As a conservative Christian pastor, I accidentally used this type of questioning because it seemed like the honest, logical way to approach the search for truth. As a result, I ended up becoming an atheist.
@MojaveHighSierraElCapitan according to frank turek he can still get into heaven, but tuesdays it's hot needles under the fingernails day. poor sap, fancy changing your mind on something as trivial as religion.
If I may ask, what did you believe about Hell when you were a pastor? What would you tell an ex-Christian afraid of the idea of Hell and possibly ending up there.
-Knock knock --"Who is it?" -"It's me, Jesus. Let me in." --"Why do you want in?" -"I want to save you." --"Save me from what?" -"From what I'll do to you if you don't let me in."
@@Truestarentertainment There is no historical evidence outside the Bible that Jesus ever existed, don't you think that historians of that time would have recorded all the extraordinary events written in the Bible if they actually occurred? Everything ever written about Jesus in the Bible was written by unknown authors 45 years after the claimed events supposedly occurred.
@@Truestarentertainment (Julius Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon in 49 BC. ) We have nothing written by Jesus, and we do not know who really wrote any of the Gospels. Second many of Caesar's enemies reported the crossing of the Rubicon. But we have no hostile or even neutral records of the resurrection until over a hundred years after the supposed event, fifty years after Christian beliefs had become widely known. Third, there are numerous inscriptions, coins, mentions of battles, conscriptions and judgments, which form an almost continuous chain of evidence for Caesar's entire march. But there is absolutely no physical evidence of any kind in the case of Jesus. Fourth, almost every historian of the period reports the Rubicon crossing including the most prominent of the Roman age: Suetonius, Appian, Cassius Dio, and Plutarch. Moreover, these scholars have shown proven reliability, since a great many of their reports on other matters have been confirmed with material evidence and in other reports on other matters have been confirmed with material evidence and in other sources. But not even a single historian mentions the resurrection until the 3rd and 4th centuries, and then it is only by Christian historians. Of the anonymous Gospel authors, only “Luke” even claims to be writing history, and none of them ever cite any other sources or show signs of a skilled or critical examination of conflicting claims, have no other literature or scholarship to their credit that we can test for their skill and accuracy. (Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection) What did your God do during that eternity before he created everything? If your God was all that existed, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? your God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If your God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
"What would be an example of an untrue principle?" "Probably...that murder brings you eternal happiness" Very first section of the Book of Mormon, protagonist Nephi murders a drunk rich man, impersonates him, robs him and absconds with his valuables, is rewarded tremendously by God specifically for doing so, gets eternal happiness. By that standard, the book's already not doing too well from the start...
God said it is better for one man to perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief. If god is real/true why would he need murder to allow the idea of him to keep existing?
i tried the murder and stealing thing and it worked out pretty good, now i get three meals a day, a room with a really nice looking latino and i got an exercise program once a day at no cost. i miss my family, friends, holidays abroad, trips to the shops n stuff, but i think i did well. what year is this? i have to plan for the future.
I was thinking the same. I haven't read the book of Mormon, but I know that is at least 70% copied from the Bible, and the Bible is full of justified murder. Is like "Have you read your books?"
Mormons are often more mormon in the presence of other mormons than they would otherwise be. At the beginning he asks Elder Macedone to rate his confidence level about the claim that the Book of mormon is true and he answers 100%. It may not be obvious, but Elder Macedone was necessarily under social pressure to respond with the maximal confidence level and not to back down from that level durring the course of the discussion, because of the presence of the other elders (and maybe the camera as well). To do otherwise would risk trouble later on with regard to the other elders and mission leaders. There is a joke that goes like this: When you go fishing with mormoms why do you always have to take two with you? ... Because if you take only one then he will drink all your beer. This is probably not unique to mormons. For instance North Koreans are probably more North Korean in the presence of other North Koreans than they would otherwise be.
I live in Brunei. it is a crime to say anything negative about the royal family. I can guarantee that people are very different in front of other Bruneians than in private.
I live in utah and you can tell a Mormon but they don't think you can, most don't know they are in a cult. The problem with them is they won't stop putting their religion into our political system.
As a former Jehovah’s Witness, your comment is on the bullseye. The social pressure to conform is immense and also completely by design. In the end, it’s just your basic fear and intimidation techniques used by power structures since time began.
And you did not read the Book of Mormon before you said that prayer, did you. God gave you an answer according to how much you were prepared. The Koran is indeed a step in the direction of the full truth -- "milk before meat."
"He said"??!!?? as in LITERALLY talked back???? We have a term for that, "auditory hallucination".... a very common symptom of schizophrenia..... I suggest you seek professional help
When I was still christian I would do crazy mental gymnastics to make myself believe that I'd heard god's voice or that he was sending me some kind of message through the way the wind blew or how many's shits I took in a day. Carrying those illogical beliefs around with me was a huge weight, never realized until I was deconverted by channels like this one.
This is a great conversation but you missed a golden opportunity: “Do you think that someone who claims there is no possible way they could be wrong is displaying humility “?
Kyle The Electric Shaman ouch. that would have been more of a hit to his pride, but I don’t know if that would help him reflect on his methods reliability. Plus, he did say there was a way, prayer, and he was already a bit overwhelmed.
what type of change? If sometimes change is positive and sometimes negative then it's a reliable method to achieve change,just not reliable for positive change
no, it by definition is unreliable, you can't make future predictions on untrue things. it's a terrible way to go about understanding the natural universe.
Nice talk! But I didn't quite get what does it mean "the book is true". I wish you'd unpack it at the beginning and explore more concrete belief ("is God wrote it", "is book historically correct" etc). This can save you some time.
Yeah, this is totally mormon lingo. They say stuff is "true" and it means entirely different things than everyone else thinks. And every single mormon can mean something different when they say that they think something is "true". They can mean they believe it emphatically, that they trust it, that it is historical fact, etc. It's really just a catch all colloquial phrase in mormonism across the world (they even say it in other languages, the same exact phrase because when missionaries are "bearing their testimony" they will say "I know the ______ is true" in whatever language they're speaking in and when those people being taught are converted they repeat the phrases they heard the missionaries say.) It's almost like a self validating/reinforcing phrase that everyone in mormonism just spouts off without really thinking about what the words actually entail.
This is painful to watch. It makes me so uncomfortable. The narrator is being so patient I would lose my cool. I would feel uncomfortable because it’s putting them on the spot and their so young and inexperienced. I would be so angry because I would realize they are essentially little trained predators. I wouldn’t have the ability to ask them these questions because of my own anger regarding the religious and family arguments etc. This is very interesting and helpful but requires a lot of psychological examination on my part of myself. That’s too exhausting. They are trying to flee in the end! Fight or flight lol.
Its so, so terrible... How unbelievably brainwashed the morman's are. It saddens me to no end. Their epistemology is so skewed, so drenched in magical-thinking & "faith". Pretending to know something is not good enough for me. I want to KNOW !! Great job, here!! Very difficult to stay so steady while getting these kinda answers, you did fantastic!!
At least two of those four will leave the religion after their missions like I did. I was a mormon missionary 2010-2012. I left the religion in 2015. The whole "feelings confirm truth" no longer held up for me. Still hard to get over the religion though because I haven't really found anything else to fill the function it served in my life (social, emotional support, community, etc)
@@shawnreed7876 I had a similar experience Shawn, although with a different religion. I drifted away in my twenties, and never went back. There is still a void in my life, although I also have some clarity. It all comes down to questioning these long held beliefs and reaching conclusions which sometimes are uncomfortable. Ray
it's odd you assume that, even though it sounds even the tic tacs might still be odd even after counting. in one of anthony magnaboscos interviews he started to use the tic tac odd/even thing on this lady, and she goes "i'm actually a maths professor at this uni, don't get me started on that because it can be odd and even at the same time", good interview.
@@HarryNicNicholas So if the amount of tic tacs can be odd and even at the same time, then doesnt that mean that the amount of eyes you have can also be odd and even in the same time? ... I would love to talk to that professor.
@@durimmiziraj4815 I suppose that one variable could hold multiple values, so that variable could be odd and even, but the variable can only hold one value at any given time. A an integer number must be either even or odd. like a parabola can have the roots 1 and 4, ie, x=1 and x=4 therefore x is odd and even ;P this cannot be true for this number of tic tacs though
You gave them all a powerful, uncomfortable discussion in the nicest way possible. It was nice for him to even acknowledge you're good at discussions like that.
Mormon logic using food: The power of Pizza will beat all other foods, and you can know this by eating and praying about it. I know nothing tastes better than fresh Pizza!, I know this to be true because it was revealed to me through eating it and God told me so. What about Sushi? Pizza is the ultimate and will make all others who taste it abandon and forsake all other foods. Other foods may have some truth of tastiness but none can compare to Pizza! But I like Sushi best. It tastes the best to me and was revealed to me that Sushi rules the foods. Sushi may have some truth but only Pizza contains the fullness of the best foods and only Pizza has this power to actually show all the truth for those who partake of it. Have you ever tried Sushi? Umm... No, but I don't need to because by tasting pizza it's been revealed that it's the best, and if you partake and pray about it you will receive the same answer as me. So you never had sushi, only Pizza and yet it was revealed to you that it's the best? Yes. But I did the same thing and Sushi was my answer, why did we get two different answers and paths? Actually, you're both wrong guys... Bacon is God.
19:57 - Interesting indeed. I think he realizes he _has_ to so say yes since that is what _he_ is relying on (even though it obviously is wrong). 21:28 - I could just be reading into it, but was the book grab a comfort thing?
Deep Discussions well you gave him a lot to chew on (and the other guys). I agree, you should have ended it a few minutes sooner. There was a point you could tell he had to disengage. I think that was a tough conversation for him (and he hung in there).
One of the many things I like about SE ... everyone I've seen doing it on video is adding as much helpful information to help other practice SE if they want to. Not keeping to themselves so they can be 'the best' at it. Thanks for all your work! I see aspects of a few different SE folks I watch incorporated into your SE style as well as your editing notes. Nicely done!
The tic-tac thing really terrified him. He was afraid you were going to actually test him and that he'd look a fool in front of his colleagues. He had to scramble like crazy to invent a reason why prayer doesn't work for tic-tac situations. Apparently it only works for situations that are personal to the individual and therefore not able to be tested by anyone else. Convenient. He grabbed his book of lies and put it between you and himself like someone trying to ward off a vampire with a cross.
There was a lot of good stuff in this interview, and I found it instructive. You did a good job digging into their foundations and keeping the discussion focused. At the end he said "I know that God will tell people the Book of Mormon is true". That would have also been instructing to explore. What would prove that wrong? What would it take to convince them that someone prayed and didn't receive an answer from God that the Book of Mormon was true. Also, I would have liked to ask them: what effect do you think upbringing has on people praying to know something is true? Do you think if someone is brought up to believe something is true, that might predispose them to pray and receive an answer that it is true? He even admitted earlier in the conversation the someone can pray and be influenced by their feelings rather than God. Very, very interesting admission. Does upbringing predispose people to being influenced by their feelings in this way? If so, how would we protect ourselves from such a predisposition?
I’ve come to the conclusion that feelings can be misleading and so they aren’t always the best source of finding facts. But, I’ve also learned that so can all our other senses. Sight can be wrong, hearing, feeling, smelling, intution, etc can all mislead us. not a single sense or tool of our mind is perfect nor best for every situation or test. Is there any way to really know anything? And if we can’t really know anything, doesn’t everything come down to belief? Counter arguments? I love philosophy.
Zachary Eddy It’s seems like what you’re saying is that if it can be wrong, it can’t be trusted. I think there are varying degrees of reliability. For example, if we flipped a coin and wanted to know if it was heads or tails, what would be more reliable; touch, sight, feelings, intuition? We can test the reliability of these methods individually for the task at hand. Sure sight can be mistaken, but I wouldn’t say looking at a coin is just as reliable at getting you the answer as intuition. Does that make sense? Also, in certain circumstances we can combine methods to increase the reliability we get the right answer. Look at it, feel it, smell it, measure it with a ruler, etc.
Deep Discussions True. If it can be wrong, it shouldn’t be trusted. That’s not to say the conclusion it gave is incorrect, but the method is. I agree with also on the varying degrees of reliability (I’ll define that as the strength of an argument or conclusion). Depending on what is being analyzed, different methods give more or less strength to the conclusion. As well, compounding methods strengthens the argument as well. But even with all this, even the strongest arguments are only as strong as our understanding of the methods we use and the subject we are analyzing. And since we can never fully understand something, we are left with weak conclusions and strong conclusions. We cannot know for a fact. With all that said, since those methods are our best method, I’ll gladly keep using them, in fact I use them daily and even in my reasoning of this discussion. My point to all this is, while feeling may not be reliable for knowing the number of cars on the road at any given moment, it is better than any other method for connecting with and sympathizing with other people. Maybe, if God is real and listens to us, that would be his preferred method to communicate with us. Although, like people, it seems he has agency like the rest of us and chooses when, why, how, and what he wants to respond... not exactly the best conditions for testing the validity of an experiment. Let me know if I missed something in my logic. Always happy to have a thought provoking and edifying discussion.
Zachary Eddy I like your thought process. You can never be completely confident in a conclusion. I suppose the next question is, if feelings is the preferred method of a God, assuming there is one, can we test this method for reliability? If so, how?
Zachary Eddy Another question I think is important is how does sympathy and connection with others relate to truth? Can you have sympathy for things that are not true?
Deep Discussions Ah, now those are some good questions. Unfortunately, at this point, I don’t have an answer, only the beginnings of a hypothesis. Any experiment I’ve thought of still includes the agency, understanding, reasoning, etc. of individuals (including God). Not a very controlled experiment.
I've recently picked up SE and I've flailed about in my attempts thus far. I've enjoyed the other SE videos I've seen on YT, but this one is great because it's highlighting the techniques required to successfully get through these conversations. The light bulb for me was highlighting principles were 100% responsible for his belief rather than being split with things said to have happened in his book.
I was a mormon missionary once! They really do believe God answers their prayers the way they are saying, the problem is they don't really believe you or take you seriously when you give other examples of people getting different answers from their God. You have to really drive this home to mormons as it undercuts their epistemology.
The answer to the last question was telling. The way to know it's true is to pray and get a feeling. And the only way to know it's not true would be to use the same method and get a different result, in which case that method is still reliable even though it rendered a contradictory result. Hopefully he'll realize how obviously flawed that is.
Just got this recommended cause I stumbled into SE YT recently. Really enjoyed this conversation and it would be cool if you would upload new discussions!
Calling these kids "Elder" is a literal oxymoron. They are too young to have had any life experience or deeper searching for answers, which should include all sources, including those outside of their own literature and beliefs. There doesn't seem to be any questioning or natural curiosity from this Mormon boy. He just takes things on faith.
Interesting you mention that. I used to be a mormon missionary repeating the exact garbage and acting just like these missionaries. I am now a medical student working in a psychiatry hospital. I tried to convince one of my schizophrenic patients that his delusions aren't real. That did not go over well. In his (my patient's) world, he really does have power over the president. It's impossible to convince him otherwise. Another patient has communists irradiating him with radiation as they are trying to kill him. Both of these delusional guys talk to me as if I think the delusions are true. As it is with my delusional psychiatric patients, it's almost impossible to convince a religious person they are also delusional.
@@shawnreed7876 It is easier to trick someone, than to convince them they were previously tricked by someone else. It is why a lot of cons try to hit the same marks. First, I got tricked by a timeshare. Then, I got tricked by a timeshare cancelation company.
I am so envious that you can do this. It looks so hard! What a great thing we are witnessing...the evolution of Street Epistemology! Thank you, keep doing this please! Subbed
You really have to know Mormonism in order to talk with Mormons about their belief system and the methodology they use to claim justification for their beliefs. That's why exMormons are so crucial in giving relevant and pertinent criticisms to the belief system. Like, I'm an exMormon but I wouldn't claim to know how JW epistemology and terminology works. I have no idea. But I do want to say, good on you for introducing yourself to Mormon epistemology with the missionaries. Honestly, these guys just came out of high school and they're not looking to go into some sort of lifelong ministry or anything like that. They're just putting in the time to preach their religion and try to find converts because of the high social pressure put on them by the leaders of the church, the congregation and their doctrine. They really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to any sort of in depth discussion within philosophy. They just know what they've been told their whole life in the church, and they tell that to anyone who's credulous enough or desperate enough to join their religion. Mormon epistemology is very corrupt and they use epistemological terminology in unconventional ways in order to feel like they're correct about their reasoning. So don't be too upset if it felt like you both were talking past each other.
For some reason I couldn't help but focus on the guy on the other side of the table sitting at the end. It just seemed to me that he isn't all that into the Mormon thing and appeared to be thinking he'd rather be somewhere else doing something completely absent of religion and proselytizing. To me he looks like a future engineer or computer programmer - something that requires a very rational and logical mind which delves into the "nut and bolts" of things, instead of childishly playing with this touchy-feely fantasy stuff of gods and spirits and demons and shit. The guy in the middle has fundamentalist dork written all over him. lol
I'm raised in one little religion (not mormon) . I have many questions and search for the answer. It was really fun and interesting to see you talk with these young boys. The moment you started with the scale from 0 to 100, it hit me, its the same strategy used in questioning false but strong beliefs somone has . For example my father is a hoarder . Randy O. Frost does with downard arrow method to question beliefs ( about objects in hoarding cases) making predictions , then challenging and doing something to see if these predictions come true! And its also start from rating from 0 to 100 how much he / she believes that and if he thinks that after a conversation the belief will change. *Spoiler alert* Yes it does change! And oh boy how fast it does!
at 7:30 I wish you had continued with "is it possible for a book to contain true principles, but not factually be true?" "Does the Quran contain truths?" instead of going down the line you went down. Your question naturally sent you into debating doctrine rather than the epistemology of the belief.
Mercury wouldn’t that just turn into a debate over the Quran having material that could be considered “true principles?” I imagine he might have just said “no it doesn’t” and I would be even deeper into debating doctrine rather than sticking with his principles as he defined them.
I don't think so, but if he said "no, the Quran contains no true principles" then I would ask if there are fictional books that contain deeper truths about the experience of living. It is not that the book of Mormon contains no useful life lessons, it is that there is no reason to believe that the source of this wisdom is divine.
You asked something like that at 4:35 and his response made no sense. "this book teaches principles that are true, so that's how I know that.....that's what's changed me about this book". Then you asked him about the factual events in the book, when he already said that he doesn't think the parables are necessarily true. Instead you could eliminate the line of logic that says that it is a true book because it contains great life truths, and ask what is the real reason he believes it to be true in reality. (I'm just talking here by the way, not criticising you).
Mercury oh oh. I see what you’re saying. Yeah, I picked up on that when editing. I tried to point out on the subtitles where I missed that point. He seemed to want to switch gears and defend that the principles were true, not necessarily the book. Yeah, big miss on my part. Could have saved a lot of time.
One nit I have: in my own practice, I try to avoid using brand names, so I refer to "mints." I like the structured approach you use here, clearly walking through the various steps and techniques of SE. I wonder if this could have been more successful if you established better rapport with the ILs. My favorite SE conversations are ones where the SE and the IL are partnering in the investigation.
Some of that seemed like hard work for you to articulate and your questions were not always clear, particularly near the end. Can't be easy to open a dialogue with a stranger and 3 on-lookers though. Love that you highlighted his reliance on his feelings as a measure of truth as often as it was presented. Your guy was genuinely impressed at your reasoning powers. His friends looked very engaged and actively listening. Great job!!
Most (if not all) of my Christian friends have the belief that when a person is really sick, if they pray, and the person gets well, they think it's because they prayed. If that person dies, and they also prayed, they think it is God's will.
Just found your channel and I'm looking forward to watching your videos. I'm sure it takes a lot of time and patience to do these interviews. Keep up the great work
I've been watching SE videos for about a week since I've been introduced to them and I like them, I enjoy the purpose of them, to get people to reflect on WHY they believe something. However, I can't help but desire the interviewers in the video be just a tad more brazen and or agressive with their use of analogies instead of so passive. I don't mean being rude, not at all, but more directly pointing out the flawed methodology the interviewed have used as a means of confirming their beliefs. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who is transitioning out of mormonism and most of the SE videos I watch are about mormonism. For example, when he was talking about getting an answer directly from God that the Book of Mormon was true, could it not have been poignant to say "What if I read the book of mormon and prayed about it and felt that God told me it was not true?" Then he says that that couldn't happen or whatever reasoning he wants to use, then you say "then how can you say prayer is a reliable means of confirming the validity of the book?" Not mean at all, just a little more direct or forthright. Cheers in your efforts, they are appreciated.
If all knowledge and memory of all religions and all of science vanished overnight, and we had to re-learn everything from scratch, what would the world look like in 2000 years time? The world would be filled with different religions but would have the same science. This says a lot about the veracity of religious claims.
That was great conversation. Benefit not only for the IL but for the others sitting around the table. Way to take advantage of the opportunity. Like your subtitles too!
I found myself interested in the other young men's contemplation. It seems like they were really listening. This was definitely not a neutral group as far as religious beliefs. As a side note, I feel that your use of the tools available to you (some may call them props) was outstanding. There were a few times in this video (and also in many others) that you have written something on your pad or referenced the timer that helped show that you were sincerely listening.
@@deepdiscussions5728 I think the white board that you currently use gives the impression that you're listening yet not judging. A larger board may give the impression that you are trying to teach. Kinda like a teacher in front of the class. I also find it interesting to view what you're writing. The GoPro angle that you currently use works well for the viewer.
This was a very straight forward, evident bit of reasonably well done SE. As such it is a good reference point. I would have liked the Questioner to have asked about the nature of the transformation the respondent was referencing.
Deep Discussions Yeah, as Ben Shapiro likes to advertise, “Facts don’t care about your feelings.” Although, the problem I have with Shapiro saying that is that he’s religious and I think religion is the most staunch example of people choosing feelings over facts. I think this Mormon exemplifies that quite clearly. I think you did great. A second conversation with him after a few weeks of thought would probably be really helpful. Side question: What were the four Mormons doing together? Usually they hang in twos. Did he want to invite backup for your meeting just in case he got cornered? Lol.
Deep Discussions Ah, makes sense. I’ve just never seen so many in public like that before. It’s always fun talking with them. They tend to be pretty informed and are used to being criticized by other Christians so it’s always mentally stimulating talking with them. I had a few different conversations with Mormons in college. I think the church leaders love to send missionaries to college towns to try to convince university students because they’re more vulnerable since they’re new to the area and may not have many friends or are unsure of their future. Those types of people are prime targets for religious apologists and missionaries.
08:53 Is the same argument that @emptytomb aka Kenny uses for The Bible. But for Mormons, I suppose that isn't an outsider test, since Joseph Smith was rectifying mistakes in/from The Bible
Not "just a feeling" Matt 16:17 Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. What greater evidence can we receive than from God.
cdowis The distinction between ones feelings and God revealing something to you was one of my opportunities in this talk. I wish I would have asked how someone could tell the difference between their own feelings and God.
cdowis can someone feel a message from God and be mistaken about it? For example, if a Hindu felt they received a message from Krishna, in the same way as described in the video, would that be a reliable way to know it was in fact from Krishna?
God does not discriminate in talking to his children. He will speak truth to a Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, etc if they approach him in humility an with a sincere heart seeking truth. Moroni 7 [16] For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. [17] But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. He speaks to them according to the Light and understanding which they possess. If the person thinks Krishna is speaking to him, that is according to the light which he possesses -- "God is speaking to me."
Jake Hohsfield using logic we can ascertain if the LDS Church is false or if it's God's true Church. Would Satan produce a book of Scripture that exhorts humanity to follow Jesus and to obey Heavenly Father commandments? I cordially invite you to refute the following syllogism titled Christ's Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism. Before I post that logical argument here's a little background: The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the LDS Church, thus if the Book of Mormon is false, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and the LDS Church is a false Church. On the other hand: if the Book of Mormon is indeed God's word, Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God, and the LDS Church is indeed God's true Church. The following syllogism titled Christ Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism, proves that the Book of Mormon is indeed God's word. 1) Christ taught that a kingdom divided cannot stand cannot stand, and that Satan cannot fight against himself [ Mark 3:24-36 ] 2) the Book of Mormon exhorts humanity to follow Jesus, and to keep the commandments of the Father [ 2 Nephi 31:10 ] 3) if Satan inspired a book of Scripture that exhorts humanity to follow his arch enemy Jesus,and to obey heavenly Father's commandments, Satan divided his kingdom and fought against himself, and Christ was a false teacher, because He specifically taught that a kingdom divided cannot stand, and that Satan cannot fight against himself, thus the content of the Book of Mormon proves that Jesus Christ is its author In summary: the content of the Book of Mormon proves that Jesus Christ is its author, and by default that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God, and that the LDS Church is indeed God's true Church.
Robert Melcher Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I've tried to read it carefully, let me know if I am understanding this syllogism. My restatement of Christ Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism is as follows: 1. Jesus said of Satan that he does not contradict his own mission, namely: to be an enemy to God and God's work. In other words, Satan doesn't help God. 2. The Book of Mormon forwards God's work by virtue of its content. 3. Therefore, either Jesus' previous statement (1) is false, or Satan did not inspire Joseph Smith to create it. And since Jesus would not say something false, it follows that Satan did not inspire Joseph Smith to create the Book of Mormon, and it also follows that Jesus was the one who inspired it. Is that an accurate restatement of your syllogism? If so, I have several issues with it. Firstly, it assumes that Joseph Smith was inspired to create the Book of Mormon by either God or Satan, but by no other means. This could be a false dichotomy. Is it possible that a third means may have been responsible, namely, that Joseph decided to create it himself? Is every action that every person takes inspired by either God or Satan themselves? The syllogism Christ Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism also assumes that the content of The Book of Mormon forwards God's work. Although most of it does invite people to obey God's commandments, other parts may be contrary to God's mission. The Book of Mormon teaches that having dark skin is a sign of the transgressions of one's ancestors, and that righteous (and consequently non-dark skinned) people should not have children with them (Alma 6). As a consequence, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught that people of African descent were not worthy of the priesthood nor the temple endowment until 1978. Prophets taught that a black person was black because they were "less worthy spirits" before this life (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr.). The church even discouraged interracial marriage as recently as 1977 (Boyd K Packer at BYU). These teachings are harmful. Many people of African descent have wondered why God would curse them, filling them with feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy. These consequences, as a direct result of the Book of Mormon, seem contrary to God's will that His children love one another. The syllogism assumes the existence of Jesus as the Son of God and the existence of the Devil. This is a debatable issue. The syllogism assumes that God and Satan are capable of inspiring people to action, an assumption that even many Christians do not concede, and which rests on the previous assumption as well. This syllogism makes enough unfounded assumptions for me to reject it, at least until you have addressed the ones I have listed here.
Great Stuff. I really love the conversational and non-confrontational nature of the way you approach the participants. We need more of that in this world. I think it would have been beneficial to ask him to come to a simple truth (e.g. the Tic Tac question) first. If you had started with that as an example of what you were trying to accomplish with the interview, then I think he would most likely have said that you have to count the Tic Tacs. You could then talk about how both of you can use the same method to come to the answer. If you start with that overall concept (a test that you can both perform and reach the same conclusion) then you can refer back to it during the conversation as you evaluate the other tests he is proposing.
4morrfun great point. I’ve also gotten feedback that going through a few thought exercises before each interview is unnecessary and a bit boring for the viewers, and is best to bring them up as they become useful.
4morrfun Obviously it’s both, but in this specific case I think I should do what’s most beneficial to the IL, even if it’s not appealing to viewers. To clarify though, what’s most beneficial to the IL is almost always what I’m trying to show my viewers. The idea is that I may not catch new viewers attention, that would have otherwise been interested in SE, if I lead with the exercises. So, it’s really just an editing issue for viewers, and I’ve got that covered. There are some cases where IL’s just don’t have time, so in those cases I’ll leave them out as well.
I am an atheist who used to be a mormon missionary. One of my old "mission companions" and I were discussing my departure from religion. He kind of seemed to hint that he also thinks it is bogus, but... he brought up a valid point. What takes religion's place? Trumpism, Liberalism, Communism, worship of the state, etc?
Has god ever spoke the exact same words to two different people at the exact same time? Like when I have a conversation with two of my friends. Or does he only have the ability to speak to us one at a time, thus allowing us to come to the exact same conclusion separately without a book? Where is religion without the book?
You should have started with a belief that wasn't so foundational for him, then you could have had a less biased Q&A, and overlayed it at the end with how it applies to the more foundational belief.
RAMP LA I’ve tried that approach. I start out with some thought exercises, but often times they don’t apply to the person. When it does work out it’s great because they get to think through it without that pressure of dealing with a deeply held belief being poked and examined. Check out Caleb - Facts & Faith for a good example of that. ruclips.net/video/tKHTnE-FXmI/видео.html
Conquering Thought I think I missed a big opportunity by not focusing on how he distinguished his feelings vs outer feelings. That should have been the end of the talk. It may have still landed though.
keep it up. I think you should help them establish definitions of what they are talking about first. Like, what is his definition of "true", "principles", etc.
Does the guy off camera have a phone? Makes me wonder if he's informing " head office". They were all smiles at the beginning but grew increasingly uncomfortable.
Poor bastard in the back is bored out of his mind. I am probably projecting, but I when I was in his shoes, the boredom was torture. I was 19-21 years old. Those years were stolen from me. Thank you for trying to help them.
love me some Mormons! (at least in small doses). They're right about humility, anyway. Too bad they're not allowed to apply it to their religious belief!
Why do none of the other missionaries speak up of their thoughts because surely they aren’t all the same I would’ve liked to see it as a group discussion?
3/4 of Mormons eventually leave the church or just stop attending. There’s a good chance that if you’ve helped one think critically about their epistemology that they’ll think their way out of it.
Crazy prayingmantis there are many ways to convey it, but it’s usually a good idea to start with a simple example. From there you can ask something like “If you were wrong would there be a way for you to discover it” or “if this stopped tomorrow would you notice” or “if you lived in a world where this wasn’t happening, how would that world be different?”
Deep Discussions Yeah I understand, but if you're talking to someone who doesn't normally think through things or think deeply or question their own beliefs I feel they don't understand the problem that it creates in holding their belief, I just don't think they're joining the dots. For example I asked my father in law who is a Lutheran Pastor if there was anything that if he found out was true would deem his belief false and he answered "No" I explained the question to him a few different ways and gave him an example to make sure he understood the question but his answer was still No. I proceeded to explain why his answer is problematic for him to continue to hold his truth claim but he didn't seem to think it was. I've watched quite a few epistemology videos and the penny never seems to drop when the falsifiable question gets asked.
Crazy prayingmantis I agree. I interviewed a pastor and he admitted that he is reaching a very high level of confidence knowing his belief cannot be imperially tested, and did so just after saying that we can be more confident in beliefs that are testable.
Deep Discussions Yeah very confusing, some people just don't know what they're actually saying. They contradict themselves but don't even realise it or just lack the knowledge to full comprehend. I think schools fail us, they need to teach logical reasoning and critical thinking skills. It blows my mind how many people let superstition and bad reasoning corrupt their mind, and I live in a predominantly secular country. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like in the States.
Jesus explains this one in Matt 13:11 "Jesus replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not". This verse is so shocking it's amazing it isn't bought up more often. Basically not everyone is favoured by god, some people just won't ever be convinced/see the light/understand the word... it's favouritism of some description. There's a few more dodgy verses about people being rejected by god. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)"
Naturalism and Philosophy, haha support? No, no, I was highlighting what the bible said as per your original comment. Jesus says not everyone will get god’s message or any feelings from it... essentially playing favourites. I’m an atheist and these verses are just yet more evidence of an unfair and brutal god.
Their were a few times I would have asked some different questions, but I think the talk was pretty good. I'm not optimistic he's going to walk away thinking much about the tough questions though. We never know though. ;)
I wish I had known about his method when I was younger, because I often invited Mormons into my house specifically to tell them about the real life of Joseph Smith and how absurd I considered their Religion to be, I did not rant at them but I was really a meanie as I look back on it, if I had had this method it would have been much more valuable to them, they were always very polite but I am sure my words were like water on a duck's back.
I run into these mormon kids all over the world and they're always really incredibly nice, but the indoctrination is so strong. Super creepy fact though? They're not allowed to be alone when on mission, and their partners are supposed to report in on them if they perceive them to be showing doubts in the faith. Best of luck boys!
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
As a conservative Christian pastor, I accidentally used this type of questioning because it seemed like the honest, logical way to approach the search for truth. As a result, I ended up becoming an atheist.
Welcome to reality
@MojaveHighSierraElCapitan according to frank turek he can still get into heaven, but tuesdays it's hot needles under the fingernails day. poor sap, fancy changing your mind on something as trivial as religion.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 he could still be delusional...
and now you're a furry >.
If I may ask, what did you believe about Hell when you were a pastor?
What would you tell an ex-Christian afraid of the idea of Hell and possibly ending up there.
-Knock knock
--"Who is it?"
-"It's me, Jesus. Let me in."
--"Why do you want in?"
-"I want to save you."
--"Save me from what?"
-"From what I'll do to you if you don't let me in."
ke4uyp This is the funniest thing I’ve read this year.
More like, what he will do for you if you let him in your heart. Jesus saves. We are destined to hell unless we believe in him.
@@Truestarentertainment There is no historical evidence outside the Bible that Jesus ever existed, don't you think that historians of that time would have recorded all the extraordinary events written in the Bible if they actually occurred? Everything ever written about Jesus in the Bible was written by unknown authors 45 years after the claimed events supposedly occurred.
@@ke4uyp You tube "Jesus Evidence" Also if there is no God than who created the universe, earth, Us? Curious to read your theory.
@@Truestarentertainment (Julius Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon in 49 BC. )
We have nothing written by Jesus, and we do not know who really wrote any of the Gospels.
Second many of Caesar's enemies reported the crossing of the Rubicon. But we have no hostile or even neutral records of the resurrection until over a hundred years after the supposed event, fifty years after Christian beliefs had become widely known.
Third, there are numerous inscriptions, coins, mentions of battles, conscriptions and
judgments, which form an almost continuous chain of evidence for Caesar's entire march. But there is absolutely no physical evidence of any kind in the case of Jesus.
Fourth, almost every historian of the period reports the Rubicon crossing including the most prominent of the Roman age: Suetonius, Appian, Cassius Dio, and Plutarch. Moreover, these scholars have shown proven reliability, since a great many of their reports on other matters have been confirmed with material evidence and in other reports on other matters have been confirmed with material evidence and in other sources.
But not even a single historian mentions the resurrection until the 3rd and 4th centuries, and then it is only by Christian historians. Of the anonymous Gospel authors, only “Luke” even claims to be writing history, and none of them ever cite any other sources or show signs of a skilled or critical examination of conflicting claims, have no other literature or scholarship to their credit that we can test for their skill and accuracy.
(Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection)
What did your God do during that eternity before he created everything? If your God was all that existed, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? your God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If your God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
"What would be an example of an untrue principle?"
"Probably...that murder brings you eternal happiness"
Very first section of the Book of Mormon, protagonist Nephi murders a drunk rich man, impersonates him, robs him and absconds with his valuables, is rewarded tremendously by God specifically for doing so, gets eternal happiness.
By that standard, the book's already not doing too well from the start...
God said it is better for one man to perish than a nation dwindle in unbelief. If god is real/true why would he need murder to allow the idea of him to keep existing?
@@spellsinger67574 god is a mystery to me.
i tried the murder and stealing thing and it worked out pretty good, now i get three meals a day, a room with a really nice looking latino and i got an exercise program once a day at no cost. i miss my family, friends, holidays abroad, trips to the shops n stuff, but i think i did well. what year is this? i have to plan for the future.
@@HarryNicNicholas how is the baloney?
I was thinking the same. I haven't read the book of Mormon, but I know that is at least 70% copied from the Bible, and the Bible is full of justified murder. Is like "Have you read your books?"
Feelings
Jesus Christ Jesus Christ, don’t scare me like that!
Deep Discussions sorry, I hope you can forgive me as I have forgiven you.
Jesus Christ I’m afraid I cannot. I don’t have the balls to ask you to accept me as your lord and savior. But I can normal forgive you.
every time a question is troubling to him he picks up his book as a security blanket.
Mormons are often more mormon in the presence of other mormons than they would otherwise be.
At the beginning he asks Elder Macedone to rate his confidence level about the claim that the Book of mormon is true and he answers 100%. It may not be obvious, but Elder Macedone was necessarily under social pressure to respond with the maximal confidence level and not to back down from that level durring the course of the discussion, because of the presence of the other elders (and maybe the camera as well). To do otherwise would risk trouble later on with regard to the other elders and mission leaders.
There is a joke that goes like this: When you go fishing with mormoms why do you always have to take two with you? ... Because if you take only one then he will drink all your beer.
This is probably not unique to mormons. For instance North Koreans are probably more North Korean in the presence of other North Koreans than they would otherwise be.
I live in Brunei. it is a crime to say anything negative about the royal family.
I can guarantee that people are very different in front of other Bruneians than in private.
lololol
Good point
I live in utah and you can tell a Mormon but they don't think you can, most don't know they are in a cult. The problem with them is they won't stop putting their religion into our political system.
As a former Jehovah’s Witness, your comment is on the bullseye. The social pressure to conform is immense and also completely by design. In the end, it’s just your basic fear and intimidation techniques used by power structures since time began.
I was a Mormon and asked god to reveal the true book. And he said the Koran. So I became a Hindu
And you did not read the Book of Mormon before you said that prayer, did you.
God gave you an answer according to how much you were prepared.
The Koran is indeed a step in the direction of the full truth -- "milk before meat."
@ Eng613 Lmao
A born contrarian. I like it.
@@cdowis If he seriously believed that the Koran was the true book, he wouldn't have become a Hindu. He's being sarcastic.
"He said"??!!?? as in LITERALLY talked back???? We have a term for that, "auditory hallucination".... a very common symptom of schizophrenia..... I suggest you seek professional help
Thank you for keeping these guys from knocking on peoples doors for half an hour.
👍
Those indoctrinated into cults need to be saved and this is the best way I have seen that done. You can't save them they must come to it themselves.
I prayed and asked God if he’s true and he told me Dude your just talking to yourself.
That the thuth
Did you get what he meant
Wait a minute...
😂😂
I was Mormon 10 years and God never told me the book was true. Come to think of it he never told me anything.
That's why I left as well
When I was still christian I would do crazy mental gymnastics to make myself believe that I'd heard god's voice or that he was sending me some kind of message through the way the wind blew or how many's shits I took in a day. Carrying those illogical beliefs around with me was a huge weight, never realized until I was deconverted by channels like this one.
@Suzu Wuzu You sound like a really great person.
@Suzu Wuzu Well, if you'll permit me to say so, I've got my doubts. I wouldn't invite you to dinner, not to put too fine a point on it.
@Suzu Wuzu I don't reject my creator, which is evolution by natural selection. I pretty soundly reject you, though.
This is a great conversation but you missed a golden opportunity: “Do you think that someone who claims there is no possible way they could be wrong is displaying humility “?
Kyle The Electric Shaman ouch. that would have been more of a hit to his pride, but I don’t know if that would help him reflect on his methods reliability. Plus, he did say there was a way, prayer, and he was already a bit overwhelmed.
Was John the Baptist humble
Damn he said "I don't need to rely on my own understanding" deng
All religions are the same, based in emotions, feelings, and a claim that somehow a god only talk to them.
If a book can be untrue and still change lives, is using a book a reliable method?
what type of change? If sometimes change is positive and sometimes negative then it's a reliable method to achieve change,just not reliable for positive change
no, it by definition is unreliable, you can't make future predictions on untrue things. it's a terrible way to go about understanding the natural universe.
@@russellmillar7132 A CHANGE is not a reliable method for determining truth !
As an ex Mormon I enjoyed this. Showing your mistakes a nice plus
Nice talk! But I didn't quite get what does it mean "the book is true". I wish you'd unpack it at the beginning and explore more concrete belief ("is God wrote it", "is book historically correct" etc). This can save you some time.
Evgeniy Voichenko good point.
Excellent point.
Very excellent point.
Yeah, this is totally mormon lingo. They say stuff is "true" and it means entirely different things than everyone else thinks. And every single mormon can mean something different when they say that they think something is "true". They can mean they believe it emphatically, that they trust it, that it is historical fact, etc. It's really just a catch all colloquial phrase in mormonism across the world (they even say it in other languages, the same exact phrase because when missionaries are "bearing their testimony" they will say "I know the ______ is true" in whatever language they're speaking in and when those people being taught are converted they repeat the phrases they heard the missionaries say.) It's almost like a self validating/reinforcing phrase that everyone in mormonism just spouts off without really thinking about what the words actually entail.
Yeah the book is in no way historically true
This is painful to watch. It makes me so uncomfortable. The narrator is being so patient I would lose my cool. I would feel uncomfortable because it’s putting them on the spot and their so young and inexperienced. I would be so angry because I would realize they are essentially little trained predators. I wouldn’t have the ability to ask them these questions because of my own anger regarding the religious and family arguments etc. This is very interesting and helpful but requires a lot of psychological examination on my part of myself. That’s too exhausting. They are trying to flee in the end! Fight or flight lol.
"The book of mormon is a true book". That's pretty much the only thing true about it, it's a book.
Its so, so terrible... How unbelievably brainwashed the morman's are. It saddens me to no end. Their epistemology is so skewed, so drenched in magical-thinking & "faith".
Pretending to know something is not good enough for me. I want to KNOW !!
Great job, here!! Very difficult to stay so steady while getting these kinda answers, you did fantastic!!
Christy Santiago thanks Christy!
Howdy Christy Santiago! It is sad indeed. That was my main emotion in listening to this discussion.
John, hello fellow skeptic!!
Always running into each other in ALL of the best corners of RUclips!!
Great minds, as they say! I hope you are well. It is a delight to see you.
damn. you're a cute lady
Poor kids! Devoting their life to a lie...a bad lie at that.
At least two of those four will leave the religion after their missions like I did. I was a mormon missionary 2010-2012. I left the religion in 2015. The whole "feelings confirm truth" no longer held up for me. Still hard to get over the religion though because I haven't really found anything else to fill the function it served in my life (social, emotional support, community, etc)
@@shawnreed7876 I had a similar experience Shawn, although with a different religion. I drifted away in my twenties, and never went back. There is still a void in my life, although I also have some clarity. It all comes down to questioning these long held beliefs and reaching conclusions which sometimes are uncomfortable. Ray
They have to pay quite a bit as well, and they can't drink or have any fun at all. Can't have tea or coffee apparently.
Street epistemology should occur more frequently
If I put odd number of tictacs in the box and later it turns out to be even, that would be odd. So it would be even and odd at the same time. ;-)
it's odd you assume that, even though it sounds even the tic tacs might still be odd even after counting.
in one of anthony magnaboscos interviews he started to use the tic tac odd/even thing on this lady, and she goes "i'm actually a maths professor at this uni, don't get me started on that because it can be odd and even at the same time", good interview.
@@HarryNicNicholas wow, how many tic tacs does she think are in there?
@@HarryNicNicholas So if the amount of tic tacs can be odd and even at the same time, then doesnt that mean that the amount of eyes you have can also be odd and even in the same time? ...
I would love to talk to that professor.
@@durimmiziraj4815 I suppose that one variable could hold multiple values, so that variable could be odd and even, but the variable can only hold one value at any given time. A an integer number must be either even or odd. like a parabola can have the roots 1 and 4, ie, x=1 and x=4 therefore x is odd and even ;P this cannot be true for this number of tic tacs though
target audience is prolly < 1%
Anyone who learns how the human brain and the mind work could never use the ",feeling" argument
You gave them all a powerful, uncomfortable discussion in the nicest way possible. It was nice for him to even acknowledge you're good at discussions like that.
I think the term "elder" might have lost its meaning.
i would like to participate in this questionnaire.
let me know when you have a minute.
Mormon logic using food:
The power of Pizza will beat all other foods, and you can know this by eating and praying about it. I know nothing tastes better than fresh Pizza!, I know this to be true because it was revealed to me through eating it and God told me so.
What about Sushi?
Pizza is the ultimate and will make all others who taste it abandon and forsake all other foods. Other foods may have some truth of tastiness but none can compare to Pizza!
But I like Sushi best. It tastes the best to me and was revealed to me that Sushi rules the foods.
Sushi may have some truth but only Pizza contains the fullness of the best foods and only Pizza has this power to actually show all the truth for those who partake of it.
Have you ever tried Sushi?
Umm... No, but I don't need to because by tasting pizza it's been revealed that it's the best, and if you partake and pray about it you will receive the same answer as me.
So you never had sushi, only Pizza and yet it was revealed to you that it's the best?
Yes.
But I did the same thing and Sushi was my answer, why did we get two different answers and paths?
Actually, you're both wrong guys... Bacon is God.
Lol well worth reading through
19:57 - Interesting indeed. I think he realizes he _has_ to so say yes since that is what _he_ is relying on (even though it obviously is wrong).
21:28 - I could just be reading into it, but was the book grab a comfort thing?
Silhouette I wished I would have pressed him on that. “But HOW did you determine your feelings are not confused?”
Silhouette Yeah, I also got that impression.
Deep Discussions well you gave him a lot to chew on (and the other guys). I agree, you should have ended it a few minutes sooner. There was a point you could tell he had to disengage. I think that was a tough conversation for him (and he hung in there).
Silhouette Yes. Props to him.
One of the many things I like about SE ... everyone I've seen doing it on video is adding as much helpful information to help other practice SE if they want to. Not keeping to themselves so they can be 'the best' at it. Thanks for all your work! I see aspects of a few different SE folks I watch incorporated into your SE style as well as your editing notes. Nicely done!
Love it. Magnabosco style. Keep it up. And especially your corrections on your own performance. that how we learn.
Mats Jönsson thanks Mats!
The tic-tac thing really terrified him. He was afraid you were going to actually test him and that he'd look a fool in front of his colleagues. He had to scramble like crazy to invent a reason why prayer doesn't work for tic-tac situations. Apparently it only works for situations that are personal to the individual and therefore not able to be tested by anyone else. Convenient. He grabbed his book of lies and put it between you and himself like someone trying to ward off a vampire with a cross.
There was a lot of good stuff in this interview, and I found it instructive. You did a good job digging into their foundations and keeping the discussion focused. At the end he said "I know that God will tell people the Book of Mormon is true". That would have also been instructing to explore. What would prove that wrong? What would it take to convince them that someone prayed and didn't receive an answer from God that the Book of Mormon was true.
Also, I would have liked to ask them: what effect do you think upbringing has on people praying to know something is true? Do you think if someone is brought up to believe something is true, that might predispose them to pray and receive an answer that it is true? He even admitted earlier in the conversation the someone can pray and be influenced by their feelings rather than God. Very, very interesting admission. Does upbringing predispose people to being influenced by their feelings in this way? If so, how would we protect ourselves from such a predisposition?
Street Knowledge thanks for the feedback Raul!
I noticed you raised enough funds to come to UT for general conference. Are you gonna make it for april, or oct?
becca smith My name is Eddie. I think you’re thinking about Anthony.
Oops my bad! Sorry. Great video!! Come to Utah!!
becca smith No worries. Thanks. I would love to travel and do SE, but I am a father of 2 little girls and can only do it as a hobby.
I’ve come to the conclusion that feelings can be misleading and so they aren’t always the best source of finding facts. But, I’ve also learned that so can all our other senses. Sight can be wrong, hearing, feeling, smelling, intution, etc can all mislead us. not a single sense or tool of our mind is perfect nor best for every situation or test.
Is there any way to really know anything? And if we can’t really know anything, doesn’t everything come down to belief?
Counter arguments?
I love philosophy.
Zachary Eddy It’s seems like what you’re saying is that if it can be wrong, it can’t be trusted. I think there are varying degrees of reliability. For example, if we flipped a coin and wanted to know if it was heads or tails, what would be more reliable; touch, sight, feelings, intuition? We can test the reliability of these methods individually for the task at hand. Sure sight can be mistaken, but I wouldn’t say looking at a coin is just as reliable at getting you the answer as intuition. Does that make sense? Also, in certain circumstances we can combine methods to increase the reliability we get the right answer. Look at it, feel it, smell it, measure it with a ruler, etc.
Deep Discussions
True. If it can be wrong, it shouldn’t be trusted. That’s not to say the conclusion it gave is incorrect, but the method is.
I agree with also on the varying degrees of reliability (I’ll define that as the strength of an argument or conclusion). Depending on what is being analyzed, different methods give more or less strength to the conclusion. As well, compounding methods strengthens the argument as well.
But even with all this, even the strongest arguments are only as strong as our understanding of the methods we use and the subject we are analyzing. And since we can never fully understand something, we are left with weak conclusions and strong conclusions. We cannot know for a fact.
With all that said, since those methods are our best method, I’ll gladly keep using them, in fact I use them daily and even in my reasoning of this discussion.
My point to all this is, while feeling may not be reliable for knowing the number of cars on the road at any given moment, it is better than any other method for connecting with and sympathizing with other people. Maybe, if God is real and listens to us, that would be his preferred method to communicate with us. Although, like people, it seems he has agency like the rest of us and chooses when, why, how, and what he wants to respond... not exactly the best conditions for testing the validity of an experiment.
Let me know if I missed something in my logic. Always happy to have a thought provoking and edifying discussion.
Zachary Eddy I like your thought process. You can never be completely confident in a conclusion.
I suppose the next question is, if feelings is the preferred method of a God, assuming there is one, can we test this method for reliability? If so, how?
Zachary Eddy Another question I think is important is how does sympathy and connection with others relate to truth? Can you have sympathy for things that are not true?
Deep Discussions
Ah, now those are some good questions. Unfortunately, at this point, I don’t have an answer, only the beginnings of a hypothesis.
Any experiment I’ve thought of still includes the agency, understanding, reasoning, etc. of individuals (including God). Not a very controlled experiment.
I've recently picked up SE and I've flailed about in my attempts thus far. I've enjoyed the other SE videos I've seen on YT, but this one is great because it's highlighting the techniques required to successfully get through these conversations. The light bulb for me was highlighting principles were 100% responsible for his belief rather than being split with things said to have happened in his book.
I was a mormon missionary once! They really do believe God answers their prayers the way they are saying, the problem is they don't really believe you or take you seriously when you give other examples of people getting different answers from their God. You have to really drive this home to mormons as it undercuts their epistemology.
Aaron Alldredge thanks for the advice.
When and how did you see the ligt Aaron?
This is true for all Christians
The answer to the last question was telling. The way to know it's true is to pray and get a feeling. And the only way to know it's not true would be to use the same method and get a different result, in which case that method is still reliable even though it rendered a contradictory result. Hopefully he'll realize how obviously flawed that is.
Just got this recommended cause I stumbled into SE YT recently.
Really enjoyed this conversation and it would be cool if you would upload new discussions!
Calling these kids "Elder" is a literal oxymoron. They are too young to have had any life experience or deeper searching for answers, which should include all sources, including those outside of their own literature and beliefs. There doesn't seem to be any questioning or natural curiosity from this Mormon boy. He just takes things on faith.
I was born a Snake Handler, and I'll die a Snake Handler.
Those have got to be the most unhappy looking collection of people I've ever seen when confronted with their delusions.
Interesting you mention that. I used to be a mormon missionary repeating the exact garbage and acting just like these missionaries. I am now a medical student working in a psychiatry hospital. I tried to convince one of my schizophrenic patients that his delusions aren't real. That did not go over well. In his (my patient's) world, he really does have power over the president. It's impossible to convince him otherwise. Another patient has communists irradiating him with radiation as they are trying to kill him. Both of these delusional guys talk to me as if I think the delusions are true. As it is with my delusional psychiatric patients, it's almost impossible to convince a religious person they are also delusional.
@@shawnreed7876 It is easier to trick someone, than to convince them they were previously tricked by someone else. It is why a lot of cons try to hit the same marks. First, I got tricked by a timeshare. Then, I got tricked by a timeshare cancelation company.
I am so envious that you can do this. It looks so hard! What a great thing we are witnessing...the evolution of Street Epistemology!
Thank you, keep doing this please! Subbed
MeOw thanks! Please enjoy the rest of my interviews.
Shakira said it best, "These thighs don't lie." His leg reveals his nervousness about his beliefs.
I was thinking the same thing the whole time
Me too.
How did 4 min go to 31 mins
You really have to know Mormonism in order to talk with Mormons about their belief system and the methodology they use to claim justification for their beliefs. That's why exMormons are so crucial in giving relevant and pertinent criticisms to the belief system.
Like, I'm an exMormon but I wouldn't claim to know how JW epistemology and terminology works. I have no idea. But I do want to say, good on you for introducing yourself to Mormon epistemology with the missionaries.
Honestly, these guys just came out of high school and they're not looking to go into some sort of lifelong ministry or anything like that. They're just putting in the time to preach their religion and try to find converts because of the high social pressure put on them by the leaders of the church, the congregation and their doctrine.
They really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to any sort of in depth discussion within philosophy. They just know what they've been told their whole life in the church, and they tell that to anyone who's credulous enough or desperate enough to join their religion. Mormon epistemology is very corrupt and they use epistemological terminology in unconventional ways in order to feel like they're correct about their reasoning. So don't be too upset if it felt like you both were talking past each other.
For some reason I couldn't help but focus on the guy on the other side of the table sitting at the end. It just seemed to me that he isn't all that into the Mormon thing and appeared to be thinking he'd rather be somewhere else doing something completely absent of religion and proselytizing. To me he looks like a future engineer or computer programmer - something that requires a very rational and logical mind which delves into the "nut and bolts" of things, instead of childishly playing with this touchy-feely fantasy stuff of gods and spirits and demons and shit.
The guy in the middle has fundamentalist dork written all over him. lol
Proud 8theist in regards to the guy at the end, I got the same vibe.
Thanks for that. I've always found people's first impression of complete strangers to be a very interesting study. Heh, including my own (obviously).
Proud 8theist around the 20 min mark end guy's head was spinning!
I love that the expression of the guy in the back changes from bored to full on thinking mode
I'm raised in one little religion (not mormon) . I have many questions and search for the answer. It was really fun and interesting to see you talk with these young boys.
The moment you started with the scale from 0 to 100, it hit me, its the same strategy used in questioning false but strong beliefs somone has . For example my father is a hoarder . Randy O. Frost does with downard arrow method to question beliefs ( about objects in hoarding cases) making predictions , then challenging and doing something to see if these predictions come true! And its also start from rating from 0 to 100 how much he / she believes that and if he thinks that after a conversation the belief will change.
*Spoiler alert*
Yes it does change! And oh boy how fast it does!
at 7:30 I wish you had continued with "is it possible for a book to contain true principles, but not factually be true?" "Does the Quran contain truths?" instead of going down the line you went down. Your question naturally sent you into debating doctrine rather than the epistemology of the belief.
Mercury wouldn’t that just turn into a debate over the Quran having material that could be considered “true principles?” I imagine he might have just said “no it doesn’t” and I would be even deeper into debating doctrine rather than sticking with his principles as he defined them.
I don't think so, but if he said "no, the Quran contains no true principles" then I would ask if there are fictional books that contain deeper truths about the experience of living. It is not that the book of Mormon contains no useful life lessons, it is that there is no reason to believe that the source of this wisdom is divine.
Mercury I covered that question. His answer was yes.
You asked something like that at 4:35 and his response made no sense. "this book teaches principles that are true, so that's how I know that.....that's what's changed me about this book". Then you asked him about the factual events in the book, when he already said that he doesn't think the parables are necessarily true. Instead you could eliminate the line of logic that says that it is a true book because it contains great life truths, and ask what is the real reason he believes it to be true in reality. (I'm just talking here by the way, not criticising you).
Mercury oh oh. I see what you’re saying. Yeah, I picked up on that when editing. I tried to point out on the subtitles where I missed that point. He seemed to want to switch gears and defend that the principles were true, not necessarily the book. Yeah, big miss on my part. Could have saved a lot of time.
One nit I have: in my own practice, I try to avoid using brand names, so I refer to "mints."
I like the structured approach you use here, clearly walking through the various steps and techniques of SE. I wonder if this could have been more successful if you established better rapport with the ILs. My favorite SE conversations are ones where the SE and the IL are partnering in the investigation.
Since this was several years ago, I'm wondering whether you've had more recent experience with him and has he modified his beliefs?
Some of that seemed like hard work for you to articulate and your questions were not always clear, particularly near the end. Can't be easy to open a dialogue with a stranger and 3 on-lookers though. Love that you highlighted his reliance on his feelings as a measure of truth as often as it was presented. Your guy was genuinely impressed at your reasoning powers. His friends looked very engaged and actively listening. Great job!!
J.T.Farrier. Thanks! Yes, I still struggle to word exactly what I’m trying to say.
Most (if not all) of my Christian friends have the belief that when a person is really sick, if they pray, and the person gets well, they think it's because they prayed. If that person dies, and they also prayed, they think it is God's will.
Just found your channel and I'm looking forward to watching your videos. I'm sure it takes a lot of time and patience to do these interviews. Keep up the great work
Thanks Brandon!
I don't know if these boys are Mormon, but they might be appropriate for HS football recruiting.
I've been watching SE videos for about a week since I've been introduced to them and I like them, I enjoy the purpose of them, to get people to reflect on WHY they believe something. However, I can't help but desire the interviewers in the video be just a tad more brazen and or agressive with their use of analogies instead of so passive. I don't mean being rude, not at all, but more directly pointing out the flawed methodology the interviewed have used as a means of confirming their beliefs. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who is transitioning out of mormonism and most of the SE videos I watch are about mormonism.
For example, when he was talking about getting an answer directly from God that the Book of Mormon was true, could it not have been poignant to say "What if I read the book of mormon and prayed about it and felt that God told me it was not true?" Then he says that that couldn't happen or whatever reasoning he wants to use, then you say "then how can you say prayer is a reliable means of confirming the validity of the book?" Not mean at all, just a little more direct or forthright.
Cheers in your efforts, they are appreciated.
JeffreyQProductions Have you looked into the backfire affect? That is what SEers try to avoid.
Hey Jeffrey, good for you for working your way out! Check out a RUclips video from David Fitzpatrick called the heretics guide to Mormonism.
@@deepdiscussions5728 I have not heard of that. I'll look into it.
camera angle?
If all knowledge and memory of all religions and all of science vanished overnight, and we had to re-learn everything from scratch, what would the world look like in 2000 years time?
The world would be filled with different religions but would have the same science.
This says a lot about the veracity of religious claims.
Did you write changeD
That was great conversation. Benefit not only for the IL but for the others sitting around the table. Way to take advantage of the opportunity. Like your subtitles too!
Matt Gunderson thanks for the feedback. I will continue doing the subtitles.
I found myself interested in the other young men's contemplation.
It seems like they were really listening. This was definitely not a neutral group as far as religious beliefs. As a side note, I feel that your use of the tools available to you (some may call them props) was outstanding. There were a few times in this video (and also in many others) that you have written something on your pad or referenced the timer that helped show that you were sincerely listening.
Flip Wright I was thinking of purchasing a large dry erase board with legs, but I’m not sure how helpful that would be. On the fence about it.
@@deepdiscussions5728 I think the white board that you currently use gives the impression that you're listening yet not judging. A larger board may give the impression that you are trying to teach. Kinda like a teacher in front of the class. I also find it interesting to view what you're writing. The GoPro angle that you currently use works well for the viewer.
This was a very straight forward, evident bit of reasonably well done SE. As such it is a good reference point.
I would have liked the Questioner to have asked about the nature of the transformation the respondent was referencing.
Lol. Four Mormons in the woods. This ought to be good...
Edit: It’s really great around 21:30. It seems the point flew over his head though.
SailingSeignior I’m disappointed I didn’t persist with a simple “How did you determine that?”
Deep Discussions Yeah, as Ben Shapiro likes to advertise, “Facts don’t care about your feelings.” Although, the problem I have with Shapiro saying that is that he’s religious and I think religion is the most staunch example of people choosing feelings over facts. I think this Mormon exemplifies that quite clearly. I think you did great. A second conversation with him after a few weeks of thought would probably be really helpful.
Side question: What were the four Mormons doing together? Usually they hang in twos. Did he want to invite backup for your meeting just in case he got cornered? Lol.
SailingSeignior I believe they were waiting to talk with someone else in the neighborhood. They were all just hanging out when I approached them.
Deep Discussions Ah, makes sense. I’ve just never seen so many in public like that before. It’s always fun talking with them. They tend to be pretty informed and are used to being criticized by other Christians so it’s always mentally stimulating talking with them. I had a few different conversations with Mormons in college. I think the church leaders love to send missionaries to college towns to try to convince university students because they’re more vulnerable since they’re new to the area and may not have many friends or are unsure of their future. Those types of people are prime targets for religious apologists and missionaries.
How do you know?...because of the book....what do you see as true?...because of the book..
08:53 Is the same argument that @emptytomb aka Kenny uses for The Bible. But for Mormons, I suppose that isn't an outsider test, since Joseph Smith was rectifying mistakes in/from The Bible
Sorry @22:02 ... 2 different types of what? If you remember.
Feeling vs evidence based
Not "just a feeling"
Matt 16:17 Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
What greater evidence can we receive than from God.
cdowis The distinction between ones feelings and God revealing something to you was one of my opportunities in this talk. I wish I would have asked how someone could tell the difference between their own feelings and God.
You may find this helpful.
ruclips.net/video/d96c3dzZBmA/видео.html
cdowis can someone feel a message from God and be mistaken about it? For example, if a Hindu felt they received a message from Krishna, in the same way as described in the video, would that be a reliable way to know it was in fact from Krishna?
God does not discriminate in talking to his children. He will speak truth to a Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, etc if they approach him in humility an with a sincere heart seeking truth.
Moroni 7 [16] For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
[17] But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
He speaks to them according to the Light and understanding which they possess. If the person thinks Krishna is speaking to him, that is according to the light which he possesses -- "God is speaking to me."
cdowis Is it possible for someone to believe God is speaking to them, but God has not?
Could someone read the Book of Mormon and not get the feeling from God?
Sure
Josie Chapman I read the Book of Mormon in its entirety, and that's how I know that it is from Almighty God Himself.
Robert Melcher if I read the book of Mormon and found the opposite conclusion, how would we know who was correct?
Jake Hohsfield using logic we can ascertain if the LDS Church is false or if it's God's true Church.
Would Satan produce a book of Scripture that exhorts humanity to follow Jesus and to obey Heavenly Father commandments?
I cordially invite you to refute the following syllogism titled Christ's Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism.
Before I post that logical argument here's a little background:
The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the LDS Church, thus if the Book of Mormon is false, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and the LDS Church is a false Church.
On the other hand: if the Book of Mormon is indeed God's word, Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God, and the LDS Church is indeed God's true Church.
The following syllogism titled Christ Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism, proves that the Book of Mormon is indeed God's word.
1) Christ taught that a kingdom divided cannot stand cannot stand, and that Satan cannot fight against himself [ Mark 3:24-36 ]
2) the Book of Mormon exhorts humanity to follow Jesus, and to keep the commandments of the Father [ 2 Nephi 31:10 ]
3) if Satan inspired a book of Scripture that exhorts humanity to follow his arch enemy Jesus,and to obey heavenly Father's commandments, Satan divided his kingdom and fought against himself, and Christ was a false teacher, because He specifically taught that a kingdom divided cannot stand, and that Satan cannot fight against himself, thus the content of the Book of Mormon proves that Jesus Christ is its author
In summary: the content of the Book of Mormon proves that Jesus Christ is its author, and by default that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God, and that the LDS Church is indeed God's true Church.
Robert Melcher Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I've tried to read it carefully, let me know if I am understanding this syllogism. My restatement of Christ Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism is as follows:
1. Jesus said of Satan that he does not contradict his own mission, namely: to be an enemy to God and God's work. In other words, Satan doesn't help God.
2. The Book of Mormon forwards God's work by virtue of its content.
3. Therefore, either Jesus' previous statement (1) is false, or Satan did not inspire Joseph Smith to create it. And since Jesus would not say something false, it follows that Satan did not inspire Joseph Smith to create the Book of Mormon, and it also follows that Jesus was the one who inspired it.
Is that an accurate restatement of your syllogism? If so, I have several issues with it.
Firstly, it assumes that Joseph Smith was inspired to create the Book of Mormon by either God or Satan, but by no other means. This could be a false dichotomy. Is it possible that a third means may have been responsible, namely, that Joseph decided to create it himself? Is every action that every person takes inspired by either God or Satan themselves?
The syllogism Christ Teachings Debunk Anti Mormonism also assumes that the content of The Book of Mormon forwards God's work. Although most of it does invite people to obey God's commandments, other parts may be contrary to God's mission. The Book of Mormon teaches that having dark skin is a sign of the transgressions of one's ancestors, and that righteous (and consequently non-dark skinned) people should not have children with them (Alma 6). As a consequence, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints taught that people of African descent were not worthy of the priesthood nor the temple endowment until 1978. Prophets taught that a black person was black because they were "less worthy spirits" before this life (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr.). The church even discouraged interracial marriage as recently as 1977 (Boyd K Packer at BYU). These teachings are harmful. Many people of African descent have wondered why God would curse them, filling them with feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy. These consequences, as a direct result of the Book of Mormon, seem contrary to God's will that His children love one another.
The syllogism assumes the existence of Jesus as the Son of God and the existence of the Devil. This is a debatable issue.
The syllogism assumes that God and Satan are capable of inspiring people to action, an assumption that even many Christians do not concede, and which rests on the previous assumption as well.
This syllogism makes enough unfounded assumptions for me to reject it, at least until you have addressed the ones I have listed here.
Great Stuff. I really love the conversational and non-confrontational nature of the way you approach the participants. We need more of that in this world. I think it would have been beneficial to ask him to come to a simple truth (e.g. the Tic Tac question) first. If you had started with that as an example of what you were trying to accomplish with the interview, then I think he would most likely have said that you have to count the Tic Tacs. You could then talk about how both of you can use the same method to come to the answer. If you start with that overall concept (a test that you can both perform and reach the same conclusion) then you can refer back to it during the conversation as you evaluate the other tests he is proposing.
4morrfun great point. I’ve also gotten feedback that going through a few thought exercises before each interview is unnecessary and a bit boring for the viewers, and is best to bring them up as they become useful.
Deep Discussions Understood. I think you need to decide though. Are you doing this for the youtube viewers or the person being interviewed....
4morrfun Obviously it’s both, but in this specific case I think I should do what’s most beneficial to the IL, even if it’s not appealing to viewers. To clarify though, what’s most beneficial to the IL is almost always what I’m trying to show my viewers. The idea is that I may not catch new viewers attention, that would have otherwise been interested in SE, if I lead with the exercises. So, it’s really just an editing issue for viewers, and I’ve got that covered. There are some cases where IL’s just don’t have time, so in those cases I’ll leave them out as well.
I am an atheist who used to be a mormon missionary. One of my old "mission companions" and I were discussing my departure from religion. He kind of seemed to hint that he also thinks it is bogus, but... he brought up a valid point. What takes religion's place? Trumpism, Liberalism, Communism, worship of the state, etc?
Shawn Reed That’s a lot like a slave asking “If there is no master who should I serve?”
@@deepdiscussions5728 Nice analogy.
How about truth and honesty?
ah a bit of Nietzschean thought!
Good conversation. Bravo
Andy Zwright thank you!
Has god ever spoke the exact same words to two different people at the exact same time? Like when I have a conversation with two of my friends. Or does he only have the ability to speak to us one at a time, thus allowing us to come to the exact same conclusion separately without a book?
Where is religion without the book?
You should have started with a belief that wasn't so foundational for him, then you could have had a less biased Q&A, and overlayed it at the end with how it applies to the more foundational belief.
RAMP LA I’ve tried that approach. I start out with some thought exercises, but often times they don’t apply to the person. When it does work out it’s great because they get to think through it without that pressure of dealing with a deeply held belief being poked and examined.
Check out Caleb - Facts & Faith for a good example of that.
ruclips.net/video/tKHTnE-FXmI/видео.html
They know it’s true cuz they repeated that and went to a church where all their friends and family repeated that everyday
Epistomologists Starter Pack
-Flipflops
-cargo pants
-t-shirt
-white minimized
-eraser
-marker
-timer
-go pro
-Bottle of watet
Eisern Front don’t forget the tic tacs
this is what The sound of silence is about........
Love the SE Anthony setup. Great vid
Your patience is admirable. It's so sad to see these young men so brainwashed.
The mormon god is definitely wearing short-sleeved shirts and a tie.
Excellent talk I think you nailed everything you could now the hope is they mule it over and not get told later to ignore everything said... hope
Conquering Thought I think I missed a big opportunity by not focusing on how he distinguished his feelings vs outer feelings. That should have been the end of the talk. It may have still landed though.
keep it up. I think you should help them establish definitions of what they are talking about first. Like, what is his definition of "true", "principles", etc.
I finished the whole video.
But I fall asleep so I do not know what it was about.
Does the guy off camera have a phone? Makes me wonder if he's informing " head office". They were all smiles at the beginning but grew increasingly uncomfortable.
The interlocutor is uncomfortable.
How would a god tell you that there is no good book?
RUclips comments
Late night TV hosts. Lol
Poor bastard in the back is bored out of his mind. I am probably projecting, but I when I was in his shoes, the boredom was torture. I was 19-21 years old. Those years were stolen from me. Thank you for trying to help them.
love me some Mormons! (at least in small doses).
They're right about humility, anyway. Too bad they're not allowed to apply it to their religious belief!
ask them how do they explain evolution ?
Why do none of the other missionaries speak up of their thoughts because surely they aren’t all the same I would’ve liked to see it as a group discussion?
Swampbilly Others can jump in, but because my questions are tailored to a specific person they may not apply to everyone.
Deep Discussions ok
3/4 of Mormons eventually leave the church or just stop attending. There’s a good chance that if you’ve helped one think critically about their epistemology that they’ll think their way out of it.
20:15 *Wrecked* ..he views his book as a much of confetti .. you can see it in his eyes
I wonder if Elder Macedone was the senior missionary? I was surprised that the others stayed quiet the whole time and didn't interject their thoughts.
I find that the falsifiable question is a difficult one to frame and to get people to understand.
A lot of the time it goes over people's head.
Crazy prayingmantis there are many ways to convey it, but it’s usually a good idea to start with a simple example. From there you can ask something like “If you were wrong would there be a way for you to discover it” or “if this stopped tomorrow would you notice” or “if you lived in a world where this wasn’t happening, how would that world be different?”
Deep Discussions
Yeah I understand, but if you're talking to someone who doesn't normally think through things or think deeply or question their own beliefs I feel they don't understand the problem that it creates in holding their belief, I just don't think they're joining the dots.
For example I asked my father in law who is a Lutheran Pastor if there was anything that if he found out was true would deem his belief false and he answered "No" I explained the question to him a few different ways and gave him an example to make sure he understood the question but his answer was still No.
I proceeded to explain why his answer is problematic for him to continue to hold his truth claim but he didn't seem to think it was.
I've watched quite a few epistemology videos and the penny never seems to drop when the falsifiable question gets asked.
Crazy prayingmantis I agree. I interviewed a pastor and he admitted that he is reaching a very high level of confidence knowing his belief cannot be imperially tested, and did so just after saying that we can be more confident in beliefs that are testable.
Deep Discussions
Yeah very confusing, some people just don't know what they're actually saying.
They contradict themselves but don't even realise it or just lack the knowledge to full comprehend.
I think schools fail us, they need to teach logical reasoning and critical thinking skills.
It blows my mind how many people let superstition and bad reasoning corrupt their mind, and I live in a predominantly secular country. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like in the States.
So why does God give some those feelings but not others?
Jesus explains this one in Matt 13:11 "Jesus replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not".
This verse is so shocking it's amazing it isn't bought up more often. Basically not everyone is favoured by god, some people just won't ever be convinced/see the light/understand the word... it's favouritism of some description. There's a few more dodgy verses about people being rejected by god.
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)"
@@norswil8763 So are you a Calvanist?
Naturalism and Philosophy, odd question. No I'm not, what lead you to that query?
@@norswil8763 your response to me sounded like you support the view that God elected certain people to go to Heaven and others to go to Hell.
Naturalism and Philosophy, haha support? No, no, I was highlighting what the bible said as per your original comment. Jesus says not everyone will get god’s message or any feelings from it... essentially playing favourites. I’m an atheist and these verses are just yet more evidence of an unfair and brutal god.
Now do it with Muslims, the coincidences are uncanny. They also believe in prophets and they also just feel that their holy book is true.
I wish that every person who believes in a book could see this.
Their were a few times I would have asked some different questions, but I think the talk was pretty good. I'm not optimistic he's going to walk away thinking much about the tough questions though. We never know though. ;)
violet4151 what questions would you have asked?
I wish I had known about his method when I was younger, because I often invited Mormons into my house specifically to tell them about the real life of Joseph Smith and how absurd I considered their Religion to be, I did not rant at them but I was really a meanie as I look back on it, if I had had this method it would have been much more valuable to them, they were always very polite but I am sure my words were like water on a duck's back.
I run into these mormon kids all over the world and they're always really incredibly nice, but the indoctrination is so strong.
Super creepy fact though? They're not allowed to be alone when on mission, and their partners are supposed to report in on them if they perceive them to be showing doubts in the faith.
Best of luck boys!
They need to spend 10% of their income to the church. Their leaders cannot afford to loose members. They would need to look for a proper job then.
Great discussion! If the book is not true, and God isn't the source, why would you rely on God to tell you if it's true or not?
Adam SE I’m not sure I understand this question. God is sovereign from the book.
(If this is role playing) How do we know the book is reliably true?