Debate 1 (02 SEP 2010) - Part 10
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2010
- This was the first debate the UNCG Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics have been involved with, and the first religious debate at UNCG to my knowledge.
Topic: "Does the Christian god exist?"
The sides:
Shepard's Fellowship of Greensboro
A Sovereign Grace Baptist Church
- Sye Ten Bruggencate
- Pastor Dustin Segers
www.sfofgso.org/
UNCG Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics
- Joshua Deaton
- Phillip Drum
The debate was moderated by Pastor Sterling J VanDerwerker
@scotbrandon your premise comes down to "The universe has always existed"
o really? how did you arrive at that?
@actionjackson864 You're convoluting the argument. You said a page back and I quote "scientists and atheists alike believe that the cosmos have always existed."
@scotbrandon **the blunder I am referring to is that "the molecules are slowing down/ thermodynamic etc." point that you raised. also and yet again, you will not address any of the points I bring up! lol you just keep with the assertions.
@actionjackson864 your premise comes down to "The universe has always existed"
This goes against the second law of thermodynamics that shows evidence of molecules and energy is slowing down. Therefore, if this universe was eternal we would be in a virtual heat death: Meaning there would be virtually no molecular movement, everything would of lost its available heat energy doing work. Therefore the universe must have had an beginning.
@scotbrandon did Allah "split the moon" as witnessed by thousands? or not?
@scotbrandon you are completely leaving out multiverse theory and the cosmos. care to cite your sources?
So the guys on the left think a frog really can become a prince given enough time.
@actionjackson864 2) The universe has always existed: This goes against the second law of thermodynamics that shows evidence of molecules and energy is slowing down. Therefore, if this universe was eternal we would be in a virtual heat death: Meaning there would be virtually no molecular movement, everything would of lost its available heat energy doing work. Therefore the universe must have had an beginning.
@actionjackson864 how did I twist your words into a straw man argument? Did you learn a new term and don't know how to use it? Sounds like it. You said the universe always existed. I just pointed out this goes against the second law of thermodynamics. Why the red herring about sources to cite? Is it because I quoted your premise is "the universe always existed" isn't that what you were saying? Or does the universe have a beginning?
@actionjackson864 In Webster’s truth is defined as the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts. cont..
@scotbrandon thanks for quoting me correctly! now we're getting somewhere! ; ] the cosmos is not the universe. hence, UNI-verse is ONE universe, a MULTI-verse means more that one. lol and the cosmos, refers to EVERYTHING. our universe is like an atom compared to the cosmos.
@actionjackson864-you argued that the universe always existed. I pointed out the 2nd law of Thermodynamic dispelled that...what other argument do you have? You can't tell me where the matter came from that produced the big bang with the atheistic evolutionist theory, that's not a straw man arguement, that's a fact.
@JesusforLife2
Just because the laws of logic were created by humans doesn't mean they can't be absolute. Abstract ideas like logic can be absolute within the constraints of nature without a divine creator.
Now as to whether humans always use logic properly, that's a completely different issue.
@actionjackson864 Those are the only possibilities to where the matter came from... to deny it is to be illogical and irrational because the first two possibilities are not possible according to universal laws of science and logic.
To argue against it is sort of like arguing that 2+2 doesn't equal 4. There is only one right answer to what 2+2 equals. If something is true your beliefs do not change the truth. If you believe 2+2 equals anything but four you would be wrong.
@scotbrandon god is not bound by the laws of the universe? can god be god and not god at the same time and in the same sense? is god logical? lol
@actionjackson864 3) The universe was created
This is the only possibility because the other two possibilities not possible based on the laws of science and logic.
Conclusion: It is logical and reasonable to believe that God, not unknown magical events, created the universe.
@scotbrandon "how did I twist your words into a straw man argument?" you did this many times, originally with evolution and the "frog prince" ,secondly when you said "Is it because I quoted your premise is "the universe always existed"" I never said "the universe always existed." I said the multiverse and the cosmos [ i.e energy and matter ] have always existed. I wanted to know ur sources b/c I suspect you are making things up. you still have yet to deal with any of the arguments I presented.
I was there...Total cluster on the churchmen's part...wait till he gets to the word salad involving penguins.
@scotbrandon "this is your rock solid evidence?" Im not talking about evidence, Im refuting your claim that the universe is slowing down and that "those are the only possibities where matter came from" obviously they are not the only possiblities and you were incorrect about the slowing down. will you answer this question: Can something exist without a first cause?
@scotbrandon also, you did not address anything in my last comment. you just throw out new uncited assertions.
@scotbrandon again, I never said "the universe always existed" you are making up my argument with things I never said. also, Michio Kaku explains that the molecules are not slowing down but are speeding up, and that all the textbooks are being re written, did you watch the video? you are creating arguments that I never claimed were true. yes the universe had a beginning, but you are leaving out that there was a time that was before the beginning, i.e. the multiverse and the cosmos.
@scotbrandon "Those are the only possibilities to where the matter came from... to deny it is to be illogical and irrational because the first two possibilities are not possible according to universal laws of science and logic." lol ok well can something exist without a first cause?...or not?
I don't think the atheists did a particularly good job in this debate but I give them credit for trying. We all can't be a eloquent as Hitchens or Harris. But I almost fell off my chair when that silly christian talked about dinosaurs and humans living together. Seriously? I mean....... WOW !!!!
@actionjackson864 You said “ to answer the question "where did the matter come from that created the big bang?" is to answer the question "where did god come from?"
Actually, you have 3 options, I'll unpack it for you.
1) The universe created itself: This view is flawed and here is why. It goes against the science of cause of effect where the effect is never greater than the cause. Therefore, nothing creating something is scientifically impossible.
OMG...... he thinks dinosaurs and humans co-existed.... OMG....
@actionjackson864 You said, "Sye just sounds silly. I cant believe people really believe in fairy tales as though they are REAL." Actually, if your an atheist evolutionist you would believe that a frog became prince after enough time. You have a miracle with without a miracle maker.... an atheist evolutionist, believes nothing made everything, which is scientifically impossible.
@actionjackson864 Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin on the cross with His own blood. Then Jesus Christ died and rose again proving that God accepted His sacrifice for sin on our behalf. It is up to you to either accept that as true or remain ignorant and reject it. May you make the right choice because just like the law of gravity is testable and provable…when you die and stand before God you will see the truth even if you deny it now.
@actionjackson864 If I tell you that law of gravity is true, it is up to you to either accept that truth and stay clear and cautious around cliffs, and falling objects or remain ignorant of that truth and ignore it. However, you choice has no bearing on the truth of the law of gravity. In the same way when I tell you that mankind is sinful and needs a Savior and God sent His One and only Son as a substitute and ransom for the world. cont...
@actionjackson864 one more thing you said, "faith based gods have a %0 historical truth rate." Well you have a historical Jesus Christ who was publicly executed (sort of like someone given the electric chair in our times) come back from dead. Seen by over 500 witness and has 12 apostles who follow him unto death proclaim the truth and witnessing to what they saw. They were beaten, imprisoned and killed for testifying to what they saw. If you could erase all that you might have a point.
@scotbrandon contd...its like when people believed thor was responsible for lightning. turns out, there was a scientific explanation. what makes you think there isnt one for the origin of life? throughout history, a god or gods have never been the truth they claimed to be. gods only fill in gaps. now, evolution is fact, but its being shrouded in creationist lies. even Christian Apologists Dinesh Dsouza and William Lane Craig believe in evolution. even the catholic church accepts evolution(contd)
@actionjackson864 You say everything in science is testable. Well origin of life is not testable and is not science. You leave the realm of science and enter into the realm of faith. To have a big bang you have to have matter. Where did the matter come from that created the big bang? Science can not answer this question
Sye just sounds silly. I cant believe people really believe in fairy tales as though they are REAL.
@scotbrandon you wnt address anything I bring up, I addressed everything u presented. haha
@scotbrandon no sources to cite? ok well here's mine "Michio Kaku Multiverse Theory" get with the times man, and quit twisting my words into straw man arguments. the molecules are not slowing down. haha!
@scotbrandon are they the only possiblity because you say so? sounds like it, as I do not agree with anything that you have presented, yet you claim I am presenting this, I am not . Your conclusion is not rational because it is not based on existence. it is faith based and anyone can make up a faith based claim and say that its the only way possible for anything. problem is, faith has a %0 historical track record. ; ]
@scotbrandon its a free country so you dont have to believe the big bang if you dont want to. but you can see pictures of the actual big bang on nasa.gov. to answer the question "where did the matter come from that created the big bang?" is to answer the question "where did god come from?" causeless. the origin of life is testable, who are you to say science has reached a dead end? you obviously are WAY out of the loop when it comes to science. think of what you are asking...its like. (contd)
@scotbrandon eye witness claims prove something is true? hmm..."Muhammad’s great miracles were witnessed by thousands of believers and skeptics, following which verses of the Quran were revealed mentioning the supernatural events. The Quran made some miracles eternal by etching them in the conscious of the believers. The ancient detractors would simply remain silent when these verses were recited. " lol I refuted everything u brought to the table then u went into a witnessing hissy fit.
@actionjackson864 You have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. Your question is absurd because it compares God with nothing. God is outside of time, space, matter, He has created those things out of nothing and is not bound to the laws of the universe He created..
@scotbrandon yeah yeah, you wont answer the question and u didnt address anything I brought up. I was raised in a christian home, I knw the story I know the bible inside and out. you witnessing to me is completely off topic. I can see the effects of gravity. I see no reason watsoever to believe in a god, again faith based gods have a %0 historical truth rate.
@scotbrandon theres a "historical jesus"? apparrently there's a "historical muhammad" too, do you think muhammad really existed? do you think that "thousands witnessed" the miracles he performed? haha
so you believe dino's walked with man? HAHA!!
@scotbrandon "Prophet Muhammad performed many physical miracles witnessed by his contemporaries numbering in hundreds, and in some cases thousands." islamreligion. com/articles/150/viewall/
I think there are many muslims who would disagree with you. lol
@scotbrandon you are making assertions about evolution that are not true. straw man fallacy.
"an atheist evolutionist, believes nothing made everything, which is scientifically impossible. " incorrect. scientists and atheists alike believe that the cosmos have always existed in a multiverse. can something exist without a first cause? if you believe in god, you answer yes to this. we believe the same. that the cosmos do not have a first cause. you are misrepresenting evolution.
@scotbrandon keep on believing that god exists because there are mysteries in the universe..well, god has never been the answer to anything! Genesis is debunked with evolution...wats next?