Why the Gospels Are Myth: The Evidence of Genre and Content
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- Опубликовано: 11 апр 2013
- Esoteric Biblical Scholarship @22:38
Original video Reposted from Triangle Freethought Society and trimmed
www.trianglefreethoughtsociety...
www.trianglefreethoughtsociety...
Richard Carrier is a world-renowned author and speaker. As a professional historian, published philosopher, and prominent defender of the American freethought movement, Dr. Carrier has appeared across the country and on national television defending sound historical methods and the ethical worldview of secular naturalism. His books and articles have also received international attention. He holds a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history, specializing in the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, particularly ancient philosophy, religion, and science, with emphasis on the origins of Christianity and the use and progress of science under the Roman empire. He is best known as the author of Sense and Goodness without God, Not the Impossible Faith, and Why I Am Not a Christian, and a major contributor to The Empty Tomb, The Christian Delusion, The End of Christianity, and Sources of the Jesus Tradition, as well as writer and editor-in-chief (now emeritus) for the Secular Web, and for his copious work in history and philosophy online and in print. His latest book is Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus. He is currently working on his next books, On the Historicity of Jesus Christ, The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire, and Science Education in the Early Roman Empire.
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Came for the skeptic's evidence, stayed for the literary scholarship. I guess the purpose of this lecture was to advance atheism or whatever, but Carrier communicates the beauty of the literary forms, and conveys how and why they functioned for the writers and their audiences.
He suggests some books starting about 3:30, which I rewound a couple of times to write down titles:
• Cameron, "The Greek Mythography and the Roman World"
• Edmonds, "Myths of the Underworld Journey"
• Crossan, "The Power of Parable"
• Miller, "The Ascension Mythotype" (he cites it a little later)
Crossan on parables isn't taken all that seriously.
Except nothing like literary dependency is DEMONSTRATED, his conjectures are just allusions by hypothetical analogy---then you are supposed to fill in the missing links.
The real reason most historians do not agree with him has to do with his methodology of erroneous emphases and crackpot use of probability theory!😅
@@jamesbarlow6423
Brothers, what have we done. look at us. look at what we've become. This isn't right. we're wasting time going on about girls and sus drawings that don't give a f*ck about us. What is the point of lust? Why do we do this? This doesn't fix our problems, doesn't make the stress and pain go away.
Ayo I don’t mean to force anything on anyone, but we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested (read on)
repent to God, friends. We must stay focused, brothers, on what really matters. I'm only 17, but I'm telling you, in the words of johnny cash, "sooner or later God will cut you down."
you will lose almost everything important to you. please, for your sakes, repent and turn to Jesus. He is, in the words of Skillet, "better than drugs." He is also better than lust. love > lust. You'll find out that this is true. love may hurt, and same for lust, but lust will keep you chained down, eventually killing you mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and possibly physically.
hell was never meant for us, my fellow youtube user. it was for the devil and his squad, and God gave us the Way out of there since we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God knew we were wack, but He decided He was still come down and help us, despite our unfaithfulness. most relationships (like friendships, romantic relationships) aren't like this. Very few, but not a whole lot.
religion (Christianity) is just a relationship with God along with loving others (see james 1:27)
also, we have various types of evidence that backs up the Bible.
Here's one example: Scientists have discovered that the earth "skipped" a day.
The Bible explains how that happened. In the book of Joshua, Joshua asked the sun to stop so he and the Israelites could defeat their enemies. Then in 2 Kings, King Hezekiah learned he was dying, and pleaded to God to not let him die. God sent a prophet to king hezekiah who said hezekiah would live. Hezekiah wanted a sign, and that would be for the sun to defy the law of inertia and go back 10 degrees. NASA confirmed it and did the math (look it up for more info).
We also found Noah’s Ark hanging out in turkey, along with anchor stones marked with crosses signifying that it’s a revered place, along with altars and many other things. Look it up, it’s good stuff.
more evidence for the Bible concerning cosmology and divine revelation in job 26:7, proverbs 8:27, Isaiah 40:22 (read on)
The idea that the earth was round can be dated back to 600 BC in Greece. It was more widely accepted around the 3rd century (300 BC-201 BC) Note: time was “labeled” differently back then. for example, year 3000, year 420, year 69, year 0, year 1, year 2… and so on.
Job 26:7: “. . .He [God] hangs the earth on nothing” The book of Job was supposedly written at 2100 BC.
Proverbs 8:27: “. . .when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. . .” Proverbs was possibly written between 970 and 686 BC
Isaiah 40:22: “it is He who sits above the circles of the earth. . .” Isaiah was written between 739 and 680 BC.
How did they know about this? You tell me, my fellow Zoomerz.
The Holy Spirit exists. I was a slave to s3xual sin for 7-ish d@mn years. Finally at 16, God freed me. Also, look up John Gabbana's (boonk gang) testimony. Dude did a lot of wacky stuff. He's changed now.
also, the soul exists. someone i know (i won't say who- privacy reasons) saw their soul leaving their body. like pulling off a band-aid, except it doesn't hurt.
I was suicidal for 9-ish months, but then I read John 3:16, and poof- the big sad went away in one night.
There are also non-Christian sources who have confirmed the existence and divinity of Jesus, some of which were hostile towards Christianity, such as:
Thallus (52 AD), who said Jesus lived, was crucified, and confirmed the darkness and earthquake that followed Christ’s crucifixion;
Tacitus (56-120 AD), who called the followers of Christ Christians, confirmed that Jesus was crucified under Pontus Pilate’s command
Talmud (400-700 AD), confirmed that the disciples were martyred for their faith, and confirmed Jesus was executed the day before the Passover, and said Jesus had “magical” powers
Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD), who said that the Christians thought Jesus was/is God in the Flesh (God the Son)
Phlegon (80-140 AD), who said Jesus had the ability to predict the future, and confirmed that Jesus was crucified during Caesar’s reign, confirmed Jesus rose from the dead, and confirmed He showed His wounds to confirm He was crucified.
Celcus (175 AD), who said Jesus was born of a virgin, said His father is a carpenter, and confirmed Jesus had miraculous powers
(See cold-case Christianity for more details)
Here’s the physical evidence of Jesus and His Resurrection:
1) No persecution would have started if He hadn’t come back (the disciples thought Jesus would never resurrect)
2) The Roman soldiers would have paid with their lives if they failed at their jobs
3) there was a 2-4 ton rock that 11-12 guys would have to move (they didn’t have any help. Everyone said “crucify Him”) major L to those opposed to Jesus
4) there was a Roman seal which was a metal pin that sealed the tomb stone
5) Stealing the Jesus’s body isn’t something the disciples would do (besides Judas. Although he hung himself after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus).
6) the disciples wouldn’t die for what they knew would be a lie. (The lie being Jesus never made the ultimate comeback)
faith and reason, people
hit me up to learn more about how science proves the Bible or just about God in general
@@spider-man9118If God were loving, He would communicate with us via a channel that is obviously communication from Him, instead of a 2000 year old collection of books written and copied by self-interested humans.
I see that the "physical evidence" at the end of your comment presupposes that the Bible is true, which is what you set out to prove.
I never realized how much the Bible was written in such a formulated literary way. I think Christian's take notice of the parallels as proof something amazing that is happening that is only further proving this is some one of a kind thing happening and therefore to be believed.
Brothers, what have we done. look at us. look at what we've become. This isn't right. we're wasting time going on about girls and sus drawings that don't give a f*ck about us. What is the point of lust? Why do we do this? This doesn't fix our problems, doesn't make the stress and pain go away.
Ayo I don’t mean to force anything on anyone, but we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested (read on)
repent to God, friends. We must stay focused, brothers, on what really matters. I'm only 17, but I'm telling you, in the words of johnny cash, "sooner or later God will cut you down."
you will lose almost everything important to you. please, for your sakes, repent and turn to Jesus. He is, in the words of Skillet, "better than drugs." He is also better than lust. love > lust. You'll find out that this is true. love may hurt, and same for lust, but lust will keep you chained down, eventually killing you mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and possibly physically.
hell was never meant for us, my fellow youtube user. it was for the devil and his squad, and God gave us the Way out of there since we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God knew we were wack, but He decided He was still come down and help us, despite our unfaithfulness. most relationships (like friendships, romantic relationships) aren't like this. Very few, but not a whole lot.
religion (Christianity) is just a relationship with God along with loving others (see james 1:27)
also, we have various types of evidence that backs up the Bible.
Here's one example: Scientists have discovered that the earth "skipped" a day.
The Bible explains how that happened. In the book of Joshua, Joshua asked the sun to stop so he and the Israelites could defeat their enemies. Then in 2 Kings, King Hezekiah learned he was dying, and pleaded to God to not let him die. God sent a prophet to king hezekiah who said hezekiah would live. Hezekiah wanted a sign, and that would be for the sun to defy the law of inertia and go back 10 degrees. NASA confirmed it and did the math (look it up for more info).
We also found Noah’s Ark hanging out in turkey, along with anchor stones marked with crosses signifying that it’s a revered place, along with altars and many other things. Look it up, it’s good stuff.
more evidence for the Bible concerning cosmology and divine revelation in job 26:7, proverbs 8:27, Isaiah 40:22 (read on)
The idea that the earth was round can be dated back to 600 BC in Greece. It was more widely accepted around the 3rd century (300 BC-201 BC) Note: time was “labeled” differently back then. for example, year 3000, year 420, year 69, year 0, year 1, year 2… and so on.
Job 26:7: “. . .He [God] hangs the earth on nothing” The book of Job was supposedly written at 2100 BC.
Proverbs 8:27: “. . .when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. . .” Proverbs was possibly written between 970 and 686 BC
Isaiah 40:22: “it is He who sits above the circles of the earth. . .” Isaiah was written between 739 and 680 BC.
How did they know about this? You tell me, my fellow Zoomerz.
The Holy Spirit exists. I was a slave to s3xual sin for 7-ish d@mn years. Finally at 16, God freed me. Also, look up John Gabbana's (boonk gang) testimony. Dude did a lot of wacky stuff. He's changed now.
also, the soul exists. someone i know (i won't say who- privacy reasons) saw their soul leaving their body. like pulling off a band-aid, except it doesn't hurt.
I was suicidal for 9-ish months, but then I read John 3:16, and poof- the big sad went away in one night.
There are also non-Christian sources who have confirmed the existence and divinity of Jesus, some of which were hostile towards Christianity, such as:
Thallus (52 AD), who said Jesus lived, was crucified, and confirmed the darkness and earthquake that followed Christ’s crucifixion;
Tacitus (56-120 AD), who called the followers of Christ Christians, confirmed that Jesus was crucified under Pontus Pilate’s command
Talmud (400-700 AD), confirmed that the disciples were martyred for their faith, and confirmed Jesus was executed the day before the Passover, and said Jesus had “magical” powers
Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD), who said that the Christians thought Jesus was/is God in the Flesh (God the Son)
Phlegon (80-140 AD), who said Jesus had the ability to predict the future, and confirmed that Jesus was crucified during Caesar’s reign, confirmed Jesus rose from the dead, and confirmed He showed His wounds to confirm He was crucified.
Celcus (175 AD), who said Jesus was born of a virgin, said His father is a carpenter, and confirmed Jesus had miraculous powers
(See cold-case Christianity for more details)
Here’s the physical evidence of Jesus and His Resurrection:
1) No persecution would have started if He hadn’t come back (the disciples thought Jesus would never resurrect)
2) The Roman soldiers would have paid with their lives if they failed at their jobs
3) there was a 2-4 ton rock that 11-12 guys would have to move (they didn’t have any help. Everyone said “crucify Him”) major L to those opposed to Jesus
4) there was a Roman seal which was a metal pin that sealed the tomb stone
5) Stealing the Jesus’s body isn’t something the disciples would do (besides Judas. Although he hung himself after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus).
6) the disciples wouldn’t die for what they knew would be a lie. (The lie being Jesus never made the ultimate comeback)
faith and reason, people
hit me up to learn more about how science proves the Bible or just about God in general
240p, we meet again.
This comment made my morning
Thanks for the upload, I really enjoyed the technical literary analysis of the Gospels.
Carrier doesn't do that. Superficiality us his forté
Brothers, what have we done. look at us. look at what we've become. This isn't right. we're wasting time going on about girls and sus drawings that don't give a f*ck about us. What is the point of lust? Why do we do this? This doesn't fix our problems, doesn't make the stress and pain go away.
Ayo I don’t mean to force anything on anyone, but we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested (read on)
repent to God, friends. We must stay focused, brothers, on what really matters. I'm only 17, but I'm telling you, in the words of johnny cash, "sooner or later God will cut you down."
you will lose almost everything important to you. please, for your sakes, repent and turn to Jesus. He is, in the words of Skillet, "better than drugs." He is also better than lust. love > lust. You'll find out that this is true. love may hurt, and same for lust, but lust will keep you chained down, eventually killing you mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and possibly physically.
hell was never meant for us, my fellow youtube user. it was for the devil and his squad, and God gave us the Way out of there since we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God knew we were wack, but He decided He was still come down and help us, despite our unfaithfulness. most relationships (like friendships, romantic relationships) aren't like this. Very few, but not a whole lot.
religion (Christianity) is just a relationship with God along with loving others (see james 1:27)
also, we have various types of evidence that backs up the Bible.
Here's one example: Scientists have discovered that the earth "skipped" a day.
The Bible explains how that happened. In the book of Joshua, Joshua asked the sun to stop so he and the Israelites could defeat their enemies. Then in 2 Kings, King Hezekiah learned he was dying, and pleaded to God to not let him die. God sent a prophet to king hezekiah who said hezekiah would live. Hezekiah wanted a sign, and that would be for the sun to defy the law of inertia and go back 10 degrees. NASA confirmed it and did the math (look it up for more info).
We also found Noah’s Ark hanging out in turkey, along with anchor stones marked with crosses signifying that it’s a revered place, along with altars and many other things. Look it up, it’s good stuff.
more evidence for the Bible concerning cosmology and divine revelation in job 26:7, proverbs 8:27, Isaiah 40:22 (read on)
The idea that the earth was round can be dated back to 600 BC in Greece. It was more widely accepted around the 3rd century (300 BC-201 BC) Note: time was “labeled” differently back then. for example, year 3000, year 420, year 69, year 0, year 1, year 2… and so on.
Job 26:7: “. . .He [God] hangs the earth on nothing” The book of Job was supposedly written at 2100 BC.
Proverbs 8:27: “. . .when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. . .” Proverbs was possibly written between 970 and 686 BC
Isaiah 40:22: “it is He who sits above the circles of the earth. . .” Isaiah was written between 739 and 680 BC.
How did they know about this? You tell me, my fellow Zoomerz.
The Holy Spirit exists. I was a slave to s3xual sin for 7-ish d@mn years. Finally at 16, God freed me. Also, look up John Gabbana's (boonk gang) testimony. Dude did a lot of wacky stuff. He's changed now.
also, the soul exists. someone i know (i won't say who- privacy reasons) saw their soul leaving their body. like pulling off a band-aid, except it doesn't hurt.
I was suicidal for 9-ish months, but then I read John 3:16, and poof- the big sad went away in one night.
There are also non-Christian sources who have confirmed the existence and divinity of Jesus, some of which were hostile towards Christianity, such as:
Thallus (52 AD), who said Jesus lived, was crucified, and confirmed the darkness and earthquake that followed Christ’s crucifixion;
Tacitus (56-120 AD), who called the followers of Christ Christians, confirmed that Jesus was crucified under Pontus Pilate’s command
Talmud (400-700 AD), confirmed that the disciples were martyred for their faith, and confirmed Jesus was executed the day before the Passover, and said Jesus had “magical” powers
Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD), who said that the Christians thought Jesus was/is God in the Flesh (God the Son)
Phlegon (80-140 AD), who said Jesus had the ability to predict the future, and confirmed that Jesus was crucified during Caesar’s reign, confirmed Jesus rose from the dead, and confirmed He showed His wounds to confirm He was crucified.
Celcus (175 AD), who said Jesus was born of a virgin, said His father is a carpenter, and confirmed Jesus had miraculous powers
(See cold-case Christianity for more details)
Here’s the physical evidence of Jesus and His Resurrection:
1) No persecution would have started if He hadn’t come back (the disciples thought Jesus would never resurrect)
2) The Roman soldiers would have paid with their lives if they failed at their jobs
3) there was a 2-4 ton rock that 11-12 guys would have to move (they didn’t have any help. Everyone said “crucify Him”) major L to those opposed to Jesus
4) there was a Roman seal which was a metal pin that sealed the tomb stone
5) Stealing the Jesus’s body isn’t something the disciples would do (besides Judas. Although he hung himself after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus).
6) the disciples wouldn’t die for what they knew would be a lie. (The lie being Jesus never made the ultimate comeback)
faith and reason, people
hit me up to learn more about how science proves the Bible or just about God in general
Great stuff. I’ve watched a lot of Carrier's talks, & this one is quite different.
Albino do u miss me 🪘
@@ima1sthumanonearth8*Albino*? What is that referring to? 🤔
The Audio on this video is poor. Is the content available in a similar, better-audio video?
Is there a good book that outlines the Inclusio structure of Mark (or Mathew)?
I remember seeing another video of him doing a presentation very much like this one, on myths, mark, chiasmus, etc. but can't remember what it was. Want to share this topic and don't know if this presentation or the other one is better. I can't find the other one though... -_-
As an atheist I now find the New Testament less stupid than I thought
Dr Carrier is always worth listening to - a very enlightening talk!
No he's not.
He really is. :)
@@proudfootz . You must not know the field very well. There are reasons why he's not teaching anywhere except at atheist beerhalls!
@@jamesbarlow6423 - I've studied under one of the leading 'real Jesus' scholars from the famous Jesus Seminar, so your assumption is just plain false.
@@proudfootz . The Jesus Seminar is full of axegrinding apologists. Their published "belief" in GThomas is a total outlier. No one takes them seriously any more. Which one?
They never noticed that they had the wrong microphone on.
at 29.55 what is the graph called?
From what I can see, there's more historical evidence for King Arthur than there is for Jesus, but I have no problem admitting that I DON'T KNOW.
Actually plenty of ancient sources exist for Jesus Christ existing. Some are direct references and others are indirect.
You only need to read a little deeper to form an opinion, that's all you can do. Have a go at this:
vridar.org/other-authors/earl-dohertys-response-to-bart-ehrmans-did-jesus-exist/
I was under the impression that there is actually less evidence for King Arthur; I heard (though I as well don't know for sure by any means) that there was pretty much NO evidence what-so-ever for King Arthur. Which was somewhat disappointing
@@jrg7951 there are direct and indirect reference also to other mythical characters such as Achilles. Doesn't prove their existence.
He Can't😂
There is an excellent treatment of this very subject "Hebrew Myths" by Robert Graves and Raphael Patat. It is an in depth evaluation of the Book of Genesis; published in 1964.
Brothers, what have we done. look at us. look at what we've become. This isn't right. we're wasting time going on about girls and sus drawings that don't give a f*ck about us. What is the point of lust? Why do we do this? This doesn't fix our problems, doesn't make the stress and pain go away.
Ayo I don’t mean to force anything on anyone, but we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested (read on)
repent to God, friends. We must stay focused, brothers, on what really matters. I'm only 17, but I'm telling you, in the words of johnny cash, "sooner or later God will cut you down."
you will lose almost everything important to you. please, for your sakes, repent and turn to Jesus. He is, in the words of Skillet, "better than drugs." He is also better than lust. love > lust. You'll find out that this is true. love may hurt, and same for lust, but lust will keep you chained down, eventually killing you mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and possibly physically.
hell was never meant for us, my fellow youtube user. it was for the devil and his squad, and God gave us the Way out of there since we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God knew we were wack, but He decided He was still come down and help us, despite our unfaithfulness. most relationships (like friendships, romantic relationships) aren't like this. Very few, but not a whole lot.
religion (Christianity) is just a relationship with God along with loving others (see james 1:27)
also, we have various types of evidence that backs up the Bible.
Here's one example: Scientists have discovered that the earth "skipped" a day.
The Bible explains how that happened. In the book of Joshua, Joshua asked the sun to stop so he and the Israelites could defeat their enemies. Then in 2 Kings, King Hezekiah learned he was dying, and pleaded to God to not let him die. God sent a prophet to king hezekiah who said hezekiah would live. Hezekiah wanted a sign, and that would be for the sun to defy the law of inertia and go back 10 degrees. NASA confirmed it and did the math (look it up for more info).
We also found Noah’s Ark hanging out in turkey, along with anchor stones marked with crosses signifying that it’s a revered place, along with altars and many other things. Look it up, it’s good stuff.
more evidence for the Bible concerning cosmology and divine revelation in job 26:7, proverbs 8:27, Isaiah 40:22 (read on)
The idea that the earth was round can be dated back to 600 BC in Greece. It was more widely accepted around the 3rd century (300 BC-201 BC) Note: time was “labeled” differently back then. for example, year 3000, year 420, year 69, year 0, year 1, year 2… and so on.
Job 26:7: “. . .He [God] hangs the earth on nothing” The book of Job was supposedly written at 2100 BC.
Proverbs 8:27: “. . .when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. . .” Proverbs was possibly written between 970 and 686 BC
Isaiah 40:22: “it is He who sits above the circles of the earth. . .” Isaiah was written between 739 and 680 BC.
How did they know about this? You tell me, my fellow Zoomerz.
The Holy Spirit exists. I was a slave to s3xual sin for 7-ish d@mn years. Finally at 16, God freed me. Also, look up John Gabbana's (boonk gang) testimony. Dude did a lot of wacky stuff. He's changed now.
also, the soul exists. someone i know (i won't say who- privacy reasons) saw their soul leaving their body. like pulling off a band-aid, except it doesn't hurt.
I was suicidal for 9-ish months, but then I read John 3:16, and poof- the big sad went away in one night.
There are also non-Christian sources who have confirmed the existence and divinity of Jesus, some of which were hostile towards Christianity, such as:
Thallus (52 AD), who said Jesus lived, was crucified, and confirmed the darkness and earthquake that followed Christ’s crucifixion;
Tacitus (56-120 AD), who called the followers of Christ Christians, confirmed that Jesus was crucified under Pontus Pilate’s command
Talmud (400-700 AD), confirmed that the disciples were martyred for their faith, and confirmed Jesus was executed the day before the Passover, and said Jesus had “magical” powers
Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD), who said that the Christians thought Jesus was/is God in the Flesh (God the Son)
Phlegon (80-140 AD), who said Jesus had the ability to predict the future, and confirmed that Jesus was crucified during Caesar’s reign, confirmed Jesus rose from the dead, and confirmed He showed His wounds to confirm He was crucified.
Celcus (175 AD), who said Jesus was born of a virgin, said His father is a carpenter, and confirmed Jesus had miraculous powers
(See cold-case Christianity for more details)
Here’s the physical evidence of Jesus and His Resurrection:
1) No persecution would have started if He hadn’t come back (the disciples thought Jesus would never resurrect)
2) The Roman soldiers would have paid with their lives if they failed at their jobs
3) there was a 2-4 ton rock that 11-12 guys would have to move (they didn’t have any help. Everyone said “crucify Him”) major L to those opposed to Jesus
4) there was a Roman seal which was a metal pin that sealed the tomb stone
5) Stealing the Jesus’s body isn’t something the disciples would do (besides Judas. Although he hung himself after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus).
6) the disciples wouldn’t die for what they knew would be a lie. (The lie being Jesus never made the ultimate comeback)
faith and reason, people
hit me up to learn more about how science proves the Bible or just about God in general
The Q&A session, is that available?
A good explanation can be found in "Antiquity Unveiled", and a copy can be downloaded for free.
Would like to know more about the Triangle Freethought Society
Quick question for those who think the historicity of the bible is undeniable; what year was Jesus born?
Ummmm... ZERO!
Japanese Battlecruiser As good an answer as any.
Never? The Church itself created the Gregorian Calendar and placed year Zero as the year Jesus was born, even though he never existed. A dude doesn't have to be real for a cult believing the story to have influence.
What year was Jesus born? To the best of my recollection, scholars generally place His birth at 6 - 4 B.C.. As with the vast majority of figures from ancient history, it is near impossible to ascertain an exact date with historical certainty.
Better yet, what year did the big bang take place?
The sound quality is so bad that a listener cannot understand what is being said.
Fix it.
best
Bruce Peek
The best comment I saw about the gospels is that if you read them "There's something wrong". Why does Mark begin with Jesus at 30 with no explanation. Why is there a different Jesus in John? If you read the gospels you practically never read of any ordinary thing about him was it because these things were censored or because as Carrier suggests he didn't exist
+zzapper zzapper Nothing ordinary exists as no one was interested on an ordinary Jesus they wanted to fit a god into history. We have many sons of gods in antiquity. One god is Gaius Julius Caesar who was voted to be a god by the roman senate and it was the beginning of the roman emperor cult in which many were seen as gods.
Everyone sees that it is the same Jesus except you.
@@jrg7951 John is quite different in terms of how the Jesus character is told and there are other Gospels that didn't make it into the Canon that make the Jesus character WAY to different, which is likely why they didn't make it in
I found Exodus 15:25
And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast
into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an
ordinance, and there he proved them,
But no sign of a tree falling from the sky. Where did that come from?
This guy is just great. His body of evidence speaks for itself
His body of evidence? Have you ever investigated Dick Carrier? You should always look into criticism of anyone.
Brothers, what have we done. look at us. look at what we've become. This isn't right. we're wasting time going on about girls and sus drawings that don't give a f*ck about us. What is the point of lust? Why do we do this? This doesn't fix our problems, doesn't make the stress and pain go away.
Ayo I don’t mean to force anything on anyone, but we have various types of evidence for biblical events, if anyone is interested (read on)
repent to God, friends. We must stay focused, brothers, on what really matters. I'm only 17, but I'm telling you, in the words of johnny cash, "sooner or later God will cut you down."
you will lose almost everything important to you. please, for your sakes, repent and turn to Jesus. He is, in the words of Skillet, "better than drugs." He is also better than lust. love > lust. You'll find out that this is true. love may hurt, and same for lust, but lust will keep you chained down, eventually killing you mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and possibly physically.
hell was never meant for us, my fellow youtube user. it was for the devil and his squad, and God gave us the Way out of there since we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God knew we were wack, but He decided He was still come down and help us, despite our unfaithfulness. most relationships (like friendships, romantic relationships) aren't like this. Very few, but not a whole lot.
religion (Christianity) is just a relationship with God along with loving others (see james 1:27)
also, we have various types of evidence that backs up the Bible.
Here's one example: Scientists have discovered that the earth "skipped" a day.
The Bible explains how that happened. In the book of Joshua, Joshua asked the sun to stop so he and the Israelites could defeat their enemies. Then in 2 Kings, King Hezekiah learned he was dying, and pleaded to God to not let him die. God sent a prophet to king hezekiah who said hezekiah would live. Hezekiah wanted a sign, and that would be for the sun to defy the law of inertia and go back 10 degrees. NASA confirmed it and did the math (look it up for more info).
We also found Noah’s Ark hanging out in turkey, along with anchor stones marked with crosses signifying that it’s a revered place, along with altars and many other things. Look it up, it’s good stuff.
more evidence for the Bible concerning cosmology and divine revelation in job 26:7, proverbs 8:27, Isaiah 40:22 (read on)
The idea that the earth was round can be dated back to 600 BC in Greece. It was more widely accepted around the 3rd century (300 BC-201 BC) Note: time was “labeled” differently back then. for example, year 3000, year 420, year 69, year 0, year 1, year 2… and so on.
Job 26:7: “. . .He [God] hangs the earth on nothing” The book of Job was supposedly written at 2100 BC.
Proverbs 8:27: “. . .when He drew a circle on the face of the deep. . .” Proverbs was possibly written between 970 and 686 BC
Isaiah 40:22: “it is He who sits above the circles of the earth. . .” Isaiah was written between 739 and 680 BC.
How did they know about this? You tell me, my fellow Zoomerz.
The Holy Spirit exists. I was a slave to s3xual sin for 7-ish d@mn years. Finally at 16, God freed me. Also, look up John Gabbana's (boonk gang) testimony. Dude did a lot of wacky stuff. He's changed now.
also, the soul exists. someone i know (i won't say who- privacy reasons) saw their soul leaving their body. like pulling off a band-aid, except it doesn't hurt.
I was suicidal for 9-ish months, but then I read John 3:16, and poof- the big sad went away in one night.
There are also non-Christian sources who have confirmed the existence and divinity of Jesus, some of which were hostile towards Christianity, such as:
Thallus (52 AD), who said Jesus lived, was crucified, and confirmed the darkness and earthquake that followed Christ’s crucifixion;
Tacitus (56-120 AD), who called the followers of Christ Christians, confirmed that Jesus was crucified under Pontus Pilate’s command
Talmud (400-700 AD), confirmed that the disciples were martyred for their faith, and confirmed Jesus was executed the day before the Passover, and said Jesus had “magical” powers
Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD), who said that the Christians thought Jesus was/is God in the Flesh (God the Son)
Phlegon (80-140 AD), who said Jesus had the ability to predict the future, and confirmed that Jesus was crucified during Caesar’s reign, confirmed Jesus rose from the dead, and confirmed He showed His wounds to confirm He was crucified.
Celcus (175 AD), who said Jesus was born of a virgin, said His father is a carpenter, and confirmed Jesus had miraculous powers
(See cold-case Christianity for more details)
Here’s the physical evidence of Jesus and His Resurrection:
1) No persecution would have started if He hadn’t come back (the disciples thought Jesus would never resurrect)
2) The Roman soldiers would have paid with their lives if they failed at their jobs
3) there was a 2-4 ton rock that 11-12 guys would have to move (they didn’t have any help. Everyone said “crucify Him”) major L to those opposed to Jesus
4) there was a Roman seal which was a metal pin that sealed the tomb stone
5) Stealing the Jesus’s body isn’t something the disciples would do (besides Judas. Although he hung himself after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus).
6) the disciples wouldn’t die for what they knew would be a lie. (The lie being Jesus never made the ultimate comeback)
faith and reason, people
hit me up to learn more about how science proves the Bible or just about God in general
If the Bible is factual, why are there more than 1,100 different factions of Christianity. All of which interpret the same book 1,100 plus differently.
Bad leadership
I wish you had the Q&A in this.
Worth a watch!
Where did ancient civilizations come up with the idea of needing a savior or one rising from the dead? Seems to be a thread through out humanity that keeps popping up?
technically, a very green cast screen and fuzzy font...otherwise very interesting topic.
You are on the right track. I recommend you get Joseph Atwill's Caesar's Messiah. The example you gave with Jesus and the fig tree is one example of the typology that Atwill describes. Things that made little sense in the gospels are illuminated once you have the typological cipher.
awesome
Reading the Holy Books:
1. We learn from Al Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad and his family were amongst the few Arabs who were lactose persistent.
2. We learn from Epistles, Letters, that a very tricky method was used to create and spread early Christianity.
2.1 First, a lie about missionary activities in Israel/Palestine to convince the foreigners that things really happened, but were dismissed because the witnesses were only women.
2.2 Last, admitting to the lie when it is already too late for the new co--religionist to go back to their original religions. Indeed, it was just a revelation and he did not talk to any physical man.
3. Old Testament is part tribal chronicle and part collection of local and borrowed stories.
You don't have a clue, your assumptions are comic book level.
jesus withered a fig tree for not bearing figs... or he could've just make it bear figs if he was all that good and powerful lmao
Too bad that most of the video featuring Richard Carrier I find are in really poor quality. If english is not your native language it's kinda hard to understand everything
Debating over what the genre of the Gospels is, is no different than debating over how much white red and blue count as lilac vs lavender. I would declare that the genre of the gospels is "religious propaganda", but what's the point of arguing it?
I understood they wouldn't know what he was praying about but Jesus did chastised them for falling asleep.
Hey 32shumble, the fact that you quoted Greenleaf to me must mean you read his work, I am sure you find the whole question of the reliability of the Gospels set down way more ably than I could there. And just for the record I have nothing against my Muslim brethren , who incidentally also believe that Jesus was a real person,was born of a virgin, and did marvelous deeds and had a special relationship to Allah.
Why does ring structure indicate myth, if we know Suetonious did this in his historical biographies?
Carrier's chiasmus for Matthew at 29:48 has Mt 12:14 at the middle and he is claiming that the main point of Matthew is that the Pharisees decided to destroy Jesus.
There is a copy of it that overcomes the low resolution of this video at "The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part 2 of 4: Matthew". In OHJ Carrier gives his source for that chiasmus: Toward a Chiastic Understanding of the Gospel according to Matthew
There are other versions of this. chiasmus xchange offers one with the middle Mt 13:1-53, and the middle of that IMO is Mt 13:34 "Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables; without a parable he told them nothing." Notice the obsession with Jesus's family at Mt 12:46-50 and Mt 13:54.
It makes a little bit more sense for the point of Matthew to be parables about how Heaven and Hell work than for it to be a decision on the part of the Pharasees.
With this interpretation, the central claim seems analogous to children sitting in a treehouse judging who can be a member of their club, when the only point of the club is to exclude non-members. You have to be in our group to be sure to go to Heaven instead of Hell. You can never be sure whether you are a good enough member or not because Jesus deliberately talks in parables that you will only understand if you are His disciple. Nobody alive today is Jesus's disciple, so it is all about creating anxiety in Christians about whether they are good enough.
You should do a little more research on his work. Very little is speculation. I watched some of his videos; and after having done so, I can plainly see that the gospels are fictional.
I love how two guys wearing the same shirt appear randomly at the end completely negating the supposition of improbable historical coincidence. This lecture is more about the development of literature than anything else, of course it’s all mythology.
Thanks
sounds like dares fought mickey ward
This guys brilliant at debunking obvious bullshit,keep it up pal,"great doco"
Mastery of the obvious is all he can do. He doesn't even read Greek or Latin
Jesus is a band-aid on a failing belief in god, and for the truly desperate, it is all they require. The trick is, never remove the band-aid, because you know, the cut has never really healed.
One thing's for sure, it doesn't automatically prove atheism. It just means we don't yet have a full understanding of the Creator or Source. These gospels can be decoded, deciphered and understood in the esoteric sense, and then they are full of profound meaning.
Well, they are full of something alright.
The only people that use the phrase ‘prove atheism’ are theists. You’re adding something that isn’t a thing & creating a false dichotomy to fit your instinctive us/them narrative. 😂😂
That is unfortunate. Do you still stay up on Christmas eve hoping to get a glimpse of Santa Claus?
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy,
Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings, 1-2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song,
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel,
Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.
people caught up on how real spirituality is and people caught up on how fake it is and both sides trying to prove they are right to everyone else ( believe with me).... all of us share something that no one pays attention to because we are busy building on ideas that are not our own
I wish Richard Carrier hadn't shit himself by releasing those emails and suing everyone in the atheist community. He is one of the great biblical scholars of our time.
I just compared 1 Kings 17 and Luke 7. I was impressed that Richard Carrier actually looked at the Bible. I spent 5 minutes looking at these. I just looked at the English, but I did not take time to look at the MT, LXX and Greek NT. I suspect there are a lot of similarities between the LXX and the Greek NT. This is standard narrative literature, and there is really nothing creative or special going on in these accounts to prove one was copied word for word from the other. The closest parallels were: (1) Now it happened after, (2) Coming near the gate of a city, (3) The widow's son, (4) Raised from the dead, (5) Giving the boy to the mother, (6) People recognize the prophet is from God. The parts that were not parallels at all (1) Only the Widow was in 1 Kings, Richard combined two miracles in Luke 7 - the Centurion's son, and the Widow's son, (2) The son did not cry out in 1 Kings 17, it was Elijah that cried out, where as the son did speak in Luke 7. There is nothing surprising about any the language that occurs here, nor is it surprising a true Prophet of a real God raising people from the dead in Elijah's day and in Jesus and the Disciples raising people from the dead in the 1st Century. You may not agree that there is a God, but there is nothing unusual about the parallels being word for word copying. In fact many people in the first century were looking to Elijah returning. This parallel is one of many, showing the similarity of the prophetic office of Elijah with the coming prophetic office of Christ's first and second coming. Elijah's name occurs 68 Times in the Old Testament, and 30 times in the New Testament. That means his name occurs much more frequently per word in the New Testament than the Old. I know this will mean nothing to people here, as your minds are all ready made up, but I thought you might be interested in the opinion of someone who does Biblical Exegesis of both the Old and New Testament on a regular basis.
Don Reiher, MDiv, ThM.
6:16 chair-scrape or fart? You decide.
Anthony Tether I have farted so it went straight up my butt crack, like out the top of my pants. that's one I call the submarine
It was the holy spirit!
Definite fart
I have decided:YOU are a fart, masquerading, on the internet, as a man.
Therefore, YOU are a " smart fart " ...... as it were. But you still STINK.
This is all terribly clever. In fact, too clever. So clever in fact that I am beginning to wonder what this fellow could do with the Washington Post.
Plutarch is writing in the 2nd century, about Romulus, who is said to have lived at the time of the foundation of Rome, 3000 years before the fact. So Romulus is comparable to Moses, or Abraham, not to Jesus. It doesn't follow. The real pain in the ass for the Jesus Myth theory is Apollonius of Tyana. It is special pleading to ignore that his followers wrote a biography full of supernatural and mythical material. Yet we have external sources for him. And that's what we need for Jesus, external sources. And our only hope is Josephus. But, are we going to look for the Jesus of faith into Josephus' works? the son of Mary and Joseph, born during Herod the great, cousin of John the baptist, interrogated by Caiphas and crucified by Pilate? That approach will certainly lead to the spurious Testimonium Flavianum, an obvious fabrication. But the Testimonium is by no means necessary to find the historical Jesus in Josephus. Are we going to go as far as the evidence shows to find the actual historical Jesus? Josephus does have many parallels with the gospels, giving strong plausibility for a historical Jesus, and there are many candidates for such person.
And why treat the Gospels as newspaper narratives?
Because there are modern day analogies in secular and religious life…(?)
A lot of butt hurt Christians in the comments but there is surprisingly little evidence for an actual historic Jesus here. I don't know if Jesus actually existed and you don't either (except by "supernatural" means) even if he did in fact exist. Forget whether or not a Jesus existed 2000 years ago. Simply prove that anything supernatural is real today. I don't think you can.
Every serious scholar of the ancient Middle East knows that Jesus existed. There are plenty of references directly and indirectly, not to mention an entire religion. It is dopey and dishonest to question the mountain of evidence that exists.
No, the Gospels are not Myth, they are Fiction. The Christian/Messianic salvation myth is to be found in Paul's Epistles. The Gospels and Acts were intended, merely, to provide a common divinely appointed founder for any of the several Christianities of the evangelists' own day. Mark, the first evangelist, is unabashed as to that agenda: having his Jesus character, as the very first act of his public ministry, recruit (NB: not attract by dint of his teachings - the usual process - but recruit) disciples - thereby initiating an hierarchy through which subsequent churches can claim their own authority - passed on to them in "Apostolic Succession".
This would explain why the Gospels were placed (quite anachronistically) opening the Church's anthology of Christian writings. This strategy would make it appear (intentionally, no doubt) that the letters which follow them were no more than commentary, by their pseudepigraphical apostolically-named authors, upon the "original" teachings purportedly revealed to them by the Gospel Jesus himself. In fact, the Christ of Paul's Epistles, has nothing at all to do with the Jesus of the late 1st/early 2nd century gospel narratives. Messiah/Christ is Myth, Jesus of Nazareth is Fiction.
Eventually, even Paul himself is commandeered, in Acts, as unwilling convert to Luke's gentile based Church - ultimately elevated, along with Peter, as its divinely appointed co-founders.
FICTION!
Why would someone make up such a "contrived" story? What's the motive? Eleven men wrote their testimonies of witnessing a risen Messiah with their own blood. What did they have to gain if it was a lie? Ultimately they were executed because they wouldn't shut up about it. I can't imagine anyone dying for a lie knowing it was a lie. Something big happened 2000 years ago and it's still being discussed today.
So is Homer's _Odyssey_. Jerome wrote over 150 entries on Hercules.
What's your point?
Thanks for commenting. I'm not saying that I have proven these events true only that the people involved believed them to be true, not a fabrication. I was not there, but the apostles were convinced and believed the resurrection events as they explained really did happen that way. They could have been wrong but not knowingly deceivers. Why would they? No one dies for a lie knowing it is a lie.
You are right about my logic applying to other religions. The 911 hijackers killed themselves and others not in spite of a lie but because they believed Islam to be true. I'm not saying it is true, only that those "pilots" did or they wouldn't have committed suicide knowing full well it was a lie. I abhor the "fruits" of that religion but I don't question the sincerity of those kamikaze's at the twin towers.
I would think a Christian would dismiss all your arguments by saying "God was present. You should expect coincidences and
meanings hidden in reality which translate to literary devices which accidentally look like myths." They want to believe BS so badly they will cling to any excuse.
"A theory of myth" is not "a good primer of how myth works"---if its just theory!
Awesome hypothesis. There is a lot of contradiction in the New Testament, Epistles and Acts. Always question. Never take accounts at face value. During 9-11 while trapped in an office building opposite Battery Park, we heard on the radio that the US Air Force shot down a passenger plane over Pennsylvania. The next day, we heard the passengers tried to fight their way into the control cabin and the hijackers rammed the airliner into the ground. Which account is more likely?
Figures Christians would buy the 9/11 spin our rulers vomited out.
Along these lines the definitive for me is youtube secrets of the bible revealed. Archeology separates biblical history from myth. Yay!
Archaeologists found stone tablets in native american burial mounds. They then made an entire copy and "Created" the god-spells from those stone tablets. The 10 commandments are written on them in ancient hebrew which is my Mi'kmaq's tribes' language. THEY believe you're dumb and ignorant of bible scripture. Most christians DO NOT know Bible scripture! ALL Praise, Glory and Honor to THE MOST HIGH!
In some ways I wish America was like Rome
If Richard Carrier lived before tv, electricity, cars, no newspapers, and printed page and fast forward to the present. Nobody would know if he even existed.
So Pliny the younger was a liar then?
altarush he was just mistaken
Pliny the younger was born about 70CE. Why would you rely on him? He's not an eyewitness, he doesn't quote any eyewitnesses. All he says is what Christians were already saying. Figures a Christian would consider this proof.
You can watch this guy from 12 years ago then from last year and the chirpy, droning presentations are identical. Sophomoric to the max; he's the flip side of W.L.Craig.
let’s see…..a published PhD in History or a schmuck in the youtube comments section?
gosh, it’s difficult to discern who is worth listening to.
@@darthvirgin7157 . Sorry "Darth"...but his use of probability theory is debunked by creditable historians.
And he also doesn't read the gospels in their original language (!), which is strange.
Most graduate programs in ancient history require Greek or Latin. I have a doctorate though not in history, I am a mythicist re. Jesus but via Price and Doherty, but fortuitously got straight A's in Greek and being able to digest these texts in their original language is pretty crucial.
It's all a serious matter and the flippant, sophomoric high school forensics style of Carrier isn't helping the case; so he's been preaching to the atheist choir in beer halls for over a decade. Sad.
@@jamesbarlow6423
all that bullcrap and you still haven't said anything of value.
why do theists have to LIE, LIE, LIE.....sad, really.
@@darthvirgin7157
I'm not a theist, hun 🤣 Why do Darthies have to lie lie lie constantly 🤣
Remember professional help is out there!
@@jamesbarlow6423
LYING theist attacking Carrier claiming not to be a theist...gosh...where have i seen that before?
Gnomefro, everything I have to say on the subject I have already written,but I will say this not even Bart Ehrman or Christopher Hitchens deny that the historical Jesus existed. Nuff said
I can't speak for Ehrman, but Hitchens posited that it's possible that a figure existed in the era (that may or may not have been named Jesus) that would later inspire the myth of Jesus. That is, a man who travels around, teaching people, doing magic tricks, and maybe being killed by the Romans for being a rabble rouser. But, just because New York City exists doesn't mean Spider-man does...so it goes without saying, that just because the Bible exists, or a teacher guy in ancient Arabia, doesn't mean Jesus the Man-God did.
They neither deny or affirm - but you seem sure Jesus did exist therefore why do you look for support in those who disagree with you? Are you so desperate that you need to clutch at straws?
Koltiras Rip That figure was Apollonius of Tyana. See "Antiquity Unveiled".
Strange how NOT ONE questions whether Buddha or More Harm Mad Existed.... ONLY Jesus is singled out for this treatment. I wonder why that is?
AustralienGuy Jesus is the foundation of the christian faith, which is prevalent in the USA, which in turn is the global center for technological development & the internet. The US is also founded on the concept of free speech. It is therefore logical to assume that most of the arguments against religion that you see written by English speaking people are, in fact, from the USA, where Christianity is dominant. This is why you see more people arguing against christianity than you do against other religions.
the BIBLE is cartoons imagine SpongeBob
This man is well educated in literature however lacks education in the anthropology and culture of ancient Israel which seems to cause him to make assumptions about the validity of some accounts. The choosing of disciples for example. To leave everything and follow a rabbinical figure would be no surprise and very likely. This is obviously just one example. But I’d encourage anyone to do a little study of ancient Israeli culture, religion & such before making assumptions. We can’t accurately compare ancient Middle Eastern culture with modern western ideas and behavior as a way to debunk something.
It boggles my mind how people use the Bible's inconsistencies to disprove it and use the Bible's consistencies to disprove it as well ummmmmmm? I agree the Bible does have some things in it that are the same Jesús is what all of the old testament was pointing to. yes Joseph Moses Elijah Melquisedec representations of the one to come he is JESÚS.
Extremely interesting video. Why would anyone in ancient times go to the trouble of making up stories and look how long millions of people call themselves christians. I have never read the Bible I don't like reading books of fiction at all. I can't even be bothered reading Shakespeare and his fiction trying to figure out what he was trying to say in that English of the time. A complete waste of my precious brain. Can't stand the guy. I am trying to write my book it's going to be called:. The Gospel According to Eve. Mmmm. The truth. Perth. Western Australia.
If god was real there would be no need for religious apologists.
Search The origin of Judaism and then find out what you believe about the authenticity of the Bible..But don't be scared to loose your religion..
I'm a atheists 4life can't change it or rearrange it 🎆
No, you are equating 'probable' with 'possible'. It is not 'possible' that they are true. There are far too many contradictions and falsehoods in them for them to ever be true. He makes a case for what is 'most probable', because we will never know for sure what they are, but we can be more than reasonably certain what they aren't; and what they aren't is divinely inspired.
What is he on about, Jesus exists and has been proven by other books apart from bible. You can't just the word 'Myt
h' without evidence.
What books? I certainly haven't seen one. Put your money where your mouth is and show us one.
Jesus is solar myth. Type in "the son of god is the sun of god" . Interesting doc.
Unfortunately...unconvincing.
Just because you can't comprehend doesn't mean it's not convincing
i would challenge these speakers to try and rebuke bible prophecy..." good luck..)
mPky1 gladly..well start with the nation of israel..being formed in 1948..Isaiah 11:12...Deuteronomy 30:3...have a good day ..iwhen you hear his voice hardend not your heart...lets not forget..Ezekiel.37:12..ponder abit on these and then ill send more...
mPky1 Jeremiah 30:1-4...The word of the Lord..i have spoken..for behold days are coming..when i will restore the fortunes of my people..israel..and i will bring them back to the land thst i gave to their fathers and they shall take possession of it......
This is not a conclusive prophecy. Old Testament is all about trying to give back land and kingdom back to Israelites because it is a book for the Jewish people.
The reality is that the prophecies, when you read the story, is really not prophecies. The Christians want to prove that Bible is true by citing all the prophecies, but often takes the words out of context. Besides, there were several Prophecies back then and whenever they felt something got fulfilled, they would just include it in their book.
Another to note... for example, the mention of Virgin in the Old Testament. The word is supposed to be young women, but Christian bible translates to Virgin. The word "nailed" to feet and hands... the word translates from "Out of the Lion" and Christians translated the word to "Nailed"
Fulfilled prophecies and miracles are ways for ancient people to "prove" that they are true. However, this is not a good methodology to prove Bible is correct. In other ancient cultures, "prophecies" and "miracles" were often told to "believe" their ability.
Don't Buy Bull !
Carrier starts with the presupposition that the Gospels are fake 8.40 and then spends the rest of the lecture confirming what he already believes, ie circular reasoning fallacy.
Disciples follow a stranger instantly, Gospel of John shows that the disciples had met Jesus before hand, John 1 40-42.
At the first feeding of the multitude the disciples don't consider a miraculous feeding, whereas at the second their question is more ambiguous, ie it doesn't rule out the miraculous but doesn't assume Jesus will perform another miraculous feeding. This is in keeping with Christian theology, ie that a Christian doesn't expect God to perform miracles, although they know he can. Therefore their question wasn't stupid.
Richard Carrier doesn't understand Jesus after years of studying him, and yet he criticizes the apostles for being stupid for not understanding Jesus after following him for much less time.
Incorrect. He demonstrated why the GOSPELS contains MYTH. Are we going to ignore the fact that Plutarc did the same thing with romulus?
@@YuZewolf The new testament writings were written within the lifetimes of the witnesses of the events they portray. There is no suggestion that the events were any thing other than history, which is why Carrier's ideas aren't taken seriously by the vast majority of scholars, even the non believers.
@@brendanbutler1238 bro the GOSPELS were written after jesus dead. Nobody knew jesus in person and nobody wrote about him when he was Alive and that's a problem. What scholars? Cited them because every critics that I see about Carrier is about persons who haven't even read Carrier so.
@@YuZewolf Practically every history of someone is written after they're dead, especially in ancient times. The histories of Jesus are far more numerous and written far earlier than virtually any other person of that time. So if you deny the histories of Jesus you also have to throw out practically all ancient history, and practically all history full stop. Early tradition ascribes the Gospels to Matthew, who was a disciple of Jesus, Mark, who is said to be Peter's secretary in Rome and also mentioned by Saint Paul, Luke who is mentioned by Paul and says in his Gospel that he and many others have sought to record from eyewitnesses the events of Jesus's life, and finally John, who was also a disciple of Jesus. There is no evidence of disputes as to the authorship of the Gospels, despite the fact that they were used and read in many different places around the mediterranean.
Then on top of that you have Saint Paul who records his meeting of the apostles. The Gospels have been shown to contain accurate historical information about Israel at that time including culture, customs, geography, names, places and events. The weight of evidence of the historical nature of the Gospels is overwhelming, and that is why Carriers's Jesus myth theory, isn't taken seriously by the vast majority of NT scholars even unbelieving ones. Naming the scholars who disagree with him would be like naming the mathematicians who disagree that 2+2 isn't 4.
@@brendanbutler1238
If you cited them I can see and acknowledge for myself others people position. The problem here is that the GOSPELS don't talk about a man, the GOSPELS talks about a god performing miracles. If you wanna make a case that a man a single jew existed, then provide evidence to proof that statement.
There's actually zero evidence about jesus making miracles outside the bible. And I disagree with you, many ancient people that we know (real people, not gods) have well documented information about them. How they live, birth date, coins, letters and independent sources to corroborate that the Information they giving us is correct etc... and we cant actually compare jesus with any historical figure because the jesus we know was god and perform miracles. Paul never say he met jesus in real life, everything comes through revelation. The GOSPELS dont have independent sources to corroborate information. Tacitus, Josephus they use the GOSPELS as references and again, we cannot corroborate claims of the bible with history because we dont even know who wrote these stories, and we dont have any sources to back up the claims of the GOSPELS. Typically eye witnesses testimony are mention by historians and they tell you where they did get that information and etc...
If you can name independent sources that corroborate the bible about witnesses testimony for example, feel free to send me the evidence.
If the Gospels are fake why not use all forty instead of four?and of course the ultimate question. Why make up a story like this? If these things are myths how did it get this far? Junior needs to provide some hard evidence , not just supposition and personal opinion.
_"If the Gospels are fake why not use all forty instead of four?"_
That as largely a question of politics. The 4 gospels represent the views of the ones who won and got to exterminate all other manifestations of religion in Europe.
_"and of course the ultimate question. Why make up a story like this?"_
You could ask that of any religion and I think the answer would differ quite a bit between them. From willful deception by cult leaders, to people who have some idea that they might improve the world with certain ideas, to ancient stories intended to convey moral messages being taken too seriously, to genuinely deluded madmen with temporal lobe epilepsy etc. In any case, there's nothing more incredible about the idea that someone made up the story of Jesus than Joseph Smith's Golden plates as such. The real question that Christians would push is that they think there's too much interaction with the stories and early church fathers, Paul etc that it could be completely made up. In any case, I don't think your approach here makes much sense. You're demanding hard evidence that a 2000 year old book that talks about zombies and violations of the normal operation of nature is false? Surely the starting point should be that such tales are almost certainly false to begin with and we'd demand evidence of the concrete claims they make if we think there might be some hint of history to it all.
_"If these things are myths how did it get this far?"_
That's politics again. Christianity became a world phenomenon strictly because it got adopted by Constantine and managed to both exterminate the competition and put the church in a position of power where they could both indoctrinate the masses and punish defectors.
Daniel Parziale - - "If these things are myths how did it get this far?"
If hinduism isn't true, why is it the oldest extant religion? If islam isn't true, how has it come so far? If mormonism isn't true, why make up a story like that?
It's up to religions to provide hard evidence for their claims. People like Richard Carrier simply point out that they haven't done so.
I can't believe you thought that was worth typing. On a similar note, why would Thanos be fictional if they put him in the avengers movies and not the other villains from the comic books?
If this is the myth then the 12 that died for this myth or a lie were also false ....I can not see why anyone would be willing to die for a lie or a myth.....I am sure most of history and all religious stories have some myth and or even truth to them......I do not trust any book about history or religion for that matter. I do however trust in love and the idea of Creator or intelligent "God" that may or may not have existed. Control and fear seems to be the reason why such books or stories and religions were written.
Thucydides said, in about 400BCE, there were 152 elite Theban soldiers buried after the battle of Leutra. Archeologists discovered exactly 152 bodies buried in a mound near the the battle site. Julius Caesar said the Roman soldiers dug pits and put stakes in the bottom of them at the battle of Alesia. French archeologists confirmed this. The trust you have in a loving creator god may be true, but it certainly isn't Jesus, nor Yaweh, nor Allah.
You are correct that the apostles dying for Jesus is also a myth
The only people who interpret the bible literally,are people not interested in its mystical aspects. It seems Carrier's career is based on telling people the obvious and debunking the lowest hanging fruit. Who reads the bible and doesnt immediately realize those are allegorical teachings? (and political suggestions). At every line line there are symbolic and allegorical references. That's what a parable is. Walking on water for example, water is an ancient symbol for matter. So when Jesus tells Peter, who starts to sink below the water, that with faith one can move a mountain, he means that with much effort one can transcend the material realm and abide in a state of awareness and realization that is beyond (or beneath) the conceptual egoic mind.
+winston smith interesting thought, but maybe you are mixing with new age philosophy..?
macsporan
If any moral being were God they would not create such a world. This helped the various gnostic and Marcionite groups come to believe in 'demiurgos' and the inherent evil fallen state of this world. The thing about mystical practice is that it is based on direct experience.. and its effects are beyond dispute. Im sure you've seen the video/photo of South Vietnamese monk Thich Quang Duc protesting the US puppet government in the South,, by pouring gasoline over his head and body, sitting down in the 'Lotus position' and self-immolating to death without ever moving. If that is not an example of what years of intense mental training is capable of over the physical body.. I dont know what is.
*****
New age bullshit? lol..It's pure physiology. the guy was a buddhist monk since he was a child probably. Personally, Im an atheist but there is no arguing the fact that to sit cross-legged in a Buddhist posture while he burned to death without moving a muscle shows that his mind had somehow enabled him to control his reaction to the pain. Period.
We cant burn ourselves with a match head without automatically jumping.. (I was burned once, with gasoline, just across the top of my naked foot and I was jumping around screaming, 'Im on fire!!".. in 2 seconds all the skin was roasted right off the whole top of my foot. That and the next 4 weeks were the most excruciatingly painful of my life).
He never fucking flinched. He died in that position! You wanna dismiss that? Go right ahead. It doesnt change the facts. Here's a pic: ajl.smugmug.com/Photography/War/i-2MqQCdB/A Why dont you look at the video and then just see how long you can hold a lit cigarette on the palm of your hand without moving, Mr New age bullcrap..
Other than that I agree that to have the best chance of understanding any ancient text we have to look at the time, place, intended audience and literary tradition whence it sprang and even then it's no guarantee you will understand it as intended.
Regarding the op. that's not new age but old age. The original intentions of the authors were to convey esoteric mystical teachings.
What else is there that's really worth exploring?
That is how mystical teachings have been conveyed for thousands of years and by that time it was a well-established tradition. It is difficult to imagine a more overtly symbolic (allegory and parable) text than what we find in works from that period. We find this sort of thing in all traditions actually. Child-like story with an esoteric component are rife in ancient Hebrew writings. (See the bible or the works of people like Rebbe Nachman of the breslov),, . You dont think mysticism is something new, do you? There's nothing new about it. Im not just talking out of my ass.. Ive actually studied the subject. Do you really think wise people ever interpreted those stories (like Genesis) literally? That's half the teaching, There is an oral tradition that explains the inner (esoteric) meaning .
winston smith
i guess he wants to be a star in the heavens. to do nothing but burn for eternity. this guy is waaaaaay to much of a literalist.
+Ryan Macdonald as opposed to fantasist like the religious are. If the stakes are eternal life we will need literal proof junior not just YOUR opinion.
Carrier doesn't believe in God, therefore he thinks anything supernatural must be mocked and be declared to be a myth. Like no one saw this coming from an atheist. The whole video is a argument of repetition based incredulity, and of course the ubiquitous cursing from those who do not seek truth.
the raglan rank is interesting. the narrator here says Jesus fits almost all attributes in raglans list.
so I looked it up on wiki:
#1 no,
#2no,
#3 well back in the days everyone was kind of relative to anyone....
#4 yes ok
#5 ok yes,
#6 also true
#7 nope
#8 nope and nope again
#9 there are some but not many details
#10 depends, does that mean he returned to occupied israel or does it mean he went back to heaven?
#11 depends how we look at it, Jesus die at the cross, he never defeated his enemy like the mythical heroes in an epic way.
#12 it is not known that jesus is married, let alone married to a princess
#13 also depends on whether you mean he becomes the king like we christians believe or becomes the king by actually becoming the king and taking the crown, like game of thrones style...
#14 neither in like a historians understanding nor in christians understanding did Jesus reign uneventfully
#15 Jesus never prescribed laws
#16 nope, except for those 3 days he was dead
#17nope
#18 his death isnt mysterious, but some events surrounding his death were mysetrious
#19 yeah ok this is true, cuz at the top of the hill you can talk more easily to your followers
#20 true, he had no children, but he had brothers
#21 true
#22 nope
conclusion: only 6 definite attributes and 6 vague attributes or only attributes depending on how its interprted. the rest just dont fit. sorry narrator, you are lying.
#1 Luke 3:23-28 and Matthew 1:1-17 provide contradictory genealogies for Jesus, which could be reconciled by one being Joseph's and the other Mary's. Either way, she would have been a descendent of David. Remember, the point of those genealogies was to establish that Jesus fulfilled prophecy that the Messiah would be qualified to take up the throne of Israel, Return of the King-style. (Or, rather, Tolkien modeled Aragorn on the Davidic prophecy.) So, yes, Mary was meant to be of royal lineage, and the "virgin" part is indisputable.
#2 Same counter-argument as #1: Joseph wasn't a crowned king, but the NT goes to great lengths to establish him as coming from royal blood in a clear attempt to present Jesus as the rightful heir to the throne of Israel as that was seen as a prophetic requirement.
Further on #s 1 and 2 is that Herod's Massacre of the Innocents (#6) was because he'd heard that the true heir to the throne had been born in Bethlehem. So, I'd argue that #2 at least is probably a "yes" and not a mere "maybe", that Joseph was essentially a king in exile.
#7 The flight to Egypt, as John M already pointed out.
#8 Raised by his real parents (although Joseph is technically a step-father, which muddies things somewhat), but in Egypt, so "nope and nope again" is really "nope and yep".
#10 His return to Israel from Egypt.
#11 The Temptation of Christ, which Jesus successfully passes, thereby defeating Satan. Then there's the imagery of crushing the lion and serpent/dragon in Psalm 91:13, which is literally the next verse after the part Satan quoted in the course of the Temptation (and clearly a continuation of Psalm 91:12, which Satan would have omitted. Cleansing the temple could also qualify, as he physically, violently expelled people who had polluted the temple by turning it into an open-air bank.
#15 The version of the Golden Rule in Matthew 7:12 explicitly says "this is the law".
#16 Crowds gathered to greet him when he entered Jerusalem, only to turn him over to Pilate within a week on charges of treason for claiming to be King of the Jews.
#18 A man in his early thirties in good health dying after only three hours of crucifixion is mysterious. The entire point of that method of execution was to drag it out over several days of torture.
#20 Romulus also had a brother, but Raglan gave him a point for this one. It says "children" and not "close family" for a reason.
#22 The Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.
And, to clarify #19: Raglan was taking about his death occurring on a hill (Golgotha in Jesus' case), not his ministry.
#s 7, 15, 16, 18, and 22 give us 5 more definite attributes for a total of 11/22. Add in only one of the "maybes" (or assign half-points for them) and you have more than half. In fact, the only definite "noes" are #3 (even if the genealogies in Luke and Matthew are meant to be for each parent, the last common ancestor was 25 generations back) and #12.
No kidding, which only reinforces Carrier's argument that Jesus was made up out of rainbows and moonbeams.
Well, with regards to Judaism, it's been definitively shown that it didn't become monotheistic until the Second Temple period, possibly under the influence of Zoroastrianism and the need to integrate themselves into the Persian Empire, easily 1000 years after Abraham was supposed to have lived and made a covenant that Yahweh would be his one and only god.
Why don't we look at a REAL historian. Tacitus, a Roman historian and a member of the Roman Senate, lived in the time when Christianity was taking root and an eyewitness to the persecution of the Christians. Even though Tacitus does not mention Jesus by name the title of the Christus is associated as founder of Christianity. Now remember this is from a non-Christian who was born 30 years or so after the death of the Christus (Jesus).
The Annul by Taticus
" Therefore, to stop the rumor [that he had set Rome on fire], he [Emperor Nero] falsely charged with guilt, and punished with the most fearful tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were [generally] hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of that name, was put to death as a criminal by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the reign of Tiberius, but the pernicious superstition - repressed for a time, broke out yet again, not only through Judea, - where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, whither all things horrible and disgraceful flow from all quarters, as to a common receptacle, and where they are encouraged. Accordingly first those were arrested who confessed they were Christians; next on their information, a vast multitude were convicted, not so much on the charge of burning the city, as of "hating the human race."
In their very deaths they were made the subjects of sport: for they were covered with the hides of wild beasts, and worried to death by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or set fire to, and when the day waned, burned to serve for the evening lights. Nero offered his own garden players for the spectacle, and exhibited a Circensian game, indiscriminately mingling with the common people in the dress of a charioteer, or else standing in his chariot. For this cause a feeling of compassion arose towards the sufferers, though guilty and deserving of exemplary capital punishment, because they seemed not to be cut off for the public good, but were victims of the ferocity of one man."
danieljliversLXXXIX Yes, he did but the point is Tacitus acknowledged Christus was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judia, in the reign of Tiberius. This shows that a Roman historian knew of the prenucious superstition of the Christians and how their superstition came to be. Superstition or not the Christus existed and was put to death by a Roman leader as stated in the superstitious scriptures of the New Testament in the Bible.
macsporan So what you are implying is that historians such as Tacticus are only to be believed if they fit into your ideology. Accordingly then if one manuscript of Tacticus is not to be believed then all of his writings are not to be believed and should all be taken as here say and and irrelevant.
danieljliversLXXXIX True but he documented on what was historical at the time. The topic is about historical documentation of Jesus other than scripture. He we have Taticus a known historian accepted by acedamia. If you choose not to use Tacticus because he believed in what he thought was historical that is fine. Just put all of Tacticus writings under the title of fiction and don't use him for any historical data. For that matter take all historians that believe in any gods or mythical people any discard them in the trash.
danieljliversLXXXIX "+ese hombre He also wrote gods like Hercules and Dionysus were historical men. Sooooo...."
If one baby is thrown out of the water then all babies are thrown out of the water.
+ese hombre Tacitus, Josephus and Suetonius agree that the roman emperor is the ruler of the world the jews wait for (Messiah). So would you accept this as fact?
What did the most to induce the Jews to start this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth. The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 6.312-313)
There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome -as afterwards appeared from the event- the people of Judaea took to themselves. (Suetonius, Life of Vespasian 4.5)
The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orientwould triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophecy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this exalted destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth. (Tacitus, Histories 5.13)
Josephus' messianology may seem hypocritical, but it is not. In his view, the Zealots had ruined Judaea, and God had sent the Roman general to punish His chosen people as a second Pompey. In the past, God had sent the Jews into exile in Egypt and Babylon; and he had used Philistine, Assyrian and Seleucid armies to punish his chosen people. This punishment could be considered a way to restore the true Israel. To call a foreigner a Messiah was nothing new: the Persian king Cyrus the Great had already been considered the Messiah
what, again??
Carriere forgets the Gospel writers willingly died for their testimony.
People sometimes die for falsehoods they believe are true, but no one willingly dies for something they know to be a lie.
We don't even really know who the Gospel writers were, so we don't really know if they died for what they wrote.
Why would you just repeat claims that you hear. No one writing the gospels was shown to have died for his beliefs
So much energy and time invested in something they do no believe. Why can't this guy spends his time on what he believes is truth and leave Christianity aside
Hey if we're giving advice on how people should spend their time, maybe you should brush up on the finer points of English grammar
He's right but he still does not know the truth therefore His life is lived in vain...The bible says it's all a myth this guy uncovered nothing new
Yep me again guys, This is my summary. First of all how this guy can call himself a historian is beyond me. For example he call the Israelites " jerusalemites ."I know it may not mean much ,but No historian whose worth their salt would have made such a mistake. Second He uses that tired old argument that Jesus because certain events of His life followed a mythic hero path, he can't possibly be real. one could say that the lives of Abe Lincoln and William wallace also followed the hero path. Does it mean that their any less historical because of this? This guy distorts facts plain and simple. Christianity has an entire history of doing good, whereas atheism can hardly boast a spotless record. Muslims are theists because like Christians they
"Christianity has an entire history of doing good"
Which shows that you shouldn't be taken seriously; your cult is rife with insanity and immorality of all descriptions.
Ever heard of the Knights of Columbus or the Salvation army? those are only two organizations that try to make a difference. Atheism on the other hand has pol pot and joseph stalin ,nuff said.
Daniel Parziale
I take it you've never heard of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the pogroms, the Nazis, the KKK, or the thousand years known as the Dark Ages, all of which happened specifically because of, or in large part due to, your superstition and its claims. Neither Pol Pot nor Stalin did what they did BECAUSE of atheism (unlike the examples I've pointed out above), they did these things simply for power.
StaceyC123 atheism however encourages that sort of behavior. I also bring those two men up because they killed more people in the short decades they ruled than the atrocities that you mentioned killed in the centuries during which the operated.Many good Christians such as St. Francis of Assisi and Dr. Martin Luther King came out against these perversions of our faith. Oh and fyi all the people who were killed by the Inquisition died at the hands of CIVIL not RELIGIOUS authorities ,that's a nugget of information your fearless leader obviously missed when he was giving you your opinion. to say that atheists don't engage in similar or worse atrocities than these ,That's a fairy tale.
Daniel Parziale
How does not believing in imaginary beings "encourage" ANYTHING, wingnut? Atheism has no dogma or rules of behaviour that require anything of the sort, while your little magic book of fables is replete with instances of atrocities committed under the orders of your imaginary "god" (or at least by those claiming to act under the authority of said "god"). You probably need a refresher course in history as well; the main instigators of the Inquisition were Dominicans and Jesuits, acting under the perceived orders of your superstition, so you are simply full of shit when you claim this was "non-religious".
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@@yvonnegordon1952 hoping that you break your delusion soon and start to live an authentic life not based on ancient myth
This lecture didn't even address the most reliable and earliest evidence for Christ and his resurrection - the epistles of St Paul.
There are many independent historical Accounts confirming Jesus'existence and the belief that he was the Messiah outside of the Gospels. I mentioned Paul but also Josephus and Tacitus and also a Roman governor. They all wrote about Christ and confirmed he died and his apostles believed he was the Messiah
Paul was a persecutor of the church and converted and wrote his epistles and show what we believe to be true about Christ was known within months of the crucifixion. This is insufficient time for a myth to begin and on top of that you had the eyewitnesses still alive during the time these accounts were written.
Also, you can literally make a connection between any myth and any modem person today. I could do it for Trump and any ancient myth but it doesn't necessarily mean Trump is copying some myth. That's just foolish logic.
Outside of all the points I mentioned, the lecturer doesn't take into account that all the Apostles were martyred for their beliefs in Christ. It wasn't that they were killed in war but were killed solely for their beliefs as martyrs. Do you seriously believe that many people would kill themselves for a known lie?
There's a difference between dying for something you believe to be true but are unaware it to be a lie, but do you seriously believe these apostles made up a myth about Christ and then died for it knowing it's a lie?
Would any rational person make up a lie and then die for it? And we're not talking about 1 person, we're talking about tens of apostles.
I would be happy to see if anyone can address my points:
1) The lecturer doesn't address the earliest historical documents of Christ- St Paul and his letters
2) the lecturer tries to draw a connection between old myths to Christ's death and resurrection but this can be done to any modem story for example Hitler could be related to an ancient myth but it doesn't mean Hitler did not exist and commit evil acts - that logic is foolish
3) the lecturer does not consider the fact that all of the Apostles died for their belief in Christ. This means he is claiming the Apostles willingly were martyred for a belief they KNEW to be false. That's just incredibly irrational.
This lecture was only about the gospels, as stated in the title. If you look at his other talks, or read his book the majority of his evidence is about Paul's epistles. For the record I'm not saying I buy his theories, I'm just trying to be fair.
Also there is zero proof all of the Apostles were martyred for their beliefs. At best there is proof for a couple, and there is no evidence they could have saved themselves or even that they didn't deny their beliefs in the end. Paulogia does an excellent few videos on the subject including a couple where he engages with some prominent biblical scholars. I highly recommend his stuff as although he is not a believer his content is very fair and for the most part very clean, civil, and Christian friendly.
Again for the record, I'm not saying I think Jesus never existed, or that people weren't persecuted or martyred for their beliefs. I just think you are way overselling your position on the Apostles. If you have some proof I'm unaware of I'd like to be made aware.
@@gravitywaves2796 I honestly think people don't realize if we apply this level of skepticism to history you can never make any conclusion about any historical event. You can always make an argument about forgery or conspiracy theory.
These people remind me of Holocaust deniers. Disgusting!
Also what am I overselling? There's historical documents supporting my claims and St Paul's death and others are recorded as well. You claim there is no proof but there is.
@@philipjames430 You made the claim ALL of the Apostles were martyred and that was such great evidence. That is simply not the case. Paul likely was killed although there isn't great evidence, and if you look at secular historical sources there isn't much evidence that more than one or two of the Apostles were martyred. Probably most importantly there is no proof any of them could have gotten out of it by recanting so it's kind of a moot point anyway. I just don't see that as any type of strong claim for the truth of Christianity. People are wrong all the time, deceived by others or by themselves. People die for false beliefs fairly often, look at the history of people martyred for a wide range of often contradictory beliefs. Their willingness to die says nothing about the truth of the matter.
I don't think it's fair to compare Jesus mythicism to holocaust denial. Sure there are many crackpots that believe both, and some of the Jesus myth theories are way out there often including weird conspiracy thinking. That said I think people like Richard Carrier and Robert Price make a fairly reasonable and convincing case. There are many strange things when you take a close look at what little evidence actually still exists with an open mind and no preconceptions. I'm not completely sold on the idea myself, but I do think their version is it at least a defensible position.
Frankly it's far more likely Jesus never existed at all than the proposition that the gospels are completely accurate portrayals of actual history. As an easy example do you believe zombies roamed the streets of Jerusalem for a day as written in Matthew 27 and no one else thought to write a record of it?
@@gravitywaves2796
The apostles dying for their believes does not prove it to be true but it strengthens the fact that they most likely did not forge or fabricate their beliefs and it testifies their beliefs were genuine. That is, they truly believed that Christ did rise from the dead. There's a difference between dying for a lie you don't know to be true versus dying for something you made up. This further strengthens the accuracy of the Gospels. No one dies for a lie they KNOW to be false.
honestly my friend, the fact that you aren't convinced that Christ even existed despite the fact that it is universally attested by new testament scholars shows me you aren't really open minded. Agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.
Like I said there are people who deny the Holocaust or the moon landing. I personally don't care if you agree. As soon as I realize someone isn't open minded I just back out of the convo. Like I said, new testament scholars universally disagree with you. Don't be ignorant. Goodbye.
@@philipjames430 You must have some reading comprehension skills as I went out of my way several times to say I did not hold a mythicist position. I simply stated I think it's a defensible position. Have you read Carrier's book or have you just wrote it off as akin to holocaust denial without consideration? Or read Bart Ehrman's book taking the opposite position but from a secular point of view? They agree on a surprising amount of points, just come to different interpretations and conclusions. I come down far more on Ehrman's side for the record.
That said I think the whole idea I once believed due to indoctrination, that Jesus was actually magic and actually the son of God and somehow still god himself, who died by sacrificing himself to himself in order to forgive man for breaking rules he himself made up, is even more hard to believe. Although I try to stay open to any possibility that one is a bit of a stretch knowing what I do now. I have shown I am capable of changing my mind when presented new facts can you say the same? Who is the one who is closed minded?
Jesus. lol
Read Caesar's Messiah and you can know beyond a doubt the Romans created the gospels.
michael Word- please get a job.
Still a fail...
God closed the world's eyes because we refuse to keep his Commandments we're all blind when the answer is just so simple do unto others as we would do under our own selves and we would find eternal life 4 to love is to tell the truth too leeds to death. He also said we would believe fairy tales for we believe the truth this guy can tell some Tales is well reading a man's educated World though but that's going to Die 2
Did you boil a goat in it's mother's milk?
Lol. Is he trolling? Haha!
Myth is a story of the gods that happened in primeval time. Jesus is not a mythical character because he was a real person who existed in historical time.
Then it should be easy for you to supply eyewitness evidence for the existence of Superjew.
So says your empty, unsupported claim