An Easter Chat with Richard Carrier
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- Опубликовано: 6 апр 2023
- Here, I have a chat about Easter with Richard Carrier.
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I can listen to Richard anytime. No fluff.
Jonathan, that was great! I hope that this will be the first of many conversations with Richard.
Thanks both for doing this. I much enjoyed and learned from this conversation.
What a great conversation! thanks gentlemen!
Great content. I could listen to you both all day. Many thanks :)
yes, yes, yes.
Very interesting and insightful conversation!
Awesome informative episode and commentary.
That conversation between you two was SO interesting...
It has literally started a fire in my brain. I'm all abuzz. ( this is a good thing, I enjoy the feeling )
Thankyou... This has opened my mind in so many directions - I can't quite find the words to describe how much I loved what and how you guys were discussing.
Have to go and find out the meanings of historicity.(..ism?) and mythicist...(?) and then I'll think some more about this.
I'm very much looking forward to your new book in May, Jonathan.
Having lived with an astronomer (and Quaker !?! Many long discussions there) and myself being very interested in the space, the Universe, the question of life out there... the impacts and consequences on us humans - if we ever find it or they find us ! All this just downright fascinates me.
And because I like you, what you think AND how you share it... (So many ways, so many subjects) .... I can't wait to see what you and Aaron have written for us all.
Please thank Richard for the fascinating talk he had with you.
Much love from Australia xx
Oh good grief, you like all the people I do, been following Richard for nyears. Probably not a coincidence, probably inevitable, probably an algorithm..
I enjoyed this conversation so much, love you both!! I really enjoyed Carrier’s course, as well; he’s a great teacher. I hope you talk again soon, cheers!!
Thanks so much Anna - great fedeback!
You and Richard both have impressive minds Jonathan.....are u a historicist?
Love from Ireland 🍀
Carrier is a beast...
With regard to the discussion around 1:50, the question about alien life forms on other planets caused a serious stir among astronomers and theologians in the late 1700s. I highly recommend "The Age of Wonder: How the Romantic Generation Discovered the Beauty and Terror of Science" by Richard Holmes. In particular, check out the quotes from John Adams on pages 166-167 (in the hardcover edition). Great stuff!
This is exactly why I like and respect Richard. He actually admits when he is incorrect or possibly might be or doesn't actually know in the first place. A great quality for a truth seeker to have if you ask me.
He is never going to admit that he is wrong. He will continue to sprew out things that are not true.
@@alvindaughtry2168 Like what for instance? Be specific.Give me an example of something he is wrong about as well as something he spews out that is not true.
Dr. Carrier: "I'm think I'm just getting old." Young man, you haven't seen anything yet. Just wait around for a while.
He might be older than you!
@@dayofthejackyl No, he's not (I checked), but he is older than I thought. He aged quite gracefully - I initially pegged him considerably younger than he is. Turns out I'm only seven years older.
For anyone else looking, the scholar Carrier mentions around 37:10 is Caroline Bynum, for her book 'The Resurrection of the Body in Western Christianity, 200-1336'. When Carrier said 'up to' I hoped this meant 'from the earliest to the 200s' but it seems it's the other way around. Still, all of Bynum's work seems fascinating so I'm happy with the recommendation and of course the Christian rhetoric in that period is absolutely part of the development of the Christianities we know today.
Danke!
Can't believe I selected the wrong mic. Sorry about my tinny audio. Thank you to all contributors!
I didn't notice. The majority of your audience will be listening on a fairly basic audio solution themselves anywho. No feed stutters or drop outs; sufficient bandwidth and no buffering; no smeared visuals. Dinna fash, more than good enough even if it was the wrong mike.
@@stevewatson6839 oh Steve. I haven't heard dinna fash since my Dad died. Make me smile and cry at the same time.
Thankyou.
(& you're right about JP's mic...no problem my end either)
It was sharp and clear, so no problem at all.
@@smith...1 They live on in our memories. One of the ways my sisters and I keep my parents in mind is to keep their quirky sayings going ourselves.
One of the things that really bugs me about the notion of a historical Jesus is this seemingly unquestioned tacked-on idea of a fixed 12-man road crew, whose membership has to be gained via an official vote, as the gospels state they do after Judas gets booted, in order to restore the number.
The number obviously comes from the 12 tribes. And I think Mark conflates some post-Jesus Jerusalem council as mentioned in Paul into his merry holy "jury" or team.
I often hear someone who will say "well, I just think there was a guy . . ." i.e., a wandering preacher who got himself killed by getting into trouble with the local authorities. But somehow, it seems to me this idea gets expanded without questioning with inclusion of a neatly packed holy "jury." (It is the idea of a a fixed number that bothers me, not that a wandering preacher would have gather groupies who came and went."
Why wouldn't a Mary Magdalene or a Lazarus be considered an official disciple? Would they or any other devoted groupie be told "you can tag along, listen to everything Jesus says, help pass around the collection plate or distribute the loaves and fishes, but until there is a vacancy in the designated team, you don't really count."
If there really was a John the Baptist, it would not be surprising if he had some followers but he didn't seem to need a tidy band of followers.
This official team concept separates Jesus from what would seem to be a natural norm. A Jesus shorn of this could mean Mark drew upon a number of living, dead, and mythological sources to flesh out the details of his Jesus. As Dr. Carrier says, "Jesus" could be a title like "christ" and "messiah" is, and several people could preach under this name.
Yes! A long time ago, looking at lists of failed messiahs, I started to wonder if Jesus was a mantle. Or even an epithet for failed, would-be messiahs. Then Paul comes along and says, "Hey, your savior died? Well let me tell you about a Jesus who was foretold to die...and rise again."
Xtians stitch Isaiah with Habbakuk. WLC stiches Habermas with Kramer. The more things change...
Richard fuckin Carrier!!
He won't last. None of them do. Going against God is temporary. God wins in the end. Carrier will disappear. It's over for him.
Lol im no polymath but i hv th same experience. Need prompt and so many thoughts at once. I usually end up saying zero. Once a doctor thought id mania but all i was trying to do was tell them as much as possible in 6 mins to give a medical history. It was a disaster 😂
They dont believe that i deserve the headaches
4:20 this is such a good mindset I think a lot of well read people should keep in mind. Do you actually know this subject well? Could you actually give a short 10 min talk on this stuff or are you just repeating a few books you've read?! Great thing to keep in mind.
I faced extreme hatred toward white man here in Hawaii if I was to be concerned about it and call it horrible and not realize that we all hate each other I would have left 30 years ago
*Now we know slavery is bad*
Empathy is a rare quality in the Hebrew Bible, so I wouldn’t expect the Israelites to think slavery was bad because they had experienced it.
… similarly to how there are US citizens promoting fascism even tho their grandparents fought against it
(altho primarily as a threat to US Imperialism rather than on moral grounds)
… or people promoting theocracy or similar dictatorships, even tho their party had recently claimed they were against “big government”.
The debate on History Valley was hysterical Neal’s guest and Richard’s opponent lost his shit. Funny as. Then Neal (gnostic informant) did a ridiculous hit piece on Carrier. It was pandemonium.
Doing that hit piece on Carrier was an idiotic move.
Didache: Διδαχη (teaching.) Χη is read as "Hi" . Even di is not pronounced as dee but the (as in article). So I would write it Theethahi, if I could.
I can't find any video or article about Dr. Carrier's "Diminishing Facts" speech for a "Global Center for the Study of Religion." I think he must have meant GCRR, the Global Center for Religious Research. Their website had a link to a 2021 conference speech on Bayesian reasoning behind a pay wall. Does anyone know if that's what he meant? Doesn't seem that recent to me, and doesn't seem like a match on the topic.
With regard to the discussion around 1:05, allow me to "testify" that after being raised fundamentalist and getting a BA (in Latin and Greek!) from a good Christian liberal arts college (Calvin), the mental, moral, and ethical contortions necessary to remain a believer AND a progressive, conscientious, thinking person caused me to abandon Christianity. And, yes, by the way, religious trauma is real.
New Sub
If someone thought "the plebs won't get Angel Jesus v Satan in space, so we'll invent a corporeal Jesus" it was marketing genius.
Perhaps a solution to the Fermi Paradox is that our world was first, and after that, God learned not to plant the tree of Knowledge in the Gardens of Eden of other worlds. So we're quarantined from the rest of the universe.😋
We’ll find them and teach them the truth. New snakes in the garden and we’ll bring our own trees.
Wow you sound alot older now dude
Midi-Clorian deniers!
Calling the New Testament slimy and shady... yep.
Dr.Carrier is one of my absolute favorites, but no way will I support huckster Myth.V or his loser buddy Gnostic Inf.
30:35 Re Matthew and Luke include baptism of Jesus, John does not. I disagree with Richard. He argues it was not embarrassing so they included it. I think it WAS embarrassing, but well known that it actually happened and in Mark had to be explained/made part of the story. I think John the baptist was much better known than Jesus at the time. I think this IS an area which makes us think Jesus was a historical figure. Otherwise, why include it? John writing much later doesn't think need to mention it, perhaps potential concerns over this have moved on. Let's not bring it up .... OR Mark theologically makes Jesus divine through baptism, ie a created divine being. Matthew makes him divine in the womb. John makes him divine before the creation of the world...
Slavery wasn’t (edit) *portrayed as bad* even in Egypt, according to Genesis and Exodus - it was Yahweh’s way of glorifying himself
You have to let your guest talk nobody wants to hear you yap
I always thought there was something fishy about yum kipper
👻 🪦 🪨 Matthew’s Jesus apparently left the tomb *thru the stone:* Matthew 28:2-6.
In other gospels, they think Jesus is not there because the *stone had been rolled away.*
Good point, but then why did Matthew need the angel and the angel's rolling away the stone? He's just established that Jesus's resurrection body could pass through solid rock. Thus, the stone that sealed the tomb was never an impediment to Jesus leaving the tomb...
@@stephenbastasch7893 Yes. It’s not necessarily logically consistent throughout.
In Matt 28:17 the disciples see Jesus. There is no indication of any special body.
@@scienceexplains302 Matthean inconsistency - who would'a guessed??
;)