I still adore the Series S. The fact that you can get a 1080p 60fps machine that has the rare ray-tracing option for $299 or less is just astounding value.
The PS4 Slim has been just about that the past 6 years but has constant GOTY nominated games since then. Maybe wait for those actual current gen games to see how weak series s truly is. Forspoken goes down to 720p on PS5. That pretty much confirms it will never come to series x..... because series s exists. That won't stop people claiming it was "paid to be kept off Xbox" for years to come. Expect this sort of situation for the rest of the gen. Like the fans that were begging 343i to drop the Xbone version of Infinite AFTER the ingame reveal, fans will be begging for series s to be canned.
@@andrewsqual Forspoken is a garbage game that barely runs on an RTX4080. Bad optimization is not the fault of Series S. Yes, Series S will be this generation’s bottleneck/minimum spec, but every generation has those. The Series S is basically a PC with a Ryzen 7 3700, an RX6500XT, an NVME and 8GB of RAM. That’s not a super powered machine by any metric, but if you can’t develop a game and get it to run at 1080p 30fps with the help of things like FSR, you’re just a bad developer. Nothing more to it.
@@fancyslimoshady forspoken drops below 60fps on the rtx 4090 at 4k ultra lmao. It's like mandatory to use dlss otherwise it drops in combat which is atrocious.
I’ve been fascinated by ray-tracing since learning about it in the 1980s on the Commodore Amiga, where you’d have to leave your computer on overnight just to render a single frame! My how far we’ve come.
I wasn't around back then to experience the supposed long wait times computers forced. If you compare console power now vs then it's crazy how far tech has advanced. The NES/famicom had under 10kb of ram. Our current consoles are literally a million times more powerful 40 years later.
@Intrepidation The PS5 has only twice as much unified RAM as the PS4, compare this to NES/SNES RAM. NES 2 KB RAM + 2 KB VRAM, SNES 128 KB RAM + 64 KB VRAM. So PS5 has a only a 2x increase while SNES had a 64x/32x increase. Progress has almost stopped.
@@cube2fox RAM is only one metric, the other performance metrics between PS4 and PS5 are broader than that. Overall the PS5 is much more than twice as powerful. However, there's still a fundamental truth to what you're saying: we are getting increasingly diminishing returns over time. And a doubling of power was more obvious back then, and is less obvious now. That's one of the reasons I favour the Series S, in fact. The Series X is a lot more powerful... but not so much so that I notice a gigantic difference in motion. There is a difference, for sure, but not enough to make it worth paying more for the hardware, using more electricity, generating more heat, and having the box take up a lot more space. At least not for me. The Series X is more powerful, but the Series S is more efficient.
@Steven Hurdle well I personally do not think the Xbox series X is a well-balanced of a console. Yes it does have a lot of horsepower No Doubt but the fact is the fuel tank in the fuel lines that feed that engine or actually weak.. I mean if you can imagine putting the PS5s M.2 an memory bandwidth 5500Mhz(to XSXs what CFExpress Style 2300Mhz) To Xboxs little bit beefer CPU/GPU combo then you would have a very well-balanced console with absolutely zero bottlenecks. having a powerful engine really means nothing if your fuel lines and tank can't really feed it well. You can really look at RAM as Your Fuel injectors.. Mashing them to would make a very well-balanced console. Not sitting here saying that either of them are slouch. But also sitting here saying that it's only got 2x the capacity or power Like thats Nothing is Dumb. It's not necessarily diminishing returns when the Hardware you're basing it off of is a lot more powerful than the consoles of 30 years ago. Technically it would be twice that of the PS4 Pro
@@RedPillAlways It'll be interesting to see if the Series X memory bandwidth gets tweaked in a refresh, similarly to how Microsoft tweaked the GPU power a little between the original One and the One S. There's a precedent for that, at any rate. As for the rest, I think the point of diminishing returns is there due to things getting so good that it's hard for the average person to differentiate. Does Forza Horizon 5 look *that* much better on Series X than Series S? Or even One X for that matter? It looks really great on all of the above. As for Series S, an extra GB or two of RAM would do it an amazing amount of good, that seems to be its main bottleneck. Might get that in a Series S refresh down the road. It'll be interesting to see.
Yeah, I still don’t see the attraction of RT at all. I think its neat that technology can achieve it but so far current applications of it are rather… boring. Personally I don’t like the hyper realism track game development has taken at all. It leads to so many titles feels so similar. We don’t experience unique art styles and animations as much in major AAA releases. Its also taken its toll on performance (with RT particularly often limiting how well a game can actually perform).
"If you watch this video without watching some of their other stuff, it's a pretty good video. They're not wrong about what they say, and they do great work. But they have such a ridiculous PC bias against console, that it gets really grating to watch. If you watch their recent steam deck video, they practically show that the deck is already struggling to keep up with big games one year later. And they end up basically saying "The Deck is a great value if you're willing to make smart compromises" or something. Whereas here, in the xbox series s video, they don't really mention the astounding value you get for this thing. Which yeah man, I really want to drop half a thousand dollars on a 2 pound handheld marketed for its performance, that will deliver a stunning 23 fps at 620p in the latest games. And all you have to do is 'make smart compromises'! What a great deal!"
@@OneLastScholar it's not DF having PC bias, it's you having console bias. Steam Deck was never marketed as a machine made for next-gen games specifically and it still offers unprecedented value in handheld PC space along with the game library that crushes any console in existence. Series S is a great value machine, but there are major cutbacks that make it less than desirable for a lot of people in the long run. And it's not just graphics and performance: lack of a disc drive, mere 512GB of storage with stupidly expensive expansion cards. Series S owners just have to stop getting defensive every time someone dares to criticize their console.
Steam Deck IS marketed as capable of running the heavyhitters out there. From the Steam Deck website, Hardware tab: >We partnered with AMD to create Steam Deck's custom APU, optimized for handheld gaming. It is a Zen 2 + RDNA 2 powerhouse, delivering more than enough performance to run the latest AAA games in a very efficient power envelope. "Latest AAA games" = what you call "next-gen games". And you know what? The Steam Deck, unlike you, did not lie. It does run great, you just have to mind the possible compromises. Same thing with the XSS, plain and simple. Hopefully DF coverage becomes more impartial.
I'm actually curious on regards if Dead Space Remake will run well on Series S, they were very vague on regards to it. Hopefully being a next gen only title they can actually put the Series S hardware to good use.
I don't think it's possible to release a game in Series X and not Series S, I don't think Microsoft would allow that. And really there's no reason for it, the Series S is the exact same hardware with less memory and a cutback GPU, the rest of the specs are identical. Worst case they lock framerates to 30 and reduce graphical fidelity, but there's no reason a game that runs on Series X, couldn't run on Series S. Keep in mind PC GPU hardware, the Series S is roughly comparable to a 1660? The most popular GPU's on steam survey are GTX 970, GTX 1060, and GTX 1650, all of which are in same ballpark as Series S GPU. Ergo if it can't run on series S, it can't run on most PC's and that would greatly limit sales.
I'll take the 4K resolution with no Ray Tracing WAY above the 512p on Series S with Ray Tracing. Which I could care less about. Just my opinion. I rarely use it, since I'm more interested in playing the game, not staring at it. lol
Last gen game. What do you think series s/x only games are going to be like? Oh right, Xbox haven't really released a single game to date that is series s/x only and also sheds all doubt of series s development problems.
Metro exodus EE is still the most impressive implementation of RT in gaming with an excellent picture quality/performance ratio. A game that runs entirely on RTGI works well even on average hardware. While new titles drop performance in half due to several puddles with RT reflections on the screen.
Yeah, too bad the series S version has such a low resolution that it doesn't matter. RT is not worth it when your game is running at a lower resolution than the fucking xbox 360
Leaning more casually on the DF fanbase, this is the kind of videos I anticipate most out of you guys. Raytracing has always been exciting to me, and its finally at the point where its looking really impressive. Now you guys made a comprehensive list to back up my current respect for raytracing. Love it!! Glad I watched this at 1440 too at first at 480p I wasn't impressed with the visuals, the resolution is crucial.
Because the details are so fine with newer games, some times it takes me a minute of examination before I really appreciate the difference. I understand it might be considered priming your opinion, but if you labeled the ones you personally find graphically improved, it would be easier for me to know which side to observe first consistently. :) edit: I guess in this case X is of course objectively better than S my bad. But in other videos
@@fionnmaccuill415 You can see why, AMD is far better bang for your buck, but Nvidia are going from strength to strength when it comes to Ray Tracing and AI upscaling.
It will be interesting to see if the RT shadows that's coming to Halo Infinite will be coming to the Series S (or even X). I assume it will only be in the 30 FPS mode, and who knows how nice it will be.
RTGI is the only thing Series S absolutely needs to be able to do. RT reflections are basically never necessary for gameplay, but when you have fully dynamic environments, e.g. Fortnite, RTGI really shines.
I think raytracing will become more common on Series S when we get engines that are made to abuse directstorage to pull data off the storage in realtime. With this, you can lower the memory footprint of the game assets by just having the absolutely necessary for the current frame pretty loaded in memory, and free RAM for bvh structures and the such. But current generation engines are meant to have minutes of data in the ram at all times, as the hard drive storages they're designed for take minutes to load the data in.
@@upmain193 It's the list of triangles the GPU will work with for the raytracing in a structure that makes easier to the GPU to work with. The whole "raytracing" thing is just you tell the GPU "vegeta, please tell me the list of triangles that the line from point A to point B intersect!", and then the GPU will run thru the BVH stupidly fast and tell you exactly which got hit. A very simple example on how this is used is that when you're drawing a pixel of the character, you make a line between that pixel of the character and the light and ask the GPU if there is anything in the way. and if there is, you don't draw the light on that pixel of the character. Do it for every pixel you drew and you got a very sharp shadow cast.
Not 100% true though. Ray tracing is super demanding on the gpu and amd's first attempt at rt was pretty weak. An rx 6500xt is more powerful than the series s and even on that gpu if you try to run majority of the games with the lowest rt setting it's well below 30fps on lower settings @1080p. Direct storage isn't gonna help with fps and no amount of memory optimization is gonna help.
@@kylelochner5686 depends on what RT effect you're trying to achieve. as i said earlier, it is just a ray on triangle search, not a complete lighting solution, so it is possible that more lightweight techniques get invented using the thing when it gets so widespread you can base your engine on it. RT shadow casting is something i'm pretty sure all engines will adopt as standard in the future as the current pixel shader solution is just horrible to work with and probably heavier than a no bounce shadow solution.
You've really helped me out with these thorough Series S videos. Picking one up this weekend so i don't waste my active Game Pass Ultimate sub after selling my laptop. With limited shelf space, no 4K TV and a big chunk of my backlog being on Switch, Series S looks perfect for some on-and-off Game Pass gaming.
I think 720p can still look very good, it is sucha jump from the 640x480 of the distant past, in fact I stream most of my stuff at 720 to cut down on data usage. 720p can still get the job done I think.
@@Shredder2898 I think covering a game that looks this good and runs this smoothly in both the X and S is absolutely worth it. Even more so knowing that it was shadow dropped out of nowhere and feels super polished.
Amen, I play on the One X and the games look absolutely stunning at Native 4K, or close enough. I'll never get rid of it for older titles, and new ones that still release. I'll use the PS5 for everything else. IMO The Series S should have never been, just a money making scheme by MS. AGAIN. Sad.
@@drummer7557 I don't think it's a money making scheme. It's just providing a product to different market segment. Sony should have also done the same. A lot of people will be left behind just because of price tag.
My ps5 gives me a worse experience my 55 inch 1080p Tv. Pathetic console locks me out of 4k mode for all my ps4 pro enhanced games and even some of my native ps5 games. May God punish Sony
@@lordspalse0062 so u have a 1080p tv but you complaining because you are not getting 4K? Are u serious ?you need a 4K tv to play at 4K in a ps5 ,I can’t believe there are some people that dumb that has a 1080p with ps5 and then complain why they cannot get 4k
Again an appreciated Video from DF. To correct some important points though, which are sadly repeated in many videos: 1:37 Metro Exodus EE's global illumination system is actually not fully based on per pixel RTGI, but uses a combo with DDGI. The later is based on light probes, which is a bad GI hack. That and the lack of RTAO add to a overlit area GI impression, which is pretty bad in comparison to true sophisticated per pixel path tracing.
Do we really need a DF analysis to tell us a budget console isn't the best option for the highest fidelity/visual quality gaming? Seems kind of a no brainer. The Series S missing raytracing features is not a problem it's just targeting a different market yet DF keeps insisting this is an issue.
@@sneikiusas can run actual games in 1080/1440p at 60fps, without RT for sure but burn 100w less than seriesX and PS5. SeriesS + gamepass, make it the perfect low budget machine.
@@sneikiusas I'm 50 years old, snes was my first console, and so far I have never be blown away by a machine that cheap. I am very aware it is not the most powerful system available. That is not what this machine is about.
dude series s run mostly between 500-900p without ray tracing there are only few handful of games above 1080 p like he said in the video there are only few ray tracing games and almost all of them are old games that got ray tracing added later on. but when it comes to new games series s dont have any ray tracing option but what ever if u keep fooling u self like that there is no helping
Why does it always seem to be RAM in the end? Consider what consoles like the original Xbox or even the Wii could have done had they had a gigabyte of RAM. History repeats itself.
I'm amazed RT even exists on the Series S. It's a fabulous machine for £250. One of the best bargains in gaming. I've been very impressed when I've used my kids' Series S.
Very interesting video as i have been pretty frustrated with so many games skipping ray tracing on my Series S. Hope the Dead Space Remake supports it.
Right now, the kings of RT are Nvidia. People can hate the company as much as they want but they own the best RT right now. AMD plain an simple, does not very well with RT. Their RT sucks and that is why their 3D cards are cheaper, because their main focus is not RT, but overall performance, price and value. That been said, do you know what GPU do both PS5 and Series consoles have? AMD. And even worse, it is a watered down version of AMD gpus. You expect RT from a scaled down gpu, which never was good at RT to begin with . Want RT? get a PC. You cant afford it? just forget about RT, even more if you only play on a series s. Superior consoles like PS5 and Series X have to chose from Performance, 4k or RT....one at a time. You run a Series S and want it all? Even better consoles dont have the hardware, you only have a Series S. Forget it.
The PS5 and Series X do not use ray tracing in many games, it's unrealistic to expect a 300 dollar console to use ray tracing in more than a few games.
@@fernandomartinez4486 i get what you are saying and offcourse i dont expect a top notch ray tracing experience on my console but my disappointment stems from seeing what is possible on Series S as Metro Exodus clearly shows (and at 60 fps!).
@@TruTrae My point is that its now somewhat of a trend to skip the Series S with RT features while certain games in this video show the Series S can handle it when devs take some time for it.
@You're not built different, you are pathetic! Defending a billion-dollar corporation that has released a console using false marketing. Maybe they should have added this *only 16 games in 2 years* disclaimer in the ads they were running.
I personally love my Series S, and to be honest, after 2+ years of me using my PS5 almost exclusively, I have been slipping into using my Series S more. Being able to not have to stream my old games that I love playing is huge.
Considering it's a $299 console and that RDNA2's implementation of RT is a wee bit shite to begin with, the S certainly puts up a valiant effort. I thought Control supported at least some RT features on the S. Looks like it does. I'll have to do a side-by-side with the PC version.
As cool as this graphical feature can look, it's embarrassing that a few years after its first implementations it still compromises performance in games so badly.
I'm quite happy to stick with my Series S until RTGI or RT AO become more common in games. I think by that point the limitations of the S will be evident and it'll be a good idea to upgrade. At the moment, it doesn't seem to be a transformative experience when running with just RT shadows or reflections and I don't feel like I'm missing out on too much, at least at a living room distance.
I barely think RT is worth it on my PC so it doesn't seem like a big deal that it isn't prominent on the series S. I would certainly like it to be because player options are always good but I don't think that most people in the market for a $300 or less console will see this as a deal breaker. Still, it's very impressive how well Metro Exodus both looks and performs. I would love to see more games achieve that on all hardware.
RTGI and RTAO are the best ray tracing solutions for the current gen consoles in combination with fsr and vrs. I hope that the lack of ram os series s can be softned with the implement of xbox velocitity and sample feedback streaming in the future games.
Going from PS5 to my OLED Switch I never miss “ray tracing”. I put it in quotes because I have yet to see a section in a PS5 game that made me think OH COOL other than the blood filled basement in Resident Evil VIII, that part does look better than the last gen offerings. Congratulations I guess… My favorite thing about the new gen is little to know load times, I can’t go back to my One X at all.
DF foundry videos are always great and the work use put in to each video is appreciated massively… but let’s be honest most people who buy the series s aren’t that interested in ray tracing and just want a cheaper entry to the Xbox eco system
true but for 199 you cant beat the Series S value, I got one for my friend and they love it and try to brag to me how close the visuals are compared to my pc and Series X and its actually true, only way I can see a difference is if I stand one inch away from the screen and analyze the pixel count, All of her games run at 1440p/60 and I run games at 4k/60 and I cant tell a difference at all. For 199 its a killer deal and only gonna get better with time when games start using rt better
@@nick13b You can definitely tell the difference unless you've got really bad eyesight. I got a like new Series X for $300 and it's nice not having an inferior console.
Laziness (or rather overly crunched) developers are mostly to blame here. The system is capable but while we still have 7 versions of each game to optimize XSS won't be a priority
Missing Series S feature that is a game-breaker for me is the lack of an optical drive. If Microsoft ever releases an external blu-ray drive for this console, I will seriously consider getting it.
In a perfect world, they should have matched the RAM allotment in the Series X, just wouldn't need the massive 560GB bandwidth for the S. If they had done that, I'm betting most of the devs concerns would be non-existent, or more likely the ones complaining would just double down on the 4TF of GPU power.
Imo metro Exodus EE still has the best RTGI implementation, i couldn't find any other games that have such quality and transformative effect, and it's crazy that it runs at 60fps on series s, 4A games devs went god mode to create this masterpiece
@@drummer7557 yeah but we're talking about a full ray tracing experience with a rock solid frame rate, forspoken runs at an unstable 60fps at 720p on ps5 and series x 💀 I'm curious to see how it runs on series s
His conclusion is spot on - if the game supports Ray Tracing @ 30fps, it's almost irrelevant as players will always opt for 60 fps. From a technical standpoin, it's impressive that the Xbox Series S can support ray tracing but at the same time, it's a moot point. It should be noted that the PS5 digital does not suffer from such issues and is just $100 more with double the available storage. Microsoft has gotten a lot of praise for the XSS but it's probably Sony that has really earned that praise and delivered the superior disc-less solution.
Is this new Console Generation the worst in gaming history ? we are bombarded with mid mediocre games which are on top of that plagued with microtransactions and the price is a joke 70 euro is just a joke
I think hardware is better than last gen. Games are always pretty much broken at launch for a year and there's not a lot of innovation that's for sure. Mostly just store fronts. I've been going back and playing old games.
for me raytracing is awesome to look at but at a cost of blurry image n visual artifacts+glitches, thus usually i turn it off. raytracing is indeed the new graphical leap in gaming but as it stands currently, its just not mature yet. and when the top dog of gpu market have to resort to 'fake frame' ai algorithm to have playable framerate, its a hard pass for me. its fun to turn it one once in awhile but its definitely not a deal breaker for me to not have it.
@@drummer7557 Series S isnt made for sweaty try hards like you, its more for casuals and girls and kids/moms and whatnot, my lady friend loves her Series S to death cause she can game, watch shows and movies, and the web browser is so good you can do cloud gaming, use ms word and powerpoint, check email etc with a keyboard and mouse for a 199 dollar console, it sure can do alot
@@Coolmouse777 Which is no where near as good. DLSS is literal hardware acceleration. FSR is just lowering the resolution and playing a bunch of tricks your average moron won't notice. Those that do FSR sucks. But DLSS can look very passable. Its a valid thing to want.
@@Wylie288 personally have used only DLSS, but there are many comparison video between DLSS and FSR on youtube and main conclusion from them that DLSS is better it almost all ways, but FSR(version 2.0 and above) not so behind and still can be useble. personally have used only DLSS, but there are many comparison video between DLSS and FSR on youtube and main conclusion from them that DLSS is better it almost all ways, but FSR(version 2.0 and above) not so behind and still can be usable.
So, gamers first issue was high FPS, so we got it. Then it was high FPS with high graphical fidality, so we got it, sort of. Now, it's RT, which eats up a huge chunk of processing power...
I don't get why Microsoft didn't go for 12Go of RAM on the S. I mean it's cheaper with less ram but developpers have to cutback memory on the S relative to Xbox ONE X and sometimes the ONE X perform better. But developper work is key here it's multiplying platform which in console developpement is not great. Otherwise S is quite good value.
@@hbala24 true but the 1440/1080P is supposedly for Xbox series title, many development made for the xbox one X cannot be use without some touch to memory management the S would otherwise been able to use Xbox one X title without much modifications otherwise. Please your developpers, you please your consumers...
@@The_Independant_Pit Yeah that’s an annoying thing, especially for some Xbox one games that are below 1080p. Battlefield 4 runs at 720p I believe. Since the Backwards Compatibility team isn’t adding anymore titles, I think it would be great if they started focusing on enhancing Xbox one titles for the X and S. Resolution boost and FPS boost if possible.
I got a used but like-new Series X for $300 with a few games. The system is dropping in price so fast since everyone only wants PS5. Ironically I did the same thing with the One X. $300 for a $500 console is the way to go. Especially when it's not a gimped console like the One S or Series S.
No, i have a 3050 and it's more powerfull and offers more performance on similar settings, but the Series S price, optimization and decent CPU makes up vastly for that gap.
Series S's main selling point is not ray-tracing. People pretty much buy the console because of the lower price which makes a perfect Gamepass machine. I knoe people who have a Playstation 5 and bought a Series S lol (and probably wouldn't even bother with Xbox otherwise).
Even on Nvidia, RT is just too punishing on performance to be worth it 90% of the time. I really hope that if devs do RT at 30 that they'll let us turn it off and play at 60.
The point is that more games will be built with RT lighting as a baseline graphical feature. And the narrative over the prior 2 years has been that the S can't do RT, which will make the S either obsolete or will hold back games this generation. But as this video helps to show is that it is possible in most situations with the right optimization - although still paired back.
I think we will need a pro model from MS and Sony largely just for RT. Wonder if AMD can do a custom GPU with 2~4 RT cores per CU. RDNA2 has 2 AI cores per CU, so we could see FSR more similar to DLSS so that would help too.
That wont happen at all theyd rather spend money on more gpu power than make a gamble like that and ms prolly wont have a pro this gen only ps5 since they already released two models with different power levels
Should have just removed the disc drive and sold it for $100 less like the PS5 did, no compromising on the hardware. a few devs from sony exclusives have talked about how much they love not having to downscale or gimp quality due to having to release it for weaker hardware.
They've claimed that series x is doing 4k 60fps with ray tracing during gameplay but I bet it's a dynamic resolution. If that's the case and the engine is optimised well enough then I can see the series s also getting some ray tracing also probably much lower quality reflections to fit within the vram buffer.
Kind of funny… yeah this is a system that will not be top notch, but it will be fun for you guys to compare it with everything else over the next few years.
I have a series x and I love it. In some ways it’s already shown me it’s more powerful that I thought it’d be. But I’ve learned it is not really a raytracing capable machine for me. I hoped FSR 2.1 might bring huge changes like a 40hz+ RT mode for Cyberpunk or 80hz+ performance mode but it made no noticeable difference so; RT is very limited and on AAA it’s 30hz and Fortnight is shimiering and pop-up-riddled clearly demonstrating UE5’s limits with that small open world that doesn’t even have any AI. PS5 and XSX are cool consoles but aren’t good RT machines so XSS has no chance.
Most devs just aim for the standard 30 and 60 modes and don't mess around with fsr or 40 and 120 modes very often. Simply because most people don't have 120hz screens yet so they are putting dev time into modes that most players will never touch.
@@JudeTheRUclipsPoopersubscribe well that sucks and lack of interest in optimising from devs would be just another reason these consoles are very far from the cutting edge. But to my eyes, Cyberpunk in performance mode looks absolutely amazing. 2077 and Requiem are the most "next gen" or current gen experiences on my console, to my eyes and if they represent the standard go8ng forward then I'm happy. (And requiem is the game that taught me that 40hz is actually worth it for me and a much nicer experience than 30. WAY better than i thought it'd be)
@@JudeTheRUclipsPoopersubscribe But also those devs are nuts because 120hz is going to be standard over three next 5 to 10 years so they're shortening their games lives by not future proofing.
12:27 Forza "Real Time Cube Map" I remember when they updated the RT settings in Horizon 5 for PC and I drove around thinking the cube map (or some part of it) was the new RT effect. That cube map is one of the best examples of reflections I've ever seen, reflections always curve accurately to the shape of the car, and it does not use ray tracing. This is another prime example of why we don't need RT Reflections, it's just not an practical improvement. Sad reality is the RT reflections we do get in Forza Horizon 5 don't reflect the environment at all, it's only car-self-reflection, so there was really no point in enabling the feature to begin with.
Its a matter of truly next gen games pop up.. The console is more than capable of Raytracing, this is fact. If Forza Motorsport came with that kind of RT they are showing us (of course, not like Series X but with Raytracing mid-low settings at least), you can expect the exclusives that offer in majority to have on S and this is were MS can deliver, show the RT on the two consoles to exhibit the power of S/X but show the better one on the most powerful console of this generation, Series X.. Devs have their deals too, to not implement fully or even to not support Series S in full aspect because media especially the PS ones doenst want the XSS to succeed..
I had a 3080, 3080 Ti and now got a 4080. There was only one game where I felt like I had to have Ray tracing turned on (Metro Exodus/Enhanced Edition) Sure cyberpunk with ray tracing can add to the visuals but I didn't find it game changing at all. I'd always rather aim for 4K 120 FPS or close too using VRR
It still feels like the fetish for ray tracing is horribly misplaced. Performance is more important than graphics fidelity 10 times out of 10. Baked in solutions may not always be the most accurate but are still impressive when it's well implemented. Who cares if the light bounce is correct and the shadows are accurate when the requirements to get a good stable frame rate borders on the ridiculous? Then to have the audacity to try to push 4K AND ray tracing? It's bonkers man. Can we at least get the damn frame rate stable before jumping out of the jet without a parachute to support ray tracing?
1) It almost like a vanishingly small number of developers (questionably chosen) whining about Series 1 S when they have to support 4 last gen machines sounds questionable, especially when many more, less questionably 'chosen', developers argued back. 2) All three next gen boxes are held back one way or another by supporting last gen, and the S requiring a bit more of dev mind, is likely held back more than the other two (who can just brute force some additional next gen features onto what is basically a last gen game). 3) Devs having to be cleverer with the HDD tech in the S will pay dividends to the X and 5 (and future consoles, I would imagine, since I doubt HDD regression will happen, but who knows) 4) DF doesn't need to muse about the if's or fud things up (which are want to do sometimes), you can talk to any number of devs and get a much better survey than a respected journalist who happens to have some bias and/or axes to grind. So why don't you?
Also - lol at some of the verbiage chosen - the next gen Hellblade patch is an "olive branch" to Series S? A first party studio supporting both next gen boxes is not an olive branch, it's part of their job and they got whatever they could get given budget and certain assumptions at the time. Burying narratives like that into subtle editorialization is part and parcel for this channel - most viewers won't see you do it, but their brains will - which is the point, perhaps even accidentally sometimes, so to speak.
RE3 rt mode on series s is smooth as butter feels like 60 its a shame it couldnt be the same for re2 its running like 30-40 .. and on top of that RE3 has more impressive reflections as well. Very weird
Even the X disappoints. The only game that impressed me was Plague Requiem. I remember Halo 4, Gears of War 2, and Alan Wake blowing me away on the 360. Grid was amazing on the Xbox One. RE Remake and Zero were visual stunners on the Gamecube.
@@flyingplantwhale545 ratchet n clank rift apart, demons souls and HFW have already proven its more than just that tho...the level of detail and effects are insane on these titles..and they said they are barely scratching the surface with those games visually.
I just don't care about 4K, less about Ray tracing. I just want to play good games. But waiting for Unreal 5, we had that Matrix experience and it looked great in Series S even though it was a beta and little optimized version. So I hope Series S will shut a lot of mouths in the near future.
Xbox Series S is the generation back holder! It annoys me that cross-platform games have to take into account to run on a console that is 3 times weaker than Series X and 2,5 times weaker than PS5.
@@MarcoAurelio-hn1ys If you cant afford something, you cant just buy something cheaper and pretend that you actually got what you wanted. You just waste money on something completely different. If you want a gaming console BUY A GAMING CONSOLE. Not some cheap, trash that can barely run games. It's literally ruining this whole generation of games. Instead of creating NEW INNOVATIVE GAMES Devs have to keep making old crap that runs on the series S. If this piece of sh*t box didnt exist we would actually get NEW, BOUNDRY PUSHING games. Instead of the same crap we've already been getting the last 10 years.
I still adore the Series S. The fact that you can get a 1080p 60fps machine that has the rare ray-tracing option for $299 or less is just astounding value.
This especially in a time of economic instability and inflation
The PS4 Slim has been just about that the past 6 years but has constant GOTY nominated games since then.
Maybe wait for those actual current gen games to see how weak series s truly is.
Forspoken goes down to 720p on PS5. That pretty much confirms it will never come to series x..... because series s exists. That won't stop people claiming it was "paid to be kept off Xbox" for years to come. Expect this sort of situation for the rest of the gen.
Like the fans that were begging 343i to drop the Xbone version of Infinite AFTER the ingame reveal, fans will be begging for series s to be canned.
@@andrewsqual Forspoken is a garbage game that barely runs on an RTX4080. Bad optimization is not the fault of Series S. Yes, Series S will be this generation’s bottleneck/minimum spec, but every generation has those. The Series S is basically a PC with a Ryzen 7 3700, an RX6500XT, an NVME and 8GB of RAM. That’s not a super powered machine by any metric, but if you can’t develop a game and get it to run at 1080p 30fps with the help of things like FSR, you’re just a bad developer. Nothing more to it.
@@andrewsqual Dude Forspoken is the most rushed and unoptimized game since Cyberpunk
@@fancyslimoshady forspoken drops below 60fps on the rtx 4090 at 4k ultra lmao. It's like mandatory to use dlss otherwise it drops in combat which is atrocious.
I’ve been fascinated by ray-tracing since learning about it in the 1980s on the Commodore Amiga, where you’d have to leave your computer on overnight just to render a single frame! My how far we’ve come.
I wasn't around back then to experience the supposed long wait times computers forced. If you compare console power now vs then it's crazy how far tech has advanced. The NES/famicom had under 10kb of ram. Our current consoles are literally a million times more powerful 40 years later.
@Intrepidation The PS5 has only twice as much unified RAM as the PS4, compare this to NES/SNES RAM. NES 2 KB RAM + 2 KB VRAM, SNES 128 KB RAM + 64 KB VRAM. So PS5 has a only a 2x increase while SNES had a 64x/32x increase. Progress has almost stopped.
@@cube2fox RAM is only one metric, the other performance metrics between PS4 and PS5 are broader than that. Overall the PS5 is much more than twice as powerful. However, there's still a fundamental truth to what you're saying: we are getting increasingly diminishing returns over time. And a doubling of power was more obvious back then, and is less obvious now.
That's one of the reasons I favour the Series S, in fact. The Series X is a lot more powerful... but not so much so that I notice a gigantic difference in motion. There is a difference, for sure, but not enough to make it worth paying more for the hardware, using more electricity, generating more heat, and having the box take up a lot more space. At least not for me. The Series X is more powerful, but the Series S is more efficient.
@Steven Hurdle well I personally do not think the Xbox series X is a well-balanced of a console. Yes it does have a lot of horsepower No Doubt but the fact is the fuel tank in the fuel lines that feed that engine or actually weak.. I mean if you can imagine putting the PS5s M.2 an memory bandwidth 5500Mhz(to XSXs what CFExpress Style 2300Mhz) To Xboxs little bit beefer CPU/GPU combo then you would have a very well-balanced console with absolutely zero bottlenecks. having a powerful engine really means nothing if your fuel lines and tank can't really feed it well. You can really look at RAM as Your Fuel injectors.. Mashing them to would make a very well-balanced console. Not sitting here saying that either of them are slouch. But also sitting here saying that it's only got 2x the capacity or power Like thats Nothing is Dumb. It's not necessarily diminishing returns when the Hardware you're basing it off of is a lot more powerful than the consoles of 30 years ago. Technically it would be twice that of the PS4 Pro
@@RedPillAlways It'll be interesting to see if the Series X memory bandwidth gets tweaked in a refresh, similarly to how Microsoft tweaked the GPU power a little between the original One and the One S. There's a precedent for that, at any rate. As for the rest, I think the point of diminishing returns is there due to things getting so good that it's hard for the average person to differentiate. Does Forza Horizon 5 look *that* much better on Series X than Series S? Or even One X for that matter? It looks really great on all of the above.
As for Series S, an extra GB or two of RAM would do it an amazing amount of good, that seems to be its main bottleneck. Might get that in a Series S refresh down the road. It'll be interesting to see.
Am i the only one who doesnt mind not having raytracing? Its pretty cool to see what this 300usd console can do. Literally the cost of a switch.
I always opt for performance 💟
RT drops your resolution but I play in performance mode anyway
You can have it for 250$ with extra controller if you catch it in sales
Yeah, I still don’t see the attraction of RT at all. I think its neat that technology can achieve it but so far current applications of it are rather… boring. Personally I don’t like the hyper realism track game development has taken at all. It leads to so many titles feels so similar. We don’t experience unique art styles and animations as much in major AAA releases. Its also taken its toll on performance (with RT particularly often limiting how well a game can actually perform).
Depend for how long you are planning to keep the console ,I’m sure in 3-4 years raytracing would be the standard
I’m loving these videos that DF have been putting out for this little guy
Sometimes a console is just a funny little guy
"If you watch this video without watching some of their other stuff, it's a pretty good video. They're not wrong about what they say, and they do great work.
But they have such a ridiculous PC bias against console, that it gets really grating to watch. If you watch their recent steam deck video, they practically show that the deck is already struggling to keep up with big games one year later. And they end up basically saying "The Deck is a great value if you're willing to make smart compromises" or something. Whereas here, in the xbox series s video, they don't really mention the astounding value you get for this thing.
Which yeah man, I really want to drop half a thousand dollars on a 2 pound handheld marketed for its performance, that will deliver a stunning 23 fps at 620p in the latest games. And all you have to do is 'make smart compromises'! What a great deal!"
@@OneLastScholar it's not DF having PC bias, it's you having console bias. Steam Deck was never marketed as a machine made for next-gen games specifically and it still offers unprecedented value in handheld PC space along with the game library that crushes any console in existence. Series S is a great value machine, but there are major cutbacks that make it less than desirable for a lot of people in the long run. And it's not just graphics and performance: lack of a disc drive, mere 512GB of storage with stupidly expensive expansion cards. Series S owners just have to stop getting defensive every time someone dares to criticize their console.
I thought you were talking about Oliver for a second 😂
Steam Deck IS marketed as capable of running the heavyhitters out there. From the Steam Deck website, Hardware tab:
>We partnered with AMD to create Steam Deck's custom APU, optimized for handheld gaming. It is a Zen 2 + RDNA 2 powerhouse, delivering more than enough performance to run the latest AAA games in a very efficient power envelope.
"Latest AAA games" = what you call "next-gen games". And you know what? The Steam Deck, unlike you, did not lie. It does run great, you just have to mind the possible compromises. Same thing with the XSS, plain and simple. Hopefully DF coverage becomes more impartial.
I'm actually curious on regards if Dead Space Remake will run well on Series S, they were very vague on regards to it. Hopefully being a next gen only title they can actually put the Series S hardware to good use.
Dead space (the original) runs perfectly well on series S and hasn't aged a day, I don't see why anybody would bother with the remake
@@glowerworm Easy money in a trending genre + Frostbite training for Motive + Diehard fans like me are happy the series is alive again
@@glowerworm no one asked
@@glowerworm It's a 15 year old game, it'd be nice to play it again with updated graphics
I don't think it's possible to release a game in Series X and not Series S, I don't think Microsoft would allow that. And really there's no reason for it, the Series S is the exact same hardware with less memory and a cutback GPU, the rest of the specs are identical. Worst case they lock framerates to 30 and reduce graphical fidelity, but there's no reason a game that runs on Series X, couldn't run on Series S. Keep in mind PC GPU hardware, the Series S is roughly comparable to a 1660? The most popular GPU's on steam survey are GTX 970, GTX 1060, and GTX 1650, all of which are in same ballpark as Series S GPU. Ergo if it can't run on series S, it can't run on most PC's and that would greatly limit sales.
Can we all just appreciate Oliver’s skill in background beats. This guy has style
Yooo trueee
Get a room
Are the beats inhouse? That’d be sick
Nobody who omits Elden Ring on their GOTY list has any kind of "taste"
Yeah, he seems to know exactly how to make a video flow in such a nice way. The music choices make the video much easier to listen.
Man Metro Exodus is just pure magic. How did they make it look so great and why can't other games do the same?
I'll take the 4K resolution with no Ray Tracing WAY above the 512p on Series S with Ray Tracing. Which I could care less about. Just my opinion. I rarely use it, since I'm more interested in playing the game, not staring at it. lol
Last gen game. What do you think series s/x only games are going to be like?
Oh right, Xbox haven't really released a single game to date that is series s/x only and also sheds all doubt of series s development problems.
@@drummer7557 512p is rough, but 4k is overrated. In my experience RT adds much more to the image than 4k
@@andrewsqual you want microsoft the company owning windows to release an xbox game only ?
@@andrewsqual Deathloop and MS Flight Sim said hello
Oliver is the Swiss Army Knife of Digital Foundry, we've seen him cover a big range of content.
Metro exodus EE is still the most impressive implementation of RT in gaming with an excellent picture quality/performance ratio. A game that runs entirely on RTGI works well even on average hardware. While new titles drop performance in half due to several puddles with RT reflections on the screen.
Yeah, too bad the series S version has such a low resolution that it doesn't matter. RT is not worth it when your game is running at a lower resolution than the fucking xbox 360
@@arcticowl1091you not a comp gamer you dont get it
You simply cant beat the price of this machine to perforemance ratio. I paid $239 brand new an im loving every minute of it.
Leaning more casually on the DF fanbase, this is the kind of videos I anticipate most out of you guys. Raytracing has always been exciting to me, and its finally at the point where its looking really impressive. Now you guys made a comprehensive list to back up my current respect for raytracing. Love it!! Glad I watched this at 1440 too at first at 480p I wasn't impressed with the visuals, the resolution is crucial.
Because the details are so fine with newer games, some times it takes me a minute of examination before I really appreciate the difference. I understand it might be considered priming your opinion, but if you labeled the ones you personally find graphically improved, it would be easier for me to know which side to observe first consistently. :)
edit: I guess in this case X is of course objectively better than S my bad. But in other videos
@@fionnmaccuill415 You can see why, AMD is far better bang for your buck, but Nvidia are going from strength to strength when it comes to Ray Tracing and AI upscaling.
@@riddleiddle I wonder if that's why I've never been really impressed with ray tracing cause I've only ever seen it at 1080p before
It will be interesting to see if the RT shadows that's coming to Halo Infinite will be coming to the Series S (or even X). I assume it will only be in the 30 FPS mode, and who knows how nice it will be.
343 Should first Fix the Frame Pacing in the 30Fps mode before adding RT
Who still plays that mess? … 💀
@@Pisscan hahah yeah. But I havent even started Infinite's Campaign. When almost Everything is fixed then I am gonna play The Shit out of it.
When’s this coming? First I’ve heard of it?
@@scissortongue5772 i believe they said it in an Interview. That they will adding RT Later on. But the Release Date is not Confirmed.
The definition of "give this task to the new guy and I will review Dead Space"
/s great vid Oliver
RTGI is the only thing Series S absolutely needs to be able to do.
RT reflections are basically never necessary for gameplay, but when you have fully dynamic environments, e.g. Fortnite, RTGI really shines.
I think raytracing will become more common on Series S when we get engines that are made to abuse directstorage to pull data off the storage in realtime.
With this, you can lower the memory footprint of the game assets by just having the absolutely necessary for the current frame pretty loaded in memory, and free RAM for bvh structures and the such.
But current generation engines are meant to have minutes of data in the ram at all times, as the hard drive storages they're designed for take minutes to load the data in.
This is really interesting
@@upmain193 It's the list of triangles the GPU will work with for the raytracing in a structure that makes easier to the GPU to work with.
The whole "raytracing" thing is just you tell the GPU "vegeta, please tell me the list of triangles that the line from point A to point B intersect!", and then the GPU will run thru the BVH stupidly fast and tell you exactly which got hit.
A very simple example on how this is used is that when you're drawing a pixel of the character, you make a line between that pixel of the character and the light and ask the GPU if there is anything in the way. and if there is, you don't draw the light on that pixel of the character.
Do it for every pixel you drew and you got a very sharp shadow cast.
Bingo and that’s what people miss
Not 100% true though. Ray tracing is super demanding on the gpu and amd's first attempt at rt was pretty weak. An rx 6500xt is more powerful than the series s and even on that gpu if you try to run majority of the games with the lowest rt setting it's well below 30fps on lower settings @1080p. Direct storage isn't gonna help with fps and no amount of memory optimization is gonna help.
@@kylelochner5686 depends on what RT effect you're trying to achieve. as i said earlier, it is just a ray on triangle search, not a complete lighting solution, so it is possible that more lightweight techniques get invented using the thing when it gets so widespread you can base your engine on it.
RT shadow casting is something i'm pretty sure all engines will adopt as standard in the future as the current pixel shader solution is just horrible to work with and probably heavier than a no bounce shadow solution.
You've really helped me out with these thorough Series S videos. Picking one up this weekend so i don't waste my active Game Pass Ultimate sub after selling my laptop. With limited shelf space, no 4K TV and a big chunk of my backlog being on Switch, Series S looks perfect for some on-and-off Game Pass gaming.
If you don’t have 4K tv it’s perfect
People still have 1080p tvs? So pixelated.
@@joeydirt420 dont feel like buying a new one
@@oppium7588 when did you buy your 1080p tv? They came out well over 10years ago. Youve had 11 years to buy a 4k tv lol
@@joeydirt420 i use my dads old tv 🤣 so idk
And here I am with an Xbox Series X hooked up to a very old tv that’s stuck in 720p……
Damn.
I think 720p can still look very good, it is sucha jump from the 640x480 of the distant past, in fact I stream most of my stuff at 720 to cut down on data usage. 720p can still get the job done I think.
I really hope you guys do an analysis of Hi-Fi Rush! That game looks so good on Series X!
Looks great on the Series S too! Buttery smooth
@@Shredder2898 I think covering a game that looks this good and runs this smoothly in both the X and S is absolutely worth it. Even more so knowing that it was shadow dropped out of nowhere and feels super polished.
@@Shredder2898 you dont know there is nothing interesting - its cell shading is second to none, and I would like to hear more information on that.
It's 1440p 60fps on the series s and is absolutely stunning. Really great optimisation from the folks over at tango gameworks.
@@xBINARYGODx go watch their biomutant video to understand why its not interesting for the channel direction
People who can't enable rt in their hardware are honestly not missing much.
Amen, I play on the One X and the games look absolutely stunning at Native 4K, or close enough. I'll never get rid of it for older titles, and new ones that still release. I'll use the PS5 for everything else. IMO The Series S should have never been, just a money making scheme by MS. AGAIN. Sad.
@@drummer7557 I don't think it's a money making scheme. It's just providing a product to different market segment. Sony should have also done the same. A lot of people will be left behind just because of price tag.
If you have a 1080p screen this console has great performance, low price, RT support and a next gen SSD. A little beast. Oh and gamepass.
My ps5 gives me a worse experience my 55 inch 1080p Tv. Pathetic console locks me out of 4k mode for all my ps4 pro enhanced games and even some of my native ps5 games. May God punish Sony
@@lordspalse0062 thats actually pretty sad.
@@lordspalse0062 so u have a 1080p tv but you complaining because you are not getting 4K? Are u serious ?you need a 4K tv to play at 4K in a ps5 ,I can’t believe there are some people that dumb that has a 1080p with ps5 and then complain why they cannot get 4k
@@lordspalse0062 try changing the HDMI cord, unless it's your tv that don't support 4k
@@lordspalse0062 That makes no sense are you sure it’s not an issue on your end?
Again an appreciated Video from DF. To correct some important points though, which are sadly repeated in many videos:
1:37 Metro Exodus EE's global illumination system is actually not fully based on per pixel RTGI, but uses a combo with DDGI. The later is based on light probes, which is a bad GI hack. That and the lack of RTAO add to a overlit area GI impression, which is pretty bad in comparison to true sophisticated per pixel path tracing.
I'm looking forward to the Goldeneye comparison.
Do we really need a DF analysis to tell us a budget console isn't the best option for the highest fidelity/visual quality gaming? Seems kind of a no brainer. The Series S missing raytracing features is not a problem it's just targeting a different market yet DF keeps insisting this is an issue.
For me the S is actually the most impressive MS console so far. Good content, Oli.
Most impressive how?
@@sneikiusas can run actual games in 1080/1440p at 60fps, without RT for sure but burn 100w less than seriesX and PS5. SeriesS + gamepass, make it the perfect low budget machine.
@@sneikiusas I'm 50 years old, snes was my first console, and so far I have never be blown away by a machine that cheap. I am very aware it is not the most powerful system available. That is not what this machine is about.
To me that has been the One X still. All that graphical capability on that form factor was awesome for 2017.
dude series s run mostly between 500-900p without ray tracing there are only few handful of games above 1080 p
like he said in the video there are only few ray tracing games and almost all of them are old games that got ray tracing added later on.
but when it comes to new games series s dont have any ray tracing option
but what ever if u keep fooling u self like that there is no helping
Most impressive part of Metro Exodus on Series S, in my opinion, is that it runs at 60fps.
Completed metro exodus on series s, I'd say the 60fps was great but the raytracing didn't exactly leap out at me...
If the Series S in its lifecycle can keep at majority of titles (next gens) 1080p and at worts cases 900p, its one hell of a little machine !
At worst? A lot of titles are already below that
1080p or 900p is just the target resolution. It is a dynamic resolution. actual resolutions on Series S are very often below that
@@marcomilan3738 yes, but the resolution overall is higher by using new technology on UE 5. We have FSR 2.1 and something new by UE 5
@Jaime not really way off and DF has proven that
Some titles are already at 720p or dynamic 900p so I don’t think it will stay all the time at 1080p
Well, S sits between the R and the T, so medium results are expected.
Love Series S content.
I feel like if Xbox would have given the S 12gb of ram it would help a lot of problems
Why does it always seem to be RAM in the end? Consider what consoles like the original Xbox or even the Wii could have done had they had a gigabyte of RAM. History repeats itself.
I'm amazed RT even exists on the Series S. It's a fabulous machine for £250. One of the best bargains in gaming. I've been very impressed when I've used my kids' Series S.
Loving all these unique videos you are putting out. Great job Oliver
16:00 All this ray-tracing tech and accuracy and he still has unshaded eyes 😅
Very interesting video as i have been pretty frustrated with so many games skipping ray tracing on my Series S. Hope the Dead Space Remake supports it.
Right now, the kings of RT are Nvidia. People can hate the company as much as they want but they own the best RT right now. AMD plain an simple, does not very well with RT. Their RT sucks and that is why their 3D cards are cheaper, because their main focus is not RT, but overall performance, price and value.
That been said, do you know what GPU do both PS5 and Series consoles have? AMD. And even worse, it is a watered down version of AMD gpus. You expect RT from a scaled down gpu, which never was good at RT to begin with .
Want RT? get a PC.
You cant afford it? just forget about RT, even more if you only play on a series s. Superior consoles like PS5 and Series X have to chose from Performance, 4k or RT....one at a time. You run a Series S and want it all? Even better consoles dont have the hardware, you only have a Series S.
Forget it.
The PS5 and Series X do not use ray tracing in many games, it's unrealistic to expect a 300 dollar console to use ray tracing in more than a few games.
@@fernandomartinez4486 i get what you are saying and offcourse i dont expect a top notch ray tracing experience on my console but my disappointment stems from seeing what is possible on Series S as Metro Exodus clearly shows (and at 60 fps!).
@@TruTrae My point is that its now somewhat of a trend to skip the Series S with RT features while certain games in this video show the Series S can handle it when devs take some time for it.
@You're not built different, you are pathetic! Defending a billion-dollar corporation that has released a console using false marketing. Maybe they should have added this *only 16 games in 2 years* disclaimer in the ads they were running.
Honestly, if Ray Tracing means no 60 fps, then I'm simply not using it. I consider it a waste of resources most of the time.
True
I personally love my Series S, and to be honest, after 2+ years of me using my PS5 almost exclusively, I have been slipping into using my Series S more. Being able to not have to stream my old games that I love playing is huge.
Will be interesting to see how Forza Motorsport looks and performs on the Series S.
Oliver’s content is top-notch every time! Love it. :-)
Considering it's a $299 console and that RDNA2's implementation of RT is a wee bit shite to begin with, the S certainly puts up a valiant effort. I thought Control supported at least some RT features on the S. Looks like it does. I'll have to do a side-by-side with the PC version.
Control only has a 60fps mode on the series S. Ray tracing mode is only on the series x.
As cool as this graphical feature can look, it's embarrassing that a few years after its first implementations it still compromises performance in games so badly.
I got a barely used Series S for $150 on OfferUp and this console is truly amazing for the price.....
I'm quite happy to stick with my Series S until RTGI or RT AO become more common in games. I think by that point the limitations of the S will be evident and it'll be a good idea to upgrade. At the moment, it doesn't seem to be a transformative experience when running with just RT shadows or reflections and I don't feel like I'm missing out on too much, at least at a living room distance.
I barely think RT is worth it on my PC so it doesn't seem like a big deal that it isn't prominent on the series S. I would certainly like it to be because player options are always good but I don't think that most people in the market for a $300 or less console will see this as a deal breaker. Still, it's very impressive how well Metro Exodus both looks and performs. I would love to see more games achieve that on all hardware.
RTGI and RTAO are the best ray tracing solutions for the current gen consoles in combination with fsr and vrs. I hope that the lack of ram os series s can be softned with the implement of xbox velocitity and sample feedback streaming in the future games.
Would really like to know if we're ever going to see Minecraft RT on consoles.
Digital Series X would have made sense
Sooooo nearly 5 years later and Ray traced audio is nowhere to be heard? 😕
Superb work as always.
Videos like this are the reason why we love Digital Foundry.
Going from PS5 to my OLED Switch I never miss “ray tracing”.
I put it in quotes because I have yet to see a section in a PS5 game that made me think OH COOL other than the blood filled basement in Resident Evil VIII, that part does look better than the last gen offerings. Congratulations I guess…
My favorite thing about the new gen is little to know load times, I can’t go back to my One X at all.
DF foundry videos are always great and the work use put in to each video is appreciated massively… but let’s be honest most people who buy the series s aren’t that interested in ray tracing and just want a cheaper entry to the Xbox eco system
true but for 199 you cant beat the Series S value, I got one for my friend and they love it and try to brag to me how close the visuals are compared to my pc and Series X and its actually true, only way I can see a difference is if I stand one inch away from the screen and analyze the pixel count, All of her games run at 1440p/60 and I run games at 4k/60 and I cant tell a difference at all. For 199 its a killer deal and only gonna get better with time when games start using rt better
@@nick13b You can definitely tell the difference unless you've got really bad eyesight. I got a like new Series X for $300 and it's nice not having an inferior console.
Laziness (or rather overly crunched) developers are mostly to blame here. The system is capable but while we still have 7 versions of each game to optimize XSS won't be a priority
Ah yes. The absolute worst hardware for RT on the planet, and you know what? Its the devs to blame. It can't be amd. Who cares about facts and data!
This was great Oliver 😁👍
Missing Series S feature that is a game-breaker for me is the lack of an optical drive. If Microsoft ever releases an external blu-ray drive for this console, I will seriously consider getting it.
I doubt that they will, removing the drive is part of the reason they’re able to keep the cost down.
@@oldspice051 an optional external drive wouldn't affect the cost of a series s
buy a series X 😑
@@mikerandall273 Oh, I didn’t notice OP said “external blu ray drive.” Sorry.
Sorry OP, I didn’t see the “external” part of “external hard drive.” My mistake. 😅
Dead Space Remake console and pc videos when?
Yeah I was expecting that today as Reviewers have been playing it for several days...
Series S is a great console, but I think that they should added more RAM or at least faster RAM to the package.
In a perfect world, they should have matched the RAM allotment in the Series X, just wouldn't need the massive 560GB bandwidth for the S. If they had done that, I'm betting most of the devs concerns would be non-existent, or more likely the ones complaining would just double down on the 4TF of GPU power.
Imo metro Exodus EE still has the best RTGI implementation, i couldn't find any other games that have such quality and transformative effect, and it's crazy that it runs at 60fps on series s, 4A games devs went god mode to create this masterpiece
512p resolution at 60fps is NOT impressive dude. Sorry to burst your bubble. That's lower than anything that was ever on 360 or PS3 even. lol
@@drummer7557 yeah but we're talking about a full ray tracing experience with a rock solid frame rate, forspoken runs at an unstable 60fps at 720p on ps5 and series x 💀 I'm curious to see how it runs on series s
His conclusion is spot on - if the game supports Ray Tracing @ 30fps, it's almost irrelevant as players will always opt for 60 fps. From a technical standpoin, it's impressive that the Xbox Series S can support ray tracing but at the same time, it's a moot point.
It should be noted that the PS5 digital does not suffer from such issues and is just $100 more with double the available storage. Microsoft has gotten a lot of praise for the XSS but it's probably Sony that has really earned that praise and delivered the superior disc-less solution.
bro...I can get a Series S for 199, your telling me the ps5 is only 299? Where can I get such a deal?? Ill gladly buy like 10 at that price
Is this new Console Generation the worst in gaming history ?
we are bombarded with mid mediocre games which are on top of that plagued with microtransactions
and the price is a joke 70 euro is just a joke
Too early to tell.
I think hardware is better than last gen. Games are always pretty much broken at launch for a year and there's not a lot of innovation that's for sure. Mostly just store fronts. I've been going back and playing old games.
don't forget half the games also come out with woke propaganda and political bs in them too. yeah this gen does kinda suck tbh
Would love to see how CONTROL manages on this console with RT
Keep up with the good work Oliver, amazing content!
for me raytracing is awesome to look at but at a cost of blurry image n visual artifacts+glitches, thus usually i turn it off. raytracing is indeed the new graphical leap in gaming but as it stands currently, its just not mature yet. and when the top dog of gpu market have to resort to 'fake frame' ai algorithm to have playable framerate, its a hard pass for me. its fun to turn it one once in awhile but its definitely not a deal breaker for me to not have it.
I'm so excited and curious about GTA VI and RAGE engine in general and how it will run on consoles, especially series s.
They got rdr2 running and looking really good on the base Xbox one so I'm not concerned
great video. anticipating your dead space remake performance reviews :)
Remember pony's...... The S can't do ray tracing so just keep telling yourself that to make yourself feel better
😂😂😂😂
I absolutely love the series s. Such a capable console for only $250-$300 dollars
Fr. Got one for $120 from a friend and the performance is great
I got one and took it back, stuck with my One X and PS5 LOL. Sorry guys, not impressive.
@@drummer7557 Series S isnt made for sweaty try hards like you, its more for casuals and girls and kids/moms and whatnot, my lady friend loves her Series S to death cause she can game, watch shows and movies, and the web browser is so good you can do cloud gaming, use ms word and powerpoint, check email etc with a keyboard and mouse for a 199 dollar console, it sure can do alot
@@nick13b I couldn’t said it better.
@@nick13bthe web browser is horribly optimized, runs extremely slow, this is coming from a series s user
It's a huge shame current gen consoles can't use DLSS.
They can use FSR
@@Coolmouse777 Which is no where near as good. DLSS is literal hardware acceleration. FSR is just lowering the resolution and playing a bunch of tricks your average moron won't notice. Those that do FSR sucks. But DLSS can look very passable. Its a valid thing to want.
@@Wylie288 personally have used only DLSS, but there are many comparison video between DLSS and FSR on youtube and main conclusion from them that DLSS is better it almost all ways, but FSR(version 2.0 and above) not so behind and still can be useble.
personally have used only DLSS, but there are many comparison video between DLSS and FSR on youtube and main conclusion from them that DLSS is better it almost all ways, but FSR(version 2.0 and above) not so behind and still can be usable.
Great analysis Oliver 👍🏻
So, gamers first issue was high FPS, so we got it.
Then it was high FPS with high graphical fidality, so we got it, sort of.
Now, it's RT, which eats up a huge chunk of processing power...
I don't get why Microsoft didn't go for 12Go of RAM on the S. I mean it's cheaper with less ram but developpers have to cutback memory on the S relative to Xbox ONE X and sometimes the ONE X perform better. But developper work is key here it's multiplying platform which in console developpement is not great. Otherwise S is quite good value.
I guess since the One X was targeting 4K whereas the Series S is a baseline 1080p or 1440p.
@@hbala24 true but the 1440/1080P is supposedly for Xbox series title, many development made for the xbox one X cannot be use without some touch to memory management the S would otherwise been able to use Xbox one X title without much modifications otherwise. Please your developpers, you please your consumers...
@@The_Independant_Pit Yeah that’s an annoying thing, especially for some Xbox one games that are below 1080p. Battlefield 4 runs at 720p I believe.
Since the Backwards Compatibility team isn’t adding anymore titles, I think it would be great if they started focusing on enhancing Xbox one titles for the X and S. Resolution boost and FPS boost if possible.
Well the series s also has a weaker gpu and slower ram so it would never run at similar or higher resolutions than the one x anyways
Unreal Engine 5 looks extremely promising with it's software based RT :)
I really think RTGI is the only viable path forward. It's such a huge bang for buck feature.
I got a used but like-new Series X for $300 with a few games. The system is dropping in price so fast since everyone only wants PS5. Ironically I did the same thing with the One X.
$300 for a $500 console is the way to go. Especially when it's not a gimped console like the One S or Series S.
Would love you to explain where you are seeing the Series X dropping in price fast? Definitely not the US.
@@wh5027 They routinely go for $400 or less on Ebay. Even cheaper on other avenues like FB marketplace. The hype simply isn't there for Xbox.
Is a series s basically a 3050 with a ryzen 3700x?
3700x, yes, 3050, no. Something between an Rx 6400 and 6500xt
No, i have a 3050 and it's more powerfull and offers more performance on similar settings, but the Series S price, optimization and decent CPU makes up vastly for that gap.
Also, the RT on a 3050 is suprior to anything on consoles.
@@ka7al958 3050 can compete with series s but not x or ps5, since they both have similar powers to rtx 2080ti. I have an 3050 myself.
the Series S is more like an 1660 Super
The thing is, if you're buying a Series S for ray tracing.... just... why? If you care that much about it then the series X is for you
I don't think it's the main selling point.
Series S's main selling point is not ray-tracing. People pretty much buy the console because of the lower price which makes a perfect Gamepass machine. I knoe people who have a Playstation 5 and bought a Series S lol (and probably wouldn't even bother with Xbox otherwise).
If you care much about RT you buy rtx40xx/3090/3090ti card,you need any resources you can get
Even on Nvidia, RT is just too punishing on performance to be worth it 90% of the time. I really hope that if devs do RT at 30 that they'll let us turn it off and play at 60.
The point is that more games will be built with RT lighting as a baseline graphical feature. And the narrative over the prior 2 years has been that the S can't do RT, which will make the S either obsolete or will hold back games this generation. But as this video helps to show is that it is possible in most situations with the right optimization - although still paired back.
When you are 3 meters away from a tv screen, you dont notice anything of this
I think we will need a pro model from MS and Sony largely just for RT. Wonder if AMD can do a custom GPU with 2~4 RT cores per CU. RDNA2 has 2 AI cores per CU, so we could see FSR more similar to DLSS so that would help too.
That wont happen at all theyd rather spend money on more gpu power than make a gamble like that and ms prolly wont have a pro this gen only ps5 since they already released two models with different power levels
Should have just removed the disc drive and sold it for $100 less like the PS5 did, no compromising on the hardware. a few devs from sony exclusives have talked about how much they love not having to downscale or gimp quality due to having to release it for weaker hardware.
Yeah exactly just spend the extra $100 and get the PS5, this thing is a joke.
@@drummer7557 And a $100 more you can get the disc drive. And a $100 more…
This mentality is stupid. You have to draw the line.
Ah yes, the emulation console.
Does Paradise Killer have RT reflections on Xbox? The PS5 version does, and it even mostly holds 60FPS while doing it.
Great video!
really looking forward to see what series s does with the new forza motorsport
They've claimed that series x is doing 4k 60fps with ray tracing during gameplay but I bet it's a dynamic resolution. If that's the case and the engine is optimised well enough then I can see the series s also getting some ray tracing also probably much lower quality reflections to fit within the vram buffer.
series s still surprising me !
Kind of funny… yeah this is a system that will not be top notch, but it will be fun for you guys to compare it with everything else over the next few years.
love my series s
I have a series x and I love it. In some ways it’s already shown me it’s more powerful that I thought it’d be.
But I’ve learned it is not really a raytracing capable machine for me.
I hoped FSR 2.1 might bring huge changes like a 40hz+ RT mode for Cyberpunk or 80hz+ performance mode but it made no noticeable difference so;
RT is very limited and on AAA it’s 30hz and Fortnight is shimiering and pop-up-riddled clearly demonstrating UE5’s limits with that small open world that doesn’t even have any AI.
PS5 and XSX are cool consoles but aren’t good RT machines so XSS has no chance.
Most devs just aim for the standard 30 and 60 modes and don't mess around with fsr or 40 and 120 modes very often. Simply because most people don't have 120hz screens yet so they are putting dev time into modes that most players will never touch.
@@JudeTheRUclipsPoopersubscribe well that sucks and lack of interest in optimising from devs would be just another reason these consoles are very far from the cutting edge. But to my eyes, Cyberpunk in performance mode looks absolutely amazing. 2077 and Requiem are the most "next gen" or current gen experiences on my console, to my eyes and if they represent the standard go8ng forward then I'm happy.
(And requiem is the game that taught me that 40hz is actually worth it for me and a much nicer experience than 30. WAY better than i thought it'd be)
@@JudeTheRUclipsPoopersubscribe But also those devs are nuts because 120hz is going to be standard over three next 5 to 10 years so they're shortening their games lives by not future proofing.
@@MrMightyZ requiem on my series s in the 40hz mode was a real treat to play. It's shocking how huge of a difference an extra 10 frames makes haha.
@@MrMightyZ they'll just do a "next gen patch" in 6 years lol
12:27 Forza "Real Time Cube Map"
I remember when they updated the RT settings in Horizon 5 for PC and I drove around thinking the cube map (or some part of it) was the new RT effect.
That cube map is one of the best examples of reflections I've ever seen, reflections always curve accurately to the shape of the car, and it does not use ray tracing.
This is another prime example of why we don't need RT Reflections, it's just not an practical improvement.
Sad reality is the RT reflections we do get in Forza Horizon 5 don't reflect the environment at all, it's only car-self-reflection, so there was really no point in enabling the feature to begin with.
Its a matter of truly next gen games pop up.. The console is more than capable of Raytracing, this is fact. If Forza Motorsport came with that kind of RT they are showing us (of course, not like Series X but with Raytracing mid-low settings at least), you can expect the exclusives that offer in majority to have on S and this is were MS can deliver, show the RT on the two consoles to exhibit the power of S/X but show the better one on the most powerful console of this generation, Series X.. Devs have their deals too, to not implement fully or even to not support Series S in full aspect because media especially the PS ones doenst want the XSS to succeed..
I’m betting the ‘pro’ iteration of these consoles will just have better ray acceleration. If AMD can get their rt pipeline together that is
Still to this day their RT performance is just ass. Its not going to happen
a 199 dollar console that can do 4k and ray tracing? heck yeah just dont tell the sony cry babies or they will try and sue microsoft again 🤣🤣
I had a 3080, 3080 Ti and now got a 4080.
There was only one game where I felt like I had to have Ray tracing turned on (Metro Exodus/Enhanced Edition)
Sure cyberpunk with ray tracing can add to the visuals but I didn't find it game changing at all.
I'd always rather aim for 4K 120 FPS or close too using VRR
It still feels like the fetish for ray tracing is horribly misplaced. Performance is more important than graphics fidelity 10 times out of 10. Baked in solutions may not always be the most accurate but are still impressive when it's well implemented. Who cares if the light bounce is correct and the shadows are accurate when the requirements to get a good stable frame rate borders on the ridiculous? Then to have the audacity to try to push 4K AND ray tracing? It's bonkers man. Can we at least get the damn frame rate stable before jumping out of the jet without a parachute to support ray tracing?
1) It almost like a vanishingly small number of developers (questionably chosen) whining about Series 1 S when they have to support 4 last gen machines sounds questionable, especially when many more, less questionably 'chosen', developers argued back.
2) All three next gen boxes are held back one way or another by supporting last gen, and the S requiring a bit more of dev mind, is likely held back more than the other two (who can just brute force some additional next gen features onto what is basically a last gen game).
3) Devs having to be cleverer with the HDD tech in the S will pay dividends to the X and 5 (and future consoles, I would imagine, since I doubt HDD regression will happen, but who knows)
4) DF doesn't need to muse about the if's or fud things up (which are want to do sometimes), you can talk to any number of devs and get a much better survey than a respected journalist who happens to have some bias and/or axes to grind. So why don't you?
Also - lol at some of the verbiage chosen - the next gen Hellblade patch is an "olive branch" to Series S? A first party studio supporting both next gen boxes is not an olive branch, it's part of their job and they got whatever they could get given budget and certain assumptions at the time. Burying narratives like that into subtle editorialization is part and parcel for this channel - most viewers won't see you do it, but their brains will - which is the point, perhaps even accidentally sometimes, so to speak.
The more we go into the future of gaming the more we see the limitations of the Series S hardware and it isn’t looking good
It is good, it's just you.
with the matrix demo they released in december utilizing unreal 5, shows the series S just about keeps right up with the X in ray tracing ability.
Really good for $240 you could get a ps5 for $550 and get 720p and 20fps on forbroken
RE3 rt mode on series s is smooth as butter feels like 60 its a shame it couldnt be the same for re2 its running like 30-40 .. and on top of that RE3 has more impressive reflections as well. Very weird
Even the X disappoints. The only game that impressed me was Plague Requiem. I remember Halo 4, Gears of War 2, and Alan Wake blowing me away on the 360. Grid was amazing on the Xbox One. RE Remake and Zero were visual stunners on the Gamecube.
How about tales of arise engine. It runs in low key everything.
Well, that's the nature of current gen. It's basically the same games as last gen but with more pixels, frames and shinier puddles.
@@flyingplantwhale545 ratchet n clank rift apart, demons souls and HFW have already proven its more than just that tho...the level of detail and effects are insane on these titles..and they said they are barely scratching the surface with those games visually.
Series S is a capable little system ❤👍🏾
I just don't care about 4K, less about Ray tracing. I just want to play good games.
But waiting for Unreal 5,
we had that Matrix experience and it looked great in Series S even though it was a beta and little optimized version.
So I hope Series S will shut a lot of mouths in the near future.
Xbox Series S is the generation back holder!
It annoys me that cross-platform games have to take into account to run on a console that is 3 times weaker than Series X and 2,5 times weaker than PS5.
I think it's hold backer
True that
However i appreciate that Microsoft gave a entry level console for people who can't afford those high ends machines.
@@MarcoAurelio-hn1ys Completely missing the point.
@@MarcoAurelio-hn1ys If you cant afford something, you cant just buy something cheaper and pretend that you actually got what you wanted. You just waste money on something completely different. If you want a gaming console BUY A GAMING CONSOLE. Not some cheap, trash that can barely run games. It's literally ruining this whole generation of games. Instead of creating NEW INNOVATIVE GAMES Devs have to keep making old crap that runs on the series S. If this piece of sh*t box didnt exist we would actually get NEW, BOUNDRY PUSHING games. Instead of the same crap we've already been getting the last 10 years.