Jesus from Outer Space with Dr. Richard Carrier
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Our earliest surviving Christian writings contain no clear reference to Jesus as a historical figure. Instead they seem to portray the messiah as a celestial entity who existed before the creation of the earth and died at the hands of malevolent angels, and all of this took place not on earth, but somewhere just beneath the moon.
We'll be examining the most recent book from Dr. Richard Carrier entitled "Jesus from Outer Space" to learn what the Christians had to say about their messiah before the gospels were written.
Richard Carrier, Ph.D., is a philosopher and historian with degrees from Berkeley and Columbia, specializing in the contemporary philosophy of naturalism and Greco-Roman philosophy, science, and religion, including the origins of Christianity. He blogs and lectures worldwide, teaches monthly courses online through his website, and is the author of many books, including his defense of a naturalist worldview in Sense and Goodness without God, his academic case for the non-existence of Jesus in On the Historicity of Jesus, as well as his colloquial summary in Jesus from Outer Space, his work on historical methodology in Proving History, his study of ancient science in both Science Education and The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire, his responses to 21st century Christian apologetics in Why I Am Not a Christian and Not the Impossible Faith, and an anthology of his papers on the subject of history in Hitler Homer Bible Christ. He has also authored chapters in many other books, and articles in magazines and academic journals, and on his namesake blog, covering subjects from politics and history to philosophy and social justuce. For more about Dr. Carrier and his work see www.richardcarrier.info. 
Развлечения
I'm always on board when Carrier is included in the discussion.
Amen
Depends what the discussion entails. If Younger Dryas events, I would place your bets elsewhere - he's woefully ill-equipped for such topics.
True: most things in the New Testament are figurative and are in parables. This was to only make sense to the person that has found their inner key of intuition, and not to stir up heresy to those in power. It would make sense (except they were misinterpreted in the 2D, so a lot of the true meaning has been lost. To those taking it literal, it would not make any sense or those in power would not understand it.
I believe Jesus however was real. I think He has to be real or He wouldn't have stirred the whole planet up and made ripples for thousands of years.
Yes, they probably believed in layers of heaven back then. I believe there are layers as far as 2D, 3D, 4D, 5D, etc. Multidimensional.
They believed in sacrifices back then, but Jesus was trying to help them understand how their beliefs were backwards and tried to swap their beliefs into understanding that their bodies are Temples (keys inside if you focus inward) and that He died for sins so there are no sins anymore (forgiveness), thus no more sacrifices are needed. (True, this is a change in belief from the Old Testament, but instead of thinking of this as an inconsistency like Richard thinks; we should look at it like Jesus was trying to help them overcome their religious hurdles). So, He came to help humans overcome their religious issues and see the light, because we were stuck in a rut because of religion.
Yes, God is inside each person and each person is a Temple, as Richard said Christianity first stated. (I believe this was what Jesus was saying). Again, Richard thinks this is inconsistencies in the Bible, but he fails to see the human error in the process and the real message Jesus was trying to teach us. Jesus had to use parables because the system did not want to hear this. Later Christianity was changed by corrupt governments and agendas.
Richard Carrier seems like he is really caught up in thinking his logical 2D "reality" explains things, but if he was able to include his gut in the equation, it would make more sense. Also, Richard Carrier believes in the system, like he thinks just because his stuff is peer reviewed somehow makes it true, but the whole system is built on lies, so the whole system is fake in itself.
@@siriusfun Why would he discuss the Younger Dryas period? Just curious
Carrier is not a New Testament scholar, and he gives bad arguments and contradicts mainstream scholarship. Read "The Historical Jesus," by Habermas; and "Jesus Outside the New Testament," by Vanvoorst
Came for Carrier, stayed for the Dragons!
Great channel - well done, man!
Dr. Carrier always gets it all sorted out.
In 2D only though.
Jason, I hope things turn around for you soon. I'm sorry to hear you've encountered some hardships, stay strong, know you're not alone, and we're pulling for you.
Thank you. Your kind words are much appreciated.
Jesus isn't dead. I work with Jesus at the factory. Jesus Rodriguez.
Haha very funny!!! Gotta love it!!
Chui? Chui? Hes my carnal😂
He is probably morereliable than the other guy
Hey Zeus! ⚡️🤣
Dr Suess
This was a really good discussion. The host was quite well versed himself on the subject matter.
Yeah, DiG is great if you're interested in historicity of the Bible.
The host is very articulate. His whole channel is fascinating so happy I found it.
i am wroking my way through on the historicity of jesus. slow read but lots of well supported arguments. along with dr robert eisenman they are the best researchers and writers on these topics
Carrier is as erudite as they come. Excellent show!
Really; he isn’t at all.
@@danieleyre8913 Why do you say he's not?
@@onlimi616 Well how about the fact that this entire crackpot theory is based upon a poor appreciation of koine Greek and the context of translations?
@@danieleyre8913 Yes exactly! It's hard to remember all the issues. Bad translations and "prophesies" being taken out of context that were already fulfilled in the OT 100's of years prior. Jesus himself (allegedly) says numerous times in the NT that he will return in his generation. That would mean that the "rapture" already occurred 2000 years ago. If not, then he would have to be a false prophet. But I digress...
@@onlimi616 Oh here we go; another one of you cretin Carrier fans who immediately assumes that anyone who laughs at him must be a Christian. No I don’t believe in any god or supernatural Jesus. I’m going by what the (actual) scholars say.
Carrier is carrying on from some prior bad pseudo scholarship from amateur Earl Doherty who misinterpreted an appearance of the word “gospel” in one of the Pauline epistles for meaning the written books of the bible (written after Paul himself was killed) instead of its literal meaning: “good news”. And Carrier also misunderstands the Koine Greek word “sperma” and it’s context and thinks that they were referring to spermatozoa, which the ancients had no way of knowing even existed.
In my view, the point to emphasize is around the burden of proof. Historicists can easily criticize Mythicists and put them on the defensive when they make positive claims that 'Jesus didn't exist'. This is similar to atheists who claim 'God doesn't exist'. When they make the claim, they have the burden of proof. The point to make is that there is simply no credible evidence for a god, or a 'historical Jesus'. And if you have no reason to believe in a 'historical Jesus', the mythicist position comes by default---just as it does for Hercules, Dionysus, Romulus, and other resurrected demigods. The point is that Historicists can't prove a 'historical Jesus', and their view is based on the LEAST CREDIBLE kinds of claims, which are some documents by anonymous, biased Christian scribes dated hundreds of years after the supposed events that are filled with fiction, forgery and fraud. When Christians cite 'Josephus' or 'Tacitus', what they are REALLY referencing are 11th century manuscripts written by anonymous, biased Christian scribes, etc. Mythicists do not need to defend Mythicism, they only need to point out how weak the case is for historicity. Moses is now considered mythical because scholars recognize that there's actually no credible evidence that he ever existed. Exactly....
The History Channel claims to have found evidence of ancient aliens, but the cannot find a mountain in Saudi Arabia. Why not?
The Apostle Paul said Mount Sinai is located in Arabia. Moses father-in-law Jethro was a priest of "Midian". On older maps Midian is found in Northwest Arabia. Recent archeology has provided a tremendous amount of evidence that the real Mount Sinai is in Arabia.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
ruclips.net/video/n_VQ7rG638w/видео.html
Fascinating talk, thank you for posting
Great interview! Love Richard Carrier,,
Thank you so much for featuring my favorite of all the Mythicists!
Great discussion. Mahalos! 🤙
Fascinating Stuff. Thanks Jason and Richard
Atheist pastor's daughter here. lol
A lot of this will transfer perfectly for my next dnd campaign. Lol
Your father is an atheist?
@@lavieenrose5954 he's a pastor so yes ofcourse.
@@daxbruce3491 LOL
@@1911Zoey thank you, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your server.
I grew up as a pastor's step son and am now a atheist... He disowned me when I said I didn't know if i believed in God.
Thanks. Great discussion👍
This was highly interesting. Thank you😊
Jason - It's great to see another video from Dragons in Genesis
Thank you 🙌🏾💯
good one! always lookin for more Carrier!
Yes! Love listening to him,
Dr Richard Carrier is mind hero
Great interview. You have a new subscriber. I often wonder whether the euhemerisation of celestial figures is a technique which allows the religion to be sold into communities with a different cosmology.
Are the Gospels/Acts using *Plato's Noble Lie* to save non-philosophers, or rather the common masses that cannot grasp deep metaphysical concepts?
"For Plato we should live according to what reason is able to deduce from what we regard as reliable evidence. This is what real philosophers, like Socrates, do. *But the non-philosophers are reluctant to ground their lives on logic and arguments. They have to be persuaded. One means of persuasion is myth. Myth inculcates beliefs. It is efficient in making the less philosophically inclined, as well as children, believe noble things."*
"In the Republic *the Noble Lie is supposed to make the citizens of Callipolis care more for their city."*
" *...Socrates says that the myth “would save us, if we were persuaded by it”. Myth represents a sort of back-up: if one fails to be persuaded by arguments to change one’s life, one may still be persuaded by a good myth. Myth, as it is claimed in the Laws, may be needed to “charm” one “into agreement” when philosophy fails to do so."*
plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-myths/
Plato: Theaetetus
"SOCRATES: In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! *He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, "his Truth" (a book by Protagoras) in secret to his own disciples."*
classics.mit.edu/Plato/theatu.html
Mark the first Gospel written is not conveying history. But is a literary artifice, an allegory (also midrash) of OT scripture (overt/covert) and Pauline theology.
*Mark 5:1-20*
"1 *They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes. 2 And when he had stepped out of the boat, immediately a man out of the tombs with an unclean spirit met him. 3 He lived among the tombs; and no one could restrain him any more, even with a chain; 4 for he had often been restrained with shackles and chains, but the chains he wrenched apart, and the shackles he broke in pieces; and no one had the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always howling and bruising himself with stones.* 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him; 7 and he shouted at the top of his voice, *“What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” 8 For he had said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” 9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion; for we are many.”* 10 He begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now there on the hillside a great herd of swine was feeding; 12 and the unclean spirits begged him, “Send us into the swine; let us enter them.” 13 So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, *rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.*
14 The swineherds ran off and told it in the city and in the country. Then people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 They came to Jesus and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the very man who had had the legion; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen what had happened to the demoniac and to the swine reported it. 17 Then they began to beg Jesus to leave their neighborhood. 18 *As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed by demons begged him that he might be with him. 19 But Jesus refused, and said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and what mercy he has shown you.” 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him; and everyone was amazed."*
Philo: In Flaccum
"VI *There was a certain madman named Carabbas,... this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat,..."*
Isaiah 65:1, :4a
"1 *I was ready to be sought out by those who did not ask, to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, 'Here I am, here I am',
to a nation that did not call on my name."*
"4a *who sit inside tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat swine's flesh,"*
Psalm 107:4-7 :10-14
"4 *Some wandered in desert wastes, finding no way to a city to dwell in;* 5 hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted within them. 6 *Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress; 7 he led them by a straight way, till they reached a city to dwell in."*
"10 *Some sat in darkness and in gloom, prisoners in affliction and in irons, 11 for they had rebelled against the words of God,* and spurned the counsel of the Most High. 12 Their hearts were bowed down with hard labor; they fell down, with none to help. 13 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress; 14 *he brought them out of darkness and gloom, and broke their bonds asunder."*
1 Kings 17:18
"18 And she said to Eli′jah, *“What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance,* and to cause the death of my son!” "
Psalm 78:49
"49 He let loose on them his fierce anger, wrath, indignation, and distress, *a (legion) company of destroying angels."*
Exodus 14:28a
"28a *The waters returned and covered the chariots and the horsemen and all the host of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea;"*
"Mark's imitation also retains some of the distinctive traits of Odyssey, insofar as both stories place monsters in caves, grazing animals on the mountains, and neighbors at the scene. ...Finally, just as Odysseus told Polyphemus to tell others who it was who blinded him, Jesus tells the Gerasene to tell others who it was who healed him."
Dennis R MacDonald, The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, pp. 73
"Detailed analysis of the traditions shared by Matthew, Mark, and Luke provides strong support for the view that Mark provided the template that Matthew and Luke revised, both correcting and smoothing out its language and expanding the Jesus material it contained."
The New Oxford Annotated Bible-NRSV, pp. 1380
The anonymous author of Mark (named out of early church tradition) hints to the reader that it's entirely a parable in which the meaning is an inside secret.
Mark 4:10-12
"10 *When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that 'they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven (Isa. 6:9-10).'"*
Here's another example of Mark using the OT to flesh out his narrative:
*Mark 1:16-17*
"16 And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon *casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men.”'*
Jeremiah 16:16a
"16a *“Behold, I am sending for many fishers, says the Lord, and they shall catch them;"*
Ezekiel 47:10a, :10c
"10a *Fishermen will stand beside the sea;" "10c fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea."*
1 Kings 19:19-21
"19 So he set out from there, and found Elisha son of Shaphat, who was plowing. *There were twelve yoke of oxen ahead of him, and he was with the twelfth. Elijah passed by him and threw his mantle over him.* 20 He left the oxen, ran after Elijah, and said, "Let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow you." Then Elijah said to him, "Go back again; for what have I done to you?" (compare Mat. 8:21-22) 21 He returned from following him, took the yoke of oxen, and slaughtered them; using the equipment from the oxen, he boiled their flesh, and gave it to the people, and they ate. *Then he set out and followed Elijah, and became his servant."*
Thank you for having Dr. Carrier on; it was a very educational interview, Jason. I need a copy of that book; I myst get it.
Came her via Mythvision! Awesome channel! Subbed! :)
This video never gets old
Yea always enjoy Carrier!
Just seeing this now (Oct 2023). Excellent discussion.
Carrier’s knowledge on the history is top tier. Great show. Sidenote: I can’t help but laugh when his voice cracks. It sounds like McLovin in the liquor store saying he heard the beer had more hops in it😂😂😂
Except it isn’t at all. This crackpot nonsense is built upon his poor appreciation of koine Greek.
@@danieleyre8913 please point out what is crackpot in the argument
@@psilosydetrusenses4125Daniel posts the same thing every time: angry judgment and vitriol, without evidence or citation.
He isn't here to provide people with the information they would need to understand his position, he just wants to lash out at those who disagree with him. It's all about him, and his needs.
Conversation with Daniel has been unfruitful for me. Maybe you can find a way to reach him and get useful information out of him.
@@PBAmygdala2021 The easiest way to debunk Dr. Carrier's hypothesis would be to just present credible evidence for a 'historical Jesus'. But defenders can't seem to do that, which backs up Dr. Carrier's point. Daniel Eyre is a troll who hits all these videos of Dr. Carrier, but all he does is make insults, and can't seem to provide any evidence for a 'historical Jesus'. So all he has left are logical fallacies and insults.
@@mythbuster1483 I for one would like to see Daniel's evidence for a historical Jesus...
It must really upset historicists who focus entirely on attacking the Ascension of Isaiah that Jesus from Outer Space doesn't include it. It means they'll have to focus on the strong evidence instead.
Upset? No they just laugh at it and then ignore it. "Strong evidence" my foot...
Danny Eyre is an angry fanatic who’s mad because his faith in a ‘historical Jesus’ has been crushed by scholars who have shown that the gospel fairy tales simply have no basis in fact. There is simply not a scrap of historically credible evidence for the gospel fairy tales being based on a real historical figure. It’s certainly possible…but it’s also possible that stories about demigods with superpowers whose rotting corpses magically return to life are complete fiction: as we assume is the case with Romulus, Hercules, Asclepius, Dionysus, etc. Why should we assume differently with Jesus, other than growing up in a culture that is dominated by members of his cult, where his birthday is celebrated as a national holiday every year, and the calendar is based on his supposed birth (as the Julian calendar was based on Romulus, who we now consider fictional)?
@@danieleyre8913 well that sure as he'll shut you up!
@@ghostriders_1 Not really.
I’ve destroyed this midget (which he is, look at his channel) countless times since 2016. All he resorts to is block-posting copied prepared replies which aren’t even relevant to what he was losing on. I let himself show himself up. Looks like some people can’t pick up on that though.
Now he’s resorting to false flagging my comments on countless videos.
@@mythbuster1483 To claim that Carrier's theory is fringe, garbage... whatever else, when D E admits to not having read a single book of Carrier's, is quite disingenuous! I don't think D E could actually say what carrier's theory is, let alone why it is wrong. And from what I've seen of him, he hasn't provided a single sensible rebuttal to any of the evidence C raises. Oh well.
I've seen Richard speak in person twice. Big fan.
Foux, as a host you shine. "...some chapters of that book could give you a brain bleed.." LMAO that was fine humor!
I would be interested to know what Carrier thinks about Russell Gmirkin and his late date for the pentatuch about 270 BC.
Gmirkin's take on dating is super interesting and you are right, Carrier's take on the would be awesome.
Great job gentleman.
I met Richard Carrier in Port Huron, Michigan at the Krystal Bar/Chicken in the Rough. Though I don't think he would remember the event. He was just passing through to another event. I like Dr. Carrier's hypothesis regarding the Jesus story.
The Q comparison is very insightful.
Thanks & greetings from Czechia!
It's a shame there is nobody willing argue for historicity with knowledge comparable to Carrier's.
There's too much money on the line
@@madebyreuben3402 agree
The usual suspect would be Bart Erhman but there is too much on the line for him. If he wouldn't convincingly win the debate that would compromise his credentials and only serve to raise Carrier's profile further.
Its not a shame, it is a consequence of the quality of the evidence. Jesus was invented. If you have knowledge comparable to Carrier's you cannot be a historicist.
@@robbietulip1542 In your view, what tips the balance in favor of mythicism? It seems to me minimal historicity is at least equally plausible.
Surely the most knowledgeable person on the net on the origin of Christianity
One of the best thumbnails ever! Congrats to the channel!
Truly fascinating
I’m a truck driver and prefer the audio books also 👍🏻😀
I've read that book. It's good! And it's great for laymen to have an easy introduction to the issues.
Really?
That’s a change from his previous books then, which are all notoriously badly written and painful to try and read through.
@@danieleyre8913 bullshit! You haven't read any of them!
@@ghostriders_1 I admit that I haven’t bothered even chasing down Carriers books let alone wasting my time reading them. I have however read excerpts from them published online, a couple of his journal articles that are or were available online, the damning credible reviews of them and many of his puerile blogs. So I know full well that he is a terrible author with a tendency to waffle and with an inarticulate unattractive narration style.
And I feel safe assuming that that’s more than you actually have.
@@danieleyre8913 I've read them all and beg to differ. What do you mean by " notoriously badly written and painful to try and read through."? I found them clear, logical, full of citations, every argument backed up, and extremely intersting to read. Maybe they are above your pay grade?
@@danieleyre8913 "That’s a change from his previous books then" vs "I admit that I haven’t bothered even chasing down Carriers books" Well that explains a lot...
I can see this channel having a damned sight more subscibers in twelve months time!
I’m hoping so!
@@DragonsinGenesisPodcast
I hope so as well!
Please consider also posting these interviews in a series of short videos, one for each question.
It makes it very handy to just watch a specific topic, which might entice more new viewers to try one or two short videos rather than the whole thing (daunting for some).
More videos also means more revenue opportunities!
@@DragonsinGenesisPodcast Perhaps you can have Dr Carrier on again and discuss the topic of his dissertation? The general history of learning and science in the early roman empire is a broader and more interesting topic than Jesus. 😊
Great information provided. Great interview.
Dr. Carrier's Patreon article philosophy is pretty cool. I like that.
Incredibly fascinating discussion. After doing extra biblical study I’m so glad I deconstructed. Awesome channel man. Keep ‘em comin’🤟
His name was Jmmanuel, not Jesus. His biological father was Gabriel, his biological mother was Mary (or Maria) and his stepfather was Joseph (or Joshua). He was a King of Wisdom, a Jschwjsch (JHWH). He was nailed to wood (not t-shaped but y-shaped). Jmmanuel did a meditation to stay alive on the y-shaped wood. His friends/family/disciples took him to some cave that doesn't exist anymore. Healers from India traveled to see him and it took them three days to heal him. After that, they all went to India. Christianity has reigned for 1600 years because they conspired to destroy the libraries of the city of Alexandria in 467 AD. Nokodemion is the name of the spirit that was inside of Jmmanuel, a human being. Nokodemion will only appear 7 times as a prophet. The 5th time was Jmmanuel. The 6th time was Mohammed. The 7th and final time is 'Billy' Eduard Albert Meier (BEAM).
@@belindaelisa5618 you are adorably naive. The Bible story’s never happened. Reality as we observe it today is incompatible with the fantastic stories in the Bible or Koran. People don’t come back from the dead and animals don’t speak, there is no original sin so there is no need for a redemptive sacrifice. I was once a believer in the impossible too. Find happiness in reality and not fantasy
@@KeytarKris There are many people around the world who read books by Billy Eduard Albert Meier. He wrote over 60 books. They study his material daily, some of them for decades. You and most of the planet haven't heard of Billy Meier because his information was suppressed, starting in the 1950s. I am talking about reality, not a story like Narnia. All religions are fundamentally wrong.
@@belindaelisa5618 you’re talking about Ufology huh? Interesting subject
@Keytar Kris 🎹🎸 Very good.
I had some religious friends growing up and they always told me I needed to strengthen my personal relationship with Jesus. I finally did at a music festival in 2002, and he spoke to me. He was a tall, tanned man with a flowing beard and very modest clothing. He told me not to bother with the whole worship thing, gave me a piece of chocolate with a gold wrapper and took off with some other people I dont really remember. I opened that chocolate, ate it, and then looked at the golden wrapper. It said "this is your ticket into heaven." And I can honestly say I haven't been the same since.
So Willy Wonka is Jesus?
Jesus from outer space is not controversial. In grade 7 I went to a Seventh Day Adventist private school. They taught us that heaven was literally in outer space. They even knew where it was... Through Orion's Belt! Lol.
I was taught that is SDA church also
The Bible literally says Heaven is the clouds
Yeah. “Controversial” isn’t the right word. Outright absurd or desperate would be better terms.
@@HistoryandReviews This idea that heaven comes from Orion's Belt comes from the SDA profit Ellen White who wrote on her 21st birthday "Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. The atmosphere parted and rolled back; then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The Holy City will come down through that open space."
Richard has to do an Audible version of Jesus Christ From Outer Space!
I am waiting for this!
Where in scripture does it say Christ was crucified In outer space?
@@gustavmahler1466 If I recall correctly, the idea is that Paul's Jesus was not a historical person. In Paul.
@@2Hesiod so no verse says Christ was crucified In outer space?
@@gustavmahler1466 I don't well recall what he was saying about that other than that the idea of Jesus was originally an idea historicized rather than a person deified (Euhemerized). Paul's Jesus was a cosmic Jesus.
Ya, as much as I like Myth Vision and the Godless Engineer, I really felt like Jason provided for a more interesting discussion with Carrier. Really enjoyed this one!
Newton's Apple I love Dr. Carrier.
Estimates regarding the date of the 'Ascension of Isaiah' range anywhere from the final decades of the first century [80 - 99 AD] to the early decades of the third century [210 - 220 AD], though scholars prefer some time in the early 2nd century [110 - 120 AD] .. The reason for this large range in dating is due to the fact that there is virtually no information that allows for a confident dating into any specific period. Many scholars believe it to be a compilation of several texts completed by an unknown Christian scribe who claimed to be the Prophet Isaiah .. It is generally believed that the text is composed of three different sections written at different times, by different authors. The earliest section, regarding chapters 3:13-4:22, was composed at about the end of the first century AD or perhaps early second century and is believed to be a text of Jewish origins which was later on redacted by Christian scribes. The date of the Vision of Isaiah (chapters 6-11) is rather more difficult to determine, but it is no more recent than the third century, since Jerome (c. 347-420 AD) cites a fragment of the work in some of his writings, but from internal evidence it seems that the text is to be placed before the end of the second century AD .. #JesusWasAFraud
Thx
One of the things with Hubbard is that he came up with Dianetics shortly after Randall Garrett and Robert Silverberg wrote a series called "The Dawning Light" about modifying a society through an artificial religion. One story goes that Silverberg and Garrett were discussing their series at a convention while Hubbard was in the room--Hubbard then disappeared and didn't surface until he had come up with Dianetics...
That sounds like something L. Ron would do! Though actually, what designates an "artificial" religion from the "genuine" article? All supernaturalist belief systems are essentially "artificial" anyway.
@@lefantomer in the case of the book series by Silverberg and Garrett the religion was considered artificial because it was deliberately created by non-believers for social engineering reasons. It did not arise organically from the existing cultural beliefs of the society
@@Lemurion287 Fair distinction and accurate description. I believe L. Ron actually admittedly openly that he did it to make money!
@@lefantomer plus, I have always found it suspicious that Dianetics first appeared in Astounding Science Fiction. I'm a huge fan of the magazine, but I wouldn't have looked to it for revelation.
@@Lemurion287 Yes, that should have been everyone's first clue! The other story I find amusing is how Crowley reacted to Hubbard and Jack Parsons trying to "create a Moon Child". As he put it, " I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts!"
we must all walk naked in the forest with cold beers for 40 days and nights give or take a few minutes.
Carrier is the goat...
D.M. Murdock is the goat.
You should have Jonathan Pageau on. He describes religion through symbolism.
The third temple is on its way! Should it be turned into a Disney like vacation attraction?
"turned into"?......
Well why not, Walts successful empire is built entirely on made up characters that cushion the human mind against stark realities, so if the shoe fits🤷🏻♂️
Richard's mention of Osiris should give a hat tip to D.M. Murdock's tome Christ in Egypt.
Lol, channel name won you guys a subscribe :-P
Y'all just need to humble yourselves in order to feel the Power of the Oxytocin Father, Serotonin Son, and the Holy Dopamine Ghost via Placebo Faith. Then things will make sense.
What copy of 1 Corinthians was he reading? The quotes he gives are not in chapters 14 or 15. I should know, I just looked them up.
If Satan has rebelled against God why does he punish the wicked or those in Hell? It seems to me that Satan would just Welcome to Hell the land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
Satan is not doing that, God is.
Thank you
When is carrier going to release Jesus from Outer Space as an audiobook
Jesus is a space alien?! That is a lot more sensible than much of the theology I've heard. Space aliens I regard as natural beings.
25:18 - Actually we do have evidence of this sort of belief. The Naassene heretical sect described by hipploytus said he came back time and again, but instead of jewish figures they used mystery gods like Attis, Dionysus, Adonis/Thammuz, etc.
1:04:55 - He wasn't mourning her enough when she got out. She had to substitute herself with someone and when she saw him just chilling on his throne instead of weeping, she was angered and said to take him. She then regretted the decision and decided to institute the ritual mourning.
Fucking exactly. Thank you.
This is true but what do you do about it ???@!!! Anybody suggestions maybe
What's interesting Isaiah and jesus in Hebrew means the same thing. It's the same name. At the end of the assention of Isaiah, Isaiah is killed in the earthly region by the authorities. Fox book of martyrs also say Isaiah was killed by the authorities ( Jewish king). What's also interesting is Isaiah was closely related to king Ahaziah. The king before king manasseh, maybe with the changing of kings and a new dynasty may have been the cause of Isaiah's death.
Long time ago In Galaxy far far away......
Is it snark if you're correct?
44:50 Do we know *when* christians started to insist that their rewritten myths were literally “true”, rather than intended to communicate an esoteric message below the exoteric surface?
What is the original source off this early Jesus killed by the Greeks? They talk about it around minute 20 in the video
I don't know the Talmudic citations. The Christian source is Epiphanius, "Panarion," 29.
@@HegelsOwl thank you!!
Erich von Dänicken was always right :-D
HA!
EL (the inert, innocent) is the Bull and the Lamb slaughtered/sacrificed in the Creation by Heaven and Earth (the active workers of evil), the principalities or witnesses.
were the early christians deliberately and explicitly platonists or semi-platonists, or were they just using similar ideas? I'm specifically referring to the idea that the higher heavens have more and more perfect and real things while lower levels have only imperfect copies
Highly unlikely in my view. Most of them were illiterate so philosophical inquiry wasn't necessarily a number one priority. Platonic dualism as well as other currents of thought was something only the upper classes had access to.
@@scholarvid1842 The gospel authors and other authors of christian texts were clearly highly educated
@@scholarvid1842 - the philosophical underpinnings were decided on or chosen by the literate leaders and inventors of early Christianity not the illiterate "sheep" in the congregations surely.
@@thefinnishbolshevik2404 That is surely the case. I was referring to the vast majority of early christians. The letters of Paul and later the gospels appear to be written by highly literate Greeks familiar with platonic dualism. The way to learn Greek and be proficient in Greek literature was by learning from the Homer epics and the great philosophers. My point was that most early Christians took the letters/gospels at face value without much challenge. Even if they wanted to challenge what means would they have since they were poor? Go to Jerusalem? Highly unlikely in my view.
@@mushypeasplease8872 It seems to me that's the most plausible approach.
*So it was like the Wright Brothers. Took a while to get a real flight...*
*Turns out that there was someone there first...*
There are so Many Christians Who Already Believes that JESUS CHRIST Came forth Out From GOD in HEAVEN and Was Born in this World to Save the World and to Give Eternal Life.
So based on what Dr. Carrier said, 2 Corinthians 11:33, which is the only time Paul gives that can be used to date his era, where he is lowered in a basket in Damascus, “the governor under King Aretas....”, would place him in history between 85-72 BC and make it Greek not Roman era resurrection story. Paul would be 100 years before the Book of Acts retells the same story but changes Aretas to Jews and moves him to the Roman era, and the more popular 33 AD. In the Corinthians version Paul stops the story with his escape, but in Acts he goes to join the others in Jerusalem.
In the synoptics specifically Luke, Jesus was 30
Paul is Germanicus the grandpa of Nerones, his lifespan is easy to find. Jesus is Nerones mirrorred back in time. Jesus and Nerones are the same age, and deal a similar life. Jesus is a parody on the other but because he is 'earlier' the original (neros chrestos) is called the anti-christ, the false copy. In fact Jesus is the duplicate or duplo-christ. Nero is born when Jesus dies, as a reincarnation Nero thus is the second-coming. Where the Flavians replace the Julio-Claudians as ruling dynasty, Nerones as savior is replaced by Titus Vespesian. Jesus (fiction) < Nerones > Titus > Jesus (fiction). Christianity murphed from Ceasarism; the adoration of the divine ceasars.
@@HistoryandReviews at the beginning of his ministry, so he 'dies' aged 31 or 32 .
@@willempasterkamp862 the gospels dont even give a full year ministry unless you count that trash known as “John” which is a completely different story
@@willempasterkamp862 this is new to me and so very interesting.
Do you have any peer-reviwwed scholarly material you could share?
Lagavulin is all the notes, salty peaty smoky, you gotta really like scotch
I think, Dr Richard misses an important point tho. Travel time. Letters took months.. if they ever got there. Shipwrecks etc. Insular societies. I reckon near impossible for stories to travel by foot over such distances in a single lefetime.
That's not how the ancient world worked. Most long-distance travel was by sea, hopping from port to port along the coast of the Mediterranean. And the large Empires had roads and wayposts specifically to maintain fast communications - no ancient Empire would have been remotely possible to hold together if everyone walked everywhere on foot. These societies were anything but insular, they had been interacting in the melting pot of the eastern Med for thousands of years by that point
@@ciaranirvine And ancient fast is????
Isn't Jesus from outer space basically Superman?
I think the Jesus story came first.
Well, Jesus doesn't become Superman until Luke & Matthew. In Mark, he is a regular guy who gets superpowers after receiving the Holy Spirit from God. So he's like Spiderman in Mark. In Luke and Matthew, he's BORN a superhero, like Superman. In John, he's a pre-existent divine being who incarnates in human form.
Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat (Spaceship)
Richard! Jesus is Dead! Excellent title!! That's why I like you!!
Archons of Aeons
Have you all heard of Urantia?
cia propaganda
1:00:54 Interesting, also the Seventh-Day-Adventists believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.
At 47:00, Dr. Carrier basically describes what is going on in the United States with the Trump phenomenon. It's a recurring phenomenon in history and it can be observed in all types of societies and cultures.
Creator of the world
👾👾 👾👾👾 👾
You're too close to the camera bro it's making me uncomfortable lol
That FREAKING clicking when he talks!!!!!
You two guys walk on water and in outer space--just like Jesus. Love all you guys, Price's silly titles, Fitzgerald's Nailed, Carrier's space Jesus. Paul is a want-to-be angel? What a weirdo. It all has to do with wanting power over people.
Awesome interview! Woo-hoo! Historicity is the final death of the mythical resurrectionist demigod.
This reminds me of what is happening in the Republican party......I see so many parallels in what Richard is saying.......
I have always seen the similarities between Christianity and Cargo Cults. They are waiting for John Frum or Jesus to come back and save them.
I met John Frum once...he told me that since he'd seen the chicks in Southern California there was no way he was going back to those god forsaken islands.
It is highly likely that the cargo cult myth was based on a real person from America named John; I guess that what they have in common.
What is the story of Jesus under Greek rulers from? What is the document called?
Edit your videos. We don't need to sit through long pauses while you fumble with your controls.
Was Jesus the planet Venus?
Yeah. I think it's in "Revelation", 22.16, or there abouts.
@@HegelsOwl I think the Pagans morphed Jesus with multiple Celestials. But I found the origin of the mythos of Jesus as a real person but vastly different than potrayed in Biblical writings. He was King Izates and leader of the Jweish Revolt in the A.D. 70's I think Ralph Ellis pieced together this coded history the best anyway.
@@juggernautnation369 I've only seen some of Ellis' YT vids. I'm so glad we're seeing people like this starting to think "outside the box." It enables theories like my own "Trojan Horse Christianity" to "come out of the closet." I think everybody owes some gratitude to Crossan and Carrier; and, before them, Morton Smith.
25:35 LOL, whack-a-mole comeback in several centuries.
He was always from outer space in the outer space sperm of the outer space. father. Craaaazy
When is Richard moving onto Islam and Judaism? Or are we supposed to infer they are false too with this research?
It's fine that they understood a literal association back then; It's not fine to hold them to it when they couldn't have known. Nibiru in Zoroastrianism was "ferry or waystation": title should be "Jesus from coherence detection" cuz, that's what's happening.