Ep 3 - An Utter Failure on the Chip Carved Zebrano Top - And How To Fix It
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- Welcome to Crimson Guitars ruclips.net/user/CrimsonC... and welcome to episode 3 of Ben's experimentation in chip carving a Zebrano topped Descendant guitar.
This episode is all about fixing mistakes and making things much better in the process.
Chapters
0:00 Introduction
3:34 Back to the beginning - removing the resin
10:38 Resin out. Now Ben is starting over with a slightly different technique
27:07 Uh-uh! He forgot about the sides.
28:28 Is there no end to these darn bubbles?
30:15 Conclusion
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Ben Crowe is a man who is not afraid to experiment, not afraid to fail, and not afraid to share his failures on the internet for all to see. Aspire to be more like Ben Crowe.
Fraser McFadyen totally agreed!
But rarely plans his experimentation, making it difficult to learn from mistakes. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail...
If and when he fails, it's always spectacular, like the succeses, c'mon!
The trouble is, he seems to be in the process of making almost the same mistake. What is it they say about those who repeat mistakes and expect a different result? I confess, I really don't know what he's trying to achieve here.
I agree that maybe a translucent or pearloid/irridescent colour might work with those bold geometric shapes. I guess he's experimenting, that's hard to criticise, I suppose.
I find myself perversely wishing someone would pour the rest of that resin into the pickup cavity as a practical joke on you Ben 😂
You evil genius! I love it! B
2020 and i am watching all of your videos back. so inspiring! thanks!
45 minute work time.... no doubt I would need them all! :D
I know some guys use vacuum chamber to remove bubbles from epoxy... :)
Yes! This is the winning ticket for sure.
Its fancy but not needed for something that shallow.
Not whipping bubbles into the resin works as good, and costs you less.
For other stuff like 2part silicone resins i would recommend using a vacuum or high pressure chamber.
Making a vacuum chamber for just the pitcher would cost very little. It's basically just a section of large diameter pipe, two sheets (the top one could be perspex, so you can see the action), some garden hose fittings (most importantly a t-piece)and a faucet. Making one for a whole guitar is similarly simple, but requires you to build a frame that'll be airtight when you lay the top and bottom onto it.
Yep that would work, also placing the container on an electric sander helps remove bubbles.
It looks way better now !! You can now stain it a little bit to make the carvings popout even more then clear laquer it ?
How can you oil finish it if the carvings are filled with resin ? Will the carvings be plastic glosssy and the rest oil glossy ?
Hairdryer.... high heat one or low setting on a heat gun clamped in a vice with constant hot air.... works a treat every time
Hi Ben. Try Clear Top 35 from MBFG, it gives crystal clear results up to 35mm deep. It degasses itself brilliantly but needs a warm room and has a 48 hour cure time. Clear Top 35 is also very hard when fully cured ( 7 days ) and polishes amazingly well. If you plan to do more resin work, it would be worth getting a vacuum pump and chamber to de-gas the resin before pouring. Zebrano can be a pain as air can expand out of the large tubules in the wood with the heat from the curing resin. See you next month. Cheers, Jim
Bob Ross “We don't make mistakes, just happy little accidents.”
I've been researching this epoxy thing for a 'river table'. There appears to be differe bttypes of 'clear cast' resin for different depths. In most cases the thickness is 'built up' by layering before the bottom coat good off - leravingthe first pour for 12 hours and etc...
Hi!
On the topic of epoxy filled carvings:
I’ve build a few kayaks (epoxy/fiberglass on wood) and have run into my share of bubbles, and found out on the mighty internet, that the bubbles comes from the wood emitting gas. As the wood heats up, the gasses in the wood expands and gets trapped in the resin. The best way to avoid it was to heat up the WOOD, wait a bit, and then apply the resin as the wood cools down. That way the gasses in the wood contracts and suck in the resin, instead of pushing out bubbles.
Thanks for the videos, they are very inspiring, not just for guitar builders, but for lovers of wood work!
Greetings from Denmark 🇩🇰
Ben... use a palm/orbital sander with no abrasive on it to create vibration to help disperse bubbles. I saw that on a TV show called "the salvager" but he was working on a table with cement!
Good someone else mentioned this trick closer to the time - its a bit frustrating watching someone doing something the hard way when you know something that would have made things go easier . . . 18 months late!
What about a random orbital sander without any abrasive on to shake the guitar from the side and get rid of the air bubbles?
I'm liking it now. Nice recovery 👍✌💗
How about copper leaf on the bottom parts of the carving where you went through the top then clear resin, in a few layers next time?
Did you think about using an orbital sander without sandpaper as a source of vibration?
I appreciate that Ben did this experiment in a tweed vest
All the fire got me wondering... given Bens’ love of burning stuff, how about a more organic carving, burn/char it, and then fill with epoxy. Could be interesting.
I think a charred guitar with carvings and transparent amber resin in those carvings would be amazing. I keep picturing carvings that look like interlocked hexagon beehive shapes with the transparent amber in them.
Happy sanding in perspective ;)
Do you believe you can oil it, even on the resin?
What would you think of a 6 string bass with a 5 string width neck and a custom body(and a tremelo bridge)
It appeared there were some adhesion problems with the first go round. A 220 sanding rather than scraping would help with that or a seal coat of some sort. I fear if the resin pops it will give a clouded look.
Great recovery! Chipping off take 1 looked difficult, but came together great! 45 min working time is not bad. Any chance we'll see the final finishing process?
It might have been interesting if you had stained the cavities with different colours (Crimson Guitar Custom Stains) before pouring the epoxy, say red, blue, green, unstained. Any "jewel" colour.
i have a 2015 les paul deluxe
is it possible to have the boost switched out for another tone knob?
i owned one of your guitars..it was the most amazing guitar ever..it had a highly contoured body..almost concave in the back and it was not flat but curved so that it hugged your body..it had a chip in it so i know the body was mahogany with a black finish..but the neck joint was one of a kind..it was like a slotted dove tail joint..where the neck slid in nice and snug and then had if i remember 2 stainless fasteners at the heel to tighten things rock solid and had an amzing rounded over contour the neck had an amazing tinted finish and a marvelous veloute..unfortunately i some how managed to ding off the crimson emblem on the headstock and it had the most amazing un marked pickups that just had a date and the pickup output ratings marked on the back..there was not an edge to be found on the guitar except the neck and your awesome headstock the entire body was contoured and it appeared to have an ebony fretboard that had the slightest crack at the very base..no big deal..guitar was simply amazing..it resonated for days..you could feel every note in your hand..it was an absolutely amazing piece of craftsmanship..i have never to this day seen or played a guitar that was that contoured and balanced..like i said..looking down at the body it was actualy curved and just hugged the body in a way no other guitar could.but unfortunately shitheads broke into my house and stole several guitars and one of them was that guitar..i know you have made many many guitars..but that one was very special ..so if you have any recollection at all of that guitar..i would love to speak to you about possibly making another one..the neck joint im sure has to be a tell tale here.because of how it slotted into the body.almost dove tail style and then was secured bolt on style with the stainless fasteners and grommets set in the heal of the neck..much respect.you are an amazing craftsman and you put some serious mojo and magic into that guitar as im sure you do into all of your guitars,,thank you for some of the greatest musical moments in my life that could not have been possible without that guitar.it was pure magic..please people you have to play one of this mans guitars to know the true meaning of play ability and tone and amazing craftsmanship..again much respect namaste
Are you using smooth-on epoxy which they use for circuit boards. Very clear stuff and I think it can be thinned with acetone to allow any bubbles to come to the surface.
man... great kudos to you! I thought you'd try to re-carve to whole top on a CNC machine (I'd try to do that), losing a significant ammount of the wood top, just to re-plain it, keeping the holes filled with the resin and it would be the end.
but you re-carved it... I'm really impressed with your skills. The final result (at 10:36) looks like if you had a "undo" button on your workshop LOL!!
And, as others pointed, great to see you kept the good mood and tryed to recover the project.
Man there's something really satisfying about the sped up carving noise.
@ 19:29 Would an oven or hot box of some sort for a few seconds also work? Ala slide the body in, wait a few seconds, pull it out.
Nice ! I did a similar thing on a small jewelry box I made for my wife only difference is I applied gold leaf to the recessed areas.
Would a heating mat under the guitar do a proper job of clearing the bubbles?
Would heating up the wood before applying the epoxy resin have helped?
There are also cartriges with both resin and hardner that have a nozzle that mixes it while pushing it out with their special caulking like gun which is mixed perfectly and no bubbles.
Did you think about applying porefiller before pouring the resin? Maybe that stops air from the pores to raise into the resin? What do you think?
Just curious what is the difference between that reason and just regular two part epoxy?
Many years ago I worked for a ceramics company making false teeth, to remove the air from the alginate mould I used a vibrating table, the air would rise to the top and disappear. Just a thought if you decide to do another guitar with resin filler. ? Looks good though. nice job Ben.
seeing as you pour a lot of resin for your different builds, why dont you get a vaccum pump and degass the resin before the pour ?
How about using vacuum pump to get rid of the bubbles before applying the resin???
You didn't apply shellac to the wood prior to filling this time. Perhaps the bare wood contributed to the continuous forming of bubbles mentioned at 29:17? Resin could also be soaking into the wood, causing the need for "topping up"?
Just a couple of thoughts.
How about heating up resin in warm water before mixing it?
Ben the operative word you seek is vacuum. Small vacuum chamber, even operated by a hand pump will remove bubbles from epoxy. Cheers
got it in one!
Can't wait until you discover the vacuum chamber for epoxy. Sucks out the bubbles and forces the epoxy into the wood pores. Definitely a creative rabbit hole to jump down with that.
I presume you did not need to re laquer before pouring the resin back in to stop it leaking into the wood?
just a thought Ben, as the resin has a long working times you could set up a vacuum chamber to de-gas the resin before pouring? it might just help save some time in the long run.
Can you vacuum the bubbles out like you do with silicone?
Looks great, why not stain the top once the resin has set to make the carves stand out more?
It blushed. Painted near the dew point. Wouldn't the rosin melt if you used a hot iron on it?
1. You should use a pressure pot to degas the epoxy
2. That cloudy appearance can be the result of moisture
He didn't use the melamine lacquer in the holes this time, did he? Do you suppose there was enough in the grain from last time to prevent the resin from impregnating the wood?
I am really starting to like this guitar. I want to see it sanded down. I bet its going to be neat. I want more please : ) Thanks
Ive seen other creators use a small vacume chamber to suck the air out of the mixture. I'd also think that low heat before mixing would help, making the mix a little less viscous, allowing air bubbles out. I have a coffee cup warmer that would probably have worked nicely to loosen up the mix to lose the bubbles nicely. I'd think having both additives at about 37-38 C would have the effect of thinning the liquid nicely so bubbles come out more easily. I wonder what the directions say about optimal temperature of the liquids before mixing is.
It's the stiring of the resin and hardner that create the bubbles, go easy with the stiring, and as you see heat helps rremove them, also in my own guitar building, i find that very hard resinous woods like rose wood,and ebonydon't absorb the glue very well ,making me turn to the use of epoxy to glue the boards, you build some nice stuff.....Jerry
Put a heating blanket under the body. It will heat the wood from backside to within the body and help bring bubbles to the surface and also help prevent clouding.
Placing both of the resin components in a warm bath for twenty minutes before use lowers the viscosity and releases more bubbles. Pours much better after. Heating it with flame breaks bubbles but can burn the epoxy and make it discolor, so be carefull. You can spray a fine mist of acetone on the epoxy surface to break up bubbles.
How many times did you have to sharpen your chisel for this operation?
Hello again! Stumbled across this vid in a list of 'related' whilst following along with the Silky oak build, and though I'm *18* months late, here is my critique, along with some suggestions that will hopefully see you explore more of these 2-D carves on future projects, because it looks **AWESOME**!! ... [strap in: this is gonna be a *loooong* one!!] -- @ 10:55~11:05 you state that you don't like re-doing things; my ol' Irish granddad had an adage for that -- "There are *two* ways to do anything; *right*, and *again*..." (I hear you going 'haha!', but it's sadly true...) -- Then there are some 'technical' critiques.... yes, @ **22:56**, you point a blowtorch into a *plastic* beaker of thermogenic chemicals... *not* good! The joke @ 24:29 about "bubbles in the bottom"; I thought that's what "cool beans" caused!! Your attempt at a Jedi mind trick @ 25:22 was amusing ("there *was* no glitter"!!); Then @ 28:14 -- "Boom! Heat gun!" (shoulda been the de facto standard, not *fire* to begin with!! You risk charring the beautiful zebrano!!) Not to mention the added benefit of not only applying *heat*, but the 'blowing action' that was recommended to remove bubbles!! -- @ **29:28**, "bubbles keep forming" and **31:05** "there are *some* bubbles in *some* places..... this is *going* to happen when two chemicals are reacting thermogenically for, what was the working time? 45 minutes?!? So, yeah-- bubbles gonna keep being made -- Now, on a more helpful side: instead of drumming your fingers (and I *know* it hadta *hurt*!!) on the body, there is an old trick that remedies that.... take a handheld random orbital sander (with no paper on it, just the rubber pad) and, set to it's lowest speed (or even *lower*, using a Variac!), press the pad to the workpiece and let the vibrations of the machine do the gentle shaking!! (would even work if placed to the underside of the beaker to remove bubbles in the mix!)..... I know I'm not the 'expert' you are (I've only built three, but repaired thrice more than fingers, toes, and assorted other appendages could count since 1989!!), and I *truly* am both enlightened by your knowledge and entertained by your extroverted exuberance towards luthier-ism? Luthier-atarianism? Whatever: I *love* the passion you have for making the tools through which musicians can express their individuality; YOU, *sir*, are the *artist* which bequeaths upon other 'artists' the means to their end.... Bravo!! Blessed Be, & Peace!!
Thank you for this, it I'd too late in my day for a proper response but suggestions are spot on, aphorisms absolutely true and duly.stolen and I will look forward to hearing from.you again! Thank you for your support, you and people like you are the reason I do this! B
I was thinking you could smash up the glittery resin into small chunks, put it back on the cavity, and pour over some clear/lightly coloured resin to give it a smashed gem look (just cause of the shapes of the cavitys)
Definitely a non-gloss oil finish, with the shiny resin - let the shapes stand out more :)
If you get the wood warm, do you perhaps end up driving moisture out of the wood and into the epoxy? For that matter what about volatile compounds in the wood? Insignificant compared to water at low temperatures in terms of useful pyrolysis products, but there are at least some terpenes given off, you can smell those.
I think stirring the resin slower is will prevent bubbles from forming in the beggining. Also i have been told that using a plastic stirrer instead of a wooden or metal one is the way to go.
Idea for your upcoming "singlecut" kit custom job: some amber-tinted resin and a carefully-added dead fly or insect into each inlay?
can i ask how thick you do the tops of guitars? (figured maple, etc..) .. is something like 10 mm too thick? .. thanks
We use 5 or 6mm for flat tops or modern radius carves and 16 to 20 for carved tops.. 10mm is fine though if that's what you have, better too much than too little! B
thank you
Would sitting the guitar on a heat pad or something not help?
Would a syringe work better than pouring it?
Sorry if this has been asked before, but why an open-flame torch versus a heat gun?
bevo65 heat guns suck air in, i found when i painted cars for a living the air can be filled with things you dont want spat out onto your work, notice how ben has to dig something out with a needle after starting to use the gun? also the air blast can move stuff around if your not careful, lastly heatguns get bloody hot bloody quickly! i should imagine a flame being much easier to work with in this case
JA -JANKEN! Good point. Thanks!
Gently heating the two parts before mixing lowers the viscosity, makes it easier to mix and lowers the amount of bubbles generated. You can just pop the two containers in front of a small space heater for a few minutes to get them ready.
I'm surprised you didn't use some kind of sander (properly dusted off of course) on the table surface next to the guitar, or even touching the guitar, as a vibrator.
I'm starting to mess with resin coating stompboxes, and this was (as always) an amazing video series :D
Cheers Ben!
I know that you went with clear for this round, but if you do want to add some type of particulate to epoxy the key is to do lots of layers. Not just one deep pour.
Could you use the vibrations from an orbital sander (without sandpaper of course) to help move the bubbles? Might be easier and more efficient that tapping by hand. Just a thought. :)
Only in my dreams am I building and playing guitars. Ben is a master craftsman of epic proportions!
@ 3:00 Imho just sand down the top. The "fogging" looks like a neat little effect. Wonder if the fogging would look a bit better with addressable RGB led's behind it? And I just had a 70's flashback lol.
Steep learning curve!
To remove air bubbles, we attach a small electric motor to the underside of the table, turn it on, and allow the vibration of the motor to shake the table slightly and thus encourage the bubbles to rise to the surface of the un-cured resin.
I think a decent sized heat lamp might be worth the investment. Continuous warmth and you could even preheat the work piece and the resin before pouring.
This type of technique your aplying...the clear filling of your chiped carved guitar , if you could tint it but keep it transparent ....your logo filled in with a "Crimson color or even a dark solid color so it looks like inlayed onyx....your cnc could recess cut the logo an fill it on the headstock as you are the body...hust a thought
If you mixed it in a Pyrex beaker, could you heat it a little in that before pouring?
No that would make it cure faster, the secret is not to whip that much bubbles into it in the first place.
Thanks!
I would have thought that it would have been simpler to heat the individual components separately - probably in a waterbath.
pulling the bubbles out of the mixture in a vacuum tank would be much easier, if u had access to one
Ben, for vibrating the guitar instead of tapping it or hitting the bench, why not use a palm sander with no sandpaper, just the pad of the sander against the guitar. Easily controlled vibrartions to cause the bubbles to rise to the surface.
Hi, the more you heat the guitar air will aspirate from the wood area in which the resin is being poured. The cut areas should be sealed first. if you paint a guitar and put it out i the heat i.e. sunlight the finish will be bubble ridden, same thing going on here.
If you use a straw to blow it directs the air to a small strand gets rid of the bubbles but fire is still cool it has the same effect if you don't want to mess it up I would use a straw and blow
Great job. I was so afraid you would just toss the guitar out and call the pour a failure.
Could have put some LED lights or coloured oils to have an effect in there, much better though
Ben Brennan I just thought the same thing. Great idea.
Ben, i love your channel here, You have Bloody Awesome videos, i would love to hang out with you in your shop for a day or so, but unfortunatly we live 4000 miles away from each other, keep the great videos comming man, My Best, Cousin Figel
Maybe one day! D
You also could heat up the top before droping the resin into the cavities !
Ben get a massager and place it on the guitar that should work to vibrate all the bubbles to the surface so you can apply the heat.
What was the end result
9:35 that's why we wear eye protection kids!
I quite like an oil finish but thats because i dont use laquer as much. Or does that work in the reverse... 😐
Reference the "Stone Coat counter tops" youtube channel for epoxy tips!
Blow on it using a regular drinking straw. That works much better than just blowing on it directly. You can also go over it really quickly with a BBQ lighter. Also, wood is very porous. It will cause way more bubbles than lots of other molds used for resin.
Brandywine6969 In the last video he used either laquer or poly (can't remember) in an attempt to seal the wood. I didn't notice him applying it again in this video and now I'm wondering if it came off with the resin.
It might have. I wish I could remember what the lady in one of the resin crafting channels that I watch used when using resin on wood. I think she just kept using her BBQ lighter on it throughout the day. I know she said there were lots and lots of bubbles and she had to stay on it to get rid of them.
Brandywine6969 A drinking straw works, to a point. It makes you light-headed and after a little bit, moisture from your breath drips out of the straw and lands on the resin.
Could you not try to half fill the 'delves' with clear lacquer......let it set. Then mix a second amount with glitter in and pour on top of the set clear lacquer.........just a thought.
I would have suggest you in embed something cool in the resin if you were gonna do it again anyway but too late. Cool jewels, emblems, mini skulls...? Maybe a bit too busy for this design and wood patter but I nice idea regardless, don't you think?
-While you have that resin out, how about making a mold and crafting clear pickup covers for this thing?
You can use a vacuum chamber to remove all the bubbles before droping it on the cavities / template. Ease, except you need a vacuum chamber.
Hot water baths for both parts of the epoxy will help the mixture flow easier and that will help with bubbles.
Hey Ben, I bet if you used your painter's tape/super glue trick on the pad of a random orbital sander and stuck it to the bench you'd have an instant and temporary vibrating bench to help get rid of bubbles.. just a thought.
Dude! The "Daddy tax" is a very real thing in my house.
It's been my experience with art resin is to put both parts in a hot water bath for 20 minutes before you mix them. It lowers the viscosity.
Next time have a test on a piece of scrap wood first, and you can use a vacuum chamber to suck up the bubble if you have the facilities to make one.
I think that bubbles comes from the open wood grain. Sealing with Shellac before applying epoxy might help to avoid air bubbles coming from the wood.
+ fire to remove the bubbles from the epoxy mix
Looks so much better without the resin
Good job you're a luthier not a scientist. They can spend years repeating failed experiments with minor variations until one succeeds and becomes the process. Would immersing the jug in a container of hot water (like a bain marie) help to remove the bubbles before pouring? You mentioned that new bubbles seemed to appear after pouring - could this be a result of the reaction between the two parts of the epoxy? (I know nothing about epoxy). And - was that a new Crimson sign leaning against your bench?
Myk Hough Think that James might've pinched the booth sign from the guitar show t'other week ;-)
Lacquer finish please
Looking good, but I still reckon you should put some led's into it so it light up like a Christmas tree.