Thanks for sharing Eric. I have seen Iron Eagles cracked that way. And no problems running them. I have two sets of untouched Motown 220's brand new in the box. We could test one of them. Have a great day.
Thank you so much for taking the time and showing those of us who have a passion to learn. I have respect for those of you who know what your doing and have a life times worth of work, knowledge, skill trait and still take your time to break it down and teach. Thank you.
Always love your knowledge Eric. Those look like turbo heads. Lol. It’s a little funny how it just looks like below the valve is the only part that’s been ported?! Not the bowls, not the runners just in the spot that needs the least amount of work?! Could you regain the hourglass with a bigger seat instal? I know lots of grinding on a new seat.
When you port, YOU NEED TO VISUALIZE THE DIRECTION OF AIR paths, don't forget there'll be a valve installed there. The straight throat would work if there wasn't a valve...but there is
These cracks are very common issue with 245 OHV Ford engine (Explorer/Navajo/BT/Ranger). Engines runs with them without huge leaks, exhaust gases in cooling system etc... I have truck with both heads cracked, it runs pretty cool, absolutely no problems there. Sorry for my English, I'm not native speaker, but I try to learn, so I don't use any translators.
Ford 2.3 turbo heads seem to be very crack prone too but still hold coolant typically. My other 2.3 had a crack in every chamber but ran perfectly fine, no coolant loss or burning.
Not only did he ruin the throat, but he tore into the seat and did not cut were it would have counted. Always stay about a half an inch to an inch away from the seat for the suction effect to work.
I "ported" a set of 450(i think) carbureted 305 non swirl port heads for a 305 roller motor from an 89 Camaro. I blended the bowls up to the seats, i didnt remove much material and focused on the radius that leads to the roof of the intake runner. I spent several hours working them over, lapped until the valves spun in the seats without any chattering whatsoever, like they were sliding on ice. Installed z28 springs with new stem seals and intake style retainers in place of the rotators. The spring pockets were cut deeper on the exhaust valves for the rotators so i shimmed the springs up on those valves since plain retainers changed install height. I was so proud at the time.. after watching this video, i feel like a butcher hahahahahahaha DANGIT.
Throat area is a fine balance. Less is often more when it comes to an unshrouded chambers that can allow flow 'radial' to the valve stem. This helps at low lifts. But too little area migh make for a large radius from flowing down the valve stem to flowing raidally and large wide radiuses can cause fuel separation. For extra high lift numbers consider casting a straight line between the required seat angle and the edge of the valve. There will still be an angle there no matter how high the valve lifts but as it goes up it will be less. If you can get a part of the valve job to match this angle to allow a transition it will ne helpful. Now in high lifts especially with some "line of sight" down the port and through the valve seat the flow wont actually be axial to the valve stem. It will be oblique. This would want a much shallower angle to to approach the seat area and allow a transition as the air isnt coming from the seat to the valve edge. Its coming right from the short turn radius. A 50+ degree seat will help give space for a transition and prefer some axial flow but it may all still be abrupt and caotic to a wide open valve if the port and short turn arent high enough and if the valve doesn't have a little shroud in the chamber. For high lift engines it might be beneficial not to deshroud chambers with "flow balls." Some superstock guys say the shroud should be 40 degrees to the valve stem and blend right into the 50+ degree valve gob. This way the shroud acts like part of the port and increases high speed air recovery. Its kinda a whole different philosophy from getting the most from a low lift camshaft. But it still requires "some" transition to get the most out of it. It may not be 85% the valve diameter. It may be 88% or 91% but having at least one back angle will flow more air no matter how you slice it. Perhaps if you have a big lift racecar cam it seems inconsequential. You need vaporized fuel and perhaps reduced low lift flow to make the cam feel smaller. Somwtimes a big port is what a big stroker likes. A big bowl may give volume as a ready to go pocket of air that doesn't want to flow through a pushrod pinch. Some times going against a certain grain makes an engine "feel" better. And if you're turbod you may just have a mentality that you can modilate the boost till the car goes fast. Afterall if knock isnt an issue with alcohol ora selection of whatever racefuel you like then you are more limited by the impeller inducer diameter than the cylinder head flow. But that doesn't change the fact that a flow bench flows better numbers with there is a certain shape to things.
Hello, friend. , I've been porting polishing forabricating and a lot of stuff to vehicles, race engines and all that for over 30 years, and you're absolutely a 100%, right? People also remove torque out of heads . They always think bigger is better. But yet they don't understand the flow of air. But you gotta appreciate them messing up the heads because we wouldn't have no work. So thank everyone that messes up their heads so that they could pay you to fix it . Good video as always.. welcome to twenty twenty four
Thank you for your awesome content, over my time I got my 300 head to flow 247cfm on the intake and 122 on the exhaust prior to filling all of the exhaust ports and port and polish So a topic I don't see often On some 300 heads like the one I ported and built Had the air injection ports What I did was heat the head on a grill then welded the roof then dremeled out and smoothed it But I thought you might like to talk about that sometime in a later video
So, would it be the same scenario with forced induction or does it not matter because air flow is air flow? I don't know why that question just popped into my head but I guess it's valid
Forced induction takes away a lot of the nuances of porting. But the laws of physics doesn't change. With N/A you only have 14.7psi of pressure and you try to minimize losses to get as much as you can. With forced induction, you can 'cheat' and just 'change the rules' by increasing manifold pressure. The best way is to not have to. but boost is a pretty good band-aid to cover up poor heads.
Eric, there is a question I am sure everyone wants to know, it is how much changes before and after CNC porting.? How does a Promaxx compares to a AFR Enforces to a before and after head. Compare hand porting to CNC porting. Compare a CNCd mid performer to a Brodix BB3, a Trick to a Dart... A real shoot out! I watch all your videos and am a subscriber, because or your credibility. I watch because of all your BBC info. With all of these heads going through the roof in cost, where do we spend our hard earned dollars? Thanx, Steve Solo.
Eric is it really the casting or could it be the valve striking the seat so hard that that repetitive impact of usually increased spring weight hitting the seat so much harder than no performance engine?
Pontiac used a 30 degree intake valve seats on all their contemporary stuff like Ram Air 3, 455 H.O. ect. What was the reason for this? I am assuming low lift flow but I'm not an expert. All aftermarket heads use 45 degree intake seats though. The Pontiacs I mentioned use cams with lifts of around .407/424.
I have a set of 220 Motown heads with 2.08 x 1.6 The first set I received, the valve job was so bad ,and the stem protrusion was all over the place . Then in this set they put solid roller springs , instead of flat tappet springs rate / size . I gave up and swapped out the springs.
This can be fixed, you can spray weld the ports, then cut them back down again to re-align the angles. I assume its a non porting class, so they tried to port in the throat area as it can't be regulated as you need to work on the valve seats.
Thats why i would rather have 1.94 and 1.5 valves that center is too thin. Some heads you will hit a water jacket goin that far. Thanks for video. Hard to fix cast iron cracks so i am all alluminum
What do you think of the GMPP Fastburn heads? I have a buddy who used to race short track with a running 604 (ct400) sitting in the corner of his garage for ahwile now out of his prostock, im going to try n convince his dad to let go prob wont buy worth trying, They've been around for a minute by now but how do they hang with comparable heads on the market today from like say trickflow and AFR. From research if you pluck the not very big cam from a 604 and even instal a LT4 Hotcam it will jump from 404hp to 430ishHP? Seems like alot the 604 cam surprisingly isnt that big but in all actuality the hotcam doesnt seem all that bug either. I think that 604 would be a sweet street setup in my pickup but likely have to swap the intake out it comes with a "bowtie" intake thats just a rebranded edlebrock super victor, obviously not the best street intake. They have a winters quick change rear axl he'll let go for $500 i may see if itll hold up on the street in a 2wd pickup...gotta do some research on that.
The Hot cam isn't that great but the lobes are nice and I've used them, particularly the intake in all sorts of applications. Take the stock 604 cam and regrind it using the Hot Cam intake lobe on both sides. Pull the lobe sep in a few degrees. You will be pleased with the performance. A Perf RPM style intake will be better too.
@bad406camaro you put in a new seat , with a smaller throat intake only,then put the epoxy right underneath if its good enough for joe Mondello & pat musi! it will be good enough been work on heads for 35 year never had a problem doing this !
First of all the head they are working on is a GM 400 small block anybody who knows what they're talking about we'll see the two water holes between each cylinder true words
No there not. There for a 400sbc, but gm never ran a combustion chamber design like that on stock 400. Nor the intake port at the valve stem. Those are aftermarket heads with steam ports drilled out. Super easy to do.
I have to suggest that you are not thinking this through. The valve is tapered will turn the mixture into those corners. Do you press new valve seats in?
What equation, or formula, do you use to determine distance from initial cut? And how far back cut is reasonable on a 2.25" valve, 295cc runner, on a 4.185" bore? I understand the "theory" of not taking your port work or cnc cut right to the first cut, but when using a larger bore (obviously on a different caliber head and block) won't the bigger bore allow for the air to utilize the vakve being unshrouded by not having to make the air curve back around the edge of the valve, causing less swirl and increasing flow? Also, what does removing the swirl back around the edge of the valve do to air speed? I am a novice, at best, and we all know tbat air flows fastest along the walls of the runner... in theory... if the air had fewer turns to make until it entered the chamber, wouldn't a straigher path decrease flow but increase speed? Do you have a video showing how the characteristics of the flow change and what and where, the dynamics of the speed change? I'd really like to see if it is the same for the short turn versus long, when passing the valve, and not just an overall number. Great videos. I watch as many as I can. I'm a late bloomer into airflow dynamics at my age, but I find it fascinating.
Check out a bowl area of a BAE-6 head ran those for years making 3700+ hp, 40+ lbs of boost. The seat goes straight into the bowl area, not cut back like you are talking. Anytime you try to change the air direction it hurts the flow.
As they have a 55 degree seat ...it looks like its a straight seat. But the venturi/ radius , where the air turns, moves up into the combustion chamber.
In this case, I think not. They already start with either a 2.05 or 2.08 intake valve. I don't even think a 2.20 valve would fix that. The best way to fix them is to melt them down (throw em away)
Off topic but head related. Typically as the valve angles are reduced from 23 to 18 or 15 the port is raised otherwise the port shape requires a longer turn. Why dont aftermarket manufacturers leave the angle at 23 degrees but raise the port by 1.5 inches? This would give a much straighter approach to the intake valve. The exhaust, although it still has the 23 degree could also be raised but it wont get as much benefit as the intake. Just wondering............
When I first started building racing engine, I did that to a few sets before I learned better.. 30 years ago head porting was measured with a time slip because nobody had Flow benches or any money. Eventhough I made that mistake, my work was way better than that garbage. Also, eventhough removing the thought radius is a mistake, my early 492 castings still put me in the low 11's 30 years ago with 350cu. Now days, I know a little more, build stupid amounts of NA power, and still listening and learning. 😊
I think one of the things---and Eric might correct me or weigh in on this---that early Pro Stock drivers like Bob Glidden---who extensively modified and welded stock cast iron heads---basically all the welding over time annealed the cast iron and made them soft---so much so I think they had valve seat problems.
Saying all cast iron heads Crack eventually is like saying everyone eventually dies. Well duh! I've a set of Summit Dart II heads from 1991 that I ported 25 years ago, have been overheated and freshened up a few times, milled .040", countless miles and still no cracks. I have in my possession several pairs of double hump heads that are pushing 70 years old...not cracked. Maybe I'm not understanding your declaration. 🤔
@@multishit6664 been in the Cylinder Head business since 1990. Running my own Cylinder Head and engine machine shop since 2005. I've seen alot of , how did say, oh yeah, "shit" too. Just saying
You know I actually had good luck with the Motown 220 heads. I really should have had a valve job done on them after purchasing them dressed But they ran a long time many seasons and I can't complain.
That`s what people do with a bowl hog, and it`s a mistake for sure, now I did use a bowl hog but not like that, I stop at the bottom of my 60 cut and blend it in at the bottom, now I have cutter system and it`s much simpler
it should actually angle towards the plug teardrop guide into the hourglass those were chopped up bad you could kinda fix it but it would not last long
See your point on a n/a engine , but whats your opinion on a boosted engine . Now you will be dealing with positive manifold pressure . My friends buick gn has the 3.8 turbo engine and his heads are cut back hard just like those . btw it runs high 8s in the 1320.
Put a bigger valve in it. I'm in the middle of watching the video so don't know if he explains. But that's called the throat percentage. You usually want between 89-91% of the valve size. Edit. Doesn't look like you can go any bigger so think he's sol. Lol
Other than the valves being bigger it looks like several passenger car engines I did valve jobs to when I was a kid. I mean age 12 to 15 with a Sioux Outfit.
Bernoulli's Principle of venturi effect, decreases pressure, increases velocity. The guy just created a vacuum in that throat. What to do to a head, hire a legit machine-racing shop like Eric Weingartner for a consultation, if youve never ever done heads before you shadow an experienced motorhead and practice on cracked heads
A lot of people like to ignore the laws of physics if they're applied to a a car. And Bernoulli's Principle is one of them. But the main reason you want a bell, or 'hourglass' under the valve is so the air flairs outwards. As the valve cracks open, all you have is 'low lift flow' to fill the cylinder, and that air has to make a 45(plus or minus) to get around the valve head. Modifying the port for ''maximum flow area'' and going to big, means you send all the air crashing right into the valve face instead of going past the OD of the head. So the pressure you mentioned above isn't just Bernoulli, you also have the velocity packing air in..... and then the wave reversion from the compression wave turning around Pretty much the exact opposite of what you want. But those ports sure a big, aren't they?!!!! :D
@@earlbrown Yeah its like me getting a Is1 Iron (5.3 bored to 5.7) with chevrolet 799/243 heads already installed, i have 862s on a dead engine that the 5.7 is replacing, I'm not swapping to them unless if I put dual springs on the 862s, which the 862s will increase torque some which is needed in a heavy truck due to the compression chamber being smaller.
Good luck welding it. I don't even attempt to weld cast iron anymore. It's always hit-and miss. I could attempt to bronze braze a head like this, but even then, we might have problems. Plus, I'll have a hard time getting the TIG torch in there.
and the guy is going to be saying how he has more power now. It's caused by his bias. He had the work done so of course he's going to get more power so he feels like it's got more when actually his engine has less.
@user-wv1pj6wh4h What are you talking about? - I didn't port these heads... I was just commenting on the Cracked GM heads...I haven't seen this type cracking on other company's iron heads...If you think the "porting" is causing the "cracks" you KNOW far less than you claim "Master Machinist Blah Blah" - "GIVE ME A BREAK BRO, YOU CAN'T EVEN SPELL!"
Folks don't know that what creates lift on an airplane wing, is the radius across the top side, which causes the air to flow _faster_ over the top, inducing lift. Exactly the same scenario you describe on ports.
Wow i can't believe it was that bad and i did not port it i think my local machine shop ruined them or something I don't know for sure but my god that bad sorry eric i did not realize how bad it was. I am curious on flow numbers but i am afraid to see it.
I agree, just like valve angle. 45 been the standard for so long, change it to 50 and it will increase more, along with putting a good shaped valve in there. Some of these engine builders should not have a camera posting things that they don’t know about.
Before the internet. there were books. Too many said to open the throat up to the seat. I've been schooled. Time to find those books and throw them out. Good, i'm downsizing so thanks Eric! And i know where that box is hiding!
Smokey Yunicks book ''power secrets'' mentions not doing that do you don't destroy your ''flow cone''. Don't remember what year it was written, but it's been a WHILE. If the air can't flow around the valve and rejoin itself, total flow was destroyed. In this case, there's not outward flair below the seat, so the air just crashes into the back of the valve head and back up. Any rebound from the collapsed compression wave goes back up the port and raises its pressure. Killing the flow for a second reason.
This newer generation does not beleive in reading or math. Most are horrible at both. Fact.gave a guy 23 for 8 car wash to help save his 1s. He could not for the life of himself figure out how much to give me back so he gave me 12. I had to help.
@@hankclingingsmith8707 It's crazy how many people can't make change. Even worse that you don't actually have to do match to figure out out. You just have to count out money until you get to the starting point.
Can you just turbo the b geeaus out of this motor and hope for the best ? I believe you know what your talking about ... just trying to figure a use for these now that they've been ruined
if an engine is bad NA, it's going to be bad with a turbo as well. Sure boost will make more power, but the same boost with heads that haven't been ruined is better.
OMG people if you are not a skilled machinist, DON'T try to do machine work on a set of heads when you do not know what you are doing. As you can very easily turn a port and polish job into a job that looks like someone who tried to bore out cylinders with an angle grinder. And what that head looks like is someone was treating an air die grinder like they was trying to remove welds with an angle grinder.
Or watch thousands of RUclips clips. What I have found from 41 years in motorsport, is all the top level guys, the best of the best, NEVER comment on forums or make RUclips clips. They don't even tell their most trusted friends what they know.
I get so confused…just watched a video of another well respected engine builder saying to take the bowl to the edge line of the valve seat. I think I’ll just bolt them back on and tell people it’s been done 😂😂
Straight up ERIC !!! there's a whole mess of youtube porters out there spreading their bad habits. Then you're supposed to throw on a cape and magically fix their F-ups. Ahhhhh !!!!
GIT RID OF THAT CRAPPELL FONE ☝️ TOSS IT OUT WITH THST HEAD SND GET YOUR SELF A GALAXIE THE QUALITY OF IMAGE YOU GET WITH THOSE IS TOTALLY AND 👁 MEAN TOTALLY INCREDIBLE YOU CAN SEE THE MEATL FRAGMENTATION IN THE PIK BELIEVE ME MINE DOES THAT WELL
Do you have any proof of this because as someone who has dyno tested both iron eagles and pro 1 the difference was too small to be seen. What iron does do is raise the chance of preignition and weigh more.
Theres a zillion video's on youtube including yours showing people what the principles are in porting. This guy (the head owner), has no excuse for wrecking his heads. Could have saved himself a lot of time and a set of heads if he spent an hour on youtube.
I am the owner of the heads and my dad bought them used from a local machine shop and they did the machine so I did not port those head I don't know if the machine shop guy did or whatever the case is but I did not port those heads.
I didn't realize how bad the head was and it makes me want to buy another set but hopefully not tampered with so Eric can have a good set to work with and I can have more power for my wingless spec sprint and this channel is not my racing channel it's Joshua Wooten is my racing channel and I post on Facebook about my racing
@@tadwiltman4875 I actually would love 49cc head I did have 1 set for 1 big motor but someone already messed with those but yeah what are they dart 215 49cc head. And also I wish I can find a world product 220 50cc head
@@chevyrc3623 dart makes them in 180, 200, 215, and (I believe) 230cc intake ports. They are factory angle-ported to 21.5° (generally withing the 2° limit for a "stock valve angle" class). Keep in mind that you may have to meet with the valve pockets a bit if you get them. Another thought would be the several 64cc chamber iron heads. Mill them to 58cc or so and run em.
I miss the old days when people didn't try and do everything themselves, because they watched a video of some dumbass, and can get some crappy tool from Amazon cheaper than paying a professional to do X job correctly.
Thanks for sharing Eric.
I have seen Iron Eagles cracked that way.
And no problems running them.
I have two sets of untouched Motown 220's brand new in the box.
We could test one of them.
Have a great day.
I have a set from the early 2000's . I'd like to see that too. Thanks Eric.
Can you maybe sell me a set of your willing to sell them
Thank you so much for taking the time and showing those of us who have a passion to learn. I have respect for those of you who know what your doing and have a life times worth of work, knowledge, skill trait and still take your time to break it down and teach. Thank you.
Have you done a video on bowl percentages and valve sizes??
Always love your knowledge Eric. Those look like turbo heads. Lol.
It’s a little funny how it just looks like below the valve is the only part that’s been ported?! Not the bowls, not the runners just in the spot that needs the least amount of work?!
Could you regain the hourglass with a bigger seat instal? I know lots of grinding on a new seat.
When you port, YOU NEED TO VISUALIZE THE DIRECTION OF AIR paths, don't forget there'll be a valve installed there. The straight throat would work if there wasn't a valve...but there is
Did you ever flow The SBC Crane heads from the 70’s ?
These cracks are very common issue with 245 OHV Ford engine (Explorer/Navajo/BT/Ranger). Engines runs with them without huge leaks, exhaust gases in cooling system etc... I have truck with both heads cracked, it runs pretty cool, absolutely no problems there. Sorry for my English, I'm not native speaker, but I try to learn, so I don't use any translators.
Ford 2.3 turbo heads seem to be very crack prone too but still hold coolant typically. My other 2.3 had a crack in every chamber but ran perfectly fine, no coolant loss or burning.
Don't touch a head if you remove that much material between the valves, simple as that. That area will glow!
Those are now like a flea market, a place where dreams go to die.
Not only did he ruin the throat, but he tore into the seat and did not cut were it would have counted. Always stay about a half an inch to an inch away from the seat for the suction effect to work.
I "ported" a set of 450(i think) carbureted 305 non swirl port heads for a 305 roller motor from an 89 Camaro. I blended the bowls up to the seats, i didnt remove much material and focused on the radius that leads to the roof of the intake runner.
I spent several hours working them over, lapped until the valves spun in the seats without any chattering whatsoever, like they were sliding on ice. Installed z28 springs with new stem seals and intake style retainers in place of the rotators. The spring pockets were cut deeper on the exhaust valves for the rotators so i shimmed the springs up on those valves since plain retainers changed install height.
I was so proud at the time.. after watching this video, i feel like a butcher hahahahahahaha DANGIT.
You're not alone . . . 😊
that's a rare occurrence when you see burned intake valves but if your 90-degree cut is sitting that low, it will cause hot spots.
Thanks for all the great info. I love seeing what I'm being taught
Thanks. Good valid information. How air flows is important.😊
Throat area is a fine balance. Less is often more when it comes to an unshrouded chambers that can allow flow 'radial' to the valve stem. This helps at low lifts. But too little area migh make for a large radius from flowing down the valve stem to flowing raidally and large wide radiuses can cause fuel separation. For extra high lift numbers consider casting a straight line between the required seat angle and the edge of the valve. There will still be an angle there no matter how high the valve lifts but as it goes up it will be less. If you can get a part of the valve job to match this angle to allow a transition it will ne helpful. Now in high lifts especially with some "line of sight" down the port and through the valve seat the flow wont actually be axial to the valve stem. It will be oblique. This would want a much shallower angle to to approach the seat area and allow a transition as the air isnt coming from the seat to the valve edge. Its coming right from the short turn radius. A 50+ degree seat will help give space for a transition and prefer some axial flow but it may all still be abrupt and caotic to a wide open valve if the port and short turn arent high enough and if the valve doesn't have a little shroud in the chamber. For high lift engines it might be beneficial not to deshroud chambers with "flow balls." Some superstock guys say the shroud should be 40 degrees to the valve stem and blend right into the 50+ degree valve gob. This way the shroud acts like part of the port and increases high speed air recovery. Its kinda a whole different philosophy from getting the most from a low lift camshaft. But it still requires "some" transition to get the most out of it. It may not be 85% the valve diameter. It may be 88% or 91% but having at least one back angle will flow more air no matter how you slice it. Perhaps if you have a big lift racecar cam it seems inconsequential. You need vaporized fuel and perhaps reduced low lift flow to make the cam feel smaller. Somwtimes a big port is what a big stroker likes. A big bowl may give volume as a ready to go pocket of air that doesn't want to flow through a pushrod pinch. Some times going against a certain grain makes an engine "feel" better. And if you're turbod you may just have a mentality that you can modilate the boost till the car goes fast. Afterall if knock isnt an issue with alcohol ora selection of whatever racefuel you like then you are more limited by the impeller inducer diameter than the cylinder head flow. But that doesn't change the fact that a flow bench flows better numbers with there is a certain shape to things.
Hello, friend. , I've been porting polishing forabricating and a lot of stuff to vehicles, race engines and all that for over 30 years, and you're absolutely a 100%, right?
People also remove torque out of heads . They always think bigger is better. But yet they don't understand the flow of air. But you gotta appreciate them messing up the heads because we wouldn't have no work. So thank everyone that messes up their heads so that they could pay you to fix it . Good video as always.. welcome to twenty twenty four
❤ such a great subject. Wish we could scream it from a mountain top and people listen and stop ruining heads like that.
Thank you for your awesome content, over my time I got my 300 head to flow 247cfm on the intake and 122 on the exhaust prior to filling all of the exhaust ports and port and polish
So a topic I don't see often
On some 300 heads like the one I ported and built
Had the air injection ports
What I did was heat the head on a grill then welded the roof then dremeled out and smoothed it
But I thought you might like to talk about that sometime in a later video
So, would it be the same scenario with forced induction or does it not matter because air flow is air flow? I don't know why that question just popped into my head but I guess it's valid
Forced induction takes away a lot of the nuances of porting. But the laws of physics doesn't change.
With N/A you only have 14.7psi of pressure and you try to minimize losses to get as much as you can. With forced induction, you can 'cheat' and just 'change the rules' by increasing manifold pressure.
The best way is to not have to. but boost is a pretty good band-aid to cover up poor heads.
totally agree, Ive seen same problem on Oldsmobile heads by a very high buck place I thought would know better
Could you install a set of interlockimg ductile iron seats? Like for a 2.02 instead of a 2.05 ?
No material for the seat to sit on. It would probably pop out.
Eric, there is a question I am sure everyone wants to know, it is how much changes before and after CNC porting.? How does a Promaxx compares to a AFR Enforces to a before and after head.
Compare hand porting to CNC porting. Compare a CNCd mid performer to a Brodix BB3, a Trick to a Dart... A real shoot out! I watch all your videos and am a subscriber, because or your credibility. I watch because of all your BBC info. With all of these heads going through the roof in cost, where do we spend our hard earned dollars? Thanx, Steve Solo.
Absolutely spot on,thank you!!
Eric is it really the casting or could it be the valve striking the seat so hard that that repetitive impact of usually increased spring weight hitting the seat so much harder than no performance engine?
Pontiac used a 30 degree intake valve seats on all their contemporary stuff like Ram Air 3, 455 H.O. ect. What was the reason for this? I am assuming low lift flow but I'm not an expert. All aftermarket heads use 45 degree intake seats though. The Pontiacs I mentioned use cams with lifts of around .407/424.
That's why you back cut the valve
I have a set of 220 Motown heads with 2.08 x 1.6 The first set I received, the valve job was so bad ,and the stem protrusion was all over the place . Then in this set they put solid roller springs , instead of flat tappet springs rate / size . I gave up and swapped out the springs.
So you don't cut the throat out to 90% of the valve size after you cut your 3 angle seats? I use goodsons fastcut 3D system.
This can be fixed, you can spray weld the ports, then cut them back down again to re-align the angles.
I assume its a non porting class, so they tried to port in the throat area as it can't be regulated as you need to work on the valve seats.
Thats why i would rather have 1.94 and 1.5 valves that center is too thin. Some heads you will hit a water jacket goin that far. Thanks for video. Hard to fix cast iron cracks so i am all alluminum
Thanks for this video. I learned something!
What do you think of the GMPP Fastburn heads? I have a buddy who used to race short track with a running 604 (ct400) sitting in the corner of his garage for ahwile now out of his prostock, im going to try n convince his dad to let go prob wont buy worth trying, They've been around for a minute by now but how do they hang with comparable heads on the market today from like say trickflow and AFR. From research if you pluck the not very big cam from a 604 and even instal a LT4 Hotcam it will jump from 404hp to 430ishHP? Seems like alot the 604 cam surprisingly isnt that big but in all actuality the hotcam doesnt seem all that bug either. I think that 604 would be a sweet street setup in my pickup but likely have to swap the intake out it comes with a "bowtie" intake thats just a rebranded edlebrock super victor, obviously not the best street intake. They have a winters quick change rear axl he'll let go for $500 i may see if itll hold up on the street in a 2wd pickup...gotta do some research on that.
The Hot cam isn't that great but the lobes are nice and I've used them, particularly the intake in all sorts of applications. Take the stock 604 cam and regrind it using the Hot Cam intake lobe on both sides. Pull the lobe sep in a few degrees. You will be pleased with the performance. A Perf RPM style intake will be better too.
@@DaveMcLain thanks for your info I appreciate your time
Lol cast iorn is the easy to port lol, just fill with epoxy have them done it 7 &10 days flow tested too
Yeah go ahead and epoxy a seat and see how long lasts
@bad406camaro you put in a new seat , with a smaller throat intake only,then put the epoxy right underneath if its good enough for joe Mondello & pat musi! it will be good enough been work on heads for 35 year never had a problem doing this !
Either it runs or it doesn't,
unless you're racing...
First of all the head they are working on is a GM 400 small block anybody who knows what they're talking about we'll see the two water holes between each cylinder true words
No there not. There for a 400sbc, but gm never ran a combustion chamber design like that on stock 400. Nor the intake port at the valve stem. Those are aftermarket heads with steam ports drilled out. Super easy to do.
True word aftermarket. These are actually on a 350. They don’t need the steam holes but it doesn’t affect anything.
I have to suggest that you are not thinking this through. The valve is tapered will turn the mixture into those corners. Do you press new valve seats in?
Not according to the flowbench. There is not enough material for the seat to sit on.
What equation, or formula, do you use to determine distance from initial cut? And how far back cut is reasonable on a 2.25" valve, 295cc runner, on a 4.185" bore?
I understand the "theory" of not taking your port work or cnc cut right to the first cut, but when using a larger bore (obviously on a different caliber head and block) won't the bigger bore allow for the air to utilize the vakve being unshrouded by not having to make the air curve back around the edge of the valve, causing less swirl and increasing flow?
Also, what does removing the swirl back around the edge of the valve do to air speed?
I am a novice, at best, and we all know tbat air flows fastest along the walls of the runner... in theory... if the air had fewer turns to make until it entered the chamber, wouldn't a straigher path decrease flow but increase speed?
Do you have a video showing how the characteristics of the flow change and what and where, the dynamics of the speed change? I'd really like to see if it is the same for the short turn versus long, when passing the valve, and not just an overall number.
Great videos. I watch as many as I can. I'm a late bloomer into airflow dynamics at my age, but I find it fascinating.
this is the difference between science and engineering, you don't need an equation when you can test it directly with a flow bench
How much are valve covers with oil injectors? Tall to clear girtals? Black
@@lollipop84858 you have a problem
Check out a bowl area of a BAE-6 head ran those for years making 3700+ hp, 40+ lbs of boost. The seat goes straight into the bowl area, not cut back like you are talking. Anytime you try to change the air direction it hurts the flow.
I believe they still have a throat.
As they have a 55 degree seat ...it looks like its a straight seat. But the venturi/ radius , where the air turns, moves up into the combustion chamber.
@@Baard2000exactly thank you.
I get your point;however you could still save the head by installing larger valves.
I think you'd run of head between the valves in this case. If you had the meat there you'd be right.
In this case, I think not. They already start with either a 2.05 or 2.08 intake valve. I don't even think a 2.20 valve would fix that. The best way to fix them is to melt them down (throw em away)
Off topic but head related. Typically as the valve angles are reduced from 23 to 18 or 15 the port is raised otherwise the port shape requires a longer turn. Why dont aftermarket manufacturers leave the angle at 23 degrees but raise the port by 1.5 inches? This would give a much straighter approach to the intake valve. The exhaust, although it still has the 23 degree could also be raised but it wont get as much benefit as the intake. Just wondering............
When I first started building racing engine, I did that to a few sets before I learned better.. 30 years ago head porting was measured with a time slip because nobody had Flow benches or any money. Eventhough I made that mistake, my work was way better than that garbage.
Also, eventhough removing the thought radius is a mistake, my early 492 castings still put me in the low 11's 30 years ago with 350cu.
Now days, I know a little more, build stupid amounts of NA power, and still listening and learning.
😊
Such a sad thing to see..
I guess if one could fit bigger valves it migh be possible to get some angles back?
Can the cast iron head be annealed when rebuilt to prevent cracking?
I think one of the things---and Eric might correct me or weigh in on this---that early Pro Stock drivers like Bob Glidden---who extensively modified and welded stock cast iron heads---basically all the welding over time annealed the cast iron and made them soft---so much so I think they had valve seat problems.
Is the cause of crack the hardened seat??
Saying all cast iron heads Crack eventually is like saying everyone eventually dies. Well duh! I've a set of Summit Dart II heads from 1991 that I ported 25 years ago, have been overheated and freshened up a few times, milled .040", countless miles and still no cracks. I have in my possession several pairs of double hump heads that are pushing 70 years old...not cracked. Maybe I'm not understanding your declaration. 🤔
Because your anecdotal experiences do not represent the entire world of heads and this man has possibly seen some shit doing it for a living.
@@multishit6664 been in the Cylinder Head business since 1990. Running my own Cylinder Head and engine machine shop since 2005. I've seen alot of , how did say, oh yeah, "shit" too. Just saying
Agree a nice hour glass works great for me
I use the mopar templates when porting heads.
The guy that did this prolly wears crocs and drives a squatted 2WD Silverado with a Monster sticker on the hood.
Nah, a Mexican with a Chevy and Bull horns on the hood.
You know I actually had good luck with the Motown 220 heads.
I really should have had a valve job done on them after purchasing them dressed
But they ran a long time many seasons and I can't complain.
You would be surprised how many shade tree porters are telling people to do exactly this.
That`s what people do with a bowl hog, and it`s a mistake for sure, now I did use a bowl hog but not like that, I stop at the bottom of my 60 cut and blend it in at the bottom, now I have cutter system and it`s much simpler
it should actually angle towards the plug teardrop guide into the hourglass those were chopped up bad you could kinda fix it but it would not last long
His mantra: I dont do cast iron LOL
What if the crack goes through to other side?
See your point on a n/a engine , but whats your opinion on a boosted engine . Now you will be dealing with positive manifold pressure . My friends buick gn has the 3.8 turbo engine and his heads are cut back hard just like those . btw it runs high 8s in the 1320.
It hurts just as bad if not worse. It would be faster if it was right.
guess I ll tell my buddy those 3800 heads are junk, LOL@@WeingartnerRacing
@@mitchelljohnson9548not junk but would be faster if done properly. Don’t be the I have a buddy guy. Be the I’m the one doing it guy.
One of my drag racing friends btw , I dont own any buicks . I run a 94 Supra and spank that buick all day long. @@WeingartnerRacing
Is there anything that you could do to make the numbers better after the mutilation
Put a bigger valve in it. I'm in the middle of watching the video so don't know if he explains. But that's called the throat percentage. You usually want between 89-91% of the valve size.
Edit. Doesn't look like you can go any bigger so think he's sol. Lol
Not enough room.
Easy fix, move up to the next larger valve size
Not enough room
Can't you design an insert to fix your fart-hair?
Imagining that’d be noisy as hell on the flow bench, also be a slug in the real world, for destroying the port energy / discharge coefficient.
Other than the valves being bigger it looks like several passenger car engines I did valve jobs to when I was a kid. I mean age 12 to 15 with a Sioux Outfit.
Bernoulli's Principle of venturi effect, decreases pressure, increases velocity. The guy just created a vacuum in that throat.
What to do to a head, hire a legit machine-racing shop like Eric Weingartner for a consultation, if youve never ever done heads before you shadow an experienced motorhead and practice on cracked heads
A lot of people like to ignore the laws of physics if they're applied to a a car. And Bernoulli's Principle is one of them.
But the main reason you want a bell, or 'hourglass' under the valve is so the air flairs outwards. As the valve cracks open, all you have is 'low lift flow' to fill the cylinder, and that air has to make a 45(plus or minus) to get around the valve head.
Modifying the port for ''maximum flow area'' and going to big, means you send all the air crashing right into the valve face instead of going past the OD of the head.
So the pressure you mentioned above isn't just Bernoulli, you also have the velocity packing air in..... and then the wave reversion from the compression wave turning around
Pretty much the exact opposite of what you want.
But those ports sure a big, aren't they?!!!! :D
@@earlbrown
Yeah its like me getting a Is1 Iron (5.3 bored to 5.7) with chevrolet 799/243 heads already installed, i have 862s on a dead engine that the 5.7 is replacing, I'm not swapping to them unless if I put dual springs on the 862s, which the 862s will increase torque some which is needed in a heavy truck due to the compression chamber being smaller.
Why don't you install new seats or a larger valves?
The material to install the seats is gone. The seat has to sit on something
What kind of Heads are those I have a setof them I think
World product Motown 220
Someone stole half your valves!!!
The only way to fix it is to weld the area up and recut the valve pocket?
Good luck welding it. I don't even attempt to weld cast iron anymore. It's always hit-and miss. I could attempt to bronze braze a head like this, but even then, we might have problems. Plus, I'll have a hard time getting the TIG torch in there.
@@lollipop84858 That's why I said "Good luck." There are many things I can weld nicely, but this is not one of them.
I call that job security for people like you who work on heads. 😂
I thought you didn't port cast iron heads?
I don’t. Just a freshen up.
and the guy is going to be saying how he has more power now. It's caused by his bias. He had the work done so of course he's going to get more power so he feels like it's got more when actually his engine has less.
I mean if he started with a stock head he very well may have more power now. Just not as much as he could have had
Cracking on Iron Heads must be a GM thing....
@user-wv1pj6wh4h What are you talking about? - I didn't port these heads... I was just commenting on the Cracked GM heads...I haven't seen this type cracking on other company's iron heads...If you think the "porting" is causing the "cracks" you KNOW far less than you claim "Master Machinist Blah Blah" - "GIVE ME A BREAK BRO, YOU CAN'T EVEN SPELL!"
@user-wv1pj6wh4h Go Hump Someone Else's Leg....MUTT!
Folks don't know that what creates lift on an airplane wing, is the radius across the top side, which causes the air to flow _faster_ over the top, inducing lift. Exactly the same scenario you describe on ports.
No its not.
I learnt something new today.
Fart of Hare is fleating! 😂
Still struggling with the iPhone camera? I am too🤣
Wow i can't believe it was that bad and i did not port it i think my local machine shop ruined them or something I don't know for sure but my god that bad sorry eric i did not realize how bad it was. I am curious on flow numbers but i am afraid to see it.
Yikes. can you fix it ?
Do you ever do Ford heads?
Yes
400 SBC?
If it's an N/A...okay......any forced induction (turbo, blower....)....you're wrong
I agree, just like valve angle. 45 been the standard for so long, change it to 50 and it will increase more, along with putting a good shaped valve in there. Some of these engine builders should not have a camera posting things that they don’t know about.
You guys are completely wrong. It hurts both na and forced induction. You think air just changes laws of physics because it’s boosted.
Before the internet. there were books. Too many said to open the throat up to the seat. I've been schooled. Time to find those books and throw them out. Good, i'm downsizing so thanks Eric! And i know where that box is hiding!
That's exactly how I started out doing it. It wasn't until I bought David Vizard's book that I learned the correct way.
Smokey Yunicks book ''power secrets'' mentions not doing that do you don't destroy your ''flow cone''. Don't remember what year it was written, but it's been a WHILE.
If the air can't flow around the valve and rejoin itself, total flow was destroyed.
In this case, there's not outward flair below the seat, so the air just crashes into the back of the valve head and back up.
Any rebound from the collapsed compression wave goes back up the port and raises its pressure. Killing the flow for a second reason.
This newer generation does not beleive in reading or math. Most are horrible at both. Fact.gave a guy 23 for 8 car wash to help save his 1s. He could not for the life of himself figure out how much to give me back so he gave me 12. I had to help.
@@hankclingingsmith8707 It's crazy how many people can't make change.
Even worse that you don't actually have to do match to figure out out. You just have to count out money until you get to the starting point.
Can you just turbo the b geeaus out of this motor and hope for the best ? I believe you know what your talking about ... just trying to figure a use for these now that they've been ruined
if an engine is bad NA, it's going to be bad with a turbo as well. Sure boost will make more power, but the same boost with heads that haven't been ruined is better.
cracked head every valve leaks? Mopar Magnums and aftermarket ones all cracked same spot
It actually seals. You would think it would but not enough that my equipment can measure.
You guys need a REAL camera - Not cell phones-they suck. This head is a Boat Anchor.
You tube doesn’t pay enough to flop out 2k for a camera.
Lol I have done this in the past you live and learn.
OMG people if you are not a skilled machinist, DON'T try to do machine work on a set of heads when you do not know what you are doing. As you can very easily turn a port and polish job into a job that looks like someone who tried to bore out cylinders with an angle grinder. And what that head looks like is someone was treating an air die grinder like they was trying to remove welds with an angle grinder.
He did it for free. Most racers don't have much money
OMG, if you have no existing skills you should never attempt anything!!!! But whoever did it chose the right head to experiment/learn on.
yeah, I hate when good head gets ruined.
Problem is any idiot can buy cheap porting tools today
problem is any idiot can reproduce
Or watch thousands of RUclips clips.
What I have found from 41 years in motorsport, is all the top level guys, the best of the best, NEVER comment on forums or make RUclips clips.
They don't even tell their most trusted friends what they know.
That’s bad. 😂 Usually no more than 88-90% of valve diameter?
Great. Videos…thanks
I get so confused…just watched a video of another well respected engine builder saying to take the bowl to the edge line of the valve seat.
I think I’ll just bolt them back on and tell people it’s been done 😂😂
You take the bowl to the edge seat ring where the undercuts are. What you don’t do is take it to the edge of the actual valve seat area.
Straight up ERIC !!! there's a whole mess of youtube porters out there spreading their bad habits.
Then you're supposed to throw on a cape and magically fix their F-ups. Ahhhhh !!!!
Looks like the guys as blind as me lol.
Wow. Cast crack!!!!
GIT RID OF THAT CRAPPELL FONE ☝️ TOSS IT OUT WITH THST HEAD SND GET YOUR SELF A GALAXIE THE QUALITY OF IMAGE YOU GET WITH THOSE IS TOTALLY AND 👁 MEAN TOTALLY INCREDIBLE YOU CAN SEE THE MEATL FRAGMENTATION IN THE PIK BELIEVE ME MINE DOES THAT WELL
love it, CRACK HAPPENS!
Iron makes power
Not enough to make up for weight.
That is not a true statement unless you have an extremely light weight race car. Think about it.
Do you have any proof of this because as someone who has dyno tested both iron eagles and pro 1 the difference was too small to be seen. What iron does do is raise the chance of preignition and weigh more.
Theres a zillion video's on youtube including yours showing people what the principles are in porting. This guy (the head owner), has no excuse for wrecking his heads. Could have saved himself a lot of time and a set of heads if he spent an hour on youtube.
I am the owner of the heads and my dad bought them used from a local machine shop and they did the machine so I did not port those head I don't know if the machine shop guy did or whatever the case is but I did not port those heads.
I didn't realize how bad the head was and it makes me want to buy another set but hopefully not tampered with so Eric can have a good set to work with and I can have more power for my wingless spec sprint and this channel is not my racing channel it's Joshua Wooten is my racing channel and I post on Facebook about my racing
@chevyrc3623 thank goodness you didn't port those. Definitely time for a new set. I wonder if the 49cc iron eagles would work better?
@@tadwiltman4875 I actually would love 49cc head I did have 1 set for 1 big motor but someone already messed with those but yeah what are they dart 215 49cc head. And also I wish I can find a world product 220 50cc head
@@chevyrc3623 dart makes them in 180, 200, 215, and (I believe) 230cc intake ports. They are factory angle-ported to 21.5° (generally withing the 2° limit for a "stock valve angle" class). Keep in mind that you may have to meet with the valve pockets a bit if you get them. Another thought would be the several 64cc chamber iron heads. Mill them to 58cc or so and run em.
I miss the old days when people didn't try and do everything themselves, because they watched a video of some dumbass, and can get some crappy tool from Amazon cheaper than paying a professional to do X job correctly.
A fart of a hair. Lol
Only way to fix that is bigger valves
flow bench it before you ruin it