Luke Skywalker probably exaggerated caedus abilities as he could have never gaged Darth Vader's abilities because Darth Vader never faced him with all his might
Thank you for bringing that up. lets all remember luke never faced vader at his peak because vader was always holding back either because palpatine ordered him or his own conflict so luke can't really make an argument for caedus being stronger since he never saw vader at his strongest
@@dimond360_ Caedus faced Luke decades after he beated Vador. At which point he should be confortably superior to the reborn Palpatine, based of his performance in dark empire. Vador until the his death always admitted his inferiority to a weaker version of the sith lord.
Joshua Greger Lmao.. yeaaaa you’re an idiot. Great job proving that in one statement. Vader’s powers are literally the direct opposite of “over-exaggerated” you utter moron. Anakin Skywalker, by ROTS, was thee most powerful Force sensitive in galactic history, and that cannot be disputed. It comes straight from Lucas and countless other Lucasfilm writers, like James Luceno for one, who was like the next best thing to Lucas himself. But Lucas has stated on multiple occasions that after Mustafar, Darth Vader lost roughly 40% of his maximum power level; and yet, he was STILL at roughly 80% the strength of the Emperor. And over the next couple years he regained a LOT of that power. Back to roughly even with sidious. The one, sole reason he couldn’t outright kill him was because of his suit’s over-the-top weakness to electricity. Which is obviously palp’s go-to... Dude Vader would utter annihilate his grandson. The entire NJO was nowhere near the skill or strength of the true Jedi order you idiot. Other than Luke, Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, & the twins, their most powerful masters were equivalent to a low tier like newly knighted Jedi of the ops order. I cannot stand idiots who just suck off the post-ROTJ era like it’s the best thing in Star Wars lmao, it’s literally like the only era that didn’t have any contribution from Lucas. Even the old Republic has a lot of Lucas created content in it. Actually, some of the post-ROTJ books are some of the worst stories in the entire EU. Not to mention literally everything past the NJO series blatantly contradicts the whole Star Wars storyline to begin with. There cannot BE any Sith after Ep6. Period.... According to the old “Canon Hierarchy” the canonical story of Star Wars before Disney took over would have went from ‘Dawn of The Jedi’ up to ‘The Unifying Force’ (excluding Dark Empire). Period.... and besides, I liked Jacen. His story was awesome it would’ve been a whole lot better if he was able to stick to the light like a true Jedi, in a mirror act to his grandfather, after what happened to him in the Yuuzhan Vong War.. It was stupid they turned him into Caedus and had him kill Mara. The whole LOTF & FOTJ era was just awful, even if it did have some pretty dope fights. Now, even if we DO include that shit into the timeline and say that it somehow doesn’t contradict anything because it “wasn’t the actual Bane lineage-the order of the Sith Lords” anymore because it was this “new sect” or whatever. Or that the prophecy was “brought full circle” when Cade Skywalker killed Darth Krayt & Ania Solo killed Darth Wredd, then well, whatever, ok, but regardless; Vader STILL womps him lmao.........Caedus would not be able to withstand his lightsaber skill. He couldn’t even handle luke or Kyle katarn in straight up Saber combat and Anakin/Vader is literally noted as one of the 3 best swordsmen in Star Wars..... And even after Mustafar he was still far stronger than Caedus ever was. Like I said earlier, he grew back about half of the power he lost on Mustafar. Which-according to Lucas’ own statements-would have put him back up to roughly even with Sidious. If anybody’s powers here are “over-exaggerated” it is Caedus, not Vader... I mean he got killed by his sister. She wasn’t supposed to be anywhere near his level by that point in terms of raw power. Maybe as a duelist she was supposed to be his equal but not in terms of their power & force connection.... Caedus stands no chance against his grandfather. Especially not when the lightsabers come out. That’s all there is to it.
Vader would have been overwhelmed by luke if he faced his father later than episode 6 as he constantly trained and got stronger. And grandmaster Luke would just have to use the green lightning and vader would die and in a lightsaber fight he would kill him.
See, I believe Niman falls under these categories: 1 The scholar) The type of person the form was geared for. This practitioner uses the form so they're good enough not to die insantly since lightsaber combat isn't their first priority. Example: Darth Plagueis. 2 The individual) Whoever uses the form in this manor applies the form to create their own style based on their unique preferences. Example: Kao Cen Darach 3 The tactician) Jack of all trades fighters who adapt to the circumstances and change their style accordingly. Example: Darth Krayt
Very good analysis. Rebels/Fulcrum Ahsoka definetely falls into the Individual Niman category. She started off as a Shien/Ataru combatant, then shifted into Jar'Kai while still keeping these forms as predominant. In Rebels, the opposite is true. Her Jar'Kai has become the backbone and she relies much more on Force Pushes, thus making her more a Niman specialist, with elements of Shien used for parries and Ataru for occasional use of acrobatics or unarmed combat.
+Group ADK yep jacen fell to the dark side because he was so traumatized by the yuuzhan vong war he felt that the only way to stop something like that ever happening again was completley controlling the galaxy personally kylo fell because he was an edgelord with a vader fetish
+Jerec 12 In defense of Kylo, we don't know what has lured him to the dark side yet. Also for some reason I find Snoke more intimidating and probably a better mentor than Lumiyah. Just personal opinion on that one.
yeah it should.If it ain't broken don't fix it.The only reason Disney changed the plot must be because people already read the comics.But the bullshit that pissed me of is that the force unleashed is non canon anymore.It will always be canon for me
dude jacen became the most badass dark lord of the sith ever, the flow walking alone made him invincible, the only reason he lost to jaina is because he stopped fighting her when he was desperately trying to save his daughter and her mother, he wasn't beaten, he sacrificed himself to his sister to save his daughter while trying really hard to not kill his sister who was trying desperately to kill him.
+1 that's my obsevation too. Even after train by Boba Fett + Jacen was fooled by Luke, Jaina didn't stand a chance. He managed to fight Luke toe to toe and punch him in the face. Luke already said Jacen to be more powerful but......he just decided to call it "overestimate".
marco feola lmao, no, he did not. We get it you’re a blatant fanboy that’s pissed about the outcome. YOUR opinion does not make him the “best” lmfaooooo. That is literally thee most narcissistic thing I’ve ever heard. Vader would bend him over his knee and give his grandson a whippin. Period
Not agreeing with your analogy, Jacen Solo being "yeah you're okay" in lightsaber dueling. He held his own against Grandmaster Luke, who was leagues better than ROTJ Luke. He was at a stalemate until Ben Skywalker stabbed him in the back with a vibroblade. Furthermore he almost killed Jaina even with a severed arm, due to Luke creating an illusion. Force powers far superior. Force lightning, communicating with the World Mind/animals, seeing into the future, etc... He was a powerhouse, who, like Anakin, was conflicted and didn't fully embrace the darkside, as his love for his family, and lack of certainty in his actions clouded his mind.
+Robert Haack thats far bu I think the term used was more of a your better than most people rather than your OK. the latter sounds more like just being a competent fighter which clearly Jacen was better than.
+Tre' Montana ummmm ...Jacen was one of the most accomplished and learned sith ever.... he also had the sith battle meld which even vader did not have, as admitted by lumya
+Ezra Kelly He was not the strongest ever, there is Krayt, Sidious (although I'm not sure how that would go) and many old republic Sith and many others
josh gonzalez Caedus? He wouldn't be number 2, somewhere around 7th and you can look at top 10s to find out or do some research, quite a few Sith would beat him (although maybe not easily)
I respectfully disagree with your judgment of Caedus' combat abilities. One of the most common problems is people underestimating his skill, and the fact is that Caedus was not a jack of all trades, master of none, but in fact a much more dangerous and deadly opponent than most people credit him as. My own analysis of Caedus' lightsaber skills actually suggests something more like Vader's own style. A mixture of the power strikes associated with Form V with a working and applied knowledge of other forms of combat, making him a dangerous opponent. This mixed with his knowledge of the Force gives him an edge. Then you forgot one of the most important factors of his battle with Jaina, Caedus was distracted during that fight. Yes, he fought as hard as he could, but the entire battle was something that he had no time to prepare for, and on top of that he at the time was trying to warn Tenel Ka about the nanokiller, which kept him from fighting at his full strength because of the distraction. In a straight, one on one fight, with no distractions, Caedus is a powerhouse duelist who could have won. Finally you didn't account for one major factor, knowledge of the opponent. Caedus would have been familiar with not only Vader's combat style, but also his shortcomings, and weaknesses that Caedus would've been willing to exploit like he did against Mara Jade. All and all, its not a bad video, but you sold Caedus too short.
Darth Judicar Thank you. Holy crap, Evan severely downplayed Caedus in this video. Not to mention that Jaina was heavily aided by Luke in the force. Without this huge amp even a distracted Caedus would have floored her. Like I said in my own comment, Caedus is probably too fast for Vader to keep up, and his ability to exploit weaknesses and surroundings to his advantage will play a decisive role in his victory against Vader.
Darth Judicar well Evan did use more than just Jaina vs Caedus as evidence and usually Evan's vs series just plainly puts opponents to the ring without any background knowledge of each other. I kind of disagree that finding Vader's shortcoming and exploiting it would be a good idea, two things can happen, one it does work and Caedus does have a chance to exploit the opportunity, or two Vader sees through the illusion and tries to hack Caedus down. And if you mean by lightsaber sequence, that is a little harder to engage, because (though I do not know the knowledge of Caedus' tactical play on the battlefield) Vader is tactical in battle, knowing what his opponents will do and counter. However, I do feel that Caedus was underestimated.....this match should be almost equal, even edge in lightsaber dueling, almost even in force prowess and own edge in weaponry and physical attributes.......Other than that TO EACH THEIR OWN.....PLEASE DON'T KILL ME
Darth Judicar That's my problem with the ending of Legacy, Caedus should have destroyed Jaina, she was no match for him and never would be. I think the series would've ended better with him surviving and being present during the Abeloth and Lost tribe situation.
Finally someone who gets it there is no way luke wouldn't have trained his students to fight against someone like Vader he would have explained all that he knew about Vader and Caedus being the genius swordsman he was would have used his knowledge of Vader to get the upper hand if he couldnt do that he would prevent such an end as Evan believe would happen
@Wes Bradley-Taubner exactly nobody gives a shit. They don’t get to say things that George Lucas directly approved-like the NJO novel series for example-don’t exist. Too bad. Yes it does. Disney is legends. Legends is canon. It’s really easy.
I agree Caedus’s whole thing is how balanced in the force he is. He spent 5 years studying and training with force abilities from force orders all over the galaxy
Actually, Vader had his own variant of Force Lightning. He could use the Force to manipulate the atmosphere and cause lightning storms to happen naturally
Rex the King Sadly it probably wont't happen. I have suggested some really good ideas for over years such as gnost dural vs plo koon but sadly results.
+Worst Scenarios Thrawn destroys Ackbar. He'd lay a trap within a trap within a trap within a trap. Ackbar would be too busy saying it's a trap to be able to do anything.
While I would ultimately give victory to Caedus (his superiority in Force abbilities is unquestionable) I'm glad that you decided to dispel the myth of Caedus supposed martial might. He's highly skilled and can contend with the best duelists of his era but ONLY contend. Without his Force abbilities he can run into trouble very quickly.
+Maciek Ciepły thats exactly right. this is why he almost lost to Mara. she has master level ability in the force and was able to at least contend with him in this area while is all a dueling specialist needs to have a reasonable chance of winning. Though to be far to Jacen Mara had a lot of other advantages beyond her normal tools/skill set in that specific fight. she would lose a lot of her advantages from that duel if things went according to one of Jacen's plans instead of her own.
@@robrockstar9648 if Mara had been fighting Caedus in a neutral setting she would have lost. Caedus is a heavily underrated character in certain circles on RUclips. Mara was only able to achieve what she did because she had a favourable environment, had traps set up and had specialised weaponry which didn't limit her ability to fight in that environment whereas Caedus had no such benefits. And that's if we ignore Caedus's performance against Luke and Kyle. Kyle in particular would have been quickly defeated had he not had a jedi strike team at his back.
I knew Darth Vader would win, and I knew you would give him the physical edge, but on his duelling edge, like I said in your Malak Vs. Vader vid, I am not so sure. Force abilities, I can understand where you're coming from on that, and for armament, I thought you would give the edge to Vader, but when the verdict for that section approached, I thought "who's he gonna give this one to?". The tune that played between your finalization of Caedus' inventory and your edge declaration actually scared and frightened me because of my uncertainty, and I do think that I can react strangely in response to musical trauma, as strange as that may be. But you are not to blame, as I was the one who watched this (well made!) video. This was a great video and an awesome way to finish of your fourth season.
Not really. Many fields from sports to science use that statement and it doesn't lose weight. It simply means how a person or a few people were at the top of their field in that time period. Since you have several eras in SW it's natural to have a decent handful of people who stood head and shoulders above the rest.
Its finally here!!! To see of Versus Series Season 4, we're pitting the two big badies of the Skywalker line against each other! Thank You all for a great Season, your guys's love and support is truly what continues to inspire me.
Interesting assessment of the combatants. Where I am a total Vader fanboy, I always enjoy hearing how suffisticated and powerful he really was, when compared to the impairments and what not. And, like most versus fights on youtube, the EU characters that I'm not familiar with, I do like learning about new and intereting characters like Caedus. But throughout the Versus, it was slightly becoming clear that Vader was going to have an edge over Caedus.
This thought recently came into my head; Luke puts Darth Caedus' Force strength above Vader, but which version of Vader did Luke observe? In Episode 5, Vader was just screwing around. In Episode 6, Vader is conflicted and thus wouldn't bring his full capabilities in any aspect, noticeably he could've sliced Luke in half based on what I saw in the film but instead aimed for the platform Luke stood on to prolong the encounter. Thus I'm probably of unpopular opinion that I'm opening the possibility Luke's assessment of both Sith Lords' power in the Force to be inaccurate as he's effectively reading bad data; Vader might actually be stronger than Caedus in the Force for all I know. If not at least I'm inclined to agree with Evan's assessment of the information given.
This is really good stuff. Really well executed. Good production quality. Well worded. And a very exciting battle. If there is one thing I could say, it is that I wanna see Yoda vs Caedus and Exar Kun vs Caedus, as well. ;) And while I agree with a lot of people in the comments about how powerful Caedus is, I feel they are, at the same time, underestimating Vadar: he didn't get the title of biggest jedi killer of all time in a raffle.
lol legacy of the force novel series describes Caedus on par with grandmaster Luke as both a force user and a swordsman. Taking Caedus as strong as he is by the end of LotF series, Caedus would stomp Vader. Literally no contest, he could probably win the fight with his force abilities alone. The LotF writers truly got out of hand with the abilities they gave him.
Thank you! He - without ego - considered himself a second to his Uncle. He was typically only bested by others when injured or distracted. He's quite simply one of the most skilled and powerful Force/Lightsaber Duelists to have ever lived. IMO, he's a top 10 strongest and most skilled of all time.
C Man Just recently, I have reread the legacy series, and boy, has Caedus been downplayed this entire video. To add to what you're saying, Evan's analysis on Caedus's style was probably wrong. He might have niman in his arsenal(and is even likely), but most evidence suggests ataru and shien bladework with a touch of makashi footwork. He consistently makes use of slash attacks fully integrated with physical strength, and goes for openings with acrobatics, both trademarks of ataru. In Betrayal, he has a moment when, under heavy blaster fire, it's stated he deflected most of the blasterfire back at them. For most of the blocks being aimed deflection screams shien. Also, against Kyle and Jaina, there were instances of Caedus backing out of reach for an attack, and going back in for a counter attack (against Jaina, using a counter-thrust). This suggest Makashi footwork being an influence. So, aside from most likely getting his style wrong, Evan downplayed literally every significant duel Caedus had. Mara lured Jacen into a cave that was even stated in the book to make a standard lightsaber useless (whereas Mara dual wielded a shoto lightsaber and a vibrodagger, both small weapons optimized for the encounter). Against Kyle, the book literally states that another jedi knight's block spared him an amputation when Caedus counterattacked, which makes an assertion that Kyle is a better swordsman cringe worthy. The speeder was also only in response to the coordination between Kyle and the jedi knights. Against Luke, Luke ultimately won, but sustained much damage as Caedus got many good hits, his biggest failings being blindsided, or being surprised via overconfidence. They had directly exchanged each other, and he even broke through Luke's attempts to keep him away from Ben Skywalker. Against Jaina, in the first fight, he started out with a bad arm, and noted that it'd detract from his ability to fight. This, on top of Jaina being amped by Luke. On the second fight, he started out with a suprise lightsaber to the gut. On force powers, Caedus could use a single bolt to send an amped Jaina flying against a wall so hard, that her ribs broke. He telikinetically, used objects to pin or grab Luke on 2 occasions, neither being resolved via overpowering said grip with the force. He was the far superior of Jaina, and was said to have deflected turbolaser shots in the past by Jaina. He's able to simultaneously use invisibility and force camouflage if he so chooses. On top of all this, the book says from Luke's perspective that Caedus was Luke's match in Inferno. Vader, whether in lightsabers or the force, would stand no chance.
Yeah. By the last book of the LotF series, Invincible, Caedus is on another level. He is described as one of the most powerful/diverse force users and swordsman of all time, on par with Luke Skywalker. Jaina's eventual victory over him was very situational. Jaina only survived the first encounter because 1) She was able to put a sniper round into his shoulder when he was busy fighting the Mandalorian Commandos 2) She was being bolstered by Luke's battle meditation and 3) Luke was projecting force phantoms to confuse and distract Caedus. That being said, Caedus still almost won, even after she ripped off his arm, and Jaina barely limped away from the fight. Vader, due to his injuries and cybernetics, was both an inferior force user and swordsman. I think it would be no contest lol. Caedus is literally described as being on an almost darth sidious level. This is mainly due to how wildly imaginative the writers were with the force powers they invented and gave him. Personally, I think they went a bit overboard. Caedus was a master of all the familiar abilities such as telekinesis/force lightning/battle meditation/shatter point/etc. But then they made up other stuff such as flow walking and the whole "beyond shadows" thing. He could also glimpse possibilities for the future at will which reminded me of Darth Cognus from the last Darth Bane novel. They made him a master of like every force ability ever discussed in Star Wars and then also gave him a few new ones for good measure. Again, I feel they went a little overboard. But back to the original point, Vader would get absolutely stomped lol. Caedus is described on the same tier as force users like Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, or Yoda.
Brilliant just brilliant Evannova95. I must say this fights final verdict blew me out of the water. Hearing Luke statement about Caedus's abilities's made me seriously overestimate him, I was so sure that this fight wasn't a fair one and that Yoda would have been a better choice. Once again because of your superior research I stand corrected. It was an absolute joy to see Caedus as I rarely see him in verses videos. I honestly can't thank you enough for having him on Season 4. You are unparalleled in these videos Evannova95 and thank you for doing what you do because I know it takes a lot of time and research. You would even surpass yoda in terms of knowledge. :) Here are some future verses suggestions: Mace Windu vs Count Dooku Darth Sideous vs Darth Krayt Lucien Draay vs Kit Fisto (The battle of the Shi Cho masters) Exar Kun vs Mace Windu Count Dooku vs Obi Wan Kenobi (Makashi vs Soresu) Count Dooku vs Darth Maul Darth Maul Vs Mara Jade Jaina Solo vs Mara Jade Thanks again for Season 4 Evannova95. :)
Darth Tenebrous Revan has the problem of being a protagonist from a video game. Much of his other appearances don't give much credibility to him. Making a battle with him would be too much trouble. As seen in the video where he fought skywalker.
A lot of well stated points, much respect on the research and video visuals. The part where I broke off was at your end assessment where you said he was a one trick pony and that he didn't have enough shock value. I would argue that the weapon diversity added to the shock value and made him the opposite of a one trick pony. That being said I see your logic in regards to his opponent (ie. having essentially a mech suit). Also I know you are dealing with darksiders so your narration voice should reflect that however sometimes its just a bit too much. (Loads better than your story of Grevious video). A lighter inflection or personality would help hold my attention considering these versus series are getting longer and longer. Some constructive criticism. Just my two cents. Overall a great video and keep up the good work.
I recognize "Once Upon a December" in Caedus' intro. That was used in some Darth Wyyrlok III videos, last I recall. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! There was never a doubt in mind as to who would win this fight! When the Imperial March played, I gave an evil, maniacal laugh like this one! Meanwhile, looking forward to Season 5. By the looks of it, we'll be getting more from Obi-Wan than just a "Hello there." LOL
It seems Lord Vader was simply too much for his grandson to handle. I expected as much. Yoda and Kun would've been overwhelmed by him eventually in my opinion but it seems Vader just had the right set of tools for the job. A hard won victory but a strong victory none the less.
josiah jenks You overestimate Yoda too much in my opinion. It's possible Yoda could out fence him but I don't think Yoda in his old age has what it takes to fight Jacen Solo.
Well actually of the three vader is possibly the best so I don't believe exar kun could have even come close to overwhelming him yoda may have but I doubt it because as a deulist vader is better than Both and his force abilities are more powerful that both
Well actually of the three vader is possibly the best so I don't believe exar kun could have even come close to overwhelming him yoda may have but I doubt it because as a deulist vader is better than Both and his force abilities are more powerful that both in magnitude than both
Good verdict :) Felt a little like you were playing to the Caedus fans in places but by the end it really made the video. Bouncing back and forward, focusing on the points that those biased to each party would focus on and addressing them. Well done :)
Lawrence Jones it wouldn't last long because obi-wan is weak against telekinesis attacks and zannah can use force blast since she was a kid, and obi-wan not being an aggressive fighter she would have plenty of time to overwhelm him with her fore ability
All I can way is wow to how vastly you underplayed Caedus'. You seemed to brush aside vaders weaknesses but capitalized on Caedus'. And since when has Katarn ever been on par with Caedus? That duel was not inconclusive either. Kyle got beat and he had numbers on his side. Caedus was even still weak from a past fight. Mara even had the advantage of surprise and Caedus still won. Diplomat niman user? That is a horrible underestimation. If not in the same leagues of krayt and kun, Caedus should be right beneath them. He stepped toe to toe with luke, beat mara jade, and kyle katarn. Two of these fights with the cards stacked against him and he lost the fight to luke due to ben skywalkers interference, but he did have thr initial advantage. And the fight with Jaina she was being aided by Luke and instead of fighting he took the chance to warn tenel ka. You acted like these victories were in his favor but it was the complete opposite. He had everything going against him. This is like Hoth vs Bane all over again. I'm not saying Caedus should have won but at least 5-6/10 he would. Give him his credit.
Nice to finally see Vader get his due! So much has been made of Vader's force limitations in recent years that people forget what a menacing villain he truly was! Although he may never have reached his original force potential, this still left him more skilled and more powerful in the force than all but a few other force users. If any run of the mill Darksider with force lightning could stomp Vader, than any number of Imperial, Darkside minions could have replaced him as The Emperor's apprentice. But they didn't, because they couldn't. Vader would have crushed any one of them like an insect with his superior lightsaber skills, superior defensive abilities, superior strength, superior tactics and superior connection to the force. DARTH VADER IS THE TRUE DARKLORD OF THE SITH.
Evan, enjoyed your video as always.Excellent preparation & delivery.I don't always agree with your conclusions, but they're always done very well.I do, however , agree with this one, although I do see that it could go the other way.Thank-you very much fore you're videos, Dante.
That was bloody sweet nice work and thank you for doing these. I can't speak for everyone but i really do appreciate all the stuff you guys do for these VERSUS SERIES VIDEOS and here is my suggestion :D respect dude. Leia Solo vs Darth Maul :D
clementex2 I feel that statement is completely false since Caedus has not won one single lightsaber duel without retreating tactics and Vader has experience with duelist similar to the ones Caedus faced and won through skill
@@thepancakespy2355 truth be told I don't quite know how you've looked at Caedus's record and come to that conclusion. Caedus is one of those bizarrely underrated combatants and people who criticise his performance often neglect to mention the numerous disadvantagous circumstances he laboured under.
clementex2 Don't forget that Vader has killed the most Jedi in history, I think Caedus is the better force user as he was able to travel in time, Vader gets the physicality edge because he could litterly just yeet opponents with his bare hands. I would say Vader wins 7/10, while Caedus definetly has the greater force ability, Vader is just to great of a duelist than Caedus.
I gotta be honest, it´s ridiculous how much you downplayed Caedus. He kept up with a Luke in a straight lightsaber duel that was multiple times as strong as the Luke Skywalker who DEFEATED Vader. They were so fast that trained jedi couldnt see Caedus and Luke during their duel. Also, you missed a lot of force feats from Caedus such as: -Absorbing a turbo-laser -Influencing the whole galactic council -Influencing a MASSIVE crowd to split up so he can walk through them -Tricking whole FLEETS with strong illusions -Turning his pain into a source of strength
From what i read, when Jason disappeared for 5 years he learned things that no other jedi or sith learned leading me to believe Vader would be toast; and Jaina would not even be close, but that is the problem when writers don't follow common sense. By the way I thought turning Jason dark was a dumb idea, he should have been the greatest jedi ever. IMO.
+idarthcadeus Originally, Anakin Solo was to be the one to end the Vong War and become the Hero of the NJO Era. However, an editorial mandate saw Anakin die and his role switched with Jacen.
+EvanNova95 Yeah, Lucas thought people would be confused by the two Anakin's. Which was more than a little condescending to his audience if you ask me. @idarthcadeus, Anakin Skywalker should've been the greatest jedi ever too, remember?
Confirmed Sociopath They were equal in strength with different aspects. Jaina was more techno-savy, like Anakin. While Jacen was more in tune with nature, like Ezra Bridger.
Caedus should get the physical edge. The very same thing that grants Vader his protection and chemicals boosting him, his suit, is also the cause of his weakness: less agility, mobility, flexibility, not to mention his life support systems, which if fried via force lightning, effectively means a gradual death sentence for him. Just because Vader's style is partially designed to defend his weak spots, that doesn't eliminate them as potential weaknesses. Caedus on the other hand only has advantages. He's still incredibly fast, agile, and flexible, yet his ability to virtually ignore pain has no such disadvantages like Vader's suit. 8:10-8:20, what? Whom has Vader fought whom has superior speed than Caedus? Caedus surprised Grandmaster Luke with his speed in their duel... that's Luke in his prime. And you showed a picture or two of Vader's fight with Anya Kuro here as an example of the quick opponents Vader's faced. However, he only defeated her by trapping her under a tree. He didn't outright defeat her via lightsaber combat. While I still agree that Vader's handled opponents whom were quicker and more agile than he was, he definitely struggled against them. And that should factor into things, considering how crazy fast Caedus could be when he wanted to be. 24:50-25:01, true, he wasn't able to defeat them through pure lightsaber combat, but then again, neither Mara Jade nor Jaina Solo were able to defeat *him* through pure lightsaber combat either. 25:57-26:09, more like, if he's at a severe set-back against his opponent (which is the only reason he lost to Jaina, and partially the reason Mara Jade was almost able to kill him)... While I can somewhat agree to Vader getting the edge as a duelist, their disparity is nowhere near as great as you made it seem. I think you largely underrate Caedus as a duelist. He wasn't just considered a master swordsman at some random point in his life by most of the leaders of the Jedi Order of that time, he was considered to be so specifically shortly after constructing his first lightsaber. In other words, in the mere beginning stages of being a Padawan, he was considered by the best Jedi of that time to be a master swordsman... and he only got better. Furthermore, let's compare. While Vader does have more combat experience, Jacen learned lightsaber combat (as well as the ways of the Force) at a very young and formative age, notably younger than when Anakin began learning the ways of the Jedi. And you're assessment of his dueling abilities is almost entirely assumption. Caedus pretty much only using Niman, and specializing in it to a fault is not canon, but an educated guess on your part, and part of what you used to back that up was how he lost to some of the best duelists and fighters of his time (2 of which he only lost to / was losing to because of the circumstances and other factors)? That doesn't make too much sense. He was losing to Mara Jade because she surprise attacked him, injuring his leg, then buried him under a pile of bricks and mortar with a trap, and fought him in small cave/tunnel area where her weapons, a shoto and a vibroblade, were a huge advantage to her compared to Caedus' normal-sized lightsaber for him. He only lost to his sister Jaina because he was terribly injured, and Luke was aiding Jaina by using some kind of battle meditation to bolster her abilities, and he was projecting himself onto Jaina to make it seem to Caedus as if he were somehow fighting Luke instead of Jaina. Because he feared Luke above all else, besides his vision of the dark future he was trying to prevent, this obviously affected the fight too. The only other two of note are Luke and Kyle, and his fight with Luke isn't needed to be gone over very much; all that's needed to be said is what I've already said about it. With his fight with Katarn, yes, Katarn is probably the superior all-around duelist, but to be fair, he's the frickin' Jedi battlemaster of the New Jedi Order, and arguably among the top 5 duelists of that particular time. The fact that Caedus faced both Luke and Kyle and held his own is impressive, and speaks to his abilities. 28:14-28:19, yes, and Caedus moved almost too fast for Luke to notice. That's a fair bit faster than the human eye can see, to say the least. 30:50-30:56, wrong. Force deflection and Tutaminis are not the same thing. The closest thing to deflection one can do with Tutaminis is absorbing the energy, then redirecting it (or even putting some of one's own power and energy into it before redirecting it). With deflection, there's no absorbing, and it's far tougher to redirect it at a specific target. Usually it just 'deflects' something or things away from oneself. Anyway, point is it's debatable whether Vader can actually use Tutaminis, what with his artificial limbs. And before you think of The Empire Strikes Back where Han shoots at Vader... if you watch closely, Vader does not absorb or dissipate those blaster bolts. They explode... as if Vader put up a small barrier/shield with the Force. This is an act of force deflection, not Tutaminis. Regarding Vader's "defenses" against force lightning... his insulation within his suit wouldn't do shit. The conclusion in the fight between Starkiller and Vader in The Force Unleashed II was bullshit. There's no way Vader would've been able to withstand that level of force lightning. The electronet (not related to The Force Unleashed), or whatever it was called was understandably and reasonably not strong enough to really do anything to Vader, but the likes of Starkiller's boosted force lightning? No, that's bogus. They were fun games, but you can't take The Force Unleashed games seriously as it pertains to the abilities of Star Wars characters. The game's very creators even said something to the effect of: they wanted to make a Star Wars game where the Force powers were on steroids. In other words, things were exaggerated. Vader's ability to use his lightsaber against force lightning is perhaps his most viable defense, however it's not an absolute perfect defense against force lightning. If any of Caedus' force lightning were to strike Vader, it'd basically be over... not immediately of course, but Vader would be hindered, and gradually get worse and worse until he was helpless against Caedus. And about Sidious being such a great force lightning user... he was, and Caedus, while probably not quite as proficient, was easily proficient enough to where his force lightning would overload Vader's life-support systems. Here's my counter-verdict: Vader lost against Luke in Return of the Jedi, while Caedus managed to not be defeated by Luke in his prime. There are factors to take into consideration however, like: Vader (somewhat Anakin at this point) was probably holding back in his final fight against Luke in the second deathstar; Luke defeated Vader through use of force rage; in the fight between Luke and Caedus, Luke was clearly superior (however Caedus did manage to almost cut Luke's arm off during their fight through a remarkable display of speed that surprised even Luke). As I said, these factors need to be considered, however there's a huge difference between Ep. 6 Luke and GM Luke. To me at least, the mere fact that Caedus wasn't defeated outright by GM Luke indicates he's superior to Vader. I agree that Vader is the better technical duelist between Caedus and him, however I still think Caedus would win. His masterful proficiency with force augmentation, especially his use of it to ignore pain and move at speeds which surprised even Grandmaster Luke, plus his ability with shatterpoints I think places him above Vader. Vader's never faced an opponent like Caedus, yet Caedus has faced numerous opponents around *and above* Vader's level... some of whom he faced with a severe set-back. Caedus is reasonably the most likely victor.
***** No way. We've had to have agreed on something else sometime, right? ;) But yeah, Evan needs to do a better job with his videos. They are of course good, in production-value I guess for Star Wars versus videos, but he sure sucks when it comes to his "educated" opinion on whom would win.
Aren't you forgetting that Darth Plagueis mentioned to his apprentice that physical damage, & limitations while having the potential to handicap a force wielder didn't inherently damage the force wielder's connection to the force. Darth Plagueis mentioned something about it ultimately resting on the force wielder's state of mind, & Vader wasn't just physically broken, he was also mentally broken by all he had lost (also his inability to get over the loss of Padme).
I love Vader. I like him much more than Caedus; but I call bullshit on the outcome. Caedus is leaps and bounds stronger in the force and as a lightsaber duelist. You give Vader waaaaay too much credit
VEGITAS4 LMAOOOOO, GREAT JOB..... You just proved you know absolutely NOTHING about Star Wars at all. “Leaps and bounds stronger” ...... What an idiot. You DO Vader was THEE best lightsaber duelist IN all of Star Wars right?? NOBODY was “leaps and bounds” ahead of him as a lightsaber combatant you daft fool, sooo what in the actual fuck are you even talking about..... PLEASE, just stop already. You’ve literally just embarrassed yourself with that blatantly incompetent statement. Just stop. You know absolutely nothing and you’ve proven it beyond any doubt. Again, GREAT job 🐸🐸🐸
EvanNova95 Hey man, I've been watching your videos quite a lot lately and I must say I really like your in depth analysis of the star wars galaxy along with its own characters! I hope you continue your awesome Vs' series as I do enjoy your own comments and arguments on the topics! Keep up the good work, man! :)
Oh sweetness, man! By the way, if you don't mind me suggesting a particular face off, how about Darth Vader vs Kyle Katarn? I hope to see the upcoming season and I wish you the utmost luck!
I think maybe it is overlooked that Caedus often adapted his own tactics to combat his opponents and also as far as his final fight with his sister, for her to defeat him it was only possible after a grievous wound and having his attention split between combating Lukes attempts at altering his perceptions through the force and Caedus trying to warn his wife of the danger she and their daughter were in all on top of the physical and force combat going on between him and Jaina. I would think this would count as a display of how he could adapt to and counter the tactics of someone like Vader who depends on his aggression and his ability to over power his opponents. This is, of course, assuming that they are both unhindered and fresh at the beginning of their match.
Vader let Luke win cause that was his son. and the emperor wanted him . if wanted to kill Luke he could have easily done it . so let's give Vader some credit after Vader lost to obe wan Vader perfected his craft over the years he has to many styles he is to versatile he knows to many styles and he is a defensive master
ANONYMOUS nope savage holds his own and overpowered anakin and obi wan in one fight he also beat ventress and held his own against Dooku and sidious pong krell has not shown much skill apart from beating clones which savage did better against without a saber krell was only affective against clones because of his 4 blades savage was stronger in the force and the better fighter he would beat krell
Again, another video when I strongly disagree with your verdict. Darth Caedus should win this, but not easily. Physical ability: Vader > Caedus - Good observation. Both might have similar pain tolerance, but Vader's suit gives him the edge in regards to sheer strength. - But you have to acknowledge that Caedus can fight even with a hole in his chest, while Vader cannot. So this does not necessarily mean that Vader can fight on with blows that would have finished Caedus. Martial Artist/Lightsaber Duelists: Equal, but Caedus has the advantage in speed - Vader's duelling analysis is crisp and accurate. - Caedus' duel with Katarn wasn't inconclusive. Caedus destroyed Katarn alongside his team. - When Jacen duelled Mara, Mara had the advantage of surprising Jacen. Mara had the environment advantage and it was Jacen's ability to adapt that enabled him to survive Mara's onslaught. It is due to the inconsistencies, but as Caedus he outclasses Mara as a duelist. - What the hell? Katarn outclass Caedus as swordsman? There was no instance when Katarn had the upper hand against Caedus in that duel, and Katarn had the advantage of numbers. Caedus himself wasn't even fighting at full strength, having been injured from his previous duel with Luke. If Caedus is at full strength, he will walk over Katarn. - Since when was Jaina the superior duelist? Caedus grossly outclasses her. You forgot to mention that Caedus wasn't even interested in fighting Jaina, and his objective was protecting his daughter. Jaina also surprised him with, if im not mistaken, a stab to the chest. So Caedus wasn't even fighting at his full strength. In addition, Jaina was aided by Luke in the force. - Caedus wasn't even trying to kill Jaina. He just wants to complete his objective. And even then, Caedus had the option to take Jaina down with her, but didn't want to. So If Caedus really tried, he would walk all over her. - Caedus dosen't play cheap as you said. All your examples show that Caedus is extremely skilled in using his surroundings to his advantage, and nothing more than that. - You placed hardly mention on his duel with Luke, when Caedus impressively fought against a bloodlusted Luke Skywalker into a stalemate, and only lost when Ben interfered with a stab from the vibroblade. This feat alone speaks into grandmaster levels with his ability with the blade. - But I am convinced that at the VERY most, Vader and Caedus are approximate equals with the blade, but Caedus is superior in terms of speed. Force abilities: Caedus >> Vader - Very thorough analysis, but I believe that a bigger edge should be given to Caedus. - If Caedus can project illusions to defeat Mara, he sure as hell can do the same to Vader, probably to great effect. - Shatterpoints is used to find fatal weaknesses in his opponent's techniques, so it will play a role here in this contest. - So that being said, Jacen's esoteric force powers will still be too much for Vader to handle. Verdict: Darth Caedus beats Vader 6-7/10 times, due to his superior variety in force powers and raw speed in lightsaber combat. A more balanced matchup, one that I said probably over a thousand times, is Yoda vs Caedus. This matchup in my opinion is more even and can go either way.
clementex2 I kind of agree with you. I think Evan was too quick to dismiss Caedus in pretty much every area. Caedus felt like a massive threat at all times in the Legacy of the Force series. I remember thinking that only Luke really had a chance to take him down, Jaina only doing so after receiving training from Boba Fett in unconventional fighting skills and trickery. Darth Caedus is one of my favourite parts of the old Expanded Universe, and in my mind he should be up there with Vader and Sidious as one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. I'm not sure if Caedus should have one, but it definately should have been more of a contest. I really don't think Caedus is as weak as EvanNova made him out to be. Thanks for the Video +EvanNova95, but I really think you have grossly mis-represented Caedus.
Plasticcaz It feels like he brushes off every weakness of Vader, and minimizes every strength of Caedus, while puttting a lot of focus on his weakness.
clementex2 Agreed. With how he treated force abilities, Vader might as well be> than Palpatine, which is false. Was Caedus's duel on the Anakin Solo Lightsaber exclusive? (I forgot)
Desolator Storm Which one? His duel with Jaina? Or the one with Luke? Evan placed way too much emphasis on his duel with Jaina to put forth incorrect interpretations about Caedus, while placing absolutely zero on his duel with Luke.
Wow! Great analysis! Although I do have a few minor queries, all in all I agree! You went very in depth and I applaud your knowledge! My problems are only very minor and won't change things too dramatically, if at all, so I will not bother to voice them here, but I have some none the less. Just know that your earned yourself a subscriber today!
i'm not even that huge of a star wars nerd (not an offencive term in my books! hope it's mutual), i do very much love these versus series of yours. nicely researched, well argumented and overal very relaxing and informative to listen to, it's a joy to see another one of these pop up in my inbox. here's to season 5, and i hope Meetra Surik get's her episode one day, cause by god i need that! also, i just have to say, your voice is a charm to listen to, relaxing, calming, amazing. i could listen to it all day long. keep up the amazing work dude, i'll be here listening!
True Drake Thank You I appreciate the support. Also, Meetra Surik isn't really a character one could use in a Versus Match because she doesn't have very manny measurable feats. The bulk of her info comes from KOTOR 2 where she is controlled by the player and her appearance in the REVAN Novel isn't substantial enough to draw any sort of concrete information about how she fights. Sorry If that answer was a bit long winded, I just get that question a lot.
***** The Exile has the same problem Revan does. Both are mostly based on how a person played them in their respective games...and only have one real book about them, in which the author knew nothing about KoTOR 2. Also, Savage Oppress is a shit character and shouldn't have gotten any kills. Zannah mind rapes the shit out him and he dies like the piece of shit he and TCW is.
Well done. I normally give you a hard time on your videos but you called this contest as you saw it. I am a fan of the Legacy of the Jedi as well. Fantastic work man, keep it up!
I like your video a lot, though i feel like you underestimated Caedus. For me it kinda seemed as if you made a decision ahead of time, and then "played" the facts to Vaders side. Just my opinion though, still great video!:))
@@tiredjediknight3110 Raw power. Yes, Caedus had more force ABILITIES, but Vader was more powerfull than him in pure sense of that word. Also, he was much more connected to the dark side, caedus was more like dooku in this sense, except the moments where he uses his pain to hain more power. And this is kinda the thing, Vader vs Caedus is basically Vader vs Dooku and Sion combined, if he manages the latter, Caedus looses.
@@emzonik8851 Caedus has every conceivable advantage over Vader with the exception of raw power in the force and even then not to such a degree it would be likely to have any significant impact upon a contest between the two. It’s really as simple as that. Could Vader win? Sure it’s possible. Is he likely to be the winner 9 times out of 10? Not at all.
This video is poor. Your research is shoddy and based on a love of one character over another. To put it simply and logically: Vader vs Caedus is physical vs force, Caedus undeniably has more force potential than Vader and the Dark side can allow you to tap into it more readily though emotions. Why is it undeniable? Han Solo is force sensitive in the Expanded Universe and so is Leia and force potential is based on familial blood rather than parental phenotype so their children could've been nulls in the force or above Anakin Skywalker's level (it is unknown if Padme was force sensitive but for your sake I will go with no thus the extra juice the Solo blood provided is the only difference between the two which is still a formidable difference once you take into account Vader's less than stellar limb status). The fight would be a brutal one as it would literally be up to the first one to make a mistake ( Vader exposing a shatter point in his armor or, worse, cybernetics or Caedus straying to close and getting whacked like a overripe tomato ) and not the roflstomp you incorrectly claim as Vader could just as easily enrage Caedus sufficiently to tap into a higher level of force ability and shock the every loving shit out of Vader with force lightning targeting shatter points as Vader wouldn't be able to catch an equal caliber force sensitive using augmented speed let alone one slightly above him. Now I will also shoot apart one of you claims: Darth Caedus if he sees sufficient need for it could become one with the force again because of the reason why he became a sith in the first place and namely to protect the galaxy *regardless of any price paid*. And finally: If you're gonna quote a damn saying quote it fully "Jack of all trades, master of none, *but ofttimes better than master of one* ." . You've tried to make a force user that is specialized in lightsaber abilities and who's force abilities are nulled if they face a equally trained, equally potent force user seem like a default winner but the truth of the matter is the fight would be down to the first guy to make a mistake... and they're both fallen jedi (so not too stable on the rage front)... so it would be utterly random.
This comparison is absurd. Jacen Solo is the most powerful Jedi in the EU up until his death. He's done feats that neither Luke Skywalker or Palpatine have done. The only real weakness Jacen had is the that the writers decided to throw every bit of character progression he had throughout his arc and randomly decide to make him evil for the most contrived of reasons. It's also laughable that they decided Jaina would be the one to beat him, when she has never been the swordsman or force user her brother has, opting instead to develop her skills as a master pilot and mechanical engineer.
+derek96720 I do agree but I will point out that Luke figures out a lot of the rare powers that Jacen used or learns them from their original sources. Also I think you underestimating Jaina's skill. Unlike Jacen who got the "your pretty good" rating Jaina was literally given the title Sword of the Jedi by Luke.
We got so many Jacen fanboys who have no objectivity anyway, and can't apply any creative thinking or unbiased views, that it drowns out the people here who are making legitimate arguments in his favor and aren't biased. That out of the way. I believe if you look at this situation objectively and unbiased, Jacen objectively stands no chance against Vader, who is far more powerful, more accomplished in terms of superior feats, and the greatest Lightsaber duelist ever. He has been stated as being either the most powerful force user, or second most depending on if you believe Palpatine is the first of second. Jacen can't even come close. But that's not an insult to Jacen, as very few characters could stand a chance against Vader. Good analysis and a great video!
Well he wasn't the 2'nd most powerfull force user, don't forget Valkorion/Viteate, who can even be viewed as more powerfull than Sidious. Also I belive that there is also a few antient sith lords a bit more powerfull than him Vader. And, depending if you consider tfu canon, Starkiller, who wasn't way more powerfull, but did beat Vader. Anyway, Caedus looses to him, true.
Hey EvanNova95 could you possibly do Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Nihilus or Kyle Katarn vs Darth Bane? :D Also I love all your VS vids, please don't ever stop. :)
Look at Grievous, he is super nimble and strong. If Vaders augmentations were the result of rushing, why not later on replace his parts with upgraded tech? Tech should be even further along than it was in grievous's time, that doesn't make sense....
+Xyos212 As far as I know Darth Sidious deliberately used Older tech while making him so He doesn't grow to strong and try to overthrow Sidious. Sidious was too afraid of Vader, so Vader never got a real upgrade besides some minor changes and calibrations.
+Xyos212 Vaders suit was added onto his organic body in order to preserve his ability to use the force, Grievous had a suit designed to make a nonforce user deadly with a lightsaber. So they could have made Vader stronger, faster and more agile, however it would already weaken his limited connection to the force.
chris55268 Thats a big assumption. Legs for instance: Those quick robot legs could of been added to Vader. I already know the answer: Couldn't present that back then in the 70's and 80's, and we just wrap the lore around the limitations of the time. Thats fine, but lets not pretend there is a logical reason why he is so slow...
For the next season, i would recommend to see Jaina solo, plo koon, shaak ti, anakin as a jedi knight, Mara Jade or yoda vs galen marek. Maybe one of them interests you, other than that, I love your channel! It's awesome! Keep up the great work!
A fitting end to a brilliant season! Darth Caedus sounds kind of like a poor mans Exar Kun to me. I would like to suggest The Inquisitor from rebels vs Ahsoka Tano, though if there is not enough information on The Inquisitor, then I suggest Dark Jedi Bariss Offe vs Darth Talon.
You totally down played Darth Caedus and his abilities. By the time Luke was grandmaster he was far beyond Vader. Caedus was on Luke's level when they fought and I think he'd take Vader.
If you say Caedus was on Lukes level, that equals him being the most powerfull sith in existance, more powerfull than Palpatine. And that is a rediculous statement. And, remember, even though, of course, Palpatine would crush Vader any time, given that he was not only more powerfull, but also knew much more force abilities, George Lucas said, Vader in pure power is 80% as powerfull as Palpatine. That means he was extremely powerfull. If Caedus wins the fight with Vader, that must be due to specific force powers, Vader was unprepared for. Becouse in raw power, Caedus looses.
Even a year later I still disagree with your points. Caedus was a good enough duelist to survive duels with Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade Skywalker, Jaina Solo and Kyle Katarn. Luke and Kyle are both superior to Vader in terms of swordsmenship by my assessment, and Mara and Jaina were both notable Swordswomen, in Mara`s case with insane amounts of combative experience. I think you several underestimate Jacen in terms of his lightsaber skills. He might not be one of the greats, but he was certainly good enough to keep up with them long enough to bring his force powers to bare, something that is clearly shown in his fight with Kyle. While he was outmatched in terms of lightsaber duelling, he managed to keep up long enough to find a way around the BATTLEMASTER! Looking at some of his other feats as a swordsman he was able to take on Juuzhan Vong, not a mean feat in itself, pointing to a high amount of skill considering how easily other Jedi fell to those. Jacen also had several force abilities that would certainly take Vader out of the fight, among other things force illusions, that conjured up the fears of an individual (similiar to Darth Zannah). This would have a destructive effect on Vader`s already weak mental state. Also, Jacen studied Vader like a maniac (I call that Kylo Renning now), even going so far as to flow walk to see him live in action, and probably knew all about his fighting style and abilities, meaning he would know how to cope with them (guessing by Jacen`s approach to everything he would study, learn, and overcome the problem). Jacen also had the ability to influence electrical devices (using his force ability to screw around with monitors and vital readings and stuff) and I wouldn`t put it past him to be able to influence Vader`s suit. Not to mention the fact that force lighting still, no matter how strong or weak, posed a challange to Vader, and if struck, would cause his suit to malfunction or plainly give out. Yes, he can defend against it, but looking at the way Caedus usually fights, he would sneak it in somewhere, hitting Vader, either disabling or hindering him, and the deathblow would follow shortly. Overall, I think you got the logic wrong in your verdict. Vader isn`t good enough to overcome Caedus, Caedus is good enough to overcome Vader.
Very well thought out. I'm going to throw some flame proof clothes your way, because your going to need it. Lots of huge Caedus fan boys out there. I feared you were one of them, but you thought everything out. Great video.
josh gonzalez definitely, Evan heavily downplayed Caedus as a duelist and Force user, while emphasizing the best of Vader. He ignored circumstances surrounding Caedus's duels with Katarn and Jaina and completely left Luke out of it. He did not take into account the level of power Luke had achieved at this point (and who was bloodlusted) when he fought Caedus, and while I agree Caedus would have lost the duel no matter what, I think anyone else aside from Sidious would have lost much much sooner.
Trajan Stinga Of course, of course. And this is why if I were in the star wars universe, I'd run a blood bank, filter and concentrate the midichlorians, and transfuse them into myself.
I don't know how I feel about this. I'm glad that Vader won, but (and this has nothing to do with the combatants) I don't like how you play down the importance of force abilities when compared to lightsaber skills and martial arts. In my opinion, force abilities are ALWAYS more important than martial arts. In conclusion, Lightsaber Skills/Martial Arts: Child's Play - Force Abilities: Perfect All Around Weapon. In my opinion.
Courier Seven Its a consequence of the combatants used in the match. You have one dedicated lightsaber duelist with a very powerful connection to the force going up against a dedicated force wielder with remedial lightsaber skills. Even for someone like me who possesses very much a Jedi Consular Mentality and a preference for the force can't ignore the facts. Ultimately the linchpin for this match WAS going to be their marital arts skills, since they are pretty evenly matched in terms of raw force power. Which is why more emphasis was going to be on that section.
Remedial lightsaber skills... I'm sorry but that's frankly absurd. Unless we're going to assume warriors like GM Luke, Kyle Katarn and Jaina are also at best "remedial".
I may be wrong, but I don't get the impression that EvanNova95 can be impartial in assessing Vaders capabilities & viability. This is the second video that I've seen that Evan has (imo) highly overblown Vaders capabilities. It is obviously totally fine to have a character that you genuinely like or think highly of in spite of their actual limitations but Vader is (again, imo) one of those Star wars characters who could have exceeded his actual endgame limits but as is obvious by his inherent story he got kneecapped by his pride early on in his life & it literally crippled him & his potential. Vader existed amongst non-force users for the vast majority of the time of his "suited" life post Mustafar, he had trouble with decrepit Old Ben Kenobi, of all people! Vader as Anakin was a force (no pun intended) to be reckoned with who was extremely arrogant & he paid for it & it cost him, dearly. Vader is awesome, in his way, yes. But Vader is also severely limited at the exact same time & those crippling limitations prevent him from competing with other high level force users, especially Sith lords. I don't hate Vader, but let's be honest, here?
I think Vader didn't cut Obi wan down because Obi had some super-duper good defenses. Like, really, really, good. And I Think Vader was being careful, because he had a pretty bad experience with Obi when he went all out. I think Vader, even crippled, is more powerful than Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan is really a master at defending and waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Besides, it looks like in that fight that Vader was leading Obi-Wan around anyway.
Great video as always. How about a match between Exar Kun and Darth Krait? You brought them up together and while I was thinking about it that would make an EXCELLENT verses video!
0:15 - Ah see what you did there in terms of the background music when going over Darth Vader's brief synopsis...clever guy! For those who don't get it he used Sky Fall By Adele in a video about a SKYwalker who had FELLED to the dark sided.
Evan, great job and I loved the niman idea diplomate and battlemaster. But for me there is one more based on your assement of Caedous. The shock and awe varient where people like Caedous and more notable Exar Kun really on surprise and unotrthodox tatics to get the job done. Also sujestions for season 5, season 4 was great i loved in except for dooku vs qui gon jinn. Which i believe shouldnt of been done. Since its not surprising or a close match up. But moving on; Obi-Wan vs Corran Horn. Kyle Katarn vs Windu or Revan. Luke vs Yoda. Exar Kun vs Kyp durron or Jaina solo Jaina solo vs satele shan. Darth Caedous vs Revan Plo Koon vs Anakin.
He is not, saying he is is a complete misunderstanding. You could very well say Caedus surpassed Sidious as way younger Luke defeated Sidious while Caedus competed with GM Luke. First of all, Luke fought a greatly weakened Sidious and more importantly, Caedus did NOT win the foght with Luke or even stalemate, he mearly survived it. It was an analogy to Yoda vs Dooku in AOTC. Which is still impressive but not enough to call him Luke's match in any way. Vader was obviously far below GM Luke, but his feats surpass Caedus, even if the latter presents a much greater variety of force abilities. Pure strenght in the force is not the same as skill. Vader had less variate skills but his pure power was undoubtly higher.
No contest darth vader for sure while darth zannah's spells might stagger vader he would work past the spell and face zannah in lightsaber combat and vader would over whelm her in this contest
carson birney Yea I imagine the same outcome. Though I think it would be close, considering that Zannah might use her Sith sorcery to play on Vader's memories as Anakin Skywalker (i.e. Shmi Skywalker dying in Anakin's arms, Padme dying as Vader was being rebuilt). Though since they are memories of someone Vader no longer wanted to be, this would just be considered a failed attempt at Dun Moch. That and while Zannah is a skilled Soresu duelist, she was by no means an Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Form. That and she has had trouble against power duelists like Darth Bane.
the dual light saber was kind of old fashioned and more about intimidation and confusion then practicality, darth bane stated that it was more limited as even though you had 2 lightsabers you were still only contacting one blade at a time and limiting movements. makes sense lol
i love your videos man great job! I personally think you sold caedus a bit short though... and would it be too much to ask to include other characters such as Lumiya or even General Grievous in your videos?
Wouldn't the Clone Troopers be considered the greatest Jedi killers (and not Vader)? They're the ones who actually wiped out the rest of the Jedi during Order 66.
Considering that Vader wiped out all the masters in the temple and most of the Jedi knights in the temple. Add on to this the Jedi he hunted down in the next few years and he has wiped out more Jedi than any clone tropper
I think Vader killed mostly padawans and younglings if I remember correctly. And by the time Order 66 was executed, most of the Jedi would have been wiped out. There wouldn't have been a lot of Jedi left for Vader to kill and the remaining Jedi who did managed to survive would most likely later be killed by Clone Troopers themselves or Inquisitors.
This is bullshit how does Vader win? Jacen did things Vader has never done. Darth Caedus losing to Jaina was bs in itself. But Vader? He lost to a young Luke. Caedus wins this with ease. Jacen feats are much better.
+wally west Darth Vader is stated in the official Book of the Sith as being one of the most powerful Sith Lords in Star Wars history, alongside Darth Malak, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, etc. Caedus isn't mentioned.
Exactly and this fight is often bizarrely misinterpreted as well. Caedus was very clearly in control of that fight and if not for Kyle's jedi back up he'd have been quickly killed.
@@thepancakespy2355 Katarn is easy mode for Caedus. Except for Luke, a very experieneced Gramdmaster Luke, Caedus didnt have any real threats. Jaina caught him at a bad time, smart for her but she was definitely not his match.
@@thepancakespy2355 Nonsense. Caedus's first strike against Katarn would have severed the Jedi masters leg had his back up not intervened. That's not desperation, that's being a superior combatant. This is one of those points against Katarn that makes absolutely no sense if people have read the book.
Damn I think you made some good points, but kinda undercut Caedus a bit, but then again those points you made were a good contrast. If Bane the Sithari sees this... *flinches* lol.
Kyle messenger of pain/Darth Umbra Luke chopped of Sidious's hand. Many years of getting stronger later even Luke has a tough time fighting Jacen. If he could almost standstill a better and more expirienced version of Luke then he should be able to beat Sidious who lost to a weaker (although still extremely strong) Luke.
No.Luke is actually in a complete different league(he actually did bad vs Jacen) Luke knocked an AT-AT out with a single force push Froze everything during a fight (Its like stoping the time and the only one who could actually do this is Vitate,as Valkorion((Oh and btw,as Valkorion Vitiate has proven to be stronger than Sidious)) He became an immoveable object,even a black hole/whorm hole couldnt move him and nothing could stand his wake
Luke Skywalker probably exaggerated caedus abilities as he could have never gaged Darth Vader's abilities because Darth Vader never faced him with all his might
Thank you for bringing that up. lets all remember luke never faced vader at his peak because vader was always holding back either because palpatine ordered him or his own conflict so luke can't really make an argument for caedus being stronger since he never saw vader at his strongest
@@dimond360_ Caedus faced Luke decades after he beated Vador. At which point he should be confortably superior to the reborn Palpatine, based of his performance in dark empire. Vador until the his death always admitted his inferiority to a weaker version of the sith lord.
Joshua Greger Lmao.. yeaaaa you’re an idiot. Great job proving that in one statement. Vader’s powers are literally the direct opposite of “over-exaggerated” you utter moron. Anakin Skywalker, by ROTS, was thee most powerful Force sensitive in galactic history, and that cannot be disputed. It comes straight from Lucas and countless other Lucasfilm writers, like James Luceno for one, who was like the next best thing to Lucas himself. But Lucas has stated on multiple occasions that after Mustafar, Darth Vader lost roughly 40% of his maximum power level; and yet, he was STILL at roughly 80% the strength of the Emperor. And over the next couple years he regained a LOT of that power. Back to roughly even with sidious. The one, sole reason he couldn’t outright kill him was because of his suit’s over-the-top weakness to electricity. Which is obviously palp’s go-to... Dude Vader would utter annihilate his grandson. The entire NJO was nowhere near the skill or strength of the true Jedi order you idiot. Other than Luke, Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, & the twins, their most powerful masters were equivalent to a low tier like newly knighted Jedi of the ops order. I cannot stand idiots who just suck off the post-ROTJ era like it’s the best thing in Star Wars lmao, it’s literally like the only era that didn’t have any contribution from Lucas. Even the old Republic has a lot of Lucas created content in it. Actually, some of the post-ROTJ books are some of the worst stories in the entire EU. Not to mention literally everything past the NJO series blatantly contradicts the whole Star Wars storyline to begin with. There cannot BE any Sith after Ep6. Period.... According to the old “Canon Hierarchy” the canonical story of Star Wars before Disney took over would have went from ‘Dawn of The Jedi’ up to ‘The Unifying Force’ (excluding Dark Empire). Period.... and besides, I liked Jacen. His story was awesome it would’ve been a whole lot better if he was able to stick to the light like a true Jedi, in a mirror act to his grandfather, after what happened to him in the Yuuzhan Vong War.. It was stupid they turned him into Caedus and had him kill Mara. The whole LOTF & FOTJ era was just awful, even if it did have some pretty dope fights.
Now, even if we DO include that shit into the timeline and say that it somehow doesn’t contradict anything because it “wasn’t the actual Bane lineage-the order of the Sith Lords” anymore because it was this “new sect” or whatever. Or that the prophecy was “brought full circle” when Cade Skywalker killed Darth Krayt & Ania Solo killed Darth Wredd, then well, whatever, ok, but regardless; Vader STILL womps him lmao.........Caedus would not be able to withstand his lightsaber skill. He couldn’t even handle luke or Kyle katarn in straight up Saber combat and Anakin/Vader is literally noted as one of the 3 best swordsmen in Star Wars..... And even after Mustafar he was still far stronger than Caedus ever was. Like I said earlier, he grew back about half of the power he lost on Mustafar. Which-according to Lucas’ own statements-would have put him back up to roughly even with Sidious. If anybody’s powers here are “over-exaggerated” it is Caedus, not Vader...
I mean he got killed by his sister. She wasn’t supposed to be anywhere near his level by that point in terms of raw power. Maybe as a duelist she was supposed to be his equal but not in terms of their power & force connection.... Caedus stands no chance against his grandfather. Especially not when the lightsabers come out. That’s all there is to it.
Anthime Tardif youre an idiot
Vader would have been overwhelmed by luke if he faced his father later than episode 6 as he constantly trained and got stronger. And grandmaster Luke would just have to use the green lightning and vader would die and in a lightsaber fight he would kill him.
See, I believe Niman falls under these categories:
1 The scholar) The type of person the form was geared for. This practitioner uses the form so they're good enough not to die insantly since lightsaber combat isn't their first priority.
Example: Darth Plagueis.
2 The individual) Whoever uses the form in this manor applies the form to create their own style based on their unique preferences.
Example: Kao Cen Darach
3 The tactician) Jack of all trades fighters who adapt to the circumstances and change their style accordingly.
Example: Darth Krayt
Eltrio2 Interesting
Very interesting interpretation of niman
Very good analysis. Rebels/Fulcrum Ahsoka definetely falls into the Individual Niman category. She started off as a Shien/Ataru combatant, then shifted into Jar'Kai while still keeping these forms as predominant.
In Rebels, the opposite is true. Her Jar'Kai has become the backbone and she relies much more on Force Pushes, thus making her more a Niman specialist, with elements of Shien used for parries and Ataru for occasional use of acrobatics or unarmed combat.
Episode 7 should've been about Caedus, not Kylo Ren, who agrees with me?
Kylo is jacen just a shittier version.
Brian Nielsen Wow, learn some english, then try to talk to me kid.
+Group ADK yep
jacen fell to the dark side because he was so traumatized by the yuuzhan vong war he felt that the only way to stop something like that ever happening again was completley controlling the galaxy personally
kylo fell because he was an edgelord with a vader fetish
+Jerec 12 In defense of Kylo, we don't know what has lured him to the dark side yet.
Also for some reason I find Snoke more intimidating and probably a better mentor than Lumiyah. Just personal opinion on that one.
yeah it should.If it ain't broken don't fix it.The only reason Disney changed the plot must be because people already read the comics.But the bullshit that pissed me of is that the force unleashed is non canon anymore.It will always be canon for me
dude jacen became the most badass dark lord of the sith ever, the flow walking alone made him invincible, the only reason he lost to jaina is because he stopped fighting her when he was desperately trying to save his daughter and her mother, he wasn't beaten, he sacrificed himself to his sister to save his daughter while trying really hard to not kill his sister who was trying desperately to kill him.
+1 that's my obsevation too. Even after train by Boba Fett + Jacen was fooled by Luke, Jaina didn't stand a chance. He managed to fight Luke toe to toe and punch him in the face. Luke already said Jacen to be more powerful but......he just decided to call it "overestimate".
marco feola lmao, no, he did not. We get it you’re a blatant fanboy that’s pissed about the outcome. YOUR opinion does not make him the “best” lmfaooooo. That is literally thee most narcissistic thing I’ve ever heard. Vader would bend him over his knee and give his grandson a whippin. Period
very true, caedus wins
@@dazdavis7896 you call another a fanboy while you're literally rantting without any proof
@@shuoyang6961 “ranting without any proof” lmfao, yeah you’re an idiot.
Not agreeing with your analogy, Jacen Solo being "yeah you're okay" in lightsaber dueling. He held his own against Grandmaster Luke, who was leagues better than ROTJ Luke. He was at a stalemate until Ben Skywalker stabbed him in the back with a vibroblade. Furthermore he almost killed Jaina even with a severed arm, due to Luke creating an illusion.
Force powers far superior. Force lightning, communicating with the World Mind/animals, seeing into the future, etc... He was a powerhouse, who, like Anakin, was conflicted and didn't fully embrace the darkside, as his love for his family, and lack of certainty in his actions clouded his mind.
+Robert Haack thats far bu I think the term used was more of a your better than most people rather than your OK. the latter sounds more like just being a competent fighter which clearly Jacen was better than.
Darth Kiedis did embrace the Darkside he just used it in a different way from past Sith Lords
@@naseemweathers8358 LOL ruclips.net/video/41b-ZL5vSmc/видео.html
In his Fighter with Luke Jacen only damaged Luke because his injury
Jaina would've surpassed him by the time of FOTJ Apocalypse and Luke is stronger than both
Vader: Your thoughts betray you Jacen. The Force is strong with you. But you are not a true Sith yet.
+Tre' Montana ummmm ...Jacen was one of the most accomplished and learned sith ever.... he also had the sith battle meld which even vader did not have, as admitted by lumya
+Ezra Kelly He was not the strongest ever, there is Krayt, Sidious (although I'm not sure how that would go) and many old republic Sith and many others
+Some Pig he is like number 2
josh gonzalez Caedus? He wouldn't be number 2, somewhere around 7th and you can look at top 10s to find out or do some research, quite a few Sith would beat him (although maybe not easily)
Some Pig like who
You all are nerds. "Sniff" I'm home
Seth wutzke your name is Seth Wutzle. That automatically makes you a super nerd
Case kylo ran was alive and he already died
Osman Shah Your name is Osman. Super nerd.
Nerds rules the world !
I respectfully disagree with your judgment of Caedus' combat abilities. One of the most common problems is people underestimating his skill, and the fact is that Caedus was not a jack of all trades, master of none, but in fact a much more dangerous and deadly opponent than most people credit him as.
My own analysis of Caedus' lightsaber skills actually suggests something more like Vader's own style. A mixture of the power strikes associated with Form V with a working and applied knowledge of other forms of combat, making him a dangerous opponent. This mixed with his knowledge of the Force gives him an edge.
Then you forgot one of the most important factors of his battle with Jaina, Caedus was distracted during that fight. Yes, he fought as hard as he could, but the entire battle was something that he had no time to prepare for, and on top of that he at the time was trying to warn Tenel Ka about the nanokiller, which kept him from fighting at his full strength because of the distraction. In a straight, one on one fight, with no distractions, Caedus is a powerhouse duelist who could have won.
Finally you didn't account for one major factor, knowledge of the opponent. Caedus would have been familiar with not only Vader's combat style, but also his shortcomings, and weaknesses that Caedus would've been willing to exploit like he did against Mara Jade.
All and all, its not a bad video, but you sold Caedus too short.
Darth Judicar Thank you. Holy crap, Evan severely downplayed Caedus in this video.
Not to mention that Jaina was heavily aided by Luke in the force. Without this huge amp even a distracted Caedus would have floored her.
Like I said in my own comment, Caedus is probably too fast for Vader to keep up, and his ability to exploit weaknesses and surroundings to his advantage will play a decisive role in his victory against Vader.
clementex2 Glad you agree.
Darth Judicar well Evan did use more than just Jaina vs Caedus as evidence and usually Evan's vs series just plainly puts opponents to the ring without any background knowledge of each other. I kind of disagree that finding Vader's shortcoming and exploiting it would be a good idea, two things can happen, one it does work and Caedus does have a chance to exploit the opportunity, or two Vader sees through the illusion and tries to hack Caedus down. And if you mean by lightsaber sequence, that is a little harder to engage, because (though I do not know the knowledge of Caedus' tactical play on the battlefield) Vader is tactical in battle, knowing what his opponents will do and counter. However, I do feel that Caedus was underestimated.....this match should be almost equal, even edge in lightsaber dueling, almost even in force prowess and own edge in weaponry and physical attributes.......Other than that TO EACH THEIR OWN.....PLEASE DON'T KILL ME
Darth Judicar That's my problem with the ending of Legacy, Caedus should have destroyed Jaina, she was no match for him and never would be. I think the series would've ended better with him surviving and being present during the Abeloth and Lost tribe situation.
Finally someone who gets it there is no way luke wouldn't have trained his students to fight against someone like Vader he would have explained all that he knew about Vader and Caedus being the genius swordsman he was would have used his knowledge of Vader to get the upper hand if he couldnt do that he would prevent such an end as Evan believe would happen
Such a shame the EU was deemed non canon it’s so much better than Episode 7 and Caedus is a much better character than Ren.
@Wes Bradley-Taubner exactly nobody gives a shit. They don’t get to say things that George Lucas directly approved-like the NJO novel series for example-don’t exist. Too bad. Yes it does. Disney is legends. Legends is canon. It’s really easy.
Agreed but I will say New Canon has brought on some good characters like the bad batch Ahsoka Tano and even Captain Rex
I can't get over jack of all trades, grossly overspecialized, and Katarn and Jaina being "more balanced" in the same description of Caedus.
+Christian Moore neither can I
I agree Caedus’s whole thing is how balanced in the force he is. He spent 5 years studying and training with force abilities from force orders all over the galaxy
Actually, Vader had his own variant of Force Lightning. He could use the Force to manipulate the atmosphere and cause lightning storms to happen naturally
When has he has ever done that?
@@brucejedilee5290 The Force Unleashed 2
Wow he's literally god lol
TFU 2 isn't canon
He used Legends Vader in this video though.
Battle of the tacticians
Admiral Thrawn vs Admiral Ackbar
+Worst Scenarios Please. let it happen
Rex the King Sadly it probably wont't happen. I have suggested some really good ideas for over years such as gnost dural vs plo koon but sadly results.
+Worst Scenarios Thrawn rapes.
+Sloth underestimating Ackbar. Thrawn would win though
+Worst Scenarios Thrawn destroys Ackbar. He'd lay a trap within a trap within a trap within a trap. Ackbar would be too busy saying it's a trap to be able to do anything.
While I would ultimately give victory to Caedus (his superiority in Force abbilities is unquestionable) I'm glad that you decided to dispel the myth of Caedus supposed martial might. He's highly skilled and can contend with the best duelists of his era but ONLY contend. Without his Force abbilities he can run into trouble very quickly.
+Maciek Ciepły thats exactly right. this is why he almost lost to Mara. she has master level ability in the force and was able to at least contend with him in this area while is all a dueling specialist needs to have a reasonable chance of winning. Though to be far to Jacen Mara had a lot of other advantages beyond her normal tools/skill set in that specific fight. she would lose a lot of her advantages from that duel if things went according to one of Jacen's plans instead of her own.
@@robrockstar9648 if Mara had been fighting Caedus in a neutral setting she would have lost.
Caedus is a heavily underrated character in certain circles on RUclips. Mara was only able to achieve what she did because she had a favourable environment, had traps set up and had specialised weaponry which didn't limit her ability to fight in that environment whereas Caedus had no such benefits. And that's if we ignore Caedus's performance against Luke and Kyle. Kyle in particular would have been quickly defeated had he not had a jedi strike team at his back.
I knew Darth Vader would win, and I knew you would give him the physical edge, but on his duelling edge, like I said in your Malak Vs. Vader vid, I am not so sure. Force abilities, I can understand where you're coming from on that, and for armament, I thought you would give the edge to Vader, but when the verdict for that section approached, I thought "who's he gonna give this one to?". The tune that played between your finalization of Caedus' inventory and your edge declaration actually scared and frightened me because of my uncertainty, and I do think that I can react strangely in response to musical trauma, as strange as that may be. But you are not to blame, as I was the one who watched this (well made!) video. This was a great video and an awesome way to finish of your fourth season.
LOL ruclips.net/video/41b-ZL5vSmc/видео.html
Unfortunately, when everyone is "one of the most powerful force wielders of his era", the statement begins to lose a lot of weight....
Not really. Many fields from sports to science use that statement and it doesn't lose weight. It simply means how a person or a few people were at the top of their field in that time period. Since you have several eras in SW it's natural to have a decent handful of people who stood head and shoulders above the rest.
@@adalvarthepeaceful Not to mention in these videos the combatants that are used are the top 10s of their era
Its finally here!!! To see of Versus Series Season 4, we're pitting the two big badies of the Skywalker line against each other! Thank You all for a great Season, your guys's love and support is truly what continues to inspire me.
Yes thank u !
EvanNova95 I was just wondering the other day when this would hit!
Obi-Wan!!!
Yes vader won so happy
For match ups
1. Windu vs kyle katarn
2. Sidious vs caedus
3.
3. Dooku vs bane
4. Vitiate vs dooku
5. Anakin before his suit as of ROTS vs Yoda as of ROTS
Interesting assessment of the combatants.
Where I am a total Vader fanboy, I always enjoy hearing how suffisticated and powerful he really was, when compared to the impairments and what not. And, like most versus fights on youtube, the EU characters that I'm not familiar with, I do like learning about new and intereting characters like Caedus.
But throughout the Versus, it was slightly becoming clear that Vader was going to have an edge over Caedus.
This thought recently came into my head; Luke puts Darth Caedus' Force strength above Vader, but which version of Vader did Luke observe? In Episode 5, Vader was just screwing around. In Episode 6, Vader is conflicted and thus wouldn't bring his full capabilities in any aspect, noticeably he could've sliced Luke in half based on what I saw in the film but instead aimed for the platform Luke stood on to prolong the encounter. Thus I'm probably of unpopular opinion that I'm opening the possibility Luke's assessment of both Sith Lords' power in the Force to be inaccurate as he's effectively reading bad data; Vader might actually be stronger than Caedus in the Force for all I know. If not at least I'm inclined to agree with Evan's assessment of the information given.
Caedus is massively superior
Interesting. Still gets dogwalked by Caedus but Vader IS underrated🗣️
The ROTJ novel makes it clear that Vader wasn't conflicted though and was actually enraged and boosted by the dark side
Caedus>>Vader
This is really good stuff. Really well executed. Good production quality. Well worded. And a very exciting battle. If there is one thing I could say, it is that I wanna see Yoda vs Caedus and Exar Kun vs Caedus, as well. ;)
And while I agree with a lot of people in the comments about how powerful Caedus is, I feel they are, at the same time, underestimating Vadar: he didn't get the title of biggest jedi killer of all time in a raffle.
lol legacy of the force novel series describes Caedus on par with grandmaster Luke as both a force user and a swordsman. Taking Caedus as strong as he is by the end of LotF series, Caedus would stomp Vader. Literally no contest, he could probably win the fight with his force abilities alone. The LotF writers truly got out of hand with the abilities they gave him.
Thank you! He - without ego - considered himself a second to his Uncle. He was typically only bested by others when injured or distracted. He's quite simply one of the most skilled and powerful Force/Lightsaber Duelists to have ever lived. IMO, he's a top 10 strongest and most skilled of all time.
C Man
Just recently, I have reread the legacy series, and boy, has Caedus been downplayed this entire video. To add to what you're saying, Evan's analysis on Caedus's style was probably wrong. He might have niman in his arsenal(and is even likely), but most evidence suggests ataru and shien bladework with a touch of makashi footwork. He consistently makes use of slash attacks fully integrated with physical strength, and goes for openings with acrobatics, both trademarks of ataru. In Betrayal, he has a moment when, under heavy blaster fire, it's stated he deflected most of the blasterfire back at them. For most of the blocks being aimed deflection screams shien. Also, against Kyle and Jaina, there were instances of Caedus backing out of reach for an attack, and going back in for a counter attack (against Jaina, using a counter-thrust). This suggest Makashi footwork being an influence.
So, aside from most likely getting his style wrong, Evan downplayed literally every significant duel Caedus had. Mara lured Jacen into a cave that was even stated in the book to make a standard lightsaber useless (whereas Mara dual wielded a shoto lightsaber and a vibrodagger, both small weapons optimized for the encounter).
Against Kyle, the book literally states that another jedi knight's block spared him an amputation when Caedus counterattacked, which makes an assertion that Kyle is a better swordsman cringe worthy. The speeder was also only in response to the coordination between Kyle and the jedi knights.
Against Luke, Luke ultimately won, but sustained much damage as Caedus got many good hits, his biggest failings being blindsided, or being surprised via overconfidence. They had directly exchanged each other, and he even broke through Luke's attempts to keep him away from Ben Skywalker.
Against Jaina, in the first fight, he started out with a bad arm, and noted that it'd detract from his ability to fight. This, on top of Jaina being amped by Luke. On the second fight, he started out with a suprise lightsaber to the gut.
On force powers, Caedus could use a single bolt to send an amped Jaina flying against a wall so hard, that her ribs broke. He telikinetically, used objects to pin or grab Luke on 2 occasions, neither being resolved via overpowering said grip with the force. He was the far superior of Jaina, and was said to have deflected turbolaser shots in the past by Jaina. He's able to simultaneously use invisibility and force camouflage if he so chooses.
On top of all this, the book says from Luke's perspective that Caedus was Luke's match in Inferno. Vader, whether in lightsabers or the force, would stand no chance.
Yeah. By the last book of the LotF series, Invincible, Caedus is on another level. He is described as one of the most powerful/diverse force users and swordsman of all time, on par with Luke Skywalker. Jaina's eventual victory over him was very situational. Jaina only survived the first encounter because 1) She was able to put a sniper round into his shoulder when he was busy fighting the Mandalorian Commandos 2) She was being bolstered by Luke's battle meditation and 3) Luke was projecting force phantoms to confuse and distract Caedus. That being said, Caedus still almost won, even after she ripped off his arm, and Jaina barely limped away from the fight.
Vader, due to his injuries and cybernetics, was both an inferior force user and swordsman. I think it would be no contest lol. Caedus is literally described as being on an almost darth sidious level. This is mainly due to how wildly imaginative the writers were with the force powers they invented and gave him. Personally, I think they went a bit overboard. Caedus was a master of all the familiar abilities such as telekinesis/force lightning/battle meditation/shatter point/etc. But then they made up other stuff such as flow walking and the whole "beyond shadows" thing. He could also glimpse possibilities for the future at will which reminded me of Darth Cognus from the last Darth Bane novel. They made him a master of like every force ability ever discussed in Star Wars and then also gave him a few new ones for good measure. Again, I feel they went a little overboard. But back to the original point, Vader would get absolutely stomped lol. Caedus is described on the same tier as force users like Luke Skywalker, Darth Sidious, or Yoda.
Boy, do I love reading essays in RUclips comment sections!
C Man Caedus vs Dooku
Malgus vs Luke Skywalker
Galen Marek vs Luke Skywalker
Caedus vs Anakin
Brilliant just brilliant Evannova95. I must say this fights final verdict blew me out of the water. Hearing Luke statement about Caedus's abilities's made me seriously overestimate him, I was so sure that this fight wasn't a fair one and that Yoda would have been a better choice. Once again because of your superior research I stand corrected. It was an absolute joy to see Caedus as I rarely see him in verses videos. I honestly can't thank you enough for having him on Season 4. You are unparalleled in these videos Evannova95 and thank you for doing what you do because I know it takes a lot of time and research. You would even surpass yoda in terms of knowledge. :) Here are some future verses suggestions:
Mace Windu vs Count Dooku
Darth Sideous vs Darth Krayt
Lucien Draay vs Kit Fisto (The battle of the Shi Cho masters)
Exar Kun vs Mace Windu
Count Dooku vs Obi Wan Kenobi (Makashi vs Soresu)
Count Dooku vs Darth Maul
Darth Maul Vs Mara Jade
Jaina Solo vs Mara Jade
Thanks again for Season 4 Evannova95. :)
Michael Karimian Thank You
Michael Karimian Mace vs the Count. To close to call in my mind. Maybe leaning towards Dooku.
William Henning I believe Dooku would win as well, though not by a long shot. :) Though, truly thats a match that could go either way.
Dooku, Sideous, Fisto. Mace, Dooku, Maul, Maul, Mara Jade
Could you do Darth bane vs Darth Revan (also first view)
Darth Tenebrous Revan has the problem of being a protagonist from a video game. Much of his other appearances don't give much credibility to him. Making a battle with him would be too much trouble. As seen in the video where he fought skywalker.
Revan
A lot of well stated points, much respect on the research and video visuals.
The part where I broke off was at your end assessment where you said he was a one trick pony and that he didn't have enough shock value. I would argue that the weapon diversity added to the shock value and made him the opposite of a one trick pony. That being said I see your logic in regards to his opponent (ie. having essentially a mech suit).
Also I know you are dealing with darksiders so your narration voice should reflect that however sometimes its just a bit too much. (Loads better than your story of Grevious video). A lighter inflection or personality would help hold my attention considering these versus series are getting longer and longer. Some constructive criticism.
Just my two cents. Overall a great video and keep up the good work.
Definitely one of, if not the best, analyses you've done to date friend. I loved it.
(Though the "Battlemaster's Niman" was mine! ;) )
I recognize "Once Upon a December" in Caedus' intro. That was used in some Darth Wyyrlok III videos, last I recall.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! There was never a doubt in mind as to who would win this fight! When the Imperial March played, I gave an evil, maniacal laugh like this one!
Meanwhile, looking forward to Season 5. By the looks of it, we'll be getting more from Obi-Wan than just a "Hello there." LOL
Lord Vader Always No. 1 in my book.
+DarthWill3 To me, Vader is one of my favourites, although I like Darth Krayt, Darth Malgus, Revan and some Jedi and pretty powerful Sith
I really love this distinction between "Diplomat's Niman" and "Battlemaster's Niman". Very clever, very succinct, and so very, very true.
It seems Lord Vader was simply too much for his grandson to handle. I expected as much. Yoda and Kun would've been overwhelmed by him eventually in my opinion but it seems Vader just had the right set of tools for the job. A hard won victory but a strong victory none the less.
Family fight the backbone of the Skywalker's
Treize Khushrenada Nah, Yoda would crush him.
josiah jenks You overestimate Yoda too much in my opinion. It's possible Yoda could out fence him but I don't think Yoda in his old age has what it takes to fight Jacen Solo.
Well actually of the three vader is possibly the best so I don't believe exar kun could have even come close to overwhelming him yoda may have but I doubt it because as a deulist vader is better than Both and his force abilities are more powerful that both
Well actually of the three vader is possibly the best so I don't believe exar kun could have even come close to overwhelming him yoda may have but I doubt it because as a deulist vader is better than Both and his force abilities are more powerful that both in magnitude than both
Caedus would crush Vader. There's no debate here ^^
Vos661 it isn't a crush, but he would win
@JulzBrad 1996 Yeah.... No. Vader's great but he's not defeating Caedus.
I have learnt more about StarWars from you, than any game, movie, or (Comic) book. Thank you for all of the aw-inspiring facts.
Good verdict :) Felt a little like you were playing to the Caedus fans in places but by the end it really made the video. Bouncing back and forward, focusing on the points that those biased to each party would focus on and addressing them. Well done :)
Obi-wan vs Darth zhanna. Two soresu practitioners
Lawrence Jones Great matchup!
Lawrence Jones it wouldn't last long because obi-wan is weak against telekinesis attacks and zannah can use force blast since she was a kid, and obi-wan not being an aggressive fighter she would have plenty of time to overwhelm him with her fore ability
Lawrence Jones Already been done.
Lawrence Jones Its been done. ruclips.net/video/bPWp9RAhK4I/видео.html
Obi wan is THE MASTER OF SORESU!
All I can way is wow to how vastly you underplayed Caedus'. You seemed to brush aside vaders weaknesses but capitalized on Caedus'. And since when has Katarn ever been on par with Caedus? That duel was not inconclusive either. Kyle got beat and he had numbers on his side. Caedus was even still weak from a past fight. Mara even had the advantage of surprise and Caedus still won.
Diplomat niman user? That is a horrible underestimation. If not in the same leagues of krayt and kun, Caedus should be right beneath them. He stepped toe to toe with luke, beat mara jade, and kyle katarn. Two of these fights with the cards stacked against him and he lost the fight to luke due to ben skywalkers interference, but he did have thr initial advantage. And the fight with Jaina she was being aided by Luke and instead of fighting he took the chance to warn tenel ka.
You acted like these victories were in his favor but it was the complete opposite. He had everything going against him. This is like Hoth vs Bane all over again. I'm not saying Caedus should have won but at least 5-6/10 he would. Give him his credit.
Why are you me?
Nice to finally see Vader get his due! So much has been made of Vader's force limitations in recent years that people forget what a menacing villain he truly was! Although he may never have reached his original force potential, this still left him more skilled and more powerful in the force than all but a few other force users. If any run of the mill Darksider with force lightning could stomp Vader, than any number of Imperial, Darkside minions could have replaced him as The Emperor's apprentice. But they didn't, because they couldn't. Vader would have crushed any one of them like an insect with his superior lightsaber skills, superior defensive abilities, superior strength, superior tactics and superior connection to the force. DARTH VADER IS THE TRUE DARKLORD OF THE SITH.
Evan, enjoyed your video as always.Excellent preparation & delivery.I don't always agree with your conclusions, but they're always done very well.I do, however , agree with this one, although I do see that it could go the other way.Thank-you very much fore you're videos, Dante.
That was bloody sweet nice work and thank you for doing these. I can't speak for everyone but i really do appreciate all the stuff you guys do for these VERSUS SERIES VIDEOS and here is my suggestion :D respect dude. Leia Solo vs Darth Maul :D
Finally, a duel worthy of my time
One year later.... Caedus murks Vader, 11/10. Caedus is simply better in everything, really. Especially in duelling.
clementex2 I feel that statement is completely false since Caedus has not won one single lightsaber duel without retreating tactics and Vader has experience with duelist similar to the ones Caedus faced and won through skill
@@thepancakespy2355 truth be told I don't quite know how you've looked at Caedus's record and come to that conclusion. Caedus is one of those bizarrely underrated combatants and people who criticise his performance often neglect to mention the numerous disadvantagous circumstances he laboured under.
Caedus may be strong but Vader is stronger in the force and is the best sith duelist or even the best duelist in the galaxy
I don’t think he curbstomps Vader though.
clementex2 Don't forget that Vader has killed the most Jedi in history, I think Caedus is the better force user as he was able to travel in time, Vader gets the physicality edge because he could litterly just yeet opponents with his bare hands.
I would say Vader wins 7/10, while Caedus definetly has the greater force ability, Vader is just to great of a duelist than Caedus.
I gotta be honest, it´s ridiculous how much you downplayed Caedus.
He kept up with a Luke in a straight lightsaber duel that was multiple times as strong as the Luke Skywalker who DEFEATED Vader.
They were so fast that trained jedi couldnt see Caedus and Luke during their duel.
Also, you missed a lot of force feats from Caedus such as:
-Absorbing a turbo-laser
-Influencing the whole galactic council
-Influencing a MASSIVE crowd to split up so he can walk through them
-Tricking whole FLEETS with strong illusions
-Turning his pain into a source of strength
Darth vader is just jesus
@@usone6982no
My favorite video you've made :D seriously! This is so good
From what i read, when Jason disappeared for 5 years he learned things that no other jedi or sith learned leading me to believe Vader would be toast; and Jaina would not even be close, but that is the problem when writers don't follow common sense. By the way I thought turning Jason dark was a dumb idea, he should have been the greatest jedi ever. IMO.
+idarthcadeus Originally, Anakin Solo was to be the one to end the Vong War and become the Hero of the NJO Era. However, an editorial mandate saw Anakin die and his role switched with Jacen.
+EvanNova95 Yeah, Lucas thought people would be confused by the two Anakin's. Which was more than a little condescending to his audience if you ask me.
@idarthcadeus, Anakin Skywalker should've been the greatest jedi ever too, remember?
yes he was one of the only force users to ever be able to travel back in Time with the force - except Naga Sadow
i always got the impression that Jaina was a bit ahead of Jacen, at least speaking about their skill with the force.
Confirmed Sociopath
They were equal in strength with different aspects. Jaina was more techno-savy, like Anakin. While Jacen was more in tune with nature, like Ezra Bridger.
Caedus should get the physical edge. The very same thing that grants Vader his protection and chemicals boosting him, his suit, is also the cause of his weakness: less agility, mobility, flexibility, not to mention his life support systems, which if fried via force lightning, effectively means a gradual death sentence for him. Just because Vader's style is partially designed to defend his weak spots, that doesn't eliminate them as potential weaknesses.
Caedus on the other hand only has advantages. He's still incredibly fast, agile, and flexible, yet his ability to virtually ignore pain has no such disadvantages like Vader's suit.
8:10-8:20, what? Whom has Vader fought whom has superior speed than Caedus? Caedus surprised Grandmaster Luke with his speed in their duel... that's Luke in his prime.
And you showed a picture or two of Vader's fight with Anya Kuro here as an example of the quick opponents Vader's faced. However, he only defeated her by trapping her under a tree. He didn't outright defeat her via lightsaber combat. While I still agree that Vader's handled opponents whom were quicker and more agile than he was, he definitely struggled against them. And that should factor into things, considering how crazy fast Caedus could be when he wanted to be.
24:50-25:01, true, he wasn't able to defeat them through pure lightsaber combat, but then again, neither Mara Jade nor Jaina Solo were able to defeat *him* through pure lightsaber combat either.
25:57-26:09, more like, if he's at a severe set-back against his opponent (which is the only reason he lost to Jaina, and partially the reason Mara Jade was almost able to kill him)...
While I can somewhat agree to Vader getting the edge as a duelist, their disparity is nowhere near as great as you made it seem. I think you largely underrate Caedus as a duelist. He wasn't just considered a master swordsman at some random point in his life by most of the leaders of the Jedi Order of that time, he was considered to be so specifically shortly after constructing his first lightsaber. In other words, in the mere beginning stages of being a Padawan, he was considered by the best Jedi of that time to be a master swordsman... and he only got better. Furthermore, let's compare. While Vader does have more combat experience, Jacen learned lightsaber combat (as well as the ways of the Force) at a very young and formative age, notably younger than when Anakin began learning the ways of the Jedi.
And you're assessment of his dueling abilities is almost entirely assumption. Caedus pretty much only using Niman, and specializing in it to a fault is not canon, but an educated guess on your part, and part of what you used to back that up was how he lost to some of the best duelists and fighters of his time (2 of which he only lost to / was losing to because of the circumstances and other factors)? That doesn't make too much sense.
He was losing to Mara Jade because she surprise attacked him, injuring his leg, then buried him under a pile of bricks and mortar with a trap, and fought him in small cave/tunnel area where her weapons, a shoto and a vibroblade, were a huge advantage to her compared to Caedus' normal-sized lightsaber for him.
He only lost to his sister Jaina because he was terribly injured, and Luke was aiding Jaina by using some kind of battle meditation to bolster her abilities, and he was projecting himself onto Jaina to make it seem to Caedus as if he were somehow fighting Luke instead of Jaina. Because he feared Luke above all else, besides his vision of the dark future he was trying to prevent, this obviously affected the fight too.
The only other two of note are Luke and Kyle, and his fight with Luke isn't needed to be gone over very much; all that's needed to be said is what I've already said about it.
With his fight with Katarn, yes, Katarn is probably the superior all-around duelist, but to be fair, he's the frickin' Jedi battlemaster of the New Jedi Order, and arguably among the top 5 duelists of that particular time. The fact that Caedus faced both Luke and Kyle and held his own is impressive, and speaks to his abilities.
28:14-28:19, yes, and Caedus moved almost too fast for Luke to notice. That's a fair bit faster than the human eye can see, to say the least.
30:50-30:56, wrong. Force deflection and Tutaminis are not the same thing. The closest thing to deflection one can do with Tutaminis is absorbing the energy, then redirecting it (or even putting some of one's own power and energy into it before redirecting it). With deflection, there's no absorbing, and it's far tougher to redirect it at a specific target. Usually it just 'deflects' something or things away from oneself.
Anyway, point is it's debatable whether Vader can actually use Tutaminis, what with his artificial limbs. And before you think of The Empire Strikes Back where Han shoots at Vader... if you watch closely, Vader does not absorb or dissipate those blaster bolts. They explode... as if Vader put up a small barrier/shield with the Force. This is an act of force deflection, not Tutaminis.
Regarding Vader's "defenses" against force lightning...
his insulation within his suit wouldn't do shit. The conclusion in the fight between Starkiller and Vader in The Force Unleashed II was bullshit. There's no way Vader would've been able to withstand that level of force lightning. The electronet (not related to The Force Unleashed), or whatever it was called was understandably and reasonably not strong enough to really do anything to Vader, but the likes of Starkiller's boosted force lightning? No, that's bogus. They were fun games, but you can't take The Force Unleashed games seriously as it pertains to the abilities of Star Wars characters. The game's very creators even said something to the effect of: they wanted to make a Star Wars game where the Force powers were on steroids. In other words, things were exaggerated.
Vader's ability to use his lightsaber against force lightning is perhaps his most viable defense, however it's not an absolute perfect defense against force lightning. If any of Caedus' force lightning were to strike Vader, it'd basically be over... not immediately of course, but Vader would be hindered, and gradually get worse and worse until he was helpless against Caedus. And about Sidious being such a great force lightning user... he was, and Caedus, while probably not quite as proficient, was easily proficient enough to where his force lightning would overload Vader's life-support systems.
Here's my counter-verdict: Vader lost against Luke in Return of the Jedi, while Caedus managed to not be defeated by Luke in his prime. There are factors to take into consideration however, like: Vader (somewhat Anakin at this point) was probably holding back in his final fight against Luke in the second deathstar; Luke defeated Vader through use of force rage; in the fight between Luke and Caedus, Luke was clearly superior (however Caedus did manage to almost cut Luke's arm off during their fight through a remarkable display of speed that surprised even Luke). As I said, these factors need to be considered, however there's a huge difference between Ep. 6 Luke and GM Luke. To me at least, the mere fact that Caedus wasn't defeated outright by GM Luke indicates he's superior to Vader. I agree that Vader is the better technical duelist between Caedus and him, however I still think Caedus would win. His masterful proficiency with force augmentation, especially his use of it to ignore pain and move at speeds which surprised even Grandmaster Luke, plus his ability with shatterpoints I think places him above Vader. Vader's never faced an opponent like Caedus, yet Caedus has faced numerous opponents around *and above* Vader's level... some of whom he faced with a severe set-back.
Caedus is reasonably the most likely victor.
JWIZZY4real Thank you. Hopefully, EvanNova steps up his game. His last 2 or 3 videos have had ridiculous verdicts.
TinyTorah agreed
***** No way. We've had to have agreed on something else sometime, right? ;)
But yeah, Evan needs to do a better job with his videos. They are of course good, in production-value I guess for Star Wars versus videos, but he sure sucks when it comes to his "educated" opinion on whom would win.
***** Yep, I think that might be it! Hahaha
Amen!!!! Cadeus was sold way too short in this video!!!
Aren't you forgetting that Darth Plagueis mentioned to his apprentice that physical damage, & limitations while having the potential to handicap a force wielder didn't inherently damage the force wielder's connection to the force. Darth Plagueis mentioned something about it ultimately resting on the force wielder's state of mind, & Vader wasn't just physically broken, he was also mentally broken by all he had lost (also his inability to get over the loss of Padme).
I love Vader. I like him much more than Caedus; but I call bullshit on the outcome. Caedus is leaps and bounds stronger in the force and as a lightsaber duelist. You give Vader waaaaay too much credit
no vader really was well-versed in all the styles he learned
I agree
With ArcTrooperMaize
Caedus is a coward and has only one because of retreat tactics where Vader only wins cause of pure skill
VEGITAS4 LMAOOOOO, GREAT JOB..... You just proved you know absolutely NOTHING about Star Wars at all.
“Leaps and bounds stronger” ...... What an idiot. You DO Vader was THEE best lightsaber duelist IN all of Star Wars right?? NOBODY was “leaps and bounds” ahead of him as a lightsaber combatant you daft fool, sooo what in the actual fuck are you even talking about.....
PLEASE, just stop already. You’ve literally just embarrassed yourself with that blatantly incompetent statement. Just stop. You know absolutely nothing and you’ve proven it beyond any doubt. Again, GREAT job 🐸🐸🐸
This was an amazing finale and everything I expected and more. You truly are the master of the vs and I have a request Cao-Sen-Duratch vs Kyel Catarn
EvanNova95 Hey man, I've been watching your videos quite a lot lately and I must say I really like your in depth analysis of the star wars galaxy along with its own characters! I hope you continue your awesome Vs' series as I do enjoy your own comments and arguments on the topics! Keep up the good work, man! :)
MisterAwestasia Stick to the very end of the Video and you'll see I have a another Season in the Works. :)
Oh sweetness, man! By the way, if you don't mind me suggesting a particular face off, how about Darth Vader vs Kyle Katarn? I hope to see the upcoming season and I wish you the utmost luck!
I think maybe it is overlooked that Caedus often adapted his own tactics to combat his opponents and also as far as his final fight with his sister, for her to defeat him it was only possible after a grievous wound and having his attention split between combating Lukes attempts at altering his perceptions through the force and Caedus trying to warn his wife of the danger she and their daughter were in all on top of the physical and force combat going on between him and Jaina. I would think this would count as a display of how he could adapt to and counter the tactics of someone like Vader who depends on his aggression and his ability to over power his opponents. This is, of course, assuming that they are both unhindered and fresh at the beginning of their match.
I honestly feel that Jacens experience against the Vong gives him some extra combat prospective that Vader might not have
Anakin fought the vongs before And after his turning to the darkside
Vader let Luke win cause that was his son. and the emperor wanted him . if wanted to kill Luke he could have easily done it . so let's give Vader some credit after Vader lost to obe wan Vader perfected his craft over the years he has to many styles he is to versatile he knows to many styles and he is a defensive master
This is so awesome! You do a great job on these vs. series.
Very great versus video as always.
Here's an idea: Pong Krell vs Savage Oppress, two double-bladed lightsaber users from TCW.
Savage.
ANONYMOUS nope savage holds his own and overpowered anakin and obi wan in one fight he also beat ventress and held his own against Dooku and sidious pong krell has not shown much skill apart from beating clones which savage did better against without a saber krell was only affective against clones because of his 4 blades savage was stronger in the force and the better fighter he would beat krell
Savage.
Again, another video when I strongly disagree with your verdict. Darth Caedus should win this, but not easily.
Physical ability: Vader > Caedus
- Good observation. Both might have similar pain tolerance, but Vader's suit gives him the edge in regards to sheer strength.
- But you have to acknowledge that Caedus can fight even with a hole in his chest, while Vader cannot. So this does not necessarily mean that Vader can fight on with blows that would have finished Caedus.
Martial Artist/Lightsaber Duelists: Equal, but Caedus has the advantage in speed
- Vader's duelling analysis is crisp and accurate.
- Caedus' duel with Katarn wasn't inconclusive. Caedus destroyed Katarn alongside his team.
- When Jacen duelled Mara, Mara had the advantage of surprising Jacen. Mara had the environment advantage and it was Jacen's ability to adapt that enabled him to survive Mara's onslaught. It is due to the inconsistencies, but as Caedus he outclasses Mara as a duelist.
- What the hell? Katarn outclass Caedus as swordsman? There was no instance when Katarn had the upper hand against Caedus in that duel, and Katarn had the advantage of numbers. Caedus himself wasn't even fighting at full strength, having been injured from his previous duel with Luke. If Caedus is at full strength, he will walk over Katarn.
- Since when was Jaina the superior duelist? Caedus grossly outclasses her. You forgot to mention that Caedus wasn't even interested in fighting Jaina, and his objective was protecting his daughter. Jaina also surprised him with, if im not mistaken, a stab to the chest. So Caedus wasn't even fighting at his full strength. In addition, Jaina was aided by Luke in the force.
- Caedus wasn't even trying to kill Jaina. He just wants to complete his objective. And even then, Caedus had the option to take Jaina down with her, but didn't want to. So If Caedus really tried, he would walk all over her.
- Caedus dosen't play cheap as you said. All your examples show that Caedus is extremely skilled in using his surroundings to his advantage, and nothing more than that.
- You placed hardly mention on his duel with Luke, when Caedus impressively fought against a bloodlusted Luke Skywalker into a stalemate, and only lost when Ben interfered with a stab from the vibroblade. This feat alone speaks into grandmaster levels with his ability with the blade.
- But I am convinced that at the VERY most, Vader and Caedus are approximate equals with the blade, but Caedus is superior in terms of speed.
Force abilities: Caedus >> Vader
- Very thorough analysis, but I believe that a bigger edge should be given to Caedus.
- If Caedus can project illusions to defeat Mara, he sure as hell can do the same to Vader, probably to great effect.
- Shatterpoints is used to find fatal weaknesses in his opponent's techniques, so it will play a role here in this contest.
- So that being said, Jacen's esoteric force powers will still be too much for Vader to handle.
Verdict: Darth Caedus beats Vader 6-7/10 times, due to his superior variety in force powers and raw speed in lightsaber combat.
A more balanced matchup, one that I said probably over a thousand times, is Yoda vs Caedus. This matchup in my opinion is more even and can go either way.
clementex2 I kind of agree with you. I think Evan was too quick to dismiss Caedus in pretty much every area.
Caedus felt like a massive threat at all times in the Legacy of the Force series. I remember thinking that only Luke really had a chance to take him down, Jaina only doing so after receiving training from Boba Fett in unconventional fighting skills and trickery.
Darth Caedus is one of my favourite parts of the old Expanded Universe, and in my mind he should be up there with Vader and Sidious as one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time.
I'm not sure if Caedus should have one, but it definately should have been more of a contest. I really don't think Caedus is as weak as EvanNova made him out to be.
Thanks for the Video +EvanNova95, but I really think you have grossly mis-represented Caedus.
Plasticcaz It feels like he brushes off every weakness of Vader, and minimizes every strength of Caedus, while puttting a lot of focus on his weakness.
clementex2 Agreed. With how he treated force abilities, Vader might as well be> than Palpatine, which is false. Was Caedus's duel on the Anakin Solo Lightsaber exclusive? (I forgot)
Desolator Storm Which one? His duel with Jaina? Or the one with Luke? Evan placed way too much emphasis on his duel with Jaina to put forth incorrect interpretations about Caedus, while placing absolutely zero on his duel with Luke.
clementex2
The fight against Luke and Ben.
i absolutely loved your descriptions of vader throughout this whole video
Wow! Great analysis! Although I do have a few minor queries, all in all I agree! You went very in depth and I applaud your knowledge! My problems are only very minor and won't change things too dramatically, if at all, so I will not bother to voice them here, but I have some none the less. Just know that your earned yourself a subscriber today!
i'm not even that huge of a star wars nerd (not an offencive term in my books! hope it's mutual), i do very much love these versus series of yours. nicely researched, well argumented and overal very relaxing and informative to listen to, it's a joy to see another one of these pop up in my inbox. here's to season 5, and i hope Meetra Surik get's her episode one day, cause by god i need that!
also, i just have to say, your voice is a charm to listen to, relaxing, calming, amazing. i could listen to it all day long. keep up the amazing work dude, i'll be here listening!
True Drake Thank You I appreciate the support.
Also, Meetra Surik isn't really a character one could use in a Versus Match because she doesn't have very manny measurable feats. The bulk of her info comes from KOTOR 2 where she is controlled by the player and her appearance in the REVAN Novel isn't substantial enough to draw any sort of concrete information about how she fights.
Sorry If that answer was a bit long winded, I just get that question a lot.
EvanNova95 oh, don't worry about the longer answer. makes it clear in one go why Meetra is gonna be tough, so thanks for that.
Starkiller vs Meetra Surik also Savage Oppress vs Darth Zannah?
Zannah would easily butcher Savage
***** The Exile has the same problem Revan does. Both are mostly based on how a person played them in their respective games...and only have one real book about them, in which the author knew nothing about KoTOR 2. Also, Savage Oppress is a shit character and shouldn't have gotten any kills. Zannah mind rapes the shit out him and he dies like the piece of shit he and TCW is.
***** no man you don't put a pawn to fight against the Darth Zannah, you just don't
Zannah trumps Savage
***** yaay, i;m not the only one thinking about Meetra :D (KOTOR II FTW)
Verdict: Lord Vader bitch slaps his punk of a grandson :)
MisterTutor2010 i'd love to see that in episode 7 although it is impossible
MisterTutor2010 Even better: Backhands him.
Vader pimp slapped Cade Skywalker, don't forget that too
Please don't swear, of course Darth Vader beat Darth Caedus because more experienced than Darth Caedus but Darth Caedus is very powerful.
Someone has clearly only seen the movies and hasnt read any of the EU books
This was well worth the wait great video.
Well done. I normally give you a hard time on your videos but you called this contest as you saw it. I am a fan of the Legacy of the Jedi as well. Fantastic work man, keep it up!
I think Vader was extremely conflicted as somewhat stated by George Lucas, and that's why Luke won
I think if he knew that caedus is his Grand son maybe he would do the same as he did with luke
False. The closest statements by George Lucas about that fight are in the ROTJ novel that he co wrote and he said that Vader was enraged
good god, fifty minutes!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Deal with it bro dis is Star Wars!!!!!!
Jonah Goodrow Quick! Someone get the popcorn!
99thJediWarrior THERES NONE LEFT *NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*
I like your video a lot, though i feel like you underestimated Caedus. For me it kinda seemed as if you made a decision ahead of time, and then "played" the facts to Vaders side. Just my opinion though, still great video!:))
I agree
Even with Caedus's power, I'd say Vader would still win, even though Caedus was underestimated in this
@@legoyoda2821 I disagree personally. I love Vader but I don't see how he has any realistic hope of defeating Caedus.
@@tiredjediknight3110 Raw power. Yes, Caedus had more force ABILITIES, but Vader was more powerfull than him in pure sense of that word. Also, he was much more connected to the dark side, caedus was more like dooku in this sense, except the moments where he uses his pain to hain more power. And this is kinda the thing, Vader vs Caedus is basically Vader vs Dooku and Sion combined, if he manages the latter, Caedus looses.
@@emzonik8851 Caedus has every conceivable advantage over Vader with the exception of raw power in the force and even then not to such a degree it would be likely to have any significant impact upon a contest between the two. It’s really as simple as that. Could Vader win? Sure it’s possible. Is he likely to be the winner 9 times out of 10? Not at all.
Was not expecting this result at all. Geat video!
Thanks for a great season of vids! Really enjoyed this conclusion. Impressive, most impressive. :)
This video is poor. Your research is shoddy and based on a love of one character over another. To put it simply and logically: Vader vs Caedus is physical vs force, Caedus undeniably has more force potential than Vader and the Dark side can allow you to tap into it more readily though emotions. Why is it undeniable? Han Solo is force sensitive in the Expanded Universe and so is Leia and force potential is based on familial blood rather than parental phenotype so their children could've been nulls in the force or above Anakin Skywalker's level (it is unknown if Padme was force sensitive but for your sake I will go with no thus the extra juice the Solo blood provided is the only difference between the two which is still a formidable difference once you take into account Vader's less than stellar limb status). The fight would be a brutal one as it would literally be up to the first one to make a mistake ( Vader exposing a shatter point in his armor or, worse, cybernetics or Caedus straying to close and getting whacked like a overripe tomato ) and not the roflstomp you incorrectly claim as Vader could just as easily enrage Caedus sufficiently to tap into a higher level of force ability and shock the every loving shit out of Vader with force lightning targeting shatter points as Vader wouldn't be able to catch an equal caliber force sensitive using augmented speed let alone one slightly above him.
Now I will also shoot apart one of you claims: Darth Caedus if he sees sufficient need for it could become one with the force again because of the reason why he became a sith in the first place and namely to protect the galaxy *regardless of any price paid*.
And finally: If you're gonna quote a damn saying quote it fully "Jack of all trades, master of none, *but ofttimes better than master of one* ." . You've tried to make a force user that is specialized in lightsaber abilities and who's force abilities are nulled if they face a equally trained, equally potent force user seem like a default winner but the truth of the matter is the fight would be down to the first guy to make a mistake... and they're both fallen jedi (so not too stable on the rage front)... so it would be utterly random.
This comparison is absurd. Jacen Solo is the most powerful Jedi in the EU up until his death. He's done feats that neither Luke Skywalker or Palpatine have done. The only real weakness Jacen had is the that the writers decided to throw every bit of character progression he had throughout his arc and randomly decide to make him evil for the most contrived of reasons. It's also laughable that they decided Jaina would be the one to beat him, when she has never been the swordsman or force user her brother has, opting instead to develop her skills as a master pilot and mechanical engineer.
+derek96720 I do agree but I will point out that Luke figures out a lot of the rare powers that Jacen used or learns them from their original sources. Also I think you underestimating Jaina's skill. Unlike Jacen who got the "your pretty good" rating Jaina was literally given the title Sword of the Jedi by Luke.
We got so many Jacen fanboys who have no objectivity anyway, and can't apply any creative thinking or unbiased views, that it drowns out the people here who are making legitimate arguments in his favor and aren't biased. That out of the way. I believe if you look at this situation objectively and unbiased, Jacen objectively stands no chance against Vader, who is far more powerful, more accomplished in terms of superior feats, and the greatest Lightsaber duelist ever. He has been stated as being either the most powerful force user, or second most depending on if you believe Palpatine is the first of second. Jacen can't even come close. But that's not an insult to Jacen, as very few characters could stand a chance against Vader. Good analysis and a great video!
Well he wasn't the 2'nd most powerfull force user, don't forget Valkorion/Viteate, who can even be viewed as more powerfull than Sidious. Also I belive that there is also a few antient sith lords a bit more powerfull than him Vader. And, depending if you consider tfu canon, Starkiller, who wasn't way more powerfull, but did beat Vader. Anyway, Caedus looses to him, true.
This is disgustingly untrue. Jacen is stated directly above the sub TPM crew fodder
Yah I hate ti break to people vader will only fall to darth sidious level of lighting
Once again, you did an AWESOME job! Can't wait for Season 5! :D
Hey EvanNova95 could you possibly do Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Nihilus or Kyle Katarn vs Darth Bane? :D
Also I love all your VS vids, please don't ever stop. :)
Look at Grievous, he is super nimble and strong. If Vaders augmentations were the result of rushing, why not later on replace his parts with upgraded tech? Tech should be even further along than it was in grievous's time, that doesn't make sense....
+Xyos212 As far as I know Darth Sidious deliberately used Older tech while making him so He doesn't grow to strong and try to overthrow Sidious. Sidious was too afraid of Vader, so Vader never got a real upgrade besides some minor changes and calibrations.
+Xyos212 and vader was an extremely skilled machanic!!!
Well sidious may have purposely made vader's suit as encumbering as possible to weaken vader
+Xyos212 Vaders suit was added onto his organic body in order to preserve his ability to use the force, Grievous had a suit designed to make a nonforce user deadly with a lightsaber. So they could have made Vader stronger, faster and more agile, however it would already weaken his limited connection to the force.
chris55268 Thats a big assumption. Legs for instance: Those quick robot legs could of been added to Vader.
I already know the answer: Couldn't present that back then in the 70's and 80's, and we just wrap the lore around the limitations of the time. Thats fine, but lets not pretend there is a logical reason why he is so slow...
How about Kyle Katarn vs Darth Malgus
ruclips.net/video/G2ybvPjzEAU/видео.html
Nova u just love Vader
For the next season, i would recommend to see Jaina solo, plo koon, shaak ti, anakin as a jedi knight, Mara Jade or yoda vs galen marek. Maybe one of them interests you, other than that, I love your channel! It's awesome! Keep up the great work!
A fitting end to a brilliant season! Darth Caedus sounds kind of like a poor mans Exar Kun to me.
I would like to suggest The Inquisitor from rebels vs Ahsoka Tano, though if there is not enough information on The Inquisitor, then I suggest Dark Jedi Bariss Offe vs Darth Talon.
Jeremy Baker what he is nothing like exar kun
You totally down played Darth Caedus and his abilities. By the time Luke was grandmaster he was far beyond Vader. Caedus was on Luke's level when they fought and I think he'd take Vader.
If you say Caedus was on Lukes level, that equals him being the most powerfull sith in existance, more powerfull than Palpatine. And that is a rediculous statement. And, remember, even though, of course, Palpatine would crush Vader any time, given that he was not only more powerfull, but also knew much more force abilities, George Lucas said, Vader in pure power is 80% as powerfull as Palpatine. That means he was extremely powerfull. If Caedus wins the fight with Vader, that must be due to specific force powers, Vader was unprepared for. Becouse in raw power, Caedus looses.
Even a year later I still disagree with your points. Caedus was a good enough duelist to survive duels with Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade Skywalker, Jaina Solo and Kyle Katarn. Luke and Kyle are both superior to Vader in terms of swordsmenship by my assessment, and Mara and Jaina were both notable Swordswomen, in Mara`s case with insane amounts of combative experience. I think you several underestimate Jacen in terms of his lightsaber skills. He might not be one of the greats, but he was certainly good enough to keep up with them long enough to bring his force powers to bare, something that is clearly shown in his fight with Kyle. While he was outmatched in terms of lightsaber duelling, he managed to keep up long enough to find a way around the BATTLEMASTER! Looking at some of his other feats as a swordsman he was able to take on Juuzhan Vong, not a mean feat in itself, pointing to a high amount of skill considering how easily other Jedi fell to those. Jacen also had several force abilities that would certainly take Vader out of the fight, among other things force illusions, that conjured up the fears of an individual (similiar to Darth Zannah). This would have a destructive effect on Vader`s already weak mental state. Also, Jacen studied Vader like a maniac (I call that Kylo Renning now), even going so far as to flow walk to see him live in action, and probably knew all about his fighting style and abilities, meaning he would know how to cope with them (guessing by Jacen`s approach to everything he would study, learn, and overcome the problem). Jacen also had the ability to influence electrical devices (using his force ability to screw around with monitors and vital readings and stuff) and I wouldn`t put it past him to be able to influence Vader`s suit. Not to mention the fact that force lighting still, no matter how strong or weak, posed a challange to Vader, and if struck, would cause his suit to malfunction or plainly give out. Yes, he can defend against it, but looking at the way Caedus usually fights, he would sneak it in somewhere, hitting Vader, either disabling or hindering him, and the deathblow would follow shortly. Overall, I think you got the logic wrong in your verdict. Vader isn`t good enough to overcome Caedus, Caedus is good enough to overcome Vader.
Very well thought out. I'm going to throw some flame proof clothes your way, because your going to need it. Lots of huge Caedus fan boys out there. I feared you were one of them, but you thought everything out. Great video.
TheAncientDemon He didn't think everything out enough, Caedus would've beaten his grandfather hands down.
***** I disagree with you sir, for all the reasons stated in the video.
TheAncientDemon this video seemed more like Vader winking and less like a vs
josh gonzalez definitely, Evan heavily downplayed Caedus as a duelist and Force user, while emphasizing the best of Vader. He ignored circumstances surrounding Caedus's duels with Katarn and Jaina and completely left Luke out of it. He did not take into account the level of power Luke had achieved at this point (and who was bloodlusted) when he fought Caedus, and while I agree Caedus would have lost the duel no matter what, I think anyone else aside from Sidious would have lost much much sooner.
Yup I agree with you completely
Finally!!!!! I loved it sooooooo much may the force be with you nova!!!
This is great! Keep up your amazing work. Greetings from germany.
Ya know, if force power is based off your living tissue... The best force users in the universe would be Hutts.
Lol
well it depends on your overall quantity of midichlorians
Trajan Stinga Of course, of course. And this is why if I were in the star wars universe, I'd run a blood bank, filter and concentrate the midichlorians, and transfuse them into myself.
+FDJustin that's already stated to not work in unverse
The universe also states that you can make zombie droids, so...
I don't know how I feel about this. I'm glad that Vader won, but (and this has nothing to do with the combatants) I don't like how you play down the importance of force abilities when compared to lightsaber skills and martial arts. In my opinion, force abilities are ALWAYS more important than martial arts. In conclusion, Lightsaber Skills/Martial Arts: Child's Play - Force Abilities: Perfect All Around Weapon. In my opinion.
Courier Seven Its a consequence of the combatants used in the match. You have one dedicated lightsaber duelist with a very powerful connection to the force going up against a dedicated force wielder with remedial lightsaber skills. Even for someone like me who possesses very much a Jedi Consular Mentality and a preference for the force can't ignore the facts. Ultimately the linchpin for this match WAS going to be their marital arts skills, since they are pretty evenly matched in terms of raw force power. Which is why more emphasis was going to be on that section.
Nova has a point there
Remedial lightsaber skills... I'm sorry but that's frankly absurd. Unless we're going to assume warriors like GM Luke, Kyle Katarn and Jaina are also at best "remedial".
I may be wrong, but I don't get the impression that EvanNova95 can be impartial in assessing Vaders capabilities & viability.
This is the second video that I've seen that Evan has (imo) highly overblown Vaders capabilities.
It is obviously totally fine to have a character that you genuinely like or think highly of in spite of their actual limitations but Vader is (again, imo) one of those Star wars characters who could have exceeded his actual endgame limits but as is obvious by his inherent story he got kneecapped by his pride early on in his life & it literally crippled him & his potential.
Vader existed amongst non-force users for the vast majority of the time of his "suited" life post Mustafar, he had trouble with decrepit Old Ben Kenobi, of all people! Vader as Anakin was a force (no pun intended) to be reckoned with who was extremely arrogant & he paid for it & it cost him, dearly.
Vader is awesome, in his way, yes. But Vader is also severely limited at the exact same time & those crippling limitations prevent him from competing with other high level force users, especially Sith lords.
I don't hate Vader, but let's be honest, here?
I think Vader didn't cut Obi wan down because Obi had some super-duper good defenses. Like, really, really, good. And I Think Vader was being careful, because he had a pretty bad experience with Obi when he went all out. I think Vader, even crippled, is more powerful than Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan is really a master at defending and waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Besides, it looks like in that fight that Vader was leading Obi-Wan around anyway.
Great video as always. How about a match between Exar Kun and Darth Krait? You brought them up together and while I was thinking about it that would make an EXCELLENT verses video!
0:15 - Ah see what you did there in terms of the background music when going over Darth Vader's brief synopsis...clever guy!
For those who don't get it he used Sky Fall By Adele in a video about a SKYwalker who had FELLED to the dark sided.
😂 good one
As much as I like Vader, Caedus win.
Oooooonce upooooooooon a deeeceeeeeeeeeeembeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer.
I was totally thinking that bro
+Reti4 It appears I'm not the only one who knows that song!
+Reti4 It appears I'm not the only one who knows that song!
Where can I find the remix of the version used in the video?
Galen Marek vs Mace Windu
darth raven vs darth vader
Galen obviously wins
The Supreme Leader not really
@@thesupremeleader9356 no
Mace obviously wins
Evan, great job and I loved the niman idea diplomate and battlemaster. But for me there is one more based on your assement of Caedous. The shock and awe varient where people like Caedous and more notable Exar Kun really on surprise and unotrthodox tatics to get the job done.
Also sujestions for season 5, season 4 was great i loved in except for dooku vs qui gon jinn. Which i believe shouldnt of been done. Since its not surprising or a close match up.
But moving on;
Obi-Wan vs Corran Horn.
Kyle Katarn vs Windu or Revan.
Luke vs Yoda.
Exar Kun vs Kyp durron or Jaina solo
Jaina solo vs satele shan.
Darth Caedous vs Revan
Plo Koon vs Anakin.
man 53 minutes!! you left no stone unturned in this one man!
Caedus obliterates. Vader can't compete with Luke. Caedus is Luke's match.
He is not, saying he is is a complete misunderstanding. You could very well say Caedus surpassed Sidious as way younger Luke defeated Sidious while Caedus competed with GM Luke. First of all, Luke fought a greatly weakened Sidious and more importantly, Caedus did NOT win the foght with Luke or even stalemate, he mearly survived it. It was an analogy to Yoda vs Dooku in AOTC. Which is still impressive but not enough to call him Luke's match in any way. Vader was obviously far below GM Luke, but his feats surpass Caedus, even if the latter presents a much greater variety of force abilities. Pure strenght in the force is not the same as skill. Vader had less variate skills but his pure power was undoubtly higher.
@@emzonik8851 not true at all
Annakin vs Revan. Not when they were Siths.
So before they became Sith.
+Mr. Fadoraman yep
+Drake AF Anakin, Hands down kek
+Drake AF Anakin rapes him as easily as he raped Dooku.
+Sloth Second comment where you exaggerate the victor lol. Anakin could never beat Dooku, who could fight Yoda, without assistance of Obi-Wan
Darth Vader vs Darth Zannah
No contest darth vader for sure while darth zannah's spells might stagger vader he would work past the spell and face zannah in lightsaber combat and vader would over whelm her in this contest
carson birney
Yea I imagine the same outcome. Though I think it would be close, considering that Zannah might use her Sith sorcery to play on Vader's memories as Anakin Skywalker (i.e. Shmi Skywalker dying in Anakin's arms, Padme dying as Vader was being rebuilt).
Though since they are memories of someone Vader no longer wanted to be, this would just be considered a failed attempt at Dun Moch.
That and while Zannah is a skilled Soresu duelist, she was by no means an Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Form. That and she has had trouble against power duelists like Darth Bane.
99thJediWarrior Playing with Vader's memories it will make him to go on rampage and it won't end well for Zannah...
THAT WOULD DO NOTHING BUT PISS VADER OFF
Vader should win. Zannah is too weak.
the dual light saber was kind of old fashioned and more about intimidation and confusion then practicality, darth bane stated that it was more limited as even though you had 2 lightsabers you were still only contacting one blade at a time and limiting movements. makes sense lol
i love your videos man great job!
I personally think you sold caedus a bit short though... and would it be too much to ask to include other characters such as Lumiya or even General Grievous in your videos?
Wouldn't the Clone Troopers be considered the greatest Jedi killers (and not Vader)? They're the ones who actually wiped out the rest of the Jedi during Order 66.
Considering that Vader wiped out all the masters in the temple and most of the Jedi knights in the temple. Add on to this the Jedi he hunted down in the next few years and he has wiped out more Jedi than any clone tropper
I think Vader killed mostly padawans and younglings if I remember correctly. And by the time Order 66 was executed, most of the Jedi would have been wiped out. There wouldn't have been a lot of Jedi left for Vader to kill and the remaining Jedi who did managed to survive would most likely later be killed by Clone Troopers themselves or Inquisitors.
Rayve Napsu The point is that Vader personally killed more Jedi than any other individual at the time.
Rayve Napsu true if you go by the movies, but I feel novels go into more details about him going after or fighting the Jedis that escaped the purge.
Rayve Napsu He killed a lot of Masters, Knights, Padawans, and Younglings but mainly Knights and Master!
This is bullshit how does Vader win? Jacen did things Vader has never done. Darth Caedus losing to Jaina was bs in itself. But Vader? He lost to a young Luke. Caedus wins this with ease. Jacen feats are much better.
+wally west Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke, nice try.
+wally west Darth Vader is stated in the official Book of the Sith as being one of the most powerful Sith Lords in Star Wars history, alongside Darth Malak, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun, etc. Caedus isn't mentioned.
+redhandsbluefaces are you familiar with the phrase "actions speak louder than words" feats trump some vague mention of power.
have you even seen some of Vader's comic feats?
have you even seen some of Vader's comic feats?
Cadeus beat Kyle Katern
Katern barely srurvived
Exactly and this fight is often bizarrely misinterpreted as well. Caedus was very clearly in control of that fight and if not for Kyle's jedi back up he'd have been quickly killed.
Only because Caedus used desperation tactics to beat katarn
@@thepancakespy2355 Katarn is easy mode for Caedus. Except for Luke, a very experieneced Gramdmaster Luke, Caedus didnt have any real threats. Jaina caught him at a bad time, smart for her but she was definitely not his match.
@@thepancakespy2355 Nonsense. Caedus's first strike against Katarn would have severed the Jedi masters leg had his back up not intervened. That's not desperation, that's being a superior combatant.
This is one of those points against Katarn that makes absolutely no sense if people have read the book.
Exactly
Could you please add the soundtracks to the credits or the description box? I'm loving the musics you use almost as much as your content.
Damn I think you made some good points, but kinda undercut Caedus a bit, but then again those points you made were a good contrast. If Bane the Sithari sees this... *flinches* lol.
Vader wins?Darth Caedus is said to be at Sidious level
Darth Nihilus He is not. He has maybe 83-85% of Sidious power.
Kyle messenger of pain/Darth Umbra Luke chopped of Sidious's hand. Many years of getting stronger later even Luke has a tough time fighting Jacen. If he could almost standstill a better and more expirienced version of Luke then he should be able to beat Sidious who lost to a weaker (although still extremely strong) Luke.
Luke wasnt at his prime when he fought Sidious,but Grandmaster Luke would beat Sidious with ease
Darth Nihilus Does that mean you think Caedus could beat Vader then?
No.Luke is actually in a complete different league(he actually did bad vs Jacen)
Luke knocked an AT-AT out with a single force push
Froze everything during a fight (Its like stoping the time and the only one who could actually do this is Vitate,as Valkorion((Oh and btw,as Valkorion Vitiate has proven to be stronger than Sidious))
He became an immoveable object,even a black hole/whorm hole couldnt move him and nothing could stand his wake