"If you could screw up God's plan, you would." I don't agree with some parts of Calvinism, but that is one of the most based statements on humanity that can be made.
-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4
Genuinely disgusting theology coming from supposed Christians The Holy Spirit will tell you what the truth is. Calvinism comes from thinking way too hard about how to turn Christianity into an exclusive elite club.
@@theankotze1292 Yeah, the garbage theology that almost all Europe and America held during the reformation and until the last 200 years and that Athanasius, Augustine, Aquinas and a lot of important theologions much more intelligent and devoted than you and your pastor/priest believed.
@@pedroguimaraes6094 so Redeemed Zoomer is wrong? You guys do hold to the belief that only Calvinists are saved? That’s all I needed to hear. Have the day you deserve.
"The 👑GREATEST Man in HISTORY" had no servants, yet they called Him Master. Had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. Had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He did not live in a castle, yet they called Him Lord, He ruled no nations, yet they called Him King, He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today! "His name is Jesus❤"
-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4
You don’t reject predestination brother. You and myself reject the presupposed definition of it. The Bible teaches predestination, and it’s a great doctrine concerning eternal security.
@@cesarvasquez9839which Jesus are you following??? Islamic Jesus??? ITS LITERALLY EVERYWHERE IN THE GOSPEL 😂 John 6:44 (LITV) No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. John 15:16 (LITV) You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you. John 6:37 (LITV) All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out. Mark 13:20 (LITV) And if the Lord had not shortened the days, not any flesh would be saved; but because of the elect whom He chose, He has shortened the days. John 17:2 (LITV) as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life. Matthew 10:29 (LITV) Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? Yet not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father. I can give you many more especially from the teaching of apostles and OT. Predestination is 100% Biblical
@@cesarvasquez9839if you don’t believe in predestined, you would have to believe God is not all knowing, and that’s heretical. Ephesians 1:4 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love”
@@BasiliscBaz ok, well your comment is basically blaming God for having bad/incorrect theology you think you're being funny by saying that when in fact it's blasphemy YOU are the reason you have bad theology, God is not to blame
@@tomtemple69ok so God is the type of God who would save random people then make sure other people will not have faith and throws them into hell. Doesn't sound like the omnibenevolent God I knew. calvinism is basically unconditional favoritism
That’s like saying “I didn’t choose to be a person who would one day murder, I can’t be he’d accountable!” Riding off of that logic, you can’t blame God if he sends you to hell because he didn’t choose to be a perfect and sovereign Lord.
@@charles21137 If you, in fact, had literally no control over murdering somebody, then the sense of the first person goes away completely. It’s an illusion. There’s no “you” doing it, just a mechanistic organism. There’s no “you” to be held accountable. “You” didn’t do anything. You just fell in line for what was necessarily doing to happen. And just because “you” have proximate feelings about an action doesn’t change that fact. Would you accept or reject the notion that one cannot be held to account for something that they have, literally speaking, no control over?
This comes from everyone interpreting the Bible, quoted passages mean that God chose everyone in Christ but everyone is free to reject the calling. Parable of the Talents said by Jesus himself tells us our free will is paramount
"This comes from everyone interpreting the Bible" as opposed to the one person whom you happen to agree with. Who coincidentally is the only one who should be allowed to interpret the Bible.
You cannot reject the calling. If you could, you’d have power over Gods will. No one has that. ”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“ Romans 9:15-24 ESV bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV
@@scorpionjaxxer339 Slow down. Take a deep breath. Now, actually read the scripture I sent; pray about it, read it again, and then pray some more. You’ll be fine.
How can you say that God chooses who will be saved? Then why evangelise? I agree that God is the one that saves, we don't do that ourselves, only through his grace, but I have to make that choice for myself if I want to reject or accept Jesus.
“How can you say that God chooses who will be saved?” Because Ephesians 1:4 says that God “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.” Also because God is sovereign. “Then why evangelise?” Because, while God is ultimately sovereign, he often works in and through secondary causes. As a biblical example, Joseph’s brothers meant their actions against Joseph for evil, but God worked them for good.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Before Abraham was, He was. He gave you the slightest bit of power that trembles when compared to His. You cannot reject Him.
@@MSKofAlexandria Bfr Abe was, He is, God is timeless and unchanging. Both Old and New Testament are full of people rejecting God. Your view is that God created some people just for him to damn them to eternal suffering, contradicts whole bunch of direct quotes of Jesus and you can forget benevolent God and objective morality with that stance
Yep, and this is where I part ways with Reformed theology. Love it a lot and I agree with a good chunk of it, but I simply cant look at calvinism and say its an intellectually honest view of the scriptures. Either way though, I love all of my brothers in christ and wish everyone Godspeed! This series has been epic Zoomer, your channel is such a blessing! Keep up the good work and God bless!
For me it is simply impossible to read the scriptures and not see the complete sovereignty of God from beggining to end and to read Romans and not see the Apostle Paul speaking clearly about predestination. It's a lot of desire not to want to believe in predestination
@@pedroguimaraes6094 Not at all, but I wont get into the nitty grittys and argue lol. Romans 9 is talking about God electing the Nation of Israel and how no one can question his decisions. because he is God. It is not talking about salvation however, and there are many times that the Lord says he wants all to repent and come to him, which would not make sense if he was the one choosing. Now of course, he did technically choose who will be saved when he elected to create this universe, but he knew that it would only be the people who heard his gospel and came to him. In fact, I believe God is more sovereign than calvinists do, because I believe that God can get his will done through our free will. Now. Again, I love you brother and I dont wanna start quoting scripture and get in a huge discussion with you over secondary topics. I hope you have a blessed day!
@@santiboy1127 I completely disagree with your exegesis of Romans lol. But as you said, this is an impossible discussion to resolve here, so I'm just going to make a small correction to the end of your comment. We believe that God is Sovereign and that human beings make their decisions freely (they just can't choose God). This is what the Wesminster Confession o Faith says in its chapter 3: "1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c" Providence means that everything that happened was preordained by God according to his will, but God did so using the free actions of his creatures. One example that illustrates it is what Apostle Peter's said in Acts 22: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." - God planned the crucifixion of Christ and preordained it to happen since the beginning, but God did not force the will of men to crucify Christ and they were harshly held responsible by Peter. So, having clarified this and undoing the strawman that is commonly said, the problem that Arminians and other Christians who believe in free will have with us is simply about God's Sovereignty in election, it is something very specific tbh. They believe that there is some human participation/cooperation and we do not.
God is omnibenevolent, so He doesn't love anyone less. It's in His will for everyone to be saved, so He chooses everyone. We have the option to then choose or to not choose God. Our free will is the only area in which God limited His sovereignty
@@shleepz Some argue the points about free will and "choice hell" (vs punishment hell). Regarding free will, you can't have a genuine relationship with a robot, or someone who's forced to do X. Choice hell is the idea that people who don't try to be Christ-like are incabable of experiencing Heaven because it's so contrary to their nature, like in C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" (when the treacherous dwarves are in Aslan's country but they don't see/hear/smell the beauty around them and they can't enjoy it)
@PsycheReveals God chose Israelites, Abram, out of the nations. No one has a problem with this. Suddenly when God is consistent and does the same thing in modern times everyone throws a fit
@@shleepzCreating mankind Good and them descending into wickedness doesn't sound all powerful either. I have the power to stop my dog from barking. I can take its life whenever I want. Having all the power doesn't mean using all the power. Sometimes you restrain yourself, especially when it comes to the things you love.
Imagine if George Lucas wrote himself into the story to tell the emperor, “I wrote you to be evil. Your fate is to be thrown down into the core of the Death Star and exploded to death and there’s nothing you can do about it because that’s how I wrote the story.” Would that have made the story better?
The Luke Skywalker analogy seems like a bad one because Luke doesn’t actually have free will. What Luke does is determined by what George Lucas wrote, if Luke wanted to quit his training and go work at a bar that’s not an option…If we are set on a script we cannot override the script, the same way a robot cannot override what it’s creator designed it to do. Am I missing something here?
@@disguisedcentennial835Can you explain how a character who’s actions are predetermined by a script is different from a robot who’s actions are predetermined by it’s programming?
I was thinking the same thing, i am surprised he managed to record, edit and upload that clip without seeing how brain numbingly stupid it was to say a fictional character who's every action is controlled to the finest detail by the author has free will.
@@tomtemple69it might as well be because in islam god also choses who he saves and the rest of us are wasting our time. Calvinism is silly imagine not being able to say god loves you ; the best u can do is he might love you
smh, all those heretic theologians ruining the church (Clement, Origen, Augustine, Aquinas, Wycliffe, Staupitz, Calvin, Zwingli, Anselm, Ursinus, Bunyan, Knox, Edwards, Owen, Spurgeon, Warfield, Bavinck, Cranmer, Vos, Machen, nearly all the puritans, and so many thousands more. Not to mention the strongest proponents of this theology: Moses, the prophets, Paul, John, and Christ). Without these "heretics," we wouldn't have the church at all. You can disagree with them, but saying their doctrine is "anti-Christian" is simply ignorant.
@@SilentEcho4178 sure, but the idea that God being sovereign means he has to control every outcome is actually a really bad way of understanding sovereignty. Ironically if God is unable to grant his creation any kind of agency then he isn’t actually sovereign.
@@SilentEcho4178 the fact Calvinists literally use the same argument as the Mormons is all the more evidence of Satanic influence. “Erm, but the words are in the Bible.” My brother in Christ, your _definitions_ of them _aren’t._ No Arminian is against predestination and election; we are against _your_ “predestination” and _your_ “election.”
@@tomtemple69 The Lutheran position is that the finite mind cannot understand the infinite. Much like no one can fully understand the Trinity, no mortal man can fully understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and our free will.
Seriously, did no one read the Parable of the Sower? Jesus even explained that this is exactly what he was talking about. The seeds are sown everywhere, but it doesn't always take root.
This was the topic I’ve struggled most with as a Christian, but now I understand: God ultimately knows whether or not we will be saved since he knows the future, but it’s still up to our free will. Even though he knows the future, he didn’t decide who gets saved, we decide.
Nothing can thwart God's love for us, not even ourselves. Predestination is why I can say I am not save by my own works by solely by the works of Christ Jesus. Soli Gloria Deo!
"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10
@@Ezk47 Everyone that believes in original sin also believes that they require salvation just to avoid hell... hell is the destination, salvation is exactly what it sounds like. When Jesus tells the thief on the cross that they will be together in paradise... he doesn't say "if"
@@TroublechutorOf course he didnt say "IF" the thief was on a cross aswell. There was nothing he could do. But that verse doesn't explain the predestination doctrine. It shows that Christ can forgive the sin of man even on the cross because He is God.
@@Ezk47 So the thief could have rejected salvation after Jesus told him he was bound for paradise with him? The point is that Jesus didn't say to the thief "we're going to be in paradise together IF you don't (insert bad thing here)" He stated a fact of what the future that didn't have conditions, which doesn't allow for the possibility that it won't be true. Look at it another way, Jesus told Peter that he'd reject him 3 times before the rooster crowed. Lucky guess?
Mr. Zoomer, I know you don’t know who I am, but I just want to thank you. Your video on the books of the Bible on May 13th is what brought be back to Christ. Without you, I would be so stressed, melancholy, and a worse person if I didn’t know Christ (although I do now think that God used you as an instrument of bringing me back to him.) So, thank you very much. Keep doing this work for the world. Have a good day.
The key to understanding predestination in the Ephesian passage is to recognize the super important modifying phrase "in him" -used in Ephesians over ten times. What was predestined therefore was not individuals to salvation but the 'vehicle' for that salvation, which is Christ. (Which the video gets right) Whoever would humble themselves and get in the vehicle (i.e., respond to the Gospel) will be saved. God predestined a 'vehicle' to leave the 'station', and it's guaranteed (predestined) to reach its 'destination'; and anyone who responds to God's invitation and gets on it will be saved. Those who refuse to get on will be lost. God predestined these as the available choices, but he didn't predestine which choice you will make. That is the fatal mistake Calvinism makes in their understanding of predestination. Contrary to their system, the offer to be saved is clearly open to all according to the Bible (which the video incorrectly disagrees with). The Roman's passage on predestination is not talking about individual predestination either, but rather, that all those who would be saved are "predestined to be conformed to the image of his son...", i.e., sanctified. In other words, God's purpose for all who come into the 'vehicle' (Christ) is that they become like Jesus in every way, i.e., in all their character. May God bless our Calvinist brothers and sisters, our contentions are not with each other, but with false doctrine that seeps into the church. "Doctrines of demons" as Paul says, that work to cause division in the body, and distraction that hinders the work of the Gospel and diminishes our view of God's love and grace. None of these teachings existed in the church before Augustine. It is very significant that none, literally zero, of the early church fathers, the men who led the church after the Apostles for almost 400 years, taught or understood election and predestination this way. Augustine was formerly a Manichean in his philosophy and that heavily influenced his understanding of predestination. Namely, it caused him to have a gnostic & deterministic view of all things. Scholar Dr. Ken Wilson has done some great historical work on that regarding those documented gnostic influences on Augustine -please read him. Calvin just picked up where Augustine left off and ran with it. By the way, the video is mistaken in saying Aquinas held these same views, his views on election and predestination were very different from Augustine. Calvinism contradicts scripture which says God loves and wants all to be saved, and that he shows no partiality, nor is he pleased with the destruction of the wicked. (Ezekiel chs. 18 and also 33, among many other passages). Calvinism distorts God's character, and his will for all peoples. I believe there are many sincere and God-loving Calvinists, but this part of their theology is badly mistaken. God loves them, and they'll be saved if they believe, but this heretical teching will burn up on judgment day.
I don't know you did alot of work to reexplain Ephesians in a sorta skew way. It would be simple to read that "in him" people have been predestined for salvation. See how easy that was?
I've been doing a deep dive on election and predestination and have reached similar conclusions. For those interested, William W. Klein's book "The New Chosen People: A Corporate View of Election" is both detailed and scholarly and goes through almost all the relevant texts dealing with election, predestination, etc. in the NT. I found it very helpful and it gave me a better understanding of Jewish and early Christian thought on these topics.
@@torshavnnewellCorporate refers to a category of people in this context. The closest analogy I can think of is the concept of sets within mathematics. In math, a set is a collection of elements. Sets and elements are independent entities, since sets can be empty (composed of no elements). A set is analogous to a corporate body of believers (or in other terminology, the elect), and an element is analogous to an individual believer (someone who is among the elect). This idea tracks well with the concept of Israel's election in the OT. Israel is selected as a people, as a corporate entity, and is given the task to be the light of the world and proclaim the truth of God. Membership to Israel, the people of God, is determined by adherence to the Law, ancestry, and for males, circumcision. In the NT, Paul continues with this concept of corporate identity in his epistles. In most notably Romans, Paul explains that the Law and circumcision are insufficient to be considered part of the people of God. No one in Israel is without sin despite having the Law. Furthermore some Gentiles do what is required of the Law despite not having it and not being circumcised. Paul explains that Jesus accomplishes what Israel has not done and indeed could not do, He fulfills the Law, and He condemns sin and defeats death through His crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Through faith in Jesus, not through the Law and circumcision, we can be considered part of the people of God, part of the new Israel, the elect. This is accessible to both Jews and Gentiles alike. As a final remark, corporate election does not refer to the idea that salvation somehow depends on the actions of or is through group members. This is not biblical and is heretical.
Christ died for all clearly with the divine understanding that the solid minority of people would actually accept that free gift of salvation. He technically died for the elect. John 3:16 clarifies that well: "That whosoever believes." Everyone emphasizes the "whosoever", while it's the "believes" element of that verse that's critical to the Calvinist perspective. It's the qualification for salvation.
God is in control. He is the creator. What more is there to say. Thank God He is in control of my life. What power do I have to decide my own destination? We are all sinners and any decision I make would come from a sinful heart.
« So God create you as the vilain. And you can’t do shit to change that. And he will torture you for eternity for being the vilain. But he loves you. Just a little less » Yeah, you know what? I’ll go check lutherianism.
So, you're a villain? Of course not. But, are you going to argue that the fiends running the nations into the ground with their glass empires of greed and power are not villains? That God does not love them less because he created them to usher in the End of Days?
He created Adam to fail too according to Calvin. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
@@TemperedMedia Maybe i’m the vilain, i don’t know. It’s litteraly stated in the video above. But what i am is not the point here. Let’s take some of…not very nice people. Pol Pot, to take an extreme. If God created him, refused to save him, and decide to torture him for eternity, do you see it as love ? Because if you consider it as a sign of a fatherly love, you grew up in a pretty messed up family.
@@azers8298 "Refuse" insinuates Pol Pot wanted to be saved in the first place. If you ask any atheist how they would feel about spending all eternity worshipping Christ, they will say it sounds awful. Ultimately, whether or not you are the villain *is* the point. It's the reason for the church, regardless of whether or not a Calvinist or Arminian or non-denominational chooses to accept the mission. It's always been my passion to want to help people understand what they believe and actively choose to pursue the path they are on, because God put us all on our paths for a reason. He is ultimately in control of this path, and no matter my flailing, I cannot alter it. Doctrine is an important part of a believer's life, as they help make clear definitions for the substance of their faith. Believers ought to want to explore the heights and depths of their worldview and lay the foundations of their faith. It helps them endure the rigors of life; an unshakeable faith is of utmost importance. A believer with firm doctrine is unable to be deceived by Lucifer, whose ultimate goal is to scatter and assail the faith of the elect. However, doctrine is nothing without action (see: the book of James). So, whatever it is you believe, make it certain and act on it. Atheists are capable of doing as much, to their demise...
This has always struck me as a weird argument that you just need to step back from to understand. God is outside time, knowing the end from the beginning and how things will ultimately turn out doesn't mean He caused the thing. Due respect, but I think believers in predestination boils down to a poor understanding of God's relationship with time
God knows how everything will turn out... Good. Does God have a choice in what he does or doesn't do in time? If yes, does he know what the consequences of his actions will be in time? If yes then you are stuck with the reality that every action in the timeline was caused by God in someway.
@@hyperteleXii nope, God cannot love less or more, He loves infinitely and perfectly do you love your friends in the same way as your spouse the same way as your family the same as your church?
Where's the connection in your mind between infinity and unconditional? If you had infinite money, you still wouldn't give any to murderers, would you? Sin comes in different qualities and quantities. A murderer sins more than a drug addict. The more you sin, the less of God's love you receive. My personal understanding is that this isn't so much a judgement from God to be undeserving, but simply the natural/divine consequence of choosing to actively sin. That is, the more and worse you sin, the further *from* God's infinite love you position yourself, thus receiving less. Similar to how we might say that the Sun's energy is practically unlimited, but if you choose to go under shade, you'll naturally receive less of it by your own free will to seek shade. @@mysteryman8122
To Calvinists: How do you know you are elect? 2 Cor. 4:4 talks about Satan blinding the minds of unbelievers so they will not see the light of the Gospel. Why would Satan need to blind those who are spiritually blind already? Is this a double blinding? Why would God command all men to repent (Acts 17:30) if they can't unless God aids them by granting regeneration? Why do so many Calvinists struggle with assurance? If God only saves some(the elect) isn't election what truly saves and not the Gospel and Christ's work on the cross? Seems like the Gospel and Christ's work on the cross is just a means to the end of election. Why is there not one bible verse that explicitly states that regeneration precedes faith? Why does Ephesians 1:13 tell us that we hear and believe before we are sealed with the Holy Spirit? If God tells us that his nature is that he cannot lie, then why would it appear he has a revealed will in Scripture (all can come: Jesus will draw all men to Himself; whosoever believes) but He has this secret will that only the elect can come?
1. We know that whoever believes in Christ will be saved, therefore if you believe, you are elect. "The elect" is another way of saying "the faithful." 2. Satan blinds the minds of everyone because everyone has a sinful nature. God reveals himself to the covenant people and shows them grace out of his love. 3. God still wants everyone to repent because he is just. God condemns the faithless not because he did not elect them for salvation, but because they are sinners and deserve nothing more than his wrath. 4. Because a lot of Calvinists today have moved away from their traditional sacramentology, which was one way of having assurance of your salvation. If you are part of the visible Church and partake in the visible sacraments in faith, you are in the invisible Church and receive the invisible sacrament - the thing signified - through the Holy Spirit. 5. The election refers to whom God chooses to give his grace to. His grace in the atonement has appeared to all, but it will not apply to all. The election determines who will believe in Christ, and the actual agent of salvation is Christ himself. 6. 1 Corinthians 12:3 ESV, "Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit." 7. The verse says, according to the ESV, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." It says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe, not a moment afterward. 8. That is not how God's will works. God can desire something to happen, but allow something else to happen. He doesn't want people to end up in hell but allows for it for an unknown reason. I assume you're referring to John 12:32, which says "And I, when I am lifted up, will draw all people to myself." This seems to be in tandem with John 6:44, which says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day." However, this all comes to a head with John 6:37, which says "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." This seems to be a solid case against Calvinism right? You cannot come without God drawing you, all are drawn in the death and resurrection of Christ. However, that last verse pokes a hole in the argument. It says all that the Father gives to the Son will come to him, and will never be cast out. This shows that John 12:32 cannot be talking about God drawing you to convert to Christ, because otherwise, all would be saved, and eternally secure because they will never be cast out, which is not how it works. In truth, John 12:32 is about something else entirely: the reach of the gospel. The gospel is so widespread and available that it is very rare to find a single person who does not know who Jesus is, and the work he did on the cross. God, through the Church, draws almost all people to know who Jesus the Son is. The drawing in John 12 cannot be the same as the drawing of John 6, even though the same word is used in the Greek. Tangent aside, God makes the elect come because he simply loves them, and leaves the non-elect in their sins. Nobody deserves salvation, so it's entirely fair for God to give it to whoever he wants, whether it be nobody, one person, twelve people, sixty-two people, or two billion people. He doesn't have to show grace to everyone just because he is loving. The fact that he shows grace to anyone at all shows just how loving God really is.
I think we're reading Ephesians differently. Verse 4 especially. Also there's no "secret will"... only that God knows who is saved, and they will come. Luke 15: 1-7 Jesus has to go and retrieve his lost sheep, they don't stay lost, and they can't resist him. As for the free will stuff, Jesus tells Peter he'll reject him 3 times before the rooster crows... just a lucky guess?
But, as the video explains, that isn’t what it is. God chooses people in Christ by His own determination. Not based on “what will happen” or what people do.
I don't think you understood the video, then. Which is fair imo, because it's pretty heady to think upon. But mere foreknowledge of our choices makes us the ultimate authority of our lives, as God chose to respond to our free will, rather than His will being imposed upon us.
@@troyhare6312 Does scripture define predestination as "God chooses before creation who's going to heaven and who's going to hell when they die?" No, it doesn't. St. Justin Martyr was the first Christian to talk about predestination after the writings of Paul and he talks about it as God's foreknowledge of our will. I think it's pretty safe to conclude that a second century Jewish Christian saint understood the context of the early scriptures and the faith taught by the apostles better than a 16th century French lawyer who was completely removed from all of it.
Don’t jump into presuppositions and in a set of propositions that fit your “liking”. God desires that you study, 2 Tim. 2:15, and show *yourself* approved unto Him. I recommend “Beyond The Fundamentals” here on RUclips to consider that this doctrine is not Biblical.
I am a Baptist. The thing I love the most about Presbyterians (Presbyter = elder) is that emphasis on the church structured operationally in a biblically sound way. The Bible is clear how churches operate by way of Elder and deacon and I think that is an issue big time in the American church. The elders are supposed to direct the operations. Nowadays pastors do everything it seems.
”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“ Romans 9:15-24 ESV bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV
@@GreenGoblin107 that verse cannot mean what you’re saying it means. In the context of Exodus 33:19, Moses freely asked God to go before him, then God replied he will, but because God chose to (and not to repay Moses for anything). It does indeed depend on God, because while we’ve reached our hand out, he’s under no innate obligation to take it. He put himself under an obligation by choice when he proclaimed all who reach their hand out will find it taken and themselves lifted up and away from the cliff.
@@SirMicahBrochhe did tho lol and his fan club today does too maybe not zoomer and his version of Calvinists but i seen multiple that flat out deny we have free will even tho the bible says the opposite
Amazing, just amazing. I love this channel, I am not a native English speaker so it is hard for me to understand some words, but just by listening and reading what little I understand I can understand everything because even though I don't understand English completely, I understand completely the message of God and that is all I need to understand what this channel of Sound Doctrine has to share from God.
Hi, I just wanted to let my comment here. I was on a group to study the bible and learn more about Jesus. I didn't know the person that leaded the group was a Calvinist, which at the beginning I had no issue at all. I have to admit the discipline on the bible and the way to pray that I learned on this group it was amazing. But honestly at the end it left me more confused and disappointed. He mentioned that what he believed was that the humans we are on a total depravation. The ones who will be saved are choose by God only, so basically what I understood is that my family and people I care for are doomed, there is no other way they are saved if God did not choose them, and he said that all what I can do is to pray for them and request God to have mercy. Another stuff that really shocked me was that he basically said everything that is not in the bible or does not comes from God is from the devil. Other things that also were mentioned by him is that we should not ask God for protection because that's an offense, if we have the HOLY SPIRIT on us we shouldn't worried about it therefore we shouldn't ask for it. Other stuff he mentioned is that God doesn't listen to the sinners only the ones who obey him and are under the grace. If a person reads the bible and does not convert into Christianity is a demon. And something that he told me personally is that I was chosed by God and if did not repent, deny myself and follow God right now. God literally will drag me back to him and it wouldn't be nice, literally I would be forced . Honestly this whole thing shocked me, brought me down and made me feel really bad about myself. I honestly thought on stopping and quitting, but I decided to continue looking and start to learn more about the bible and Jesus. There were a lot of things that really made me question about God, his love, his salvation and about the religion. He also gave us the advise go don't go to Catholic and other Christian churches that does not follow this kind of believes as they are not for God anymore and they became herectic. On a point I really thought it was more of a sect than a community for God. The other thing is that on this group they mixed a lot the conspiracy theories with the religion. I know not all the Calvinist are like this, but I don't know how this person arrived to all these conclusions. Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my personal experience.
@jackshadow325 No, it can lead to a nihilistic perception of reality... if misunderstood. I personally wouldn't identify as a calvinist, but double predestination is certainly biblical with a complete understanding of the scope of physical and spiritual reality as revealed through scripture and human observational experience. People who use calvinism as a justification for a nihilistic perspective don't understand that they are not equal with God. God's actions and human actions are compatible yet different... vastly categorically different. What particular issues do you have with Calvinism?
@@iamthasecond Calvinism is not biblical. It’s only when one reads the bible through a lens of extra-biblical philosophy that one comes to those conclusions. That’s what Augustine did, and Calvin after him. Listen to modern day Calvinists defend their position - their arguments are purely philosophical with sprinkles of bible passages to make it seem biblical.
@jackshadow325 Ok, but historical church figures aside, does double predestination defined as God electing certain people before time to spend eternity with him and also marking out certain people for eternal damnation accurately represent biblical theology? It seems to me that Ephesians 1, Romans 1, Romans 8, Romans 9, Jude, Proverbs 16, and Proverbs 20, along with pretty much the entire book of Job indicate God's sovereignty is so great that he controls every good and bad circumstance that occurs, and every person who does and doesn't spend eternity with him no?
Errrrr 🚫 first Timothy out of context. In context, it’s about praying even for the more fortunate of Christians and that God desires for all Christians to be saved.
So God want to save everyone but somehow He can't? Sorry bro, this is not the God of the Bible. Every time God is portrayed He is portrayed as being sovereign in every possible way and the apostles talked about His sovereignty in predestination so many times that is crazy.
@@pedroguimaraes6094god respect our free will loool it’s ironic a Calvinist thinks this dude you literally are the poster child of what atheists think Christians are according to you God literally didn’t give any human alive rn a fair chance since none of us were able to choose him in eden we are born sinful. Ur idea of god is the same an atheist has
I would argue Calvinism cannot be correct since the Bible on multiple occasions refutes the notion of Total Depravity. Jeremiah 18:1-10 being just one example. However, what I despise most about Calvinism is how it slanders the purely good nature of God. For instance, to say I am guilty because of Adam's sin is different than saying I acquire the consequences of his sin. If God held me guilty for what someone else did before I was born, while at the same time creating me in such a way that it was not in my power to reject sin and pick God, the act of God's creation would be one of evil and cruelty. Since God's grace is the only thing that can pull one from sin, if God creates creatures without sufficient grace, he would be acting more like the immoral pagan god Zeus, who could randomly cast lightning bolts on who he pleased. The true God is both completely good and just and should not be characterized as an evil tyrant.
Your thought that it slanders the perfect goodness of God is literally the same thing as was stated in Romans 9. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." And what was the response? "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." So you must reconcile that you are the pot that repliest AGAINST the Creator in Romans 9. "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" This is kind of humorous and sad that you are literally doing this and I bet you also even read Romans 9 which is just so interesting.
read roman’s 8-9 it reinforces total depravity so hard and it shows how biblical calvinism actually is ”For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.“ Romans 8:7-8 ESV
Job had his life destroyed BECAUSE he chose God. It was done to make a point. IIRC people died in the process... just to make a point about Job's choice. We benefit from this lesson at the great expense of Job, never-mind the people that died just to deepen his despair. I'm not sure if you would characterize that as "cruel" or not, but it would certainly feel cruel to Job. God did this, or he allowed it to be done. I don't know how to reconcile this against the idea that God does things we don't comprehend that seem cruel but have higher meaning or purpose. FWIW, Job did a lot of observing the "creator/created" dilemma he was in as well. Its possible to know that God's nature is purely good, and still not understand how these things we see as cruel could be allowed to happen. That's a path we all have to walk down at some point.
@@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459that's the point of the gospel. None of us can keep God's laws by ourselves. Our default supposition is to suppose that in our own strength we can meet God's laws but we can't keep God's laws and is futile to suppose we can. We need to be made new with a new heart to obey God but only God can do that. It's not something that anyone can contribute towards. The problem is that our default state is to try and please God by ourselves which put us under the law which leads to death.
I struggle to mentally accept predestination because of this. but if God has meticulously created every individual, knowing exactly what environment he will have them grow up in and with what personality. Knowing that because of a combination of circumstances and personality they will never get a chance to know God truly. How is this person any different than someone being predestined to hell. I guess my opinion is free will isn’t really that free when our upbringing influences our thoughts and decisions and if God controls those factors isn’t he already creating people with no hope in choosing him?
Read Romans 9. It answers your exact question. "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
If you love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. Is it out of your control it’s simply your choice either you love The father with your whole heart soul and mind or you love the world and the things in it?
2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
'Free will' is NOT self-determination. It is the moral freedom to do that which one deems to be good or fulfilling in some respect. Self-determination to mean deciding your own 'fate' is completely alien to Christianity. It's a bad conflation that needs addressing.
1-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4
@a.39886 Your argument is valid but your initial premise is unsound. God's creative will is indeed free and it is precisely for that reason that God by necessity has created and sustains all things. For the purpose that his name is glorified to the end of the unity of the Godhead. The opposite is quite true, God would not be free if he couldn't seek that which would bring him glory. Your second premise is sound, no one forces God to create, nor can they, he does it out of his wisdom and sovereignty. Indeed he has created some for his name's sake as objects of his glory and others as objects for his wrath. This may make him seem to some as a self-absorbed narcissist, but it is far from that. It is so that we may enjoy him fully and share in the riches of his grace as all things are reconciled to him for his good purpose. Yes God is sovereign, but that has little to do with the retribution the angels have and will receive for their rebellion. They were fully aware of the ramifications that their actions would cause, but they still chose of their own free will to rebel against God. Unlike us, they do not second-guess, once they set out to do something, they are fully committed to it. They seek neither forgiveness nor redemption. Even if they did how can their sins be atoned for? God is just by nature, therefore he must punish sin. Angels are not generational like mankind is, each is its unique species. A mediator would therefore need to pay that debt over and over as many times as there are many angels. After all, if it's to be done for one angel, it is only just to do the same for all the others. This is all assuming that there is even a sufficient sacrifice that can be made, given that angels are immortal creatures, how would one made in their likeness make reparation for their sins? Remember the wages of sin is death.
1) God wasn`t forced to created he could chose to not create unless you are bounding his attribute of freedom to only create. 2) God know beforehand he created he will create something he doesn`t want (sin) and due to his will of creating that most mankind will be doomed to eternal suffering in hell because this bring glory to his name. 3) God wants that people to be in eternal pain in hell or he won`t create the ones that will end up in that place@@timothyeyo9245
So, God decided that the best way to show his glory is to create people that are destined to eternal suffering, for absolutely no other reason? Contrary to his benevolence, free grace towards humans, incarnation as Christ, and so many other things somehow don't prove. Hmm...
@heterian97 You make it seem like that is somehow unjustified. God is good and his ways are perfect, we sometimes don't understand that. Evil is necessary to glorify what is good. If there were no darkness, how then could the light be appreciated. Suffering and adversity refine virtue enabling growth. Some endure to the end by God's grace and others fall by the way. It is out of his benevolence in the first place that he offered up himself, but not everyone accepts this gift, those who do are enabled to do so FOR his glory.
The author analogy to describe God is EXACTLY how I've described predestination for years. I also find it fascinating to continue arguing against "predestination" as a basic theological tenet, when Paul uses the EXACT word to describe our adoption into Christ's kingdom (eph 1:5)
As a reformed baptist, this was a really good overview of predestination and a helpful tool for people who don't understand or who object and have misconceptions of what calvinists believe. Most people who are against predestination are ignorant that that word is in scripture and deals with the subject pretty intensely. I think I would be more of an infralapsarian but I heard Kieth Foskey say "I don't know and don't care" and I can heartily amen that. Some things aren't revealed to us finite mortal pea brains and thats OK.
Calvinism is the most hopeless anti-gospel on the face of the planet. "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10
Anytime I hear Calvinist make an honest claim like all we are characters in a book thats already been written like Zoomer used in this video, that we should be happy and find joy in that and try to paint that reality idea as beautiful and humbling is fascinating but in a sad way because makes God seem very weak and distant despite the attempt to articulate it otherwise. Especially the last couple of minutes. Edit* added clarification on my opinion.
Really i get the opposite feeling they come off as extremely un empathetic cool you’re happy god chose you. What about everyone else? This idea of non believers being bad guys is cartoonishly dumb
Calvin was more honest about it. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7
"What if it turns out that we are robots, after all? Clay fashioned into marvelous robots, rather than being left as mere clay? Should we complain to God about that? Or should we rather feel honored, that our bodies and minds are fashioned so completely to fulfill our assigned roles in God’s great drama? Some creatures are born as rabbits, some as cockroaches, some as bacteria. By comparison, would it not be a privilege to be born as an intelligent robot? Indeed, what remarkable robots we would be! Capable of love and intimacy with God, assigned to rule over all the creatures. Is it not a wonderful blessing of grace that, when we sinned in Adam, God did not simply discard us, as a potter might very well do with his clay, and as a robot-operator might well do with his machine, but sent his only Son to die for us? Risen with him to new life, believers enjoy unimaginably wonderful fellowship with him forever. As we meditate on these dignities and blessings, the image of the robot becomes less and less appropriate, not because God’s control over us appears less complete, but because one doesn’t treat robots with such love and honor." - John Frame, Systematic Theology pp1127-1128 The "robot" or "book character" analogies are not good analogies; our relationship with God is utterly unique. But it is better be a robot under God or a character in his book than autonomous outside of him. Our worth and dignity INCREASES as we are nearer and nearer to his will. Autonomy from God is distance from the only source of meaning, value, purpose, and dignity. From what does a desire to be autonomous proceed?
@@DrGero15 exactly! I added clarification in my first comment. It sounds like something terrible and horrible but we are trying to be convinced that it actually isn’t.
@@tannerfjeld1046 Ezekiel 18:20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Individualistic predestination is one of the worst ideas to survive the reformation. But I’ll still give you a thumbs up for not misrepresenting me us non-Calvinists. Few do these days. Thanks for being one of the “nice” Calvinists so that I can enjoy your other videos 😅.
This means you don’t believe that God loves everyone. This means the Jesus suffering on the cross is meaningless. This means life is pointless. This can’t be Christianity.
The opposite means Christ can die for someone and they still go to he'll, that's also meaningless. God generally loves his creation but he specifically loves his sheep and dies for them. John 6, John 10
It's Calvinism. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
Ezekiel 33:11 is very clearly saying that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, instead hoping that they live and change their ways. If the wicked are the non-elect, then this suggests that the non-elect can change and become elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
Yeah it's more consistent with scripture but it's important not to assume that the more a theological system makes sense the more true it is. This is one of the easiest criticisms of Calvinism in the first place. God is not constrained by the human capacity for logic. Romans 11 is used so often to defend the doctrine of predestination but ironically the chapter ends by saying that God's judgements are "unsearchable" and that we cannot know the mind of God. We would do well to be wary of theologians who claim this knowledge.
oh really? how does God know what a man who He hasn't even created will do in a situation? the man doesn't even exist with any attributes or desires yet Molinism is just the default position for people who can't stomach the truth of determinism...
@@harrygarris6921 "Yeah it's more consistent with scripture but it's important not to assume that the more a theological system makes sense the more true it is." 1. it makes less sense than determinism 2. it's found NO WHERE in Scripture, it's a unbiblical system that is overlaid on the Bible, it's doing theology backwards
”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“ Romans 9:15-24 ESV bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV
I'm just so conflicted because this all makes sense but I've been watching content speaking against predestination and that also makes sense. From my perspective, a lot of the answers to the questions like whether God loves everyone in the predestination model just sounds like a bunch of rambling and word play. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that he loves everyone but doesn't give some people any chance to come to him at all. Like zero chance. Still a great video and made a lot of sense. Made my head hurt so thanks.
@@shleepzSam was a Calvinist for longer than redeemed zoomer has been alive. Sam's zeal can get the best of him sometimes but his arguments are hard to ignore.
@@srleplaythe idea that you have the ability to just stop sinning is a false premise. All of us will continue to sin and God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.
@@theisaiahcc We have the ability to sin less and to repent for our sins and God will take both into account when he decides on whom to have mercy during the Judgement
I personally would like to add that while St. Thomas and Calvin had a view of predestination which is much more similar than people think it is definitely distinct
I think it's another level of understanding to clearly understand our sinfulness to the poin we truly feel that it's right and just if God don't predestine salvation to some (maybe me). This really heart-breaking ngl.
I think one of the craziest parts about all of this is that all the people that I have discussed calvinism with that don't believe it to be true ALL of them have no idea what it is they actually teach, say, and believe. And the people that I watch that are calvisnists are some of the most Biblically literate teachers of the word that I know of; in my opinion, that can not be a coincidence.
Every Christian believes in predestination my brother. Even the most liberal of liberal humanists during the late reformation believed in predestination. Predestination is not the same thing as predestinarianism.
Here's a question I have for all my friends in this chat who don't accept the concept of predestination: Why would you trust a God who's plan you could ultimately jeopardize?
Zoomer, did you read any of Aquinas' Summa article for this video? Your points read as paraphrases of Aquinas. If you haven't, I'd recommend you do, because Aquinas gives the clearest proof of predestination, as well as the compatibility of our free will and God's absolute sovereignty, that anybody could have written.
12-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@redeemedzoomer6053
Thanks for the well put together and thoughtful explanation. It would be great to to see one on the “making God the author of sin” question as some well meaning and intelligent apologetic people are attacking reformed theology in this way.
I feel like this belief will not only cause a lot of good people to go to hell but potentially rebel and align with the devil. They would fall and think god must not care so they leave and sin.
It'd be interesting if you did a video on theories of atonement that talked about the non forensic views. The idea that "sin" is a legal problem seems to cause more issues than it resolves.
@@mgraysonhay there's actually a pretty interesting history of how so many Latin legal terms were roped into use. Mostly because tradition says Latin was the language of theologically smart people. The funny thing is that Paul, the one most attributed with heavy theological language, never used terms like propitiation, expiation, vicarious atonement, etc. He used terms like "set right" and "kept right", only using a legal sense to reach the audience which was used to a legal system. Look at Jesus and what He said it takes to be saved, no legal language at all! It's all about trust and having a changed heart.
@@Motosapien46 …except those terms are all over his epistles…and the epistles of the other apostles as well. Are you doubting the inspiration of the words of the Apostle Paul and others who used such language?
@@mgraysonhay I'm saying Paul didn't speak Latin so he never used the word justification... He spoke Greek. Even so, the meaning of justification today doesn't mean what it meant originally. Justification wasn't a legal payment. Justification was setting things right like the way when you use MS Word and you justify the paragraph to the left, right or center.
@@Motosapien46 lol I’ve never heard the term “justify” used in that context, like ever. But since you discredit what Paul says, what about Jesus when He says He who does not believe on the Son is *“condemned already?”* (John 3:18) Is that not legal language right there?
So, does this mean when God gives a spirit to a fetus, He has already put a hardened heart on him/her so he/she cannot and would not choose to believe Jesus when he/she grows, whatever happens, and however he/she got evangelized?
No predestination is in the end result. So if a person was hardened at birth but over time god softens that person to cause that accept God. The essence of it is that we are born in sin and by ourselves incapable of pleasing God. We need God to send his spirit and cause our hearts to accept Jesus. That's the predestination part. Now that could happen early on or it could happen in our senior years at ninety before we die. The point is it is God the father causing us to accept the son Jesus through his spirit which he predestined us before the foundation of the world.
@@pgpython So have God chosen who will be blessed by His Spirit before they are born? Because the elect term feels that way for me. My church is based on Reformed theology, but when I learn about this election, I can't help but ask this question. It feels like He elects whoever He likes and He sends His Spirit to them so they can understand God's words, repented, and then be saved. And He let the other babies that will never accept His words, because they are not His, become the path that will never grow any seeds dropped on it. How to reconcile these seemingly contradictory things?
The idea of calvinism pisses me of so much. Im new to christianity so i can take things the wrong way, but it also causes me to have a different view on it than people who are born in christianity (christian parents and all). For several reasons i am voluntarliy turning ti christianity. I have done very bad stuff when i was a teen that i regret everyday and whish i could make right. My dad is the best person i know, he is a very helpfull kind generous and rightious person. But he is as atheist as can be. Sure he isn't perfect but none if us are. I think he is more "good" than me. Yet i believe in christ. And calvinism basically means i am more likely to get in heaven, yet my dad, who does a lot of good, because he is atheist will SURELY go to hell to burn in a fire FOR ETHENERTY while demons rape his face off? I refuse to believe god is so cruel. I wouldn't wish that on worlds most awfull people for ths shitty lifes they lived for a small 80 years max. I guess im somewhat a universalist and ive seen videos from you where its noticable you dont like that idea and its often woke people believing it. So maybe im just coping. But i can't bear the idea of the good (not perfect) people around me going to be LITTERALLY TORTURED FOREVER because they believed the wrong thing, while the shitty person that is me has more chance of ethernal bliss. I wonder how you guys look on this.
For the sake of time, I'm just going to make some corrections. 1) We are all sinners and deserve Hell, that's why salvation is called grace, as it is an undeserved gift. In other words, if we got what we deserved, we would go to hell. Going to heaven is receiving more than we deserve and that is why our gratitude and love for Jesus lies 2) Hell is not exactly defined as a place of torture nor as a place where we are punished by demons. But a place where people are tormented by their own sins and eternally frustrated because they have definitively lost communion with God. Furthermore, the demons will suffer the exact same fate (torment). It's not like it's their kingdom and people are at their mercy or anything. 3) An unbeliever does not go to hell because he did not believe in Jesus. He would be saved because he believed in Jesus. But he goes to hell because he is a sinner. It is what he and we all deserve, because God is just and needs to punish sin and He is holy, and therefore cannot have communion with sin. 4) Your difficulty, from the way it was presented, does not seem to be with Calvinism, but with recognizing our sin and the Gospel, as the reality remains the same even if you are not a Calvinist: Whoever believes in Christ is saved and whoever does not believe is not saved. So your "difficulty" is really to Cristianism as a whole.
@@pedroguimaraes6094 thanks for your reply. A lot of it makes sense. But i don't believe i have a problem with christianity as a whole. As stated before, christian universalism exists which states that all people will reach heaven eventually. Altough the belief is to be honest pretty much clowned upon by many other denominations, it still is a pretty big group that follow this principle. I've heard this distinction of hell before and altough it makes more sense than literal eternal torture, this way it just seems to me like earth again. I mean, doesn't the bible state that satan is already the ruler of this world? and if we sin its almost guaranteed you will feel the negative consequences of that sooner than later. I for example never cheated, but i struggle with lust (in my mind), it consumes me and my energy. I am already haunted by my sin. I took things that weren't mine in my youth. I hurt a lot of peoples feelings because i didnt care when i was younger. Altough i turned my life around, some people never cause others as much pain as i did. I know i don't decide who goes to heaven and who not, but is it really that weird to believe my parents will not be tortured forever eventough they did not believe in jesus if even i am redeemable? I mean if gods grace is so big and he is the most merciful, can't he be merciful for people who did their best but didn't believe in him? Whats more confusing to me is how people are judged for believing the wrong god. I mean, look at it from this perspective. You grow up in an atheist household, your entire environment: school, friends, family all don't believe in a god. Because the world is getting more corrupt by the day and the lie rules, you start to believe in a god. Then there are multiple groups of people who all say the same thing (christians, jehova, muslims, hindus). "Believe in our god, or be tortured for ever". All groups equaly as convinced as the next one that they are right. How can it be expected that you make the right choice in such a position? Then indeed we go to somewhat "gods chosen people" principle which creates all kinds of awfull supremacist behaviours. That doesn't seem mercifull to me. Now this might seem to you that i am not christian at all (maybe i am not, who knows, i admitted i am just getting started and bought the bible a few days ago, monday 25th will be my first church day), but im seeing it more like this: am i really not christian for believing that jesus and thus god is even more mercifull than other denominations believe (So again, like universalists)? Thank you for the time you put in, i'd understand you'd have no interest in discussing with such a doubtfull rookie. These principles just makes me feel sad.
@@boterham6474 I can't see universalism anywhere in the Bible to be honest, but quite the opposite. The Bible explicitly mentions hell as eternal (Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48 and Jude 1:7 - just for some few examples). Yes, there were Christians who claimed universal salvation like Origen, but that idea was rejected as heresy in the Council of Constantinople in 553 AD. What we have as 'more acceptable' today is what we call "optimistic universalism", as believed by Bishop Barron and CS Lewis. They acknowledge that it's not what the Bible shows, but they maintain a 'hope' that somehow everyone will be saved at some point. It's much more an assertion of personal hope than the assertion of a biblical truth. However, Christianity is, indeed, an exclusivist religion. My argument is that recognizing the severity of sin and the reality of eternal punishment is what highlights the magnitude of God's grace and love towards us. We all suffer for sinning, because God is just, and the regenerated Christian may suffer even more in this world because they have repented, they fight against sin and, because we have been adopted as children of God, He disciplines us when we stray to put us back on the right path. The unregenerated do not experience repentance, and it's even biblical the idea that God delivers them to their own sins as a form of punishment. But the reality of eternal punishment demonstrates that the price for sinning against an infinite and eternal being is eternal condemnation. As CS Lewis says, the gravity of an act depends on the dignity against whom the act was committed. Slapping the president of your country is not the same gravity as slapping an ordinary person. The debt for sinning against God is eternal, and it was paid by Christ for those who believe in Him. What I'm trying to tell you is that you, just like your parents and I, deserve hell. The fact that you have been spared from this fate, for nothing you have truly done, is what makes grace grace and what should bring you to your knees in glorifying God. It also means that neither you nor I are better than anyone else because we believe, and that if we love those we know who are not Christians, we should out of love preach the gospel and be concerned with giving a good testimony, leaving the final result in God's hands. And just to clarify, yes, the Devil is portrayed as the prince of this fallen world, but he is just another tormented soul in hell. I just found it important to reaffirm this to you once again. There's much more to discuss, and it's not possible to do it all here. What I can tell you is that in the 2000 years of Christianity, many have had the same 'difficulties' as you, and we have answers to all of them. Be patient and use the means of grace: read the Bible (starting with the New Testament), set aside a moment for daily prayer and bring these questions to God, attend church on Sundays, and don't be afraid to question your pastor. The Spirit will guide you if you seek Him.
I believe that the discomfort that some people have with the sovereignty of God in salvation has to do with a wrong theology of God or a wrong theology of man. Either they see God as a deceptive Father who does not have their best interests in mind or they see themselves as less sinful and dependent on God's grace than they really are. But understanding God's loving character and man's degree of depravity, it becomes much easier and more comforting to place all your hopes in God's hands. It would be terrible if your salvation ultimately depended on you. As the joke goes, "an Arminian must have lost count of how many times he's lost his salvation ".
I don't know, It sounds like Calvinism is born out of fear that God's grace & providence cannot exist in the face of man's free will. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with thinking that the story must be fully written down to each letter from start to finish in order for God's ultimate victory & unquestionable sovereignty to be assured. It seems almost the inverse error of legalism.
@@patrickbuckley7259 We do not create our doctrines because we want God to be completely sovereign. We affirm our doctrine and the complete sovereignty of God because that is what the Bible reveals. I will give just three examples to help: 1) Isaiah 46:9-10: "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.' 2) Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." 3) Proverbs 16:9: "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." Reformed theology was established after many years of discussion, involving many theologians, based on honest and systematic readings of the Scriptures. Scripture simply exalts God in such an absolute way that it is uncomfortable for many. It's all there.
@@patrickbuckley7259 Either Grace is Grace, undeserved, or it isn't. If man could choose to go to hell or to heaven, he would naturally choose to go to hell. There's no way around the fact that God deliberately lets some people burn in hell and others don't, you can try to look at it at different angles and there would still be some kind of predestination involved.
@@XvicvicX I am not choosing to go to hell or heaven, I am choosing to accept what God has offered me. It is only by the grace of God that I have any choice at all, I do not deserve the choice to accept grace, but in his sacrifice I have been granted that capacity. God allows people to reject him, but that is not what damns them. They where damned due to sin. As it was in the Garden, I have all the capicities God has given me. To reject the notion that God can allow men to choose him, or sin, is to reject the notion that God could grant me choice at all. Because it assumes that if man is enslaved to sin, that God cannot endow man with the power to reject it.
@@patrickbuckley7259 A classical Armenian rethoric. In other words, you believe that Grace is a necessary _condition_ for salvation, but not _sufficient_ for it. This ultimately leads to the conclusion that Christ's sacrifice is vain for some. It fundamentally diminishes the glory of God in salvation. It's also inconsistent with the Bible. You claim that God restores human free will, of the same kind that Adam had, upon the call of Christ, to do or not do evil, to choose or not to choose God, but then suddenly He robs us of this fundamental right we supposedly received right after we are saved? Is it possible for someone that has been saved to then choose not be to saved anymore afterwards, and thus lose his salvation? This is not what the Bible teaches. The idea that God restores human free will in the sense you are proposing would also lead to the conclusion that any Christian in heaven could then choose to fall again from God's Grace and be cast to hell.
Calvin didn't "copy" earlier theologians. He went to the Scriptures first and then to the early Fathers. He found common ground with a great deal of Augustine's beliefs. And he freely disagreed with a number of his ideas. John Chrysostom was his #2 go-to of the early Church Fathers. I'm a fan of both of these men. And John Calvin has my highest regard. I appreciate your hard work and love your content.
Because He is not obligated to adopt anyone. Adam chose Satan over God and became a child of Satan and we are his offspring. God chose who He willed to adopt from Satan's children, He did not have to adopt anyone, He does not owe anybody anything. Thank Him for His grace.
@@dwashington1333 he did not say anything about God being obligated or owing sth. He just asked why God doesnt elect everyone, just because God could that , not because God should
Since I'm a Baptist I've found myself butting heads with you before in your videos, but I recently Joined a reformed Baptist church and this video helped me a lot in understanding my own views and coming to terms with calvanism. It was very difficult for me to accept limited Atonement after I heard someone say "Well Jesus didn't Die for all!" So I started reading and studying to come to a conclusion and it's been a few months since then.
@@RedPigSpartan he may have misspoke in a way he didn't realize would affect my understanding of reformed theology, but he seems to hold to limited Atonement, verbatim.
1-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@devinarmstrong7857
Best video on this topic I've seen. Even with Jesus having paid for my sin, my nature since the fall is to be sinful, so I would still need God to change me to see the light of Jesus because I am by nature a sinner
So is predestination like this? Destined to live: 1) Born in a Christian house hold. They might have strayed away but someone in their life corrected them and they remain steadfast in faith. 2)Was born in a non-Christian country following a different religion but discovered Christ while abroad or on the internet. 3) Was born into a loveless household and later ended up in prison and found Christ before execution. Destined to die : 4)Was born into a Christian household . Later rejected Christ and died in Sin. 5) Born into a false religion and remain devoted to it. Died rejecting Christ.
It's quote a bit worse than that actually. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
That's it. We are predestined by way of circumstance and our individual nature in our heart (e.g. two different people may be born under the same roof, but one turn to Christ because of his curiosity and desire for higher things, and the other turn away because of his worldliness.)
123-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out. Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption. God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@DrGero15
This might be the first explainer on Calvanism that didn't make them sound like lunatics that I've heard since I was a young man. Thank you! "If you could screw up God's plan, you would." - If you only knew...
Romans 10, right after the apostle Paul makes his explicit argument for God's sovereign election, he says how will they hear if no one preaches? (Abridged, of course) Evangelism and preaching the Word is God's chosen method of drawing sinners to Him. We are not to worry about who is and isn't elect, we are called to trust and rest in the promise of Christ's death and resurrection , and preach the gospel so that the Holy Spirit can draw to Himself those who He wills. Hope this helps.
"If you could screw up God's plan, you would."
I don't agree with some parts of Calvinism, but that is one of the most based statements on humanity that can be made.
-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out.
Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption.
God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4
So its God's plan that you sinned? What a stupid quote
@@ccrow3355 allowing it to happen is not the same as being responsible for it to happen
Amen!
@@ccrow3355 it's not that his plan is that you sin, but more that his plan is such that you sinning or not is not sufficient to destroy the plan.
"Oh no, predestination isn't as bad as you think!" *looks inside* "It's exactly as bad as I thought."
It’s just as bad as you thought because you don’t understand how Bad you are
Amen. A bunch of garbage theology
It's even worse than I thought. It's pure aids.
Genuinely disgusting theology coming from supposed Christians
The Holy Spirit will tell you what the truth is. Calvinism comes from thinking way too hard about how to turn Christianity into an exclusive elite club.
@@theankotze1292 Yeah, the garbage theology that almost all Europe and America held during the reformation and until the last 200 years and that Athanasius, Augustine, Aquinas and a lot of important theologions much more intelligent and devoted than you and your pastor/priest believed.
I was predestined to click on this video.
same
I was predestined to reply to this comment.
@@michaelbanda9993 I didn't want to but I was predestined to like your comment.
@@michaelbanda9993 I was predestined to reply to your comment, and also predestined to end this reply with a period.
I was predestined to be the fifth😅reply on your comment.
If there was one thing I agree with it was "Disney sequels are not canon"
If we're using them as an analogy, the sequels are the Book of Mormon.
@@aelarlightbringer6372you mean the Quran
Facts straight up facts, couldn’t said it any better.
@@michaeltagor4238both*
...none of the Disney book or story adaptions are canon.
I was predestined to reject Calvinism ☦️🇻🇦
You will still be responsible for every theological error you believed.
@@pedroguimaraes6094 Nope, No free will therefore no moral responsibility.
@@MatthewPatel-hx4ci You still have volition, we do not claim that you are a robot.
@@pedroguimaraes6094 so Redeemed Zoomer is wrong? You guys do hold to the belief that only Calvinists are saved? That’s all I needed to hear. Have the day you deserve.
@@art3misxp784 i did not say that. Everyone who believes in Christ is saved, but we will still be hold responsible in some way by our mistakes lol
“Btw, the Disney sequels are not cannon.”
We’ve found an elected one, boys!
Yesssss!!!!
There will be many false sequels in the last days.
@@JWARStudios 😂😂
"The 👑GREATEST Man in HISTORY"
had no servants, yet they called Him Master. Had no degree, yet they called Him Teacher. Had no medicines, yet they called Him Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won no military battles, yet He conquered the world. He did not live in a castle, yet they called Him Lord, He ruled no nations, yet they called Him King, He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was buried in a tomb, yet He lives today!
"His name is Jesus❤"
-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out.
Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption.
God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4
You know.
I now understand why there's such amount of atheist people coming from protestatism.
This is definitely not for a weak and childish mind
Amen!
Amen
Amen 🙏✝️❤️
this sounds a lot like Animal Farm "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"
How about everyone is equal but some are first among equals?
@@betrion7 that too sounds the same
@@betrion7you just said the same thing again in a different way
@@basedthomasaquinas welp that was the point; that's the pope. You should know that Thomas.
@@betrion7 nope, that's the Pope in Orthodoxy's view, in Catholicism the Pope is the head of the Church, not a primus inter pares
I don't subscribe to this predestination of a thing..i think i am predestined to reject predestination
Bro got Soteriology 101'd B)
You don’t reject predestination brother. You and myself reject the presupposed definition of it. The Bible teaches predestination, and it’s a great doctrine concerning eternal security.
Nah. Jesus never taugth predestination.
@@cesarvasquez9839which Jesus are you following??? Islamic Jesus??? ITS LITERALLY EVERYWHERE IN THE GOSPEL 😂
John 6:44 (LITV) No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 15:16 (LITV) You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.
John 6:37 (LITV) All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out.
Mark 13:20 (LITV) And if the Lord had not shortened the days, not any flesh would be saved; but because of the elect whom He chose, He has shortened the days.
John 17:2 (LITV) as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life.
Matthew 10:29 (LITV) Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? Yet not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father.
I can give you many more especially from the teaching of apostles and OT. Predestination is 100% Biblical
@@cesarvasquez9839if you don’t believe in predestined, you would have to believe God is not all knowing, and that’s heretical. Ephesians 1:4 “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love”
It's not that the sequels are not canon, they're just apocrypha
Bad Apocrypha like Gnostic Gospels...
I am thankful that God predestined me to don't belive in predistation
"I am thankful that God predestined me to don't belive in predistation"
you should learn spelling lol
@@tomtemple69 english is not my first lugguage, sorry and autocorrect thinks he knows best
He's predestined to spell predestination wrong
@@BasiliscBaz ok, well your comment is basically blaming God for having bad/incorrect theology
you think you're being funny by saying that when in fact it's blasphemy
YOU are the reason you have bad theology, God is not to blame
@@tomtemple69ok so God is the type of God who would save random people then make sure other people will not have faith and throws them into hell. Doesn't sound like the omnibenevolent God I knew. calvinism is basically unconditional favoritism
Being judged (to eternal torment forever in hell) based on characteristics that we cannot control. Ah, Calvinism.
You where predestined to be silly.
That’s like saying “I didn’t choose to be a person who would one day murder, I can’t be he’d accountable!” Riding off of that logic, you can’t blame God if he sends you to hell because he didn’t choose to be a perfect and sovereign Lord.
@@charles21137 If you, in fact, had literally no control over murdering somebody, then the sense of the first person goes away completely. It’s an illusion. There’s no “you” doing it, just a mechanistic organism. There’s no “you” to be held accountable. “You” didn’t do anything. You just fell in line for what was necessarily doing to happen. And just because “you” have proximate feelings about an action doesn’t change that fact.
Would you accept or reject the notion that one cannot be held to account for something that they have, literally speaking, no control over?
when does it say in this video that human are robot irresponsible for their acts?
@@ngzchongsoon9147 Calvinists don’t claim that, but it’s the entailment of their philosophical commitments.
This comes from everyone interpreting the Bible, quoted passages mean that God chose everyone in Christ but everyone is free to reject the calling. Parable of the Talents said by Jesus himself tells us our free will is paramount
"This comes from everyone interpreting the Bible" as opposed to the one person whom you happen to agree with. Who coincidentally is the only one who should be allowed to interpret the Bible.
@@ikemeitz5287 Councils of bishops with unbroken apostolic succession aren't one person
You cannot reject the calling. If you could, you’d have power over Gods will. No one has that.
”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“
Romans 9:15-24 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV
@@GreenGoblin107yes, you most certainly can because God gave us free will.
@@scorpionjaxxer339 Slow down. Take a deep breath. Now, actually read the scripture I sent; pray about it, read it again, and then pray some more. You’ll be fine.
How can you say that God chooses who will be saved? Then why evangelise? I agree that God is the one that saves, we don't do that ourselves, only through his grace, but I have to make that choice for myself if I want to reject or accept Jesus.
Ahh I remember when I thought this same way
“How can you say that God chooses who will be saved?”
Because Ephesians 1:4 says that God “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.” Also because God is sovereign.
“Then why evangelise?”
Because, while God is ultimately sovereign, he often works in and through secondary causes. As a biblical example, Joseph’s brothers meant their actions against Joseph for evil, but God worked them for good.
Evangelism is a way that God draws people to Him
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Before Abraham was, He was. He gave you the slightest bit of power that trembles when compared to His. You cannot reject Him.
@@MSKofAlexandria Bfr Abe was, He is, God is timeless and unchanging. Both Old and New Testament are full of people rejecting God. Your view is that God created some people just for him to damn them to eternal suffering, contradicts whole bunch of direct quotes of Jesus and you can forget benevolent God and objective morality with that stance
Yep, and this is where I part ways with Reformed theology. Love it a lot and I agree with a good chunk of it, but I simply cant look at calvinism and say its an intellectually honest view of the scriptures. Either way though, I love all of my brothers in christ and wish everyone Godspeed! This series has been epic Zoomer, your channel is such a blessing! Keep up the good work and God bless!
For me it is simply impossible to read the scriptures and not see the complete sovereignty of God from beggining to end and to read Romans and not see the Apostle Paul speaking clearly about predestination. It's a lot of desire not to want to believe in predestination
@@pedroguimaraes6094 Not at all, but I wont get into the nitty grittys and argue lol. Romans 9 is talking about God electing the Nation of Israel and how no one can question his decisions. because he is God. It is not talking about salvation however, and there are many times that the Lord says he wants all to repent and come to him, which would not make sense if he was the one choosing. Now of course, he did technically choose who will be saved when he elected to create this universe, but he knew that it would only be the people who heard his gospel and came to him. In fact, I believe God is more sovereign than calvinists do, because I believe that God can get his will done through our free will. Now. Again, I love you brother and I dont wanna start quoting scripture and get in a huge discussion with you over secondary topics. I hope you have a blessed day!
@@santiboy1127 I completely disagree with your exegesis of Romans lol. But as you said, this is an impossible discussion to resolve here, so I'm just going to make a small correction to the end of your comment. We believe that God is Sovereign and that human beings make their decisions freely (they just can't choose God). This is what the Wesminster Confession o Faith says in its chapter 3: "1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c" Providence means that everything that happened was preordained by God according to his will, but God did so using the free actions of his creatures. One example that illustrates it is what Apostle Peter's said in Acts 22: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." - God planned the crucifixion of Christ and preordained it to happen since the beginning, but God did not force the will of men to crucify Christ and they were harshly held responsible by Peter. So, having clarified this and undoing the strawman that is commonly said, the problem that Arminians and other Christians who believe in free will have with us is simply about God's Sovereignty in election, it is something very specific tbh. They believe that there is some human participation/cooperation and we do not.
@@pedroguimaraes6094 Thank you, Godspeed brother.
@@wrongsuitnotie8427Church father heretics would prolly disagree. The disciples would bend the knee to daddy Calvins superior theology
God is omnibenevolent, so He doesn't love anyone less. It's in His will for everyone to be saved, so He chooses everyone. We have the option to then choose or to not choose God. Our free will is the only area in which God limited His sovereignty
So there's a chance God can want to save someone and fail and lose them to he'll? Doesn't sound very all powerful
@@shleepz Some argue the points about free will and "choice hell" (vs punishment hell).
Regarding free will, you can't have a genuine relationship with a robot, or someone who's forced to do X.
Choice hell is the idea that people who don't try to be Christ-like are incabable of experiencing Heaven because it's so contrary to their nature, like in C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" (when the treacherous dwarves are in Aslan's country but they don't see/hear/smell the beauty around them and they can't enjoy it)
@PsycheReveals God chose Israelites, Abram, out of the nations. No one has a problem with this. Suddenly when God is consistent and does the same thing in modern times everyone throws a fit
@@shleepzCreating mankind Good and them descending into wickedness doesn't sound all powerful either. I have the power to stop my dog from barking. I can take its life whenever I want. Having all the power doesn't mean using all the power. Sometimes you restrain yourself, especially when it comes to the things you love.
@@shleepz God wants to save everyone. Its of that person's own choice that they go to hell. Welcome to Christianity!
6:26 But Luke Skywalker doesn’t truly have free will, since he only does and says what George Lucas scripts him to do/say.
in the context of the story, he does. He is a player in the story. That's the point.
@@through-faith-alone the story isn’t real. In the context of actual reality, he has no free will and isn’t even real. That’s the point.
@@disguisedcentennial835 IF the story were reality, he WOULD have free will. That's the point.
Imagine if George Lucas wrote himself into the story to tell the emperor, “I wrote you to be evil. Your fate is to be thrown down into the core of the Death Star and exploded to death and there’s nothing you can do about it because that’s how I wrote the story.” Would that have made the story better?
Isn't the real question: did Mark Hamill have the free will to accept the role of Luke Skywalker 🤔
The Luke Skywalker analogy seems like a bad one because Luke doesn’t actually have free will. What Luke does is determined by what George Lucas wrote, if Luke wanted to quit his training and go work at a bar that’s not an option…If we are set on a script we cannot override the script, the same way a robot cannot override what it’s creator designed it to do.
Am I missing something here?
It’s not a bad one at all. It’s the best one.
@@disguisedcentennial835Can you explain how a character who’s actions are predetermined by a script is different from a robot who’s actions are predetermined by it’s programming?
I was thinking the same thing, i am surprised he managed to record, edit and upload that clip without seeing how brain numbingly stupid it was to say a fictional character who's every action is controlled to the finest detail by the author has free will.
@@scorpionjaxxer339 exactly why Calvinism doesn’t work. 😊
@@scorpionjaxxer339 The analogy is good. The theology is bad. That's what he meant.
I was predestined to say predestination is the worst heresy of them all and about as Christian as Islam.
Yawn 🥱
so Islam has a more powerful God than Christianity?
and no, predestination in Christianity is not the same as Islam
@@tomtemple69it might as well be because in islam god also choses who he saves and the rest of us are wasting our time. Calvinism is silly imagine not being able to say god loves you ; the best u can do is he might love you
smh, all those heretic theologians ruining the church (Clement, Origen, Augustine, Aquinas, Wycliffe, Staupitz, Calvin, Zwingli, Anselm, Ursinus, Bunyan, Knox, Edwards, Owen, Spurgeon, Warfield, Bavinck, Cranmer, Vos, Machen, nearly all the puritans, and so many thousands more. Not to mention the strongest proponents of this theology: Moses, the prophets, Paul, John, and Christ).
Without these "heretics," we wouldn't have the church at all.
You can disagree with them, but saying their doctrine is "anti-Christian" is simply ignorant.
Based
This just seems like mental gymnastics.
@@SilentEcho4178 sure, but the idea that God being sovereign means he has to control every outcome is actually a really bad way of understanding sovereignty. Ironically if God is unable to grant his creation any kind of agency then he isn’t actually sovereign.
That’s because it is
Yeah... except no one for the first 1500 years of Christianity believed that so... kinda cooked yourself there bro.@@SilentEcho4178
@@SilentEcho4178 the fact Calvinists literally use the same argument as the Mormons is all the more evidence of Satanic influence. “Erm, but the words are in the Bible.” My brother in Christ, your _definitions_ of them _aren’t._ No Arminian is against predestination and election; we are against _your_ “predestination” and _your_ “election.”
@@SilentEcho4178 A refreshingly logical response to an angry comment. (:
Laughing in Lutheran
Lutherans hold to single predestination not knowing the logical consequence is double predestination 😂
@@tomtemple69 The Lutheran position is that the finite mind cannot understand the infinite. Much like no one can fully understand the Trinity, no mortal man can fully understand the relationship between God's sovereignty and our free will.
Calvinism is like 'God is sovereign, he can do anything, except be physically present in the Lord's Supper, if he did that he would explode'.
Seriously, did no one read the Parable of the Sower? Jesus even explained that this is exactly what he was talking about.
The seeds are sown everywhere, but it doesn't always take root.
@@NotAGoodUsername360 Yes i was thinking about this during the video too.
This was the topic I’ve struggled most with as a Christian, but now I understand:
God ultimately knows whether or not we will be saved since he knows the future, but it’s still up to our free will. Even though he knows the future, he didn’t decide who gets saved, we decide.
Nothing can thwart God's love for us, not even ourselves. Predestination is why I can say I am not save by my own works by solely by the works of Christ Jesus. Soli Gloria Deo!
I'm also not saved by works so that's why I bully my grandmother on a daily basis but oh I'm saved by grace!
"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those that believe." 1 Tim 4:10
This verse is completely meaningless if God predestined some people to hell and others to heaven.
@@Ezk47 Everyone that believes in original sin also believes that they require salvation just to avoid hell... hell is the destination, salvation is exactly what it sounds like. When Jesus tells the thief on the cross that they will be together in paradise... he doesn't say "if"
@@TroublechutorOf course he didnt say "IF" the thief was on a cross aswell. There was nothing he could do. But that verse doesn't explain the predestination doctrine. It shows that Christ can forgive the sin of man even on the cross because He is God.
@@Ezk47 So the thief could have rejected salvation after Jesus told him he was bound for paradise with him? The point is that Jesus didn't say to the thief "we're going to be in paradise together IF you don't (insert bad thing here)" He stated a fact of what the future that didn't have conditions, which doesn't allow for the possibility that it won't be true.
Look at it another way, Jesus told Peter that he'd reject him 3 times before the rooster crowed. Lucky guess?
@@Troublechutor It wasn't a lucky guess. If Jesus is God, then of course, He knows whats going to happen in the future. If you put It this way..
Mr. Zoomer, I know you don’t know who I am, but I just want to thank you. Your video on the books of the Bible on May 13th is what brought be back to Christ. Without you, I would be so stressed, melancholy, and a worse person if I didn’t know Christ (although I do now think that God used you as an instrument of bringing me back to him.) So, thank you very much. Keep doing this work for the world. Have a good day.
The key to understanding predestination in the Ephesian passage is to recognize the super important modifying phrase "in him" -used in Ephesians over ten times. What was predestined therefore was not individuals to salvation but the 'vehicle' for that salvation, which is Christ. (Which the video gets right) Whoever would humble themselves and get in the vehicle (i.e., respond to the Gospel) will be saved. God predestined a 'vehicle' to leave the 'station', and it's guaranteed (predestined) to reach its 'destination'; and anyone who responds to God's invitation and gets on it will be saved. Those who refuse to get on will be lost. God predestined these as the available choices, but he didn't predestine which choice you will make. That is the fatal mistake Calvinism makes in their understanding of predestination. Contrary to their system, the offer to be saved is clearly open to all according to the Bible (which the video incorrectly disagrees with).
The Roman's passage on predestination is not talking about individual predestination either, but rather, that all those who would be saved are "predestined to be conformed to the image of his son...", i.e., sanctified. In other words, God's purpose for all who come into the 'vehicle' (Christ) is that they become like Jesus in every way, i.e., in all their character. May God bless our Calvinist brothers and sisters, our contentions are not with each other, but with false doctrine that seeps into the church. "Doctrines of demons" as Paul says, that work to cause division in the body, and distraction that hinders the work of the Gospel and diminishes our view of God's love and grace.
None of these teachings existed in the church before Augustine. It is very significant that none, literally zero, of the early church fathers, the men who led the church after the Apostles for almost 400 years, taught or understood election and predestination this way. Augustine was formerly a Manichean in his philosophy and that heavily influenced his understanding of predestination. Namely, it caused him to have a gnostic & deterministic view of all things. Scholar Dr. Ken Wilson has done some great historical work on that regarding those documented gnostic influences on Augustine -please read him. Calvin just picked up where Augustine left off and ran with it. By the way, the video is mistaken in saying Aquinas held these same views, his views on election and predestination were very different from Augustine. Calvinism contradicts scripture which says God loves and wants all to be saved, and that he shows no partiality, nor is he pleased with the destruction of the wicked. (Ezekiel chs. 18 and also 33, among many other passages). Calvinism distorts God's character, and his will for all peoples. I believe there are many sincere and God-loving Calvinists, but this part of their theology is badly mistaken. God loves them, and they'll be saved if they believe, but this heretical teching will burn up on judgment day.
I don't know you did alot of work to reexplain Ephesians in a sorta skew way. It would be simple to read that "in him" people have been predestined for salvation.
See how easy that was?
I've been doing a deep dive on election and predestination and have reached similar conclusions. For those interested, William W. Klein's book "The New Chosen People: A Corporate View of Election" is both detailed and scholarly and goes through almost all the relevant texts dealing with election, predestination, etc. in the NT. I found it very helpful and it gave me a better understanding of Jewish and early Christian thought on these topics.
@@robertshrote6243 what does corporate mean in this context
@@torshavnnewellCorporate refers to a category of people in this context. The closest analogy I can think of is the concept of sets within mathematics. In math, a set is a collection of elements. Sets and elements are independent entities, since sets can be empty (composed of no elements). A set is analogous to a corporate body of believers (or in other terminology, the elect), and an element is analogous to an individual believer (someone who is among the elect).
This idea tracks well with the concept of Israel's election in the OT. Israel is selected as a people, as a corporate entity, and is given the task to be the light of the world and proclaim the truth of God. Membership to Israel, the people of God, is determined by adherence to the Law, ancestry, and for males, circumcision.
In the NT, Paul continues with this concept of corporate identity in his epistles. In most notably Romans, Paul explains that the Law and circumcision are insufficient to be considered part of the people of God. No one in Israel is without sin despite having the Law. Furthermore some Gentiles do what is required of the Law despite not having it and not being circumcised. Paul explains that Jesus accomplishes what Israel has not done and indeed could not do, He fulfills the Law, and He condemns sin and defeats death through His crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Through faith in Jesus, not through the Law and circumcision, we can be considered part of the people of God, part of the new Israel, the elect. This is accessible to both Jews and Gentiles alike.
As a final remark, corporate election does not refer to the idea that salvation somehow depends on the actions of or is through group members. This is not biblical and is heretical.
@@robertshrote6243 Thanks, that's good to know
Yeah, no. Luther had it right. Christ died for all. Irresistible Grace is nonbiblical.
Romans 9:19.
Christ died for all clearly with the divine understanding that the solid minority of people would actually accept that free gift of salvation. He technically died for the elect. John 3:16 clarifies that well: "That whosoever believes." Everyone emphasizes the "whosoever", while it's the "believes" element of that verse that's critical to the Calvinist perspective. It's the qualification for salvation.
Do you believe that everyone will ascend to heaven?
God is in control. He is the creator. What more is there to say. Thank God He is in control of my life. What power do I have to decide my own destination? We are all sinners and any decision I make would come from a sinful heart.
« So God create you as the vilain. And you can’t do shit to change that. And he will torture you for eternity for being the vilain. But he loves you. Just a little less »
Yeah, you know what? I’ll go check lutherianism.
So, you're a villain?
Of course not. But, are you going to argue that the fiends running the nations into the ground with their glass empires of greed and power are not villains? That God does not love them less because he created them to usher in the End of Days?
He created Adam to fail too according to Calvin. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
@@TemperedMedia Maybe i’m the vilain, i don’t know. It’s litteraly stated in the video above.
But what i am is not the point here. Let’s take some of…not very nice people. Pol Pot, to take an extreme. If God created him, refused to save him, and decide to torture him for eternity, do you see it as love ?
Because if you consider it as a sign of a fatherly love, you grew up in a pretty messed up family.
@@azers8298 But God did make Pol Pot in order that he might do what he did. God still loved him in spite of his wickedness.
@@azers8298 "Refuse" insinuates Pol Pot wanted to be saved in the first place.
If you ask any atheist how they would feel about spending all eternity worshipping Christ, they will say it sounds awful.
Ultimately, whether or not you are the villain *is* the point. It's the reason for the church, regardless of whether or not a Calvinist or Arminian or non-denominational chooses to accept the mission.
It's always been my passion to want to help people understand what they believe and actively choose to pursue the path they are on, because God put us all on our paths for a reason. He is ultimately in control of this path, and no matter my flailing, I cannot alter it.
Doctrine is an important part of a believer's life, as they help make clear definitions for the substance of their faith. Believers ought to want to explore the heights and depths of their worldview and lay the foundations of their faith. It helps them endure the rigors of life; an unshakeable faith is of utmost importance. A believer with firm doctrine is unable to be deceived by Lucifer, whose ultimate goal is to scatter and assail the faith of the elect.
However, doctrine is nothing without action (see: the book of James). So, whatever it is you believe, make it certain and act on it. Atheists are capable of doing as much, to their demise...
This has always struck me as a weird argument that you just need to step back from to understand. God is outside time, knowing the end from the beginning and how things will ultimately turn out doesn't mean He caused the thing. Due respect, but I think believers in predestination boils down to a poor understanding of God's relationship with time
God knows how everything will turn out... Good. Does God have a choice in what he does or doesn't do in time? If yes, does he know what the consequences of his actions will be in time? If yes then you are stuck with the reality that every action in the timeline was caused by God in someway.
If Gods love is infinite how can he love some more than others?
It's infinite, but conditional. Sinners get less, because they deserve less, because they sin?
@@hyperteleXii If it's infinite how is it conditional? that makes no sense.
What do you mean sinners get less? we are all sinners.
@@hyperteleXii nope, God cannot love less or more, He loves infinitely and perfectly
do you love your friends in the same way as your spouse the same way as your family the same as your church?
Where's the connection in your mind between infinity and unconditional? If you had infinite money, you still wouldn't give any to murderers, would you?
Sin comes in different qualities and quantities. A murderer sins more than a drug addict. The more you sin, the less of God's love you receive. My personal understanding is that this isn't so much a judgement from God to be undeserving, but simply the natural/divine consequence of choosing to actively sin. That is, the more and worse you sin, the further *from* God's infinite love you position yourself, thus receiving less.
Similar to how we might say that the Sun's energy is practically unlimited, but if you choose to go under shade, you'll naturally receive less of it by your own free will to seek shade.
@@mysteryman8122
@@hyperteleXiithat would only work if we got a say in our sinful nature but we don’t
To Calvinists:
How do you know you are elect?
2 Cor. 4:4 talks about Satan blinding the minds of unbelievers so they will not see the light of the Gospel. Why would Satan need to blind those who are spiritually blind already? Is this a double blinding?
Why would God command all men to repent (Acts 17:30) if they can't unless God aids them by granting regeneration?
Why do so many Calvinists struggle with assurance?
If God only saves some(the elect) isn't election what truly saves and not the Gospel and Christ's work on the cross? Seems like the Gospel and Christ's work on the cross is just a means to the end of election.
Why is there not one bible verse that explicitly states that regeneration precedes faith?
Why does Ephesians 1:13 tell us that we hear and believe before we are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
If God tells us that his nature is that he cannot lie, then why would it appear he has a revealed will in Scripture (all can come: Jesus will draw all men to Himself; whosoever believes) but He has this secret will that only the elect can come?
1. We know that whoever believes in Christ will be saved, therefore if you believe, you are elect. "The elect" is another way of saying "the faithful."
2. Satan blinds the minds of everyone because everyone has a sinful nature. God reveals himself to the covenant people and shows them grace out of his love.
3. God still wants everyone to repent because he is just. God condemns the faithless not because he did not elect them for salvation, but because they are sinners and deserve nothing more than his wrath.
4. Because a lot of Calvinists today have moved away from their traditional sacramentology, which was one way of having assurance of your salvation. If you are part of the visible Church and partake in the visible sacraments in faith, you are in the invisible Church and receive the invisible sacrament - the thing signified - through the Holy Spirit.
5. The election refers to whom God chooses to give his grace to. His grace in the atonement has appeared to all, but it will not apply to all. The election determines who will believe in Christ, and the actual agent of salvation is Christ himself.
6. 1 Corinthians 12:3 ESV, "Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit."
7. The verse says, according to the ESV, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit." It says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe, not a moment afterward.
8. That is not how God's will works. God can desire something to happen, but allow something else to happen. He doesn't want people to end up in hell but allows for it for an unknown reason.
I assume you're referring to John 12:32, which says "And I, when I am lifted up, will draw all people to myself." This seems to be in tandem with John 6:44, which says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day." However, this all comes to a head with John 6:37, which says "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." This seems to be a solid case against Calvinism right? You cannot come without God drawing you, all are drawn in the death and resurrection of Christ. However, that last verse pokes a hole in the argument. It says all that the Father gives to the Son will come to him, and will never be cast out. This shows that John 12:32 cannot be talking about God drawing you to convert to Christ, because otherwise, all would be saved, and eternally secure because they will never be cast out, which is not how it works. In truth, John 12:32 is about something else entirely: the reach of the gospel. The gospel is so widespread and available that it is very rare to find a single person who does not know who Jesus is, and the work he did on the cross. God, through the Church, draws almost all people to know who Jesus the Son is. The drawing in John 12 cannot be the same as the drawing of John 6, even though the same word is used in the Greek.
Tangent aside, God makes the elect come because he simply loves them, and leaves the non-elect in their sins. Nobody deserves salvation, so it's entirely fair for God to give it to whoever he wants, whether it be nobody, one person, twelve people, sixty-two people, or two billion people. He doesn't have to show grace to everyone just because he is loving. The fact that he shows grace to anyone at all shows just how loving God really is.
I think we're reading Ephesians differently. Verse 4 especially.
Also there's no "secret will"... only that God knows who is saved, and they will come.
Luke 15: 1-7 Jesus has to go and retrieve his lost sheep, they don't stay lost, and they can't resist him.
As for the free will stuff, Jesus tells Peter he'll reject him 3 times before the rooster crows... just a lucky guess?
Thanks for this video!! Now im most definitely converting to Eastern Orthodoxy!👍
Glory to God!
Based on
based
>RZ: Augustine believed in predestination
>Augustine: Writes an entire book outlining why free will is necessary for salvation
Both of these statements are true.
Augustine is all over the place. Why take his opinions seriously?
It would be easier just to to say, “God doesn’t control people or predestine them, he just knows what will happen”
He does predestine though. Scripture explicitly says this.
But, as the video explains, that isn’t what it is. God chooses people in Christ by His own determination. Not based on “what will happen” or what people do.
It sure would be easier, but God can do no wrong
I don't think you understood the video, then. Which is fair imo, because it's pretty heady to think upon. But mere foreknowledge of our choices makes us the ultimate authority of our lives, as God chose to respond to our free will, rather than His will being imposed upon us.
@@troyhare6312 Does scripture define predestination as "God chooses before creation who's going to heaven and who's going to hell when they die?" No, it doesn't. St. Justin Martyr was the first Christian to talk about predestination after the writings of Paul and he talks about it as God's foreknowledge of our will. I think it's pretty safe to conclude that a second century Jewish Christian saint understood the context of the early scriptures and the faith taught by the apostles better than a 16th century French lawyer who was completely removed from all of it.
This was great, Zoomer. Thank you for being faithful to the scriptures and clearly showing nuances and where other positions differ.
As someone considering Anglicanism, I’m glad I’m finally getting a good explanation on the ideas around Predestination. God bless.
Don’t jump into presuppositions and in a set of propositions that fit your “liking”. God desires that you study, 2 Tim. 2:15, and show *yourself* approved unto Him. I recommend “Beyond The Fundamentals” here on RUclips to consider that this doctrine is not Biblical.
I am a Baptist. The thing I love the most about Presbyterians (Presbyter = elder) is that emphasis on the church structured operationally in a biblically sound way. The Bible is clear how churches operate by way of Elder and deacon and I think that is an issue big time in the American church. The elders are supposed to direct the operations. Nowadays pastors do everything it seems.
I’m left more confused about predestination than I was coming into this video.
Edit: Predestination is real.
Right? He's not making a great case.
”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“
Romans 9:15-24 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV
@@GreenGoblin107 alright. I see where you’re coming from. Maybe I should attend a Calvinist church to learn more.
@@GreenGoblin107 that verse cannot mean what you’re saying it means. In the context of Exodus 33:19, Moses freely asked God to go before him, then God replied he will, but because God chose to (and not to repay Moses for anything). It does indeed depend on God, because while we’ve reached our hand out, he’s under no innate obligation to take it. He put himself under an obligation by choice when he proclaimed all who reach their hand out will find it taken and themselves lifted up and away from the cliff.
Don't worry, so are the Calvinists
Thankfully Calvinism is not Biblical and it’s wrong! Praise Jesus Christ ❤
Sure bud. Not like Calvin got his ideas from the Bible or anything...
Yeah! Calvin didn’t study and cite the Scriptures when making his theological claims, just made it up whole cloth!
@@SirMicahBrochJWs also do that this argument falls flat since many have twisted scripture before
@@Commandosoap777 JW's actively change scripture to fit their own theology. Calvin did not.
@@SirMicahBrochhe did tho lol and his fan club today does too maybe not zoomer and his version of Calvinists but i seen multiple that flat out deny we have free will even tho the bible says the opposite
Amazing, just amazing.
I love this channel, I am not a native English speaker so it is hard for me to understand some words, but just by listening and reading what little I understand I can understand everything because even though I don't understand English completely, I understand completely the message of God and that is all I need to understand what this channel of Sound Doctrine has to share from God.
Hi, I just wanted to let my comment here. I was on a group to study the bible and learn more about Jesus. I didn't know the person that leaded the group was a Calvinist, which at the beginning I had no issue at all. I have to admit the discipline on the bible and the way to pray that I learned on this group it was amazing. But honestly at the end it left me more confused and disappointed. He mentioned that what he believed was that the humans we are on a total depravation. The ones who will be saved are choose by God only, so basically what I understood is that my family and people I care for are doomed, there is no other way they are saved if God did not choose them, and he said that all what I can do is to pray for them and request God to have mercy. Another stuff that really shocked me was that he basically said everything that is not in the bible or does not comes from God is from the devil. Other things that also were mentioned by him is that we should not ask God for protection because that's an offense, if we have the HOLY SPIRIT on us we shouldn't worried about it therefore we shouldn't ask for it. Other stuff he mentioned is that God doesn't listen to the sinners only the ones who obey him and are under the grace. If a person reads the bible and does not convert into Christianity is a demon. And something that he told me personally is that I was chosed by God and if did not repent, deny myself and follow God right now. God literally will drag me back to him and it wouldn't be nice, literally I would be forced . Honestly this whole thing shocked me, brought me down and made me feel really bad about myself. I honestly thought on stopping and quitting, but I decided to continue looking and start to learn more about the bible and Jesus. There were a lot of things that really made me question about God, his love, his salvation and about the religion. He also gave us the advise go don't go to Catholic and other Christian churches that does not follow this kind of believes as they are not for God anymore and they became herectic. On a point I really thought it was more of a sect than a community for God. The other thing is that on this group they mixed a lot the conspiracy theories with the religion. I know not all the Calvinist are like this, but I don't know how this person arrived to all these conclusions. Thanks for reading. I just wanted to share my personal experience.
"And btw the Disney sequels are not canon" 😭💀 this man is so good at sliding in quick jokes
Calvinism is an atheist factory.
Lots of things are an "Atheist factory" when misunderstood. The question is: Is the concept biblically accurate or not. It seems to be accurate.
@@iamthasecond It’s not accurate thankfully. Calvinism, correctly understood, leads to nihilism.
@jackshadow325 No, it can lead to a nihilistic perception of reality... if misunderstood. I personally wouldn't identify as a calvinist, but double predestination is certainly biblical with a complete understanding of the scope of physical and spiritual reality as revealed through scripture and human observational experience. People who use calvinism as a justification for a nihilistic perspective don't understand that they are not equal with God. God's actions and human actions are compatible yet different... vastly categorically different. What particular issues do you have with Calvinism?
@@iamthasecond Calvinism is not biblical. It’s only when one reads the bible through a lens of extra-biblical philosophy that one comes to those conclusions. That’s what Augustine did, and Calvin after him. Listen to modern day Calvinists defend their position - their arguments are purely philosophical with sprinkles of bible passages to make it seem biblical.
@jackshadow325 Ok, but historical church figures aside, does double predestination defined as God electing certain people before time to spend eternity with him and also marking out certain people for eternal damnation accurately represent biblical theology? It seems to me that Ephesians 1, Romans 1, Romans 8, Romans 9, Jude, Proverbs 16, and Proverbs 20, along with pretty much the entire book of Job indicate God's sovereignty is so great that he controls every good and bad circumstance that occurs, and every person who does and doesn't spend eternity with him no?
Idea of predistation was predistend to be false in bible when is stated "is in Will of God to save all"
Did you watch the video?
Errrrr 🚫 first Timothy out of context. In context, it’s about praying even for the more fortunate of Christians and that God desires for all Christians to be saved.
So God want to save everyone but somehow He can't? Sorry bro, this is not the God of the Bible. Every time God is portrayed He is portrayed as being sovereign in every possible way and the apostles talked about His sovereignty in predestination so many times that is crazy.
@@pedroguimaraes6094god respect our free will loool it’s ironic a Calvinist thinks this dude you literally are the poster child of what atheists think Christians are according to you God literally didn’t give any human alive rn a fair chance since none of us were able to choose him in eden we are born sinful. Ur idea of god is the same an atheist has
@@pedroguimaraes6094 So you don't think God wants to save everyone?
I would argue Calvinism cannot be correct since the Bible on multiple occasions refutes the notion of Total Depravity. Jeremiah 18:1-10 being just one example. However, what I despise most about Calvinism is how it slanders the purely good nature of God. For instance, to say I am guilty because of Adam's sin is different than saying I acquire the consequences of his sin. If God held me guilty for what someone else did before I was born, while at the same time creating me in such a way that it was not in my power to reject sin and pick God, the act of God's creation would be one of evil and cruelty. Since God's grace is the only thing that can pull one from sin, if God creates creatures without sufficient grace, he would be acting more like the immoral pagan god Zeus, who could randomly cast lightning bolts on who he pleased. The true God is both completely good and just and should not be characterized as an evil tyrant.
Your thought that it slanders the perfect goodness of God is literally the same thing as was stated in Romans 9. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." And what was the response? "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." So you must reconcile that you are the pot that repliest AGAINST the Creator in Romans 9. "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" This is kind of humorous and sad that you are literally doing this and I bet you also even read Romans 9 which is just so interesting.
read roman’s 8-9
it reinforces total depravity so hard and it shows how biblical calvinism actually is
”For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.“
Romans 8:7-8 ESV
Job had his life destroyed BECAUSE he chose God. It was done to make a point. IIRC people died in the process... just to make a point about Job's choice. We benefit from this lesson at the great expense of Job, never-mind the people that died just to deepen his despair. I'm not sure if you would characterize that as "cruel" or not, but it would certainly feel cruel to Job. God did this, or he allowed it to be done. I don't know how to reconcile this against the idea that God does things we don't comprehend that seem cruel but have higher meaning or purpose.
FWIW, Job did a lot of observing the "creator/created" dilemma he was in as well. Its possible to know that God's nature is purely good, and still not understand how these things we see as cruel could be allowed to happen. That's a path we all have to walk down at some point.
@@LukasPorter1how can you give someone a law that they can’t keep? Calvinism is absurd
@@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459that's the point of the gospel. None of us can keep God's laws by ourselves.
Our default supposition is to suppose that in our own strength we can meet God's laws but we can't keep God's laws and is futile to suppose we can. We need to be made new with a new heart to obey God but only God can do that. It's not something that anyone can contribute towards.
The problem is that our default state is to try and please God by ourselves which put us under the law which leads to death.
Augustine wasn’t anything close to a Calvinist, let’s just all agree on that
Calvinists have to say that since their fanclub has no ties to any early church
@@Commandosoap777 oh but they can cope by quote mining
Why would God choose to create sentient beings and have them suffer for all eternity?
I struggle to mentally accept predestination because of this. but if God has meticulously created every individual, knowing exactly what environment he will have them grow up in and with what personality. Knowing that because of a combination of circumstances and personality they will never get a chance to know God truly. How is this person any different than someone being predestined to hell. I guess my opinion is free will isn’t really that free when our upbringing influences our thoughts and decisions and if God controls those factors isn’t he already creating people with no hope in choosing him?
Read Romans 9. It answers your exact question. "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Why would sentient beings, knowing the options, choose anything other than salvation?
@@Troublechutor have you ever spoken to a person before?? 🤣 We can rationalise anything
@@theonlylolkingsounds like a demon, honestly 🤮🤮🤧
yay, free will in everyday choices. Great to know I'll one day burn forever for something completely out of my control.
If you love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. Is it out of your control it’s simply your choice either you love The father with your whole heart soul and mind or you love the world and the things in it?
2 Thessalonians 2:13
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
I am a Christian but I was predestined to reject Augustinianism/Calvinism and reformed theology.
'Free will' is NOT self-determination. It is the moral freedom to do that which one deems to be good or fulfilling in some respect. Self-determination to mean deciding your own 'fate' is completely alien to Christianity. It's a bad conflation that needs addressing.
1-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out.
Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption.
God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4
@a.39886 Your argument is valid but your initial premise is unsound. God's creative will is indeed free and it is precisely for that reason that God by necessity has created and sustains all things. For the purpose that his name is glorified to the end of the unity of the Godhead. The opposite is quite true, God would not be free if he couldn't seek that which would bring him glory.
Your second premise is sound, no one forces God to create, nor can they, he does it out of his wisdom and sovereignty. Indeed he has created some for his name's sake as objects of his glory and others as objects for his wrath. This may make him seem to some as a self-absorbed narcissist, but it is far from that. It is so that we may enjoy him fully and share in the riches of his grace as all things are reconciled to him for his good purpose.
Yes God is sovereign, but that has little to do with the retribution the angels have and will receive for their rebellion. They were fully aware of the ramifications that their actions would cause, but they still chose of their own free will to rebel against God. Unlike us, they do not second-guess, once they set out to do something, they are fully committed to it. They seek neither forgiveness nor redemption. Even if they did how can their sins be atoned for? God is just by nature, therefore he must punish sin. Angels are not generational like mankind is, each is its unique species. A mediator would therefore need to pay that debt over and over as many times as there are many angels. After all, if it's to be done for one angel, it is only just to do the same for all the others. This is all assuming that there is even a sufficient sacrifice that can be made, given that angels are immortal creatures, how would one made in their likeness make reparation for their sins? Remember the wages of sin is death.
1) God wasn`t forced to created he could chose to not create unless you are bounding his attribute of freedom to only create.
2) God know beforehand he created he will create something he doesn`t want (sin) and due to his will of creating that most mankind will be doomed to eternal suffering in hell because this bring glory to his name.
3) God wants that people to be in eternal pain in hell or he won`t create the ones that will end up in that place@@timothyeyo9245
So, God decided that the best way to show his glory is to create people that are destined to eternal suffering, for absolutely no other reason? Contrary to his benevolence, free grace towards humans, incarnation as Christ, and so many other things somehow don't prove.
Hmm...
@heterian97 You make it seem like that is somehow unjustified. God is good and his ways are perfect, we sometimes don't understand that. Evil is necessary to glorify what is good. If there were no darkness, how then could the light be appreciated. Suffering and adversity refine virtue enabling growth. Some endure to the end by God's grace and others fall by the way.
It is out of his benevolence in the first place that he offered up himself, but not everyone accepts this gift, those who do are enabled to do so FOR his glory.
The author analogy to describe God is EXACTLY how I've described predestination for years.
I also find it fascinating to continue arguing against "predestination" as a basic theological tenet, when Paul uses the EXACT word to describe our adoption into Christ's kingdom (eph 1:5)
As a reformed baptist, this was a really good overview of predestination and a helpful tool for people who don't understand or who object and have misconceptions of what calvinists believe. Most people who are against predestination are ignorant that that word is in scripture and deals with the subject pretty intensely. I think I would be more of an infralapsarian but I heard Kieth Foskey say "I don't know and don't care" and I can heartily amen that. Some things aren't revealed to us finite mortal pea brains and thats OK.
Btw, the Disney sequels are not canon
Calvinism is the most hopeless anti-gospel on the face of the planet.
"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those that believe."
1 Tim 4:10
It's the last statement in that verse that brings the Calvinist position home...
Man, how great this stumbling block is for me.
Anytime I hear Calvinist make an honest claim like all we are characters in a book thats already been written like Zoomer used in this video, that we should be happy and find joy in that and try to paint that reality idea as beautiful and humbling is fascinating but in a sad way because makes God seem very weak and distant despite the attempt to articulate it otherwise. Especially the last couple of minutes.
Edit* added clarification on my opinion.
Really i get the opposite feeling they come off as extremely un empathetic cool you’re happy god chose you. What about everyone else? This idea of non believers being bad guys is cartoonishly dumb
Calvin was more honest about it. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7
@@Commandosoap777 I agree with you. I wasn’t very clear. My B. I added more clarification in my comment
"What if it turns out that we are robots, after all? Clay fashioned into marvelous robots, rather than being left as mere clay? Should we complain to God about that? Or should we rather feel honored, that our bodies and minds are fashioned so completely to fulfill our assigned roles in God’s great drama? Some creatures are born as rabbits, some as cockroaches, some as bacteria. By comparison, would it not be a privilege to be born as an intelligent robot?
Indeed, what remarkable robots we would be! Capable of love and intimacy with God, assigned to rule over all the creatures. Is it not a wonderful blessing of grace that, when we sinned in Adam, God did not simply discard us, as a potter might very well do with his clay, and as a robot-operator might well do with his machine, but sent his only Son to die for us? Risen with him to new life, believers enjoy unimaginably wonderful fellowship with him forever.
As we meditate on these dignities and blessings, the image of the robot becomes less and less appropriate, not because God’s control over us appears less complete, but because one doesn’t treat robots with such love and honor."
- John Frame, Systematic Theology pp1127-1128
The "robot" or "book character" analogies are not good analogies; our relationship with God is utterly unique. But it is better be a robot under God or a character in his book than autonomous outside of him. Our worth and dignity INCREASES as we are nearer and nearer to his will.
Autonomy from God is distance from the only source of meaning, value, purpose, and dignity. From what does a desire to be autonomous proceed?
@@DrGero15 exactly! I added clarification in my first comment. It sounds like something terrible and horrible but we are trying to be convinced that it actually isn’t.
why would God will someone to be out of love only to inevitably cut them off from him? it makes no sense unless they chose the separation
We did choose the separation from God in paradise adam is the father of us all
@@tannerfjeld1046you missed the whole point, re read the comment. God Bless you and have a good day
@@tannerfjeld1046 I did not choose anything. I am not Adam.
@@tannerfjeld1046 Ezekiel 18:20:
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
@@tannerfjeld1046 you have a point but it doesn’t prove calvinism whatsoever
The our father according to Calvinist : our father who predestined us i neither agree nor disagree with your judgement just as you predestined me to
Individualistic predestination is one of the worst ideas to survive the reformation. But I’ll still give you a thumbs up for not misrepresenting me us non-Calvinists. Few do these days.
Thanks for being one of the “nice” Calvinists so that I can enjoy your other videos 😅.
This means you don’t believe that God loves everyone. This means the Jesus suffering on the cross is meaningless. This means life is pointless.
This can’t be Christianity.
Where does he say Jesus suffering is meaningless? That people dont believe in Jesus is their own responsibility
I had a nice, long answer written out and then my browser crashed. Sadge
The opposite means Christ can die for someone and they still go to he'll, that's also meaningless. God generally loves his creation but he specifically loves his sheep and dies for them. John 6, John 10
It's Calvinism. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
@@Yoran87935 If everyone is already saved or not saved the death of Jesus and His existence is pointless.
Ezekiel 33:11 is very clearly saying that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, instead hoping that they live and change their ways. If the wicked are the non-elect, then this suggests that the non-elect can change and become elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”
Still, I feel that Molinism explains everything better, and it has the best apologetics
I agree
Yeah it's more consistent with scripture but it's important not to assume that the more a theological system makes sense the more true it is. This is one of the easiest criticisms of Calvinism in the first place. God is not constrained by the human capacity for logic. Romans 11 is used so often to defend the doctrine of predestination but ironically the chapter ends by saying that God's judgements are "unsearchable" and that we cannot know the mind of God. We would do well to be wary of theologians who claim this knowledge.
oh really? how does God know what a man who He hasn't even created will do in a situation? the man doesn't even exist with any attributes or desires yet
Molinism is just the default position for people who can't stomach the truth of determinism...
@@harrygarris6921 "Yeah it's more consistent with scripture but it's important not to assume that the more a theological system makes sense the more true it is."
1. it makes less sense than determinism
2. it's found NO WHERE in Scripture, it's a unbiblical system that is overlaid on the Bible, it's doing theology backwards
The enlightened centrist position
I love how deep these videos are. They get me all excited about reading the Bible, and I notice things I didn't before
With all respect, it's astonishing how anyone can believe in Calvinism
”For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?“
Romans 9:15-24 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/rom.9.15-24.ESV
@GreenGoblin107 I totally agree with that, literally. One doesn't need to be a calvinist for that. I'm molinist and agree with unconditional election.
I'm just so conflicted because this all makes sense but I've been watching content speaking against predestination and that also makes sense. From my perspective, a lot of the answers to the questions like whether God loves everyone in the predestination model just sounds like a bunch of rambling and word play. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that he loves everyone but doesn't give some people any chance to come to him at all. Like zero chance. Still a great video and made a lot of sense. Made my head hurt so thanks.
If you're brave enough you should have a discussion with Sam Shamoun on this topic.
He’d become Catholic Zoomer!
Sam shamoun is good at yelling down Islamic apologists but he's kind of annoying at anything else he does tbh
@@shleepzSam was a Calvinist for longer than redeemed zoomer has been alive. Sam's zeal can get the best of him sometimes but his arguments are hard to ignore.
Nah. Beyond the Fundamentals, it’d be an actual discussion, ha. Sam gets way too emotional and derogatory.
@@shleepzFAXXXXX
This denomination made me realize just how potent the problem of evil actually is
Anyone who doesn't think that this negates entire concept of free will is deluded beyond belief
There is no free will. They are in bondage to sin.
Ad hominem
@@mmtoss6530 Why not just sin as much as you want then, you are predestined either way, might as well make it count
@@srleplaythe idea that you have the ability to just stop sinning is a false premise. All of us will continue to sin and God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.
@@theisaiahcc We have the ability to sin less and to repent for our sins and God will take both into account when he decides on whom to have mercy during the Judgement
That's so pure and perfect. Thanks!
So God is bully now? Intresting
Its sound like from mind of atheist but not its how post apostolic Christians think
It just sad 😢
A Calvinist just replaces the evolutionary process with god
What denomination are you in?
@@DrGero15 i am catholic
Bully? Have you read Jonah? Job?
I personally would like to add that while St. Thomas and Calvin had a view of predestination which is much more similar than people think it is definitely distinct
Were the sequels predestined to be terrible?
I think it's another level of understanding to clearly understand our sinfulness to the poin we truly feel that it's right and just if God don't predestine salvation to some (maybe me). This really heart-breaking ngl.
"If you could screw up God's plan, you would."
Even a worstie is so true twice a day.
I think one of the craziest parts about all of this is that all the people that I have discussed calvinism with that don't believe it to be true ALL of them have no idea what it is they actually teach, say, and believe. And the people that I watch that are calvisnists are some of the most Biblically literate teachers of the word that I know of; in my opinion, that can not be a coincidence.
Every Christian believes in predestination my brother. Even the most liberal of liberal humanists during the late reformation believed in predestination. Predestination is not the same thing as predestinarianism.
Predestination is not determinism
@@ralfbo685Correct. Predestination is just a Christian doctrine with numerous interpretations.
Here's a question I have for all my friends in this chat who don't accept the concept of predestination: Why would you trust a God who's plan you could ultimately jeopardize?
Zoomer, did you read any of Aquinas' Summa article for this video? Your points read as paraphrases of Aquinas. If you haven't, I'd recommend you do, because Aquinas gives the clearest proof of predestination, as well as the compatibility of our free will and God's absolute sovereignty, that anybody could have written.
I am aware of Thomas's view, it's the same as Infralapsarian Calvinism
12-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out.
Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption.
God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@redeemedzoomer6053
Thanks for the well put together and thoughtful explanation. It would be great to to see one on the “making God the author of sin” question as some well meaning and intelligent apologetic people are attacking reformed theology in this way.
Great video as always
You were predestined to say that. Were all NPC'S!
@@MatthewPatel-hx4ci Was your pointless reply predestined too?
@@DruckerYTA Yes and your obvious question was answered too.😁
I feel like this belief will not only cause a lot of good people to go to hell but potentially rebel and align with the devil. They would fall and think god must not care so they leave and sin.
It'd be interesting if you did a video on theories of atonement that talked about the non forensic views. The idea that "sin" is a legal problem seems to cause more issues than it resolves.
And yet, the Bible constantly talks about forgiveness of sin in legal terms such as “justification.”
@@mgraysonhay there's actually a pretty interesting history of how so many Latin legal terms were roped into use. Mostly because tradition says Latin was the language of theologically smart people. The funny thing is that Paul, the one most attributed with heavy theological language, never used terms like propitiation, expiation, vicarious atonement, etc. He used terms like "set right" and "kept right", only using a legal sense to reach the audience which was used to a legal system. Look at Jesus and what He said it takes to be saved, no legal language at all! It's all about trust and having a changed heart.
@@Motosapien46 …except those terms are all over his epistles…and the epistles of the other apostles as well. Are you doubting the inspiration of the words of the Apostle Paul and others who used such language?
@@mgraysonhay I'm saying Paul didn't speak Latin so he never used the word justification... He spoke Greek. Even so, the meaning of justification today doesn't mean what it meant originally. Justification wasn't a legal payment. Justification was setting things right like the way when you use MS Word and you justify the paragraph to the left, right or center.
@@Motosapien46 lol I’ve never heard the term “justify” used in that context, like ever. But since you discredit what Paul says, what about Jesus when He says He who does not believe on the Son is *“condemned already?”* (John 3:18) Is that not legal language right there?
Thank you for explaining the 5 points of Catharism.
Damn… that’s just not Christian
read the Bible
@@redeemedzoomer6053 I was pre destined to write this comment. God chose me to
@@redeemedzoomer6053 I was thinking the same thing lol.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Protestant moment
This is one of the best videos I’ve ever seen. No lie
So, does this mean when God gives a spirit to a fetus, He has already put a hardened heart on him/her so he/she cannot and would not choose to believe Jesus when he/she grows, whatever happens, and however he/she got evangelized?
No predestination is in the end result. So if a person was hardened at birth but over time god softens that person to cause that accept God.
The essence of it is that we are born in sin and by ourselves incapable of pleasing God. We need God to send his spirit and cause our hearts to accept Jesus. That's the predestination part.
Now that could happen early on or it could happen in our senior years at ninety before we die. The point is it is God the father causing us to accept the son Jesus through his spirit which he predestined us before the foundation of the world.
@@pgpython So have God chosen who will be blessed by His Spirit before they are born? Because the elect term feels that way for me. My church is based on Reformed theology, but when I learn about this election, I can't help but ask this question. It feels like He elects whoever He likes and He sends His Spirit to them so they can understand God's words, repented, and then be saved. And He let the other babies that will never accept His words, because they are not His, become the path that will never grow any seeds dropped on it. How to reconcile these seemingly contradictory things?
The idea of calvinism pisses me of so much. Im new to christianity so i can take things the wrong way, but it also causes me to have a different view on it than people who are born in christianity (christian parents and all). For several reasons i am voluntarliy turning ti christianity. I have done very bad stuff when i was a teen that i regret everyday and whish i could make right. My dad is the best person i know, he is a very helpfull kind generous and rightious person. But he is as atheist as can be. Sure he isn't perfect but none if us are. I think he is more "good" than me. Yet i believe in christ. And calvinism basically means i am more likely to get in heaven, yet my dad, who does a lot of good, because he is atheist will SURELY go to hell to burn in a fire FOR ETHENERTY while demons rape his face off? I refuse to believe god is so cruel. I wouldn't wish that on worlds most awfull people for ths shitty lifes they lived for a small 80 years max. I guess im somewhat a universalist and ive seen videos from you where its noticable you dont like that idea and its often woke people believing it. So maybe im just coping. But i can't bear the idea of the good (not perfect) people around me going to be LITTERALLY TORTURED FOREVER because they believed the wrong thing, while the shitty person that is me has more chance of ethernal bliss. I wonder how you guys look on this.
For the sake of time, I'm just going to make some corrections.
1) We are all sinners and deserve Hell, that's why salvation is called grace, as it is an undeserved gift. In other words, if we got what we deserved, we would go to hell. Going to heaven is receiving more than we deserve and that is why our gratitude and love for Jesus lies
2) Hell is not exactly defined as a place of torture nor as a place where we are punished by demons. But a place where people are tormented by their own sins and eternally frustrated because they have definitively lost communion with God. Furthermore, the demons will suffer the exact same fate (torment). It's not like it's their kingdom and people are at their mercy or anything.
3) An unbeliever does not go to hell because he did not believe in Jesus. He would be saved because he believed in Jesus. But he goes to hell because he is a sinner. It is what he and we all deserve, because God is just and needs to punish sin and He is holy, and therefore cannot have communion with sin.
4) Your difficulty, from the way it was presented, does not seem to be with Calvinism, but with recognizing our sin and the Gospel, as the reality remains the same even if you are not a Calvinist: Whoever believes in Christ is saved and whoever does not believe is not saved. So your "difficulty" is really to Cristianism as a whole.
@@pedroguimaraes6094 thanks for your reply. A lot of it makes sense. But i don't believe i have a problem with christianity as a whole. As stated before, christian universalism exists which states that all people will reach heaven eventually. Altough the belief is to be honest pretty much clowned upon by many other denominations, it still is a pretty big group that follow this principle. I've heard this distinction of hell before and altough it makes more sense than literal eternal torture, this way it just seems to me like earth again. I mean, doesn't the bible state that satan is already the ruler of this world? and if we sin its almost guaranteed you will feel the negative consequences of that sooner than later. I for example never cheated, but i struggle with lust (in my mind), it consumes me and my energy. I am already haunted by my sin. I took things that weren't mine in my youth. I hurt a lot of peoples feelings because i didnt care when i was younger. Altough i turned my life around, some people never cause others as much pain as i did. I know i don't decide who goes to heaven and who not, but is it really that weird to believe my parents will not be tortured forever eventough they did not believe in jesus if even i am redeemable? I mean if gods grace is so big and he is the most merciful, can't he be merciful for people who did their best but didn't believe in him? Whats more confusing to me is how people are judged for believing the wrong god. I mean, look at it from this perspective. You grow up in an atheist household, your entire environment: school, friends, family all don't believe in a god. Because the world is getting more corrupt by the day and the lie rules, you start to believe in a god. Then there are multiple groups of people who all say the same thing (christians, jehova, muslims, hindus). "Believe in our god, or be tortured for ever". All groups equaly as convinced as the next one that they are right. How can it be expected that you make the right choice in such a position? Then indeed we go to somewhat "gods chosen people" principle which creates all kinds of awfull supremacist behaviours. That doesn't seem mercifull to me. Now this might seem to you that i am not christian at all (maybe i am not, who knows, i admitted i am just getting started and bought the bible a few days ago, monday 25th will be my first church day), but im seeing it more like this: am i really not christian for believing that jesus and thus god is even more mercifull than other denominations believe (So again, like universalists)?
Thank you for the time you put in, i'd understand you'd have no interest in discussing with such a doubtfull rookie. These principles just makes me feel sad.
@@boterham6474 I can't see universalism anywhere in the Bible to be honest, but quite the opposite. The Bible explicitly mentions hell as eternal (Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48 and Jude 1:7 - just for some few examples). Yes, there were Christians who claimed universal salvation like Origen, but that idea was rejected as heresy in the Council of Constantinople in 553 AD. What we have as 'more acceptable' today is what we call "optimistic universalism", as believed by Bishop Barron and CS Lewis. They acknowledge that it's not what the Bible shows, but they maintain a 'hope' that somehow everyone will be saved at some point. It's much more an assertion of personal hope than the assertion of a biblical truth. However, Christianity is, indeed, an exclusivist religion.
My argument is that recognizing the severity of sin and the reality of eternal punishment is what highlights the magnitude of God's grace and love towards us. We all suffer for sinning, because God is just, and the regenerated Christian may suffer even more in this world because they have repented, they fight against sin and, because we have been adopted as children of God, He disciplines us when we stray to put us back on the right path. The unregenerated do not experience repentance, and it's even biblical the idea that God delivers them to their own sins as a form of punishment. But the reality of eternal punishment demonstrates that the price for sinning against an infinite and eternal being is eternal condemnation. As CS Lewis says, the gravity of an act depends on the dignity against whom the act was committed. Slapping the president of your country is not the same gravity as slapping an ordinary person. The debt for sinning against God is eternal, and it was paid by Christ for those who believe in Him.
What I'm trying to tell you is that you, just like your parents and I, deserve hell. The fact that you have been spared from this fate, for nothing you have truly done, is what makes grace grace and what should bring you to your knees in glorifying God. It also means that neither you nor I are better than anyone else because we believe, and that if we love those we know who are not Christians, we should out of love preach the gospel and be concerned with giving a good testimony, leaving the final result in God's hands.
And just to clarify, yes, the Devil is portrayed as the prince of this fallen world, but he is just another tormented soul in hell. I just found it important to reaffirm this to you once again.
There's much more to discuss, and it's not possible to do it all here. What I can tell you is that in the 2000 years of Christianity, many have had the same 'difficulties' as you, and we have answers to all of them. Be patient and use the means of grace: read the Bible (starting with the New Testament), set aside a moment for daily prayer and bring these questions to God, attend church on Sundays, and don't be afraid to question your pastor. The Spirit will guide you if you seek Him.
I believe that the discomfort that some people have with the sovereignty of God in salvation has to do with a wrong theology of God or a wrong theology of man. Either they see God as a deceptive Father who does not have their best interests in mind or they see themselves as less sinful and dependent on God's grace than they really are. But understanding God's loving character and man's degree of depravity, it becomes much easier and more comforting to place all your hopes in God's hands. It would be terrible if your salvation ultimately depended on you. As the joke goes, "an Arminian must have lost count of how many times he's lost his salvation ".
I don't know, It sounds like Calvinism is born out of fear that God's grace & providence cannot exist in the face of man's free will. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with thinking that the story must be fully written down to each letter from start to finish in order for God's ultimate victory & unquestionable sovereignty to be assured. It seems almost the inverse error of legalism.
@@patrickbuckley7259 We do not create our doctrines because we want God to be completely sovereign. We affirm our doctrine and the complete sovereignty of God because that is what the Bible reveals. I will give just three examples to help:
1) Isaiah 46:9-10: "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.'
2) Ephesians 1:11:
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
3) Proverbs 16:9: "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
Reformed theology was established after many years of discussion, involving many theologians, based on honest and systematic readings of the Scriptures. Scripture simply exalts God in such an absolute way that it is uncomfortable for many. It's all there.
@@patrickbuckley7259 Either Grace is Grace, undeserved, or it isn't. If man could choose to go to hell or to heaven, he would naturally choose to go to hell. There's no way around the fact that God deliberately lets some people burn in hell and others don't, you can try to look at it at different angles and there would still be some kind of predestination involved.
@@XvicvicX I am not choosing to go to hell or heaven, I am choosing to accept what God has offered me. It is only by the grace of God that I have any choice at all, I do not deserve the choice to accept grace, but in his sacrifice I have been granted that capacity.
God allows people to reject him, but that is not what damns them. They where damned due to sin.
As it was in the Garden, I have all the capicities God has given me. To reject the notion that God can allow men to choose him, or sin, is to reject the notion that God could grant me choice at all. Because it assumes that if man is enslaved to sin, that God cannot endow man with the power to reject it.
@@patrickbuckley7259 A classical Armenian rethoric. In other words, you believe that Grace is a necessary _condition_ for salvation, but not _sufficient_ for it. This ultimately leads to the conclusion that Christ's sacrifice is vain for some. It fundamentally diminishes the glory of God in salvation. It's also inconsistent with the Bible.
You claim that God restores human free will, of the same kind that Adam had, upon the call of Christ, to do or not do evil, to choose or not to choose God, but then suddenly He robs us of this fundamental right we supposedly received right after we are saved? Is it possible for someone that has been saved to then choose not be to saved anymore afterwards, and thus lose his salvation? This is not what the Bible teaches. The idea that God restores human free will in the sense you are proposing would also lead to the conclusion that any Christian in heaven could then choose to fall again from God's Grace and be cast to hell.
Calvin didn't "copy" earlier theologians. He went to the Scriptures first and then to the early Fathers. He found common ground with a great deal of Augustine's beliefs. And he freely disagreed with a number of his ideas. John Chrysostom was his #2 go-to of the early Church Fathers. I'm a fan of both of these men. And John Calvin has my highest regard.
I appreciate your hard work and love your content.
Why does God not elect everyone?
Because He is not obligated to adopt anyone. Adam chose Satan over God and became a child of Satan and we are his offspring. God chose who He willed to adopt from Satan's children, He did not have to adopt anyone, He does not owe anybody anything. Thank Him for His grace.
@@dwashington1333 he did not say anything about God being obligated or owing sth. He just asked why God doesnt elect everyone, just because God could that , not because God should
Acts13,48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Since I'm a Baptist I've found myself butting heads with you before in your videos, but I recently Joined a reformed Baptist church and this video helped me a lot in understanding my own views and coming to terms with calvanism. It was very difficult for me to accept limited Atonement after I heard someone say "Well Jesus didn't Die for all!" So I started reading and studying to come to a conclusion and it's been a few months since then.
Sounds like that person is a heretic
@@RedPigSpartan he may have misspoke in a way he didn't realize would affect my understanding of reformed theology, but he seems to hold to limited Atonement, verbatim.
Go back to being a baptist that person told u the truth these Calvinists just like beating around the bush
1-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out.
Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption.
God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@devinarmstrong7857
this is heresy stew
Best comment
How so?
Best video on this topic I've seen. Even with Jesus having paid for my sin, my nature since the fall is to be sinful, so I would still need God to change me to see the light of Jesus because I am by nature a sinner
Is means Is
So is predestination like this?
Destined to live:
1) Born in a Christian house hold. They might have strayed away but someone in their life corrected them and they remain steadfast in faith.
2)Was born in a non-Christian country following a different religion but discovered Christ while abroad or on the internet.
3) Was born into a loveless household and later ended up in prison and found Christ before execution.
Destined to die :
4)Was born into a Christian household . Later rejected Christ and died in Sin.
5) Born into a false religion and remain devoted to it. Died rejecting Christ.
Ask him about elect babies you’ll be even more disgusted 🤢
It's quote a bit worse than that actually. “Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” John Calvin's Institutes , Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
That's it. We are predestined by way of circumstance and our individual nature in our heart (e.g. two different people may be born under the same roof, but one turn to Christ because of his curiosity and desire for higher things, and the other turn away because of his worldliness.)
123-If God's creative will is free, then: "God is not obliged to create every individual" and if that is true, no one or nothing forces God to create: *God freely chooses to create those he wishes to create, he creates knowing that some will be damned and others will be saved. God therefore has a free decision not to create those who he knows will not accept him, and yet, God wants to create them even knowing that they will end up eternally in hell suffering torment*, because that torment and suffering shows the glory of God, which is better than not create them and them avoiding the suffer with fire that never goes out.
Just like God did not wish to forgive the angels who sinned and did not offer them redemption.
God decides who He creates, who He saves and who He forgives and who He allows to suffer eternally everything emanates from God. God did not forgive the angels who sinned, but cast them into hell and left them in darkness, chained and kept for judgment. 2 Peter 2:4@@DrGero15
Can non Calvinist still be in the elect or do we not count as believers in Christ?
No, you can still be in the elect, according to them.
All Christians are elect, whether Calvinist or not
@@redeemedzoomer6053 aight that’s good to know IG I will keep praying
This might be the first explainer on Calvanism that didn't make them sound like lunatics that I've heard since I was a young man. Thank you!
"If you could screw up God's plan, you would." - If you only knew...
I like R. C Sproul's take: Yes, we have free will... and we freely choose to sin!
How does evangelism work if everyone is predestined?
Romans 10, right after the apostle Paul makes his explicit argument for God's sovereign election, he says how will they hear if no one preaches? (Abridged, of course) Evangelism and preaching the Word is God's chosen method of drawing sinners to Him. We are not to worry about who is and isn't elect, we are called to trust and rest in the promise of Christ's death and resurrection , and preach the gospel so that the Holy Spirit can draw to Himself those who He wills. Hope this helps.
It does, thank you