Intersectionality, individuality and the hero: a discussion with Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- I woke up at about five thirty this morning to a flood of ideas dealing with the emergence of what has been called "intersectionality" in the postmodern/identity politics world. Intersectionality is a movement based on the observation that the standard identity groups (race and gender, for example) don't sufficiently capture the variability in oppression that characterizes those who fit into both categories simultaneously (say, black woman). I realized that the intersection of six or more categories of variation (depending on the degree of differentiation) would produce "groups" of only one individual. In that manner, the idea of the individual is necessarily making its comeback in the ideologies of collectivism that characterize so much modern thinking. It's an inversion, an indication of our upside down world. Many more ideas came along with that one, some associated with the idea of categorization and the ideal (in a religious and symbolic sense). I decided to contact Jonathan Pageau, who is the embodied intersection of French Canadian, artist, orthodox icon carver, male, expert on postmodernism, and bearded, as I couldn't easily think of anyone else to talk to about such things.
I didn't edit it at all....
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Imagine being the person that Jordan wants to bounce ideas off. What a mark of respect. We are very lucky to have both of these fine men in our lives.
I’m so grateful Peterson has exposed this man to the world.
Dick pic exposed?
yes
Exposed the world to him, otherwise it sounds like a bad thing.
It’s funny how he giggles like a stoner.
Love hearing from Jonathan Pageau. Really interesting talks.
"i'm in a permanent state of being freaked out." same.
great start to this 😂😂😂
Weed mich help you out.
Ollie Chadra I know...I think he just stated a fact of life for us all these days, bless him.
Ollie Chadra Couldnt said it better.
Sounds like an anxiety disorder...
Kudos to Jonathan. If a world famous psychologist called me at 5:30 to talk about postmodernism, I'd be a bit dazed and confused.
I feel blessed that I have had the chance to talk with both of these men.
Kind of crazy that both videos came out on the same day. Jordan contacted me in a bit of an intellectual frenzy this morning, luckily I was around.
Jonathan Pageau We are living in crazy times, I am trying to be the trickster that will put things right side up.
Sorting Myself Out I see your comments on every talk 👍🏻 (thumbs up in case the emoji doesn't show up)
Sorting Myself Out I work at home and get hours of Peterson daily.
I enjoy your videos, you are in a similar situation as me.
I'll be completely honest here: I'm only able to understand about a quarter of what they're talking about, but I'm still absolutely fascinated.
If you watched it again, would you understand it more
Nobody is highest.. and if you think you are.. help the weakest
Hey Jordan, you rock my world. I use to be total globalist, leftist and atheist. I took your pill and now I'm nationalist, believer and rightist. I'm philosopher my self. Not so popular like you, but hope one day to become great. You are the Best Jordan. Big thanks to healing my soul.
"Stephen Hawkings, the disembodied intellect"
SAVAGE
Mert Su And truthful.
Savage Nation boys
After watching Bill Shatner interview Stephen Hawkings PhD, I had a scary thought; Could he be testing his final contribution to humanity, AI or AI controlled Cybernetics to achieve immortality. I remember calculus and was in total awe watching Stephen Hawkings doing advanced calculus in his head. He has been speaking thru his computer since 1985, who else could join humans with machines?
"Hawking", and it wasn't intended as an insult. It's just that he fits into that archetype almost perfectly.
Khatharr Malkavian Thanks, you beat me to that very comment ✌🏼
It's not very often we hear JP speechless but it happened several times in this conversation. Goodness gracious what a fantastic pair to listen to!
This is probably the most inspired bit of intellectual discovery I've seen in quite some time from JP... usually there's a far greater proportion of "explain what I already mostly understand", but this one feels much more novel and dynamic. They clearly hit a flow state with each other in this one, and it pulls all sorts of new and interesting formulations out of his mind... Pretty amazing.
I agree. It's like we're sitting in on an organic conversation rather than watching a pre-concieved interveiw.
My reading list grows every time I watch a new video. I keep having to google half of the people they are referencing. I am learning way more from JBP than I ever did in my college humanities classes. So THANK-YOU so much for enriching my world.
hahaha same here :D
I really enjoyed this the other day, and was searching to find it again; glad I found it. Thank you Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau for this excellent conversation.
I saw a documentary on a pack of wolves that were relocated. The lowest member of the pack was terrified to come out of the cage at the time of their release. The alpha male went into the cage and brought him out. It was so beautiful. The King protecting and assisting the lowest of his hiarchy.
I am overwhelmed to hear such high level discussion from two learned individuals. Dr. Peterson, thank you for introducing me to Mr. Pageau, first time I have seen someone keep up with you. Bless you both, and keep up the good work.
I've been hoping for another discussion with this fellow. The last was illuminating.
He has a RUclips channel that goes by his name
Their metaphysical analysis of P E P E was VERY illuminating (it actually was the first video where I really began to understand the concept of the logos and articulation of truth as an underlying structure of western civilisation)
Yup. There's a new video.
I'm really happy you're allowing us to accompany you on your journey Dr. Peterson. Thank you
I love the part around 42 mins in that Jonathan distinguished between pagan and christian heroism. That blew me away.
I'm glad you chose to call Mr. Pageau and didn't wake up wanting to "rake the yard". Great talk this morning buckos
KROW Creative
The day of the rake will come.
Theology of the Body addresses some of these issues. I'm a neophyte in philosophy, but John Paul ii was influenced by many of the philosophers whose names I keep hearing. Also, he lived in Poland under the Nazis and under communism and was pointedly aware of the dangers of totalitarianism in any guise
What a wondrous conversation..especially as a Christian..I so get this..
All of these sort of sharing of ideas..gives me such hope!
I just discovered Jonathan’s channel today, and he seems to be an incredibly insightful person. I hope he gains some sort of traction to start getting his thoughts out there as he’s really just getting people to begin to ask the right questions.
Yet there are still people who confuse individualism with selfishness.
Knowledge Headquarters agreed
Had that happen to me on facebook. Then I explained the meaning of concepts of individualism and collectivism and she went radio silent. It's very weird how people, when you prove they're holding a misconception in their mind, usually just block you out.
Hey, just a word of advice: When you're dealing with people who have abandoned the truth you should take the things that they say with a grain of salt. ESPECIALLY when they start moralizing.
People very rarely confuse individualism with selfishness. Rather, they try very hard to confuse others about it.
There is nothing wrong with selfishness if what you want is good.
I think its deeper than that, Selfishness is actually a good thing and the core tenant of individualism, but Selfishness can also contain an understanding about how other people and things affect you and for that to remain positive you have to be positive towards them in turn. What people are, generally, is Selfish AND stupid and don't realize that simple fact. There is a reason why people call it "the Golden Rule" after all.
501,000 subsribers, way to go Jordan. Keep up the amazing work.
Its been fun watching it climb
503 and counting
Yeah well, people don't just stick around purely for that sort of stuff. The political stuff (the same with the Bill C16 incident) attract people to him, they stay for all the other content.
I know all that and I agree, but the bulk of people don't support him just for the political stuff. Or at least don't stay with that as the main reason. That's what I'm trying to say. Look at his Biblical lectures for instance. They've been watched by hundreds of thousands of people. Non-political content.
And by the way, I'm following and supporting JBP for a year and half now, so I'm well aware of all the things you speak of. I participate in the fight in a very minor way, or at least I'm trying.
I woke up at five thirty because I am going to the gym every morning now. That's me cleaning my room.
Adrian Gray you're a beast. I'm trying to live up to your example.
No, That is slaying dragons or keeping them at bay .
Boom!
Get them gainz
Clean your metadata.
Slay the audio desync.
Rescue your viewers from the belly of social media.
Centre Demon social media is a victim of a social species desperate for positive and negative feedback. See you can blame the victim.
Who else is watching this while cleaning your room?! On a loudspeaker. Neighbours should learn a thing or two too.
AnastasiaOva Painting room.
Was watching pegging stuff on xhamster when I got notified.
I was listening while washing the dishes, but was wearing ear phones :)
!! hahahaha
I just got done cleaning my room while watching this and I came to the comments and read this. Synchronicity.
Best talk on understanding hierarchy from a Christian perspective I've seen so far. Christ said he was the gatekeeper where one sojourns in and out. Also, I believe at least half of Jesus' parables are on the theme of the 1st being last, and the last first. Thanks gentlemen.
This is the best talk JP has ever done , 1 in a billion
Being able to boil intersectionalism down to "6 categories to individualism" is incredibly brilliant. I know it's agitating to compulsively think about things like this instead of raking leaves, but at least it's not squandered. You're getting it out here and that's a blessing to us all. Thanks, JBP and Jonathan Pageau!
Amazing discussion. I just love how its becoming cool to talk about this stuff. It somehow gives me hope.
This is excellent. A very important conversation that affects a lot of women seeing as males who identify as women are starting to impose themselves on women's spaces with no pushback. Intersectionality is a serious issue and has to be discussed.
I'm happy to see that Peterson isn't succumbing to the bread and circuses of the RUclips personalities around him and $1000 suits.. This is what JPB does best and I hope his feet stay on the ground
The pyramid analogy reminded me of something I read about in a science fiction story. They're on Mars, and they find a row of tiny pyramids with no top stretching off in a straight line far into the distance. They started off six inches high, and as they followed the line, they started realizing that the pyramids were getting bigger.
They figure out what the bricks that form the pyramids are made out of, look at how weathered they were, and start guessing that the first of the tiny pyramids might be half a million years old.
Eventually, they were ten feet high, and then they ran into the last pyramid, and it was capped. Then the creature inside pushed the top off, climbed out, and started building the next pyramid.
The story was A Martian Odyssey, by Stanley Weinbaum, first published in 1934. I read it in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, volume one, which was originally published in the 1970s, and was republished in the 2000s.
I shouldn't say this but a JBP comment section is like my safe space. Everybody thinks like me, roughly speaking, we all are in the same level of the dominant hierarchy, we all feel bad about not sorten ourselves up and feel good when we do so... I guess I should escape from this and go out there and beat the dragon of the chaos and the unknown by embodying the archetycal hero.
That's no joke!
I think it's more important that we have the same goal instead of the same thought. Perhaps that's what you mean?
Yeah, it's all quite similar to a cult or echo chamber where people unthinkingly praise their messiah. It's embarrassing.
Git Gud i dont understand embaressment here. We are mostly all on the same page. No different than groups coming together to read Nietzsche or listen to Mozart and discuss the works. He is very intelligent highly reasonable but also gives room for the metaphysical. He is also an extremely well read intellectual beast. Many of us are still blown over by his work. How should we criticize him or pick him apart so soon? Who now can rail against the ideas of Carl Jung? Stop nauseating yourself
Git Gud
When the late judge Scalia was explaining why he rejected the notion of the Constitution as "A Living Document", (and by extension, believed that the Founders' opinions are still relevant); a big part of his reasoning for this comes from the fact that, "Every so often in human history, GENIUS rises forth under the right conditions to move the foundations of civilization, Whether it was Greek philosophy, Italian Renaissance art", or the Founders of the USA. What many of us Are sensing from Peterson is the foundation of a revolution in political psychology, now accessible to the common man's elucidation.
Great discussion. In our cathedral in Seattle, around the top of the dome, and under a portrait of Jesus, is a quote from Luke's Gospel. Jesus is speaking. He says, "I am among you as one who serves." You two gentlemen are good examples of this concept. Keep up the good work, and do n't let anything derail you.
I really enjoy these informal discussions with a guest. They are relaxed and forgiving, allowing for some wonderful association play.
Peterson is on FIRE
I kind of love that these guys have basically given up on the publication aspect of being a scholar. This is a much more efficient way to share ideas with people with no middle man translating.
Uploaded RIGHT when I finished watching the other talk
Maybe that means you were in the right place at the right time.
More like G-Man lol.
Thanks for everything, Dr Peterson. You are truly a hero to people like me.
Dr. Peterson, thank you for wearing headphones. The sound quality is far superior as a result!
Jonathan is really a great friend with his heart on the right place, I subbed him.
How about an interview about western history with Chicago Professor Rachel Brown?? That would be an amazing talk!
I recently acquired a Peterson’s meerschaum pipe. It might be my favorite.
Still listening to this interview, and hope they talk about Derrida’s critique of the University. 🤞
As soon as I think you have covered everything on this topic I learn that you were only scratching the surface. Amazing conversation!
video and audio are so asynchronous, it seems almost like if Jonathan had Jordan's voice.
Intersectionalists aren't concerned with marginalized individuals any more than Marxists are with exploited workers. It's a pretense employed by the self-righteous and self-appointed in order to justify remaking society in their image.
At any rate, thanks for making these conversations public. They're challenging, but helpful.
"I'm completely out of brain".
How many times I have felt like that - but lacked the brain to render that perfect phrase-description.
JP comes with new amazing insights every single time. This is brilliant.
Give this man a talk show already.
I haven't yet listened to this talk, but I wanted to comment as soon as I heard the word cross.
I had a dream recently where I was offered a brilliant golden cross on a golden chain. Handed to me by a hand from "up above" is the best way to describe it. I reached out to hold the chain, yet as I grabbed for it the chain unfurled in my hand and the cross fell to the floor. I can still see the memory of the dream in my mind, as crisp as reality. Which is unusual for me. Dreams are mostly hazey half memory's.
This is Jesus as the entire spectrum of the hierarchy. The last as first as last
"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." -Matthew 16:24
Kade Silbaugh
It still lyes next to my bed in my mind. In my vision as I retrieve the cross from the ground, it is no longer gold, but turns to wood, and sprouts roots that sink all the way down. To grasp the cross in my mind pulls me down and begins to suffocate me. I pull away every time.
Christ transcends the hierarchy. What a marvelous way to present him!
The video description class Johnathan as "bearded", but I would argue that he is actually beard-fluid.
On the variability in oppression: I believe we have reached a tragic problem of value, where equality has been transformed into a monster demanding equal oppression! And no wonder! Postmodernists have reached the conclusion that the pursuit of opportunity and rights was not truthful enough, and so they are now proposing equality as an historical entity. And historical equality can only exist when all players have been through the same! Because how can their ‘oppressor’ understand oppression if he himself has not been oppressed? And on the contrary, how can the oppressed have faith in the oppressor’s redemption if they themselves have not oppressed?
Pedro Alexandre See Kurt Vonnegut's short story, "Harrison Bergeron".
Hope these two get together again soon.
This audio is great! If more of your internet discussions were like this, it'd be fantastic. Thanks again for all your work.
As someone who is about average in the uniqueness department, I enjoyed this one-of-a-kind conversation between these two one-of-a-kind people!
I think I need to hear some more from this Jonathan Pageau fellow.
Wow. Every second worth the rewatch. This one aged pretty well.
I was not aware of Jonathan before this..so glad I am now🌺
Tony,I subscribed to his channel,thank you❣
When he talks about Ford creating the car, but not knowing what it was, it made me think of the song that never ends.
I wish I understood an eighth of what they’re saying. Nonetheless, I’ve been watching Jordan Peterson “like mad” for over a year now and I’m starting to catch on. His talks inspire my artwork as well. He paints mental pictures in my head in strange ways and the ideas just evolve from there.
Fantastic, I hope conversations between you two become a regular thing. Thank you for sharing.
Very helpful. Please make a series!
_I am completely out of brain_ is a phrase that deserves to be used more often.
Wow ... Thank you both for sharing.
Professor Peterson, we all love you and love to hear you talk, but please do not interrupt your guests when you have them, or when they have not made all their point across. Please!
When are you posting your conversation with Jonathan Haidt? Impatient beyond comprehension
Love the username.
It's really interesting, Jordan and Jonathan have a really similar way of thinking
At 11:57 Jordan asks “What principle guides your characterisation of the world?” There is the most profound answer to that question in William Hazlitt’s book Principles of Human Action. It’s answered in his last chapter: On Abstraction. Also for those who love poetry Wallace Stevens deals with the issue of categories and those problematics forever outside of them, in his less known but utterly profound poetic meditation: Looking Across the Fields and Watching the Birds Fly.
Phenomenal stuff. I'm really glad that I don't understand these conversations fully. The interviews with black margins have become infamous to me for being extra complex.
Jordon Peterson...thank you for helping me reconcile my science brain with my christian faith system.
I have never understood how anyone cannot see all people as both individual and group. It's just an absolute fact of reality, a fact that takes very little thought to discover and understand, that we are all parts of various groups and individuals simultaneous. This is part of why I find the notion of hardcore individualistic thinking and hardcore collectivist thinking, with no room for overlap, consideration, and/or understanding of the other perspective, to at least some degree, both to be unreasonable. I manage quite fine thinking through an individualist lens and group/collective lens, depending on the factors and variables of any given situation. ✌🏼
Collectivists & individualists agree we inhabit structures we're meaningfully attached to. Disagreement is on where self ownership/responsibility is placed.
You can't submit yours over to the collective nor can you assume responsibility for another person's.
The collective abstract is otherwise a great tool.
love this talk!
Only halfway in and I know this video has changed my life forever.
David Spade knows his shit.
41:15 this idea of the highest serving the lowest is also embodied in the new testament when Christ washes the dirty feet of his disciples.
Thanks to both of you.
The man who sleeps around becomes nihilistic makes me think of a movie I watched recently with my teenage son. The movie is Rush directed by Ron Howard, and it tells the story of Niki Lauda and James Hunt race car drivers. James Hunt died in his mid-forties. Niki is really an exemplar for men. Also watch the sincerity of Niki when one of his airline 767s crashed. Really worth watching as a lesson for men in my opinion.✨😺💫
At min 52 Peterson talks about how gay marriage proponents still have the responsibility to maintain the structure that has now included them. Very interesting.
Hoping to start reading the Gulag Archipelago soon. Thanks for all you've done Jordan!
Wow! If Jordan Petersen comes to you for advice, then you know! You really fucking know that this guy must be taken seriously! This video just blew my wole head clean off. Standing up straith with my shoulders back. 😂 Thank god for JP!
Jordan says "you can't capture the thing permanently in the category system because it shifts and turns". So the purpose of everything is always switching positions once it becomes observed. The meaning of the universe/life is like an electron, observing it changes its position. *xfiles music*
Two one-in-a-billion guys sharing ideas, amazing.
I so appreciate your talks w Jonathan; and PLZ Ponder what he says re "the Christian hero is Unique in that their focus is upon THE WEAK'! [begins around 42min in, i think?]
Truly Jordon: that Christian focus upon MERCY is indeed Unique: as in it is the Only religion [or system of any thought, tmk?] to command "LOVE THINE ENEMY".
I so hope and pray that Both of you read Kierkegaard's "WORKS OF LOVE': and especially his Clarity re Mercy: his Liberating Insistence that Even those of us who have NOTHING are indeed Able to be Merciful.. and in fact calls us to fathom being Merciful Towards those who are sorta Trapped in This World's MERCILESSNESS: ie the Rich who seem Temporally/'This Worldly' Above us.
[I myself have played the following link for a bone-cancer, pain-ridden patient full of understandable Rage: and it Completely turned his life Around
{that 'Metanoia' = 'Repentance' &/or "choosing the different path' Gift.}]
I often Yearn that those of us who get so Stuck in what Ivan Illich's warns us of, that "Scarcity" perspective, might somehow hear these 2 links re Kierkegaard's "Works of Love"! Hope you two do as well.
[I'll put the youtube links in 1st reply below: and include some writings which clarify these 'Jewels': Agape & Mercy.]
See: I believe that Mercy is often somewhat 'lost in translation', just as Agape is, upon being translated from Greek into the Roman Vulgate's "Caritas" [English 'Charity'].
'Caritas' is Laden w "Good Works" connotations - w its "Let's Make a Deal" temptations in Roman Catholicism.. and easily Loses the KENOSIS -or
"Totally Emptying Forth" TRUTH of the Greek AGAPE..
*Agape* & *Mercy* are indeed the JEWELS OF THE CROWN", imho:
even beyond Forgiveness, & that "12th -or Pinnacle- Commandment" [that's what I call it anyway} of "Love thine Enemy".
Mercy takes us beyond that same ol' '"stuck in yet another 'This Worldly' Exchange' Trap" that I sense you Jordon have alluded to as a reason you did Not choose politics.. but rather psychology, w its greater Hope of Liberating the Individual unto being able and willing to be Able to Respond/the Responsibility of LOGOS.
Good on ya for making this otherwise confusing wisdom public. Thank you
"I'm completely out of brain" .... yep, know that feeling.
Intersectionality is an interesting concept when it's approached scientifically. Attempting to empirically quantify the advantages and disadvantages of different demographics.
But when wielded by the postmodernists, it just creates unresolvable division and conflict.
The only truly interesting thing about it is how contagious it seems to be along with its resistance to treatment.
The conversation at about 48:00 brought to mind the verse “Christ is all, and in all.” Colossians 3:11 He is outside the hierarchy because as a member of the Trinity He is infinite.
I'm the other Greek Orthodox that understands these things in the world Dr Peterson!
I'm going to disagree with Jonathan Pageau on his view of Achilles which is utterly appalling and intellectually dishonest. Achilles' refusal to fight isn't only because he's mad about a "sex slave", first of Achilles loves Briseis (and there is a notion that she loved him as well) which may not come across in an English translation but is clear in the Greek text. Next it's the fact that Agamemnon is being a crony worthless overlord who by pulling rank overstepping the Rules established to maintain order. This is no small issue. Achilles is the personification of the individual who in his attempt to keep peaceful order is being made an example of by a tyrannical leader. Achilles' refusal is every bit fair, logical and legitimate (he's even the wisest of the two thanks to Athena) if you expect any sort of system of advancement to be fair, yet the rules he argues for are being ignored by Agamemnon. And this is the tragedy also of the Iliad, that this is the initiator for all the heroes who died as a result of Achilles' rage which was legitimate, in other words it wasn't his fault.
But, given the difference between a Christian hero and pagan (tho this isn't a good word in this case) hero, I'd argue that this is also not the case here. Yes Achilles and is fellow warriors fight for personal glory as well, but the glory of the tribe, the leader (Agamemnon), the forefathers, the gods always comes first. They all sacrifice their lives for those less able and Achilles also knows that despite his skill and invulnerability he will die in Troy, throwing away a rich and long life back home for someone else's cause.
Jonathan Pageau's distortion of Achilles as a hero archetype is insanely dishonest to the depth and importance of that archetype of the christian hero in the first place. Achilles is, along with many of the protagonists of the Iliad, a proto-knight, fighting for virtues and ideals, for a common cause, for a leader, for country and for his religion, his recognition being his name being remembered in the same sense a knight's pr saint's would. All that is different is the level of fragmentation of goals, peoples and deities between the two worlds, that of the Mediterranean of the "pagan" Bronze Age and of the Christian Iron Age. Very wrong in this respect sir.
Circa 7:10 they talk about the corruption intrinsic to the pursuit of novelty. C S Lewis in the The Screwtape Letters said something similar in that human beings have built into them a delight in novelty but also a delight in familiarity so that left to ourselves will delight in "snowdrops this spring or turkey this thanksgiving". Even though the experience is the same it carries novelty in its freshness. But our culture has made the familiar commonplace by making turkey available year-round and encourages dissatisfaction with the familiar with advertising and fashion.
Note also what you guys said half-way through means that separation of church and state was a mistake.
Or at least an iron wall between the two was since you can't let in people who don't fit within the established norms, and those were and necessarily had to be Christian in Christendom (the real name for "western civilization"). Once that fell, of course things started to fall apart.
many thanks to both of you can anyone imagine something like that on TV ?
Y'know,
I think this is the most important video on RUclips.
The people want more Jonathan!
Uncut and raw 👍
Coming off of their discussion of the chaos framing the logos. The question determining the answer is present in quantum theory.
Basically the question asked, the experiment run, or measurement taken will determine the outcome of that measurement. If you observe photons as a wave you've measured them using a diffraction experiment, not something using the photo electric effect.
I hope I got that right.
Much gratitude!
This is a great conversation. Identity politics, when taken to its limits, returns to the individual.