Are Double Axes REALLY That Stupid? (Reply to Shadiversity)
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2021
- The double edged / headed / bitted axe, or Labyrs, or whatever you want to call it, is one of the most iconic weapons in RPGs and other video games, movies, and other fictional art. Dwarves, minotaurs, barbarians, and other mighty warriors are fond of its heft and intimidating looks. Does it make sense though?
Many history enthusiasts have a certain disdain for the idea of a symmetrical twin blade as opposed to a more versatile addition like a spike or hammer. After it has been trashed so much, how about we see if there is anything redeemable about the idea of a twin bladed battle-axe? Is it completely pointless or could there be some practical merit to it in certain situations?
Part 2 (Real Historical Examples):
• Double Axes II: Is His...
The video I'm responding to:
The double edged axe is STUPID! - Pop-culture weapons analysed
• The double edged axe i...
About edge grinds"
The Pros Cons of Single-Edged Swords vs. Double-Edged
• The Pros Cons of Singl...
What Makes Swords & Knives Cut Well (Sharpness, Blade Geometry, Etc)
• What Makes Swords & Kn...
** Sources / links **
Example from India with large head, for weight reference
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
17th century bardiche
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Huge version
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Minoan bronze axe
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Double-bladed processional axe, India, 19th or 20th century
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Double halberd, 1600
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
French halberd, 17th century
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
French halberd, 1712
www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...
Info about double-bitted tools
uh.edu/engines//epi1497.htm
Pictures:
Druss the Legend
www.deviantart.com/slaine69/a...
Female dwarf
index.artstation.com/artwork/...
Extra serrated fantasy thingie
www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/mi...
** Music **
Music: "Spirit Waltz" by HorrorPen
opengameart.org/content/spiri...
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0
Intro song:
"Illuminate" by Vindsvept
vindsvept.bandcamp.com/track/...
Used with artist's permission
"Atmospheric Synthwave Movie Trailer Music - Night Dweller" by White Bat Audio (Karl Casey)
• Atmospheric Synthwave ...
Creative Commons - Attribution 3.0 Unported - CC BY 3.0
Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
theslantedroom.github.io/stev...
Used with artist's permission
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Развлечения
I have been thoroughly schooled ^_^ Great points all-round and I wholeheartedly agree with your finer points of context! I've already linked this video in the description of the one it's replying to. Really looking forward to part 2
Hi Shad! I just want to say that I love it when you and Skall or other historical content creators actually respond back to eachother. It adds a lot more fun to the community!
Hi shad!
Hoisted by your own petard!
I like the respectfulness of the researchers and just history enjoyers in that community
Thanks! Your video reminded me that I've never actually talked about double axes in detail.
Anyone using Heroes of Might and Magic 3 as a argument automatically wins no matter in what context it is used.
Agree
that is the rule
If I say, "Heroes of Might and Magic 3 sucks, because Heroes of Might and Magic 3 sucks," do I automatically win?
This is the way.
@@primoridalspatula663 Yes! This circular logic usually is wrong use of logic, but not in the case of HMM 3.
Viking A: Your double axe is impractical !
Viking B: Is it cool, though ?
Viking A: It doesn't matter, if it's impractical !
Viking B: Is it cool, though ?
Viking A: Yes, it is.
Viking B: I knew it !
1000 years old Ninja Mall.
But Bec de Corbin and poleaxe look better, more dangerous, more menacing, 20% cooler
why did you have to use Viking? the Work title thats the least likely to do such a stupid, stupid looking thing? And dont use work title as a race. Or do you call all arabs or jews terrorists? you certainly called all the norse that right now.. you are Certainly a terrible human being.
There is a practical use, more durability as you can switch sides when one side chips and dulls inevitably in combat rather than retreating to a squire or quartermaster for a second blade. Same reason double edged swords are nice to have even if they aren't usually primary weapons but rather secondary tools for close encounters just like shortswords and daggers.
viking c, totally not a knight in disguise: personally, i think a spike or a hammerhead on the other end is cool, not the same business end.
Don´t know much about giant double blade dragon killing axes. But when it comes to double bit axes for wood working - they actually feel more nimble and "lighter" than axes of similiar weight with only one blade. The reason is, that the center of gravity of the head is in line with the handle, which makes it easier and less cumbersome to control. I suppose it would apply for fighting axes as well.
Underrated comment here
Double-headed 'saddle' axes are actually different blades. One meant for splitting and one for finer, carving work. Two tools in one. ruclips.net/video/ohEsUQHovv4/видео.html
fine point (sorry, not intentional) also having used a number of axes over the years, (surveyor, heavy construction, rev war reenactor) the double bladed ax as a fighting ax is reversible, and balances in your hand and swinging better than those single blades with no poll. No poll/ back blade try to twist in your hand when you hit something. Try splitting kindling with a throwing tomahawk as an example.
@Adam Cinq-Mars As a person who is also French Canadian metis, an antique double bit axe would be cool to have, as history, especially family history, is an interest of mine. But as someone who grew up in the midst of Pacific Coast rainforest on Vancouver Island and spent many hours helping turn trees into firewood, I would prefer a regular axe for dry wood and a chopping maul for the wet, and tougher stuff. My grandpa had an axe that had a mechanism in the blade that helped split the wood, I think he just called it a splitting axe, and that was the best thing ever!
You could still accomplish that by having a spike or hammer on the other end
Something to keep in mind, people of the middle ages had the same brains that we have today. Sometimes people in the middle ages liked things that looked cool and might not be the most practical. Not every historical weapon was created to be a perfect weapon for the period, some design choices were based on Fashion. Fashion, Jewelry, Fancy Clothes and Crazy Swords were a huge part of the middle ages and was very prominant with the Vikings. Some historical weapons existed because they were "cool" not because they were the most practical.
Many had less brains after meeting the wrong end of a Dane axe I would imagine
Rapiers weren't really that practical because of their weight compared to sabres for example
@@indrickboreale7381 perhaps, but rapiers had a different use case. Sabers were more for dynastic surgery and rapiers we're more for putting holes in people.
People always overlook the intimidation factor. If you are carrying a big scary axe, assumptions are made about the person carrying. That alone could mean less fights over all for said axe wielder, meaning more survival. Psychological warfare has been a thing for a long time.
People nowadays still do all sorts of dumb, impractical, but (at least to them) cool looking stuff to their weapons nowadays, Tac Sac anyone?
A favorite saying of mine, "There is no such thing as a minor axe wound."
well I hited my self with a hand axe once just have a little scar on the meat of my thumb so .... joking aside yea AXES !!!
@@loicduchange4429 hahaha nice. My brother cut his thumb off cutting kindling. Hahaha. He was young when he did that.
my bruised shins would disagree (don't chop wood drunk)
@@platypusbuk yea don't mess with axes I'm lucky I just have a scar on the thumb that much I know, anyway have a nice day man
@@loicduchange4429 you too bud!
I just had dumb idea. The witcher double bladed axe one side steel one side silver.
This is a good idea!
Actually, in terms of an adventurer, it might make quite a lot of sense to have a double-bladed axe with one blade for combat and another for woodcutting or general utility. Whether it would be better than a camping ax with a blade designed in such a way as to sort-of work for both jobs (like the one Shad showed-off in another one of his videos, "How well can a medieval BATTLEAXE chop wood?"), that I can't say, but it's an interesting thought.
Also, I see no reason why Shad's back carry solution for a longbow couldn't also work for a double-bladed axe. Or a single-bladed ax, for that matter.
All you have to do is make sheath that attaches to the back of your belt.
Also in terms of really gritty, really grimdark fantasy where it's just hours and hours of warfare with little time for reprieve. Or Conan fantasy where they're going possibly weeks without proper repairs - Grindstones don't automatically mean repaired blade!!!
@@topogigio7031 a lot made for axe throwing these days though.
And vikings need to chop through doors for looting, repair their shields, or ship, or whatever. Problem solved lol.
That was the point of a monk spade in China, except it had blades on opposing ends. It had a crescent blade for defending against attacks and a shovel like blade mainly intended to bury the dead.
[Correction]: In the video I misspoke and said my Dane axe weighs 1.6 kg, but it's in fact 1.3 kg. The conversion to pounds is the right amount.
And here is part 2 (real historical examples of double axes): ruclips.net/video/JG0MFuWjQ7w/видео.html
This is outrageous. I'm unsubscribing.
I love this channel
Suits you well . . . shoulda known better than to use metric, as it's highly prone to errors.
Skall does not miss speak, Skall is simply "incorrectly heard" . Have at em big fella
Real-AXE bro……
No one AXE for perfektion from you.
it's crazy that in the past I used to think: "Skallagrim always is a bit more cynical. Shad gives everything fantasy-based a 'chance' to prove itself and he tries to be positive and open minded" Well well. How the turned tables.
(I'm a fan of both channels)
Shad seems to have become more critical,in a negative way,while recently Skall seems to be in a good mood.
Same. For some reason Shad has become weirdly over-opinionated on a bunch of things more often over the course of his channel. It makes it kinda hard to watch, like a less thought-out Lindybeige.
I love the critical Shad we've been seeing, cuz he's still as good hearted as ever but he's bringing up the effectiveness of simplicity in melee weapons that gets forgotten frequently. Particularly nunchucks. F*ck nunchucks lol.
I can’t watch more than 1-2 Shad videos at a time. I like his content but damn dude stop screaming at me for like 15 seconds
Maybe lockdown duh
See, this is how a response video should generally work... bringing new ideas and sensible counterpoints to the table while still recognizing fair points in the original material. I applaud you sir!
I love seeing you guys get into eachother and adding more information to your critiques on weapons. More videos like this are great for weapon nerds because it provides more perspective than just a single video can.
Shad: runs amuck
Community of the sword: I sleep
Shad: makes fun of any axe in any sort of way
Skall: REAL SHIT
But that's not at all how the video was, and Skall himself said he agreed with the points overall lmao
@@shawnwolf5961
first, I made this comment long before the video was posted
Second, I just meant something like this would incline Skall to make a video, not that he’d refute it
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 That's fair. Never insult a viking's axe :'D
The man takes criticism real well tho
@@Yarkoonian like a stable minded adult? Yes I agree.
So does this mean Skall's got an axe to grind with Shad's opinion?
Eeeyyyyyy
you win!
Nah, he just wants to ax a few questions.
You're really living on the edge with that pun, m'lord.
@@kitirena_koneko you've got a sharp wit
I love your videos my friend. I would love to see more videos covering ancient/medieval battles and the weapons and wounds suffered in said battle. Keep up great work buddy.
The Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines) also used axes mainly for the infantry. They recommended 3 types of one-handed axes: The normal one-edged axe, the double axe & a 3rd type with a small point (almost like a pick) in the opposite end. The 3rd type was the most recommended because it also gave another tactical option (armor penetration). Sources: the Strategikon.
I really like how non-hyperbolic this response is and how it comes off as a "Have you considered the following?" Rather than a let's get to squabbling. So nice to see reasonable dissent.
one reason why i like both. they seem to get better and more technical after each post and repost they do for things...like a lot are saying would be cool to see them colab on something, even the short film shad is doing up in canada.
But I like squabbling
Indeed. I hate senseless arguments
If only Shad could take your advice when it comes to Elden Ring lmao
Rarely happens
In woodworking a double bit axe is meant to be two different tools, one thicker sturdier for hard tough chopping, the other a much slimmer and sharper meant for finer carving tasks
This is the comment I came looking for.
Great point
Ive chopped a few trees down with a double headed axe. When one side is dull you have another axe. The friction of the chopping makes the blade warm too.
I was not aware that axes were used in woodworking. I know they were used for cutting trees, in which one edge was used for chopping and the other was used for limbing and was not as sharp as the chopping edge.
@@erikawhelan4673 I have watched a few videos, wish I remembered the channel, where a group of "above median age" people in England did wood harvesting and crafting in traditional methods.
I saw them making flat boards by splitting logs with axes and smoothing with an adze.
They used foot-powered lathes to make chair legs and backing spindles.
Heck, their outdoor workshop was something they made by hand from wood they harvested.
-
Long story short, there is a lot of woodworking that can be accomplished with axes and other hand tools.
I think I commented in Shad's video about the advantage of double axes for throwing purposes. Glad to hear that sentiment echoed in your video.
If i recall, the main thing about double-axes is that they're meant to be used in a specific way (swing back and forth like a fanning motion for constant chopping), but almost no depiction of these weapon in any form of media actually depicts this action in favor of using it like a single-edged axe...which completely defeats the purpose of the double-edged design.
It's the exact same fighting style principle that differentiates cutlasses from double-edged swords, but with a bigger weapon.
Nah, the body mechanics don't really work out for that kind of reversible back and forth motion. You don't do that with double-edged swords, either.
Extra Points for For Skall’s confidence Flinging that axe around.
I like this kind of interactions between historical content creators. Got to enjoy the different perspective & different interpretations
Shad & Skall (and many other Channels too) also share the has the same audiences throughout the years, so most people & them-self are more open to there opinions too. We are grateful to have more of these educated (guess) & entertaining discussions ... rather than more RUclips drama & hate between channels.
You really don't get to see this kind of interaction between other communities.
It's fun
It's nice when people can disagree on things and it doesn't devolve into a "I know more than you!" pissing match.
@@armedwombat6816 True
It's always entertaining to see those two poke at each other in a fun way whilst having an open and respectful discussion on eye level.
What I've never understood (and IIRC, I commented this on Shad's channel also), is: Why do dwarves always have axes? It seems inappropriate for a culture that lives underground by mining, rather than in forests. Axes are for chopping wood. Dwarves usually don't do a lot of that. They mine tunnels through rock. They should be using picks and hammers, not axes.
Ive always assumed it's because they have lots of surface area so they can be decorated.
Ive always wondered why they didn't carry polearms for fighting in tunnles.
If you can swing a hammer you can swing an axe....?
You have to look at what they are fighting against. Dwarves are not fools and will always use the right tool for the job. If the enemy is a rock hiding a bit of ore, then the pickaxe is the tool of choice. The type of enemy the axe is used for (read: unarmored) is a very common foe for the dwarves to encounter, making the axe the right tool for the job. But don't forget when they do go against armored opponents, the mace is quick to come out.
I though about this before.
And this is what I came up with.
1st at times a pick is referred to as a pick- ax. This is probably how this started.
Another point. Dwarf are often based off of Norse. Which uses axes. Add to this is the hill Dwarf.
The hill dwarfs were lessor dwarfs. Looked down on by the mountain Dwarfs. Hill Dwarf were loggers not miners and were poor by Dwarf standards. Not much lore is told if them. But by the Norse accounts I've seen. They were considered tricksters. Some may say Gnomes.
So the hill dwarfs and mountain dwarfs were crossed. Or grouped together.
Then there is the matter that an ax isn't much different then a pick or hammer
And a lot of times they are using hammers.
You don't see a lot of spears when it comes to Norse. But they used spears a lot.
One thing it the Norse used ax more then others. Bur they used spear and swords a lot also.
And it uncommon to see a Dwarf with a spear.
So, I think it goes back to Norse type. And that why they are seen a lot with axes.
That's my thoughts.
Bounus.... a ax flies better then a pick.
If I had to choose a throwing item. I'd pick an ax. In real life an ax is far better then a knife or star. Meaning, really with a knife or star I'LL hit you and do a little damage. With an ax I cam kill you. And that's just a small throw ax. Change to a wood cutting or " battle ax" and it worse.
Mind you there are far better distant weapons. Ax maybe 50 yards on a good day, maybe. While a bow or sling can hit 4 to 8 time farther..
BTW a sling should be a Dwarf's distant weapon. Stones come from mining as well as good bullets are made from lead, silver or gold. Well I assume silver or gold would be good. Since they are heavy metals like lead. And I use 1/2 lbs lead for my distance bullets with my sling.
D and d dwarfs I think have that low center of gravity. I THINK that would mean top heavy weapons would have less recovery time. They just wouldn't be pulled off balance as much
The main thing I can think of that I'd like out of a twin axe is that if my blade became embedded in my target, i'd be able to grab the beard of the side facing me and use it to lever the blade out of my target and raise my guard, so I could make ready to swing into them again (or their buddy, if they're going down). Big problem with axes is sticking. That could help you. Idk, I've never axe murdered anyone, but if I do use a twin axe to do it, i'll let y'all know what's up lol
A handle shaped blade with a less sharp and more angular edge would be perfect for the back of a fighting axe.
It's almost strange I've never seen that.
Shad: Axes are heavy
Skall:*yeets an axe*
You say YEET I say "CATCH THIS!"
@@ambuknight1567 PARRY THIS, FILTHY CASUAL!
@@TheBetterBleedingBladesRUclips if the front blade won't connect. The back one will LoL
@@ambuknight1567 And if you throw it just right, double damage or even triple is a possibility!
@@TheBetterBleedingBladesRUclips I agree. So SWING AND GET LUCKY LoL
"This one is quite sharp [touches blade]"
[jump cut]
My head canon is that you had a minor cut on yourself after touching the blade and needed to clean it up hence the jump cut lol
That would be pretty damn funny. I'm careful with sharp stuff though, so not what happened, sorry. :)
@@Skallagrim so why do you keep your tongue in a mouth? Is it not dangerous?
@@doggoisamongo8783 He should've licked the edge instead.
@@Skallagrim sounds exactly like someone who accidentally cut themselves would say
Isn't the jump cut a cut by itself?
He really cut himself out
I imagine the practicality of a double axe is entirely based on a niche, and is also tied into why they aren't so common yet still existed.
For one I can see it being a fabulous peasant killing weapon, where the goal is to just have as much edge to inflict damage on soft targets as possible.
For two I can see them being more carried around by bulky, and overtly brutish individuals, as I am sure a few existed that would play into that fantasy trope in real life, and were likely either damage their blades by just hitting people in armor too hard and needed a second, or would just flail with enough strength that even the tiniest backstroke with the other blade of the axe would be lethal.
Would it be stupid for the average soldier to use one? Absolutely. Could some people that are built a certain way get more use out of it? Also absolutely. It would be, funny enough, somewhat in the same vein as British longbow and its absurd draw strength resulting in deformed individuals.
Did they really deform mfs
1) that's called a sword (peasant killing specialist weapon)
2) hmm, dubious; even if i sort of agree here, i will hold to the key point that almost zero of the double-bit axes had the exact same mirrored head on either side. I know this point is arguable, but i doubt anything beyond ceremonial was perfectly mirrored.
I figured that they were used either, as a construction tool for siege weapons, a multi-tool/weapon for woodsman that needed to cut trees, or a weapon with easier use.
It is hard to swing an axe in-line without any practice because the front head wants to turn itself to the back.
So the back head will act as a fin and counterweight simultaneously, counteracting that effect perfectly.
Or I suppose there's more complex techniques you can use with a doublehanded axe because you can twist the handle, to copy some sword techniques. Like the common "twist it over the head" thing I've seen done a lot with 2handed swords.
Raising a petition for Skall and Shad (who is in Canada) to meet and do some sparring in order to solve the double axe matter hahaha
Once both are old and at the end of their life, they meet for a duel to the death at dawn. Who will win will depend on how fast Skallagrim can unscrew a pommel at that age.
Sadly I think skall is in Canada while shad is in Australia... maybe have them fight via hellish quart?
@@JasonSpeaks from what I saw on Shad's channel, he is spending some time in Canada to help shooting the short film from his book. It is the perfect opportunity :)
Bonus points if they spar with swords instead of axes to decide the issue about axes.
@@marcosviniciuspereiramarin342 Yeah but WHERE in Canada is Shad going. Canada is the second largest country on Earth. They could end up being 2,000 miles away.
Just to weigh in early:
A second axe bit would probably be a comparable amount of metal to the beaks or hammers you see opposite the bit on a lot of poleaxes, given how much flatter it would be, so a double bit axe wouldn't necessarily be drastically heavy unless the bits are oversized in the first place.
Shoot, I remember Matt even mentioning this in an older video of his on the subject, but it's been long enough that I'd have to dig it up again and might not remember his points exactly.
(Edit: Here it is ruclips.net/video/WDwsDn6M-pU/видео.html )
The main problem I see with the concept is that you are trading the extra utility of that beak or hammer for another of what you already have, meaning you're sacrificing versatility for not much in return save for the aesthetically pleasing symmetry.
The rule of cool shall always be first
While it is true that it does sacrifice much versatility, I would not say it does so for "not much in return". You are forgetting that a double bitted axe increases the longevity of the axe, and it balances the weapon at the center of axis. Matt himself brings this up in the video you linked.
@@xxfalconarasxx5659 It depends for the use I suppose but generally I don't think an axe sees enough combat without being repaired to really justify weighing the weapon down just to have the same thing. It's usually not like movies where someone is hacking down enemies left and right for hours without going down. Against armor it could damage the axe overtime I'm sure but that feels all the more reason to have a spike or hammer instead of another blade.
I mean, if the extra blade adds weight, that would mean that the strikes themselves would have more weight to them right?
@@commanderblargh6300 Hmm could be. I don't feel I know enough to confidently say it will help as much. If you have the center line of gravity, some angles it may hold the swing back from it's forward momentum? If it's more upright. Either way, even if the weight helps, versatility is more useful than the same blade and they can weigh the same.
Your backgrounds and music really blew me away. Very great! And your ideas are informative.
double axe as a tool makes sense. You may want that extra bulk, and its easier to sharpen an axe at home, than in forest, so having 2 axe heads to forest makes sense.
I need you to justify my D&D Barbarian’s life choices.
Barbarian strong. Barbarian many times stronger than normal human. Axe weight only adds power. Simple enough. Double headed axe, double the weight, more striking power. It's easy to handle for a superhuman.
@@Anegor
Fantasy Barbarian can use their double Axe as targe against incoming arrows. You can't do that with a Sword (to thin) , except you are Xena or Wonderwomen.
One adamantine head, one silver head, cold iron spike at one end (hell, might as well make it a bayonet and shove a musket in the middle). Easy. Depending on the game system it may even have some mechanical advantages (quick switching between damage types, cheaper than enchanting 2 weapons, etc.).
Also while a normal human isn't going to blunt an axe in a single fight, someone fighting treants or golems might have some issues and your typical adventurer is going to do a whole lot more fighting in a single day than anyone would historically.
If you name him Ghenghiz Cohen, he doesn't need anyone to justify his life choices, and he will surely prove to be very skilled at not dying and live to an impressive age for a barbarian.
if there is 1 person that could make a perfect way to carry a double bitted axe on the back it would be Shad. he is the king of the back carry after all.
He already did a few years ago, draws it one handed and everything lol kinda like how he now secures his bow now
@@topogigio7031 The Australian Aborigines used to hang their axes from a string belt, with the head nicely settled in to the small of the back. I've tried it with work tools. It's comfortable, especially when you are bending, twisting and squatting, and it's really easy to get out and ready. Nowadays, you get a few funny looks from strangers, though.
Yes! My favorite nerdy (non)feud continues! Love seeing you guys interact.
I love this rivalry.
Honest and good spirited. A true rarity online.
The Minoans weren't actually "earlier greeks", but they were the culture that (most likely) inspired the myth of the minotaur, with their huge maze-like palaces and their bull worshipping rituals.
So yes, having minotaurs use double bitted axes is pretty on point!
Those ungrateful Mycenaeans... the Minoans had _one_ rough century and they just _had_ to come in and ruin everything. It's like they forgot that the Minoans are responsible for inspiring their entire culture! They were good neighbors!
Yeah, he totally botched that part. Nordics!
@@anthonylamonica8301 - Yeah, Theseus, who was actually the legendary lawgiver of Athens (before Solon replaced him), and thus not strictly Mycenaean but certainly Bronze Age Greek (if real in any way), was all kinds of ungrateful: he was saved by Ariadna and then he dumped her on some random island. Go figure!
@@anthonylamonica8301 Well that IS the perfect time to cause trouble. So many civilizations were toppled just for a rough decade or two.
I never realized how much these guys contrasted. At the back of my mind, they were pretty much both just "sword guys" but now I really appreciate hoe different their backgrounds must be.
Two different axe-edges for two different armor types? One head for each purpose? I LOVE IT.
EDIT: And a spike on the top for full effect! A thin, sharp edge for soft armor, a spike for chainmail, and a thick, heavy edge for shields or plate! Or just a hammer.
Guys, I think I solved Medieval combat.
My DnD artificer thanks you
@@diegorassetto He's describing a halberd lol
@@rugerredhawk9065 and I was being humorous
@@diegorassetto Maybe work on that
@@rugerredhawk9065 maybe, just maybe, fuck off
Interesting video again 👍. I could imagine the dual axe/ twin axe being used as tool edge on one side and combat edge on the other, this could make it useful in siege situations.
My grandfather, who was a timberjack in Maine, owned a couple of double-bitted axes. One was a felling axe on one side and a splitting maul on the other, and the other was just two felling axe heads that you could switch between when one got dull.
Yes, double axes are useful as tools. Not so much as combat axes.
@@switchgear100 yeah. Especially if those bronze axes were coming into contact with similarly hard body armor
@@BelleDividends : If ya got one axe, ya got ut ya got.
@@BelleDividends Double axes did also exist as weapons. Check the video Matt (scholagladiatoria) has on the subject.
@@BelleDividends It's more than just having an extra blade ready, a double axe is much better balanced and easier to wield. Though it may be a bit counterintuitive, even though they tend to be heavier, they tend to be less tiring to swing because of their superior balance, at least that's my experience from cutting wood. I've, unsurprisingly, never actually taken an axe into battle, but if I did I'd at least want one that's properly balanced, if not a double bitted axe then one with a hammer or spike on the other end, carefully crafted to maintain balance along the axis of the handle. I imagine such an axe would be considerably less tiring to wield for hours on end than something like the Dane axe with a single blade.
0:02 Didn't think I'd live to see the day of Shad complaining of adding stuff to the _back._ (' -.-)
Not a fan of junk in the trunk shad?
Forging a double axe eye or socket you could either forge two blades and weld them together (same as the process as the single, only without the 180 degree fold) or you can forge a blade on either end of a bar and then split it open in the middle (which is how double-bitted felling axes were commonly made).
When you look at axe-like tools in general you find that different bits on each side is the most common. Outside of Minecraft a "pickaxe" has a pick on one side and an axe on the other. There's also the "mattax" or "madox" which is a mattock on one side and an axe on the other. Even a straight up pick which has the spiky end on both sides generally has one side as a thin, pointy pick and the other end as a slightly wider chisel point. The spike for really hard spots and the chisel for when it's soft enough to move more at a time. You only really find two of the same in cases where you're expecting to wear one or more of them out between maintenance periods.
My favorite axe would be my war axe from Grimfrost(also has 'Grimfrost' stamped in runes, into the blade-beautiful). It has a carbon steel head, bronze neck wrap, 33 inch ash wood haft. Exact copy of a war axe dated to around 900 C.E. found in Fole on the island of Gotland, Sweden.
One thing I could think of in a fantasy setting, where we typically see axes like this, is that the different blades could each have their own enchantments. One could have a fire enchantment, and the other could have ice for example.
Actually, why isn't this done more?
I had a very similar thought actually. Make a character that has a personal vendetta against, I dunno, some group of people ("assassins killed my parents" or something) and then give them a double axe. One side is for regular fighting, and the other is enchanted with some sort of a pain hex, only to be used against the objects of the vendetta. Symbolic, epic, and delightfully edgy!
Maybe because you put the enchantment on the whole weapon, instead of a part of it (also, while it is called double axe, you often see the two blades made from the same piece of metal).
Imagine, if you have two opposing spells on a double axe, if you are unlucky with your magic system, then they might cause arcane distortions at the center, where they meet, and weaken the axehead as a whole, causing it to shatter easily, or even rip it apart without the need of additional forces :)
@@Suthriel I know you can come up with reasons for why they don't, but you can just as easily come up reasons for why they can.
Probably because a lot of people just copy fantasy tropes just because someone had success with it or because they find it cool, without really thinking about it
@@TheHornedKing As long as it´s consistent in itself, you can build your magic system to allow to basically do everything ^.^ It would allow pretty OP things, can probably be exploited too, if you are not careful with the rules/laws of your magic system, but i guess, that´s part of the fun :) Personally, i am interested in the potential sideeffects, that could happen with multiple (opposing) spells forced on the same weapon etc.
The important thing about the double axe is that it looks cool and when you don't have to consider things like the laws of physics and how human bodies are able to move you can animate cool fight sequences with a double axe.
Plus a minotaur doesn't care about the extra weight, look how ripped those chads are.
Two sided are great throwers n tools / weapons.
If you're tool is to heavy get down the Gym or use one the right size for you
Don't know why he didn't mention this
N large dosent mean heavy
You can get large thin war axes
And much smaller thicker ones heavier lol
Rule of Cool > Physics & Physiology
The Minotaur very much does care - he wants a weapon that weighs the right amount for his physique. So he probably wants a giant axe with a blade and a hammer that has a moment of inertia such that it takes 2 or 3 times the strength of a human, the point being that now when it hits his target it’s just that much more force. A Minotaur would not want a human-scale weapon anymore than a warrior would want a toddlers “my-first-weapon”.
@@TysonJensen total war warhammer minotaurs are a good example lol
@@SRosenberg203 you just described WH40K
Omg the heroes of m&m reference is the last thing i expected!!! Great intro!
You blew my mind with the whole "a different axe head on each side" comment. I don't know why I never considered that, I just assumed the axes would be identical. But it seems like an amazing idea to make the sides different.
It would even be possible to make it appear symmetrical with the axe heads looking identical, but there is a different edge or different taper that you can only notice up close.
I find it amazing how I never once thought there might be a difference between the two axe heads, but yet it is such a simple and great idea. I love it!
You can stop watching after 1:15. The Heroes III argument pretty much wrecks everything the other side could muster, there is no coming back from that. Minotaur Kings are bae
Looks like Shad is about to get Labrys Striked because one of his squire cast Agi on Skallnotaur
It would be even better if he did it with a "Viking" horned helmet!
You want to do that one again, this time in English?
I wonder how many people would get the reference
@@jonathanwells223 the SMT or Persona series RPG reference
one of them is a spin off so it could be either basically shad cast fire on something that reflects fire or absorbs or nullifies something like that
All hail the Axekith of the house of Lahar
Thanks for the video Skallagrim! Love the humour.
Just one question: judging by your looks, have you become a fan of Christopher Lee?
You are very good. I teach a course in ancient technology (I’m an archaeologist) and I’d very much like to use some of your videos in my class.
I was hoping someone would do a response like this. Shad is usually very agreeable, but in the double axe video he just seemed angry at the weapon. I commented on that video that people do not always choose the best possible weapons. Often they just choose something they like or think looks cool.
And a lot of people like symmetrical things.
He does not know anything about it, but it sees lots of use so he fears it. He hates that what he fears.
@@vksasdgaming9472 Kinda like his irrational hatred of leather and studded leather armors. They are usually low tier armor you would start out with before moving up.
Who hurt you, Shad? Was it Chiv 2? I think it was Chiv 2...
@@quinnalexander3825 what is Chiv 2?
@@aaronhaggard7683 I can see that, a farmer that has been conscripted to got to war doesn't have Lot of money but does have some leather an maybe straw or wool so he goes to sombody to make him cheap armpur that will mostly protect him.
12:27
"You see those warriors from Hammerfell?? They have curved swords. CURVED SWORDS!!"
-Guard
Very well made video.. you have a very nice sense of confidence and the tricks you do helps separate you from others who don’t quite have your spirit.
Just came to say ive been subscribed for years now and this is the first actual video from you ive seen on my home feed in about 3 or 4 months. Im not liking how the algorithm is going right now.
Double axes are still commonly used as tools right here in Michigan. I have multiple old antique double bit axes that were used in logging. They were favored here as they have more weight therefore more leverage and impact force, and you have two bits so you just switch to the other side while working and re-sharpen later. Sadly they are starting to disappear today replaced in every big box chain store by poly handled Chinese steel budget axes, they work alright, but don't have the charm of a hickory double bit plumb axe.
They are still used very true, use em too..
And war axes can be huge just thin like a sword. Dosent mean heavy
So glad you touched on the double bit axes having two different kinds of edges for felling. Some are identical, some not. Nessmuk (George Sears) wrote about using a small double bit hand axe with an edge for soft wood and an edge for hard ones. Some daggers had different edges as well for utility purposes.
I shall have completed another Solar orbit the 16 October.
In total 45 go-arounds
I have since I saw your review of LK Chen Magnificent Chu Jian blade
been scrimping and saving towards purchasing this weapon as a gift to myself,,
It admirably suits my esthetic, build and temperament*
So many times thnx for your review. and all the effort ,enthusiasm and hard work you put in it
I've just started the video, but my honest initial thought is that I'd rather have a hammer head, or a hook of some sort on the other end. But I'm pretty partial to the halberd myself so make of that what you will
Never thought I'd actually hear a medieval weapon channel basically say "metal not always brick. Metal thin, metal thick, metal shapeable" it just sounds like s physicist say "apple fall to ground 'cause gravity round earth"
So in the end, having a double-bladed axe is LITERALLY a double-edged sword... how ironically fitting.
Neat video, great points.
Thing I don't like and that gets skimmed over too often is a take like "This is a dumb weapon because there are better ones". Most weapons have their purposes and which you prefer, if you have access to variety, depends on who or what you intend to fight.
We're not talking nunchuck-level here; which is not even a proper weapon, but an improvised weapon from a farming tool to flail the grain out of wheat - like most flails originally.
The fact that these two youtubers respect eachother so much is great
I did not expect the Heroes3 argument, but that alone convinced me. Double the axe, double the fun
Skall: "You need to rel-AXE"
That's it, I'm clicking off from the video.
Btw, I am very happy the Igorot Headhunter Axe is doing well, really loving the makeshift sheath.
lol great intro
I've some middling experience in smithing, for double bladed axes or tools it'd likely be more of punching and drifting the eye into shape. Welding wise, balancing and moving the work out of the way would likely take more time and prone to flaws such as cracking, thinning, or uneven geometry. Not to mention the cuts with a whole other set of worms. Loved the video.
You missed out one of the best features..the wedge. Axes are the best entry tool, put that spike on the back and no door hinge is safe.
To the algorithm, this is the first video of yours that actually notified me in a while. I like your point about balance being the key here!
I hope this video performs well
I like how the HEMA/old weapons youtubers interqacts and makes videos realting to one another on certain subjects like the double head axe. Keep being awesome!
You’re forgetting the most important reason to have a double headed axe- *a backup blade once you’ve slain dozens and dozens of enemies and blunted the other side*
No, he didnt forget that.
Still pretty heavy though.
the likelyhood of anyone especially someone like you slaying dozens and dozens of enemies are quite extremely low now arent they. if you willingly went to battle i would be very surprized if you even managed to injure a single combatant.
@@fjalarhenriksson you dont know this person so why make assumtions. Sure its unlikely for anyone to take out dosens of foes but you cant say anything about them specifically
@@madeofgrease9220Then workout.
16:00 I love this effect when green screen reflects in in axes blade and background is rendered on top of it.
Stuff like these interactions between you two, and other like minded, educated creators is imo the best thing about YT. We get a deeper, finer edge of education on topics we like when we see comparison, contrasts and corrections.
Keep it up!
More like you see Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
@@vksasdgaming9472 Why Dunning Kruger? Skall said specifically he agreed with almost everything Shad had to say and was picking real, but more rarer examples which went against Shads thesis.
Thats not Dunning Kruger. Shad made largely correct claims. Skall added correct missing context.
@@shkotayd9749 He massively overestimates his knowledge and competence. That is Dunning-Kruger effect in action and the less someone knows the more likely they are to fall for it. Never bothered to find out why something is already in use and as he doesn't understand the reason, he assumes they are just stupid for having a proven solution for a problem he does not see existing. In practical use it is so much more convenient to just flip your axe around when you need the other end than seek for new tool optimized to do that.
@@vksasdgaming9472 You'd have to prove he massively overestimates his knowledge and competence.
Hes a HEMA guy, which means he already knows FAR more than I do. I'd cut my own damn head off if someone gave me a sword lol. And going by your vids, you look to be a fairly average gamer like me.
So, hit him with a video man. Skall has proven his mettle in HEMA and he cites his sources for videos too, and so does Shad. but can I really judge either?
Sure. But I have zero credibility to do so lol.
One can accuse of Dunning-Kruger best when they can demonstrate a certified competence in a thing, showing where someone is considerably overestimating their competence in thing.
@@shkotayd9749 Shitiversity never cites any sources and has not shown any competence above anyone swinging whatever he is swinging. How can "expert" ignore fact that firefighters and lumberjacks use double axes? Skall is different story.
Love the back and forth banter between yourself and Shad Skall. Love the content, the effort that both you put in to your videos. Keep it up lads. (Skall, I had a freakish vision when you spin the single handed axe of you trimming your beard. Phew close call bruv)
Wow cool video. The final axe you showcased for us, im looking into purchasing that, and hanging it in my bedroom.
Your content is so much more enjoyable now. Awhile ago it was kinda cringey but you’ve improved alot
My sole argument to defend the double blade axe is just like double bladed sword. some techniques can be used for faster with double bladed weapons & it will have more striking edges, hence more striking edge. I am very sure just like what Skall pointed out, even some polearm have double axe-like parts
Another issue is balance, having two equally sized objects with the same mass would make a weapon that is easier to handle quickly. I have experienced axes with spikes that like to wobble when moved around quickly. If I remember correctly small double bit axes intended for combat did in-fact exist historically, in China and India. The Chinese examples I have seen form a almost perfect circle ( ) blocked only by the shaft. This design too allows for a very effective forward weighted cutting instrument that cuts both on forward strikes and backhand strikes equally well, and because of its circular shape it cuts through targets rather than digging into them like more typical wedge > shaped axes.
@@-Zevin- on, that's interesting, would the chineese axes be better at slicing thrusts as well since the heads are rounded at the top? So swing and a back hand draw cut on its way back?
@@kyle18934 I imagine so yes, although I have seen examples with a top spike too. Although I by no means am an expert. I have only seen a few on vacation while traveling in China. In-fact I think I have seen something similar in Thailand or Cambodia in a museum as well, but I can't remember where, it was more than a decade ago.
My thoughts as well, especially if they used it as double handed weapon for wild swings forth and back (with a carefully trained technique hopefully).
@@-Zevin- There's also the Indian processional axe shown in this video. It's something I've wondered about, and also in part wrt the general straight vs curved blade debate. Or cutting vs chopping. From my own experiments, a balanced axe, whether single or double bladed just feels more agile when the mass is equal either side of the haft. But now this has also got me thinking about straight hafts vs curved/shaped ones, and if curved haft helps compensate for the blade being 'off-balance'. And I'm thinking aesthetics may have played a part with a circle form looking good. Downside I guess to going too curved or exotics is it'll make sharpening and maintaining it harder. And I guess with double-bitted axes, keeping an even rotation in which blade is used so one doesn't wear down faster than the other.. :p
I think I remember telling Shad this when he made that video, but yeah, the second blade acts as a weight, so it isn't doing nothing. It's nearly doubling the inertia of the axe head, and of course it's solidly attached. There's no shock absorber or spring in between them.
It's usually better to concentrate the metal into one blade, but an extra blade is worth it's weight in, well, weight, certainly. And there might be some sort of techniques you could use with a double-bladed axe that you couldn't use with a single-bladed one.
Dayumm channeling that Rob Zombie effect well my blade brother..lookin good....
Great points, and I actually relate with the throwing point. When Chivalry 2 dropped and there were 2 different types of double-bits, I was like 'really'?' Then I found you can throw EVERYTHING- I was more like 'reeeaaalllly! :D' And now use Frankish tactics with them- I might swat close foes with it, but if I have the distance to switch weapons I'll hurl it as a 'great throwing axe' to finish with my 'secondary' weapon/s- then pick the beasty back up to huck it again.
This vid could end at the Minotaur King argument as it is absolute, unquestionable and has no possible counter.
"Just ... rel-AXE" had me reaching for the Like button 25 second in. I enjoy the even discussion of both pros and cons. Looking forward to part 2. (Of course there's a part 2 about double bladed axes ...)
It's good to see the Igarot ax again. Intimidating little design as you've proven before.
Hey Skallagrim might I make a suggestion for what medieval weapons would a fantasy race use: the race in question is the skaven. Here is a run through of physical states of an average skaven vs average human.
Height: skaven due to hunched over posture stand shorter than a human, but if they stood up as high as they could would be only by a bit.
Strength: an average skaven has less muscle mass than a human so a human on average is stronger.
Speed: a skaven tends to be faster than a human, and that applies to moving around the field in addition to speeds they can move their limbs at.
If you want other details just ask
Skaven use no weapons because there are more of them to be thrown at whatever Grey Seer wants to see suffocating under Skaven corpses.
@@vksasdgaming9472 that is definitely part of it, but just curious to see how close gw came to what melee and ranged weapons would the skaven have used if clan skyre wasn't a thing.
Short answer, yes, long answer the extra weight on the back will put the balance in the middle, making it want to land flat. However used with both hands would minimize this.
Not very long
Having used double bitted axes for tree felling I found they cut much better due to the slightly higher weight. However you do have to be careful about how far back (near your own back) you swing.
The shape of the handle helps a great deal. A flatter handle will keep it from turning as opposed to a round handle
I love when you guys teach eachother new things. I think debates like this make the whole community stronger.
Lol I love that thumbnail, never knew I needed skallotaur in my life but here we are.
Lmao the Heroes of Might and magic bit, good taste dude
Wow, this was really good, the arguments are well thought out and realistic. I'm really looking forward to part 2!
14:16 speaking about how you carry an axe, I always just assumed you’d just shoulder the axe kinda like what you see illustrations of Landsknechts do with zweihanders.
Depends on handle length but for a short handle I'd hang it from the belt with a strip, blade atop, preferable protected by a leather cover so I don't accidentally cut myself.
Shad himself investigated the validity of carrying an axe on your back, God of war (2018) style. Small enough double-axe should work, don’t wanna cut your shoulder blades.
Even up today, modern axes are still awkward to carry around especially when camping solo with only one pack. In all fairness, axes can be inconvenient to carry but ultimately needed when collecting wood for a good fire pit.
I know very little about axe use in combat, but having done a lot of woodcutting with both single and double bit axes I much prefer the cutting ability and balance of the double.
Singles weigh about the same but have poor balance. I always got a lot more bad strikes and hence poor cuts with a single which is harder to keep aligned correctly. I think combat could have similar issues so a double might give you more precise strikes and a better cut.
Also your point about having a heavier or duller blade on one side for tougher targets to avoid blade damage to the sharper side is also valid in my woodcutting experience. I do that exact thing on hard spots that are guaranteed to dull a sharp blade and when sharpness makes less difference and is more about sufficient power. Maybe something like hitting hard armor that you can dent but can’t cut vs softer armor that can be cut with less effort. Also having the ability to just flip the axe around if you suffer damage on one side is a lot faster than grabbing another axe or having to resharpen sooner. I can see that as advantage in combat as well.
No idea if it’s relevant to combat axes but there’s my two bits. Always enjoy your videos.
YES!!! my two favourite weapon / medieval / fantasy youtubers at it again!!
When Skall and Shad go in on a subject we ALL learn something
When the two smartest kids in the class have different answers
Nerd fights are the best
And truth is still binary: one is right and other is wrong and Shitiversity has proven himself at being very bad and very regular at being wrong.
What I got from this vid is that Dane axe at 3:00 is as tall as me looking at the top of the axe head being about level with Skallagrim's shoulders (that's where I came up to when I was lucky enough to meet Skallagrim at Hal-con a few years back).
The igorot axe is my favorite design for an axe so far. I enjoy you talking about them!
The second I saw the title of Shad's video I knew he was going to get himself in trouble 😅 Nice to see Skall being reliable and making a follow up 😄
Third time's the charm: three magnificent displays of idiocy with two of them with rapid succession is very good way to kill your reliability as source. There may be more displays of idiocy.
I always associate double bitted Axes with Fantasy Dwarves. But Recently I've been loving the idea of a "War-Pickaxe" for a Dwarf who is both a Miner and a Warrior.
And honestly given how many Fantasy worlds have strong Mining elements in their Dwarvern cultures. It makes sense that Dwarves would use a weapon like that.
Don't forget warhammers; because they're also typically portrayed as incredible smiths.
@Forest-walker I know. I'm not talking about improvised tools as weapons though, I'm talking about weapons forged to be weapons based on those tools, but altered for combat.
Like the Billhook, Warscythe, Kasurigama and Flail. Weapons that have had their farming tool designs adapted to be better weapons.
I also picture it being fancier. Like how some War-Hammers were works of art, but still very practical and effective weapons. Applying all that to a War-Pickaxe.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop the warpick *is* a historical weapon, but if I'm being completely honest, I'd call a double spiked warpick a war *anchor* , as even if that's not how it'd *function* , having two spikes would certainly make it *look* like an anchor.
@@ezrafaulk3076 I know it is. But a Warpick is just a War-Hammer by a different name.
I'd also be more inclined to call something with two Pick heads a Double Pick, same as the tool with two Pick heads. A weaponised one would more likely be called a Double Warpick. If not, just Double Pick.
But a Pickaxe isn't two picks. Its a Pick on one side and a sort of Adze Axe on the other side, hence the name PickAxe. Because its a Pick and an Axe.
@@RainMakeR_Workshop I know this, but I was referring to your proposed double spiked warpick; I'd call that a war anchor because that's kinda what it'd look like to me.
Also, there *is* in fact a big design difference between the warhammer and warpick; that difference being that with a warpick, the spike's the *main* striking implement, which's why it's so much more prominent than it is on a warhammer.
Love your castlevania background.
"Hey I found a way to add wieght to the bite and give you a backup weapon if something happens to your axe head."
Sweet.