Dr. Carrier has a life background is similar to mine! Except I have no Ivy League background. Now my prof background is Nuclear power (mil)/Robotics(Tesla)/Programming (bach)/Russian(UA)/AI (masters). He's got 17 years on me, though.
1:14:35 Dr.Carrier is refering to the Roman combat "devotio". . and it should be noted that Rome found Druid forced human sacrifice practices abhorant and hence annihilated them like Roman Seutonius Paulinus did with his legions on the island of Anglesey(Mona) 60 AD followed by Agricola in 77 AD... (source; Roman historian Tacitus)..Also under the rule of Tiberius,(14-37 AD) Rome did away with Druids in Roman provinces of Gaul.(source; Pliny).
I have sympathy for this. We kept some Soviet monuments up in Latvia. One of the points of the Russians leaving in the 90s, was free Latvia would still care for their monuments. After Russia invaded Ukraine (for the second time) we destroyed them and rightfully so.
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances, they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.” James Madison
59:00 Yeah and in effect some religious groups have pretty much become community organisations, rather than requiring a literal belief in God. Unitarians as Carrier says is a good example, many Jews don´t see a literal belief in God as a requirement, you just need to keep the rituals and Modern Anglicanism in the UK could evolve that way. Indeed, I am culturally quite Catholic, I like Catholic buildings and I like church music and if a literal belief in God stopped being necessary to be a member and they reformed the institution to make it less corrupt, I might go.
For me they'd have to make the mass significantly less boring and eliminate all the "Catholic guilt" bull. I feel like I'd rather get my teeth drilled, at least something would be happening. Of course if they eliminated the mind-numbing parts and the parts where you have to claim to be a wretched sinner, there wouldn't be anything left.
Augustus didn't destroy de Republic he just ended what others started. The key moment was the Marian reforms of the army effectively making them a force of mercenarys highly professionalized so then they stared to be used by very ritch people and victorious and ambitious generals/politicians (Imperator). The military carrier was as susseful as the military triumphs in lhe last part of the Republic, so does the civil wars. In fact the gravedigger of the Republic was Julius Caesar the nephew of Marius. He totally devaluated the Senate as an aristocratic most important institution of the Republic. He subverted the Roman law by proclaiming himself perpetual dictator. The institution of the dictatorship was only to use during a limited amount of time in case of existential threats to the state or the society and ad a very and well defined scope based on the tenet: "necessitas non habet legem"(the violation of a law may be excused by necessity). So who was the first proto-emperor in fact was Julius Caesar up to 27 b.C when Octavius Augustus(Caesar's grandnephew) that proclaimed himself "dominus et deos". But at first he pretended that we want to restore the Republic and gradually e reinforced is personal power thus founding the Roman Empire.
One thing I would somewhat disagree with Carrier on is that the Romans brutally persecuted Magicians, indeed, they really introduced the "magic" versus "religion" tradition which didn´t exist in Egpyitan religion. That might be seen as a civil order crime in all fairness, to counter my view there. It may be that the authorities persecuted magicians because they´d help people curse others and spread rivalries etc. Ronald Hutton´s talk on this subject at Gresham college is worth checking out.
52:15 Why does Carrier here struggle to make the parallel explicit? He says exactly what it is the Roman “reform” sought to change and its motives - but doesn’t do the same to the modern parallel, but rather pauses & uses broad language that doesn’t elucidate anything. Like so: Rome: in changing the statute, govt is admitting that women are actually equal. GOP/P.2025: “…manipulate society in particular ways, and in doing so we’re kind of admitting, uh, that, what - what our real values are, what we really think about things - but we’re sort of gonna put this veneer underneath it of, of this sort of rationalization of why we’re doing it, that isn’t really the reason that we’re doing it…” “…march toward fascism…” I guess if I read the document myself I might zero-in on what he’s dancing around? But this is unusual for Carrier. If he sets out to draw a specific parallel he usually actually SAYS what he’s arguing & how it follows from the lead-up.
Yeah, to be fair to him it was a broad question about proj 2025, a gigantic document. But I imagine he was speaking about the dangers of Christian theocracy. It is also on the back of the Kagan book we discussed (Rebellion), a conservative who is worried about the posible directions of the Trump campaign.
No one's better than Richard Carrier when it comes this stuff.
Richard Carrier on THIS channel!? Sweet! I'm a fan. Did not expect this crossover at all. Can't wait to listen to this.
Hope you enjoyed! We have a lot of work to do, going to explore as many issues as we can! 🙂
Great discussion. Every time I listen to Dr Carrier it's like hitting a refresh button on 'how much I don't know'. I hope you invite him back.
Awesome talk... thanks for having him on... this guys knows his stuff.
This was an amazing conversation. Thank you.
Dr. Carrier has a life background is similar to mine! Except I have no Ivy League background. Now my prof background is Nuclear power (mil)/Robotics(Tesla)/Programming (bach)/Russian(UA)/AI (masters). He's got 17 years on me, though.
That’s what Project 2025 or Agenda 47 aims to do 11:43
1:14:35 Dr.Carrier is refering to the Roman combat "devotio".
. and it should be noted that Rome found Druid forced human
sacrifice practices abhorant and hence annihilated them like Roman Seutonius Paulinus did with his legions on the island
of Anglesey(Mona) 60 AD followed by Agricola in 77 AD...
(source; Roman historian Tacitus)..Also under the rule of
Tiberius,(14-37 AD) Rome did away with Druids in Roman
provinces of Gaul.(source; Pliny).
Plato argues that Democracy turns into fascism.
Modern Christians basically quote this, as if Plato was some sort of prophet, lol.
I think modern monuments should reflect modern values. Some monuments should be replaced and updated from time to time.
I have sympathy for this. We kept some Soviet monuments up in Latvia. One of the points of the Russians leaving in the 90s, was free Latvia would still care for their monuments. After Russia invaded Ukraine (for the second time) we destroyed them and rightfully so.
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances, they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.” James Madison
59:00 Yeah and in effect some religious groups have pretty much become community organisations, rather than requiring a literal belief in God. Unitarians as Carrier says is a good example, many Jews don´t see a literal belief in God as a requirement, you just need to keep the rituals and Modern Anglicanism in the UK could evolve that way.
Indeed, I am culturally quite Catholic, I like Catholic buildings and I like church music and if a literal belief in God stopped being necessary to be a member and they reformed the institution to make it less corrupt, I might go.
For me they'd have to make the mass significantly less boring and eliminate all the "Catholic guilt" bull. I feel like I'd rather get my teeth drilled, at least something would be happening. Of course if they eliminated the mind-numbing parts and the parts where you have to claim to be a wretched sinner, there wouldn't be anything left.
@@travis1240 regular Catholic mass in church is boring but choral masses are quite impressive. Motzart wrote quite a few
@@Minimmalmythicist fair. That I can abide.
imagine an america that had an understanding of what carrier talks about here !
a very different country that would far better realise its potential
Augustus didn't destroy de Republic he just ended what others started. The key moment was the Marian reforms of the army effectively making them a force of mercenarys highly professionalized so then they stared to be used by very ritch people and victorious and ambitious generals/politicians (Imperator). The military carrier was as susseful as the military triumphs in lhe last part of the Republic, so does the civil wars. In fact the gravedigger of the Republic was Julius Caesar the nephew of Marius. He totally devaluated the Senate as an aristocratic most important institution of the Republic. He subverted the Roman law by proclaiming himself perpetual dictator. The institution of the dictatorship was only to use during a limited amount of time in case of existential threats to the state or the society and ad a very and well defined scope based on the tenet: "necessitas non habet legem"(the violation of a law may be excused by necessity).
So who was the first proto-emperor in fact was Julius Caesar up to 27 b.C when Octavius Augustus(Caesar's grandnephew) that proclaimed himself "dominus et deos". But at first he pretended that we want to restore the Republic and gradually e reinforced is personal power thus founding the Roman Empire.
One thing I would somewhat disagree with Carrier on is that the Romans brutally persecuted Magicians, indeed, they really introduced the "magic" versus "religion" tradition which didn´t exist in Egpyitan religion.
That might be seen as a civil order crime in all fairness, to counter my view there. It may be that the authorities persecuted magicians because they´d help people curse others and spread rivalries etc.
Ronald Hutton´s talk on this subject at Gresham college is worth checking out.
Thanks, will check it out!
44:00 Iraq was about oil for sure.
52:15 Why does Carrier here struggle to make the parallel explicit? He says exactly what it is the Roman “reform” sought to change and its motives - but doesn’t do the same to the modern parallel, but rather pauses & uses broad language that doesn’t elucidate anything. Like so:
Rome: in changing the statute, govt is admitting that women are actually equal.
GOP/P.2025: “…manipulate society in particular ways, and in doing so we’re kind of admitting, uh, that, what - what our real values are, what we really think about things - but we’re sort of gonna put this veneer underneath it of, of this sort of rationalization of why we’re doing it, that isn’t really the reason that we’re doing it…” “…march toward fascism…”
I guess if I read the document myself I might zero-in on what he’s dancing around? But this is unusual for Carrier. If he sets out to draw a specific parallel he usually actually SAYS what he’s arguing & how it follows from the lead-up.
Yeah, to be fair to him it was a broad question about proj 2025, a gigantic document. But I imagine he was speaking about the dangers of Christian theocracy. It is also on the back of the Kagan book we discussed (Rebellion), a conservative who is worried about the posible directions of the Trump campaign.