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PvP Combat Analysis - Prismatic vs Biweave FDLs
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- Опубликовано: 28 дек 2019
- Many thanks to CMDR Neotantrix of CODE for our many fights and for allowing me to share this analysis with you. Neo was running a much harder to use build than mine which certainly tipped the fight in my favor.
My Build: s.orbis.zone/5gum
Neotantrix Build: s.orbis.zone/5g--
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Artist: Miguel Johnson
Track: The Web
Album: Citizen of the Stars
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Neo is actually using the short range rail build in this fight with a huge gimballed multicannon (the multi is used to keep constant damage on a target and whatever effect you have on it applied). Just wanted to point it out as you said he was using plasma’s and rails and people would probably wonder why he is firing his rails so often then lol.
Yeah, my mistake, I was looking through several fights when I narrated this and just got screwed up. His build is in the description, thanks for correcting my mistake!
I remember pre-engineering. When the debate was Cobra vs. Viper.
Simpler times... better times.
Those were the days. When skills determent the battle. Not how much you can grind for engineering materials.
Ohhhhhhhhhh......NOW it all makes sense then...I'm new, and I'm like..WTAF!!??? But its cool, I can grind toolol!!!
The grind isnt bad. Thargoids is fun too@@jetpaq
Great to see you back doing content, you've been missed.
Thanks amigo, I have a lot more planned, just needed a break...
Anyone look back to ED before shield tanking and definitely before Engineering and sigh at how much more balanced PvP and PvE was back then...?
FUCK YES I DO. I've said for a long time I wish there was a special star system where all engineering (save for maybe FSD) is nullified - so you could go there and have a fight knowing that engineering wouldn't factor in. So I'd say find some friends, you're welcome to join Level 11 and ask, and put together some un-engineered fights.
I just miss the bi-weave meta lol
@@Exigeous It would be better if CQC had a main ship duelling feature - that way the conditions of the fight could be set beforehand (no engineering, synth, etc), instancing would not be an issue because matchmaking would be more stable, and rebuy costs would not be an issue... Its a shame Fdev do not seem interested in building features for the PvP community. Oh well...
@@Exigeous CQC needs a "large ships" update.
Partially engineered ships so that battles don't take 40 minutes.
Although I can see that killing open play pvp to an extent.
Thanks for sharing this. It's great to see content creators putting well researched videos out about combat, especially PvP.
I would suggest regarding your build - I don't think you're getting much out of the lightweight chaff. Ammo cap is generally more useful, that extra ton either side isn't going to make a big different to your speed but can help a lot of you come across someone running a build like yours and it'll have much better integrity.
I would also go lightweight/deep on that reactive armour's engineering because that will make a big difference to your speed. Your healthpool is primarily held in the shields so that extra speed can help with evasion.
Overcharged on the utility multicannons would help keep DPS up too - heat management should be fine if you keep on top of pip management and go evasive/joust past to get cap up when you need to.
It's tricky to show what's going on in a PvP fight if you're recording in VR. It's also hard to tell where someone's focus is as I don't think the fov translates directly with what someone is looking at. I would suggest though, you'd benefit from looking a lot more at your distributors, radar and target status effects and being less focused on physically looking at Neo. The HUD information is much more crucial and you can use the 3D radar to get a really good idea of your position to a target when it's not directly in front of you.
I also don't think it's accurate that HOTAS requires FAOn to aim rails - it's just a question of practice. Generally something like that is easier for someone perma-FAOff and has put a lot of practice into steadying rotations with their chosen control input. Things like manual scooping can be great for this.
Again though - thanks for the great content.
You're definitely not "wrong" about any opinions here -- as for chaff I went lightweight mainly due to the faster rate at which you can fire them off and I almost never need all 10 anyway - but not a bad point at all. I also prefer having the extra all from Reactive as I switch the build a bit - and when my shields do drop it lets me go super aggressive as I can go 0/4/2 on my distro - and I want the extra hull when that happens.
As for HOTAS and FA-Off I didn't mean to imply it was a must - but for many of us it is, certainly for me as my aim SUCKS with rails when I'm FA-off. Thanks for sharing so much detail, I enjoy these kinds of comments quite a bit!
"Common etiquette to do a pass"
So you mean fire RC Torps, ram, and deploy frag cannons, right?
Great to see my favorite ED creator back at it. Love all your videos and guides o7
And after been on a hiatus of ED this gives me enough reasons to play back the game, thanks buddy!
Glad to hear that my friend, get your ass back in here!
Great fight! o7 to you both!
I never knew about double banking. Great tip. I hope I can add that to my bag of tricks when fighting Thargoid Interceptors.
Whilst shield can be useful in reducing some damage, thargoids can deal damage, through player shields.
@EDTutorials by Exigeous so... ive been doing alot of research on this topic of prismatic vs bi-weave. it seems the community is very split down the middle with this. some swear by bi-weave, others prismatic. I plan to design my FDL around both pve and pvp if i get tangled into it. my combat style is usually more about speed and evasion instead of a raw trade of blows and tanking (or at least i try to avoid it if possible). and as for tanking, in any game ive always prefered high durability/absorption/resistance to damage over just raw health. I also like adaptability and versatility.
So with that all said, can any good experienced players give me their thoughts and opinions on which probly would be better suited for me? i dont care about the skill required i will develop that.
Nice vid. Will be sharing amongst my guys on xbox wanting to learn the dark art of pvp
Every single video I've watched from this guy is gold.
Ooh, what guy? I'm always looking for good shit so please share!!! :D
No offense to, CMDR Exigeous, but this goes to show that PvP isn’t as scary as most CMDRs may think & believe it or not a lot of the PvP Community is more than willing to duel you without giving you a rebuy. A lot of us PvP’ers want to get more players into PvP to keep the game alive. This is a very common, yet effective build to use for PvP. Although, Double Chaff is Hell when it comes to using this build. Main thing you can do is shoot, let the chaff, fly evasive, once chaff ends, engage. Also, you can replace the 2 front Multicannons with Railguns and use those one your opponent has chaff’d and both practice your Free Aim skill and continue to do damage. Thanks for the build, CMDR.
No offense taken (was there something offensive in there??) as you couldn't be more correct about the attitude of the vast majority of the community. Sadly a few bad apples leave the impression that PvP is only about ganking/griefing, when in fact that's an entirely different - and very very small - group. Unfortunately those assholes are the ones that most will interact with since they'll just attack anyone they can anytime they can - which isn't PvP at all. As for the build great comments all around -- especially about double chaff, that said all builds have a hard-counter and you don't run into double chaff much as you don't run into full gimballed builds that much (save for wing fights).
Do you think it's possible to do a counter build to massive prismatic shields with thermal cascade? Getting a highly specific build for prismatics is cumbersome as its expect and very easy to avoid and generally can only be used once in the case of torpedoes, so I thought why break the shields when I can cook him from the inside?
Well depending on their build if they've gone really strong shields they will usually have weaker/weak hull - so phasing sequence, which does hull damage through shields, can be really effective. If you do run it you'll want to run it on all your weapons, save maybe a single cascade railgun as you want to do maximum hull damage and kill them before their shields even drop.
Nice video!
Nice comment
Well edited and timed. Good job.
Maybe try this again with 100% Similar Builds but again with the 2 different types of shields. That would be a better show of the difference in the shields. Maybe one showing the difference between A-rated & Primatics then A-Rated & Bi-Weave? More Ideas for you for future Content. I'll be interested to know your thoughts.
Well again, this wasn't meant to show the differences in the shields, just put that in the title for a little click-bait - I have on my list a full guide to shields, I'll bump that up the list.
Great to see you back cmdr
Love your content, keep it up!
lol , I have the exact same full MC FDL weapon setup. Except I am running all five on overcharged.. The heat is not that bad if you don't boost as often. I am also running a Bi-weave as the problem with Prismatics + SCBs in random PvP .. is that most people get discouraged by the shield tank and high-wake away as their shields begin to strip away. With Bi-weave the get false hope, then they discover that underneath the shield tank, there is also a hull tank.. and then it is too late :D
I don't understand why so many people avoid MC builds and use far less effective stuff like beams, frags etc when it is by far the most effective one both for PvE and PvP (except of course as you mention, the top 10% of PvPers)
Excellent
Well done.
This is why I fly around in solo in my exploration/trade fit Conda. Getting pulled out of frameshift by a pvp fit FDL whilst I have 20k ly exploration data on board, would be far to stressful 😣
And that has what to do with a consequential PvP fight between two friends? PvP ganking, those guys are an entire different type of player.
@@Exigeous maybe he was saying that because these ships are so strong, he prefers to play in solo to never have to come up against a player who would destroy him with an engineered pvp ship
@@TheCabbageMan Uh, sure, but again that has what to do with an analysis of a consequential fight? I mean you do you but I'd think we'd be talking about the fight and not other random things from the game, that's all.
@@Exigeous agreed, great video though, thanks.
@@Exigeous He missed the point because you meant consensual instead of consequential.
Excellent video and combat! I have all most the same build in my fdl, but my SCBs restore a very low % of my prismatic shield. It's normal? I do something wrong?
I want have an idea for a similar build just curious about generating heat w the incendiary multis.
I was legit asking about this topic on the ED discord just yesterday.
Well seems you're on the wrong Discord, doesn't it?? My player group's is listed in the description, Level 11, hope you'll stop by.
I haven't done much combat. Which is funny, because it says I'm 43% to elite, and like 12-18% in the others even though I trade and explore far more.
Should do some more combat so I can learn how it all works.
Damn, i just had to tickle your notification bell because i almost missed this video. RUclips only puts cats and Gordon Ramsey on my starting page instead of important stuff like this... GRRR RUclips!
You get lots of Ramsay too?? I do enjoy cooking and his channel but damn, it's like 20% of my suggestions are him!
@@Exigeous Yes, bloody hell!
@@VincentVegas It is pretty funny how the algorithm works, isn't it? Sometimes I'll find 20+ videos from my homepage, others I can't find 2 I want to watch!
Lol me too. But that on-the-heat-off-the-heat guy is actually quite funny tho :D
@@Exigeous I know, you watch one and they want to cram him down your throat.
I love ED but I am such a noob and still learning.
I am not really into combat and I am still struggling how I can get more advance from my weapons. Like with using energy to your guns so an another thing won't have to cut off otherwise my guns wont get enough energy and don't work.
This kind of video's help me a lot.
I'm glad to hear that - the biggest advice I can give is pip management. I have a video that covers it - it is absolutely key to high-skill combat and is the single biggest thing you can do to step up your game. I use macros to quickly adjust between 4/0/2, 4/2/0 and sometimes 2/0/4 and 2/4/0 - but you never want to take pips from systems and you always want 4 pips in systems whenever your taking fire. As for your weapons you want to plan your build around your distro - so an all energy FDL (assuming uneingineered) wouldn't be great given it's smaller distro - but say a Krait Mark II with it's huge 7A works great for that.
Don’t give up!!! This game is tough at first but soo worth it! And all of his vids are very helpful, although he talks a bit fast sometimes, for me at least... Have fun! I wish it could all be new to me again!
Question - I keep getting pushed towards PA/Rails though it's a significant skill curve. Would you recommend PA/Rails for the FDL? I'm not a super great pilot or anything, mostly a pvp n00b but I'd like to practice with "meta" types before I end up in your gunsights xD
Yeah, that is the meta and yeah, it's definitely high skill. I actually run a gimballed multicannon FDL, huge overcharged/incendiary, 2 efficient/incendiary mediums and 2 OC mediums, one with dispersal and one with corrosive. All OC and you'll burn to death - it's a great build to start with as you can focus on your flying far more and not worry about your rail/PA aim. That's good for anyone but the top say 10% of PvP pilots out there and is a good starter IMHO.
Linea gem
Educational doesn't even begin to explain this???thanks too ooo much!!
What about prismatics vs biweaves for pve?
I enjoy watching duels but I'm not able to compete. Console controllers are very limited and seem crammed together. I occasionally remap but I can't find a comfortable scheme to run with.
Flight Assist Off is already a pain with my hands twisted. Vertical flight is a whole other style to find a solution to.
Didn't think I'd still be adjusting controls after a year of playing. I still feel like a scrub, feels nice.
Uh, well if your goal is to not try something new, learn more about the game and have fun I suppose great, don't engage in PvP. but there are plenty of high skill PvP pilots who use controllers and can kick my ass for sure.
Great video ! I'm switching a lot between FA OFF & ON while in combat. Never using it always OFF. Is there any advantage of manoeuvring only in FA off ?
Well yes and no, it really has to do with what you're flying. The notion that full FA-Off is somehow "better" is silly to me, "better" is whatever allows you to keep maximum time on target. If I'm running fixed I'm absolutely going to toggle - that said for any of the large class I'd say FA-off is best as you really need to let them 'float' - given their slower speeds/turn rates you don't want to be fighting that by trying to fly it in a way that it just can't. So most of the time I toggle, just before I turn I FA-off, turn, the pop it back on to steady myself. It's just easy to keep it off and again let the ship sorta float and go where it wants with a build like this.
@@Exigeous Thx for the reply ! Been using only small & medium ships so toggling between both is what I do since I find it more efficient. Make sense for big ships to keep it more on FA off wouldn't have thought of that !
o7
toggling is the best and most effective way to do it imo
Why haven't you gone for High Capacity with the Corrosive Shell experimental effect?
Well because it's very rare I run out of ammo and I need the heat reduction that efficient gives me and efficient gives a damage boost over high-cap. So for this build there's little reason to use high cap, however on my Mamba with a similar setup I do run high-cap on the two smalls and run corrosive on one of those.
Rewatchable, sir. 👍
Do you generate alot of heat while firing weapons?
hi CMDR Exigeous, thats some dog fight there! :) i have a kitted out FDL, i just need to engineer it now, it does stand its ground in HAZ sites tho :)
Yeah, but you'll find the difference in a Haz res and PvP couldn't be more immense. If you're stepping up though take it to a Conflict Zone, that's some of the most difficult PvE combat you'll find, other than Thargoids.
@@Exigeous cheers mate, was my first time in a Haz site last night, I was happy I didn't die lol, once I engineer a bit I'll try a conflict zone 🌞
@@Erevoking Oh sure, didn't mean to poo poo anything, we all start out somewhere don't we? Don't feel like you need engineering for a Conflict Zone, the nice thing about them is if you get in too deep (and don't wait too long) you can fly away from the fight and get your shields back, etc. Our player minor faction has been at war a lot lately so if you're looking to try it out you're welcome to come fight with us in a wing, so you can see what it's like with folks protecting your ass.
@@Exigeous would you recommend this build without engineering "yet" for pve?
@@Exigeous nah I didn't take it that way at all mate 🌞 you have a lot of experience and knowledge so it's good to hear your opinion
when I saw reactive heavy duty on that prismo shield stack I cried
Well bring whatever you want and I'll fight you with it and you'll really cry ;-)
@@Exigeous even a full reverski cutter? :)
@@den1ezy Uh, sure as I'll just not chase you and you'll fly off yourself - and seriously, you're saying my build makes you "cry" yet you're flying a reverski Cutter? I sincerely hope that was a joke as I can't think of a lower skill build.
CMDR Exigeous so you are saying that reverski is low skill playstyle ?
@@den1ezy Nah, I'd never (need to) say that....
Lol, 28% thermal resists, say hello to railverski fits :)
Why would I fight a revserski pilot? Is there any lamer way to fight?
@@Exigeous Isn't there a tactic by stopping in your tracks so they are forced to drop their momentum? then you charge ahead and catch them.
discord sound at 4:34
Yeah, damn you, I knew someone would notice it - I almost re-editing that section but it was pretty key so I figured it would be an easter-egg. Now, what sound IS that you're hearing??
sounds like someone leaving your stream
@@shibaplays Ding ding ding - yep, as a few of us were chatting I was streaming the fight into Discord. Now I gotta go silence all those so it doesn't get recorded again ;-)
Am I the only one who wants there to be more diversity in top tier combat beyond FDL?
NOT AT ALL - I actually don't really like the FDL that much, you can use the Mamba or Chieftain, both are also great.
@@Exigeous I'm one of those weirdos who actually likes Fed ships, and I'd love it if any of them were considered decent for once.
Why lightweight chaff over ammo increase?
Well that's debatable - I chose it for a bit more speed and as ammo cap slows the fire rate - but you could absolutely go ammo cap for sure
I have extremely low skill in combat, but still chose to build a Mamba with a huge PA, 2 rails and 2 beams because it sounded cool... Its only for pve anyway but hearing you say the rail build is "higher skill" makes me feel like maybe I'm doing ok afterall.
Well if you're already running that I'd swap out those two beams for two more efficient PAs, it'll be easier on your distro (depending on the beam engineering) and will do a LOT more damage. Personally I run an all gimballed multicannon setup as honestly my rail aim SUCKS!
@@Exigeous My rail aim sucks too but forcing it is making it better. I was also scoring a lot more hits than I was expecting with the PA. Current engineering is Long Range dispersal on the PA, Lightweight super pen on the rails, and Long Range thermal vent on the beams. With a weapon focused fast charge distro and low emissions monstered pp I havent had any power or heat problems yet. I did put together a coriolis build for 2 small beams and 3 PAs, and one with small rails and large beams which is the opposite of my current setup. This is my first fully engineered ship so I'm just playing around with it. I love the look and speed and sound of the Mamba so I'm trying to find a fun and interesting way to make it work with big space guns.
@@mikesleftarm84 Uh, to say that's off-meta is an understatement and while that might work in bounty hunting against a player or even engineered ships in a conflict zone I think you'd have a very different experience. May I suggest 3 efficient PAs, 2 long range rails, one with pen one with cascade, armoured plant (with monstered likely) and a charge enhanced distro - if you're doing weapon focused you just fucked your shields and engines, and given the huge advantage to the Mamba is it's speed AND shields (as it has stronger shields than the FDL) you're really selling that ship short. There's also no benefit to low emissions PP on that as you're integrity is likely so low a single super pen rail would likely take it out.
I applaud experimenting but there is a reason the various METAs are what they are.
@@Exigeous yeah, like I said I was just playing around. It all started with major weapon heat problems when I took the ship out stock, so the whole build was focused on keeping the heat as managed as possible and keeping the weapon distro over 50%(I read a rumorous post claiming the Mamba seemed to make way more weapon heat below 50%). I admit I didn't even consider any meta when I built it. As for shields I have a 5C Bi-weave with reinforced fast charge, and 3 boosters, one resistance augmented and two thermal resist, all with thermo block and they held up decently being pretty reckless with 3 pips in a PP military zone vs pythons and vultures, often several at once. I managed to not die for my whole 3 or so hours. I'm also using lightweight deep reactive armor, a 4D Lightweight deep hull reinforcement, and a 2D module armor. I will definitely welcome your advice and try out that build as well though. After your video about gathering engineering mats it should be pretty easy.
@@mikesleftarm84 Yeah, I don't mean to be rude at all but that build sounds hella fucked up to be honest. You basically never run anything but thermal/fast charge on a biweave, as you screw the whole point of a biweave - it's regen speed - with reinforced. You'd also basically never run anything but heavy duty armour, especially on a ship that has such a high speed with fully loaded hull. Same goes for a distro - and while your weapons do generate more heat when the distro is low that's not how you address it.
Here are two builds to consider, a heavy build with plenty of hull (drop the prismatic to an A rated if you don't have them yet - and if you don't get pledged ASAP) s.orbis.zone/5l53 and a faster, all shield build and a light build - s.orbis.zone/5l54
The light build is a bit low on hull so you'd need to be careful if you run into phasing (in a conflict zone) but is right at 600 m/s - about as fast as you'll get a Mamba. You'll also note the weapons - the fact is the placement of everything on the Mamba makes it really hard to run an all fixed setup. You could do thinks like run a huge lightweight thermal vent beam (to vent a ton of heat) but this loadout won't run hot due to the two large efficient multis. I've run this build for a long time and it slays both NPCs and in PvP. Again there's a reason the meta is the meta ;-)
I wish I could pvp like that lol
Hey, if I can do it anyone can do it! :D
@@Exigeous do you play with keyboard and mouse?
@@SemNome-ds1qy No, he uses a HOTAS, the Warthog I think.
links are down, can you link the builds again please? thanks
They're all fixed now - have another look and let me know if you're having trouble.
PvP is so much better with Hotas
"As a hotas player, I would use [flight assist on] to aim my rails"
Wait....what???
I find aiming rails FA on to be much more difficult and I only play hotas.
try a class 4 prismatic instead of a 5, is gud
Absolutely it is - and when I do the build video for the FDL I'll discuss that a bit more. What he means is you'll get more overall shields with a class 4 prismatic so you can have a class 5 bank, which is more overall energy. The main reason I run this is I'm not yet great with banking - and when most of your strength comes from banks it's more dangerous as more can get cancelled. But you make an excellent point, thanks.
Using the exact same modules and engineering the additional shields of a c4 prismo is 1MJ
@@firefraction8156 You're not looking at it correctly then - your in-ship base MJ number should actually go down a bit - but your total will go up. That said it's a smaller change than I was remembering, as my build has 3875 MJ where the class 4 build has 3887 MJ, which I'll admit really isn't enough to matter. On bigger ships it's a MUCH bigger difference, say on a Cutter or Vette running a smaller generator which huge banks makes a huge difference.
Glad you replied as I'll admit I had in my head is was closer to 150MJ or so.
its not just that, but the S p e e d you get.I flew a reactive c5 prismo fdl for a while and I didnt like it, until a friend told me to lightweight it and once the boost is at around 570 the handling becomes amazing, especially the laterals
also if you have almost 4k shields on an fdl , your resistantes are really bad. but I assume you already calculated it with resistances lol
Man I wish I could play ED
what's stopping you?
No system capable of running it.
Kinda unfair to me because if he was using an SCB Biweave build he probably would have won smh
I assume you mean "if he WASN'T" using the SCB build - and yes, absolutely, that's why I pointed that out in the video....
Got some issues with the prismatics build and I'm wondering if you could answer it.
s.orbis.zone/4usw
That's the build I use as I used to have a 5a prismatics but the two 4 banks would do nothing as people can cancel them so easily. Also with specialised boss cell I only got like 8% back whilst double banking. So why use a 5a prismatic but only a 4a bank?
Also due to the meta, biweaves are made redundant as pa's do absolute damage so you should test prismatics vs biweaves with full meta builds.
First the goal wasn't to show the difference between biweaves and prismatics, just to put both in the title for a little click-bait as both have to be worked around the entire build. As for banks you should ALWAYS use rapid/recycling if you're doing any PvP, then it's all about bank timing. Soon I'll be putting out a video specifically about using banks, double banking, when, etc. I fucked up massively in this fight - usually you'd sink before a pass when they are around 2.5k - then at 1.5k you hit your cell so just as they pass they see it and they have no time to turn on you -- if you do it jjust a bit early you can even get the second off before they can fire, but getting the second off without a cancel is hard. Remember a single medium rail only cancels about 30% or so - so it's not like you get nothing if you get hit.
Yeah I changed rny build a while ago now so I have a 4a and 5a rapid recycle shield banks with 1 heatsink. I just think with biweaves you need to go more Hull rather than shields and try to keep atleast 1 heavy duty 1 on
Bi-weaves still work, it just depends on the build you have for it. Though they are indeed difficult to fly in this meta.
If u Had xbox your gimbs would get chafed and your prissies would fall in approximately 10-15 volleys
What?
@@Exigeous he's having a brain meltdown