Let's be honest about HEMA - Response to Shadiversity
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
- This video is a response to two specific points made by Shad of Shadiversity in his video entitled "Let's be honest about HEMA - "Historical European Martial Arts" and what it should mean and allow."
Link to original video: • Let's be honest about ...
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Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
0:33 Why HEMA values treatises & other primary sources
3:19 Example: How source types can work together
5:59 On the purely experimental approach
10:49 Conclusion
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Illustrations/source material shown in this video:
- Amster & Prinzenberger, "Infantryman stabbing with bayonet" (1813). Prints, Drawings and Watercolors from the Anne S.K. Brown Military Collection. Brown Digital Repository. Brown University Library.
repository.library.brown.edu/...
- Prinzenberger, "Two infantrymen in bayonet combat" (1813). Prints, Drawings and Watercolors from the Anne S.K. Brown Military Collection. Brown Digital Repository. Brown University Library.
repository.library.brown.edu/...
- Cook, unpublished artwork depicting Major Anthony Gordon's method of bayonet drill. See outofthiscentury.wordpress.co...
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- Instagram: / historyandsabre
- My HEMA club: indes.at
![Sabre vs. Highland Broadsword [HEMA]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/d4qNBkg8JMM/mqdefault.jpg)
![Sabre vs. Highland Broadsword [HEMA]](/img/tr.png)
![Let's be honest about HEMA sources: experimental archaeology [reply to Shadiversity]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EPfsNPiYxMU/mqdefault.jpg)
From a fellow mustache aficionado, them handlebars are badass. You guys put out great stuff. Thank you.
Haha, thanks and welcome! Appreciate it!
Hi, Peter!
Excellent video. As I see it, Shad did use some strawmanning by implying HEMA would rely just and only on written sources - while leaning toward an extremely open interpretation of the term HEMA, which basically encompasses everything ever done in europe to offend another person.
This is problematic on many levels, first of all - as you rightly pointed out - it does not correspond to the established meaning of the term HEMA.
Second: you could argue based on his reasoning that shoe throwing and belt whacking should be considered HEMA (both were most probably done in fighting in europe, you can find out how to do it by trying it out in your back yard).
Third: If you open a well defined term up like that, it becomes meaningless, because there is almost nothing that would not qualify as HEMA.
Thanks for your content, as always a very enjoyable watch. :) Greetings from good ole Berlin!
Thanks, exactly my view of the matter aswell!
Cheers from Graz !
If anyone is going to have a section on shoe throwing it's Godinho.
Anything is historical if it might have happened in history. Medieval people were sometimes naked. Therefore if I get naked I am wearing medieval historical attire. -Shad Logic
Good video Peter. Looking forward to fence you ;-)
Thanks! Same, I hope we can arrange that :)
With longswords? Sabers? Or both?
@@thescholar-general5975 I would say both!
Can't wait to see the video of your sparring bout !
I just have to point out that Shad pontificates from a plywood throne, on a plywood dais. Just saying, consider the source.
Maybe so. I still think it's useful to provide some counter arguments for people to see.
@@historyandsabre Definitely, and an excellent argument it is.
This is such an underrated channel, every video is a gem.
Underrated by whom? Peter has a considerable following and a lot of credibility within the community. Oh. And. That. Moustache 😀
Thanks to both of you for the support! :)
Excellent defence. Very much agree with you. Looking forward to the sword vs. bayonet analysis!
Thanks! Yeah, I'm still working on it and we'll get to teaching and trying it out in the autumn! :)
Really nice video. Pretty disappointing the fact it showed up a bit too late on my feed, but that is to blame only on the algoritm.
I noticed too that his point about having a purely experimental approach is weird. Like you said it takes historical out of HEMA. If we called it just "swordfighting" his approach would make sense.
Plus most of the time these tecnique were for self defense/battlefield fighting/duels. If someone did Shad's "hema" he would need a lot of friends, cause he might kill some of them.
Anyways. You gained a subscriber
Thanks for the comment and welcome to the channel! Cheers
Nice. Clear. Informed. Generous. This is what HEMA debate ought to be.
That's a mighty fine video there sir! Just like your mustache; perfection!
Thanks a lot on both accounts, much appreciated!
Shad conveniently ignored the "martial arts" aspect of the term HEMA. He focused almost entirely on the word "historical".
According to this definition, "The term martial arts refers to all of the various systems of training for combat that have been arranged or systematized."
Which would exclude the folks swinging swords in their bakcyard without any formal training. Historical or not, it still wouldn't be HEMA
Yep, true. I decided not to focus on that in my video but I agree with you.
I love this channel.. I I completely new to fencing, hema, swords and everything but really want to learn sabre.
Could you possibly tell me (or make a video which I think would be great for people like me starting out) the difference between the various styles?
What resources are there? I can find lots of videos on British style, some on Polish and then very little else..
What style do you use?
I understand the treatises are used by teachers but are there any resources for those of us who don't live near hema schools?
Thanks a mill
Edit: my questions relate specifically to sabre where it isn't clear
Hi Dylan, thanks for checking out the channel and welcome to the HEMA community!
I myself am focusing on Charles Roworth (1798/1824) and Angelo, which is a military fencing style practiced around 1800 in Britain with various influences. The primary resource for this style is the AHF channel / Nick Thomas for both the transcribed manuals aswell as video content:
- Here his excellent HEMA at Home series for Roworth: ruclips.net/p/PLgRb6yZYwVwt14CE1re-jJRsOE51f08_3
Other channels focusing on similar systems are the following:
- Scholagladiatoria / Matt Easton: ruclips.net/user/scholagladiatoria
- Die Freifechter: ruclips.net/channel/UCUAQZwiF84s7p4R3Q5RUsiw
- Jay Maas of Broadsword Academy Manitoba (whose channel is down right now)
Of course there are other styles of historical sabre fencing. The British Military Swordsmanship community is very strongly represented in modern HEMA because that's the sources that have gained the most popularity and attention for various reasons. There are also sabre manuals in German, Slavic languages, French, Italian, or Spanish from various perionds of the 18th-19th century.
Don't hesitate to ask if anything is unclear or you want more specific information. Cheers!
@@historyandsabre I have been looking at both their channels and yours!
Itd be great if you could do a course for beginners (like 10 videos or so listing drills and techniques). Might be handy for views!
@@dylanduke9963 I wasn't really planning on such a series at the moment but I'll think about it!
@@historyandsabre cool yeah I think it'd be really cool. Maybe show some of your favourite drills or responses to certain things! Just ideas anyway, I'll continue watching either way!
Always glad to see some new videos here. Thanks for this duscussion. I see there are a lot of controversial topics here in, let's say, western HEMA, these days, some videos on youtube, posts in facebook. Here in 'eastern' area we have pretty same thoughts, problems, and points of view. I thinks, even a fact of existing such duscussions is a good sign. Even if we aren't always agree in everything - it is a way to make our hobby more opened, share thoughts and expirience between clubs and so on.
Hi again, and thanks for the continued support! Agreed, discussion is always great and sometimes things need to be adressed when misinformation is presented. Take care!
I am looking forward to your work on bayonet combat! As far as China is concerned, I don’t know of amy specific bayonet manuals before the 20th century, but we do know a lot about the spear going all the way back to the 16th century, so I think that extrapolating a bayonet system from that should be possible. I may look into it eventually. Great video! Btw, your video production quality is amazing! What camera and lighting setup do you use?
Thanks, appreciate it! Yeah, there are quite a number of bayonet manuals (often part of sabre manuals) in the after the Napoleonic wars, so that's great.
I'll be sure to share progress whenever there is something to show, which will be later this year.
I'm a photographer on the side, so I already have good lenses. The camera body is a Canon EOS R with a fast 35mm lens. I also use a Godox video light with a cheap softbox. It's a very simple setup - you could achieve basically the same look with very affordable camera gear.
I totally agree, sir.
Excellent considerate thoughtful response
Thanks for watching!
I just recently found this channel, unless this particular video. While I agree with most of the points made on its surface, in my research on polish saber I have found many people discrediting Richard marsden's book because he is supposedly cobbling polish saber together from several different sources. Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with everything said.
Marsden's Polish sabre is one of contemporary hypothetical reconstructions of how Polish sabre might have looked like. There are at least two other researchers, Miklaszewski and Sieniawski and their systems, even though they are based on the same cross references, are dramatically different. Regarding Polish style we only know for sure only four things: it existed, it had nothing in common with German systems, it had this "hellish quart" technique and the whole system started to be outdated and inferior in comparison to military sabres at the beginning of XIX century. By far, no sources that would give us a direct hint on how did it really look like, were not found. Personally, the closest thing we would have, is Matrag, an Algerian, traditional stick fighting, which serves as an excerise for sabre combat. In XVII century Poland something similar was practiced, that is palcaty. Matrag looks like it relies on wide swings delivered diagonally and it is practised as a folk tradition, not a codified system, just as supposedly Polish sabre was, and is similarly arachaic as well.
There's Iwanowski's manual from early 1800s, written for cavalry in Napoleon's army, but this is clearly a system meant for mounted combat, and we know Iwański wrote it as his own, using his own expertise, we do not know if he made it up from scratch, or just modernized the Polish to better suit his contemporary battlefield needs. But it is still a late modern period document, not early modern period, so it is from the time when winged hussars were no more a thing
7:10 I don't think Shad cares if it's historical, he cares if it works--whether or not it was the way it was done historically.
Shadiversity is to HEMA what Steven Seagal is to MMA.
Why are people taking Shad seriously again? He's neither a fencer nor a historian.
Absolutely, we could just ignore everything that we disagree with. To answer your question, it's simply to put out an alternative view to his videos for people to see.
Not being something does not disqualify someones points on the ground of not being something. Thst is beyond bad faith and extremely elitist. Shad isnt i competent and made salient points. At this point i think its just people being too confused and tied to the label of hema to realize that the criticis might not even be aimed at them. Because there are elitist in hema and a plethora of issues. One can cite financial. Issues concerning getting intto it for example.
Another piece of evidence to consider on my hypothesis that shad is wrong about everything always
What’s the point of hema though…..
Could you elaborate on your question? I'm not sure how to answer that. What's the point of any martial art, sport or activity?
@@historyandsabre I realise I may of sounded rude I didn’t mean to I’m sorry if it came off that way. What I mean is obviously it’s a hobby etc but are there any real life skills that can be learned from it? Genuine question
My guess he is referring to same weapon dueling. For end all be all combat. HEMA kinda is put on a pedestal because of it being "same weapon vs same weapon" where in a real fight there is no same weapon, its no duel. Its a fight to the death. And sword fighting has existed longer than HEMA writings. What would be your response to this distinction? Especially given the reality of a real fight and warfare was unfair in nature because of the unpredictability. To caveat im not saying hema is bad but im saying HEMA comes off elitist in how practioners approach it to explain. And you say its verifiably historical how itsna study of the systems. Would you say that HEMA has an issue of RAW vs RAI? (rules and written vs rules as interpretated) How can you know truly how sword practioners were even using them the way we are interpreting the writing and what if writings were gatekept and biomechanics when given the sword has existed longer than HEMA? Youd have to figure things out before writing them down anyway. So what if shad is right and writing things down alone isnt the full story?
Where did you get the idea from that HEMA is 1v1 with the same weapons?
There are techniques and advice in the sources about what do do against multiple opponents. Also, there are plenty of manuals that show asymmetrical pairings.
Thinking about it, just look at the sword vs bayonet videos on my channel.
@@historyandsabre sellsword arts? Not a good source I know. I still would want your opinion on my other questions though. Also thanks for the video recommendation
Not all HEMA treatises, or even primary sources. Ottoman only has drill manuals, and anything before I.33 has only oblique passing references with literally one exception (a roman-greek scroll fragment on grappling, to be exact), for example.
All in all, Shad can be a bit of a stirrer sometimes, whatever gets those views ya know.
@PJ Rivera Not if it's based on lies. I'm not sure what 'being sheep' has to do with anything but progress is made through co-operation, if a debate arises based on two conflicting viewpoints that's fine, but just debate for its own sake doesn't yield results, debate for its own sake slows down the process if we need to keep re-iterating things that a community at large already knows.
@@Aldrnarii Was Shad basing it on lies? This might have been an instance where he was unknowingly ignorant, at which point shouldn't it be encouraged to correct him?
@PJ Rivera of course not everything has to be nice, but covering ground that is already widely known is just holding back progress as we retread the same ground forever.
@@CAL112100 possibly, I'm not making a judgement either way there. I'm pushing back against the idea that if someone does know something, purposefully stirring debate around it without decent evidence to the contrary is futile.
Not that that is what Shad is doing, or not that he isn't.
Could not have said it better
Cheers.
@@historyandsabre also subscribed 👍
Ich seh schon, es war definitiv die richtige Entscheidung, deinen Kanal zu Abonnieren und Shads eben nicht.
Danke fürs Abo!
Shad macht auch guten Content, das muss man schon sagen. Bei Themen wie HEMA ist er halt oft nicht wirklich realitätsnahe.
Bitteschön!
Die Realitätsferne von Shad was HEMA angeht ist halt der Punkt. Wenn ich videos anschau will ich halt auch was lernen und nicht nur unterhalten werden.
@@Ivalid321 Warum muss es das eine oder das andere sein? Sie scheinen beide sehr informativ zu sein, es sei denn, ich vermisse etwas.
@@CAL112100 Mein Eindruck von Shad ist, dass er gerne Theorien aufstellt, die er nicht überprüft ob Sie stimmen. Er hat schon öfters Sachen als einzige Wahrheit verkauft, die so weder zu dem passen was man beim Fechten erlebt noch zu dem was die historischen Quellen schreiben. Für mich ist Shad Entertainment, aber ich würde nichts glauben was er sagt, was ich nicht vorher gegengeprüft habe.
I think you have misunderstood Shad's point. Shad's criticism was aimed specifically at those particular HEMA practitioners who claim that "if it is not written in a treatise, then it is not historical", he almost exclusively refereed to the medieval period. He argued quite well showing that by the academic definition of the word "historical", a treatise text is not the only, all others excluding, historical source and that other sources could also be considered as valid historical sources and as such the HEMA practitioners who only accept things as historical if they are specifically written in the treatises, should educate themselves first on the the meaning of the word "historical", and maybe say that something is not part of a treatise, rather than saying that it is not historical.
He was mostly defending things as being legitimately historical study such a serious dedicated study and practice of Viking style fighting for example. To be fair, I do not think he meant that just swinging a plastic foam sword for fun with your friends after you have had a few beers on Saturday afternoon constitutes as historical.
That said, you mostly refer to 18th century onwards or thereabouts, and I completely agree that in such a case, it is almost impossible to recreate accurately historical usage of a cavalry sabre fighting just by casually swinging around, be it a real historical sabre, in your backyard.
You might want to give it another watch. He actually says at one point that merely having a historical object (medieval sword) means that anything you do with it is a form of HEMA. So under that vague notion if I hold a longsword replica while throwing poo at someone that's HEMA. If he was merely trying to say that experimental archeology in the manner of Roland Warzecha was HEMA then no one would be arguing.
Thanks for commenting. I see your point but I honestly do believe that according to his argumentation he would class your example of a Saturday afternoon with swords as "historical". In any case, I really don't want to repeat the entire controversy again at this point, so excuse my brevity.
Don't ever feel like you need to respond to Shad. He's not really worth your time.
There's certainly something to that but I'd rather provide a contrasting view than just leave his out there to confuse people.
Oh yes it is. It is worth it to find some dumbass point to slightly disagree on, and make a arbitrary counter video to gain subscribers. Don't worry about it.
What's wrong with Shad?
I disagree with your view of the tools alone providing historical insight, you even hesitate to say it. Sure you won't get a lot of insight but you'll get a little and thus will have begun to learn HEMA. You won't be practicing HEMA until you either source or develop on your own viable fighting technique that works against novices at the very least. People did it in the past so it is then a Historical European Martial Art. You're all missing the weakest link in Shad's argument. He focussed on the Historical part of HEMA and totally ignored the Martial Arts part. You can disassemble much of what he said by just defining what a Martial Art is.
Also, like a monkey on a typewriter, you will eventually figure out every possible use of a weapon with enough time and experimentation. Your assertion that you will not be able to figure out non-intuitive methods is ridiculous. Shad even covers this in his video, how else would the masters have figured it out? This is the elitist mindset Shad is talking about. Know that I mean no vitriol when I say your flawed argument is beaten be a flawed argument. Again, you only need to define Martial Arts to beat Shads general argument.
Thanks for commenting! I can see your point about experimentation. However, the masters didn't come up with it in a vacuum but in the martial context of their time. They also often built on previous generations and mostly didn't reinvent everything from scratch. That's why I focused on the historical part. Let's just take my original example given in the video. With his manual for the cavalry exersice, Le Marchant responded to what he felt were the specific needs of the British cavalry after having served himself. He tried to improve on what was there and had practical experience as a cavalry officer. It's hard to replicate that in your backyard "through experimentation". Trying to come up with something similar outside of the original context will be near impossible.
But yeah, sure. I totally agree that the weakest link is the lack of a precise martial arts definition in Shad's original video.
@@historyandsabre Indeed I was hyperbolic to suggest the masters came up with everything on their own, however the backyard swordsman is also trying to improve upon what they know and develop a system around that little bit of knowledge and the physics of the weapon, much like Shads example of unskilled peasants. In my comment to him, I specify that backyard swordsmen could only be practicing HEMA if they're weapons were somewhat historical, they aimed to imitate or eventually use steel, and the system they develop has to be able to defeat novices. As was pointed out in Shads video, you likely can't come up with something someone else hasn't done before you in olden times. Through this reasoning it checks off all the letters of HEMA. Went into depth about it under Shads vid.
@@Scruffy_Knight Thanks for clarifying your point. It seems to me that we have a definitional problem. If you use a definition of historical which includes everything that *could* or *might* have happened, you could indeed make the analogy between backyard fighting and medieval peasants. Personally, I don't subscribe to such a definition. Feel free to disagree but this is where I ultimately stand :)
What is the point of making a video arguing against a strawman? Oh, to gain attention I suppose.
I don't believe I argued against a strawman here.