The Search for Political Nuance - with Gregg Hurwitz
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- I sat down again with the American novelist and screenwriter, Gregg Hurwitz. Gregg was part of the Daily Wire+ Exodus series discussion panel with Jordan Peterson, so I thought it was a good time for us to talk about what we took away from those discussions, Exodus, Christianity, CS Lewis, the importance of ritual, temperance, and a nuanced approach to social matters.
Previous discussions:
- New Think - with Gregg Hurwitz: • New Think - with Gregg...
- Patterns in Politics and Storytelling | with Gregg Hurwitz: • Patterns in Politics a...
Exodus series with Daily Wire+ and Jordan Peterson: • Biblical Series: Exodus
Gregg’s website: gregghurwitz.net/
Timestamps:
00:00 // Preview
00:41 // Intro music
01:06 // Introduction
01:56 // Gregg's experience with the Exodus series
04:57 // Let the fringe be the fringe
13:06 // Layers of participation
15:04 // The essence of the laws
16:28 // Values and a foundation
20:20 // Humility
22:06 // A structure in which to navigate
25:39 // The necessity of ritual
31:04 // CS Lewis and The Great Divorce
35:28 // Freedom
38:25 // Hell
43:39 // Hypocrisy and accusation
48:09 // The Nine Worthies
54:34 // The messiness of life
1:03:22 // Guilt by association
1:08:54 // Pluralistic ignorance
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
I just realized something regarding the Peterson-Pageau-Orthodox Church/God pipeline. Peterson, being eloquent and all, is Jonathan's Aaron. He is also a double - edged sword, just like Aaron, and can as easily create a golden calf, or sell the gullible psychodelics.
🤯
Interesting connection! I've always thought of them as akin to the pattern of John the Baptist and Jesus. (JBP as the forerunner) Must be funny for them to read these kinds of comments about themselves but that's what happens when you're doing really important work!
Well, we are talking about patterns here, not the quality of the people. I don't want to equate Jonathan to Moses, obviously.
Thank you for constituting this structure I think many intuited into my prefrontal cortex. This was the head splitting moment that completely flipped me from Peterson to Pageau years ago (subtler wisdom but actually higher). I love Jordan for everything he's done but mostly for standing just outside the narthex pointing to something higher.
@@kelseyziem4341 to be honest, despite being grateful to Peterson for all the insights, I now am convinced he might do more harm than good. He does appear more and more like a grifter.
I don’t think Jonathan meant yoga poses when he said we should worship the highest thing 🤣
Love the commitment to beauty and truth you both hold. And that you are able to come together for a conversation from different worlds in an intelligent and dignified manner. Thank you both and God be with you. Praying for you Gregg, that you will come to Christ!
What a refreshing take on group affiliation, tyranny and the art of dialogue😁
This man Gregg Hurwitz seems to grasp the significance of Saint Paul's disposition of spirit when he claimed "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." in 1 Corinthians 9:22😌
Thank you for expounding your thoughts so clearly and charitably!
Beautiful. Thank you for this comment. This is particularly what I see Peterson doing that people don't get. And I am not a huge Peterson fan. But I do respect what he is doing... anyway... thanks again
The Bible and christian culture at its best, holds together the local and the foreigner, there is a place for the fringe, just not on the alter, as it has often been said,
what a top down gov is unable to do is precisely this, it is unable to organically and dynamically adjust to a new landscape, whilst maintaining a universal ethic and consent of the governed.
Wow, I had to look up that C.S. Lewis quote, and Hurwitz is correct, it’s from The Screwtape Letters (thus, God is “the enemy” from the devil’s perspective).
“The Enemy wants to bring the man to a state of mind in which he could design the best cathedral in the world, and know it to be the best, and rejoice in the fact, without being any more (or less) or otherwise glad at having done it than he would be if it had been done by another. The Enemy wants him, in the end, to be so free from any bias in his own favour that he can rejoice in his own talents as frankly and gratefully as in his neighbour's talents--or in a sunrise, an elephant, or a waterfall.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
"the gates of hell are locked from the inside"
c.s.lewis, like orwell becoming more right than wrong over time.
Fr. Seraphim Rose once wrote that we don't live in a Christian society, we live in a society. That was like in the 70's. It's just a battle royale now. PVP is enabled. Time for nuance is over.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Time for nuance is over"?
@@candaniel CS Lewis made the point that good and evil are always becoming more and more themselves, always coming more and more to a point. Good becomes better and evil becomes worse. We're at a point now where mutilation is called healthcare and critical words are called violence.
10 years ago it was a bit fuzzier which side was which, but the more time passes, the more the sides reveal themselves.
@@OrchinXAhh, I see. I value nuanced thinking a lot and so was a bit confused by that original statement, but your comment clears it up for me. I still hold onto the belief that nuance remains important, but I see what you're saying: simple statements like 'child mutilation is *wrong',* have to be asserted clearly in a time that embraces moral relativism. Thanks!
More like good people are making concessions to evil. As the saying goes, evil exists because good people do nothing.
If you ignore the “evil problem” long enough it builds up and assimilates itself into the “good” perhaps, but that’s just my half cent take on “issues” at the current moment…
Both of these men understand "story" and "narrative". I don't understand the hate...Pageau is to be commended for having these respectful dialogues. Hurwitz' series "Orphan X" is pretty great. Not deep literature, but excels at what it is: well-built "spy thrillers", great characters you care about and fast moving plot.
I had a sense you two had unfinished business from Exodus. They might have edited but those tense kindling moments between yourselves, Oz and Dennis were undeniable. What a time to be alive. Please God nudge Dennis to also expound more with Jonathan soon.
41:15 this part reminds me of the song “Randy Described Eternity” by Built to Spill. Here are the lyrics:
“Every thousand years
This metal sphere
Ten times the size of Jupiter
Floats just a few yards past the Earth
If you climb on your roof
And take a swipe at it
With a single feather
Hit it once every thousand years
'Til you've worn it down
To the size of a pea
Yeah, I'd say that's a long time
But it's only half a blink in the place we're going to be
Where you going to be?
Where will you spend eternity?
I'm gonna to be perfect from now on
I've gotta to be perfect starting now
Stop making that sound, stop making that sound
I will say I forgot it
But it was only yesterday
And that's all you had to say”
Really good song but I can see how it seems to be inspired by ideas like that
Glad to hear Greg is having his worldview changed at least a little bit. Lord have mercy.
27:20 Any Christians who want to do "hot yoga" can pray the Jesus Prayer in a sauna. I do this a few times a week after lifting, which can also be a great ascetic practice if approached properly.
you sure the sauna is ascetic? Its rather stimulating and pleasureful
Sitting in a 192°F wooden box in silence and trying to concentrate on prayer is not my idea of pleasurable. It has helped me to focus on prayer when outside of the extreme heat, so it works.
There can be no nuance with evil
i totally agree Gregg, when you are in good company, with good texts and philosophy, inclusion is organic.
Gregg just shared the gospel from our Catholic brothers and scientific neighbors, it is another but Christ-centered perspective. Well done.
Thanks
To Gregg’s points regarding his shortcomings during the exodus vids. I’ll say, I was blessed by his comments throughout the series. Definitely needed his perspective in the series!
Gregg seems like someone I would wildly disagree with, but would love talking to.
i kinda miss talking to such a liberal
Thanks for your demonstration of cooperation, 2 world views reflecting each other is enlightened entertainment. Bravo, I am going to read CS Lewis' Divorced. And maybe reread his Screw tape letters. 📘🙏❤️🔥
With the ARC thing, I think Jonathan understands the risk (if that is a good word to describe it)
It is the same when he talks about having a big internet presence in general, when talking about this group and discussion that has formed. But this group and the discussion would continue without Jonathan, and having a Christian in there has really helped things. With Jordan I can see ways in which he really needs someone like Jonathan to balance what he is saying. I think Father Seraphim Rose talked about something like the temptation on the right, which seems to be what some are worried about. I have assumed Jonathan has understood there could be some trickiness for a long time and has made decisions with this in mind.
It is obvious to me that ARC is much different than the WEF, kind of weird to compare them, I mean they have 3 letters I guess. People are too suspicious right now but it could be for good reason, things are very crazy
When you said Gregg wrote for Batman I really thought for a second it was that newer movie where Batman squares off against an autistic 4chan user.
I am really laughing at the assumption that San Francisco Jew equals moderate, while MAGA is made out to be extremist. I've never called for people to be censored, but I've been censored all my life, from the banning of singing Christmas carols because it offends Jews to being threatened with getting fired from work because I voted for Trump.
What do you mean by being censored all your life and who is banning Christmas carols?
Yay 2 of the great minds featured in the exodus series coming together to talk on this topic, love it!
On occasion it's nice to listen to Aaron and Miriam talk without Moses...
Truly fantastic podcast - one of the best I've ever heard!
have to be careful the approach doesn't turn into a sneaky ecumenism. Its good to be committed to find truth together and coexistence should only be the goal in that sense. Not coexistence in the sense of you believe what you do ill do what i do and forget the rest. It needs to be a negotiation... Just my two cents
44:49
If that argument ever comes up when I'm talking to people, I just explain that, if I were perfect and without sin (maybe we can argue about original sin), then I wouldn't need Christ. It is precisely BECAUSE I am a sinner that I DO need Christ. That's the whole religion. That's what it's about. That's the central pillar around which everything else revolves.
Jonathan, do a video on the symbolism of the Voynich manuscript.
I remember the talk with Jordan about his behavior and I’m glad you realized you were uhm, maybe to add my own words, horribly self righteous and assholish!
What are you refering to?
@@orthobro4806 It’s a video called Was I Wrong about Peterson lambasting a trans for pushing evil trans gnosticism out of Tavistock and how we should pussyfoot around that endlessly to teach people online how to talk nice like toddlers.
To be fair, we as American society have listened to the "be moderate, repair the world, embrace the stranger" worldview for decades. Maybe it's time to reconsider this type of advice and question it's motovations.
What advice or course of action do you propose instead?
@@daves-c8919heritage Americans should consider acting with self/group interest.
@@bottomtext7700
And the furthest group category you are willing to consider is “American”?
Like the categories “human” or even “earthling”, you don’t bother with those?
@@daves-c8919 oh I see. your original question was a set up to counter signal and project your virtue. Pretty lame. Have a nice day. No need to @ me anymore. Thx.
@@bottomtext7700
I didn’t mean to corner you or make you feel attacked. I apologize.
I just disagree with you. Taking on the sins of the world isn’t the same as what you’re describing.
The world is so interconnected now that I’m not sure how any country can only think of their interest.
33:33 legit regarding old vs new testament.
I'm so tired of being called Judeo-Christian.
51:00. “Dear friend” must be talking about Jordan.
At 22 min Gregg start to talk about how a society has a common event that everyone is apart of. The last event for America world war2/the great depression. The intesting thing is that if you look through history you can see another pattern emerge. That is every 75 to 100 years a major event happens that shapes a generation. I believe it is 75 to 100 years because that is about the length of a human life. Now to World War 2- 83 years. World War 2 to the American Civil War- 80 years. Civil War to the American Revoltion 84 years. I read this from a great book called The Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe. I would high recommend you look into it because it appears we are on the way to our fourth turning.
It was 9/11.
The last one was 9/11. It changed everything.
Please talk to James Lindsay again, Jonathan.
Youre pretty much on your own entirely if you take the genuine time to learn, its really not fun. If i werent so convicted or compelled Id never ever do this.
I can only imagine what people like James lindsay went through. Having enemies who hate you is easy. The internet? Easy. Your friends and family who've known you forever? Yeah now that sucks
Picasso is absolutely over-hyped.
Is that George McDonald?
15:36 This.
I mean: even from a standpoint of practicality: you can’t have a lawyer or a policeman beside every citizen in a country. Even when you look at the numbers: there is not a cell for every criminal in the country, nor a court of law for every misdeed, nor a detective for every single un prosecuted man on the run.
It is normal for a city like New York to have more open parking tickets than citizens at all times.
Accountability has to come from within, there’s no way to enforce it from without at any reasonable granularity.
And the other side of the medal is redeeming grace, so that life can go on: there has to be a way and process of redemption, else the whole world stands doomed for all eternity.
And it doesn’t stop at the granularity of the community level. Sinners are usually on the run from themselves, their own consciousness: the fact that God follows you to the end of the Earth and the depth of the sea is the logical conclusion of him being a personification of the law within you.
The concept of the law and of sin and forgiveness has to be an internal thing on a personal level in the first place to start with: everybody has to stand judgement before his inner court, the peers of his own inner aspects and circuits of his own personality, before it even comes to standing before the peers of his outer community.
How could it be any other way? - The idea of prosecuting thought crimes in public is ridiculous: the only place to judge thought crimes remains your own consciousness, the only person who even can do it is yourself.
Every norm starts with self-policing in your own mind and spirit. - That’s why the “sins against the spirit” are unforgivable in the first place. The sacredness and inviolability of the ideal has to be upheld internally at all times, or everything goes to pot.
Forgiveness has to be begged from God, even your own inner forgiveness of forgiving yourself is received as a gift: it can’t be just a rewriting of your own inner rules, that now everything is allowed whenever it suits you. It has to have an explanatory power post hoc. Else it is “Dark Magic” in the sense of Joscha Bach: it’s dangerous to get to the room with the cookies in your own brain, before you are grown up and know that they are just a way to motivate you to eat your vegetables first.
The ability to self-author, to rewrite your own code has to come late enough in life, so that the likelihood for enough wisdom having accumulated before is high enough, so that the cases where people accidentally overwrite their Master Boot Record remain scarce. Else people would need an external boot medium at hand for partitioning and reformatting at all times. - Jailbreaking your inner OS comes with the risk of bricking your brain / the hardware your personality runs on, if you don’t know what you are doing.
Whoa. Fascinating comment. Really liked the comparison of your moral and philosophical code to the binary and machine code of machines, esp to not overwrite your master boot record! Thank you!
199K subs. Soon to be 200K. What a journey we are on!
I'm not great at nuance am I getting this right? "If you don't sleep with the enemy youre not a real Christian"
Funny how two individuals studying Exodus are blind to the immigration crisis.
But this idea is obviously very much not Christian. "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked"
Who is your enemy?
@@daves-c8919 The Amalekites
@@sennewam
And who is that nowadays?
Thank you. I have been watching the EXODUS series. It has been very interesting.
Your guest was really great as a person on that series!
One thing I noticed is that you guys are all guys on that. And you’re coming from a very manly guy oriented perspective.
I have to say that I disagree with Dennis so much because of course I’m Christian.
But I feel amazed at the fact that he is so totally non-spiritual.
It’s amazing to me. And he is solidly firm and not wanting to change one iota.
Closed minded.
I can picture the Pharisees in Jesus day being that way.
He may not be a holy man, but he is a Pharisee in his own right.
right. I’m so glad I’m Christian.
Because Jesus was bringing the spiritual aspect of the law into being.
And sometimes that group doesn’t talk about it too much maybe because everybody’s afraid to hurt somebody’s feelings?
Or maybe it may cause cause a disagreement?
That whole discussion the last I heard on the pornography subject in the Exodus discussion…was ludicrous in my opinion.
It was a bunch of guys, not realizing they could withhold and take control of their sexual desire! Self Mastery!
I thought it was very interesting.
Anyway, it’s a good series and I block out a lot of the weirdness!!!
I also learned a lot of the good stuff you’re talking about.
Thank you.
If yoga is "transcendant" then it is only in a demonic context. God said there is one Way to Him and yoga was not it.
I enjoy most of Gregg's Orphan X series but this video made me enjoy them less.
1 prince, amazing,
1000000 prince, deeply disturbing
The chatter of Demons ..😮
And idea on proper humility.
Always compare yourself to God's standard. In doing this you will fall short and feel unworthy of praise.
Simultaneously, you will hold yourself to a higher standard than that of your peers. Not placing false confidence in other people, as God tells us they will all sin and fall short of His glory, Due to our mortal nature.
This allows you to strive for excellence without developing the folly of pride.
Observe ...with the Eye of the Father
Judge ... with the Heart of the Son
Act ... in the Love of the Holy Spirit
Nuance in politics ????? no its not there now or ever , politics is polarised deliberately so for specific reasons of division.
you are offered the world, you do not even see it,
I thought it was odd that the “answer” seemed to be like a libertarian “judeo-Christian”🤢 view of the world with great praise for the humanist enlightenment. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
How many Israelis is the good doctor going to surround himself with before you all become curious about it?
Which one of these two is the Israeli?
Read some Rene Girard. You're falling like lightning.
boo
Are you joking? Hurwitz?@@daves-c8919
If you paid attention to the video you'd see this Mossad clown just demonstrated how narcissistic he is by talking about his own childhood for an hour. These people are not Christians. They are not like us. @@Jordan18561
This is very Boring, Just know compromise with outgroup is sin
Too simplistic of a view. It's only true if the out-group is sinning. And we should try to evangelize if we can.
In what way did Pageau compromise The Faith?
The only thing I could think of is Gregg’s synchronicity comment, but Pageau didn’t agree with it, he was just letting Gregg talk.
P.S. I believe ecumenism is a great evil and a terrible heresy. But if you’re accusing someone of it, can you point to the specifics of why you’re making that accusation?
This was a big pile of nothing, sorry
Trump is actually good , just look at what he did