leaders will ever, EVER allow. Additionally, what is intriguing and entertaining to an outsider looking in, is extremely damaging to those who actually live in it. Booklearning is NOT the same as brute lived experience. One more gay child that I'm aware of just died by suicide the day after this most recent General Conference. This church isn't a safe place, as entertaining as it may seem to non-mormons.
What's wrong in believing we have a Mother in Heaven??? Where do the women go if we don't??? Does that mean we have what God doesn't?? A love of our life??
Oh Samuel...you are lost beyond lost... Where do the women go??????? Every man and woman has free will on Earth to believe in Jesus. It has nothing to do with sex. Women aren't dependent upon men to get to heaven 😅. Why doesn't God have "a love of his life?" Father God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are the trinity. They have each other. Your comment scares me because you are so "out of it".
Because people stupidly believe that their salvation is dependent upon their tithing. The LDS church is DYING. I used to live in Utah for several years. People are leaving in DROVES. The numbers (in the LDS church) are false. There are not that many members at all. When people try to remove themselves as a member of the church, the church won't take them off the "list".
Steve is a "believer of Jesus" and His truth, but then gives himself permission to suggest that Mormons should pick and choose what to believe. Make it weird? Also, he suggests Mormons should copy the mega churches everywhere that focus on entertaining ppl. I'm confused. Does that mean Steve believes there is no ultimate truth? it's up to us?
my bible says about church wealth that the original *authentic) Holy Spirit guided church had ALL THINGS IN COMMON Uder the threat f death...was it Elvira. that died for lying about her and her husband with)?. The Apostles were the custodians of that wealth...Ic all that "commonism". lol
Maybe the next episode will be a ridiculous uninvited consultation of how the MARVEL comic books could follow this guy's favored myths... Where is Carah when we need someone to keep the conversation above a preschool fantasy level?
YES! This whole conversation didn’t sit well with me and I made a long comment above, but you articulated what I am feeling very succintly, thank you 🙏 And caffeine rules 😂😂😂
my bible says about church wealth that the original *authentic) Holy Spirit guided church had ALL THINGS IN COMMON Uder the threat f death...was it Elvira. that died for lying about her and her husband with)?. The Apostles were the custodians of that wealth...Ic all that "commonism". lol
This person is so full of compassion. Wow! Thank you so much for your gentle perspective.
Thank you for the kind words.
The most beautiful concept that you all display so well in this series of discussions, and one of the biggest things I came away with, is that when I drop the conditions around my own worth and feelings of being loved by a higher power, I naturally and easily can drop any conditions or barriers to loving others. I felt a weight come off my shoulders listening to this series of interviews. Thank-you from my deepest place of love and respect. Getting back to our roots isn't about practicing strange doctrines like polygamy or United Order. Returning to our foundations is being able to remove all barriers and truly love and serve one another of our own free will. No coercion. No guilt or shame. Just a simple return to the foundation found in Christ's teachings and example.
Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to God alone be the glory!
I'm a happy LDS member who considers himself an open minded but also dedicated Christian. The church has been nothing but wonderful for me and my family and blessed our lives which is why I stay faithful. I watch these videos on this channel because I understand there are atrocities that have happened and still happen in our church as well as all others. I think it's important to not cherry pick when it comes to history.
Anyways, I just gotta say I really really enjoyed Steven a lot. He's a gem of a person who has nothing but love in his heart and it's very obvious from these 4 segments. I enjoyed his views, his knowledge and depth of historical events. Just wanted to say thank you Steven and thank you John for putting this on.
Wow! Thank you for the kind words
I was raised in the LDS church and, for the most part, raised my family there. I left 19 years ago. My son's church sings, prays and really has a lot of fun with making the gospel come alive for them. It is great. The church I attend is an offshoot of the LDS Church and tends to be more reverent in meetings, but we love singing. We have special numbers with guitars, drums, violins, and flutes. We have original hymns made for our church too. It is pretty great. I went back to a LDS ward a year or so ago and it similar to how Steve described it.
These changes would mean the LDS would have to drop the ONE TRUE CHURCH claim. What could they do with that? Salt Lake won't let go of their superiority complex.
Exactly. Drop it’s exclusive truth claims. We all know that will never happen lol but nice thoughts.
So true and should be suggestion #1
What a phenomenal, and deep epic series!
Thank you Steven, John, Gerardo and Jen 🙏
When it comes to "giving notes" to the brethren for job they have been doing operating the church this episode has been pretty wholesome.
The topics covered seem sincere and honestly to aimed at illuminating a path for the church to improve itself. While there is criticism here and there it's pretty gentle and the vibe is one of genuinely trying to help (not to sabotage the church or see it come to "harm")
Good episode folks!
Thanks!
Yes! Tithing should be voluntary! Give what you can and when you can. Something I love about the Catholic church is that there are special charities and parish related fundraising through tithing and many choose to give what they can do those options too. And I agree about making the word of wisdom optional... My ex-husband even explained that there is a section about limiting meat consumption during parts of the year due to when meat was more readily available so if the church can allow energy drinks, and sodas and meat all year then making word of wisdom voluntary at this point makes sense.
I think the LDS church would be even more diverse and dynamic if they allowed their beautiful diverse members to incorporate their cultures into the meetings.
Since coming back to the Catholic church from non-denominational protestant Christianity, I am unafraid to sing OUT raise my hands in worship too. No one can take my faith or baptism away. It is my right to run to Jesus I'my worship and I would love to see LDS do the same.
When my husband followed word of wisdom in the RLDS ( when we were believers) it included eating No Red Meat in the summer months…
Another happy LDS member here. I have no objections to Steve's suggestions, and loved that all his suggestions were simply a return to past LDS tradition.
I don't see removing "coffee prohibition" as super problematic for active church membership, especially considering Jana Reiss study showed that 40% of active millenial LDS had drunk coffee in the past 6 months. Jana Reiss study showed that younger Mormon's are less interested in following a long list of arbitrary "Mosaic Law" style set of rules, and more interested in charity, love "Gospel of Christ" style religion.
FYI on the music... From my research, the Guitar has never been explicitly banned from use in sacrament meeting, though many leaders around the world considered guitar innappropriate for sacrament meeting.
In my stake in Hamilton, NZ, using guitar in sacrament is quite normal, though even in my city you will get the odd bishop who prefers to stick to piano for special musical items.
The 1989 handbook stated:
"[m]usic and musical texts are to be sacred, dignified, and otherwise suitable for a Latter-day Saint meeting."
However, other church pamphlets discouraged the use of brass and percussion.
Later handbooks discouraged the use of "most brass and percussion". E.g. 2010 handbook:
"Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion,[fn1] are not appropriate for sacrament meeting."
The 2021 handbook revisions REMOVED the explicit banning of any instruments. The current handbook states:
"Sacred music that is written or sung in culturally diverse musical styles may help unify congregations. Music coordinators and priesthood leaders may include a variety of appropriate musical styles that appeal to members of various backgrounds."
The comments in this article suggest that Benson and Packer were two of the GAs responsible for many leaders banning guitar and other supposedly "less worshipful" instruments.
bycommonconsent.com/2022/01/14/handbook-changes-music-at-church/
I can’t believe what I just heard! Instead of being judgmental he responded the way Jesus would. I never thought in my lifetime that the Mormon could be my spiritual brother. If they could embrace grace as a basis for salvation instead of a works basis I would truly embrace them as my brother even though we disagree on many theological issues. God is truly opening the eyes and minds of the Mormon people.
This guy has a gift of explaining things
Thanks!
What if you put an ice cube in your green tea. Hot drink is now mildly warm. I’m a thinker. And what about soup? Is that a hot drink? Can I drink coffee with a spoon.
I believe that the difference between evangelical Christianity and any other religions is that all other religions is man seeking God where Christianity it’s God seeking man.
*theosis not apotheosis which is a pagan concept where men are elevated to gods. Theosis in Catholicism and Orthodox is by holiness being conformed to the image of God and "partaking of the divine nature" not being an independent god among a pantheon, but achieving communion with the one God.
Sure like thus guy. Me and wife both. He is so fair, so non-judgmental, so willing to see good everywhere. Loved #3, hope this is as good.
EPIC!
Voluntary tithing would assume that the LDS church is not a corporation, but its behavior rather indicates that it is (thinking of running shopping malls, having a missionary "sales force", etc).
Just a short comment on tithing, comparing it to my own religion. In Islam we pay zakat, which is considered an obligation. Zakat has to be used to help the needy - so it cannot be used for building mosques etc. Zakat only applies to wealth that is above your daily needs. So if you earn barely enough to live, you don't need to pay zakat. There are many religious organizations that you can pay your zakat to, but you can also give it to people in need individually - let's say your neighbor is poor and meets the criteria to receive zakat, you can just go and give him the money without reporting to anyone about it. This means there is no control - noone will know if you payed your zakat, and how much it was.
God’s GRACE is the key to Christian Faith. Your guest is right on regarding Grace. Most Christians see LDS Church as a religion based on works not Grace, thus a cult.
John and Steven,@ about 19:50 to 20 min mark. As for the intermediary idea this is exactly the point
Sorry I didn’t finish
If the Mormon church were more crafty they would declare Heavenly Mother to be the Holy Ghost.
Even in parts of Judaism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy some of the church fathers referred to the Spirit in the feminine.
I brought this up at a gospel principles class and people gave me a look of shock and horror lol
I am a ex jw. I do not like modern religious music or all the yelling that some pastors do.
My family growing up once attended a community event at a Christian (non-mormon) church and there was a drumset prominently located on the stage. From there on, my parents referred to it as the "First Church of the Drumset". I don't think amping up the music in the LDS church would go over well with the established church base, although the younger members may appreciate it.
My mother converted to Mormonism as a teen while the rest of her family were Southern Baptists. Eventually some joined the Church but not my grandfather. When I stayed with them in the Summer we went to Mormon Church & So Baptist on Sundays. What a difference and not only the joyous music either. They would also shout out “Hallelujah”, “Praise Jesus” and such. My grandmothers best friend was a black lady who smoked! I found that church to be more fun
Regarding musical instruments; the church of my upbringing encouraged the members to learn the arts including learning to play musical instruments. My great-grandfather even has a clarinet in the LDS Museum that he played at the funeral procession forJoseph and Hyrum. Are they afraid of a joyful noise? Is it too vain? I don’t understand the benefit from limiting a joyous noise and how that is more spiritual somehow
Home owners associations do the same!. We can only paint our house a certain color. No clothesline!
The Lds would never open their temples to the homeless unfortunately. They are to sacred lol.
Hi Steven,
Your asking the Mormon Corporation to behave like a religion. Corporations are all about the "Maximumization of shareholders wealth." And they have performed this well estimated to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars! Leaders currently might claim,.as i have heard is current practiced, all you receive is already Gods, how can you withhold Gods portion, tithing! The Mornon church has historically taught its members to pay their tithing before paying rent, food, clothing even necessities for children, and God will bless you for being faithful! Corporations are not known for compassion! Rather a twisted logic that would have people short their families needs to amass a large corporations wealth! You might enjoy the history but without experiencing it from within, as a member, you don't possess the complete picture!
Agreed on the song changes
I would my the church to focus more on cosmology and metaphysics.
This guy has great ideas, but he also is not coming at this from a place of being raised in the church and told certain things (a lot of them) that turned out to not be truth. At this point, it would just piss me off if the church made tithing/word of wisdom voluntary, because so many of us lived as if our salvation depended on it, because that was the truth. Not concerned that it will happen though.
20:50 Making the word of wisdom voluntary ... can you imagine someone going through the endowment on mushrooms? ... or doing sealings while on MDMA? ... talk about your "spiritual" experiences.
I have soo much to say on this episode! Begin with the WOW.. Joseph Smith had a bar in the Nauvoo house and sold beer for heavens sake.. and then fast forward wasn’t it Hugh B brown that actually added any hot drink to it? Including chicken noodle soup! Then add tithing to this mix and this is all requirements to Get into the temple.. kind of Like a college admittance fee right? That might sound like we have free agency in that and yes we can choose to or not but when it’s conditioned in order to receive salvation? My eyes are opening to the actual control the church wants over its members! Any time i think of any rule or regulation now I say.. is this really what Jesus would do? Would he really expect people to not drink coffee or tea in order to get to the celestial kingdom? And more especially when you realize that it was not a commandant when it was implemented.. it wasn’t until prohibition that it became a commandment.. The more I understand the way the church does things the more I realize how much of a reactionary church it is! They react after the fact to fix what needs fixed! That’s not revelation! That’s not prophecy! Then let’s add the fact that women in the church actually had the ability to lay hands on the sick and speak in tongues.. Zina Smith Young actually mentions that in the book In Sacred Loneliness.. its sad that so many don’t know anything about church history and even now They don’t know unless they decide to look into it for one reason or the other.. My deal in searching was about polygamy and then went down the rabbit hole.. CES letter and the gospel topics essays and watching these podcasts to get better informed on what took place.. There’s soo much! I have an idea for you.. if there was a facebook page set up just for church history and then links can be added so regular members who don’t have a clue can look on it and maybe just maybe get exposed to these truths! That way regular members that have recently been exposed to these things have a way to share with them and have their eyes opened without them thinking You are on some anti Mormon agenda.. After all this is actually history! Right?
Paul warned against this gnostic distortion of doctrine.
On the issue of tithing, we were taught that we were the kingdom of God and that tithing is meant to build up the kingdom. However, giving your 10% is only recognized by financial contributions to the chosen church. If I as an individual choose to build up the kingdom outside the recognized channels, it is not considered as faithful. The entire world and all beings are part of the kingdom of God and not exclusive to the bounds of the “Church”. If I build one soul, inside or outside the “Church”, I am building the kingdom of God, whether it adds anything financially. Being recognized as faithful in this context, allows a more inclusive perspective and real relationship with God and His creations.
In the Catholic Church we believe that faith through God’s grace is 100% a gift from God/Christ because he loves all of us (enough to make the ultimate sacrifice, absorb our sin and suffer and die on the cross). Catholicism is NOT works based! We believe God invites us into relationship with him and so his invitation requires a response. Are we going to participate in his love story or do we choose our own will? I believe God’s will is objective truth. Faith includes charity (to love God above all, including above our own desires. And to love one another). Please know there are so many misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Please study up and learn and never stop seeking the truth. Father Mike Schmitz produces a great podcast through Ascension Presents. Also, God invites us to gather together to worship him. How do you do this without a church?
At what point is it just mind control?
1:00:00 i like Steven but it is simply incorrect to say that Christianity focused on grace is the only religion that has no demands of the followers.
The cross was an instrument of torture and execution. Even growing up Methodist, I hated the idea of wearing one around my neck. In my opinion, it isn't beautiful, it's horrifying. I remember asking my LDS cousin why she didn't wear a cross, and when she told me that it was because they believed that Christ was alive, not dead, and I loved that. A schoolfriend was JW and told me that she believed it was 'taking a graven image before God', which made absolute sense as well, especially after I learned that the cross was actually a pagan symbol long before Christianity took it to their own as a symbol of the crucifixion. blech.
Regarding APOTHEOSIS: Did you know that we have a mural of George Washington looking down from the clouds surrounded by a bevy of his Goddess-wives on the ceiling of the United States Capitol building - and it wasn't even a Mormon who painted it. Its been there since 1865. THE GODDESS IS REAL!
In the Christian churches the cross is “empty” and total represent the gift of Christ who died and was resurrected. The Catholic Church with Christ on the cross is a symbol emphasizing His death.
Not disagreeing with you but Could you imagine having your wedding at a temple and a bunch of homeless people hanging out in the parking lot waiting for a meal.
That would be radical, actually - in the best way.
I think if they wanted to say that it is your choice to drink coffee or tea but they recommend getting addicted to substances then they could frame it like we are receiving this new revelation because in the world there are now a lot of different addictive things that were not as popular or well known at the time Joseph Smith lived such as different kinds of pills and drugs that are being passed around recently. So the guideline could be updated to say to avoid addictive behaviors and that caffeine is addictive so to make your own choice and use medication safely and wisely. And they could frame it like okay first when Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were setting up the church they were given a lot of specific black and white instructions but now over time as the church members have become stronger and more faithful they are now ready for a higher law which does involve being able to choose for yourself whether to follow the recommendation to avoid addictive substances or to use them if the spirit has confirmed to you through personal revelation if it is right for you to drink them.
so it's kind of an ego boost for the members to say that we are now going to practice a higher law.
Dude, Protestants also have scrupulosity. Remember the Puritans?
Hi Steven,
The weirdness of Mormonism is presented as factual, and as Mormonism lays claim to being the "only true church," brilliant people in sciences believe and teach foolishness over sciences they are educated in as facts! While it may appear entertaining to some it is definitely misleading and distasteful to many, causing its members to believe in fairytales as facts alters their view of reality and makes them like children speaking babble in a 21/st century world! Were the fairytales used as metaphors with hidden spiritual messages as opposed to facts, members could remain in our reality yet seek beyond our understanding without making fools of themselves to the scientific community and the world in general! They could work with the sciences as opposed to battling it!
Mormon leaderships failure to comprehend its own doctrine, such as becoming gods, and thus moving away from it makes them look like someone stepped in something and tracked it into the house! It stinks, its not desired and needs to be cleaned up with as little attention as possible! Were Mormonism to drop it "only true church" claim, it could help more people with less BS. I don't see that as likely! It's like the Social Security system promised us retirement funds for paying in all these years. Many people received funds from it paying little or nothing in. Now its our turn to receive and the Govt. speaks of insolvency, which was never an option as we were lead along, it was always backed by the strength of the U.S. Govt. Using this metaphor toward Mormonism, there have been promises made to its members, sacrifices paid and when the reward becomes watered down such as the current leaders no longer make the claim members are gods in embryo, the psychological loss can cause a crack up in the memberships identity! The gold turns to ashes and their lifes ambition crumbles before them! Don't you think the members deserve something more rewarding?
As a NeverMo, I like how Joseph was so creative, imagining a totally new thing, Jews going to the Americas, Heavenly Mother, Freemasonry, treasure digging, the golden pot, polygamy, Kolob, God having a body, etc. Other churches, e.g. Jehovah's witnesses, are much less creative and only tweak the existing scriptures. That is why, Mormonism is my favorite high demand religion. For some time, I dabbled in scientology, which is even weirder, but that one is too cruel and over-demanding to be successful.
Some hymns need to be changed. Too solemn. Other songs that are annoying: Follow the Prophet.
Some hymns need to be changed???? Name one good LDS song. They all suck.
What I'm hearing is: "Keep Mormonism weird" but change it to be completely different than leaders will ever, EVER allow. Additionally, what is intriguing and entertaining to an outsider looking in, is extremely damaging to those who actually live in it. Booklearning is NOT the same as brute lived experience. One more gay child that I'm aware of just died by suicide the day after this most recent General Conference. This church isn't a safe place, as entertaining as it may seem to non-mormons.
Get rid of Moroni's horn and replace it with a cross......
I wonder if Steven knows the atonement is in 2 parts. I haven't heard anything about that. Heck, does John even know! I kinda doubt it
The e only consulting that should be done for the Mormon church is to advise it to shut all of its doors forever, since it's heresy.
What's wrong in believing we have a Mother in Heaven??? Where do the women go if we don't??? Does that mean we have what God doesn't?? A love of our life??
Oh Samuel...you are lost beyond lost...
Where do the women go???????
Every man and woman has free will on Earth to believe in Jesus. It has nothing to do with sex. Women aren't dependent upon men to get to heaven 😅.
Why doesn't God have "a love of his life?" Father God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are the trinity. They have each other.
Your comment scares me because you are so "out of it".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we are 88 times smaller than the Catholic Church and 4 times more wealthy.
Because people stupidly believe that their salvation is dependent upon their tithing.
The LDS church is DYING. I used to live in Utah for several years. People are leaving in DROVES. The numbers (in the LDS church) are false. There are not that many members at all. When people try to remove themselves as a member of the church, the church won't take them off the "list".
Steve is a "believer of Jesus" and His truth, but then gives himself permission to suggest that Mormons should pick and choose what to believe. Make it weird? Also, he suggests Mormons should copy the mega churches everywhere that focus on entertaining ppl. I'm confused. Does that mean Steve believes there is no ultimate truth? it's up to us?
my bible says about church wealth that the original *authentic) Holy Spirit guided church had ALL THINGS IN COMMON Uder the threat f death...was it Elvira. that died for lying about her
and her husband with)?. The Apostles were the custodians of that wealth...Ic all that "commonism". lol
Maybe the next episode will be a ridiculous uninvited consultation of how the MARVEL comic books could follow this guy's favored myths...
Where is Carah when we need someone to keep the conversation above a preschool fantasy level?
YES! This whole conversation didn’t sit well with me and I made a long comment above, but you articulated what I am feeling very succintly, thank you 🙏 And caffeine rules 😂😂😂
my bible says about church wealth that the original *authentic) Holy Spirit guided church had ALL THINGS IN COMMON Uder the threat f death...was it Elvira. that died for lying about her
and her husband with)?. The Apostles were the custodians of that wealth...Ic all that "commonism". lol