Debate 1 (02 SEP 2010) - Part 11
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2010
- This was the first debate the UNCG Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics have been involved with, and the first religious debate at UNCG to my knowledge.
Topic: "Does the Christian god exist?"
The sides:
Shepard's Fellowship of Greensboro
A Sovereign Grace Baptist Church
- Sye Ten Bruggencate
- Pastor Dustin Segers
www.sfofgso.org/
UNCG Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics
- Joshua Deaton
- Phillip Drum
The debate was moderated by Pastor Sterling J VanDerwerker
@math The Laws are not an attribute of the universe I allready refuited your claim you havent responded to. So unchanging/absolute Laws come from changing matter in motion? The Laws of Logic deal with conceptual truth statements, not actions(the laws of physics). We observe at Quantum level a particle spinning clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time "violating" the Laws of Logic, so are they still absolute then? How do you explain these Laws still applying if the universe didnt exist?
@mathmexican4234 So unchanging/absolute Laws come from changing matter in motion? The Laws of Logic deal with conceptual truth statements, not actions(the laws of physics). We observe at Quantum level a particle spinning clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time "violating" the Laws of Logic, so are they still absolute then? How do you explain these Laws still applying if the universe didnt exist? This is the absurdity of not having a transcendental foundation to ground these Laws aka God.
@JesusforLife2 Wait... so you said the laws of logic are violated by particles yet absolute because they are based on your god? which is it?
@mathmexican4234 Universal meaning they apply everywhere - omnipresent, Unchanging meaning having a perfect mind that knows all - omniscient, and having the power to force these Laws on Natural existence - omnipotent. Its not just a book. Its a collection of 66 books by 45 authors over 4000 years in different geographical locations. It was written by God through holy men of old and ocntains 100% prophetic fulfillment.
@mathmexican4234 Since they are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent they are God by definition. Nice to see you are a theist now and got rid of your irrational atheism, its a step.
@JesusforLife2 When did I say they were omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent? All I said was that they are the source of logic and transcendent. All you have done is assert things about your god. What reason do you have to think your god exists and has those attributes?
Justifying logic with the christian god is no different than justifying it with an invisible 90 foot tall purple grasshopper, you still have to prove the grasshopper exists. Or you can just presuppose the grasshopper exists, and say that unless you do your worldview is absurd and you're going to hell.
@mathmexican4234 Being the three O's is a requirement to ground these Laws, since they are universal, unchanging, and applied to Natural existence. If they dont have these attributes they are not the source of Logic. The Bible is how I know God's attributes and is my ultimate authority.
@mathmexica If they arent everywhere they are not universal and fail to ground the universal Laws of Logic. Omniscience is required to know what is right and what is wrong out of everything that could be possibly known. Since they are not omniscient and omnipresent as you claim, they dont know that the Laws are universal and unchanging and could be broken somewhere. Forcing Natural existence to be subjected to the Laws of Logic requires omnipotence. Yep, because the historic events are accurate.
@JesusforLife2 Um no they don't need the three Os. The laws can be universal, unchanging, and apply to natural existence, but the pixies are outside the universe, thus transcend the universe and they are the source of these. This in no way necessitates that they must also know everything, be everywhere, or be all powerful. That is just your assertion. Give a reason WHY those attributes are necessary, don't just state it.
And like I said, you are just getting your god as a character from a book
I find it hard to debate with theist. Normal people would base their belief from the facts and logic given. Theist creates facts and logic to conform to their belief. And if all fails: God did it. The Devil did it, or we're to dumb to understand God.
@mathmexican4234 The Laws of Logic dont get "created". They have existed for all eternity being part of God's eternal nature.
@mathmexican4234 No I was using your irrational belief that the changing universe grounds absolute and unchanging laws and gave an example where that couldnt be the case with Quantum Mechanics. The real problem here is you say pixies are the source of logic then say the universe is the source of logic. Which one is it? If its the pixies they have to be the three O's, if its the universe they arent absolute.
I would have just said that absolute laws of logic exist and are just the nature of the universe as we can see from our experience. No god is necessary for that. Then we can get rid of that stupid response to cop out of answering questions.
@mathmexican4234 The funny thing is, you are acknowledging a God (transcendent, eternal, etc) refuting yourself and your atheistic stance. Thanks for proving my point that God is necessary to ground these Laws while the atheistic worldview cannot. Heres a link showing more atheists refuting themselves with this argument watch?v=sCUE10dY3Rc
@mathmexican4234 So the Christian God is a copy of the pixie's attributes? As I said, thanks for showing a God is necessary and fail to defend your own self-refuting worldview. I find it odd you are an atheist yet believe in a God, paradox?
@JesusforLife2 The space pixies aren't universal they are outside it, the laws of logic are. They don't need to know what is right and wrong. They don't need to know the laws are universal. You are misunderstanding how the laws work. The laws cannot be broken because it is an attribute of the universe and anything inside can't break it, this all is based on the pixies which are outside the universe.
And I'm sorry you think all heresay about historic events is accurate.
@JesusforLife2 lol um, no. It's obvious the Laws of Logic are grounded on a race of magical logic creating space pixies. I have no idea where you are getting this absurd 'God' hypothesis. Some of us don't like to just assert entities to solve a problem.
@JesusforLife2 Um no. YOU have falsely given some attributes of space pixies to some god WHICH YOU HAVE YET TO PROVE EXISTS. You have yet to get past asserting your character is necessary without any reason.
I just stated what I would do if I was in those atheists position, as you can see my position is clearly different. You have proven space pixies for me, acknowledging that they have to exist to ground these laws. I find it funny that you can't refute anything I said about space pixies.
@mathmexican4234 The only thing absurd is atheists believing Logic isnt absolute and have no epistemic justification for them asserting they "just are" which begs the question. You cant defend your stance so you dodge the questions completely and go straight to ad hominems. Repent sinner, sin has corrupted your mind and Jesus loves you enough to willingly she dhis blood for you. All he requires is your repentance and faith, you are not ready to die.
@JesusforLife2 The laws apply everywhere, the pixies aren't everywhere. How the hell does the laws being unchanging make my pixies have to have a perfect mind that knows everything? That's a giant leap without basis. And yes they have the power to have these laws govern the universe, but that doesn't mean they have other powers.
So you are getting your info from heresay of 45 authors, asserting that your god inspired them, and accepting the events it says happened and they predicted them? nice
@JesusforLife2 There you go again. Asserting they are the nature of this God character. Why must you deny the fact that the space pixies nature is the source of logic? Why do you hate space pixies? You just want to live your life of greed and not give all your money to me like they command.