I really enjoyed listening about both concepts. Being 56 yrs old, there is just not enough time I don't think to learn what a master maker has to learn so this CNC concept is very appealing. I am sure as technology gets even better and with certain maker knowledge that a really good instrument can be made this way. However, nothing will ever replace a true master maker and John was quick to point that out. The difference is every piece of wood is different and a a maker makes all of these subtle adjustments along the way to get to the finished piece and learning this could take a life time.
This was a fascinating discussion. I like the idea of a master maker, like you Edgar, using high resolution scans of great instruments and the very best woods you have selected, to craft the neck and scroll and the plates to the level where you are scraping the arching, and finalizing the thicknessing, fine tuning the plates if you will. The CNC is thus like a maker apprentice providing you with the plates “in the rough” but to the dimensions you require for that instrument. Most of the process in this manner of making is the same as has been done for centuries and the CNC machine just provides you with the basis of crafting the plates, such that you may be able to produce several more instruments per year.
There is a parable here with CNC in fine instrument making and the use of pin- hole cameras (camera obscura) in fine art history. Many great painters of the renaissance period secretly used a camera obscura to trace all the elements onto the canvas from life. They also had the experience of thousands of hours painting from observation. Combining the skill in the hands with the accuracy of tracing from life made for some of the most beautiful works of art ever made. Vermeer is famous for his secretive use of a camera obscura to create seemingly impossible paintings by hand.
So interesting. Furch guitars are tuning sound boards for acoustic guitars with CNC machines. They are controlled based on measurements taken from testing the properties of the soundboard material.
I think the important thing for cnc is that those who use it are honest about it. Hand crafted and cnc can live side by side, affordable instruments are essential. Music should always be inclusive and not exclusive.
15:13 "the more I give to others the less I know what I have to do". The key point I think. Most of the work can be automated or given to apprentices, making the craftsman far more productive, but something is lost if he or she does only the fine tuning and the finishing touches. Something your customers and John Kirk can hear when they play a true 'handcrafted' instrument. Only some parts are made by your own hands. The right ones.
Excellent interview! I like how both parties are open to new ideas. I do think that Edgar’s 2-3% number is low. I think the “master’s touch” is closer to 10-20%. In other words, even if you could get CNC to make perfect copies of 300 year old violin parts, you still have wood characteristics (timber from the same tree varies in sound quality), assembly, gluing, varnishing, sound post placement, string type, etc. to contend with.
As a former cnc operator and someone starting to build instruments, I feel that they can both exist. I feel that the front and back plates could easily be roughed out by cnc then the master can fine tune them by ear. I even have an idea to balance the plates similar to how jet turbines are balanced that would be fun to experiment with.
@@jedgurley think of it this way, cnc just frees up time for finish work. You can pay the luthier to spend time roughing out blanks or you can free up that time and spend it on the tuning and finish work. Even master luthiers like Edgar have their apprentices rough out the blanks.
@@jedgurley CNC machines aren't cheap to run generally though. Not sure what luthiers come out to in money for time, but the shop I work at charges a hundred fifty bucks an hour or so I think for supervised machine runtime. We could probably turn out ten or fifteen blanks in a day on each machine were we set up to run wood, but that comes out to about $1200 for the full 8 hour time we work. So about $100 a blank. It's wood so my time estimates are probably not great because I do metal. You could probably do it a bit cheaper than that. But still not free.
You have to tap the wood like a bell. Sound must guide construction. Every piece of wood is different, to get the best out of it, only human experience can do this job.
great video😁 I love how even though they both have different ideas and and ways of doing things they both are interested in each others work. it is truly inspiring
I understand the romance of hand building a violin or cello but appreciate using a CNC to remove the majority of the wood. But it takes a master luthier’s touch to finish it properly. This comes only from reading books and watching videos, I have yet to create my own instrument. One idea I found in my reading was to use a small electric motor with an imbalance weight and clamp it to the surface of the finished instrument. Letting this run for a period of time accelerates “seasoning” of the wood to get it to relax and bring in an older played instrument sound. Versus a fresh instrument that brings in a tone after being played for many hours. Not sure if this method is being used today or a passing fad. Just seemed like a valid approach to me. My home is best Montana in Idaho and I would enjoy paying this fellow a visit. Cheers and thank you for this video.
As a CNC tinkerer, I'd love to see John Kirk's shop. At least my frustration in my VSO has been small shifts in X,Y for the flip as John mentioned. I'd like to see how he handles that and secures the work. It might just be a gap between the artist and the engineer to think in maximizing accuracy in reproduction. In reality, you can't get the CNC 1/10,000 by hand, and it's the board tuning that takes in the wood, the minor "improvisations" from the carve and varies the thickness for the 1:1 instrument from the stock patterns both follow. I'd like to hear what Edgar found not quite right with a CNC board for tuning as it should be near his own apprentices. Perhaps it's a spot where the profile should be higher or lower during the carve because of the wood that a fixed CNC pattern can't compensate for?
Numerical Control machines were around in the middle 60's for sure no idea why it first came but the factory I was working in 1966 had plenty of NC machines.
I think it’s a great idea! You can always cnc the piece of wood in the beginning to a near finished state then do the last 10% touches and of course put it together etc. and maximise the sound. So yes I think it’s a great idea! Saves a lot of time in the beginning to spend in the last touches. More time to perfect and create a unique sound that makes a lasting impression. Have you considered treating the wood for better qualities? Fungus treatment or chemical ??
Hello Edgar, we use CNCs to mill composites gliders molds here. I think I understand your both respective technics, starting points, and levels of craftmanship. It's very obvious that when your are cutting ang carving your top and bottom, you discover the wood properties on the go, and you have the time to adapt your gestures to the needs. It's a living and interactive process with the wood pieces and the finality that is step by step possible to achieve, constantly revealing itself. A cnc pre-cut or pre-carving operation would cut you from this crucial work, and finally totally disturb you in the realisation. We can perhaps estimate the ecenomy of time , that should be 15% in the basic work preparation, Not sure that it'd be a gain of time and quality in the end. But wow, very curious to see where one can push the CNC work , if one have very regular or synthetic materials, like artificial wood. With composites, one could achieve to imitate the wood structure, density and layers (loosing the soul of violin making..) but it's a very interesting subject
There is a way to embrace both worlds. As a maker, you can have CNC mills which perform the tedious and time-consuming preparations and still use your skills to make each instrument a unique piece. I’m not an instrument maker but I am a “maker” and I have found that in order to compete in today’s market, you have to do both and allow a certain automation into your creative process. How much % you want hand vs. machine is up to you. Just think about it, as Edgar says, he uses electric band saws and this does not diminish the quality of his instruments. There may be purists out there who would be appalled by the use of any electrical appliances for instrument making. Important is, the resulting price of an instrument and the true gain in quality.
The CNC mill is imposing quite high vibrations on the wood while machining. Does this influence the resonance properties of the timber? Maybe a question for John Kirk.
It shouldn't. CNC machines will vibrate but a massive part of setting one up is minimizing that. Any extra vibration makes your machine chatter and kills the quality of your cut. If a part is properly fixtured and the machine is rigid, any vibration should be localized enough to the cutter that it doesn't matter.
I realy like this discussion am very happy there is 2 maker make their instrumen with their own way and they all very passionate what they doing. Sure this is interesting talk❤
Large computers were available in universities. Many people like me and my dad built our own home computer in 1980. There were kits from Zenith Electronic and other plans floating around for other designs like the Apple II+.
Great video and very interesting. Having been interested in this subject it would seem logical that getting an exact copy of a Strad top and bottom plates would get a good replication of the sound. It turns out there are so many variables that ultimately the skill and knowledge of the luthier is fundamental. This is the point you and John are making. John's instruments I have not heard but he knows good sound being a cellist. He is sourcing wood from the forests in Montana, it is likely not the same as European forests. This element alone would make a good video for the two of you to discuss. Thank you.
To reach the high level you have to hand make under a master. The master who wanted to work by themself could then reduce the time by trial and error do the rough carving with machine. And spent their time finishing instruments and produce enough to make a living at it.
Very interesting. I have always been interested in what could be done with modern CNC machines, but I also suspected that they could not approach to same level of performance in an end instrument as one made by a Master Luthier. There is "magic in the hands".
Great video and discussion. Both Edgar and John have their approach and it is cool that there is no ignorance from both sides. And super interesting for those who ar on the learning path, as me.
Okay, so I put the like! =D Iam a starting harp maker. Doing everything slowly by hand and feel, no cnc planned and I really like this discusion! And I think its true for every "hand product" lowest price products are already made by automatization for a long time. Now is time that mid price can also be made by cnc but somewhere in high, there is some master level and not just mastery of hanf but more mastery of feel and intuition and that can be made by machines.. Never ever =) Thank you, Tomáš
Fascinating interview. I think a sonic analysis, like was done in the movie "The Red Violin," would add a critical level of improvement to what can be done with CNC. To get great results when working with wood requires accounting for how each individual piece flexes and vibrates, and how it performs when connected to other pieces of wood. This analysis would add what a Master Luthier knows through decades of experience and feel to the precision that can be achieved through CNC. Eventually, the day comes when the Luthier's hands can no longer make what their mind and heart desires. CNC can bridge that gap and fulfill that inspiration, and keep the Luthier's genius alive. Thanks
A CNC can get the soundboard VERY CLOSE. The dimensions on the best sounding violins ever made, have dimensions that are only a couple of millimeter difference from the thickest to the thinest part. None of them are beyond certain dimensions. It makes perfect sense to have the CNC get it to the outside of the final dimensions. Then you can refine the last thicknesses by hand, tuning it in relation to the density and acoustic characteristics of that piece of wood.
I think that CNC is a not the last step. In hardware testing equipment they use light projecting and analysis to determine validity). Master builders use light projecting when they process wood. Theoretically it's possible to make adaptive cnc so there is Middleware with AI that can adapt the processing to the specific piece of wood. I don't know if the end result will match a master builder but I'm quite sure it can outperform current CNC musical instruments manufacture solutions.
Anything considered as hand crafted art is beyond compare, the finest minds, hands tools will always contain minor imperfections that perhaps makes them special. The allure with historical musical instruments using mystique and legend perpetuate an illusion of unachievable excelence. The Ashmoleum museum in Oxford England has several Stradivarius violins considered too valuable to play and so are consigned to a life of being in a glass display case. A musician who for many years played a stolen Stradivarius disguised with boot polish no one ever said that is a Strad. To say modern violins cannot match the voice and tone of a Strad could be romantic indulgence or an eccentric obsession. Kind regards Tim
The same was argued about the American mass production of Watch parts against the Swiss and others hand made parts .The Americans produced very good parts that were interchangeable and reliably accurate and affordable and durable.The Swiss and others could not compete and even started to use American techniques.
A cnc definitely can't adjust for the different tone of every piece of wood. That is the biggest reason good handmade instruments will stay on top for a while to come. In the United States, we can still purchase raw ebony lumber.
I would think that in future, in roughing out and carving backs and tops and necks and scrolls, any mid price violin maker would have to go to CNC. The more expensive instruments would simply have more hand carving and tuning. Otherwise you just cannot compete with the quality coming out of China which is very good and always getting better. As they agree in this discussion, CNC has the power to make an instrument with a certain quality of sound less expensive. This is probably true up to the 15 or $20,000 level. Beyond which it doesn't really matter, saving time in handwork is not going to cut the price that much. But CNC would still allow any maker to simply produce more instruments, some of which will in the end sound better and some less so, and then that maker can price them accordingly. You never really know how an instrument is going to sound until it is finished and in the hands of a master. So the more instruments you can make, the better your odds are of getting those few that sound really extraordinary.
Is it as much to do with the wood and that no two billets are the same even if they sound the same? There must be irregularities because it's a naturally grown product.
Chinese violins are of course nowadays far better than just 'VSOs', so that comment was a bit misleading. There are some very fine Chinese hand makers and also really good quality Chinese origin student instruments.
Exactly.. Violin making could be learned, any nation. Depends on, on which price level you are aiming. And no usefull info is coming if somebody compare low level with high level.. Compare same levels. And simply, statistically, if more people in some nation will do it, higher chance that more talents will appear.. 😉 I have bought "Netherlands" violin by label.. My teacher said, decent, sounds good.. Good price/quality ratio. I made little investigation.. So produced in China 🤞
I think they mean like from dropshipping companies guys like Alibaba/Aliexpress, eBay & Amazon Mass produced violins that were made through shortcuts, not the CNC ones here that the guy here is doing.
People need to stop thinking that the Chinese are only making VSOs sold by Amazon etc. of course that is still true. But at this point in 2024 I would say that almost all instruments in good American violin shops under $5,000 are Chinese made. Certainly under $3,000. Many supposed violin makers are simply importing Chinese white instruments ie unfinished, and they finish and set them up. And of course at this price point they are made of solid wood they are carved by CNC, and finished to some degree by hand. Some shops are open about this and some are less so. If they happen to sound good when finished, then they put a higher price tag on them. If you are not against having a Chinese instrument in principle, just going by quality and sound, you could probably go up to $20,000 or more and expect very competitive quality.
If violins were made from manufactured materials, the CNC would win hands down. Same material + same dimensions every time = same result. But we like trees! I do think there is value in getting the pieces close with the CNC and finishing by hand.
Kirk? From billings!!!! We lived in billings! On 24th st w...Lived less then a block from his shop. My viola is one of his Genoa violas... And my husband selected one of his restorations... An old German violin. His wife is a gem!... Actually it was Kirk who rekindled an interest in violin making... Which then led me to find you Edgar, and your academy... Now I am in rexburg... Doing violin repairs and finishing up Edgar's academy. It's such a treat to see Kirk on your channel... He said in his email that he was going to cremona... 😁 hi kirk!
That is the 10 million dollar question! Having played many beautiful sounding instruments, it really depends on the artist’s (definitely not me) ear. The variables are nearly endless. Moving the sound post a 10th of millimeter can make all the difference. The strings, the bridge angle, THE BOW, etc The basic sound of an instrument is I believe aurally measurable but where? Under the ear sounds completely different 100 feet away. That resonance you can feel, even when talking near the instrument in your hands, I think gives one a good handle on the potential. Clearly, one does not need to (always) spend $10 million to get a violin that sounds soul inspiring, The sound needs to be “perfect” for the artist that makes it sound “perfect” for the listener. We are always in the pursuit of perfection and that is what gives meaning and joy in music. The famous Heifetz response when a fan tells him how beautiful his violin sounds and holds it up to his ear and and says, (paraphrasing) “Funny. I don’t hear anything.”, kinda sums things up.
500likes...very interesting ...a hand made violin by a good craft man is way better...is like going to a Gourmet Restaurant or a fast food...no comparison...Great video...Thank you!!!
You got it very well!!! Gourmet/ Fast Food!!!!! 👌🏼 But even Fast food can be made well and healthy!!! It’s just different and has to be sold as what it is!
A CNC machine just affords you to make a shape based on a pre programmed set of data. What it does not do is fine tune that particular piece of wood that will become a fine sounding instrument. I would use that first step to save the tediousness of the carving and put all my efforts into the finetuning of that particular piece of wood to achieve a well crafted and sounding instrument for less money. I would apply AI to get that piece of wood further along and that is only a function of how good the knowledge is transfered to the machine. It will never equal the years of learning by a talented human luthier.
I am sick and tired of hearing about Chinese saying things that doesn’t make sense with my experience . I do like to start making violin is far I am at the bottom .the problem that we have is selfish for example working in a company store during Christmas there was a challenging for painting Santa Clause and others paper drawings .the was a woman that she knew drawing and her painting wasn’t like true painter in details . My drawing did have detail of shadow and depth .she won because friends,I was from Europe conclusively why some is trying every one is trying to disregard is work .
no, violins are also art. nobody is intrested in a painting made by a robot. same is for violins. factory made instruments are only good for student grade instruments
Most of what matters is the fine tuning of the wood. You wouldn't object to buying a painting because the painter didn't make the canvas himself by grinding up wood and pressing it to dry, but it would make a painting that much more unique if he had.
John truly respects Edgars master skills as a violinmaker. This was a great discussion. Thank you!
I really enjoyed listening about both concepts. Being 56 yrs old, there is just not enough time I don't think to learn what a master maker has to learn so this CNC concept is very appealing. I am sure as technology gets even better and with certain maker knowledge that a really good instrument can be made this way. However, nothing will ever replace a true master maker and John was quick to point that out. The difference is every piece of wood is different and a a maker makes all of these subtle adjustments along the way to get to the finished piece and learning this could take a life time.
This was a fascinating discussion. I like the idea of a master maker, like you Edgar, using high resolution scans of great instruments and the very best woods you have selected, to craft the neck and scroll and the plates to the level where you are scraping the arching, and finalizing the thicknessing, fine tuning the plates if you will. The CNC is thus like a maker apprentice providing you with the plates “in the rough” but to the dimensions you require for that instrument. Most of the process in this manner of making is the same as has been done for centuries and the CNC machine just provides you with the basis of crafting the plates, such that you may be able to produce several more instruments per year.
There is a parable here with CNC in fine instrument making and the use of pin- hole cameras (camera obscura) in fine art history. Many great painters of the renaissance period secretly used a camera obscura to trace all the elements onto the canvas from life. They also had the experience of thousands of hours painting from observation. Combining the skill in the hands with the accuracy of tracing from life made for some of the most beautiful works of art ever made. Vermeer is famous for his secretive use of a camera obscura to create seemingly impossible paintings by hand.
So interesting. Furch guitars are tuning sound boards for acoustic guitars with CNC machines. They are controlled based on measurements taken from testing the properties of the soundboard material.
I think the important thing for cnc is that those who use it are honest about it. Hand crafted and cnc can live side by side, affordable instruments are essential.
Music should always be inclusive and not exclusive.
The focus in my view is not "affordable", rather repeatable. The idea of the CNC as an "apprentice" is fascinating!
15:13 "the more I give to others the less I know what I have to do". The key point I think. Most of the work can be automated or given to apprentices, making the craftsman far more productive, but something is lost if he or she does only the fine tuning and the finishing touches. Something your customers and John Kirk can hear when they play a true 'handcrafted' instrument. Only some parts are made by your own hands. The right ones.
Excellent interview! I like how both parties are open to new ideas. I do think that Edgar’s 2-3% number is low. I think the “master’s touch” is closer to 10-20%. In other words, even if you could get CNC to make perfect copies of 300 year old violin parts, you still have wood characteristics (timber from the same tree varies in sound quality), assembly, gluing, varnishing, sound post placement, string type, etc. to contend with.
As a former cnc operator and someone starting to build instruments, I feel that they can both exist. I feel that the front and back plates could easily be roughed out by cnc then the master can fine tune them by ear. I even have an idea to balance the plates similar to how jet turbines are balanced that would be fun to experiment with.
Swedish luthier Peter is describing his tuning process on youtube. If you can automate that you will be a hero.
I think the hands on part is what is important,, but if someone uses CNC and charges hands on craftsmanship prices, it's not fair.
@@jedgurley think of it this way, cnc just frees up time for finish work. You can pay the luthier to spend time roughing out blanks or you can free up that time and spend it on the tuning and finish work. Even master luthiers like Edgar have their apprentices rough out the blanks.
@@jedgurley CNC machines aren't cheap to run generally though. Not sure what luthiers come out to in money for time, but the shop I work at charges a hundred fifty bucks an hour or so I think for supervised machine runtime. We could probably turn out ten or fifteen blanks in a day on each machine were we set up to run wood, but that comes out to about $1200 for the full 8 hour time we work. So about $100 a blank. It's wood so my time estimates are probably not great because I do metal. You could probably do it a bit cheaper than that. But still not free.
@@Soundpost-f2l It is insanely cheap to machine wood.
You have to tap the wood like a bell. Sound must guide construction. Every piece of wood is different, to get the best out of it, only human experience can do this job.
great video😁 I love how even though they both have different ideas and and ways of doing things they both are interested in each others work. it is truly inspiring
I understand the romance of hand building a violin or cello but appreciate using a CNC to remove the majority of the wood. But it takes a master luthier’s touch to finish it properly. This comes only from reading books and watching videos, I have yet to create my own instrument. One idea I found in my reading was to use a small electric motor with an imbalance weight and clamp it to the surface of the finished instrument. Letting this run for a period of time accelerates “seasoning” of the wood to get it to relax and bring in an older played instrument sound. Versus a fresh instrument that brings in a tone after being played for many hours. Not sure if this method is being used today or a passing fad. Just seemed like a valid approach to me. My home is best Montana in Idaho and I would enjoy paying this fellow a visit. Cheers and thank you for this video.
Search for Tonerite :)
Fascinating, thank you
As a CNC tinkerer, I'd love to see John Kirk's shop. At least my frustration in my VSO has been small shifts in X,Y for the flip as John mentioned. I'd like to see how he handles that and secures the work. It might just be a gap between the artist and the engineer to think in maximizing accuracy in reproduction. In reality, you can't get the CNC 1/10,000 by hand, and it's the board tuning that takes in the wood, the minor "improvisations" from the carve and varies the thickness for the 1:1 instrument from the stock patterns both follow. I'd like to hear what Edgar found not quite right with a CNC board for tuning as it should be near his own apprentices. Perhaps it's a spot where the profile should be higher or lower during the carve because of the wood that a fixed CNC pattern can't compensate for?
Numerical Control machines were around in the middle 60's for sure no idea why it first came but the factory I was working in 1966 had plenty of NC machines.
He’s talking CNC. They didn’t have computers that ran three dimensional programs back then. He even pointed out that he had to write his own programs.
I think it’s a great idea! You can always cnc the piece of wood in the beginning to a near finished state then do the last 10% touches and of course put it together etc. and maximise the sound. So yes I think it’s a great idea! Saves a lot of time in the beginning to spend in the last touches. More time to perfect and create a unique sound that makes a lasting impression. Have you considered treating the wood for better qualities? Fungus treatment or chemical ??
Hello Edgar, we use CNCs to mill composites gliders molds here. I think I understand your both respective technics, starting points, and levels of craftmanship. It's very obvious that when your are cutting ang carving your top and bottom, you discover the wood properties on the go, and you have the time to adapt your gestures to the needs. It's a living and interactive process with the wood pieces and the finality that is step by step possible to achieve, constantly revealing itself. A cnc pre-cut or pre-carving operation would cut you from this crucial work, and finally totally disturb you in the realisation. We can perhaps estimate the ecenomy of time , that should be 15% in the basic work preparation, Not sure that it'd be a gain of time and quality in the end. But wow, very curious to see where one can push the CNC work , if one have very regular or synthetic materials, like artificial wood. With composites, one could achieve to imitate the wood structure, density and layers (loosing the soul of violin making..) but it's a very interesting subject
It's just amazing that certain innovations on violin family start with cellists, such as Luis Leguia and this guy.
Although Luis Leguía was not the first maker of carbon fiber violin family instruments, he is an innovator of such.
There is a way to embrace both worlds. As a maker, you can have CNC mills which perform the tedious and time-consuming preparations and still use your skills to make each instrument a unique piece.
I’m not an instrument maker but I am a “maker” and I have found that in order to compete in today’s market, you have to do both and allow a certain automation into your creative process. How much % you want hand vs. machine is up to you.
Just think about it, as Edgar says, he uses electric band saws and this does not diminish the quality of his instruments. There may be purists out there who would be appalled by the use of any electrical appliances for instrument making. Important is, the resulting price of an instrument and the true gain in quality.
Wonderful interview, thank you
The CNC mill is imposing quite high vibrations on the wood while machining. Does this influence the resonance properties of the timber? Maybe a question for John Kirk.
It shouldn't. CNC machines will vibrate but a massive part of setting one up is minimizing that. Any extra vibration makes your machine chatter and kills the quality of your cut. If a part is properly fixtured and the machine is rigid, any vibration should be localized enough to the cutter that it doesn't matter.
Wow, John Kirk, I own one of his high end violins, and its sound is amongst the best in my small collection.
I live in Billings MT where he lives. I use to live right around the corner from his shop.
I realy like this discussion am very happy there is 2 maker make their instrumen with their own way and they all very passionate what they doing. Sure this is interesting talk❤
In 1979, about the only personal computers available were the Radio Shack Tandy TRS-80 (trash 80), Acorn, the Apple 2, and Commadore PET2001
Large computers were available in universities.
Many people like me and my dad built our own home computer in 1980. There were kits from Zenith Electronic and other plans floating around for other designs like the Apple II+.
How big were the computers onboard the first mission to the moon?
Absolutely fascinating. Thankyou.
Great video and very interesting. Having been interested in this subject it would seem logical that getting an exact copy of a Strad top and bottom plates would get a good replication of the sound. It turns out there are so many variables that ultimately the skill and knowledge of the luthier is fundamental. This is the point you and John are making. John's instruments I have not heard but he knows good sound being a cellist. He is sourcing wood from the forests in Montana, it is likely not the same as European forests. This element alone would make a good video for the two of you to discuss. Thank you.
To reach the high level you have to hand make under a master. The master who wanted to work by themself could then reduce the time by trial and error do the rough carving with machine. And spent their time finishing instruments and produce enough to make a living at it.
Very interesting. I have always been interested in what could be done with modern CNC machines, but I also suspected that they could not approach to same level of performance in an end instrument as one made by a Master Luthier.
There is "magic in the hands".
Great video and discussion. Both Edgar and John have their approach and it is cool that there is no ignorance from both sides. And super interesting for those who ar on the learning path, as me.
John shop is in Billings. Small town? Hardly.
Okay, so I put the like! =D
Iam a starting harp maker. Doing everything slowly by hand and feel, no cnc planned and I really like this discusion!
And I think its true for every "hand product" lowest price products are already made by automatization for a long time.
Now is time that mid price can also be made by cnc but somewhere in high, there is some master level and not just mastery of hanf but more mastery of feel and intuition and that can be made by machines.. Never ever =)
Thank you, Tomáš
This was a very sparkling discussion. 😊
Fascinating interview. I think a sonic analysis, like was done in the movie "The Red Violin," would add a critical level of improvement to what can be done with CNC.
To get great results when working with wood requires accounting for how each individual piece flexes and vibrates, and how it performs when connected to other pieces of wood. This analysis would add what a Master Luthier knows through decades of experience and feel to the precision that can be achieved through CNC.
Eventually, the day comes when the Luthier's hands can no longer make what their mind and heart desires. CNC can bridge that gap and fulfill that inspiration, and keep the Luthier's genius alive. Thanks
A CNC can get the soundboard VERY CLOSE. The dimensions on the best sounding violins ever made, have dimensions that are only a couple of millimeter difference from the thickest to the thinest part. None of them are beyond certain dimensions. It makes perfect sense to have the CNC get it to the outside of the final dimensions. Then you can refine the last thicknesses by hand, tuning it in relation to the density and acoustic characteristics of that piece of wood.
"Violinists hear with their eyes"
And I took that personally.
Thank you for this video. Just awesome!!
I think that CNC is a not the last step.
In hardware testing equipment they use light projecting and analysis to determine validity).
Master builders use light projecting when they process wood.
Theoretically it's possible to make adaptive cnc so there is Middleware with AI that can adapt the processing to the specific piece of wood.
I don't know if the end result will match a master builder but I'm quite sure it can outperform current CNC musical instruments manufacture solutions.
Amazing insights.
Anything considered as hand crafted art is beyond compare, the finest minds, hands tools will always contain minor imperfections that perhaps makes them special. The allure with historical musical instruments using mystique and legend perpetuate an illusion of unachievable excelence. The Ashmoleum museum in Oxford England has several Stradivarius violins considered too valuable to play and so are consigned to a life of being in a glass display case. A musician who for many years played a stolen Stradivarius disguised with boot polish no one ever said that is a Strad. To say modern violins cannot match the voice and tone of a Strad could be romantic indulgence or an eccentric obsession. Kind regards Tim
I make violins and cello with my cnc machine some experimenting different kind of wood
The same was argued about the American mass production of Watch parts against the Swiss and others hand made parts .The Americans produced very good parts that were interchangeable and reliably accurate and affordable and durable.The Swiss and others could not compete and even started to use American techniques.
A cnc definitely can't adjust for the different tone of every piece of wood. That is the biggest reason good handmade instruments will stay on top for a while to come. In the United States, we can still purchase raw ebony lumber.
Interesting.
I am wondering, if type of work depends.. 🤔. Router has rotating head, and chisel is working in align with wood threads..
If it’s has not been made how would we know. Kind regards Tim
I would think that in future, in roughing out and carving backs and tops and necks and scrolls, any mid price violin maker would have to go to CNC. The more expensive instruments would simply have more hand carving and tuning. Otherwise you just cannot compete with the quality coming out of China which is very good and always getting better. As they agree in this discussion, CNC has the power to make an instrument with a certain quality of sound less expensive. This is probably true up to the 15 or $20,000 level. Beyond which it doesn't really matter, saving time in handwork is not going to cut the price that much. But CNC would still allow any maker to simply produce more instruments, some of which will in the end sound better and some less so, and then that maker can price them accordingly. You never really know how an instrument is going to sound until it is finished and in the hands of a master. So the more instruments you can make, the better your odds are of getting those few that sound really extraordinary.
Is it as much to do with the wood and that no two billets are the same even if they sound the same? There must be irregularities because it's a naturally grown product.
Would have been a more convincing discussion if he'd have brought an assembled completed instrument with finish and setup.
Chinese violins are of course nowadays far better than just 'VSOs', so that comment was a bit misleading. There are some very fine Chinese hand makers and also really good quality Chinese origin student instruments.
Exactly.. Violin making could be learned, any nation. Depends on, on which price level you are aiming. And no usefull info is coming if somebody compare low level with high level.. Compare same levels. And simply, statistically, if more people in some nation will do it, higher chance that more talents will appear.. 😉
I have bought "Netherlands" violin by label.. My teacher said, decent, sounds good.. Good price/quality ratio. I made little investigation.. So produced in China 🤞
I think they mean like from dropshipping companies guys like Alibaba/Aliexpress, eBay & Amazon
Mass produced violins that were made through shortcuts,
not the CNC ones here that the guy here is doing.
People need to stop thinking that the Chinese are only making VSOs sold by Amazon etc. of course that is still true. But at this point in 2024 I would say that almost all instruments in good American violin shops under $5,000 are Chinese made. Certainly under $3,000. Many supposed violin makers are simply importing Chinese white instruments ie unfinished, and they finish and set them up. And of course at this price point they are made of solid wood they are carved by CNC, and finished to some degree by hand. Some shops are open about this and some are less so. If they happen to sound good when finished, then they put a higher price tag on them. If you are not against having a Chinese instrument in principle, just going by quality and sound, you could probably go up to $20,000 or more and expect very competitive quality.
If violins were made from manufactured materials, the CNC would win hands down. Same material + same dimensions every time = same result. But we like trees! I do think there is value in getting the pieces close with the CNC and finishing by hand.
Kirk? From billings!!!! We lived in billings! On 24th st w...Lived less then a block from his shop. My viola is one of his Genoa violas... And my husband selected one of his restorations... An old German violin. His wife is a gem!... Actually it was Kirk who rekindled an interest in violin making... Which then led me to find you Edgar, and your academy... Now I am in rexburg... Doing violin repairs and finishing up Edgar's academy.
It's such a treat to see Kirk on your channel... He said in his email that he was going to cremona... 😁 hi kirk!
If there would be a PERFECT violin. How would it sound?
That is the 10 million dollar question! Having played many beautiful sounding instruments, it really depends on the artist’s (definitely not me) ear. The variables are nearly endless. Moving the sound post a 10th of millimeter can make all the difference. The strings, the bridge angle, THE BOW, etc The basic sound of an instrument is I believe aurally measurable but where? Under the ear sounds completely different 100 feet away. That resonance you can feel, even when talking near the instrument in your hands, I think gives one a good handle on the potential. Clearly, one does not need to (always) spend $10 million to get a violin that sounds soul inspiring, The sound needs to be “perfect” for the artist that makes it sound “perfect” for the listener. We are always in the pursuit of perfection and that is what gives meaning and joy in music. The famous Heifetz response when a fan tells him how beautiful his violin sounds and holds it up to his ear and and says, (paraphrasing) “Funny. I don’t hear anything.”, kinda sums things up.
Is a better writer able to write better novels because he uses a typewriter instead of a pc with Microsoft Word?
time is money =))
Ah-ha. It just occurred to me that a thickness caliper is a computer--a mechanical analog computer.
There is a lot of runout in the grain of the cello back shown here.
500likes...very interesting ...a hand made violin by a good craft man is way better...is like going to a Gourmet Restaurant or a fast food...no comparison...Great video...Thank you!!!
You got it very well!!!
Gourmet/ Fast Food!!!!!
👌🏼
But even Fast food can be made well and healthy!!!
It’s just different and has to be sold as what it is!
Wait you paid 2000 Euro for pegs?
A CNC machine just affords you to make a shape based on a pre programmed set of data. What it does not do is fine tune that particular piece of wood that will become a fine sounding instrument. I would use that first step to save the tediousness of the carving and put all my efforts into the finetuning of that particular piece of wood to achieve a well crafted and sounding instrument for less money. I would apply AI to get that piece of wood further along and that is only a function of how good the knowledge is transfered to the machine. It will never equal the years of learning by a talented human luthier.
Don't tell me AI can make Stradivarius grade, master level violins? Awww....
His accent sounds slightly German.
I am sick and tired of hearing about Chinese saying things that doesn’t make sense with my experience . I do like to start making violin is far I am at the bottom .the problem that we have is selfish for example working in a company store during Christmas there was a challenging for painting Santa Clause and others paper drawings .the was a woman that she knew drawing and her painting wasn’t like true painter in details .
My drawing did have detail of shadow and depth .she won because friends,I was from Europe conclusively why some is trying every one is trying to disregard is work .
Too much talk, too little action. In fact, no action.
no, violins are also art. nobody is intrested in a painting made by a robot. same is for violins. factory made instruments are only good for student grade instruments
Most of what matters is the fine tuning of the wood. You wouldn't object to buying a painting because the painter didn't make the canvas himself by grinding up wood and pressing it to dry, but it would make a painting that much more unique if he had.
The key to happiness is embracing your level of achievement based on your level of commitment.