Carving a Violin Top Plate | CNC violin | Guanari 'del Gesu' Vieutemps
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- In part 10 I will be cutting the top plate of the Guarnieri 'del Gesu' Vieutemps violin from 1741. I will discus the process I go through to refine the tooling and tool paths for cutting arch top instruments.
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Nice work! You know, if the old luthiers had cnc machines , they would have used them. It’s not cheating, it’s a tool, just like a plane. Nice work! I’m trying your model in my machine today, although I’m using VCarv and Mach3, not Fusion. We’ll see how it goes!
Dave
Since you made this 17-part series of your CNC produced copy of the Guaneri 'del Gesu" Vieutemps, you probably have become aware of the CNC copy of a Stradivarius done from actual CT scans of an actual Strad. The team that produced it used carefully selected, aged wood to get as close to the density and grain of the Strad. It was later stained and made to look almost identical to the actual violin by a museum reproduction professional. Later it was presented to a group of violin professionals and music experts at a music seminar. Both the original Strad and the copy were played side by side, without telling the audience which was which. They then voted for which one they thought was the actual Strad. Amazingly, they got it wrong. If nothing else, it proves that CNC produced instruments can, in fact, be very good-sounding instruments. The main difference between the ones being mass-produced primarily in China, and the handmade individually crafted bench violins being made both in China and many other countries, is that the wood quality used for the CNC is not of the exceptional grades that most luthiers seek out when they are going to put the time into hand carving. The cheapest ones also often are flawed by production shortcuts. I have both a Chinese bench made violin ($4,000) and a CNC made Chinese violin ($350). In all honesty, there is a difference in the sound, though the inexpensive one has a decent sound even for performance. The bench made is bit a easier to play and a has warmer tone and is more resonant. As I'm sure you know, there are so many other variables that come into play (string selection, quality of bow hair, rosin, skill level of the player, etc.) that it is very difficult to make a dogmatic claim that CNC violins aren't as good as hand carved. For those who argue that hand carved violins are more "unique", I would reply that most of them are also copies of the most well-known Strads, Guaneri's, Amatis, etc. and show little uniqueness even in the assemblage. The biggest thing that makes them unique is the wood itself... and that can also be true of CNC made violins. For the most part, it is just the hard-core traditionalists who hate to think that one day everyone might be able to afford a great sounding violin, and no one will stand out... which of course isn't true. No matter how much the violins look and sound alike, the skill of the player will always be what makes it truly great.
Fascinating 👍🎻
Your doing a amazing job. I need one so I can finish clearing it for you.
thanks,
Ok thanks
Came from the Fusion 360 Luthiers group. Looking great will be following.
Thanks for watching.
I love the integral bass bar, back in the 50s harmony made in archtop guitar that used an integral carved set of parallel bars! When I saw it it was a game changer in guitar Construction for Archtops
I ended up remaking the top with a traditional bass bar, It's and interesting Idea, but it's going to take some work to get it right.
@@TwoCherriesIns And where are Harmony and Kay today?
Very cool my man
Thanks
Good job,please do you the vectors? How much this cost? I whant to do 1 to my son
I share the fusion 360 archive file woth all the cad and cam used to make them on Patreon.
May I please know the size of CNC I need to carve the top plate and neck. Love your desire for accuracy. Tks.
That I would not know, mine is 24" by 48" and for me its a bit small so I'm building a 50" by 50"
Which type of wood you used for top plate...
I use engelman and sitka spruce.
That is awesome
Thanks
Where can i get de cnc drawing file(s) - i do have a cnc machine and i love violins
I share my fusion 360 CAD and CAM files with my patreon members.www.patreon.com/Twocherriesinstruments
Amazing video
Thanks, I'm in the middle of remaking this top plate for the next video in this series. I changed the geometry a bit and I wanted a thinner more flexible top.
Are you able to graduate the top thickness to mirror a master top? (2.7mm - 3.4mm)
Is that the top thickness or the graduation dimension?
This is set up as close to the original as possible, but small changes in thickness are pretty easy when running the CAM. I tend to work them out manually to get the tone production I'm going for.
@@TwoCherriesIns Thats the top thickness. It seems that it's about 3.4mm in the center and 2.7mm on the sides with different measures in-between on either side of the bass bar. The graduations help articulate various bass and treble tones. There are graduation top dimensions available online for reference. Backs are also graduated. Besides woods, it seems the graduations are what separate the production violins from the master grades. It would be quite a feat to get the CNC to replicate a master-grade violin in all aspects. Yet again, graduating is probably an art that is applied specifically for each top and back and the graduating dimensions not set in stone though you could probably rough it out with your CNC programing. Cheers
@@davidsimpson3380 the thing is its not all about dimensions, two pieces of wood at the same dimensions sound different, the best tone comes from both a good lumber and the correct dimensions for that piece. I use the cnc to rough in the top and back, and I tune them traditionally.
@@TwoCherriesIns I believe you're on the right track. Good Luck!
This is amazing. As a professional Violinist, I have always wanted to build a violin. I recently discovered the X-Carve and I am thinking of getting one, but I just discovered you tonight and I am wondering if you built this CNC. ?? If so, do you have a build thread somewhere?
This CNC is a kit from CNC router parts; I don't have a video series on the build for this one. I'm in the process of designing a new machine that I will document on the channel. I hope you will subscribe and follow the content. Thanks!
I was shocked a professional.violin player said it! It actually makes zero sense to actually carve tops and backs by hand.
@@davidthurman3963 Zero sense from an efficiency standpoint, but I do understand the desire to maintain traditional methods and skills. There is value in both, I think
@@davidthurman3963 I'm a woodworker doing kitchen cabinets and furniture for a living. Ever since I visited Taylor guitar factory and bought a used Taylor guitar, I realize that I like the look of a quality CNC guitar over a handmade looking instrument. Having said that, I don't own any CNC tools. I think if I ever decided to make guitars with carved tops, I would get into CNC work as it seems like such a natural way to go for what you're trying to do. I wonder if roughing out pieces with a CNC and then hand working them to making an instrument would be a nice compromise.
For the static problem, ground the metalwork of your machine and/or wrap your extraction use in aluminium foil tape and ground that. That said no well designed controller should shut down from that level of static so give the manufacturer a bollocking.
I have tried a lot of different grounding methods and I haven't found a resolution yet. The controller is a gecko g540, the real issues is the PC power supply shutting down, it doesn't happen without the dust collector running.
Really great stuff. I'm interested to know if you might be planning on a Fusion 360 RUclips CAD for the Cremona cello top/back. Just askin'
I would love to do that, It takes quite a bit of planning and research to do theses so I'll start looking into it.
Saying that you are cheating using a CNC is like saying that someone that's going by car is cheating, they should walk instead. I like what you are doing. Question...I can see that you are incorporating the bass bar in your cut. How can you achieve the tension that a regular bass bar is giving to the top?
I have made several mandolins (more string tension than a violin) with integrated bass bars, they are not quite as stiff as a glued in bar but only slightly less. I really don't know how it will effect the tone of a violin. We will have to see...
@@TwoCherriesIns OK...let's see. For what it's worth...What I have learned is that the bass bar should apply the same pressure as the sound post to the top and when you do so...it's visible on the top of the f-hole...the little tongue should be slightly raised above the surface of the top...on both sides. I'm following you :-)! Good luck!
Integrated bass bar have some advantages compared to glued ones. Structure of the wood is more consistent with top plate and theoretically it is the best way to go.
I dont think that tension of the bass bar is critical for top plate resonating qualities.
The problem with this CNC made bass bar is that it will need a lot of reshaping which will be difficult to make as it is integral part of top plate. It is too thick in upper area. it must be planed from sides. I don't know any efficient method how to do that quicky and precisely.
Plz send all details about violin cnc machine (sldprt or stp)
The files are available on my Patreon.
I'd love to make a violin doing what you're doing with a CNC machine but I don't know how.
It all starts small and a pice at a time. I wouldn't take on something like this from the start, but If you keep working you will get there.
Hi just wanted to know if you would be willing to share your modal step file of your violin as I would love to try this myself but made from aluminium
I share it with my patron members, ony $1 per month. www.patreon.com/Twocherriesinstruments
Magnífica a máquina vc vende?
I share the Fusion360 files with my Patreon members. If your looking to have a custom instrument made I do that as well through my website.
www.patreon.com/Twocherriesinstruments
www.twocherriesinstruments.com
HURDY GURDY 🙏🙏🙏 You know you want to 💙
It will happen!
@@TwoCherriesIns I'll Subscribe just for that ❤🍒
Going to cut the F-holes with the CNC ?
Also, why not make a gig to flip the plate over? Wouldn’t that be more accurate?
The 3d trace operation for f-holes is one of my favorite parts.
instagram.com/p/BgAbdCxhTGp/?igshid=w2z9gzpxbspc
If I was got into production I would definitely be making fixtures for indexing the plate when flipped. I will probably only make 2 or thee of these before I will want to try something different. The way I'm doing it works for me.
Keep up the good work. Forget the negativity and have fun. I was also wondering about how the different hardwoods effect the sound. Double sided tape? That way not need to line up to the bottom tape just the actual wood?
Thanks, double-sided tape is much more expensive, and it always comes lose under load or vibration. Masking tape and CA glue is cheap and holds better than anything.
** Guarnieri del Gesù Vieuxtemps
I am impressed with what you are doing. The way the CBC does this design will be more accurate than a human try. Using human hands will not produce 2 of the same. I was keen to find out how the plates are mass produced. I am keen to buy a good sounding violin. I am still doing the research to find out hand made or CnC made is the best. Please let me know if you know how it is mass produced.. Thanks for taking time to post your creations. All the best.
Thanks,
Wow I need your information wow
You can always contact me through my website twocherriesinstruments.com
Mach3 represent
CNC can never do what the great luthiers have done for hundreds of years.
There is not one set of perfect measurements. Every great violin is different from all others.
All is dependent on the stiffness and texture of each and every wooden part.
That is determined by years of experience carving and fitting all the parts into the best possible instrument.
The feel of the resistance when carving tells the luthier the proper thickness of each piece.
The way the plates bend under the tension he twists them with.
No two pieces of wood are the same, Not even from the same tree.
No two luthiers are the same.
No two musicians are the same.
No computer programs can find this out. Not even AI.
All goes back to that saying I first heard in the early 70's, "Garbage in, Garbage out.
It may look like a violin, but will end up being a item that looks like a violin.
You obviously didn't watch the video, I only rough carve on the cnc, the tuning is all done manually, just like it was by the masters.
@@TwoCherriesIns By the time the masters got to that part they already were intimate with the wood under their fingers. They also knew that what was required in a spruce tone bar was far different from what was needed in the spruce belly. They are not the same density.
@andydepaule3296 well not really, that work would have been done by apprentices, and the way we learn is to test these assumptions, and I came to a similar conclusion, and learned a bunch of things on the way.
An apprentice is not a CNC machine. He or she is a human and that is far more complex than any computer.
@@TwoCherriesIns If you are going for mass production then this would be the way to go today. However if you want to copy the masters, you need to work like them. Guanari del Gesu was poor and I don't think he had any apprentice. I've worked in a violin mill for a couple of years and know well the difference.
I would rather buy a down a hand cut and carved violin 🎻.
Ok, are you going to go with the near slave labor factory instrument or the beautifully hand made skilled luthier? I hope you can afford to pay the luthier a living wage in either case. I won't even go into whether or not you can tell the difference tonally. Seriously, what is the difference? I live in a city that's home to one of the premier violin making schools; they have fantastic instruments hand made by the students, I would love to have one, but I can't even begin to fathom how I could afford one. The amount of labor it takes to make these instruments is crazy! Rough with the CNC and refined by hand makes this process only slightly more efficient. It's a way for luthiers to make a better living. I have also had a lot of interest from luthiers that can no longer do this intensive rough handwork as they get older. You don't want an instrument made by an experienced maker because he used a machine? Am I at fault for attempting to find a way to work more accurately; possibly extending the years I can work? I have a hard time understanding comments like yours.
@@TwoCherriesIns I bought my violins from a friend who is a luthier in Cremona, Italy 🇮🇹.
@@masterchief586 The question of whether or not you paid him a living wage for his labor remains.
@@TwoCherriesIns Yes I did, my Del Gesu was 14,000, and my Strad was 10,000.
@@masterchief586
That's great, but there is no way that most of us can put that kind of money into an instrument. I would call my violin a decent quality student instrument or a good fiddle. If you are looking for a superlative instrument, the violins produced currently by luthiers like the one that made yours are excellent. It's an excellent idea to support a luthier locally; whether your a beginner, student, or professional.
Oh man I wish I could do what your doing
If I can do anything to help let me know, there is no reason you can't do this too...
Two Cherries Instruments yes It’s my dream to be a violin maker one day but I’m stuck in Australia with a young family far away from any violin making school so I live vicariously through the internet watching every violin making vid I can find.
Two Cherries Instruments maybe you could tell me the machine model, costs, to set up and basically anything and everything I’d need to know and buy to do this. The more info the better. If you don’t mind that is.
@@damianc80 absolutely, I'm working on a video about cnc machine troubleshooting, I will add some information about the machine and costs/setup.
Cello.
It's in the works, I have already done the CAD and CAM work, files are up on my Patreon.
@@TwoCherriesIns try using African blackwood for the fretboard, very hard and very musical.
Well it is interesting as an an abstract study, but there is much that is not right. The bass bar is properly made from a separate piece but you have simply carved it out integrally, and, no disrespect, the purfling inlay is awful.
This integrated bass bar was an experiment, as I stated in the video. I ended up using a more traditional style bass bar, It comes along later in the series. As for the purfling, only the channel is cut in this video, after the inlay is installed I run a finish pass that cuts through the joint. It ends up quite clean. You should also remember that this is the first time I did this, it's quite unfair to compare to someone with a great deal of experience.
@@TwoCherriesIns My apologies, I was a bit harsh. Please forgive me.
Nice job, terrible music.
it is cheating. and great that you are doing it for fun but it’s reeeeeally audacious to even associate the name guarneri with anything you’re doing. that’s how you spell it btw... not “guaneri.” and it’s vieuxtemps*. this is a joke.
Ahh, how sweet of you to leave such a nice comment. Do you comment on everyone's builds from your bedroom in your mom's basement? Yes, I make mistakes, I'll bet you make them from time to time as well. How about the old hand makers that have contacted me for my models because their hands will no longer allow them to carve by hand? Will you leave such nice comments for them as well. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be, but I don't see anything you have made here at all, In fact, you have posted zero videos, glasshouses my friend. In retrospect, I think my first comment, while seemingly accurate, was a little harsh, so I apologize. Thanks for watching, I'm sure you will subscribe and leave many more insightful comments that I look forward to responding to. I will return the favor and subscribe you your channel (along with that one other dude) and watch all your playlist of other people's videos.
Oh boy, I just can't help myself, to anyone who is reading this, go have a look at Billy T's playlists, you won't believe what music he has in his "good shit" playlist... The back street boys? At you joking....
Nice work! You know, if the old luthiers had cnc machines , they would have used them. It’s not cheating, it’s a tool, just like a plane. Nice work! I’m trying your model in my machine today, although I’m using VCarv and Mach3, not Fusion. We’ll see how it goes!
Dave
Thanks, and good luck